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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Travis (00:01.934)
Welcome to another episode of the Foster Friendly Podcast. Today we are talking to a couple from Georgia who became an instant family of six in 2020. They said yes to a sibling group of four who they adopted from foster care and their lives will be changed forever and their sleeping patterns. I'm sure too. We'll hear more of their story and talk more in depth about the issue of siblings in foster care today. Jamie and Adriana Howard have been together since 2005. They were high school sweethearts who live just north of Atlanta.
Courtney (00:22.807)
Jamie and Adriana Howard have been together since 2005. They were high schooler two -parts who lived just north of Atlanta and have their four kids and two dogs. They were two -parts for almost 10 years before jumping in the parents' team to be a foster care and then had options. And then after two years of fostering, they adopted their four kids, and it's a live, fun experience, and are learning every day over the next six months to be a parent. Jamie is the who? You say D -O -L, who?
Travis (00:30.094)
and have their four kids and two dogs. They were youth pastors for almost 10 years before jumping into parenting via foster care and then adoption. And then after two years of fostering, they adopted their four kids in July of 2022 and are learning every day what it means for the six of them to be a family. Jamie is the coup. Do you say COO coup? Am I doing that? How do you say that? Cool. OK, thought so.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (00:50.538)
It's cool.
Courtney (00:52.791)
Welcome.
Travis (00:57.102)
of Slingshot, a swag management company. Adriana is the community engagement manager for Georgia Kids Belong. So it was one of our colleagues. Welcome to the podcast guys. Great to have you.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (01:09.466)
Thanks so much for having us. Thank you for having us.
Courtney (01:13.399)
Yeah, so just tell us a little about your adoption journey. Take us into that story, set the stage for us. Had you been considering adoption for a long time or how did that come about?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (01:25.37)
So, yes and no. I would say as far as adoption goes, I mean as far as our preliminary dating conversations, adoption was a part of our plans, but it did not happen in the way that we anticipated, as these things often do. And so, now that we get, you know, hindsight's always 20 -20, we look back on it now, we're like, it was exactly what it needed to be in the time that it needed to happen.
with the kids it needed to happen with. And also it was nothing like we had anticipated. And so, yeah, we initially set out, you know, we were doing Fasters for 10 years and we were kind of young when we were doing that. And so we felt like our parenting cup was kind of full, you know, we had our kids and we were really heavily involved with them. And so when it got to the point that we were feeling like, okay, I think it's time for us to like, you know, actually be like legitimate legal parents.
Instead of just sort of like step in parents that we kind of felt like we were for a lot of years, which was wonderful. We love our kids, like our former youth group, so close to a lot of them. We found out pretty quickly that we couldn't have children biologically. And it kind of was like, okay, cool, actually. Like that, we mourned that and it was a bummer, but we also were like, we've been talking about adoption literally since like the first time we started dating. So let's just like.
that door shut, our door's open, let's just like go. And so it took a while to kind of fall into where we are now. We initially started off thinking like domestic infant, and it seems like, I guess you're supposed to start with a baby, that's like the natural course of things, I guess we'll do that. And then once we were all done with that whole process, we just kind of felt we were being tugged in a different direction, not like we're not baby people, but we just kind of felt we were being pulled towards something else. And so we...
Travis (03:07.182)
Ha ha.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (03:22.426)
started our whole home study process over again and jumped right back into foster care licensing instead and we're interested in like siblings and older kids. So again, like it's a yes and also kind of no. Like we always felt like adoption was gonna be part of our story, but we didn't know it was gonna look like how a lot of turning out.
Travis (03:41.39)
Hmm.
Wow. So what were some early thoughts when you started to see like, okay, this isn't what we thought. And there's a line, someone says, life is always at some turning point. You're clearly at a turning point. Just what were some of those early rumblings of, okay, we're still on track, but there's something.
Courtney (04:02.039)
going fast or something.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (04:06.298)
Yeah, absolutely. One of the big turning points for us was, like H. Ronan said, we started with the domestic infant adoption and didn't really know a lot about adoption, like the ins and outs of it. You know, you see so much in movies and things like that, you really don't get a great picture of what the reality is. We always laugh when you see a TV show where they're like, let's go get a baby. And like, you know, 24 hours later, they're like, my gosh, we're meeting our child for the first time. Just nonsense like that. And,
And so we were on the list to, you know, we had to go through all these trainings and stuff just to have, be on a list to be available as a home for a domestic infant. And we got an update from the adoption agency saying, yeah, here's how many children were replaced and, you know, here's how many families are waiting. And it was kind of this like, that's, there's like tons and tons and tons of families waiting for a baby.
And Adriana wrote me we kind of this moment. We're like do we continue down this path or do we Go find a different agency or what and so Adriana wrote me this letter just to put her thoughts down and just said I feel like we had some other kind of markers in our journey that made us feel very drawn to Kids from really hard places and stuff like that. We had done work with kids from inner city, you know underprivileged kids and stuff like that. I
And she said, I feel like it just looks more like Jesus for us to maybe consider doing foster adoption. Cause you have all these families who are waiting for a baby, where in the foster care system, you have all these kids who are waiting for a family. And it's the complete opposite. And so I read that letter and I said, you know what, that sounds like wisdom to me. And the very next day we canceled our adoption. We, you know, let them just keep the money. Cause you're like, okay, well, I guess that's a donation to the cause.
Travis (05:31.63)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (05:45.102)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (06:01.402)
And then we just immediately switched and called defacts and got, you know, start moving down that pathway. And, you know, it was definitely a turning point where we, we, you know, you don't know what you're really getting into. And, you know, I still don't know if we really know what we're getting into, but, you know, you, you get on that path and you just kind of walk through the doors that open up to you. And that, that was a really defining moment where we said, this is what our family should feel like. And it immediately felt like peace. You know, we, we didn't.
Travis (06:16.622)
Yeah.
