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The Transform your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. Join Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles as they seek to inspire higher education faculty to adopt innovative teaching and learning practices.
Hey, this is Jared from Transform Your Teaching. We are starting a newsletter, and we are going to include in it some feature articles from some of our guests or some of our hosts. We are also going to share some previous episodes and maybe some behind the scenes stuff and also preview our upcoming series. You can subscribe by clicking the link that's in our description.
Narrator:This is the Transform Your Teaching podcast. The Transform Your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio.
Jared:Welcome to the Transform Your Teaching podcast. My name is Jared Pyles and with me is doctor Robert Ivan McDole. Is it too much? Did I give your middle name? Is that okay?
Rob:No, that's fine.
Jared:We are wrapping up our series on Competency based education and I think what we're going to do from here on out with these wrap up episodes per series, we did it with the previous series we did on generative AI. I think we'll just do a lessons learned where we come up each individually come up with three lessons that we learned. We don't share them with each other.
Rob:Mhmm.
Jared:And we just kinda go back and forth one on one and we talk about each lesson that we learned.
Rob:I like it.
Jared:I hope so because we planned to do that.
Rob:We did, and I'm ready.
Jared:And if you just said no, then we'd have to stop.
Rob:No.
Jared:Alright. That's it. Thank you so much for listening.
Jared:Alright. Here we go. Do you wanna go first or do me to go first? Okay. You go first.
Rob:So my top one is design in terms of competency, not time. We've talked about this time and time again on this series. We've heard from our guests. They've all said something very similar in the sense that time is the variable, not the constant. So when you design for CBE in terms of best practices, need to think about the content and what is required to meet those competencies and don't worry about where it falls in terms of time.
Rob:So that's my number one.
Jared:My number one is that good design exists and stays the same regardless of modality.
Rob:That is that is good.
Jared:So, like, the first thing I thought of was objectives, for example, and measurable objectives. It doesn't matter what modality you decide to go down. If you're doing lecture based, if you're doing direct instruction, if you're doing student centered, whatever it is, if you don't have good objectives, there's no easy way out with objectives in education anymore. There never really was. But regardless of if you pick CBE, if you pick, like I said, lecture based or even like, you know, project based learning, whatever you wanna use, it comes down to how you design it and it comes down to your objectives.
Jared:If you don't have good objectives, then regardless of what you do, it doesn't really matter because your the processes and the assessments and how you're getting to the end won't really matter. Yeah. It's all about good design, good backward design. It exists regardless of what modality it is. That's my number one.
Rob:That's your number one. So that was my number two.
Jared:Really?
Rob:So I I went maybe I didn't come at it from that level. I came at it from just in terms of best practices, create clear objectives across your program, across your course, and down to the smallest, you know, teachable level, like modules, whatever you wanna call it, topic unit.
Rob:But, obviously, you wanna get down to the smallest level of accessible material that you possibly can. So whatever I like to stick with behaviors, things that you can actually measure. It's a lot harder to measure how people feel about something or the affective domain. I know there's areas there, and we can get into that at another time.
Jared:No. But I I do wanna ask you though. What do you mean by behaviors? Because what's measurable in a behavior?
Rob:So, for instance, it's real simple.
Jared:For me. Kick a ball.
Rob:Yes. That's very generic.
Jared:Yes.
Rob:Kick it how? Where on the ball? What kind of spin on the ball? How fast should the ball be going? What part of your foot should you kick it with?
Rob:Can you kick it with the right foot or the left foot? I'm getting extremely detailed, but, you know, the greatest athletes say Lionel Messi. He knows exactly where to kick the ball most of the time. Sure. And he is able to repeat that.
Rob:We would call him many would say, he's the greatest of all time in the sport of soccer. Mhmm. But that is the kind of minutiae that I'm talking about in terms of behavior. So I can measure that. I can measure spin of a ball.
Rob:I can measure where he kicked it. Okay. You know, I can watch that. I can observe it. It's something that I can observe.
Rob:So when I say measure, measure is always talking about observability.
Jared:Sure. I was asking more about the behavior. Like, I was having you define behavior.
Rob:Something that someone does that's observable.
Jared:Okay. Okay.
Rob:Is that helpful?
Jared:Yeah. So like a baseball swing, for example, a lot of different elements to that. Would break it down to like when Joey Votto swings. Joey, please come back to the Reds if you're listening. Actually, you haven't played a game yet this season, so maybe don't.
Jared:So when he takes that initial step and then he the hips and then the bat and then the the shoulders and then
Rob:The hand placement, the wrists, everything.
