Journey to the Sunnyside | Mindful Drinking & Alcohol Health

Welcome back to Journey to the Sunnyside. Today I’m joined by Merrilee Burke, a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 20 years of experience, specializing in alcohol moderation, trauma, and eating disorder recovery. Merrilee reached out because she’s been noticing a shift with clients lately in how they talk about sober curious and alcohol-free culture. Not some huge backlash, but enough of one to make it worth exploring. So today we talk about what’s changing, why some people may be pushing back, and what they may really be reacting to underneath it all.


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Mike Hardenbrook
#1 best-selling author of "No Willpower Required," neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.

What is Journey to the Sunnyside | Mindful Drinking & Alcohol Health?

Exploring the science of drinking less, from alcohol cravings and habit change to moderation, naltrexone, and building a healthier relationship with alcohol. Whether you're sober curious, cutting back, or thinking about quitting, this podcast meets you where you are.

Journey to the Sunnyside is a top 1% podcast reaching over 500,000 listeners every week. Through expert interviews, neuroscience research, and real stories, we cover what actually works — mindful drinking, behavior change, medication-assisted approaches, harm reduction, and more.

Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast. Brought to you by Sunnyside, the leading program for changing your relationship with alcohol. Start your free trial at sunnyside.co.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in our episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. If you're concerned about your drinking, please consult a medical professional. This podcast is not medical advice.

Speaker 1:

Today I'm joined by our friend Merrilee Burke, a licensed therapist specializing in alcohol moderation. Merrilee reached out because she's been noticing a shift with clients lately in how they talk about sober curious and alcohol free culture. Not some huge backlash, but enough of one to make it worth exploring. So today we talk about what's changing, why some people may be pushing back, and what they may really be reacting to underneath it all. Okay.

Speaker 1:

Today, we're here with Merrilee Burke. Merrilee, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me back.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's fun to hang out because not only are you a great guest, but we're also friends. And today, we'll break a little bit of my typical format with very structured questions, and we're just gonna have a conversation around some trends broader, but also things that you've noticed inside of, your practice as well. So thanks again for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Sounds great.

Speaker 1:

Alright. So let's do it. You reached out in an email, and you said that, you know what? Mike, this might be an interesting talk topic that I've been noticing a shift with some of my clients and how they talk about alcohol in the Sober Curious movement. So what are you actually hearing?

Speaker 2:

Well and and to be clear, it's not really a backlash toward moderation or toward mindful drinking. It seems like it's a little bit of a discomfort or rejection around the culture around that, how it's sort of it seems like there's this new pressure to conform to the sober curious movement. So some of my clients have said, I used to feel pressured to drink in social settings, and now I feel pressured not to drink or to drink the right way, whatever that means. And so they find themselves in social settings kinda looking around saying, is that person drinking? Is that person drinking?

Speaker 2:

Is that a nonalcoholic beer? Should I have a nonalcoholic beer? Can I have a regular beer? And what gets lost is what they want and what's best for them and for their journey in, you know, changing their relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's interesting. You know? I I do think about that a little bit more, and I think that people this Sober Curious, I think, thing came around where people saw and they were like, oh, this is what I've been thinking about and identify with, and so they latched onto it. And it's been amazing because I think a big part of Sober Curious is giving people the control without having to declare abstinence only to actually consider something that was a change without admitting some sort of fault or disorder.

Speaker 1:

And so I think it was really empowering at first, but then also it might be pushing on people that weren't necessarily thinking about it altogether. But all of a sudden, they're maybe pressured to start thinking about it because the social norms are shifting from one side to the other.

Speaker 2:

Right. And I think, you know, sometimes people get caught up in trying to figure out what is normal now. What is the right thing to do? What's the appropriate thing to do? And they get kinda lost in that sometimes.

Speaker 2:

And then particularly, I think around dry January, there has been a little bit of a backlash that I was noticing in December and January with people talking about it. And the thing with a thirty day break from drinking, it can be really great. It can be helpful. But it's not necessarily right for everyone at a specific time. So for instance, there's this kind of this February 2 hangover that has become really common because people kind of white knuckle it through January because they think they're supposed to do that.

Speaker 2:

Then they will go overboard on February 1 and then they feel like garbage on February 2. And then they're kinda back to their old habits. And I kind of equate it to someone who doesn't know how to swim. If you don't know how to swim and you spend the entire summer not going in the pool, you're not gonna drown. Right?

Speaker 2:

You're gonna be safe. But that doesn't mean you now know how to swim. You know, as soon as you get back in a pool, you're gonna have the same problems. And it's like that with moderation. If someone doesn't really know how to drink in moderation and they take a long break, when they go back to drinking, the same problems are gonna be there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a great analogy. I I like that.

