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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:02.338)
Welcome to episode 26 of the Courageous Coach podcast. The podcast where we pull back the curtain on what it really takes to be courageous with your clients, your business and your life. I'm your host, Melissa Haig. In today's episode, I'm joined by Jane Gilham to explore values and how they can support us to be courageous, especially during challenging times.
Jane and I chat about our values, how they show up and shape our work and our lives. We also talk about the hard work of living into our values, recognising when we're living outside of them. It's a rich, honest conversation that shines a light on the important part values play in developing our grounded confidence and supporting us to be courageous with our lives. So, are you ready? Let's dive in.
Melissa Hague (00:04.392)
Welcome to the Courageous Coach podcast. I am joined today by the wonderful Jane Gillum. And many of you will have met Jane before or heard Jane's voice before because she's been on the podcast with me a couple of times now, I think. But I'm really, really delighted that she's been courageous enough to come back for season three.
and to have a conversation about values and their importance in courage building and in developing our grounded confidence. So I'm really delighted you're here, Jane. Thank you so much for being here.
Jane Gilham (00:42.868)
Thank you.
Melissa Hague (00:44.032)
And I'm gonna start because not, I mean, if you haven't listened to Jane's previous episodes, like, you know, come on, get listening, but I'm conscious that some listeners may not have heard our previous episodes. So I'd love to start, Jane, with just a little bit, tell us a little bit about you.
Jane Gilham (00:51.442)
you
Jane Gilham (01:02.12)
Hi, thank you again for having me back. It's really good and it feels kind of timely again. So yeah, I'm me. I am a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a grandmother to two granddaughters. I'm a daughter to a mother who's grieving the loss of her spouse. And I have recently been through a rebranding, which we talked about when we met.
several months ago and I struggle to articulate that because it's still new and I can't quite believe it but yeah many years ago 2019 the world delivered me a series of blows that just told me to slow down and I had the opportunity to rethink what I wanted to do and I'm now working with leaders, female leaders to work at the arc of
Melissa Hague (01:37.805)
Mm-hmm.
Jane Gilham (01:59.524)
High performance and well-being. I think there's a gap in there in terms of it's all possible but there's always a risk of sacrificing ourselves and I've called it the erosion of self and I think it happens over time so that's the space I've decided to work in and it's not specific to female leaders it happens to all leaders it's just that I see the world through my lens.
Melissa Hague (02:26.702)
Lovely.
Jane Gilham (02:29.076)
Yeah, having spent 25 years as the only female on a male team, I'm juggling everything else that life gives us, which are multiple lives. So yeah, it's in the early phase.
Melissa Hague (02:40.14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lovely. And Jane, I've got to mention as well, because I think the piece that I'm always attracted to in your work as well is that you have a very specific way of work. Well, I say specific, that might not be the right word, but it feels to me like you have a very specific way of working, which is around kind of connection to nature and outdoors and working with.
Yeah, working with nature and that's something that really fascinates me in my own wellbeing journey as well as my work. tell us, I know we're gonna talk about values, but I just like, tell us a little bit about that bit of your work, Jane.
Jane Gilham (03:21.402)
It's, I can't say it without without speaking to values because what I've realized over the last few months is that my values have always been present. I just didn't know what they were. I didn't understand the significance. So nature's always been a part of my life as a youngster. I learned to ride at six. So I was outdoors in all weather and then
that really stuck with me. So all of my earliest memories are outside all year round. So it's always with me. And then I did work with coaching outdoors and part of that was seeking to understand why we wanted to coach outdoors.
I went on a really long walk because I couldn't answer the question and it was freaking me out because it was homework. I was a bit like, my God! And I found myself walking at Virginia Waters. I walked into a clearing and found myself thinking of a time when I was young and in the south of France as a young child, six or seven, playing in the dirt, playing with my family and just thriving, feeling fantastic. And I felt safe.
because some aspects of my childhood weren't always safe. And it was really strong feeling for me and a very emotional feeling. So I've always been outside and then had this calling to, well, it makes sense to work outside. And nature is such a huge facilitator. You know, I can take a dog walk and come back and feel invincible and nature can just do that to you.
and to take clients outside. Not everybody loves the outside, not everybody's comfortable outdoors, not everybody wants to you know walk in the sun, the wind or the rain but when you do it's a very powerful facilitator in terms of metaphors and
Melissa Hague (05:04.334)
Mm.
