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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
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Hi Tooba, welcome back to this fourth episode and happy birthday!
Tooba:Thank you so much! You missed my birthday because you got injured. How are you feeling now?
Louise:I'm feeling much better, thank you. I actually hurt my knees, that's true. And that's the moment I realized that I actually really needed to rest because my body was tired because I was trying to balance everything in my life part time job, PhD, the gym and that's going be the subject of this episode how to balance PhD life with everything we have on the side
Tooba:and how to take breaks in between So, Louise, we're both full time PhD students, but we're not only just PhD students. We also do so many other projects academically in addition to our research. What are you doing these days?
Louise:That's a long list. I do like to do a lot of stuff beside my PhD because I actually want to build a good CV for a summer PhD to stay in academia. So right now I'm trying to do a lot of conferences. I did a lot with you. I think we went together to Birmingham.
Louise:What else? Oxford. True. IOE won. IOE went several times to IOE post and IOE summer conference which was
Tooba:very nice. We're going to one tomorrow.
Louise:In Cambridge. That's true. So a lot of conferences which is very nice because we can explore other cities and other countries as well. I'm going to do one in Italy next weekend. So it's going to be very nice.
Louise:I'm also a student representative of my department this year, so CCM Culture, Communication and Media, which is also nice because I learned to know a lot of the other PhDs, so that was really nice. I'm also at IOE peer supporter, so I'm helping the other students, but also undergraduate masters when they need help from me, mostly to start their journey at UCL. I'm also supervising an undergrad dissertation. It was the first time. That was really nice.
Louise:I understand more my supervisor now. I was on the other side. So it was really nice. So yeah, and we have the podcast. Yeah.
Louise:How can we forget about that? So that's a lot of stuff. But I think this is important to do that alongside a PhD to build CV and some skills as well. And this is important for networking. We learn to know a lot of other PhD teachers.
Louise:This is a new opportunity and build some skills on the side, I guess. What about you? What are you doing? I know you're doing a lot of stuff, so tell me.
Tooba:Yeah, I'm doing a lot of stuff, but you're right. We really need all those things to put on our CV, and this is just a lot of pressure within my own self for me to accomplish more and more. And also, I feel like when you are in the university just only focusing on your research project, which is the primary focus anyway. But in addition to that, you should get other exposure as well, which actually enhance you as a researcher, and by that, also add value to your research project as well. For instance, I have been to a PhD retreat, which doesn't sound fun, I must tell you.
Tooba:It was more like a very intense academic course in Sweden. Last year, then I do a lot of conferences, which I am tired of, to be honest. And then I'm going to another summer school. And then I do a lot of other research projects on the side too. I currently am doing a UCL Changemakers project for students with disability and neurodivergent conditions, special researchers with.
Tooba:I'm working on that. And before that, I worked with Bartlett in one of their projects, which was also similar to artists plus researchers coming together to working on, neurodivergent conditions and people who suffer from losses. So, I mean, these are all very heavy stuff, but we do these things, and I do sometimes wonder why we do those things.
Louise:I think our supervisors also wonder that sometimes.
Tooba:Yes. Yes, they do. But I think our supervisors, especially men, are quite encouraging. And they always encourage me to get more and more experience, but also reminding me to stay focused on my PhD research.
Louise:Same, they always congratulate me for the conference and for the podcast, which they are listening to. But yeah, they remind me to write my PhD and stay focused, which is important. True. So Thuba, tell me, I can see how you're painting again. There is
Tooba:a lot of colors. What are you doing? I'm becoming very predictable. There's always colors. That's true.
Tooba:I don't know when I started what I'm going to paint, but I think these are colorful wings. And then I'm going to, in the middle, make fairy who's losing her mind, which would be me. And everything, books and all other things I'm going to add to it that how we're balancing PhD in life. So it's you being overwhelming, right? Yes.