Speaker 1:

Do you think that I think we both agree. Like, there is some backlash, but it's not by and large. Right? Like, that's not what we're talking about here. But the fact that there is to something that's positive and has been impactful for many people's lives is interesting.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's interesting, and it's also a sign that we're beyond a trend. We're more in a movement and that it's culturally significant. And so when culturally significant things happen, people will resist as I think an indicator that it actually is beyond just a trend. Do you think that that's what we're seeing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. And and I even think backlash might be too strong of a word because I'm not hearing people say, okay. Well, if no one's drinking in January, I'm gonna drink extra in January. It's nothing like that.

Speaker 2:

It's more of just a resistance and a and a questioning of, like, woah. Maybe this thing got a little too prescriptive. Because you're right. The point of Dober Curious and moderation movements is to question the old norms and for people to find out what works best for them. Taking in new information about how alcohol impacts one's health and taking in, you know, new social landscapes and figuring out, you know, what is best for the individual as opposed to new rules that are just different from the old rules, but they're still rules that might not fit everyone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Totally. I agree. So if anybody's listening and they're probably wondering, like, what do you mean by backlash? I think that or or whatever we wanna call it because we that's probably not it.

Speaker 1:

Or let's just say pushback or criticism or the other side of the coin. So when we're talking about it, you mentioned some people feeling the pressure in the other direction when maybe they're in social situations that maybe they wanna drink and they're not and then all of a sudden, they're feeling bad and thinking about things that they didn't. But there's other things in some public figures that have said things. So I'm gonna bring this up, and I wrote down some notes so I get it kinda right. You mentioned Scott Galloway.

Speaker 1:

I'm a big fan of his. He has some amazing content out there. However, anybody else, I guess, agrees or aligns with his opinion, but nonetheless, I still think he he puts a lot of good things out there. He's a podcaster and a professor, and he put out a pretty controversial video or maybe more than one arguing that young people should drink more that, quote, risks at 25 year old liver outweighs is outweighed by the risk of social I isolation. So, you know, I think that comment resonates with a lot of people.

Speaker 1:

And, before I comment in on it, what do you think, that he's actually responding to underneath that statement?

Speaker 2:

I think he's touching on something that a lot of people are aware of and concerned about, which is the lack of socialization, people being more lonely. They're having more difficulty connecting. And I think there is a conversation to be had there about alcohol's role in that. But I think especially think it's an oversimplification. And I think especially when you're talking about this younger generation, you can't really talk about their behavior without taking into account social media and this Internet culture that they have that we didn't grow up with.

Speaker 2:

And also economics because a lot of them don't really necessarily have the finances to go out and drink. You know, going to a bar and drinking costs money. And if somebody doesn't have their own home, it's hard to have friends over and have drinks because if you're living with your parents, that kind of might hinder that. Right? So I think, you know, especially if we're talking about the younger generation, I think making it just about alcohol is an oversimplification.

Speaker 2:

But where I do kinda think he's onto something is this conversation around social anxiety, which I think a lot of people when that term became really popular, people started to think, oh, that's something I have. I have social anxiety and it's a problem that makes it hard for me to socialize. When I think in reality, social anxiety is a feeling that we all have in different settings, and it's very normal and natural. And so let's say, you know, a coworker invites you to a party at their house and you you like your coworker, but you don't really know them that well, and you're not gonna know anybody at this party. It is extremely natural to be anxious in that situation.

Speaker 2:

And I think anybody would be anxious. And I think socializing has an inherent anxiety to it. And that's kinda where alcohol comes in because you show up at the party, you're nervous, you don't know anybody, and you have a drink, and that might help you to relax and be more comfortable in this uncomfortable situation. So I think in that regard, taking alcohol out of the mix does tend to make social anxiety potentially more of a problem for some people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I I agree with you on the oversimplification, and I think he's a smart enough guy to know that he probably did that to some regard, and it's probably something used as a catalyst to open up a deeper conversation. But I think the oversimplification is really related to the fact that at his generation, my generation, your generation, that we used alcohol as a shortcut to get all those social benefits that he's talking about. But as you mentioned, it's not the same world these days. And so I don't know that that would translate specifically.

Speaker 1:

It might in some ways, but it's also discounting, I think, the negative consequences when it comes to alcohol, which could be you know, most people will, when they're young, will age out of that irresponsible drinking. That's just statistically that will happen, but not everybody. And we already know that there's there's negative consequences to drinking that can lead to accidents and fights and all kinds of bad things. So I think just saying the impact on the liver simplifies it as a decent solution for young people that has low consequence. But I think I think what I'm getting at here is that the real oversimplification is how do we address this issue of isolation, of loneliness, of lack of socialization?

