Hiring Happy Hour

Human connection isn't a soft skill in recruiting, it's the strategy. In this episode of Hiring Happy Hour, Nicole sits down with Katrina Collier, six-continent keynote speaker, workshop facilitator, and author of three books including The Robot-Proof Recruiter and Reboot Hiring, to explore what it truly means to build a human-first talent function in this age of AI. Katrina makes the case that the intake conversation is the linchpin of great talent acquisition, and that technology and human connection don't compete, they compound. From defining success 12 months out to building true recruiter-manager partnership, this episode is a masterclass in the kind of strategic alignment that helps TA leaders drive faster, better outcomes. It's also a reminder that the most powerful thing AI can do in hiring is give recruiters back the time and space to be more human — which is exactly how the best hiring technology should be built.

Takeaways:
  • Recruiting at scale and recruiting with care are not opposing forces. Even in high-volume environments, the human touches that protect candidate experience, clear communication, consistent follow-through, and genuine engagement, are what separate companies that attract great talent from those that simply process applicants.
  • Quality of hire is nearly impossible to measure without first defining what success looks like. With 61% of TA professionals believing AI can help improve how quality of hire is measured, the opportunity is real — but it only pays off if humans do the intake work first. The best hiring technology can only match against criteria that humans articulate, which means the intake is not just a conversation, it is the foundation that makes every downstream tool and decision more effective.
  • Investing more time at the start of the process saves everyone time throughout it. Before sourcing a single candidate, ask whether the role can be filled internally, and what vacancy is actually costing the business. That preparation is what separates reactive recruiting from strategic partnership.
  • Ghosting applicants has real consequences. Research shows 87% of ghosted applicants experience depression or diminished confidence — closing every candidate, even at scale, is a baseline professional responsibility.
  • Hiring technology’s most underrated value? Improving human judgment. Tools that flag whether a hiring manager spoke more than the candidate in an interview, or whether biased language crept into the conversation, shift AI's role from process automation to decision support. 
  • The best hiring instincts aren't always built in a straight line. When evaluating talent for your  team, look beyond traditional credentials and ask what has energized this person and where they have shown adaptability. Those who have followed their curiosity tend to be the ones who solve your hardest problems.

Quote of the Show:
  • “You can't recruit without humans.” -  Katrina Collier

Links:

Ways to Tune In:

Creators and Guests

Host
Nicole Hammond
Producer
Erica Weser

What is Hiring Happy Hour?

Welcome to Hiring Happy Hour, where we celebrate the human side of hiring. Join host, Nicole Hammond, and as she pulls back the curtain on the people shaping the future of work- the innovators, dreamers, and change makers behind today’s hiring technology experience.

[00:00:00]

Nicole: Today's guest is different in the way that she will express her happy hour, and I think it's important because proud, and I'm proud of her as well. Um, so another topic very different than anything we've had on this show thus far, but something that [00:01:00] hopefully will relate to a lot of us, um, and we can take some amazing tidbits from it to pass on or even think about maybe doing something similar with our lives. She is a fearless human first champion of the recruiting profession. She helps companies fix the human connection issues that quietly destroy hiring, pushing back against the idea that tech alone can solve a people problem. on her early career experience as a recruiter, agency and in-house, she went on to help thousands, and I mean thousands, of talent acquisition professionals across the globe become better at their craft. She is a workshop facilitator, a six-continent keynote speaker, and the author of three books: The Robot-Proof Recruiting, Reboot Hiring, and The Damage of Words. Please join me in welcoming Katrina Collier. Welcome to the show,

Katrina: thank you so much for having me. That was quite an introduction.

it. Gonna get to that seventh continent.

No. Mm-mm. Well, y- [00:02:00] actually, yes. When I'm wealthy enough to fly there, I am not doing that boat trip. Mm-mm.

Nicole: Fair enough.

Katrina: I can't speak there obviously, but I will get to the seventh continent. It will happen.

Nicole: I believe you. So Katrina, we've talked a little bit about kind of the theme of this show

and what we really wanna get out of it, and so I'm gonna jump right in because I think that you have an amazing story. Um, so

Katrina: you.

Nicole: Our audience what your hiring happy hour is, meaning what are you proud of?

What has defined you? What has truly made your life journey, your career, um, something that you can be proud of?