Jane Gilham (05:13.051)
perspective, I think particularly at this time of year. The leaves have dropped, you see parts of the world that you walk every day, you have dogs, don't you? dogs, don't you? I see bits every day that I haven't seen because the leaves have dropped. So it opens your perspective right up.
Melissa Hague (05:20.822)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (05:29.602)
Yeah, yeah. See, I think this is a really good way to start our conversation about values because what I think I of I notice about what you're sharing and I think why I feel like a real connection to you when you talk about, you know, being outdoors and being in nature and what that gives you is that, you know, coaching outdoors is quite the thing.
at the moment, right? There's lots of people talking about coaching outdoors and the importance and, and I'm an outdoor coach. And, you know, and, and what I think is really important in how you talk about it is that it isn't a label that, I'm an outdoor coach, right? It's actually part of who you are that that has, you know, been been forming and developing since childhood, that importance, that connection to being outdoors and in nature. And so of course, that links to
Jane Gilham (05:57.524)
Yeah
Jane Gilham (06:11.92)
No.
Melissa Hague (06:25.184)
our values and what's important to us and how we use those values to guide our decisions and how we choose to live our lives. So there is, like you say, a real connection to values there, right? Okay, okay. So, you know, we, you and I know, and, you know, we're setting this up, I guess, for the people who are listening as well, that values are such a critical part of
Jane Gilham (06:36.967)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (06:50.912)
enabling us to be courageous, knowing what our values are, knowing what they look like. And, you know, living into them in those moments when we are unsure, when we feel vulnerable, when we're afraid, and all of those things that show up when we're being courageous. So values work is such an important part of developing our courage or our ability to be courageous, right? So I'd love for you to share a little bit about what's your
values development been? What's that journey been for you?
Jane Gilham (07:26.387)
Okay, so it came when the world sat me down. And it came because I met a therapist at the time, a psychologist at the time I was working with and I continue to work with now on and off. And she was a Dare to Lead fan, she was a Brene Brown fan, and she said, look, just...
just read this book because I was heavy in shame, heavy in shame, sicked in shame. So I'd like you to just start exploring different authors, try this. So she gave me to Lead to and from Good Woman and I love her and from that my curiosity around values was kind of peaked but it wasn't until we met in I think it was March of 2021 when you were running your Dare to Lead
Melissa Hague (07:58.7)
woman. Yeah, good one.
Jane Gilham (08:15.569)
for Coaches program that we got into the work. And that's where I established my first two, which was compassion and curiosity and worked through that process with you and also understanding why, but also understanding when you're working within your values and when you're outside of them.
Melissa Hague (08:17.038)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (08:39.665)
And it's not until I just said that that I didn't know the origins of the compassion and curiosity. I know the origins of the others, but not of those. So curiosity, I gift from my dad. And that's lovely because we're having a tough time with that. He was an avid reader, always drove me to read, always drove me to ask questions and be curious about the world. And the compassion comes from my mum.
Melissa Hague (08:47.777)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Jane Gilham (09:06.029)
never realised that and my mum and I are struggling at the moment with the loss of my dad and one of my values is being tested which is compassion. So I've had a moment on that, that's really interesting. So scoped out the first two with you and they were guiding me at the time in terms of where I was in my life and that enabled me to transition and move to
Melissa Hague (09:16.536)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:20.385)
Mmm.
Jane Gilham (09:34.512)
out the corporate life and into working for myself. So they helped me through that. And then when we met again last March in 2024 at the gathering, the first gathering, we did more work on values and you said, we can have more. And I was like, yay. And the three others fell out, which was family, health and nature.
Melissa Hague (09:43.587)
huh.
Melissa Hague (09:52.407)
Yeah
Melissa Hague (10:00.91)
Mmm.
Jane Gilham (10:02.467)
And they have always been present. Always. I've always known that my family were important. And I had a conversation recently with a leader who asked me how I balanced my life and my career.
Melissa Hague (10:05.848)
Mm-hmm.
Jane Gilham (10:19.345)
And I said, I have a husband and we partnered 50-50. We had childcare around us and we had family. But I always knew that I would never compromise my family for my career. And I always had a really firm boundary around when I'd work, the hours that I would work. I was never going to be the one that stayed at her desk until the boss went. I had a really clear view of.