Speaker 1:

And I'll I'll throw this stat out that he did quote is that forty five percent of men, 18 24, have never asked a woman out in person. And sixty three percent men under the age of 30 are not even pursuing a relationship. So I think the deeper conversation is how do we address this generation's lack or inability to have the same social environment that we did.

Speaker 2:

Right. And I don't know that alcohol is necessarily a solution to that. I don't know that I mean, maybe men are more likely to approach women if they've been drinking. I don't know that a woman is more likely to say yes if she's been drinking. If anything, she might kinda just say, get out of my face.

Speaker 2:

I don't wanna deal with you right now. I think what's going on between men and women and boys and girls, teenagers, is a lot deeper than just loneliness. I think a lot of it has to do with constructs around men and women in dating that have existed for a long time that are outdated and that women in particular are now rejecting. And I think that's something Scott does get wrong when he says he has this line, and I'll give it to him. It's a good line where he says, get drunk and make a series of bad decisions.

Speaker 2:

And it's a good line, but I think that hits differently to women than it does to men. Because thinking about the bad decisions you might make, and I'm sure a lot of boys and men have made really terrible decisions when they've been drinking, they've regretted. But it's not all fun and silliness and, oh, I did this embarrassing thing. It can sometimes be things that are really harmful. And so I think when you know, it almost sounds like he's willing to turn back the clock and go back to people drinking the way they used to and young people drinking the way they used to.

Speaker 2:

And I think that was always problematic. And I think this younger generation has seen older generations drink too much and have negative consequences. And that's probably why they're somewhat turned off by it. So I don't think turning back the clock is necessarily the answer. I think we can keep alcohol, but there need to be more conversations about how to drink and how to get the benefits of it without the harms.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I think that that makes sense for if we're living in animal house times where it should, like, a bunch of dumb antics, but those aren't those the times today, and they're not the same kids. And I think also that's directly related to kids that are in college. There are people that are gonna be in different environments that have higher risks. I mean, colleges sorta have that little bubble element, although not safe, but there is a little bit of a bubble from the real world in those environments.

Speaker 1:

But outside of that, it is a real world, and there are real consequences. And, look, I'm not, like, bashing where he's coming from because honestly, like, I I I was sort of like a head bob up and down and then no at the same time. Right. You know? To be honest, like, wait a minute.

Speaker 1:

I k. I I relate to that. I went through college. You know, I have a lot of credit that I attribute to fun, to meeting friends, to going out, and just initiation into adulthood, which was tied to alcohol and seeing that kids aren't doing that, that they're sitting on their phones, that they're not making a real connection, and they're lonely and that it's just that also has a lot of negative consequences to itself. That that seems like an easy solution, but, yeah, it just isn't, though, unfortunately.

Speaker 1:

So I guess the question is, like, how do we if that's the shortcut but they're not the most healthiest, how do we fix the issue without relying on what the olden days did?

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, and I think those are new conversations about how people relate to each other and how they connect and communicate. You know? Communication, I I feel like doesn't really get talked about enough. It didn't you know, even for our generations.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's especially true now because I feel like social media communication, texting especially, people try to have really serious connections over text and it just doesn't work. And I feel like people just don't understand. They've really lost that ability to connect in person. And I think that's probably the bigger conversations. How do you relate to another human being and see them as a human being instead of you know, an image on social media or just words on a screen?

Speaker 1:

So when in your practice, when you have somebody who comes in, they're just like, my life is boring now because not who I used to be. I imagine that that gets said in some form or another now and then. How do you try to get that person out of the shell and the pattern that they're so used to relying on, which probably was centered around alcohol to bring them out of that shell? How do you work with somebody when it comes to that?

Speaker 2:

Well, usually when people come to me, they're still drinking. So they haven't it's not that their life is boring now. It's they're afraid their life will be boring. And they're they're sometimes right. You know?

Speaker 2:

Because, you know, we've been talking a lot about the benefits of alcohol when it comes to socialization. And so that's not being talked about is fun. Right? It is important for adults to have fun. I think we think we're supposed to outgrow that.

Speaker 2:

We never do. We always need it to be mentally healthy. And a lot of adults don't know how to have fun without drugs or alcohol. And so sometimes when a client's talking about wanting to have a dry night, which is a night where they don't have any alcohol, I'll say, okay, what would you like to do that night? And they'll say, well, I'm gonna get around to you know, I'm gonna do my taxes.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna clean out that closet. I'm gonna do all this drudgery. Right? All these things they've they've been postponing because they don't wanna do them. And I think, well, that's gonna backfire because if the only time you have fun is when you drink, you're going to drink more.