Katrina: Well, it has to be the books. I think because I didn't ever expect to be a writer. Like, it just- I just had no idea that's what I was gonna do. So I, I set out to start, you know, training social recruiting back in the day. So really it started around the 2008-'09 crash, but really I didn't start [00:03:00] until 2012.

Um, and I was writing articles and tweeting a bit and doing all of this. And then I started speaking, and I was loving that. Like, I love being on stage, you know? Give me a microphone, happy, happy woman. Um, it's just... A- and it's surprising because I, I come from such trauma and such insecurity that it's quite amazing to me that that's where I've ended up loving.

But I was at a marketing day, like learning to be better at doing this business malarkey that, you know, nobody talks about when you start your own business. This is actually really hard, and I really don't like selling.

Nicole: Yes.

Katrina: Anyway, we're, we're at this day, and, um, Karen Skidmore was running it, and she facilitated a meditation and got us to go forward 12 months and look back at what we'd achieved.

And I saw a written book, and I'm like, "What? Where did that come from?" Like, I never knew I wanted to write a book. Yeah. It was mind-blowing. Anyway, within that year, 2018, Kogan Page came to me, thanks to Perry Timms, came [00:04:00] to me and asked me if I'd like to write a book. Now, I don't have a degree, and I failed year 11 English, so I was sitting there going, "What?"

Like, "What?" And out came The Robot-Proof Recruiter. I mean, I knew instantly what I wanted to write about. Um, and

Nicole: Oh,

Katrina: I think because I donated my royalties to charity, it helped because I really pushed it. I, I don't know, maybe if I was lining my own pockets I wouldn't have. But the recruiters just got behind it.

Everyone got behind it. Um, and it has- is consistently ranked very well on Amazon. I was asked to write a second edition, and then that's, of course, led on to other books. But I did not know that I was gonna be a writer, and I would say now I'm an author first and foremost. That's- it's my thing.

Nicole: what a defining moment,

and to see that and execute it in a year, you're,

you're quite the doer, because I know that books take quite a bit, but

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: All the content in your head.

Katrina: Yeah, no, I can, I can put out a book in about four months, but I actually write them,

Nicole: Wow.

Katrina: And I tend to stop and write, uh, 'cause I [00:05:00] can, 'cause I work for myself. Um, I don't... Well, other than Grammarly to just argue with about, you know, the Oxford comma, I don't use AI at all. Um, so I write them, which I think is really, yeah, human authored.

Nicole: human authored and powerful. Uh, tell our audience more about Robot-Proof Recruiting. Like,

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: Just a gist of what that is about.

Katrina: Do you know what's really funny? I was talking to somebody else this week who was just only suddenly came across my book and was like, "Oh, it's so on trend. It's, like, so important right now." I'm going, "Yeah, 2018 I came up with that title," like eight years ago. Um, uh, uh, because even then HR tech vendors were saying that they could replace recruiters And I mean, come on.

We're recruiters recruiting humans for other humans, and humans have thoughts, feelings, and emotions. They're quirky. They refuse to go where they're told. You know, you're not getting money out of a cash point. you're taking a human being and trying to [00:06:00] keep them in a process and hire them. so it was always about let's amp up our human skills.

Let's really bring that out. Let's do the intake better. Let's engage with people better. Let's sell our companies better and, get people who wanna work for us by being human first, with technology supporting. Um, it is funny because a lot of people think by the title outright that I'm anti-technology. I have been called several names over the years, but no, I'm not.

Of course, I'm not. I'm an average user. Like, you know, I started my business and I was using a mobile phone and Skype, you know? I've worked remotely since 2009. Like, you know, I use tech. It's how you use it and where you use it, and, it has to be supporting. You need humans to do this.

You can't recruit without humans.

Nicole: I agree, and I feel like a number of our, listeners, but also the people we've had on the show have been echoing this from different perspectives, right?

Katrina: [00:07:00] Hmm.

Nicole: About how important it is to have humans because of the emotional piece that AI cannot pick up. I think it speaks to where we were and where we are when you talk about writing this book in 2018, and

still the same problem.

Technology's not here to replace, it's here to support.

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: Tell our audience where you feel

that technology can support the hiring process

Katrina: Sure.

Nicole: No, no, no, no, no.

Katrina: Can I go no, no, no, no first, because I've just really had a random thought that... Okay.

Nicole: Yes.

Katrina: I ha- I got a Google alert 'cause I have a Google alert set my, set up my name, and I really do think people should do that, especially if they've got an unusual name, right? You know, if you're Bob Smith, probably not.