Travis (06:28.142)
Mmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (06:30.81)
obviously know what we were getting into and all the ins and outs ended up telling, you know, defects. We would take one to four kids, which little tip out there, if you say that, they will give you four children. So, we immediately signed up and started moving forward with that. It wasn't much longer that we, you know, kind of went on the path, but that was definitely a turning point for us, yeah.
Travis (06:41.134)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Courtney (06:43.479)
Yeah.
Courtney (06:54.263)
I love it. It's definitely, I don't know what it's like in Georgia, but here they're often not even licensing families that will just say we're only open to babies or birth to age five, because the need is much greater for sibling groups or older kids. So I'm curious, I don't even know what age were your kids and what age are they now?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (07:02.682)
See you next week.
Travis (07:06.286)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (07:12.762)
So when we first, so our kids were our only match. I'll correct it, we didn't say one to four, we said two to four. yeah, sure, two to four. Because we weren't interested in just one. And, get it right. And so, which George is very similar. I can't recall how things were five years ago when we started, but currently, I mean, they're not recruiting for families that are really only interested in babies.
Travis (07:27.694)
Get her.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (07:41.338)
for obvious reasons. And so when we first met our kids, they were our very first match. They were five, six, seven, eight. We met them on Zoom. Everybody was in lockdown. Yeah, it was still the middle of 2020. COVID had just started a couple of months prior. And so we did all of our initial meetings with them via Zoom, which was just a hot mess. But we also were able to record all those. And so it is kind of a bizarre context. But we still have a lot of time.
Travis (07:54.766)
Hmm.
Travis (08:02.766)
Ha ha.
Travis (08:06.702)
Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (08:09.146)
those recordings of like the very first time we met our kids which is like a weird thing to be able to have it's really beautiful but they yeah they were five six seven and eight and now we're about to have birthdays in the next two weeks so we will have a nine ten eleven and twelve
So...
Travis (08:26.054)
I love to, you know, it's often you hear in stories how, you know, some catalyst of whatever the inspiration is that gets you into the journey, something changes maybe on the journey. But so I love what you said, Jamie, too, of like how that did pivot and change and really that beautiful sort of convicting thought of, you know, who's actually waiting and maybe let's reorient around the needs of the kids waiting. I know that was a,
early kind of mantra for America's kids with Brian Mavis as the co -founder of Let's Change You Weights. So I love that line from that. So yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (09:04.246)
Yeah. Well, it's just very cool too. Like I said, we look back on it now and we can see with like perfect clarity how everything fell into line the way that it was supposed to. And not to say everything's been like wonderful, but like it certainly has been intentional. And, you know, our background without knowing it, our background was really creating us to be the kind of people who could meet the needs of our kids, you know?
And so it really is just like wonderful to see that like no pain was wasted. No hard days went without, you know, kind of being vindicated. We both came from really broken homes in ways that are, we have a lot of similarities to our kids' stories, you know, and they're young, they don't even understand kind of all the nuances of that just yet. But it's really cool to be able to have our own backgrounds be something that can.
function is almost a mirror of sorts with our kids. Like we can empathize beyond just like, I read a book that said trauma is hard. I'm so sorry that it happened to you. You know, it's like we get those things too. And even like with our youth ministry experience, our kids were all, you know, we had a lot of kids that came from really hard places too. So it was just kind of like we were those kids and we, you know, we worked with those kids and then now we're living with those kids. And so it's, there's like this really awesome.
hard through line that's been consistent. And so it's like, I don't know if, you know, if the plan had been for us to like have biological children, sure, we would have like, we would have risen to the occasion, but it's like we were kind of meant for the kids that we have, you know, and in some ways it feels like we would have been wasted on kids that like had never known our thing, you know.
Travis (10:48.11)
Ha ha.
Courtney (10:51.831)
Hmm.
Travis (10:54.222)
That's really good. I, you know, the other thing that makes me think of too is that, when people think you make a really good point to that, I think a lot of us think at times, you know, I don't have what it takes. I don't have, you know, and we're going to get more into that. You'll talk more about that. But that sense too, of what you're saying is so much of the background of our lives and maybe it's even our own childhoods that, that do empower us and grow us in ways. Maybe we don't realize how helpful that is about to be.
Courtney (10:56.567)
I don't have what it takes. I don't have, you know, and we're going to get more into that. We'll talk more about that. But that's the sense too of what you're saying is, don't look at the background of our lives and maybe even our own childhoods that do empower us in the way we don't. Not like you guys are just saying, well, you didn't.
Travis (11:22.991)
You know, not like you guys are just saying, well, we didn't currently have kids, biological kids prior. You're looking and going, we were, we came from broken homes, but we also worked with kids from hard places as youth pastors and like seeing the preparatory ground that was as well. So I just love that you're kind of also highlighting.
Courtney (11:25.719)
currently have for kids. If I was a kid prior, you're looking and going, and you were the face of the economics, but we also go to a big, hard place and go to your path. So it might seem a preparatory around that work as well. But I just love that you kind of also highlighted that. Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (11:43.962)
Yeah, there's a real specific moment where we had just signed up and it was before he knew about our kids or whatever. And it was funny because as we went around and once we did find out about our kids, told our friends and family and stuff, everyone was very like sweet about it. Like, my gosh, that's so exciting. And you're just like, we had one friend who goes, what? Four kids? Why are you doing that? We laughed so hard because we're like, thank you for speaking, you know, honestly to this very naive thing that we're jumping into.