Speaker 2:

Right? So that's one of the difficult things for adults is to figure out how can you have fun and not just enjoyment, not reading a book or, you know, taking a bath, but fun. How do you have fun as a sober adult? And that's a really complex question, and the answer is different for everyone.

Speaker 1:

You know, what's funny is that I had that same fear. Like, oh, I'm not gonna be first of all, letting go of that identity that I put myself around, like, the fun outgoing party guy where the drinks let's, like, you know, go from here to there. Well, now I I could give two shits about, you know, where that guy is or why I cared about that. But, what what I did find is that in alcohol at a chemical level, biological level made me less social 90% of the time when I wasn't drinking. It was only when I was drinking that, yeah, I would, like, lighten the load as far as social anxiety or just kinda cut cutting loose.

Speaker 1:

But once that hangover with the next day, I didn't wanna see people. I didn't wanna be around them. I didn't I didn't feel like my best. I'm a high performer, so I only wanna be around people when I'm at that level. And what I realized is that the thing that I thought was making me social was doing the opposite, to be honest, for for most of my awake time.

Speaker 2:

Right. No. I think that's true. And I think, you know, it's that that idea of drinking in a social setting because in the beginning, the first couple drinks, you might loosen up. You might feel more, you know, friendlier.

Speaker 2:

You might feel more outgoing. But if you have too many drinks, one, you're not yourself anymore. So you might put out an image of yourself that isn't really flattering, and you might not remember the interactions. And if you don't remember the times you had with people, then they don't matter.

Speaker 1:

Right? That there's some is is it really about the alcohol, or is it really about the event, the people, and what happened? Because those get linked, but they're they're definitely very separate.

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, and I think, you know, in a perfect world, you know, we'd go into these social settings, and we'd really connect with people, and people would be friendly. And we would be able to relate to them, and they would relate to us, and there would be fun things happening and good music and good food. And and but that's not the reality of a lot of social settings. A lot of social settings are kind of awkward.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes there are people there who you don't really wanna connect with and people you do, and it's kind of a maze you have to navigate. And so I think that's where alcohol comes in because, you know, frankly, parties aren't always that much fun. I think that's kind of like an unspoken reality. And I think their work in some ways. It's like you have to go.

Speaker 2:

You have to think about how you're gonna present yourself. You've gotta come out of your shell and you've gotta interact and you've gotta listen to other people who could be cool people, could be not so cool people. And I think the alcohol, it's not just how it affects the person in the moment, it's getting them to the thing. Because they think, well, I'm gonna go to this party, this gallery opening, whatever it is, it could be a drag, but at least I can have a drink. You know?

Speaker 2:

And so I think that extra motivation, that extra kick out the door could make a difference for some people.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Well said. Okay. So I wanna bring us a little bit moving along part of what we touched on earlier, which is around the Sober, Curious movement and how it started out as, like, this softer, more label free route for people versus the traditional recovery culture or even just the language has different ways of talking, more flexibility. Now now that it's further along, there are more people doing this, people talking about it.

Speaker 1:

Of course, you got social media. Do you think that it stayed that way, or have you seen it sort of, like, create its own kind of pressure for some people? Because I know you already touched on that, but let's get into this a little deeper.

Speaker 2:

I think people are certainly feeling the pressure. Now where that pressure is coming from is is a good question. Right? Is it coming from, you know, moderation organizations? Is it coming from people who market nonalcoholic drinks?

Speaker 2:

Is it coming from people you know, or is it not coming from anywhere? Is it someone else's own kind of human tendency to want to be normal and to want to do things right and fit in? So, you know, this dry January, is anyone pressuring anyone else to do dry January? Or is it just so many people are doing it that then the individual feels a pressure to do it? But is it really coming from within the movement, or is it just because it's become popular, is there more of a perceived pressure?

Speaker 1:

I think that's a good point because it gets to be a lot. And, of course, my algorithm is built to serve me anything around alcohol just based on everything that I do. And so I start to see it so often. And sometimes I almost draw the comparison of, like, you know, when everybody was posting around CrossFit and then everybody was posting around cold plunge, and it's just like, alright. I get it.

Speaker 1:

And then it's just like, I don't like CrossFit people. People start saying. You know? And then people start saying, like, oh, come on with your cold punch. And I almost wonder, if it's going that way.