I can deliver when I need to, when I need to work outside of those hours you'll see me, but other than that, don't set expectations of me. And in that conversation with her I was like, okay, wow, it's always been there. My health, very active as a child, know, always been active. And in terms of my health and then nature was like, well, yeah, you've always been in nature.
Melissa Hague (10:53.454)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (11:05.048)
Mm-hmm.
Jane Gilham (11:14.767)
So it was a moment when it kind of solidified all of the things that important to me that have always been a compass but I had not understood the significance and the value straight benefit of them and how they've helped me and shaped my life.
Melissa Hague (11:14.786)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (11:23.148)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (11:33.143)
Yeah. So, okay, thank you for sharing that because there's real richness in lots that you shared there because I think the thing that I think is so important is that, and of course this comes from Brene Brown's work, right, but this idea that
You know, we have values, you know, usually when we go about selecting values, and I know this is how we started doing the work, you know, let's pick some words that resonate for us that feel important to us, you know, and lovely. Now I've got my values, I've got my words, I'm done, I've done the work, there they are, right? And so we talk about the difference between practicing your values and professing your values. you you can, you can, you've just professed your values to me.
right? You know, compassion, curiosity, family, health, nature, there they are lovely. And of course, we could say, well, that's lovely, Jane, thank you very much. Now let's continue on and have a cup of tea and a little natter, you know, but then the really curious, the real curious bit for me is then what Okay, so what do they look like in practice, right? Practically, you know, how how do you live into those values? How would you see them showing up? So I wonder, you know,
Jane Gilham (12:33.864)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (12:42.856)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (12:49.698)
by all means pick one or you might wanna do more. don't know, I'll leave that up to you. But I'm wondering how those values kind of shape how you show up as a coach, actually in all of those roles that you mentioned, right? But what do they look like in reality?
Jane Gilham (13:09.139)
Well, I think what's important in having thought about this is that when they're honored, even if I'm struggling, it's much more meaningful and I feel connected enough to myself, you know, in a way that you have confidence that a job title or an achievement will ever give me. They anchor me when the world is good and when the world is tough. It's to raise any noise.
that is in the world and there's a lot of noise in the world. So it's brought me closer to what actually matters and that makes a difference to, for me, performing as a coach or performing in life because I am very performative, I'm a great actor which is one of the things that's my nemesis, to being a coach, to being a coach.
Melissa Hague (13:41.538)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (14:07.084)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (14:08.707)
So.
Melissa Hague (14:11.316)
interesting, not performing. So you're not, so actually you're not also, what's interesting with that is you're not performing your values. They are actually there because they're part of who you are. They're how you show up in the world, right? And I'm also thinking to myself, they're also about, it's something about using our values as well to make decisions. And sometimes tough decisions, right? About, I don't know, the...
Jane Gilham (14:13.69)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (14:24.891)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (14:37.964)
the way we wanna shape our business, the work we wanna do and the work we don't wanna do, how we choose to spend our time, right? So, immediately that brings me back to your value of nature because you've already shared how you're shaping your business around working with clients in nature, right? Yeah, and so that's you living into your values, I guess.
Jane Gilham (14:47.335)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (14:58.781)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (15:04.659)
Yeah, and I'm acutely aware that I haven't answered the question fully and I think taking the nature piece is last summer, so in summer 24 when my dad was dying, I was staying with my mum and we were visiting my dad every day and he died over 19 days.
And it was very challenging. You my mum was very confused, in shock about what was happening. She's in her late eighties and I was literally vibrating with anxiety. And I decided that in order for me to stay in my values of caring for my mum and myself, to stay compassionate to myself and to my mum and to the medical team, to be curious enough to ask the right questions that informed me or informed my mum.
I needed to be outside in the sea. And I walked to the sea every day and I was at the rear end of recovering from my broken foot. So I walked every day to the sea in a boot, in a plastic boot, walked onto the beach, took the boot off and got into the water. And it was summer, got into the water and just basically stood in the water up to my neck and just trod water until such time.
Melissa Hague (15:59.617)
okay.
Melissa Hague (16:10.027)
well.