Jared:Yeah. Okay. So that's measurable. That is measurable. But also with that though, it changes though, right?
Jared:So you've got, like, I'm sure Messi doesn't kick the same as he did 20 ago.
Rob:Right. But you still have somewhat of a standard.
Jared:Okay.
Rob:So it's repeatable. It's something that you can measure. And that's most measurements are always done off of some sort of central tendency kind of a thing.
Jared:Okay.
Rob:And that's why AI is so powerful.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:Because there's a middle to most things and especially behaviors.
Jared:Okay.
Rob:And if you break those down so I've said this before on the podcast in different series, you'd only measure what you wanna control.
Jared:Okay.
Rob:Right? And so if you wanna control something in your life, you measure it. And the more you measure it and you measure it effectively, in other words, the things that actually matter
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:You know, so I could measure
Jared:coffee.
Rob:Coffee, and you could measure certain things. But at the end of the day, does it really affect the taste if that's your objective? Okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, whether you used a stainless steel filter or used a paper filter.
Jared:Right.
Rob:Some people would say, well, that makes a difference in taste.
Jared:Yeah. I'd agree to that.
Rob:Yeah. Okay. Others would say, can't tell a difference. Right. So it just depends on what level you're trying to aim at.
Rob:And then there are things that probably don't make the hella beans worth the difference. Like, if they both create a grind size
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:That's what you need Mhmm. Then who cares name brand of the grinder?
Jared:My number two is that there is no one size fits all in education. This kinda goes against the whole idea that objectives, regardless of what you do, your objectives have to matter, and I think that still applies here. But I don't think there is a one size fits all. Like, one of the things that I went into this series, because like I've said repeatedly, I'm not totally in favor of CBE. It was good to hear from you and from our guests that we had on that said, yeah, CBE doesn't fit everywhere.
Jared:And I think that was a tremendous, encouragement to me because I feel like some people get so and I'm guilty of this. I get stuck in these camps of like, you've got to do this for everything because it's going to fit. And then you get into use cases where you're like, well, it doesn't really fit here, so what do I do? And it's like, I don't know. You know?
Jared:So I think CBE fits with certain elements. I won't give away my number three, but I feel like there is a place for CBE. It's just not everywhere. Like when we had Dr. Croto on and he mentioned, you know, talking about CBTE, theological education, theology education, that was like, well, that's perfect.
Jared:That's a great spot for it. But maybe it's just because of where I come from and my language arts background, I just don't see it fitting in certain places. It was good to hear, well, okay, then don't use it. I was like, oh, okay. You know?
Jared:It was one of those things I hadn't really considered before. It was like, well, if you're gonna do it, go all the way out. But some people are like, not really. So I don't know.
Rob:Well, and I think I think you'll see people approaching it from a a hybrid kinda like doctor Croto is doing. They're they're realizing they need to transition into it. Because if if they go just whole hog, society as a whole has not been operating like this in the past a hundred years. Right. So to to just stop doing that and go back to something that it was doing for thousands of years Sure.
Rob:Beforehand
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:You know, is is a little bit of a it's gonna hurt people. I mean, because you're gonna have students, and this is one of the common things that you have. You have students that go, well, this is not teaching. Right? Mhmm.
Rob:And you heard that from my wife when she talked about her experience with the education department here.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:And she had to do a CBE course, and she didn't want to. She was just I just want you to tell me what I need to do. I take a test. You tell me, you know, I'll take a c. I really don't care, but I don't wanna redo this assignment over and over and over
Jared:And that's honestly something that you see in a lot of high performing students, is that they don't just tell me, like I can get a tangent here?
Rob:Yeah, go for
Jared:When I was student teaching, I had a student in the honors English honors freshman English class that I taught and we did an open ended multi genre project for the end of To Kill a Mockingbird. And it was like open ended, I gave them a list of like 30 different genres, writing pieces they could do, writing genres, and you could pick five, whatever you wanna do. And she was like, just give me five. Give me five so I can do it. I was like, no, it's kind of up here.
Jared:She's like, no, it would stress her out to no end. And I know you've talked about that before where you've had a student who's like, I need you to tell me how to get an A.
Rob:Well, and it's it's I told you how to get an A. I I I lined that out for you.
Jared:Right.
Rob:But what it came down to is they didn't wanna do the work that was necessary to get the A. They wanted to be able to just take an exam because most of most of our educational system is tied up in really getting good at taking quizzes and essays and and those things. And if you do those well, that doesn't mean that you've learned. It just means you're really good at taking those tests. Yeah.
Rob:Right. Because if we go back to the definition of education or learning, which is change that endures. Yep. Right? And so with this system, our systems don't really test.