And we did, you know, I do appreciate that we had sort of like a holy naivete about the whole thing, because you don't really know what you're getting into. And I think if you were to, if we weren't able to see all the hardships that have happened since we brought our kids in, there may have been, you know, a discouragement to ever jump in, but that's the cool thing about it is that like every day, you know, it's like the, you know, our daily bread is provided and, and every single day, you know, just this week, we, our kids are waking up at.
you know, two o 'clock in the morning, keeping us up all night long because of possible issues that we don't know about with like, you know, not being able to sleep at night because of some kind of trauma thing or whatever. And you're exhausted and you're frustrated and you're tired and you're going through all that kind of stuff. And then you go to sleep and you wake up the next day and you're like, okay, let's just do it all over again because that's what being a parent is, right? And like, that's the beautiful thing about it is I have met people who have been interested in foster care and have said things like, you know, I don't know if I have it, what it takes or I don't know if I can do that or whatever. And like,
There's probably some truth that none of us really have what it takes, right? And that's probably true of any parent, like biological or otherwise. And there's the other part of it, like that, if you can be the person who shows up every day and like puts in the work and like just says, hey, I don't have to have every little piece figured out. We certainly didn't have every piece figured out. We still don't have every piece figured out. And, but there's just showing up and being there for your kids and kids who need it. And like, we have this moment before we got our kids where we said,
Courtney (13:29.911)
Hehehehe.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (13:38.778)
least we know because we had worked with students from the you know age of like 12 to the point now some of many of them actually have kids of their own and where we would say we know what it's like to Put in the long haul effort with these kids a lot of these mean meanest snakes Teenagers who ended up, you know Breaking our hearts and then mending our hearts and we love them to death and we still mentor We have so much fun with them now and we learned that like you
Travis (14:02.534)
haha
Jamie & Adriana Howard (14:07.226)
you grow over the long term, like you put in the work and eventually you see fruit from, like, you know, it's not gonna just, you know, be void, so to speak, so the fruit will be there eventually.
Travis (14:18.478)
Hmm.
Courtney (14:19.575)
Yeah, along those lines, Adriana, you once said something really powerful in another interview regarding the common fear of people feeling capable, just as you were just talking with Jamie. And what you said, Adriana, was you learn as much as you can. You learn on the way. You don't give up. You don't give up. You don't give up. If you're tenacious about it, you will become people that can handle it. That's your story. Your story. We become people who could be parent our kids.
Travis (14:36.302)
don't give up, you don't give up, you don't give up. If you're tenacious about it, you will become people that can handle it. That's your story. Your story. We become people who can compare to our kids. We did not start that way. So can you speak more into what Jamie was just talking about?
Courtney (14:48.695)
We did not start that way. So can you speak more into what Jamie was just talking about?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (14:54.234)
Yeah, I mean, we can't emphasize that enough. It is a process and this is not to like cast aspersions at all, non -judgmental to the nth degree of any other parents that we know. But I can speak for us and say that like we're four years in and we still are like very open with saying like, we don't know what we're doing, you know, like we kind of know some days and other days we're like, why are any of us here? Like it's still very confusing sometimes.
and so we are still constantly, he can attest to that. We're constantly like, let's try this thing out. Let's try this new thing. I read about this thing. Let's try to implement it. Let's like that thing that we tried to, you know, we're constantly trying to pivot and evolve and experiment and like, you know, I read about this thing. I heard about this thing. I think it could be effect, whatever, whatever. Like we're constantly trying to figure out what works. and so we're just open.
Travis (15:29.326)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (15:53.018)
Like as open as like a person can be to just like, I want to be better. I want to know more. I want to be more strategic. I want to like, just not give any place for like my own ignorance or like my own, like, I don't know, like bitterness to like creep in and keep me from being somebody who like wants to show up every day. That does not mean that there are days where we don't show up. Like there are certainly days where it's just like, you know, like you're.
Travis (16:03.182)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (16:20.89)
Yeah, you're spent like your humanity takes over but like goodness gracious like we just We we see so clearly I think probably because we've had this like ministry experience where we were Like we were very heavily involved in our kids, but we all we weren't their parents So we have we have the benefit of like the day is done now we get to go home but we can watch from afar and see like, you know what the effects are of for kids when
Travis (16:24.174)
Hmm.
Travis (16:32.046)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (16:50.426)
their adults don't show up consistently. And so we just, I don't know, it's like we're looking like 10 years down the road, you know, like we're constantly feeling that way. Like the, we feel very heavily like the weight of like our day to day, not because of like the day to day, but because of like 10 years down the road. Like I'm seeing down the road. And so that just really keeps us in this mindset of like, if we haven't figured it out yet, that is okay. We'll figure it out today. And if.
by the evening, we're like, we still haven't figured it out. We're gonna start again tomorrow. And it's just like, our kids are our youngest recently, she said to me, she said, Wow, mommy, you guys give us a lot of lessons. And there's a lot of life lessons. Number one, I'm so sorry. Number two, you are so welcome. And so they like poke fun at us. And we're always like, all right, new plan.
Travis (17:22.382)
Hmm.
Courtney (17:30.455)
Heheheheh
Travis (17:34.062)
lot of lessons.
huh. huh.
Travis (17:44.302)
Nah, huh.
No.
Courtney (17:48.151)
Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (17:48.826)
We've already been reaping the benefits of that. Our kids, they have their hangups like any human would who's gone through the kind of things they have gone through, but holy moly, are they so content and in so many ways so well adjusted and they're so present and they're so, I don't know, they're just.
like wired differently and I think they're just like down for the ride because that's kind of like our family's thing. It's like, we don't have to figure it out. They know we don't because we're super honest with them. Like we're just trying to figure it out too. So like they're figuring it out, we're figuring it out. And so they're very much down for just like, all right, we're trying something now, but let's just do it. Like, so it's just very much weird learning as we go.
Courtney (18:37.431)
I love that. I feel like I have to become an expert in so many different areas as a foster and adoptive mom. But also I find that sometimes you just need to get to know your kids, right? We don't need to read all these books to do this. They're helpful, but it's just being a detective and getting to know what does this kid need in this situation. But, you know, there still are some good books or resources. What do you guys find as far as, is there a book that you guys have really enjoyed as an adoptive couple or?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (18:47.638)
Okay.
Travis (18:50.318)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (18:54.606)
Hmm.
Courtney (19:03.927)
a support group or how do you guys find that support and that encouragement in the education?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (19:09.178)
Yeah, so I'm sure that most people are familiar if they're in this space at all with TBRI and that sort of thing. And that was a great foundation for us to give us scripts. I think they're one of the things that I think you're so powerful about having to go through foster care training and things like that that people who just have biological children would not understand is how helpful it is to have like a framework that you work from.