Speaker 1:

Even though it started as this more open, curious, less shame, no identity based movement, I think that maybe it's starting to feel a little bit preachy to people who maybe haven't already, like, accepted it and joined with it, and now it's feeling like that pressure that you mentioned even though it's not like you should do it, although I have seen that, unfortunately. And I know it all comes from a motivating place, but, yeah, I think I think when people are told what to do, they don't wanna do it. Like, that's the whole reason for some who are curious. It's like, if you're curious, everyone's welcome. You know?

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Right. And I really hope that doesn't happen because unlike and I think you're exactly right what you're saying about CrossFit and cold plunge. But, you know, when it comes to somebody's relationship with alcohol, it's so important. It's such an important part of their life. And I really hope that someone you know, that they don't get spoiled, that the whole this openness to, hey, you you could maybe be having a problem with alcohol and wanna change your relationship with it and wanna try some some different ways of, you know, being in the world without alcohol, that it doesn't become something that becomes either so much of a trend that people just get sick of hearing about it and then they tune it out or something that does the opposite of what it was intended to do, which is start telling people how to live their lives because that will always backfire.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It it will. And, I mean, the fortunate thing is that that data continues to support that people are adopting it. I got a stat here among ages 18 to 25. Alcohol use was forty seven point five percent in 2024, and then the past month in the past month, binge drinking was twenty six point seven percent.

Speaker 1:

Heavy alcohol use in that age group was just 6%. So, like, people are definitely drinking less. But I do wonder if if the if things have changed over time, have you seen anything changed sort of in the approach or the attitudes, other than what we talked about in regard to, like, language or identity or maybe because there's so many groups and now there's, you know, friend groups and all these things like that. You know? Do you think that it's starting to get a little bit too high pressure, join us, you're not part of something?

Speaker 2:

I think there could be some of that. And I think also there's a there have been a lot more conversations, I would say, maybe in the last year or two about the health impacts of alcohol. And to the point of it almost being kind of a little bit fear mongering, you know, which isn't to say, I mean, obviously, alcohol is not healthy and it's not good for anyone. But I think some of the language around that has been really like, basically, like this idea, you cannot be a healthy person if you drink any alcohol at all. And so I think there's a lot more of that kind of coming through.

Speaker 2:

And I think that, again, kinda backfires because people get overwhelmed and they feel guilty and they feel scared, and they just don't want to engage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I like that you brought that up because it brings up a point that I wrestle with a lot, and that is you hear these podcasts. You hear people like Huberman that are saying, no alcohol is best. One to one, maybe two a week might be okay. To be honest, like, that is almost in.

Speaker 1:

It might as well be zero. And if it's if you wanna be healthy, it's it's still sort of an all or nothing category at that point. And to be honest, that's just anybody that drinks alcohol. Most people just don't drink that way. That's just not like, they either have to conform to that or they just say, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I know it's bad for me, but I'm gonna ignore it, and that's it.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

So I find that such an alienating statement at times. Exactly. From from the experts. It's like, well, okay. So what then?

Speaker 1:

So just ignore, or should I worry? Or, like, do I need to quit? Is it, like, for me to be healthy? Is there no other option? Is there nothing I can do?

Speaker 1:

And I just feel like that conversate that statement is just, like, cut off with no con with no tail on to continue the conversation.

Speaker 2:

Right. And that was some of the I think the problem with the former CDC recommendations. Now, of course, those recently were changed, but their their recommendation was no more than one per day for women, no more than two for men. And they weren't great recommendations because they were very limiting, and they weren't very specific. So for instance, one for women.

Speaker 2:

Well, is that if you drink every night? What if you don't drink every night? What if you only drink once a week? Then can you have three? Is that still too many?

Speaker 2:

It was very vague. It didn't address things like age, which is a major factor in someone's ability to process alcohol. It didn't address Yeah. Efficacy, which is also a factor. So it didn't talk about like, well, can you have one drink on an empty stomach or one drink with food?

Speaker 2:

That's a big difference. So they weren't they were so rigid and vague that I think people just felt stressed out by it. And then it probably didn't really change their behaviors. And I think when it comes to this idea of like optimum health and like health maxing about like, you know, you have to get perfect sleep and you have to eat a perfect diet and you have to get your macros and you can't have any alcohol and you can't have any processed foods. Not everybody is trying to be optimally healthy.

Speaker 2:

Some people are just trying to get through their life. You It's like some people just need a break every once in a while. They just need to have some fun or unwind. And then when they hear these kinds of things of like, well, you can't have any alcohol at all and be healthy, I think it just causes more stress than necessarily helpful guidance unless you're trying to health max and then Right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, when I think of those things, I just go back to everything in moderation.

Speaker 1:

You know? Like, whether some health expert or Brian Johnson for the longevity wants to jump in and say I'm wrong. I don't know. I'm trying to live my life. I will say, like, I'm into fitness, and I put on a CGM, a glucose monitor to check my metabolic health.