Rob:Some do, like nursing, PA, some of those where they have to carry those skills through. Right? Any of those that have professional tests that they have to take before they practice. I think on a whole, they're much more they're much more prepared for what's coming in their jobs because they can take those tests. They've had so much reflection or or repetition in those areas.
Rob:Now that doesn't happen everywhere.
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:And so a lot of people, they take tests, especially in the gen ed side. Right? They'll take those tests, they'll write those papers, and they'll forget everything.
Rob:Sure. Well, maybe not everything, but let's be honest, most
Jared:most of it. Pretty close.
Rob:I mean, I think you and I can attest to that in our own educational experience.
Jared:Mhmm. I do remember that arches are a part of Roman architecture. You know, the reason I I remember that is because I attempted to clip or, you know, finish the humanities course we have here on campus, and that was one of the questions I missed was that. And I got back to my dorm, and the guy who finished it was like, dude, you didn't know that, like, arches were a part of Roman architecture? I was like, no.
Jared:Who's supposed to know that? But I remember it now. You. Yeah. Apparently, I was supposed to know it.
Jared:Anyway. Alright. Alright. You're number three.
Rob:Number three. Number three. CBE best practice number three is design with the team. Design with the team. Design your course with the team.
Rob:Don't do it yourself.
Jared:This is a good foreshadowing for my number three, but go ahead.
Rob:Having others around who see things differently will only help you, especially if you struggle in certain areas. If you struggle with how do I make the implicit explicit. In other words, I grade this particular assignment and it's an important assignment. But if you ask me, how do I make sure that I'm being I know what it looks like. But for you to detail what the steps are that allows you to assess it, that might be a little bit more difficult.
Rob:So having somebody around who can help draw that out of you, who can help bring that out, if you're, for instance, the SME. So you get yourself an ID or someone who can ask these questions and and you you start doing that.
Jared:Just quickly define them.
Rob:So by SME, I mean subject matter expert. And then by ID, I mean instructional designer. Also, there are so many things that go into making a course. You know that. Right?
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:And there's no way that we can all be fabulous at every single one of them. It's just not possible. And so having others who can help in those places where you maybe struggle or you're not as strong is extremely helpful. And it serves the students well because they get a better product. They probably get more of what you actually wanted to begin with, and it gives you a better perspective and you don't feel maybe so alone.
Rob:So that would be my big takeaway. That was my third.
Jared:That was a good one.
Rob:Last one.
Jared:Last one, number three. This comes from when we had doctor Alita Chin on. Mhmm. And she threw in my face this idea that no one had talked to me about yet, that you could do face to face elements within a CBE environment. That to me is super interesting.
Jared:And I think that is where, if I were to park somewhere in the CBE world, I'd park my trailer in that spot. In zone CBE hybrid face to face thing. Because I can't get around the lack of community that's where you're siloed and you're on your own going through this.
Rob:Sure.
Jared:Maybe it's because I, even though I'm an introvert, I want to be a communal learner. I want to learn from others at the same time.
Rob:Right.
Jared:But I love the idea of that, okay, you have all these different competencies that you're working to individually, but you're within a group that's working on them collectively as well. You're assessed on your own, but you still have the group dynamic to it. Right. That to me is really interesting.
Rob:Yeah. So if you want
Jared:Big fan.
Rob:If you want, like, a modern day version of that, that's actually been going on for a little while now. I think he's still going. It's the Acton Academy.
Jared:Say it again.
Rob:Acton Academy.
Jared:Spell it.
Rob:A c t o n, I believe.
Jared:K. I'm looking it up.
Rob:It's a gentleman and is like minded individuals who basically turned education in the k through I don't know if he's k through 12. At the time, he was k through eight.
Jared:Okay. There's one in Columbus.
Rob:Oh, so he's he's expanded. He was down in
Jared:Oh, yeah.
Rob:He was down in Texas when I first met him.
Jared:Well, there's a lot now.
Rob:And so it's essentially a competency based program, but you do it in a regular and and I would say K-12 environment, but it's not the kind of environment that you and I are used to. So they go to a school.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:Right? They have activities. They have sports. I think they have other things.
Jared:Looks like they're pre K-8.
Rob:Yeah. So they're still pre K-8. But the reality is they've got eighth graders that start businesses.
Jared:And
Rob:it's all the students themselves become part of the educational process for each individual student. So they cheer each other on, you know, when one student's having a struggle in a particular with a particular competency. Right? They have others who've been through it before them. So it's not too dissimilar from what you experience or what you have experienced as a PhD student.