Travis (19:36.526)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (19:37.882)
You know, you don't have to stick in that same framework, but you start in a place. And it works honestly when we deal with other kids who are not from a foster care background or anything like that. You're just like, we've learned how to address physiological needs in a way because it's survival over here, because our kids are far less resilient than maybe someone else, but it's still helpful with every kid. And so I think finding a framework, whether that's like the whole brain child, like learning handles of like flip your lid or, you know,
talking about TBRI and having their scripts of like, who's the boss? And you know, are you asking me? Are you telling me? You know, like those sorts of things. And I think there's some really basic frameworks that are super helpful that you can start from. And then like you said, that you have to learn your kids. And I think something that I did not understand coming into this was how different four siblings could be.
Travis (20:10.894)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (20:32.218)
And you think you would know that intuitively, because I'm like, I have siblings, you know, we're very different, but it's just like, I think as a, I'm a programmer by trade and I think like, okay, here's the program that I will implement with my kids. And you're like, that doesn't work. Every, all four kids are totally different. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you know, I can't compute this thing. But they are, they are four totally different kids who do have to, you know, be dealt with differently. And Adriana has done a great job of like finding Facebook groups about.
Travis (20:33.006)
Hmm.
Travis (20:46.03)
Yeah, haha.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (21:00.858)
you know, ADD or about this particular diagnosis that one of our other kids has, or about like, parentification and like asking questions and talking to other people. and really, you know, trying to figure out the individual child. And, and another thing is too, that again, not intuitive coming into this is that we did not have our children when they were babies. And so we didn't get to go through preschool with them.
We didn't, you know, our youngest was in kindergarten when she started, but we didn't know how to be like school parents. And so we were like, how do you do things like engage with your teachers? So we would just ask the teachers like, please let us know. Are we asking enough questions? Are we not asking enough questions? You know, you know, Adrienne went to the doctor and was like, hey, all of our kids are sick all the time. Is that normal? She's like, you have four kids. One's going to be sick. You know, basically at all moments of every day, she's like, okay, cool. And just like playing, not being afraid to be kind of seen as stupid or something.
Travis (21:31.438)
Hmm.
Travis (21:36.686)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (21:59.322)
and just ask lots of questions because you're like, you don't know. And like we don't, we haven't had to go through all the same like little life checkpoints. And so we don't know about like, should we raise a flag about this? Should we not? And so, you know, I don't know if there's an exact, you know, there's lots of good books out there, like I said, but I think in terms of just like looking for resources, the big thing is, is asking questions of the, like build your little community, your little village and.
Travis (22:26.83)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (22:27.578)
And then there's a lot of like, is this a normal little boy thing? Is this a kid from a hard place thing? Is this a, you know, sibling thing? We've asked the teachers like, hey, our son's getting in trouble at school. Is this like normal for his class or whatever? She's like, this part's normal, that part's not normal. Let's work with that, you know? And really just lean into the people who are the experts.
Travis (22:50.702)
Well, back to the whole thing around siblings and how they're different and stuff. I think talking before to you one time, Jamie, you had this hilarious line. I don't know if you remember this about like when you went to the library and if you do the math, you, do you remember that? Can you say that again?
Courtney (22:54.263)
I think talking before you went by, you had this hilarious line, I don't remember this about, maybe it was a library, and if you use a map, do you remember that? Can you say that again?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (23:02.17)
Yeah, yeah Yeah, so you know it's funny because if you have one kid they can't fight with anybody I guess themselves, but two kids can only fight with each other three kids you have Kid one to fight with you two kids you can find the kid three three can fight with good one But the math on four children is you've now jumped the six possible fights and so it just exponentially grows from there you know It's like the math just comes out
Travis (23:27.854)
for Naturally Fights.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (23:31.61)
And so it's like, yeah, we'll laugh because I'll do little daddy daughter dates with the girls and then I'll take my son out. We went to the comic book store on Father's Day and went and bought comics together. But I'll take one of them out at a time. And we have a big phrase here. I think I maybe heard it from Andy Stanley originally, which was do for one what you wish you could do for all. And when we have four kids, it's not fair. It's not, you know, I tell the kids that all the time. Like, it's not fair that I took Harper out to go get ice cream after whatever.
because it would be great if I could do that for all, I can't do that for all. And so one part of it is just, if I take four kids to the library, it's a field trip, and you're managing a crowd. If I take one, it's like, my gosh, this is so fun, we can just languish and sit in the aisle and read books together and all that kind of stuff. And so there's the back and forth benefit and cost kind of thing with sibling groups, but.
That was a huge thing for us, kind of bringing it back to a real lesson was our youngest two came with lots of very tough behavioral issues. And we were having tantrums probably like six to eight hours a day, nonstop tantrums. Adriana would be like, I gotta take a break. And I'm like filling in here and I'm like, I'm crashing over here and we're just like going from room to room.
you know, managing and having to restrain at times and give them a little sweet hug and hold them because they're just going violent and breaking stuff and hitting people and stuff like that. And you're exhausted, you're not sleeping, all that kind of stuff. And what we learned really quickly was our older two girls didn't have those same issues. And so we would start letting them stay up later so that when the younger two finally went to sleep and the days of wars were over,
we could say, let's watch a movie together. Let's just spend some real, like get some dessert and let's hang out. And we still weren't, we'd been fighting tensions all day long, you know, trying to keep the peace and say, you're exhausted, you're not in your best place, but they cherish those moments and just finding some way to like. Kind of even it out. They weren't getting as much of us as the other two were, you know, just by default. Yeah. Absolutely.
Travis (25:32.974)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Travis (25:44.886)
Hmm. Well, what I love too is, is I think there's something that I really want to hear you, back to Jamie on, cause you've talked about this before and I think it's, it's really worth honing back in on. this was from another conversation, but you know, when we talk about the topic of siblings in foster care, and Courtney's going to share a staggering statistics here at the end after this, but that there is a, there is a,
Courtney (25:54.167)
you can talk about this before.