Jane Gilham (16:20.667)
my nervous system was resetting and just calming myself down because the water was cold enough. Swim about a bit, half an hour, get out, walk home, go back to my mum and manage the day. And I did that every day for 20 days. And it was a game changer for me because the first day I did it, I was desperate. I needed to get out, get away from the situation. And I just found myself walking to the beach. And so for me, that was...
Melissa Hague (16:47.02)
Mmm.
Jane Gilham (16:50.557)
Take care of yourself in order to take care of your mum, in order to do the best that you can for your dad. What do you need? I need something to set my day up in the right way.
Melissa Hague (17:03.87)
And enable you to be in line with or live into all of the other values you mentioned, Compassion and curiosity and family. Yeah, absolutely. So actually also in that story, you're sharing how your values support each other. They need each other almost. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (17:09.368)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (17:20.35)
Yes, yeah they do and I know when we talked about it at the first gathering about you you can have your foot in one and not in others but at that time all of them were wrapped around me and the more often I think about it now and the work I do they are all around me I have to be aware of all of them.
Melissa Hague (17:40.098)
Yeah. So you're able to kind lean in and in and out, if you like, of the values that you need to in those moments. And they all kind of work together. Yeah, lovely. And so, I mean, that's a really difficult time to be going through in terms of dealing with your dad dying or the process.
Jane Gilham (18:07.196)
Mm!
Melissa Hague (18:07.36)
of him dying, right? And then obviously all of the grief that comes after that. I these are the times in our lives that really test us, right? Really test us when our values become even more important, but also even sometimes harder to lean into, to live into than they are when everything's swimming along quite nicely. I'm wondering about, because I'm hearing a lot of
Jane Gilham (18:16.273)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (18:35.374)
courage in the stories, there's a lot of courage required in that period. now I'm kind of thinking about, you know, how, and this may be related to, you know, to the coaching work that you do or more broadly than that, but I'm also kind of thinking about, so being clear on those values and really having them, holding them at your core. How does that kind of help you to be, how does that help you to be courageous?
Jane Gilham (19:06.317)
it gives me a really solid foundation.
You know, the nature thing, I'm very much into being earthed. I don't like shoes. I like wearing bare feet. I will comply with shoes when I have to, but I like to be earthed. You know, so having a firm foundation to stand on is everything for me. And my values on my foundation, I have two that are being challenged at the moment quite heavily. One is health.
Melissa Hague (19:20.046)
you
Jane Gilham (19:38.388)
in the fall I had last summer and crushing my foot I now live with post-traumatic arthritis which I was warned I would get and ignored until my body went I'm here. So I have pain every day and that's not a physical it's a physical pain but it becomes a psychological ache and because I stand on my feet every day
Melissa Hague (19:47.82)
Right.
Jane Gilham (20:02.195)
have that with me every day and I had massively underestimated what that would do to me. So I am struggling with my need to be outside, my need to walk every day, my need to engage with nature, balancing the pain. So I've had to come back from the level of exercise and intensity that I've been undertaking because when my health isn't good and the pain is high, my tolerance to everything else is really, really compromised.
Melissa Hague (20:30.794)
Mm-mm. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (20:31.115)
really compromised. So there's a lot of work around self-compassion in terms of this is hard physically and mentally for you. This is hard. You are human. There is a lot going on. Try to cut yourself some slack. And then there's the loss of my dad. And what happens in grief for me is that it's resonated around
Melissa Hague (20:48.824)
Mm, yeah.
Jane Gilham (20:59.921)
the way I was conditioned and raised as a child is now the way that I'm managing my grief, which was my parents' generation. Grief was quietly something you did behind a closed door. Lots of stoicism. And I've become aware recently that that is how I have been managing my grief, which is to focus on my mum's care. Well, she's managing her own. And I've got mine. And...
Melissa Hague (21:09.1)
Yes, absolutely.
Jane Gilham (21:29.681)
I am a compassionate person, but in witnessing my mum's grief and her pain and her despair and her anxiety of living alone without him and having nobody to make decisions for her because that's what used to happen, my ability to be compassionate is being very, very compromised. And that's not me being hard on myself. That's me understanding that compassion is one of my values. And when I'm not being compassionate, or I think I'm not being compassionate,
And you wouldn't see it, but I feel it. You'd never see it on the interactions that I have. But I know when I'm starting to vibrate and in my head, it is really challenging. And in this last week, as a result of a conversation with my psychologist, I am shifting to a different state of compassion, which is being observant, know, observantly.