But anyway, the Google, the Google alert brought to me an article from 2014 that I wrote for HR Review. Bit random to just be told about it now. But anyway, I couldn't remember writing the article, and I opened it up and what was it talking about? How hard it is to engage people. [00:08:00] In 2014, I was saying it's really difficult to get someone's attention and to get them to reply, and so on.

And you're like 12 years on, it's so bad. I mean, we've had... We've gone through the, you know, as Steve Levy calls them, the INMOLs and, you know, the over congestion in our LinkedIn inboxes. People have switched off and now AI tools are mass messaging. So for me, it's the using it for sourcing I'm deeply concerned about.

I, I know it has its place, but are we adding in more bias? Uh, you know, are you looking at the results you're getting back and making sure that- you're, you're getting a balance of gender, let alone anything else. You know, just checking it.

So I have my hesitancy there. Where I love it is the, the nagging, the pushing, the prodding, the reminding, the, the calendar sorting, the booking interviews, uh, you know, all of those, recording meeting notes. Um, I love, uh, one of the [00:09:00] tools, I hope it still exists, that would sit in on the interview to, to hear whether the interview was balanced.

Was the manager talking in, uh, uh, the same amount that the candidate was talking so there was an equal conversation? Was the conversation biased? Were they using any red flag words? And so on. So I love stuff like

Nicole: Oh. Oh.

Katrina: That's really about making it. But I'm, there's areas I'm like, "Mm, mm, You

Nicole: you're mm-- I'm like, "No,

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: No, no," right?

Katrina: Yeah, I'm like,

Nicole: I mean, I hear

Katrina: " Eh."

Nicole: You. I hear you, and I, and I think it's a fair question to ask our audience, right? Like, where do you see it supporting

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: Where could it be providing bias? And

Katrina: Yeah, and...

Nicole: and hiring process automation, totally

Katrina: Yeah.

I know there's a big push for self-service hiring managers in certain aspects, and then that worries me, right? If it's a repeat role and they've spent a lot of time thinking about it, I'm okay with that.

But a lot of the time that the hiring manager hasn't had any leadership [00:10:00] development and, and training. I mean, there's something like 82% of managers in the UK are accidental, and the stat will be just as high in the US. And, and you're

Nicole: Sure.

Katrina: The recruiter's job is to get them to articulate who they really need, and it's like, so don't try and automate that.

And, and there's this kind of push for it, and it's like, yes, automate after they've had training and perhaps are really great at expressing who they need, and they can identify who they need, and they know how to correct the questions and all of that. But please don't automate that bit. You know, automate the nagging, chasing.

Can we get rid of the black hole, you know? I'd love to, I would love to see it. If I can tell when my pizza's gonna arrive, why can't I tell where I am in the application? Why can't I see? I mean, imagine if it showed when recruiters opened just your resume. Woo-hoo. Imagine the fear that would go through every TA department.

But wouldn't you love to know? Katrina Collier opened my resume at this time, and then, you know, came back to me at this time or, you know, gave [00:11:00] you a reason to chase. Yeah, mm, can't see that happening, but I'd love that

Nicole: would provide a lot of accountability in companies, right? Like

we would have to be much more accountable. Yeah, it's great.

What about high volume, right?

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: A little bit about, you know, writing your own resume

versus AI.

We've talked about how sourcing is important, but what about those roles where a lot of those individuals applying don't have much experience, they're just looking for a job.

What would be your perspective as to where technology could support?

Katrina: I was thinking I'm gonna go negative again. God, must be Friday.

Nicole: go, go.

Katrina: because I'm hearing this from people who don't work in recruitment. So I'm sitting on a train talking to these two people, and they're talking about the, the- they as non-recruiters were being inundated with applications for roles because people are setting up the AI tool to write their resume within seconds and send an application.

And recruiters will tell you they're getting these masses of applications, and then they'll contact and they're [00:12:00] like, "Hey, Nicole." And you're like, "I didn't apply for that" 'cause you don't even... Like, oh. And then there's the poor genuine job seeker who's trying the old way and doing everything, jumping through every single hurdle to apply, who never hears anything 'cause you've got this noise.

Now, I don't know if this works or not, but this man on this train, seriously fascinating. He works in, um, gaming. I'm not gonna say which company or anything. Um, but he said he heard from somebody else... Again, no idea if this works, but I thought it was brilliant. They put the job up, they get all the AI bot applications, and then they take the job down and put the exact same job up again.

