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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan,
joined as always by my
friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.
Will Schroeder, will they
say that pets grow to
resemble their owners?
And I think it's, it's also
true that that startups
often resemble their
founders, or founders often
resemble their startups.
And, and I'm speaking about
something very specific
here, which is that startups
are just a giant collection
of problems, right?
Mm-hmm.
Problems that we have
to, or want to, or think
we should go solve.
But I think something you
and I can talk about today
is that, uh, founders are
full of problems too, right?
We've all got tons and
tons and tons of issues,
challenges, you name it.
So why don't we dig into.
The reality of those things,
how important they actually
are and, and whether they're
problems or solutions in the
making and, and sort of where,
where do we stand
on all this stuff.
I think most founders, uh,
by definition have a ton of
problems, and I don't just
mean with their startups,
I mean their own problems.
I think my concern having
a laundry list of them is
that we've created a society
where we're so intent on
saying, you have a problem.
Here's the pill that fixes it.
Right.
I, I say this, you know,
having come from the
pharmaceutical industry, right.
You know, so for a decade of
my life, I ran in at agency and
our largest clients we're all
pharmaceutical, uh, companies.
The script was first convince
the patient that they're broken.
Uh huh.
Then of course come
back with a solution.
In, in the nineties, you
know, we were launching a
product called Prozac, and
it was funny yesterday, I was
on the phone with one of our
clients yesterday and I was
referencing the fact that,
you know, this was, you know,
kind of problem solution.
And we are at the dawn of
consumer marketing back then
around Prozac, and they were.
What's Prozac?
And I was like, seriously,
you're the first person to ever
ask me that.
Right.
They spent hundreds of millions
of dollars so that no one
would ever ask that question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I was like, it's the largest,
like at the time there's the
largest consumer prescriptive
product in, in history.
Yeah.
And the fact that, that you
don't know tells me two things.
One, that's not a problem
you have, thankfully.
And two, you clearly weren't
around in the nineties, right?
Yeah.
You were, you were
not alive then.
But, but let me build on that.
The idea for the pharmaceutical
companies, and I know everybody
wants to paint them as these
like big, awful people, but
like their script was simple.
Convince people that
this is a problem.
And by the way, it usually
was like for most of their
products, those are actual
problems that they're solving
at, at a prescriptive level.
But then sell them the
prescription, you know,
sell, sell them the drug.
And where we see that
now is on social media.
Social media has an endless
stream of people telling you
that you have a problem and
they are the prescription
just to solve Yep.
Problems you otherwise
never would've surfaced.
I think, I think that's what's
so interesting about it, is
that because of these little
echo chambers that we get stuck
in and because of the, their
ability to reach us over and
over and over again, they take
something that, okay, sure,
it's, it's a problem at some
level, but it probably wasn't
in your, in, in the near the
top of your hierarchy of needs.
Yet, if you hear about it
enough, all of a sudden it
does feel like a problem.
So not only are they telling you
have the problem, they're sort
of creating the problem, right?
Yes.
Because what they're
creating is the intensity
around the problem, right?
Right.
They're creating the desire,
the need, or the feeling
that I should fix this, and
then they sell the solution.
Right?
That's batshit to me, right?
He's like, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna make the
problem and then I'm gonna
sell you the solution, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I used to tease my dad when
he was still a practicing
podiatrist, like, drum up
business, like, dad, just
buy me a couple a box of
thumbtacks and I'm just gonna
go scatter 'em all over the
streets, near your office.
This we'll drum up business
like, like, like crazy, right?
Like create the problem
and then solve a solution
or sell the solution.
Let me give you my list of
problems because this list
is long, but like kind of off
the top of my head, I am as
a founder, wildly obsessive.
Like about anything that
I'm doing, even when I
hate what I'm doing, I am
wildly obsessive about it.
And you were in town from
Spain last week and you
know, you, you, you got to
watch my obsession being like
carpentry and everything else.
Uh, you know, in
the, in the flesh.
I didn't do anything
to dial it down.
You did not.
No.
The tank could dial it up.
Exactly.