Courtney (26:01.335)
But we'll talk about the topic of siblings in the class.
And according to the federal statement that was just put up here, but that there is a, there is a importance in the sibling bond that I think can be underestimated or not seen that, you know, they were a family.
Travis (26:14.542)
importance in the sibling bond that I think can be underestimated or not seen that, you know, they were a pre -existing family unit. And so, you know, there's something intentional here about not just preserving, you know, we want to have more fostering off the families, preserve those sibling connections to stay together. But what about just that, what you guys saw in the transition time and even I'm sure today, but that, that, that,
Jamie & Adriana Howard (26:23.066)
Yeah.
Courtney (26:23.703)
And so there's something in the intention here about not just preserving. We want to have more partners about the trans -preservation of those. But what about what you guys saw in the transition? And even I'm sure today, but that unit and effectiveness that they have used to transition people's lives.
Travis (26:44.046)
unit that connectedness that they had ease the transition into your home as a new family. I mean, do you want to, can you speak to that a little bit?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (26:50.586)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so as just a basic statement, like sibling groups, it's super important. And a good way that it's put is like, they have, our kids moved from home to home to home. So they were, I think in four homes over the course of a few years. And some of those were long -term placements. Some of those were short, you know, respite moments for, you know, trips and things like that. But they had moved from different houses.
And so when they moved in with us, even though we told them, where are your new parents, basically, and made it clear, they were like, okay, but we're gonna be with y 'all for a little while, and then we'll go to our next house. And they just didn't have an understanding of what permanency meant. But what they did have was this sibling bond that went with them from house to house to house. And that's so incredibly important for a lot of different reasons. One is just their identity, like knowing who they are.
It's really funny. We'll catch them telling stories that Some of them were like I think there's a hint of truth there But some of them I feel like we call it the lore, you know We'll be driving in the front of the van and they just hear stories like yeah I remember you you were you were in diapers and you did this thing remember and it's like I don't know if that's a real story or just something they're creating but it's Their story, you know, it's and we call it the lore like there's another part of the lore like you had this toy I remember that toy, you know, he gave me this or whatever
Travis (27:55.31)
Ha ha.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (28:12.442)
And we do try to encourage that because that's their identity, that's their story. And so like, we let them write stories about it. We let them write letters to their biological parents, you know, Father's Day, Mother's Day kind of things, like giving them opportunities to kind of share that Christmas. We try to help that continuance see of their identity. But as far as like them being siblings, like there's such an important part about them sharing that story and not feeling like they're just out there.
you know, floating and nowhere. And so part of the transition was so helpful because our oldest was very parentified because she was the parent from all those houses. And part of that, and we've tried to honestly unravel that a lot with her so that she can be a kid again. And so that's still a journey that goes on today that we have to kind of work through that. But what was really helpful about that, you know, as a kind of a survival mechanism for them.
was when they first moved in, we can say things like, hey, can you go help your sister take care of this? Because this one's throwing this huge tantrum. And can you help with this? And can you go sit with them and check on them? And really helping them work together in that. And also, when they would go through really tough things at school or go through tough things, get in trouble here at the house or whatever.
Travis (29:26.254)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (29:36.122)
where they could comfort each other and be there with each other. And I think that's like such a powerful, powerful thing that again, is not intuitive going into this. You just think, more kids, but you forget that there's this whole benefit of having like kids who are in the same boat with each other, who have gone through the same things to each other, who, you know, our kids got made fun of at school for being adopted, you know, or being in foster care.
Travis (29:46.35)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Right.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (29:59.386)
And one of the other ones like, I'm gonna fight that kid, you know, like being right there with him. But the other one's like, I know what that's like. And being able to sit there and like, you know, cry with him too. And so, yeah, it's a thing that again, if you just think about like, there's a lot of kids or three kids or four kids or 10 kids, whatever it is, that's daunting, but you forget that there's a whole psychological and emotional benefit of having kids who...
Travis (30:20.046)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (30:23.994)
Have someone in their corner that they're not just like having to click restart every time that they've moved from home to home.
Travis (30:31.374)
Yeah, well said.
Courtney (30:34.711)
Yeah, our family, we've adopted six kids and then we have two sibling groups, but we also have our oldest daughter who's now 21. She was adopted at 15 and separated from her siblings. They were adopted into a different home and then to her in our home and just the impact that had on her and continues to have on her. By far, she'll say that was the hardest hurt of her foster care journey, her adoption journey was being separated from her siblings. Yeah.
Travis (30:35.502)
We've adopted six kids. We also have our oldest daughter who's now 21. She was adopted at 15 and separated from her siblings. They were adopted to a different home than her in our home. And just the impact.
Travis (30:59.158)
Hmm
Courtney (31:01.463)
And reports say that two thirds of kids in foster care have siblings and 50 % of those are separated from each other. Some of them never reunited. It's just super staggering and very heartbreaking. So what would you guys say to people that are considering fostering or adopting and what would your encouragement be to take on siblings?
Jamie & Adriana Howard (31:09.174)
Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (31:23.002)
man, I mean, it is like a grab bag of like, there's pluses and minuses. Like, you know, in that, I say minuses, not like don't do it, but like it's hard, you know? Obviously, you love what you're saying. Like you're talking about exponential growth here, so like everything is just by numbers more difficult. And, but.
Travis (31:34.926)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (31:44.634)
Like I think about our kids, like you're talking about, you know, two thirds of sibling sets are separated. Our kids have other siblings that were older than them that were also in care and were separated for, you know, for different reasons. And it like breaks my heart that like our kids only knew them by like nicknames. Like they don't even know their siblings actual name. We don't have that information either. So it's like, just like the...