Speaker 1:

Once that was done, like, I canceled it. Like, I don't need to track that and obsess about that. Same with and some people listening might completely disagree with this, and that's fine. Like, do what works for you, but I'm not gonna wear a monitor on me twenty four seven to tell me how my sleep was, to tell me what my heart rate was whenever I get this and that because I I know for me, my mental health wouldn't be better if I'm gonna for how I am to constantly be obsessing over those things. Check it every now and then, move on with my life.

Speaker 1:

And I think for some people, when it comes to what we're talking to at hand, you know, sort of in the same carat category.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm. Exactly. And the clients that I have had and I think the people who who tend to wear the twenty four hour a day monitors are people who already have a fair amount of anxiety around their health, and it seems to make the anxiety worse. I've never met anybody who who felt good about what they were saying. It seemed to be a distraction and a a stressor as opposed to something that actually helped them to be more healthy.

Speaker 2:

So I I think, you know, it's one of those pendulum swings, right, where that had swung one way, and I think it's probably gonna swing back the other way. And

Speaker 1:

I think For me, it would drive my anxiety up if I was constant. I mean, I was doing it with the CGM, which I wore for two weeks. And that's why I was just like, look. As long as I know my baselines and I'm rechecking every now and then, if I obsess over this, it's just not it's not gonna do me any good.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. And I think that's, you know, that kinda human nature, this black and white thinking that humans tend to do, which is either I'm going to be extremely focused on my health and kind of obsessed with it, or I'm just not gonna think about it because it worries me and I'm not gonna go get my checkups and I'm not going you know, I'm just gonna live my life and kind of ignore this thing that makes me feel stressed. And then they end up with negative health consequences down the road. And I think it's the magic word, what you said, it's moderation.

Speaker 2:

There is a way to live a life in a difficult world where we balance out, you know, responsibility and fun, and we balance out health and enjoyment and, you know, socializing versus, you know, going home and getting a good night's sleep. You know, I think that that's something that's always been a challenge for humans is balance, but I think that's always where the answer is.

Speaker 1:

I agree. And and there are things that like you said, the the perfect night's sleep or do you get the socialization? And I also think, like, the conversation on not as best, one, maybe two. There are things that you can do. There are things there are supplements that you can take.

Speaker 1:

There's order of when you have your drink, food beforehand, slow the slow down the absorption, take take your last drink several hours before you go to sleep. All these things you can do that are not just saying, like, look. If you go past this, that's it. You know? Drink in moderation.

Speaker 1:

You can take some steps also. But I think also it's just it goes to what we're talking about is, like, is it getting a little too prescriptive rather than curious? You know?

Speaker 2:

Right. And that's why I really like that I get to do individual therapy because every client I've ever had is completely different. They might come to me for the same problem, but the reasons why they're having that problem and the solutions to that problem are always totally different. And that's a hard thing for people to understand that what works for somebody else might not work for them, and what's normal for other people might not be what's best for them. So I think it's really nice to get to work with individuals because, you know, you get to really hone in on what's best for them as opposed to and kinda try to tune out some of the outside noise.

Speaker 1:

Yep. Well, one thing that I'd like us to touch on is that a lot a fact that maybe many people don't realize in this whole conversation that we're talking about is around younger people or people, you know, midlife that are kinda rethinking the way that we we grew up and how society and marketing framed everything for us. But millions of adults that are 65 are still binge drinking. And in fact, drinking is always reported in the lower lower amounts for younger generations, but it's actually in the rise for older people specifically binge drinking, which then, of course, compounds health risks later on. You know, what do you think is driving that?

Speaker 1:

Why is that group, number one, behaving different, and why is it so invisible to the rest of us?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think, you know, to answer the second part first, I think it's invisible to us because our media and culture has always been somewhat youth obsessed. And I think, you know, if you look back at newsreels, you know, going back for decades, there's always some story about what this younger generation is doing and, them and their rock and roll music and them and their video games and whatever it is. It's like, so older generations kind of critiquing younger generations. That's always happened, right? So I think there will always be a kind of a cultural fixation on what the young new generation is doing.