More
sawdust.
That's what we need.
More sawdust.
More sawdust.
I used to look at my
obsessiveness as a negative.
Right?
And so I would look for all
these self-help kind of things.
Yep.
I get too stuck on
these things, right.
To fix it.
I find that I am
hell bent on control.
Now, again, I don't wanna get
like too deep with this, but
that was like a facet of my
childhood and not being able
to have control, et cetera.
Yeah.
So I'm hell bent on it and
I'm like, Hey, you know where
I should go if I, if I have a
control issue into startups.
The one place where there is
no control ever and it only
gets exponentially worse.
So like something that
would poke that therapy.
Well, to be
fair.
You do have control.
You get to decide what to
do, when to do, how to do it.
Mm-hmm.
We don't have any control
over the outcomes.
Right.
So it does put you
in a dangerous spot.
But I can see the allure, I
can see the, the draw because
it's finally like, nobody's
gonna tell me what to do.
I can run this thing
into the ground however
I want.
I have another problem.
Again, this is a long
list, but I'm just going
through random ones.
Yeah.
Because I, I wanna set the stage
for this that I ignore success.
No matter where I'm successful,
no, no matter where it is,
I just, as soon as someone
says, Hey, great job.
I'm like, cool, that means I
should stop thinking about it.
What next?
Right.
And go find a problem.
Right?
But my failure is on an
infinite loop, right?
It, it's, I, I don't
know what it is.
Analysis paralysis, baby.
Just, just running
those things over.
What could I have
done differently?
What could I have differently?
What could I have
done differently?
Endless loops.
I mean, this is the soundtrack
to most of my nights.
W where do you see the
same like, uh, with you?
Oh, I mean, so check,
check and check.
Control was the big one for me.
That was something
that I, I did work on.
So, so here's
what's interesting.
As we go through these lists of
problems, I, I find that there
are, are some of these things
are actual problems, right?
But I think it depends
on where, right?
So needing a high degree of
control in my startup not
necessarily a bad thing, right?
Right.
I mean, yes, you can take it
too far, just like anything.
But having to a need for a high
degree of control in personal
relationships through my life.
Not necessarily a good thing.
Right?
So what I started trying
to say was, instead of
trying to fix these things,
yeah, I need to figure out
like where they belong.
Because what turned out
was like, especially in the
context of the startup, a lot
of the things I was trying to
fix because they were bugs.
It turned out to just be
features with really shitty pr.
Right?
It was like, I just needed
to kind of rethink like
when and where these things,
these things should survive.
I think for me, outta the
ones that you've listed,
the, the, the ones that,
and, and I think there's one
you haven't hit on yet that
you'll get to because we, we
both have a challenge around
this, which is attention span.
Um, and, and just being
able to stay focused.
So it's interesting while
we can be completely
obsessive about things.
We can obsess about four
or 500 different aspects of
that thing at any given time.
And I think that, again,
sometimes that's great,
sometimes it's not.
But I think the one that has
bothered me most and that I
thought I needed to fix the
most was over analysis, right?
You know this about me.
I will think and think, and
think and think, and sometimes
it can cause me to delay action.
However, when I go back
in time and I look at
some of those things.
Most of 'em have worked out
pretty well and, and most
of them were a result of
having analyzed things to
a point where had I just
jumped in with the first or
the second, or even the third
thought, it probably wouldn't
have turned out as well.
Now there's a balance there.
'cause if I never get off
the lab bench, if I just
keep thinking and never take
action, nothing happens.
Um, but I think that was
one of those where I fought
hard to try to like, just
stop overthinking it.
Stop overthinking it.
And then I realized at some
point I was like, well.
I actually don't know where
the overthinking line is.
So carry on, son.
Keep thinking.
Who convinced you
it was a problem?
See, see, this is
where I'm interested.
Like I'm interested that, that
there are these, you know, uh,
we're called false prophets.
These people that are
like, Ryan, here's
what's broken with you.
You've gotta fix this.
And, and this again, I think
for a lot of founders is
like, oh no, I have this
thing that I have to fix.