So they delete the job, put it up again, and apparently the bots go, "Oh, I've applied for that one," and they don't reapply, and then you get up. Now, I don't know if it works, but I'd love someone to try and let me know. Um, I thought that was really clever. So for the job seekers, it's like, y- really think about, yeah, you wanna use it to make your resume better, but you don't wanna sound like everybody else because what's happening is the poor [00:13:00] TA pros are going, "Oh my God, they're all the same."

Like, what sets you apart? Where's your voice? Where's your personality? Because you've become very boring and perfectly matched to the job description.

Nicole: But maybe in some high volume, that might be just what they need, right? Like you can do

one, two, and three, check, you're hired, right? But to your

point, like gaming industry, those are probably developers, very tech-savvy,

even entry-level need to have more expertise. I think that's a brilliant thing.

We might need to try that. Um,

Katrina: Yes.

Nicole: I don't know if you remember this, but you remember a lot. Do you remember when Google put out their like, it was billboards and it

had a QR code, and it

Katrina: Yes.

Nicole: Ad, and the QR code was basically they would code all these things and it would get them into the application

process.

Katrina: Yeah And the other one I've seen as well

Nicole: that.

Katrina: Was if you viewed the page source on some of the websites of some of the companies, and there would also be like, "Come and join us," and things like that behind in the, in the source code [00:14:00] behind the page that would attract developers.

Nicole: I love it.

Katrina: Back in the day, At-

Nicole: love it.

Katrina: At- Atlassian did a road trip around Europe.

They left Australia and came over to Europe and, and literally went round stealing developers. And it just like, there was so much that happened back in the day. Um, I think there's a bit of... We've lost a little bit of that the

Nicole: Yes. Yes, we

Katrina: so many tools.

Nicole: That fun.

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: Let's get back to the book,

and let's get back to the hiring process. I wanna hear your perspective on, and I say the bad word, AI and quality of hire.

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: Heard that 61% of TA pros believe AI can help improve how they measure quality of hire. I wanna get Katrina's thoughts on this.

Katrina: I, I, I don't know. I'm sure I can even answer that question 'cause I don't really know how you measure quality of hire. I would like to, uh, measure quality of retention, quality of how long, how long do they stay, what projects do they deliver in the 12 months? 'Cause I think that would say [00:15:00] more about the real issues that you've got going on.

So I'm not sure that I can answer that. Because to me, it... I always go back to when I wrote "The Robot-Proof Recruiter," I got to chapter five, which is all about the intake, and actually my second book, "Reboot Hiring," which is actually for company leaders, so it's for recruiters to give to their company leaders and hiring managers.

It, it's, it talks a lot about the intake, and I think there needs to be a lot more time spent there before we even worry about quality of hire. Like, okay, so Bob resigned, and we think we just need another Bob, but we don't because going forward, actually, we, we need a Nicole. We need somebody with all of these skills.

And, and the managers, again, without the leadership training are all panicking and going, "Oh, just give me a Bob. Just give me a Bob. He's leaving." And, and not thinking because the TA teams, uh, have been, um, streamed back, a lot of them, not necessarily [00:16:00] in healthcare, but in a lot of areas are very streamed down now, and they don't have time.

They're still being very reactive, not proactive, because they're underfunded and under-resourced and under-appreciated and under-everythinged. Um, and so they don't necessarily know how to do that. So really, how can we measure quality of hire with AI or not with AI if actually we're not spending enough time at the beginning?

And it really, honestly, until I wrote "The Robot-Proof Recruiter" and I got people like Steve Levy and Mia Shikanin and Tangie Pettis to help me with it, did I suddenly go, "Oh my God, I never did this right. How on earth did I recruit so well?" It was just luck.

Nicole: A lot of people have talked about the humanized component towards the end,

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: About, like, when you get down to the one-on-one interview,

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: Talking about it even before you think about posting the job. And this is

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: And you're so right, could be the time, here we go, we're gonna save ourselves, where you define quality of hire. "Hey, hiring manager, what does success look like?

What is that measure?" [00:17:00] And that's what you look at

Katrina: Yeah. what you do is you don't ask them that question 'cause it's such a has- hard question. What you do is you give them one of Steve Levy's questions. They're in my book, both of my books. Sorry. He, he literally wrote that ch- he didn't, but he's a huge part of it.