Tooba:Overwhelmed. But colorful because I'm funky. Okay, how about you, Louise? I again see very organized. Yeah, I'm also predictable that this
Louise:is very organized. I painted two faces. So one is very happy and has the sun because I'm also very happy on everything I'm doing. But sometimes because this is a lot, I overcommitted. I feel overwhelmed, I'm struggling and I'm doing sort of bubble with all of the stuff I'm doing in my life.
Louise:So, Tooba, we also have a life outside of academia, right? Will we? We also are human. So what are you doing outside of university, Tuba? I mean, of the PhD?
Tooba:It's very hard to answer if you say outside of the university, because I'm always inside the university. Outside my PhD, I'm working as a PGTA, and that's been quite a rollercoaster. Yeah, I remember that. But yeah, apart from that, I think I have a social life with you. You think?
Tooba:Yeah, I think so. That life that I have, it called a social life.
Louise:I mean, you're going out with people, yes, for sure.
Tooba:Okay, yes, then it is a social life, guys. And then there's family visiting them. My sister lives in Kent, so I, once in a while, at least try to go once every month to really have the comfort of home and cooked meals. And of course, I love my family, that's why. And apart from that, I think most of my time is spent in hospitals as well for medical appointments and getting the treatment because I have a chronic condition, glaucoma.
Tooba:So this is a major part of my life, and I need to manage that as I'm managing everything else. Not just managing it, I have to live everything else according to that because that is the most crucial part of my life. You know, recently I was saying that my favorite hangout spot is hospitals because I go there a lot.
Louise:And sometimes I go with you. Yes. And it's always fun
Tooba:when you are there, I was like, okay, now we're at this stage in our friendship that, you know, it doesn't matter which place are we. We always have fun, And which is I think if we I can squeeze some time in between these things. I do have hobbies too, which is painting. Therefore, we have this podcast. Yes.
Tooba:And also not reading books because I am not that cool. But watching Netflix documentaries of famous crime or watching teenage shows. I love that. So, and listening to good music, taking walks, travelling, discovering new places, and eating, going to restaurants, trying new food. That's, I love that.
Tooba:How about you, Louise?
Louise:I'm also working part time. I'm a French teacher, so it's taking a lot of my time. It's twenty hours per week. So yeah, that's a lot. And I'm working with kids, so it can be emotionally draining sometimes. And they are very young kids as well, so sometimes they want to climb on your shoulders or whatever. So yeah, it's a bit tiring. That's cute. That's cute. That's a lot of cuteness, a lot of question innocence but a lot of energy as well. And yeah, I'm going on my 30s so I'm tired.
Louise:I also try to have social life with you, with my colleague, with the other PhD. I'm trying to call my family as much as I can maybe it's not enough but I'm trying my best I'm going to the gym therefore I hurt my knees I'm trying, I'm trying my best and yeah I do have some hobbies as well like you we did watch Bridgerton together I remember we paint together so we do have some common hobbies and we discover some places together as well we went to cage and you make me try Pakistani food and I think the next one should be French restaurant. That's the next one on the list. Yeah, I do like to read sometimes when I have time and I want to take a break off academia reading. I like to crochet as well.
Louise:It's a new hobby I started by making your scrunchie. So cute girls sometimes I play piano and ukulele very badly but I'm trying oh and I like cooking actually I like to do everything that can empty my mind from the PhD that's what I like
Tooba:And she is so creative, master of all art.
Louise:Thank you, but very badly. You are master of painting. My painting is very bad.
Tooba:Okay. So Louise, clearly we have a long list of things and tasks to do, both inside academia and outside it. How we manage all this? How do you find the balance between managing everything that you do?
Louise:I am not sure I have found my balance. I'm not sure I have the perfect solution. In this third year, I did better than the previous one, to be honest. So I'm doing good. I do have a very scary Google Calendar with a lot of colors, everything written so I have time to study, to work, to have social life.