And they end up fixing
something that's actually
their superpower.
Did you see that?
Yes, a hundred percent.
And I think it was, it was,
again, people mostly trying
to be helpful, I think.
But it was cheap
dime store advice.
It was like, maybe
you're overthinking this.
And of course maybe I was,
but there wasn't ever any
follow on when I was like,
okay, so help me understand,
like where, how would you
approach this differently?
Well, you know, you really
have all the context for that.
I can't really, you know,
like, okay, cool, so you
just said a thing, you know,
now guess what you've done.
Instead of making me think about
it less, now I'm overthinking
whether I'm overthinking.
But that came from
a lot of places.
So it came from.
People around me, people
who are maybe involved in
the same decisions, right?
So let's say I'm sitting
in a meeting with a startup
team and we're like trying to
figure out what to do, and I'm
going through iteration, after
iteration, after iteration.
And sometimes that question
would come up, maybe we're
overthinking this, maybe we are.
I don't know.
That's my job.
My job is to keep
thinking other places.
Where would be when I would
come to somebody with like a
personal pain and say like, you
know, I'm really stuck on this
thing and I just can't, and I
just blah and I don't feel good.
And they're saying, maybe
you're overthinking it.
And again, maybe.
But I think that there were
always other root causes that
led to the overthinking that
maybe were actually the problem
my entire life.
I've been told by the outside
world that everything that
makes me me is a problem.
Think about that for a second.
Yeah, right.
Uhhuh, like, I've never, ever,
ever been told in my life that
what makes me, me, me is good.
Okay.
Now let me build on that.
When people look at.
Our outcomes, right?
Yeah.
As founders, if they've, if,
if the outcomes are great, we
are applauded for that, but no
one ever says Yeah, but along
the way you are all fucked up.
Right, like which incidentally
led to that outcome.
So let's try to fix that.
And I'm like, wait, hold on
a sec. If you tried to fix
all of the things that were
broken in me, I would've
never gotten that outcome.
Now I wanna be clear
when I say this, right?
There are things that
are broken within you.
Actually can be a,
a, a force of good.
And then there's things that
are broken within you that
actually probably need to
be, need some actual therapy.
Right?
You should fix, in other
words, if you have a raging
temper and you want to belittle
or hurt people, right, you
should fix that, right?
Yes.
That's, that's worse.
Fixing.
Correct.
Right.
There are like legitimately
bad behaviors that actually
don't have cool outcomes
that you should probably fix.
Right.
And, and I'll give
you an example.
If you have a raging temper
and you become a professional
boxer and somebody could say,
well, look, you took that raging
temper and, and put it to a.
Place of good.
Sure.
When you're in the ring with
the other 99.9% of your day,
you have a raging temper
and that's a big freaking
problem you should address.
Right.
So probably even more
so of a problem
because you're a
trained puncher.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
So I wanna make sure when
we're saying this, we're not
saying that every negative
trait is actually a positive
and you shouldn't address it.
There are plenty
of negative traits.
Yeah.
That you absolutely
should address.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What we're really talking
about is there are a lot of
traits that aren't necessarily
negative, but we're being
told they're negative.
Yes.
I, I'll give you an example
'cause because you, you
said we'd touch on this.
I have massive A DH, adhd.
Yep.
However, I grew up in
the eighties when A
DHD wasn't a thing yet.
You were just someone that
couldn't pay attention.
That was it.
Right, right.
So my entire focus, my
entire childhood and academic
career was punctuated by
being reprimanded for my
A DHD again, for not being
able to pay attention.
You know, will sits in class and
he is never paying attention,
will gets assigned tests
and, and he ever does it.
Will's gets assigned a book.
He never reads it.
And you know, you and I were
talking about this, like, I
actually cannot read a book.
It's not that I
don't want to, right?
The irony is I can write
one, but I cannot read one.
When I read a single paragraph,
it doesn't matter what it is.
By the end of the
first paragraph, my
mind is already gone.
My mind is already in 10
other places in most cases.
By the time I get through
the bottom of a page, I
cannot remember that I was
reading a book or what was
on the top of that page.