Melissa Hague (22:00.512)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (22:27.559)
compassionate towards my mum, which when you understand what that is in terms of sitting with, listening to, reflecting, it's all the skills that we have as coaches. But when it's your grief and your mother's grief and all the other losses you've had in your life, and the intensity, I've never experienced the intensity of...
Melissa Hague (22:28.472)
you
Melissa Hague (22:37.187)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (22:44.982)
Hmm.
Jane Gilham (22:52.871)
the constant care my mum doesn't ask for because she's stoic, but I am swimming around in her emotional waters. the, as often coaches do, we do this because we want to help people. I'm a fixer, I'm a born fixer. Give me a problem, I'll fix it. I did that my whole grit. And now I can't fix it because if I try to fix her pain...
Melissa Hague (23:03.474)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (23:14.38)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (23:18.961)
I'm not allowing her to experience that, but it is really challenging. I mean, I understate that. is... It's hard. It's so hard.
Melissa Hague (23:23.351)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (23:28.258)
Yeah, really hard. I mean, I mean, I just, I can feel the hardness. Do you know what you mean? As you're sharing it, it is really hard. And I think something that you reminded me of, is, which is to be fair, this is something Brene talks about, but in terms of empathy, but empathy is a skill set of compassion, right? So I feel like there's a link here. Because when we're coaching, of course,
Jane Gilham (23:51.923)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:55.35)
and we talk about being compassionate and empathetic. Brunel always says that you have to know where you end and your client begins, right? Because otherwise you begin to take on all of their emotional baggage too, and that lead can lead to overwhelm. And then, so as you were sharing that, was thinking, well, of course I was thinking of my own mum, right? Of course, but I was thinking, my goodness.
Jane Gilham (24:04.708)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (24:24.14)
That where do you end and where does she begin? Wow. I mean, that's so much harder, right? When it's a family member or someone who's very close to us, then maybe it might be with a client, right? Yeah.
Jane Gilham (24:37.361)
Yeah, and to take your point, one of the podcasts that Brene Brown did with Adam Grant on the back of the new book, she talks about enmeshment. And that I was out walking one day, listening to a podcast and I was like, that's what's happening. I'm becoming enmeshed.
Melissa Hague (24:44.354)
Yes!
Melissa Hague (24:48.078)
Mmm, yep.
Jane Gilham (24:55.917)
And I know what drives it, it drives my deep sense of responsibility. I was a responsible child, I'm a responsible adult. It's that, look, you can't honour your own grief, you've got to be responsible, you've got to take care of the situation.
Melissa Hague (25:02.904)
Hmm?
Melissa Hague (25:08.738)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then, you know, particularly, I think if you're an over function, are you then start to over function, you get into fixing, you know, all of those things? Yeah, absolutely. And so, okay, so if we so if you're holding compassion, as a value, and I know you talk about the compassion for others, and also you talk a lot about self compassion. So how do you, you know, in holding that value of compassion and leaning into it, you know, living into that value of compassion,
Jane Gilham (25:15.717)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (25:31.57)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (25:38.39)
knowing it's hard and right now it may not be as easy as you would hope it would be. But how do you find balance, I guess, between compassion for others and your self-compassion with all the traits that you've described that you have, right?
Jane Gilham (25:56.03)
With clients, I can hold compassion and I can hold a boundary. And I have a client who I've been working with the last year who's gone through loss. And don't get me wrong, the session was very, very powerful.
Melissa Hague (25:57.934)
Hmm.
Jane Gilham (26:18.339)
it to hold to hold space for someone who's experiencing loss knowing you've had your own and it's new but it didn't alter me in the moment it allowed me to you know to to be compassionate make to maintain you know the values to observe that pain and not get into it it was it was very different from when it's a family member
Melissa Hague (26:43.043)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (26:43.504)
and
Jane Gilham (26:49.573)
Weirdly, having the experience of loss, it allowed me to ask braver questions, which seems counterintuitive. You know, when somebody's in that situation themselves and grieving, your brain's going, don't do it. But you're thinking, I think this is really important moment. I think, you know, I think there's something here that will be of benefit. Don't do it. Don't upset them. No, come on. Come on. It's, you know, let's try this.