Speaker 2:

But in terms of why older people are drinking as much, you sent me those statistics and I wasn't the least bit surprised because most of my moderation clients are over 60. So to me, I'm kind of and and again, it kind of it's interesting that it's so on the rise in such a, like a, statistical way because the reasons why they're drinking for my clients who are older are always different. You know, I think there could be something to be said for kind of going into issues of purpose and meaning. And so once you've gotten married and your kids are going and they're out of the house or someone has lost their spouse and there's this question mark of what do you do with the end of your life, Right? And I think, you know, as people are living longer and longer, maybe there isn't they never really planned for that.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes people retire and then they don't know what to do with themselves. So I think alcohol kinda comes in, you know, as a form of entertainment, you know, to keep someone busy, to blow off steam because some of my clients will say, I feel like I deserved it. I worked hard my whole life. I should get to relax and enjoy myself now. And of course they should, but they don't know how to do that without alcohol.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's part of it. I think untreated trauma can sometimes be a part of it if someone has been busy, go, go, go their whole life and now suddenly everything has stopped and it's quiet. Some things that from the past might be coming up and it might be difficult to face those things on their own. So I think it's kind of probably a variety of different things across the board in terms of that generation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, you bring up so many good points there, and I totally agree. And I couldn't help but think as you were talking, like there is a parallel between the same points of problem, which is youth and loneliness, but they're use but the suggestion that we discussed is to use alcohol to solve for that for the isolation. And it sounds like it's the same thing, isolation potentially for some, and also loneliness, but instead it's more of a coping mechanism to on how to deal with that, it seems like, which is interesting because we it seems like we need to solve for more healthier solutions when it comes to to isolation continued from youth doing electronics, older adults just because by default, many of us don't end up having as many friends as we get older or divorce or lose a spouse, and so then they're on their own. And I think that there's there's a real need, I think, overarching needs that alcohol and loneliness and isolation and at all ages are somewhat tied to each other.

Speaker 2:

I think you're right. And I think, you know, it kinda like two sides of the same coin. Right? For younger people, it's a lot about how do you have a life? How do you build a life?

Speaker 2:

How do you find people to connect with, to live your life with? With older people, you know, they probably met their people already. They're not looking to go out and meet new friends. You know, they're not they they had the life. So it's like, what is the the kind of end of life look like?

Speaker 2:

So it's it's all it's kinda the same question like you're asking, but it I think it's different answers because of the different places that people are in their life. And I think as people get older, I'm middle aged now and I don't really have that much interest in making new friends or socializing. I'd kind of rather be at home and be close to my people that I'm already connected to. But for younger people, if you haven't found those people yet, then there's a challenge of how do you find those people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And to give you an idea, so I'm looking at some of the stats right here. Basically, for 65 and older, the amount of within the last month, the amount of binge drinking episodes is double that of, the 20 I think it was 18 to 25, something like that, which you would think it would be the opposite.

Speaker 2:

I think there were there were certainly a time in our history when it was the opposite. Right? But and I kinda wonder when how they're measuring binge drinking because Yeah. You know, it's often thought of, I think, it's more than three drinks.

Speaker 1:

But I don't I think it's four for a woman, five for a man or either five. It's I think, yeah, four and five.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Oh, is it four and five? Oh, it's it's binge drinking. Right? So three would

Speaker 1:

be Which which you've told me years ago, I've been like, that's just warming up. But it's perfect.

Speaker 2:

And, also, a lot of people don't know that's within a two hour period. That that part sometimes gets left off. Yeah. So if you're having, you know, two glasses of wine with lunch and then another two at dinner, you're not binge shaking, but I don't know. So I kinda wonder, are they just reporting more accurately or maybe even over reporting?

Speaker 2:

Or are they really just getting wasted? That's the question when we ask, what does binge drinking even mean? And then if that's the case, then I think it's kind of a more serious concern. I would imagine it's kind of maybe a mixture of both. I certainly have clients who are older who can drink an entire bottle of wine in an evening, and that's five drinks.

Speaker 2:

So you know, how that came about with that generation is is really kind of interest.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I'd be curious to know in that generation that you work with, are they typically carrying it over from what they were doing maybe in their forties and their fifties, or it and then now they're thinking, I'm getting older. It's making more of an impact that I need to change, or has something changed in their behaviors because of their age? Or it's probably both.

Speaker 2:

Both. Right. So some people have always been heavy drinkers, and now they're more concerned because they're older. A lot of people, it it was triggered either by the death of a spouse or a divorce or COVID was you know, changed a lot of people's behaviors, and some people still have not gone back to their pre COVID drinking behaviors. So it's it's both.

Speaker 2:

For some people, it's a newer issue in their life, and some people, they've always struggled with it.

Speaker 1:

Okay. I wanna talk about one more thing before we go because and it is related to the social aspects of thing, and that is around drinking and specifically drinking at home because more people are drinking at home. There are less people are going to bars and restaurants and social settings. Why do you think that is? Do you think that home based drinking presents differently in your therapy versus, like, people that maybe go out too much and drink too much, or do you some sort of mix like that?