Think about that for a second.
Yeah.
As a student, as an academic,
that is exactly what you scored
on, on your ability to, you
know, synthesize and, and
regurgitate that information.
And I actually kind
of can't do it.
I'm very bad at it.
Yeah.
However, no one
ever stopped to say.
Where is your head at?
What, what are you
actually thinking about?
Did you stop paying
attention because you
already know all of this and
you're egregiously bored,
or you're taking what you
just read and processing
10 other threads,
synthesizing it
into something else?
Right.
That was always my challenge.
It was like, because to
me, and this is where like
somebody had to teach me
what education was actually
supposed to be doing, which
didn't align well with what
I wanted, I was like, I think
you're gonna teach me things.
I'm gonna then figure out how
to use in new and exciting
ways that exactly it.
So the minute I learned
something new, and again, that
might've been in the first
paragraph, I'm like, what
can my brain turn this into?
That'll be useful.
How is this a tool?
How is this fun?
How is this exciting?
And then I missed the
next three paragraphs,
right?
Or, or did I?
Well, right, so, so no
one stopped at the time to
say, where is Will's head?
Right?
Oh, he is not paying
attention in class.
So he's bat maybe like,
why don't we ask him what
is going on in his head?
When I got out of academia
and I was able to just operate
on my own, everything changed
because for the first time
in my life, I was being
rewarded for my head going
in 10 different directions.
Yes.
'cause it turns out those
were ideas, those were
actions, those were things
that needed to get done.
Right.
That most people were still
stuck reading the material.
Right.
I was 10 steps beyond that.
Thinking about like how many
different ways we can apply it.
Uhhuh.
So for the longest time,
again, I'm just using
this as a reference point.
I kept trying to fix myself.
I kept trying to fix
my attention span.
I kept trying to to fix
my thought process, and it
turned out that the very
thing I was trying to fix
was my greatest asset, right?
Which is bananas, right?
It's right.
It's like, and I think of
how many people are out there
that are selling the dream,
selling the pill, right?
Pretty much every social media
influencer they're trying
to sell while why you gotta
be in the cold plunge pool.
Otherwise, you can't get started
in the morning maybe, right?
I'm not saying the cold
plunge pool is bad, right?
No, I, I, I understand the
health benefits, right?
I love a cold plunge,
however, I know that.
I use, 99.9% of my mornings
have started without them,
and most of the world
does exactly the same and
seems to get on just fine.
Every successful thing I've
ever done specifically didn't
start with a cold plunge.
Right, exactly.
And again, I'm, I'm picking
on the cold plunge, not
'cause it's a bad thing just
because it's one of those
things where it's like,
I've gotta incorporate this.
Yeah.
I, I've gotta use
Tim Ferriss's tips.
I, I need the one hack,
I need the biohack.
And I'm like, you can,
it's not necessarily bad.
Right.
But there's this
massive stream of false
profits right now, okay.
That are telling you all
of these things that you
need to fix yourself.
And I, I'm just raising my hand
and I'm going, are you sure?
Are you sure about that?
Well, they are, they're sure
because they're sure that's,
but they are, and they have
to be, I mean, that self-help
economy needs you to be broken.
Okay.
So I, I just have
to point this out.
I know most of these people,
like most of the people that
you're probably following
on a podcast or you know,
you're buying their products.
I know most of these people,
and I, and I've known
them for a very long time,
not gonna name any names.
'cause that would be
the worst thing ever.
Right.
The irony is most of them.
Are the most fucked up
people you'll ever meet.
Right, right.
Like selling, like the
self-help and stuff like that.
I know how their personal lives
have gone and they are not good.
It's not
something you'd wanna replicate.
It is.
Well, it's that old
adage and I, I don't know
how true it is 'cause I've
only interfaced with a few
psychologists or psychiatrists,
but they say, you know,
that the people that go
into that field are the
ones who need it the most.
I respect anybody that
just wants to help.
And I, and I don't necessarily
know that there's like
bad intent, but I just
think the irony cannot
be overlooked, right?