Like, how will you know at the end of 12 months you've hired the right person? So what you do is you take them forward. You could do like that meditation where I was taken forward. You could literally say, "Right, it's 12 months' time, we're looking back. What has this person done?" And they'll go, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, and they won't be like this, but because the last person burnt a client, so let's make sure they get on with the team, and blah, blah, blah." And they will just start.

Nicole: all their

Katrina: But when you say like, "Define success," they'll go, "Um, uh, um, they stay, they work, um," yeah, like it's just really hard. So sometimes we just need to make it more human with it, and lose a bit of the, yeah, and a little less corporate speak 'cause that's

Nicole: Yep.

Katrina: You know, they're pushed into that. None of us are taught how to do that. We don't necessarily want to do that, but,

so yeah. [00:18:00] Anyway. appreciate it. I think it's great. I love that. other tips can we give our audience? Because I

Nicole: think now we've hit on something that's pivotal that everyone in recruiting should focus on, and it's the intake, whether

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: Or not, right? Have that conversation with the manager,

and maybe you are aligned to a specific manager, so you know them,

and you don't have to do this as often.

Maybe you're not, but what are the things that they should talk about aside from what you just said

around the visionary, what does it look like 12 months from now?

Katrina: Um, in, um, Reboot Hiring!, I talk, um... I've got- I quoted, bless Elizabeth Lemp- Lemko, who's sadly passed, but she talks about like, uh, should you be hiring? Basically, if we have a downturn, if we have like a 20% downturn, are we gonna be able to keep this person? So it's like it's even questioning should we be hiring.

This is how much I want talent acquisition to partner with the managers at the beginning of the process, and I want them to fight for the time. No meeting means no working on the role. Now, I [00:19:00] appreciate th- they're different, right? I'm very much in the, the- Low volume. I'm not in the high volume. That's not my wheelhouse.

I've never worked in it. I've always worked in the finding people who are hard to recruit. But the more time you spend on either of those at the beginning of the process, the less time they're gonna spend interviewing people that aren't right. So when they push back, you can go, "Well, I'm trying to save you time, money, and hassle," which is literally the subtitle of Reboot Hiring, Saving Time, Money, and Hassle.

Um, and that is that spending the time at the beginning, and that is clearing everything. Do we have somebody we can promote and backfill? Is that possible? Like, who's the flight risk in the team while this role's open? Like, what's the cost while the role's open? You're asking these tough questions that make your manager think and will gain you their respect.

And then, of course, you're also... Yeah, and then you're also, as you said, defining like what is it gonna look like? What's the quality so I know what I'm matching? But then it's the partnership. Like, how are you gonna run the relation- h- run the [00:20:00] process? Like, I'm gonna do this. You're gonna do this. And so that's your moment to say, "This is what I do."

Because managers don't know what you do. That's why they tend to say stuff like, "I've been recruiting for 30 years." No, you haven't. You've been interviewing for 30 years. You don't know about the malarkey that happens before. Ooh, that's such a British word. The stuff that comes before. Yeah. Yeah. I, I s- I, I should, I should use an Australian one, but it'd be really rude.

But it's, it's, it's defining, like I'm gonna go out to market. I'm gonna go and source people. I'm gonna advertise people. I will vet those people against what we've just discussed, and then I'm gonna bring them to you. And then you agree when they're gonna communicate with you, how they want to communicate with you, and so on.

But I promise if every single recruiter spent more time there, their entire process would be so much easier.

Nicole: This is great because I also think I'm feeling empowered, right? I'm not a

recruiter today,

but I've been one.

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: Even hiring manager, you get to know that individual.

You build that collaboration, that relationship. [00:21:00] And then to your point, it is not this lemming process of checking the box, but it

is a choose-your-own-adventure based on the strategy you feel

will help to execute this type of hire that

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: Hiring manager needs.

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: I, I think this is

great.

Katrina: It's

Nicole: all

Katrina: taking people forward.

Nicole: Try it.

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: It, try it, try it. Get the

book.

Katrina: Books.

Nicole: We'll share more about where you can get it.

Katrina: Yeah, 'cause what you do is you give one to your hiring manager, and you read the other one.

Nicole: there we go.

See, look, It was, it was like writing, it was like writing the other side. It was the, I want to write one for them, so I've written one for both sides.

I think that is awesome. let's, let's pivot

Katrina: Okay.