Melissa Hague (27:15.394)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (27:19.854)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and let cat can you can you still experiment right with the client because I think there's something for me around. And we kind of get a bit of a fear as coaches sometimes that if we if I'm particularly when you talk about something like grief, right, but if we allow their grief, will that mean that our grief will
the floodgate will open and my grief will come out as well, right? And then how will I maintain that, again, that professional facade or whatever it is we think we're supposed to show up as. And so, yes, we've got to do our own work, but also we're two human beings who have both probably been affected by grief in some way at some point, right? And that connection is important. Yeah, and I think that it's very different when we're with a client than when we're with a family member.
Jane Gilham (27:53.179)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (28:10.333)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:20.492)
I wonder, this is perhaps, this is a, think I'm about to ask a reflective question, Jane, rather than one that, you you might answer now, because what it's making me think about is, and this is for me as well, is thinking about what am I learning in this, you know, in this experience of grief and the experience of, you know, my
family member, your mother in your case, her grief and how that's impacting and all of that. What am I learning about myself here that is also curious, interesting when it comes to the work that I do as a coach, right? I kind of, because there's such deep learning that you're doing, right?
Jane Gilham (29:08.915)
Yeah, there's something about presence.
Melissa Hague (29:13.134)
Okay.
Jane Gilham (29:14.683)
When I'm with clients, my presence is much clearer to me in terms of where I end and where they begin.
I am an emotional creature, we've talked about that before, and if I have emotion rising or something we are talking about or reflecting on feels like it's really hit me in the heart because that's where I come from, I often articulate that because I think it's important for clients to know that we are human and for them to know that we do feel, but not in a way that it derails me. So there is that clarity and what I'm learning now is
Melissa Hague (29:47.874)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (29:55.742)
how do I have that presence and clarity with my mum?
in a way that is helpful to her because not for one minute does she think I'm abandoning her, not for one minute does she not think I'm helpful, not for, you know, there's lots of stories you can tell yourself.
Melissa Hague (30:17.25)
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Jane Gilham (30:19.019)
and grief.
creates hooks, it asks you to search for things to hook onto because the pain is too difficult. So I guess I'm learning that I see the hooks with my mum, I see my own hooks, but I also see client hooks.
Melissa Hague (30:40.61)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, because we don't want to feel the tough stuff. We respond by suppressing or denying or armoring up. We want to discharge the difficult emotion in some way. Definitely. And leaning into it and being curious about it and wondering about what you might be learning.
Jane Gilham (30:47.421)
No.
Jane Gilham (30:52.071)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (31:10.158)
Sometimes I'm like, no, thank you. I just like to not feel like that. Thank you. So we're skilled, I think, as humans at suppressing, keeping it down. And what I really notice and recognize, Jamie, with what you're saying is that I think that it sounds like, and I'm not.
Jane Gilham (31:13.767)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (31:35.51)
saying that you've got it perfect because none of us are perfect. We're all messy, right? And we all get it wrong. But what I hear is that kind of real openness to the emotion, but in a way that is mindful, which is where I think the presence thing comes from, right? It's mindful as opposed to it being overwhelming. And so you're creating that
Jane Gilham (31:40.647)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:04.386)
different separation maybe between how do I want this to show up in my client work? How do I want this to show up with my mom? How do I want this to show up in the rest of my family? It's kind of like that ability to regulate when you need to, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, I wonder, Jane, can we talk about curiosity for a moment? Let's go off a slight segue if that's okay, because...
Jane Gilham (32:18.481)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (32:28.05)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:32.128)
I'm curious about curiosity because it's one of my values as well. And I was asked, I was recording, I was a guest on a podcast, recording a podcast yesterday. And the host asked me, you know, what does curiosity mean? You know, what does, can you describe what that looks like? And, and it was a moment of pause, I had sort of like when, because I kind of, I don't know, it's just a word I throw around. So that when you have curiosity in your list,
Therefore, I was like, I wonder what Jane would say. So I'm wondering, like, let's imagine for a moment, you're going into a coaching session. And you're thinking for whatever reason, you know, you're going to lead, you're going to lean into your curiosity value here, right? All coaches would want to be curious, but it's a value. So I want to lean into it. So what would leaning into your curiosity value look like if I was a fly on the wall? What would I see in a coaching session for you?