That the people that seem to
be at the highest orders of
magnitude of how they're, you
know, they're trying to convince
you that you're broken, tend
to be the most broken people.
Yeah.
Which, which blows my mind.
And I think over
time, especially with,
um, social media.
And how I've seen everybody
become, you know, the, the
prophet or the doctor or, you
know, the, the, the messenger.
I've been like, damn, dude, I
knew you from before and nobody
should be listening to you.
Yeah.
No credibility.
How did you hear?
Well, we got an email to
that effect last week.
It was like somebody said
something about something
they saw on the site, and
they're like, but I actually
know that personally, and,
and it's, yeah, it's not good.
And we're like,
well, okay, that's,
let's flip this.
Instead of saying, okay, yes,
there's a lot of people out
there that are trying to tell me
that I, that, that I'm broken.
Let's flip it and talk about
why some of the things, Ryan,
that, that you and I do, that
everybody's been trying to fix,
and again, as it relates to
other founders like us, should
not be tampered down, right?
Yeah.
They should be harnessed.
They should be
exacerbated, right?
For example, my obsessiveness,
my freakish obsessiveness right?
Can absolutely be pointed
in the the wrong direction.
But it can also be pointed in a
couple cool directions, right?
Yeah.
So if we rewind back, and
again, you've been through
this journey with me, so,
so you can appreciate this.
You know, five years ago I
decided I wanna build a house.
Now how many houses I had
I built up until then?
Zero.
Zero.
Yeah.
Right.
I, I decided I wanted to
be, become an architect.
How many houses that architect?
Zero.
Right.
You name it like every single
thing that you could wanna do.
Right.
But I, I have a freakish,
obsessive personality.
Mm-hmm.
When I decide that I
wanna do something, I
just go full bulldog.
So I decided that I wanted
to learn 3D modeling
and design a house from,
from start to finish.
Right.
So that's exactly what I did.
Right.
I decided that I, I wanted
control over every aspect
of building this thing.
So I decided I was gonna
learn how to become a
general contractor and GC
the entire thing, right?
Yeah.
I decided I wanna
build cabinets.
I decided, you know, all
these things, right, and I
just decided my obsessive
personality that I was going
to get, go all in on that,
learn everything I possibly
could, and become competent in
all of these different trades
and skills and, and whatever.
That is a weird trait to have.
But when pointed in
the right direction.
Yeah, it works pretty well.
You know something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know it.
But that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the
test and be done with it.
I came to that realization at
some point where it's like.
Before I started to fix things.
Right.
I would, I would really
try to see like, okay,
I get where these things
manifest negatively.
Yeah.
Right.
I can see where that
obsessive or, or overanalyzing
something that maybe
doesn't matter that much.
Right.
Like.
Going over a conversation
that I had where I gave, uh,
some perspective to a friend.
It was like, oh, maybe I
could have said this, or
maybe I should have said this.
Or, oh, what if I made
him feel this way?
Right.
Just obsessing endlessly.
Yeah.
And re-analyzing and
going over stuff.
Maybe that isn't a good, a
good use of that, but when I
do the same thing, when I'm
pouring over our, you know,
return on ad spend results
and I'm trying to figure.
Right.
So there are definitely places,
so what I've started to do is,
is try to decide like, okay.
Given a, a particular trait
that maybe could need a fix.
Right.
Social media is telling
me it needs to be fixed.
This is a problem.
The thing that you
do is a problem.
Right.
I always want to make sure
that I understand where else.
'cause they, they'll
give you the use case
where it's bad Of course.
Right.
They'll come up with
whatever the, the, the
place where this manifests.
Right.
The temper.
You're not in the boxing ring.
This is bad.
Yeah.
Right.
Right in the boxing ring.
Great.
I'm always trying to
figure out, does the fix.
Erase an edge that I have.
Right?
Right, exactly.
'cause that's not therapy.
That's sanding the edge off
my sword and I want to make
sure that I'm not doing that.
And so that's, I'm always
looking at it from that lens
to say like, okay, cool.
I can fix this thing.