Speaker 2:

I think it depends on because at home doesn't necessarily mean alone. So I think that's kind of an important distinction is that are they drinking with friends at home? Are they drinking with a significant other home? Or are they drinking by themselves? And I will say, you know, I think some of that is because of COVID because people just got out of the habit of going to parties, going out to drink.

Speaker 2:

And they just got used to drinking at home and realized, well, hey, this is cheaper and easier, and I don't have to get dressed up. I can have my pajamas on, so I'm just going to do this instead. So so yeah. I don't and I don't know you know, with my clients, when they drink alone, I have found there's a little bit more of an awareness of their drinking. So I think that sometimes what what brings them into therapy is because they start to realize like, hey.

Speaker 2:

There are two empty bottles of wine on the counter. I was by myself last night. I should probably talk to someone about this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. You know what? I think those moments, it's like all of a sudden you realize and everybody has their own reasons. But to me, it's like it's that's not about celebration. That's not about happiness.

Speaker 1:

That's more about self medication or regulation or boredom or not really, like, the fun things that you originally would go out and buy alcohol for or think about alcohol in those terms. And, you know, so I mentioned this because the stats say, like, restaurants and bars, their percentages are way down. But then that can be a little bit deceiving because at the same time, we already know that people could just start drinking at home. And so I think, like, the conversation while Sober Curious is taking off, there's also things to still consider that people are drinking at home in isolation and and specifically that people you see in your practice, the older people that now need to consider some changes.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. And I think you know? And and we definitely need to take economics into account with that because it has become so much more expensive to go out than it was pre COVID. So I think that that's certainly a factor too that a lot of people, you know, either can't afford to go out as much as they used to or they just don't wanna spend that money.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, things aren't getting any better right now either. Right. No. It's certainly I mean, I went to a concert the other day with my daughter, and it was, like, 12 to $15 for a drink.

Speaker 1:

And that also includes, by the way, the same price for nonalcoholic beers.

Speaker 2:

Oh, is that right? That's unfortunate. I've seen that with mocktails in LA that sometimes you'll get a mocktail that's, you know, $15 for just juice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It gets crazy, but that's a that's a just a a complaint of mine for no reason. So, well, we'll finish up here because, you know, I think a lot of people are early adopters to things.

Speaker 1:

And so we talked about, you know, people that get really excited about this new form of how you can actually address the issues around alcohol or you can find other people that are more like minded. A lot of people like were beyond early adopter, were, like, beyond kinda in the middle there. I almost feel like it's starting to hit the back end of that curve. But people are still self aware enough to know that their drinking really isn't working for them at some point or another and not ready to adopt a label or enter any kind of, like, framework or program. What do you think is the messaging that reaches those people, you know, by and large?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think the most important thing for someone to hear if they're concerned about their relationship with alcohol is that they get to decide what is right for them. That they're it's not black and white. It's not and there might be people in their life who think, hey. It seems like you sometimes drink too much. Maybe you're an alcoholic.

Speaker 2:

Maybe you need to quit. You don't have to assign take on any kind of label for yourself. You're an individual person, you know, and you're complicated. And the reasons why you do things are complicated. And you can you know, you're responsible for living your life in the best possible way.

Speaker 2:

Figuring out what that is, that's the challenge. But it's up to everyone to kinda figure out what is right for them. And if you go to their support groups now for people who are sober curious or want to moderate, and if there's something in there that just doesn't resonate with you, you don't have to do it. You know, it's like the goal is with sober curious and moderation. It has always been, you know, figure out what's best for you and pursue that and try not to, you know, feel the pressure to conform.

Speaker 2:

So if you wanna do dry January, that's fantastic. If you wanna take June off from drinking, if you don't ever wanna go a whole month without alcohol, that's okay. You know, it's really just about, you know, just know that there's an answer that's right for you, and you deserve to find out what that is.

Speaker 1:

God, it's so good. And I totally a 100 agree wholeheartedly in everything you just said there. I mean, that's what drew me in to do the work that I do in that people have agency. They have the ability to choose, and I know I don't like being told what to do. I wanna make decisions to work for my life and choose what that goal looks like and find support that get me each step of the way to there.

Speaker 1:

And, also, I love that that there is no final destination. You can make whatever that look like and seems doable now, and then maybe you'll be a different person at that point. You can take on something bigger. I know that's what happened to me.

Speaker 2:

Right. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Merrilee. This has been a really fun conversation. Of course, we always love having you come on. If anybody's listening and wants to reach out, what's the best way they can do that?

Speaker 2:

I do have some availability in my practice. So if anyone is in California or Florida, they can reach out to me via my website, which is merrileeburke.com.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. Well, thanks so much again.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me.