Louise:I plan everything, which is a bit crazy and sometimes I'm not that flexible. But I do think we need break. Sometimes we do too much stuff. We want to be everywhere. We want to satisfy everybody as well, make everybody happy, a supervisor, a boss at work, a friend, a family, and we took too much responsibilities and commitment.
Louise:And sometimes we got too much tired. And it happened to me twice this year where my body said it's too much, you need to rest. One in the summer I got a huge flu for one month but I didn't stop working and I didn't stop studying and now I have the knee issue. I do think that sometimes as a PhD, have to listen to our body and we have to take some rest away from the PhD, away from the work. I didn't master that right now.
Louise:Even when I rest, I'm trying to do some side project or write some paragraph, but I think I'm getting there. Tooba, are you doing better than me in balancing your life?
Tooba:Let me think. Well, no. You know, I was just thinking what to say to that question, and I just thought, well, if I look back today, what I did, I did so many things. I get up early in the morning, I got ready, went to university, did some work, studied in the library, then attended a meeting, then again prepared my presentation for the conference tomorrow. And then I came here, and now we're doing the podcast.
Tooba:So this is how I manage. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's the right balance. And we also, in between, had our food. We just squeezed everything.
Tooba:Said, okay, we need to take care of your knee. We need to take care of food. We need to take a forecasting.
Louise:Yeah, just for our
Tooba:guys, it's currently 08:49PM. I mean, so finding the balance is a tricky space. I'm not sure if I have met anyone in my life who has found the balance. That's true. But I think just striving for it and just perhaps trying your best, which we do, is the way.
Tooba:Yeah, I don't sound very optimistic, do I?
Louise:That's really weird. I think even other people outside of PhD take their entire life to master balancing the life between family, social, sport, hobbies. And for us, we also have work and also PhD, so this is
Tooba:Yeah. You know, sometimes when it gets too much overwhelming, I just think like maybe we do not need to find the balance. Just let it flow. Whatever happens, happens. Yes.
Tooba:Whatever not, not. So I think just not trying to control everything sometimes also helps, But I'm not sure what helps.
Louise:So, Tooba, as international students in London, do you think we have even more stuff to balance or more stuff to deal with?
Tooba:I'm compelled to say yes, but I also think everyone's situation is different and I don't want to be, like, be very selfish about it. But as an international student, a lot of struggles get added into our experience because, you know, when you say you're going to pursue these studies to a university, but that university is in another continent, in another country, it's away from home. So it just doesn't become just about doing the degree, but a lot is on the stake. I think by that, when you take the decision, there's expectations, a lot of expectations built from you.
Tooba:Naturally, your family expects a lot from you, Your friends, the people who know you, you, yourself, expect so much from you. So for that, I mean, in that context, I feel like we really need to work twice as hard to achieve everything and find our foot in this foreign land, getting used to the culture, the climate, the environment. For instance, I grew up in a very hot environment back home in Pakistan. So when I first arrived here, I really I think I'm still struggling to truly I'm still struggling to truly understand what to wear in summers here because the summers here are not like summers back home, but they're also hot, and then we don't have ceiling fans and it just doesn't make any sense.
Louise:Yeah, and there's four seasons in one day.
Tooba:Yes, in one day. And
Tooba:it also affects your health, your mood, your emotion. And then we just discussed today that we do so much as PhD students, both academically and non academically. Sometimes I feel like, are we just speaking higher for ourselves that we're doing all these things? Are these real accomplishments? Is it like, you know, the imposter bragging or is it imposter syndrome that kicks in every second?
Tooba:And there's a lot of judgment, to be honest, around being a full time PhD student.
Louise:That's true.
Tooba:Because I don't get it whether we're supposed to we're expected to do all these things or not, because you get mixed reactions from people when you tell them that you're doing a lot of stuff. And there's also a self judgment coming within myself to me that, Oh, do I really deserve it? Should I really be doing this or focusing on my research? If I focus on my research, what's going to happen to the other things that are equally important for my career? That's a lot of things.