That's obviously a problem
here, but if I fix it here,
what am I breaking downstream?
What else am I not gonna be
able to do because of this?
And can I selectively
fix, right?
Can I pick and choose where this
happens as opposed to kind of
wholesale taking the advice.
Let me ask you a question
because I'm curious where,
where you stand on this Now.
I know neither of us are
massive social media users.
We're not always out there
like everybody else's, but
like, what advice would you
give to somebody who's feeling
pressured by all these self-help
trends, but isn't sure what
would work for them or, or if
they should even be doing this?
How, how are, how are
you thinking about that?
Here's what worked for me.
I, I started to say to
myself, my superpower
slash deficiencies.
Need a home.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so, so stick with that.
It turns out that my lack
of attention span is really
bad in very specific cases.
Sure.
In other words, I don't
do workshops, classrooms,
anything that requires
my undivided attention.
'cause I do not have
undivided attention.
Right.
Right.
So I absolutely keep myself
outta those situations.
However, how the hell was I
gonna keep myself outta the
situation for the first 22
years of my life in school?
Right.
It is literally what I was
being tasked with doing.
Right.
Which, but hang on,
hang on a second.
So just, just, and, and I want
to, I don't wanna dig into how
broken the education system is,
but I just want to highlight
how differently people learn.
Right.
So to your point, you
couldn't sit in a cloud,
you couldn't read a book,
you couldn't do anything.
And yet you taught yourself
how to build just a house,
but a pretty big, pretty
complicated, pretty de very
insanely detailed home.
You taught yourself all of that.
You learned all of those things.
So I think we have to be really
careful when we think about
some of this stuff that's like,
does, will, will just doesn't
have the ability to learn.
Bullshit will didn't
have the ability to learn
in that, in that way.
Right?
Right.
And so we have to be so careful
about what we think of as
like these things that may be
short-term challenges or just
even the modality that we're
facing that's keeping us from
doing something and saying, oh,
I'm not capable of learning.
But we know that's not true.
You're insanely
capable learning.
One of the, the, probably
the one of the fastest
learners over the broadest
number of topics that I've
ever met in my entire life.
Right.
And yet, if I was your
third grade teacher, I
would've just put a check
mark that said, you know.
Not, not this one.
Yeah, no, that's
exactly what happened.
You know, I graduated
with a 1.2 GPA.
Like the teachers basically
said there's no hope for you
and can you graduate with a 1.2
GPA in the state of Connecticut?
You can.
I couldn't confirm.
Amazing.
I can confirm, but.
You can graduate last,
by the way, you know, you
and I, you both have kids.
We have great kids and,
and we can see that.
We can see where like maybe
our kids are struggling with
one thing, but we start to see
them excel at something else.
And I've always been a big fan
this as a parent of saying,
I'm not going to bring a
better kid in the world by
emphasizing what they do wrong.
I'm gonna bring a better kid by
accelerating what they do Well.
Gold from a point of strength.
Correct?
Right in, in, in tripling
down on the things that
they are great at, not at
the expense of everything
else, but not the opposite.
Let me triple down on
the stuff you suck at, at
the expense of the things
that you might do well.
So with that said, that
definitely applies to founders.
You know, I see founders
come into this, into this
business, and everybody comes
into it terrified because
there's so many things you're
being tasked with that are
not in your wheelhouse.
And so we'll have a founder
come to us, Ryan, and say,
Hey, I'm not great at finance.
Okay, then don't do finance.
Right?
Like literally don't
literal find out any
other way to do that.
Yeah.
But instead of saying to
yourself, you know, I'm really
good at product development
or really good at sales, but
I suck at finance, so let
me be worried about finance.
It's the same thing, right?
Find out how to supplement
that so you can triple down
on what you are good at.
If we only focus on
fixing weaknesses.
We risk totally missing out
on developing our actual
strengths, our superpowers,
and, and let's, let's be honest,
the world does not reward
average across the board.
Right.
You're a well-rounded and
super average in every way.
Individual.
Right?
Exactly.
We'd love to have you aboard.
Yeah.
It doesn't, it rewards
exceptionality in
specific areas.