Jane Gilham (33:28.871)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (33:33.534)
For me, I like context. I've always liked context. In my previous life, we were required, if we were investigating issues, I like to build up a three-dimensional picture of a situation, a bit like a crime scene. And I can build a scene from the bottom up. I can do that with people proximally to each other, situations, events, distance, all the sorts of things that we've just had to get into. So for me,
I work with different clients across different industries, but my gut drives me to, I need to understand the situation better contextually. And my curiosity will get me to ask questions that are not only informing me, but they're also informing the client because often clients come with...
challenges, issues, demands, know, concerns that are intense in the moment and lack context. You know, it can become very, ooh, they just, know, ooh, that, this, that, they, them, and unlike...
Melissa Hague (34:44.216)
Yep.
Jane Gilham (34:45.349)
And I know from experience, and we all do, that things don't happen in isolation. There's energy around us, there's around other people, there's other people's behaviours, there's business, you know, the whole thing. So my curiosity drives me to ask those types of questions with my clients.
Melissa Hague (34:50.446)
you
Melissa Hague (35:01.326)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it does. It does. I love that because I was thinking about you saying about building like a 3D picture. And I was thinking that's also kind of what we're helping our clients to do, isn't it? And then then sort of, okay, let's now move around this 3D picture and look at what we built and what we see. know, absolutely, because sometimes all they can see is the is the very narrow piece of information that they got right in front of them. And it's hard to see beyond that, right?
Jane Gilham (35:03.559)
Does that make sense?
Jane Gilham (35:09.799)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (35:14.503)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (35:25.81)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (35:29.486)
And so being curious to want to build that picture is about helping the client to do that as well. And I think it's so interesting because I think that, I mean, curiosity for me is, has always been about being, not being a knower, right? Being a learner, being curious, not assuming that I already know. And I think this is such an important point because
Jane Gilham (35:29.618)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (35:36.69)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (35:47.409)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (35:55.426)
I was really conscious when I was asked the question yesterday, and I think I might have said as well, I can tell you what it looks like for me, but that might not be what it looks like for the person who's listening, right? So this is such an important point with values, I think, is that we have to be so aware of what our values mean for us, what they look like for us, and accepting that they will look different potentially for someone else.
Jane Gilham (36:02.396)
Yeah.
Good? Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (36:24.79)
And so I think curiosity has always been about getting comfortable with not knowing. And I think also my curiosity value keeps my fixer in check. So, you know, I've got a little bit of that fixer, well, a little bit, a lot of that fixer, you know, I want to help, I want to be useful, I want to add value. And, you know, and I've always known that that was, you know, from, you know,
Jane Gilham (36:30.771)
Hmm?
Jane Gilham (36:39.367)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (36:50.732)
from becoming a coach, that was always the first thing, right? Okay, that's my area. That's what I need to work on is that is the not knowing and the not fixing. And I think really getting to grips with what curiosity looks like for me as a value has helped me with my fixer tendency, I guess, because, you know, in before a session in prep, you know, I'll think to myself, okay, how am going to show up curiously here?
Or the, let me just check all of the notes from my last session with this client so that I can one, so I can think about where this session might go. How about you not do that? Says my curiosity value. How about you not do that? How about you just be just be endlessly curious about what might happen in today's session? How about you do that? Right. So, you know, that's values for me, I think are, you know, they show up in my prep and then they show up in the session as well in terms of how I want to show up.
Jane Gilham (37:27.121)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (37:33.574)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (37:43.767)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (37:43.9)
Yeah, and that relates as well, you know, that whole prepping for and yeah, there's often that, ugh, to look, just be, just be. Because the last session may have no relevance to this session because it often doesn't, you know, there might be a development theme, but more often than not, my experience is that clients plan to come with something and that's not even what comes out of their mouth.
Melissa Hague (37:54.456)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (38:09.582)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Or they start with something and then halfway through the session, they realize it wasn't that thing that they came with. And so curiosity is hugely important. And as part of that, and I think also the other thing as well is that it also, find I've sort of tried to build my values also into my, in some ways, some kind of like my reflective practice as well after the session. Kind of what didn't go.