Travis (32:09.262)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (32:11.802)
levels of loss just like continue to reverberate and we just can't catch all those pieces enough to like deal with the hurt, you know and so like my encouragement would just be like I Don't know like we stepped into this So naive about our own capacity and what it was gonna
Like how our bodies and lives would feel from those shock waves of the kids. But like in all so many beautiful, amazing ways, they have just like turned our whole lives upside down. And I don't even like sometimes, we don't even remember who we were before. It's just like, we're, you know, June, July, July will be two years since adoption, which means four years since they moved in.
Travis (32:50.67)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (32:59.322)
And I'm like, it's only been four years. Like I don't even, it's like PC -80 kind of thing. I don't even know. It feels like everything just started then. And I just can't, I can't speak highly enough of like our experience in this, in this just thing that we've been doing. Again, not to say it hasn't been absent of like really hard, hard, hard days.
Travis (33:17.966)
Hmm.
Travis (33:25.71)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (33:26.49)
Again, we both came from really broken backgrounds. We are well acquainted with like hard things. This is the hardest thing ever. By far. By far. It makes everything else look like candy land. But I would not, we wouldn't trade any of it because our kids are just other worldly in their capacity for like good. They are just like, it's like they were deposited here from like another planet. They are just, they really are like they're different. They're wired differently.
Travis (33:48.782)
Hmm.
Travis (33:52.846)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (33:55.61)
their capacity for like empathy and kindness and wit and like resilience is beyond us, you know? And we would just, we would be so, I don't know, we would have missed out on like the coolest thing ever if we hadn't stepped into this. And I'm glad that we didn't know what we were stepping into because we might've said no, but that would be my encouragement is like.
Travis (34:12.174)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (34:24.538)
They, yes, it is daunting as, I mean, as anything, but like the possibility for like what comes afterwards is just so breathtaking that, I don't know, man. We couldn't have made Cooler Kids. Like we really couldn't have, you know? We just couldn't have made Cooler Kids. Yeah, it's so powerful and I agree. I think when anyone asks about foster care or anything like adoption, we can speak to it in any way.
Travis (34:40.654)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (34:53.786)
I always remind them that is, I want you to know that it's crazy hard not to discourage you, but to prepare you that it's not rosy and romantic and all this. Like it's not like going and getting a puppy from the, from the pet store or something like that. It's not what it is. But you know, Father's Day was a couple of days ago and Adriana had the kids prepare these little pictures and letters and stuff for me. And I'm just, you know, weeping like a little.
Travis (35:06.606)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (35:21.338)
wimp over there, you know, just they're like, I made daddy cry, I made daddy cry. I'm just like, I'm just because she prepared these pictures of when they first moved in versus how big they are now and stuff like that four years later. And we have just now gotten to the point where we can even revisit some of those pictures and those videos and things from when they first moved in because it was so hard. And it's just I'm like overwhelmed with how good the whole thing has been.
Travis (35:24.27)
Hahaha.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (35:48.026)
And so it's like, yes, it's hard. Yes, it's tough. Yes, it's gonna be a trying thing. And there's many trying days ahead of us, I know that. But to echo what she's saying is like, it's absolutely worth it. It is absolutely like, our hearts are so full and my gosh, I could not be more proud of our kids and how far they've come. And those tantrums and everything, they still have little hints. They still have moments where they still have.
Travis (35:48.43)
Hmm.
Travis (36:10.606)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (36:15.418)
They still have struggles, but my gosh, these kids have like blossomed. They were so far behind in school, so far about they didn't know how to take care of themselves hygienically and things like that. And they have just turned into these beautiful little kids who are like brilliant and have done so well in school and everything like that and have shown up for each other in big ways and stuff like that. So it's absolutely worth it despite all that, that hardness. So it's cool too, because they're so, we would not have our feelings hurt if our kids weren't like,
Travis (36:21.934)
Hmm.
Travis (36:36.654)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (36:45.306)
grateful, you know, I think that's like a kind of a miss. That'd be a lie. A misunderstanding, sure. To, you know, if we stepped into this and just thought that they would come in just like, thank you, mommy and daddy for rescuing me. That's just not real life, you know? And we would never begrudge our kids. And we don't. A lot of the days that they're just like not thankful for it, we're like, yeah, I mean, I'm not thankful for the things we went through either, like 100%. You know? But.
Travis (36:48.11)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (36:54.094)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (36:59.726)
You're right. Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (37:14.81)
We are really big in our house about like big time communication, like whatever you're feeling, whatever you're thinking, like please share it. We share our, you know, I mean, obviously we lose discretion, but like we try to be as forthcoming as we can with the kids as well because we want them to know like we are experts in some things. We are not experts in parenting and that should not give you like, I don't want you to be afraid, but we just want you to know that we're figuring it out too. So you guys are figuring out how to, how to belong to your family. We're also figuring out how to.
Travis (37:24.174)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (37:44.474)
to a family and so just like give us grace as well. But because I think we're so open with our kids and they're so open with us, there is like this real like sense of thankfulness that they have. And you know, in his father's day, the kids all wrote father's day letters and.
you know, several of them said, and they've echoed these kinds of sentiments through the years, like, thank you so much for adopting all four of us. Like, we could have been split, we could have been lost to each other, you know, our 10 year old. And they always say, thank you for adopting me and my siblings. That's how they write it. They are acutely aware of the fact that that is not a given. Yeah. And they are just so thankful for things like that, you know, and still like, I mean, we're four years into this and like our kids will still ask.
Travis (38:17.902)
Wow.
Travis (38:24.142)
Wow.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (38:37.658)
like are we gonna have dinner tonight? Because they still have those kind of lingering, you know, food insecurities or things like that. And I have to remind them like, listen, like we have made sure that you have food on the table every single meal since you moved in and we're never gonna make sure, like you will never ever go without. But there's also never a day ever that we put food in front of you. They're not like, thank you so much for this food that you made. Like they're just grateful. They don't have to be, they don't owe us jack. But like.
Travis (38:58.606)
Hmm.