Tooba:And then for me, and I think for you as well, is added pressure from some time from our very loving and supporting family too. Yes, that's true. Because they're always keeping us check and keeping us on our toes. What are we doing? What are we doing with our PhD?
Tooba:Are we making progress or not? How many publishing papers we are working on? Are we getting paid for this project and that project or not? So this is a lot to, you know, navigate. How about you?
Louise:Yeah, so I come from France, so we don't have a different climate. That is pretty much the same. Good for you. Yes. I do have very supportive parents as well but that keep me in check from time to time am I writing witnesses or not am I not doing too much conference and I should be published and that kind of stuff.
Louise:But they always care for a career and for a PhD, which is very nice to have some support at home. As an international student, is more complicated is much more like navigating the system. Because even if I come from France, we do have a very different system for the hospital, for renting an apartment, for taxes everything is different and administration is already hard to navigate in your own country. So in a different country, in a different language, it's actually very hard sometimes. I went to NHS walk-in centre a couple of days ago and they asked me if I wanted a crutch and I didn't even know what was a crutch.
Louise:So yes, sometimes a language barrier can be stressful, mostly when you are in pain or when you are stressed and you don't understand what is happening. So I would say as an international student, is adding on everything we are doing and everything we are trying to balance. And sometimes it takes much time to do very simple administrative stuff. Even just write our thesis. This is not our language.
Louise:Reading some books, this is not our language. So sometimes, yeah, it takes time. And we have to be patient and we have to be nice with ourselves as well.
Tooba:Yes, you're right. We have to be kind to ourselves. Okay, Louis, so let's talk about our paintings today. What you have drawn?
Louise:So as I said, I drew two faced one is very happy because when I think about my PhD and everything I do, I'm genuinely happy about it and excited about all the projects. But there's also one phase that is a bit sad struggling, overwhelmed. Then I draw some bubbles, each one representing one aspect of my life. So we have the team, social events, hobbies, French teacher, PhD and then conference and every academic work. And then between the global, there is a roller coaster because the PhD journey for me is like a roller coaster.
Louise:And I am in a car on the roller coaster tiny, tiny me. And yeah, I'm just half the app of the Tata collection and I'm getting in the down of writing right now Yours is way much more colorful can you tell me what it is? Oh I can see a red, red mad face very mad
Tooba:Yes, that's true. I mean, I said I'm gonna draw a fairy, but I think it looks more like a witch now. But maybe that's how it is supposed to be. I love to be a witch, just I want to say for the record, as much as I like to be the fairy. So I draw one hospital, some paper and writing, scribbles, books.
Tooba:And this is the face, the red face you see. It has a lot of emotion. It is stress. It is overwhelming. It is crying, smiling.
Tooba:It's everything. Every emotion. And from my hands, I think a lot of colors are coming out because I am using my full potential to do my best in this PhD. I really want to close this episode by saying that we should give a very well deserving acknowledgment to ourselves. And I don't talk positively.
Tooba:You can ask Louise.
Louise:She's negative,usually.
Tooba:So we should really give credit to ourselves for doing great. And each of the ones is listening to this episode, I would also say you to take a moment and give credit to yourself for all the hard work that you're doing, because it's important.
Louise:Yeah, and be kind to yourself. Okay, Tooba, it's getting very late. It's already 09:23PM.
Tooba:Yeah, and you're about to kick me out, aren't you?
Louise:Yes, you need
Louise:to leave my apartment. I need to go to sleep. But we're going to see again tomorrow for a conference and to record the fifth episode about Imposter Syndrome and how to stay motivated during this long journey of the PhD.
Louise:So stay tuned. If you have enjoyed this podcast, search IOE Insights on your preferred podcast platform to listen to more episodes from the IOE.
Tooba:And a quick favor before you go, if you're listening on Apple Podcast or Spotify, we would really appreciate it if you could give the IOE Insights podcast a rating.
Louise:Five stars will, of course, be nice if you have been loving what you are hearing, that will help reach more people who are interested in knowing what we are all about.