Jane Gilham (38:13.479)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (38:35.003)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (38:37.206)
as well as I would have liked or you know, what, what might, what, what were any, were any moments a bit jarring for me? Did anything kind of show up that didn't feel quite right? What was that about? And I quite often find in that reflective practice that again, something from my values will show up. You know, okay, I wasn't curious. I wasn't being curious in that moment. Or, you know, I wasn't leaning into in your, your values. I wasn't, I wasn't leaning into my compassion at that point or
Jane Gilham (39:03.665)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (39:04.064)
etc, etc. So they can be really useful as reflections, I think, as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then I think the other thing I might think this is my final question, Jane, I think. Yes, it is. This is my final question. Because, one of the things I will often say to people that I do values work with, you know, who are just beginning the kind of developing their values, and process and
Jane Gilham (39:09.447)
Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
Melissa Hague (39:33.622)
I say to them, you you've got these words, great. Trust me, that's not it. The words aren't enough. But, you know, now you've got these words, kind of take some time, go find some people that know you really well, you know, but not people who are going to, like, smooth you and precate you, people who are going to give you constructive criticism. Say, look, this is what I think my values are. What do you recognize in me? What do you see in our relationship or in the way that, you know, we are...
Jane Gilham (39:46.77)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (40:02.358)
the way that we show up together that demonstrates these values. And so I'm thinking about if I was to ask your nearest and dearest, or indeed if I was to ask one of your clients, what do think they would say, Because they wouldn't say, yes, Jane's values are compassion, curiosity, family, health, and nature. But what would they say, do you think, that would demonstrate that you're living those?
Jane Gilham (40:06.567)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (40:31.672)
values.
Jane Gilham (40:37.287)
that.
my family, my daughter, my husband, they are part of my conversation. They're always in my conversation. Always. They are who I am. They are what I came from and who I've gifted to the world.
Melissa Hague (41:01.312)
Lovely. Lovely.
And do you, oh, this is, wasn't my last question. I knew there'd be one more. I knew there'd be one more. One more question. Yeah. Yeah, no, there's still one more. There's still one more. Because the other thing I was thinking about as well, because of everything that you've shared in our conversation today, and thank you for being so open about where you're at and what you're going through at the moment, because I also kind of wonder around, again, thinking about your family,
Jane Gilham (41:12.307)
I'm still holding my breath, it's okay.
Melissa Hague (41:35.34)
your daughter's family, your husband, know, that kind of, because they know you and they know what your values are, what's well, they know what's important to you. And I wonder how they support you to live into your values.
Jane Gilham (41:37.799)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (41:46.919)
Yeah.
Jane Gilham (41:55.934)
So in a moment of distress the other night, I was talking to my husband saying, I just don't think I'm doing enough. And he was like, you are delivering a gold star for your mum. There isn't any more that you can do. And you can't see that, but we can all see that, your commitment to her and the situation, but at risk to yourself.
Melissa Hague (42:15.234)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (42:20.216)
Ooh, okay.
Jane Gilham (42:22.067)
My daughter will be considerably more clearer and probably blunter than that. Yeah, but I think what I've learned with values is that it's driving conversations with my family and my daughter and my grandchildren that are important, you know, that are important and that's the gift.
Melissa Hague (42:30.734)
Okay?
Melissa Hague (42:44.952)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (42:50.265)
that I want to pass forward is that you can
live a life where with my values, because I know what matters to me, I'm less likely to wonder what will people think.
my go-to now is does this honour what I believe? And if any of these are at risk, the others guide me.
Melissa Hague (43:12.909)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (43:19.278)
Jane, what a wonderful point to end on because I think that's it. That's like almost like in a nutshell, right? I don't, it's not about what other people think. It's about does what I want to do or what I'm doing, does it honor my values? Does it allow me to live into my values? Yeah, the hard work of living into my values. Yeah. So it's almost freeing. Yeah.
Lovely.
Jane Gilham (43:49.937)
Yeah it is, it is, yeah.
Melissa Hague (43:52.11)
Well, Jane, thank you. Thank you so much for coming back again onto the podcast, but talking about values, but also, you know, sharing your personal journey with with your values. And importantly, the you know, the hard work of living into them. And it's not, you know, it's not an easy it's not an easy piece of work. And it isn't just about the words, right? You're actually living your values. Yeah.
Jane Gilham (44:12.179)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (44:21.272)
Thank you. Thank you so much, Jane.
Jane Gilham (44:24.552)
You're welcome. It's been great. It's been lovely to catch up. Take good care of yourself.
Melissa Hague (44:27.446)
Indeed.