Nicole: Also wrote another

Katrina: I did. Mm-hmm. I

Nicole: it's important for us to learn more about the Katrina-

Katrina: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: You know, that has evolved. Like, what brought you to being this author,

being this individual that, you know, donates to charity her, her royalties? Like,

that's fascinating, and also just all the accreditation you've given to the [00:22:00] collaboration you've had, but your perspective is spot on.

Katrina: Mm. Mm.

Nicole: How did this all come about?

Katrina: It's funny, once you start... Once you realize you're an author, it's like they brew. It is, like, it's a very strange thing to say, but I can already feel, I can already feel my next book. It's brewing. I know exactly what it's gonna be. It just hasn't come out yet, and it's like they bubble up.

I think an artist would be the same, or a musician.

Nicole: Sure, or a

musician,

Katrina: the,

Nicole: Hey.

Katrina: It's, uh, yeah, it's brewing. I can't... The next one's gonna have the best title. I'm not telling you what it is, but it's just, yeah, it's gonna, like, slap people in the forward. Um, and I, I wanted to write about my healing. So I, m- my mother was a narcissist.

She emotionally and physically abused the four of us. Um, but this is my story about my healing journey. Um, and I wanted to write how I healed for a number of reasons. One being, I fell into it. I didn't... I, I [00:23:00] went to see Michelle Zelli about my career, and she went, "Mm, hang on just a second," and just took me back over here and just started peeling the layers of my defensiveness, of my, uh, insecurities, of my self-hatred, and just got to my core wound and helped me heal, connected me to my inner child.

And things that I didn't even know about, like I didn't understand narcissism or codependency, or my dad the enabler, or any of it. I just had no idea. Um, and I changed so much from the journey that I wanted to share it. But I also wanted to demystify what I've done because people are terrified. You know, my sister won't touch it, and she's a huge reason I wrote it.

And I'm like, "You don't go rip the lid off Pandora's box." And even s- now, there are other ways to heal that you don't even need to go revisit it. You don't have to just do talking therapy. Um, so I literally wrote out everything I did, and I've done weird and wacky stuff. I've done past life stuff, [00:24:00] angelic...

You name it, I've done it. And I just wrote it all up. And I thought, "I'll just put it out in the world and see what happens." And, you know, I'm sure some people are like, "Really? She's done all of that?" And yeah, no, 'cause I've done that in conjunction with my business, um, and just become fearless from being

Nicole: Yeah.

Katrina: With...

I was just ruled by fear before that, people to heal their crap.

Nicole: came to mind to describe you right now, Katrina, is brave. That's

very brave,

Katrina: Yeah.

Nicole: To face your fear,

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: To unwind it,

Katrina: Mm.

Nicole: And in moments like that, right, you probably go to places where it, it's scary and even more- fear comes to mind, and you continue to conquer. And now to share it in the hopes that you help someone else,

Katrina: I mean, the, it- I do get messages from people and it's, it's the ... 'Cause I, I write manual-esque. It, it's how I write. I've, I ... It's like a bit teaching and explaining words and, you know, so it's like, "I went to this and it did this," and it ... You know, like rather than ... [00:25:00] I, I don't write as in a story. I don't sort of have explained conversations I had with Michelle.

It's more like this sort of treatment and the reason it worked and ... Um, but I think, yes, it was scary, but yet it's really funny. I started ... The change was so fast because it was inner child work, so I learned to parent myself. And the change was so fast that actually it was almost addictive, because I would leave floating out of the session like, "Wow, I feel so..."

Even if I'd been sobbing, even if my inner child was speaking at my imaginary mum or dad and I was like, "Ah, la, la, la, la," you know, being horrid, um, letting it all out. It ... But even then, I would still leave and it was almost like, "I have to go back, I have to go back," until you get to the point where you're like, "Okay, I'm done."

Like, "I've, I've healed that section." And then I'd go

Nicole: Yeah.

Katrina: Find another way, you know, with the spiritual side. Um, did some amazing... I mean, the past life stuff is fascinating. [00:26:00] Um, and your body feels it, so it's even when you're skeptical and even... But science is already proving the past life, so I, I'm not too concerned what anyone thinks of that.

Um, but that was extremely powerful as well on a healing perspective.

Nicole: okay, we're gonna play a game of this or that.

Katrina: Okay.

Nicole: you ever played this?

Katrina: Um, I don't think so, but let's roll with it.