Travis (39:03.694)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (39:03.834)
They are so aware of their circumstance and they have nothing but just like gratitude for where they are. And like, I mean, they're just, they like, again, I don't want to, I don't want to keep emphasizing it, but like, they just are wired differently and they, they know where they came from and they, they can spot like the, the, the beauty and where they came from as well. You know, we do our best to honor what was good. Like we really want to hold to that.
And again, some of that is kind of made up. Like they've created places to be thankful, look back on and be like, that was so nice. And we're like, that was real. But yes, that was so wonderful. I love that story that you tell, but they also are intuitive enough to like look back and see like, gosh, some of that really sucked and like can compare it to now. And again, they don't owe us their gratitude, but they are so thankful and there's just like never an opportunity. They only like on the daily, like.
Travis (39:34.798)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (39:42.478)
Hmm.
Travis (39:49.23)
Right.
Travis (39:56.526)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (40:01.242)
Thank you so much for paying for me to go to camp. Thank you so much for like the breakfast that you made this morning. Thank you so much for, I know my birthday is coming up. Thank you so much for the presents that I know you're gonna, like they just are so thankful, you know, for like everything. And it is not lost on me when we're interacting with other families who have biological children, it's like that is not innate in those kids because they've never had, they've never gone without, so they don't always know to be thankful for like little things.
Travis (40:25.87)
Right.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (40:27.77)
And not that I'm sitting around like, I put a plate in front of you, where's my thank you? Like, I don't care, you know, but they hear us always being thankful to each other. Thank you for giving me a glass of water, thank you for whatever. And so they just like echo that and they're just, you know, they recognize, like they can see the work that we're putting into it and it's not lost on them. And they are little, like, I mean, they're not babies, but like nine, 10, 11, 12, they're still babies, you know, in so many ways, but they are like so...
Courtney (40:31.447)
Hehehe.
Travis (40:32.526)
Hmm.
Travis (40:40.782)
Hmm.
Travis (40:53.358)
Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (40:57.114)
They had to become wise in the world just because of their situations. They had to grow up really fast and they just like, you know, they're just thankful.
Courtney (41:06.967)
And yeah, I know you guys don't do this to the praise and the accolades, but we do thank you for saying yes to four siblings and keeping them together because it's not common and it is such a need. Like I said, there are hundreds of kids across the nation that are waiting to be adopted and many of them with siblings. So yeah, we encourage other people to consider this and hear your story and see that they can do it, right? They can do it. It does take time. It takes a lot of energy, but people can do it.
Travis (41:13.422)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (41:18.926)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (41:31.298)
Yeah, we can do it. Absolutely.
Courtney (41:36.407)
But also it takes people to support you, you know, thinking about fostering, adopting, and then bring in a sibling group. What encouragement would you give or what could you call other people to take action in supporting families so they can bring in a sibling group? Like what has that looked like for you so that you could do that the day to day or even at the very beginning? How can people support families bringing in foster kids, especially group of them?
Travis (41:36.621)
Yeah.
Travis (41:59.47)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (42:01.018)
Admittedly, that is something that I think we have struggled with. And feel free to correct me if you feel differently, but we are not the kinds to ask for help. That's just like not something that we excel at. And so we still like, in such a sweet way, we still have family that are like, you are allowed to ask for help.
and you are allowed to say yes when I offer it and like stop saying stop rejecting our health, you know? So that's something that like even four years into it, we're still learning. My mom had one of our girls all day yesterday and I was fighting the like, is it okay I can come get her whenever you need it. It's a problem. It's probably so much I should probably, you know, and she's like, it's fine. Like you need to stop. And so that is something that.
Travis (42:33.87)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (42:47.438)
Ha ha.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (42:56.89)
we struggled with. And so I guess my answer to that would be learned really quickly how to not be that. I feel like we're just now kind of getting in a groove or figuring out how, and it's not like a pride. I mean, maybe I don't think it is. It's just like a survival thing. We hunkered down with them hard. Like they moved in and quarantined like none of us were getting out. We were all locked in with each other. Like it was just six suckers in space just trying to like survive.
Travis (43:03.054)
Mm -hmm. Accepted.
Travis (43:23.886)
No.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (43:25.274)
And I feel like we didn't come out of that. Like we're still kind of in like hunkered down survival mode. And so that is not to our benefit. It's not to our kids benefit. It does not reflect well of like kind of what the community at large is capable of. And so I would say like, like figure out how to be, we need help kind of people because people want to help. They want to help. People want to support.
So learn how to ask for it. Learn how to accept it. One of the big things that we have done is that we're really connected with our church and we have a small group of other couples that we meet with every week. And from emotional, spiritual, kind of like reaching out to them and saying, hey, this is a really hard week. That has been a huge help of like having people that we can go to to pray for us. And on the hard days, people that love you so much that they don't pretend like everything's fine and they'll cry with you, be mad with you.
And like when our kids have gone through really tough things at school, they can be mad with us and be like, that's not okay. And we're like, yes, thank you. And I think that's so, people who are, maybe don't have a community, I think that would be something that you really wanna look into because even if we haven't been the best at like asking for physical help in terms of like babysitters and things like that, that has been a huge help for us. And honestly, when our kids first moved in with us,
Travis (44:25.07)
Hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (44:54.682)
We put them in Taekwondo across the street and the people that were running that little school, it was in the middle of COVID, they had no students besides our kids. And they have even been like huge supporters of the kids and have like been right there alongside them through the entire adoption journey and foster care journey and have been tough with them in ways that like has been really powerful for the kids to like have other adults in their lives. And of course, like teachers and things like that. And I think, and.
you know, again, be generous with asking for help and looking for people who can, other adults in your life who can be there for your kids, like other, you know, takes a village kind of thing that, you know, there's nothing novel about that, but it is something that's easy to, depending on your own psychology and struggles, it might be easy to kind of clam up and be like, I gotta figure all this out. Instead of saying like, hey, we need help. And like, we really use at least if not physical things, maybe,
but just like prayer and encouragement and keeping that conversation going just to be able to have people that you can vent to. I actually have another father who I meet with every Wednesday at 5 .30 in the morning. It's the only time we can meet. And every time that I struggle with my anger or lost my temper on my kids or something like that, I confess that to him and I say, you know, pray for me and he does the same for me. And just every struggle that we've had or if Adrian and I are not in sync because if something's going on in our marriage or with the kids or whatever,
you know, confessing those things to him and letting that. So I think that there's a huge power just the relational finding people that you can have an emotional relationship, relational or spiritual connection with. So.