Rob:Yeah. You know, just think back that through this process in your mind. You know, you've had Hyesong. You've had myself. You've had others who've come along.
Rob:But in reality, you've been doing this thing by yourself.
Jared:That's true.
Rob:And it's meant to push you towards those competencies of being what it means you know, doing what it means to be a PhD, someone who is Yeah.
Jared:I never thought about that until you said that.
Rob:Professional in that area. And we have just encouraged you along the way because we've gone down that road before you.
Jared:Right.
Rob:Right?
Jared:Yep.
Rob:So if you can think of that process, just push it down into the K-8 sphere.
Jared:Yeah. But it's different though because, like, you're in a group or a community with others that are going at the same pace as you are. Right? Or I mean, like, I have other doctorate students that I'm working through and sometimes there's no real leader with that. It's more of a blind leading the blind in those cases.
Rob:Can be, but somebody comes to
Jared:the front. Usually. Yeah. It's yeah. I see what you're saying.
Jared:That makes sense.
Rob:I mean, those things happen naturally. God has created us with that. Number one, to be together.
Jared:Mhmm.
Rob:Right? And and to learn from one another, to encourage one another. That sounds very biblical when you when you actually get down to it.
Jared:Sure.
Rob:But we all are called to carry our own burden.
Rob:Right?
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:There's a certain sense in which we have to do the work ourselves. So what CBE does is it just makes that work painfully obvious. Like, here's what it means to succeed.
Rob:And here's all these people that can that can come along. Now, WGU is just the small small, you know, what's the word I wanna implementation that it's it's particularly unique.
Jared:Right.
Rob:And so it was a aspect, but it's not the whole of the CBE continuum.
Jared:Well, on the heels of my number three, and the reason I said foreshadowing based on your number three, is that I do plan on using the CBE modality for the course I'm building right now in which students are going through. And it's a preparatory course or a remedial course to prepare for one of our writing courses here at Cedarville. And so there's going to be an element in which they need to show mastery of grammar, like different rules and sentence structure and more like the level of grammar for college level writing. They need to show that. And there's not much time in the course to devote to just because here's where I take the idea from.
Jared:Shout out to Columbus State and Holly Finnegan over there in the developmental education department when I was in the k twelve space as an adjunct before I came here to Cedarville. I taught a remedial writing course, and part of it was on the side they were given a grammar textbook. And there was one day of instruction out of the week where we would sit down as a class and go over it was like nouns was one week, verb phrases, subject verb agreement. There's like one per week of the course. We sit down for one day and say, okay, here's the definitions, we'll go over it, maybe do some of the sample activities in the book, their workbook, they got The rest of the week they're on their own.
Jared:So they had a lab that was right across the hall from where the department was, and the students would go in in lab time and work on the exercises, and then they'd have a tutor in there to check over their work and help them with any mistakes. And then by the end of the week, they had to show mastery by taking a test over it. The tests were given to the instructor back to grade and then the instructor would go in and grade it and then give any feedback. And if you scored below a 70, you could retake it. So that's where the impetus comes from, is from that.
Jared:So I plan on using that, in this course. But you did say I shouldn't do it alone. So I'm asking you on air, will you help me with it? And I take that as a no.
Rob:Yes.
Jared:Wait, that was a no or yes, you'll help me?
Rob:Of course, I'll help you.
Jared:Alright. Good. So it's on record. It's gonna help me. Yeah.
Jared:So CPE, any final final thoughts? You like it? Okay. Great.
Rob:No. I I do I do like it. I I like I like the philosophical basis for it, which really focuses on the individual learner. It's really focusing on developing the individual where they're at to where God intends them to be. And that isn't necessarily looking exactly like me or exactly like you or whomever else.
Rob:It's whatever God's called them to be within his creation paradigm. And because of that, I think CBE is the better way to go because it's much more sensitive to those things. Instead of saying, well, we're gonna grade you on how you do in this particular time segment.
Jared:Yeah. I'm still not fully there, but I am closer to liking CBE than I was before.
Rob:Well, the reality is you actually do CBE all I the know. So there's something else that you don't like. And I think it goes back again to the community part where and I think it's just a matter of you haven't seen it yet or you haven't you haven't experienced it. Maybe you have, you just never thought of it in that way.
Jared:Yeah.
Rob:And I think that's really gonna be the key.
Jared:That's gonna do it for us on the Transform Your Teaching podcast. Thanks so much for listening. If you have any questions, please email us at CTLpodcast@cedarville.edu. Check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog. Join us on flip to talk about this series and any other future series or previous series you want to talk about.
Jared:And, yeah, thanks for listening.