Nicole: Okay, so I'm gonna give you two options. You can choose one,

you can choose both,

Katrina: Okay.

Nicole: You can not. Um, and we're just gonna go through a number of topics.

Katrina: Okay.

Nicole: Okay. Uh, resume or LinkedIn profile?

Katrina: Really it should be that somebody applies with a resume, but the LinkedIn profile says the same thing. However, job seekers don't know that and they don't fill out their LinkedIn profiles. And actually, the worst LinkedIn profiles out there are recruiter LinkedIn profiles.

Nicole: Find me or find you

Katrina: What do you mean?

Nicole: from a sourcing, from a sourcing

Katrina: Oh

Nicole: for a job?

Katrina: Both, because, you know, you should advertise, but honestly, [00:27:00] it depends on the role. If you're looking for s-

Nicole: Yes.

Katrina: That are in high demand, go find them. Use your network,

Nicole: Love Find them under rocks. I

love

Katrina: love sourcing, so,

Nicole: I've heard. Career path or whatever comes my way.

Katrina: Oh, for me personally, whatever comes my way. But what I've learned, and actually this is a tip for people, follow the energy. And by that, I mean, if you ask me to do something and I slump, I'm going to say no. If you ask me to do something and I sit bolt upright and go, "Ooh," the answer's yes, and that's how I've defined my career path, by following the stuff that makes me sit up.

So it sounded random, but it's actually ... It might be ... I didn't know I was gonna be an author. Imagine if I was on a career path and I missed being an author. So it's like, what does your heart want? What does soul want? What makes you sit up and buzz?

Nicole: Love that. Recruiting at scale or recruiting with care?

Katrina: Mm. Both. Recruit at scale with care. Um, the ... Do you know what? There is just no reason ... [00:28:00] The 87% of applicants that are ghosted end up down or depressed. There is no excuse not to close somebody. So even if you're recruiting at scale, just close people. They know they're not the only applicant, so

down or depressed.

That is wrong.

Nicole: but that's a good point. Good point. reward or recognition?

Katrina: Mm. Mm. I'm a probably a neither, for me personally.

Nicole: All

Katrina: Oh, thank you. Ready?

Okay.

Nicole: Switch.

Katrina: Okay.

Nicole: Or ocean?

Katrina: Mountains and then ocean.

Nicole: Okay.

Katrina: As in, I would rather go climb, like I've climbed Kilimanjaro and Kanabolu and mountains in Peru, and yeah, I would rather do that, but then I'm quite happy to sit on a beach for at least a day, but no more,

Nicole: Yep. Period. Uh, cat or dog?

Katrina: Dog. Silly question.

Nicole: Um, vacation or staycation?

Katrina: Oh, no, vacation. I would go away.

Nicole: eat out or cook

Katrina: Eat out.

Nicole: Yeah.

Katrina: Yeah, I can do many things. Cooking is not one of [00:29:00] them.

Nicole: Me too. Katrina, tell our audience your three books, where they can learn more about you,

Katrina: Sure.

Nicole: connect with you.

Katrina: if you Google me, I come up everywhere, which is quite worrying. Um, of course, it, you can, um, of course, connect with me on LinkedIn. If you do, please tell me that you heard me here, 'cause I tend to like explained invites to connect more than anything.

Nicole: Sources. You like sources.

Katrina: I, I like people to write a, like, "Hi, I'm connecting because..."

Not a, you know... You, you, you know what it's like. You look at them and go, "Hmm." So please let me know. Um, so it's the ro- for the recruitment, it's The Robot-Proof Recruiter, which is for recruiters, Reboot Hiring, which is for your company leaders and managers. I've basically done the job of making your life easier by telling them to stopping idiots.

Uh, oh, no, I didn't say that out loud, did I? And, um, The Damage of Words is my memoir. So if you have anything that you just think, "Do you know what? I'm just not happy. Uh, there's just stuff in my life I'd like to heal," I hope it inspires [00:30:00] you to, to heal.

Nicole: Thank you, Katrina.

Katrina: It.

Nicole: Think that you are amazing and brave, and not only for the recruiting world, but just for, you know, self-awareness and, uh, help out there. So

Katrina: Thank you.

Nicole: Uh, thank you for your words of wisdom. Uh, for all of you listening, this is another episode of Hiring Happy Hour. We hope you've enjoyed, and please reach out to Katrina. She's honest, she's brave, and she will tell you how it is. Bye, everyone.

[00:31:00]