Courtney (46:36.727)
And I think that's so common for foster and adoptive families to feel, you know, not like you said, it's not a pride thing, but it's we're in that survival mode and it's hard for them to ask for help or to even think I need help right now. So again, I charge other people that are listening if you're not a foster adoptive family, but you know one, don't wait for them to ask for help. Go to them and say, hey, I'm going to bring you a meal this week. What day works best and put it that way rather than saying, Hey, do you need some help? Cause likely they're going to say, we're doing fine.
Travis (46:37.686)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (46:42.926)
But it's worth that trial mode.
Travis (46:48.974)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (47:01.742)
Right.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (47:04.882)
It has been a learning curve because on top of just like our Just being our distinct our natural disinclination towards asking for help. There's also this like
We brought it on ourselves. There's like this tension that we're trying to like combat mentally all the time and we've got a lot better about it and we can see more truth but there was definitely especially that first year where it felt like we did not want to it was hard for us to like envision letting people in because we wanted so badly to like
Travis (47:38.318)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (47:42.074)
To showcase this wild thing that we did that people were a little bit skeptical We wanted to show like see we know what we were doing and we made the right decision, you know And so letting on that it was hard and that we were hurting and that there was a lot of like We felt a lot of brokenness. It felt like at least for me. I was like, I don't I I want
Travis (47:52.366)
Alright.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (48:03.93)
We had people tell us like when we first were kind of getting licensed and stuff, we're keeping an eye on you guys because maybe we might want to do that too, you know, so we're going to be watching. It's like you immediately felt like, okay, I got to do this right. Like because I can't, I can't say how hard it is. I mean, we even have like family members that were hesitant to hang out with our younger two because they, we had been talking about how hard they were.
Travis (48:13.142)
Hmm. Hmm.
Yeah.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (48:26.842)
And we were like, man, maybe we shouldn't have shared that they threw tantrums all day long. Because now it's like when it comes time to pick up one of the grandkids, it's like, maybe I'll pick up the one that's not so hard. And it's that kind of thing where you go. Which is natural. Which is natural, yeah. It's like totally understandable. But you're also like, do I share? And there is a lot of struggle there where you're trying to find that. And you go on social media and post these pictures of your kids. You're like, we had a great day at the park. And you don't share the fact that like.
Travis (48:27.758)
Hmm.
Travis (48:31.406)
Ha ha ha.
Travis (48:46.766)
Mm -hmm.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (48:55.481)
That was like the only calm moment of the entire thing and the rest was all like chaos and like crying and you know, all that kind of stuff. So it is a balance and you know, I think you do have to go, how do I ask for help and find people who can get in the mud with me too. And you know, no matter what, if they're family or friends or church people or whatever, so.
Travis (48:57.742)
haha
Travis (49:16.526)
Yeah, really well said. Really, you know, I think people can really relate to this aspect of it's hard for a lot of us to ask for help, you know, giving and receiving grace, the whole thing around pride too, of just like what it means to say, you know, yeah, I mean, that whole thing of we brought this on ourself. I mean, you really, you really set the stage well for I think what a lot of people do think.
Courtney (49:39.415)
I'm really set to say dwell for a lot of people who think and wrestle with, but I think like you've all said, you're happy and helping support. The last thing I just want to say is to zoom out from the whole view of what we're here is that, kind of the point of, one of the big points of this podcast, thoughts of family, this idea of thoughts of family, communities, and group management, is this idea that everyone does have a role and that everything is connected. So when we talk in this episode about sibling separation,
Travis (49:42.318)
and wrestle with, but I think like we've all said, and what we're saying is like, we have to lean into help and support. And the last thing I just want to say is we zoom out from the whole, view, larger view here is that kind of the point of one of the big points of this podcast foster friendly and this idea of foster friendly communities and movement is this idea that everyone does have a role and that everything is connected. So when we talk in this episode about sibling separation and the staggering impact of that, that's related to.
Courtney (50:09.432)
And the staggering impact of that, that's related to not enough foster families. That's related to foster families not being supported enough and putting them to the level of support. So even like when we're stepping into health foster families in our neighborhoods and our communities, we are impacting people's lives. Directly or indirectly. So, an American kid belongs to the other side. There's an array of resources for fostering, supporting foster families.
Travis (50:12.366)
not enough foster families that's related to foster families not being supported enough and quitting because they don't have the support. So even like when we're stepping into help foster families in our neighborhoods and our communities, we are impacting keeping siblings together directly or indirectly. And so America's kids belong website has an array of resources for exploring fostering, supporting foster families. And you know, that's part of what you do, Adriana too, in Georgia's.
Engage in the community to see their place. So I just want to add that as well.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (50:46.17)
The type of little gym that he mentioned. They're not foster friendly, which is really cool. And so that's just, yeah. So they give like big discounts to foster families to come in there. So stuff like that. Exactly what you're talking about. So like, Hey, it's not, it's not, you're not without help and resources and stuff. So.
Travis (51:09.934)
Thank you guys so much for sharing your story, taking us into the journey, the beautifuls, the hard parts, and just being so real and vulnerable in this, and I think inspiring others too, just with your courage to step in and continue to learn.
Courtney (51:10.167)
Thank you guys so much for sharing your story, taking us on your journeys, for beautiful art, and just think the real and vulnerable. I think inspiring others too, just a good first step in and continue to learn. Yeah, thank you.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (51:24.09)
Absolutely. We appreciate it.
Travis (51:28.59)
We will see you later.
Jamie & Adriana Howard (51:29.21)
Bye y 'all. Thank you so much.
Courtney (51:29.367)
See you later.