Absolutely.
Right.
That's why it's important to,
to think about those things and
to identify and double down on
what actually make you unique,
even if it's unconventional.
Es maybe, especially if it's
unconventional, right?
And so, you know, from
my standpoint, I look
at it and I'm saying,
okay, what am I great at?
Or said differently?
What do my superpowers
require in order for
them to be superpowers?
Okay, so my lack of
attention negates lots
and lots of things, right?
But if I embrace the fact
that, but when it's pointed
toward the right things.
It's a whole other animal.
It reminds me, 'cause I'm
such a huge comic book fan.
Uh, and for those that
are watching the, um, the
YouTube right now, if you
look behind me, those are
all comic books behind me.
Uh, I always look at, you know,
the, the, uh, the superpowers.
You know, the whole thing
with, with Marvel specifically
is whenever they talked
about characters, they, they
always had a, a character
who had a superpower, but it
had some sort of challenge
behind using that superpower.
What were you pointing at?
Captain America
and Spider-Man.
Oh yeah.
They're out, they're out of
focus, but they're right there.
That's awesome.
But that, that was
always the case.
Right?
That uh, and, and what they
did a great job of is saying
is like, this person has
this incredible capability.
It's the Hulk, right?
Yeah.
Has this incredible strength,
but the rage and anger
that they deal with right.
Is, is always kind
of countering that.
And when I think about our
capabilities, our superpowers,
so to speak, I think to
myself, okay, maybe Ryan's
over analyzing things, so
why don't we work on the
shit that, that we, that
needs over analysis, right.
Like you said, exactly like
digging into, you know, uh,
marketing analytics and things
that, where that is a strength.
And so if I were to zoom out, I
think at some point, and I think
this is important, I stopped
trying to fix my problems.
Yeah.
I stopped trying to fix them.
I try tried calling myself
broken and I started to say.
I've got all these problems, but
the fix is where I point them.
The the fix is, is, is,
is where I triple down.
And I think, again, I'm gonna go
back to founders for a second.
They're called on to do all
of these things, many of
which they're not qualified or
interested in doing, and they
put all of their focus on their
deficiencies, especially when
it comes, uh, time to becoming
managers and things like that.
They're like, here's
what I suck at.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, you probably do, dude.
But why don't we put you on
the stuff that you're great at?
If you're a great developer,
if you're, if you are great
at writing code, why the hell
are we making you a manager?
Yeah.
That's like one of the oldest
ones in the book, right?
Yeah.
I, I think interesting too,
because you do have to be a
little careful here, going back
to the build from the point
of strength, because there
are times where we just truly
haven't discovered a strength.
Maybe it even looked like a
weakness in the beginning,
so I want to be careful.
But when we get into the
context of a startup, one of
the things I think is also very
important to think through.
Go back to your example,
the founder who's like,
I suck at finance.
Okay, we can look
at that two ways.
You suck at finance, but
you're really good at product,
so just focus on product and
that's probably the right move.
Now you might, it might
turn out that you're an
absolute savant at finance.
You just haven't been given
enough of an exposure, right?
Think about how many musicians
get discovered late in life
that didn't know that, right?
All that kinda stuff.
However, building from a
point of strength is almost
always gonna be a, a more
reliable way to an outcome.
The other thing I like
to measure it against is,
okay, even if it turns
out you were a savant, you
are just like top finance.
Is that gonna help you do
what you need to do now?
Right.
With being amazing at
finance within an early stage
startup, is that what's going
to move the needle most?
So I think oftentimes we
get so caught up in like,
what I can or can't do.
We stop thinking about
them in the context and,
and how valuable they are
to the startup, right?
If you're an early stage
startup, I can tell you finance
isn't gonna be that important
'cause there's not gonna
be that much of it, right?
There's gonna be no
beans to count, right?
There's gonna be
very little to plan.
When I think about my anxiety.
Right,
just my baked in anxiety.
Everybody's got
some version of it.
But again, when I analyze
my own, um, we have, we have
pretty special versions of it.
I would argue.
Here's what I would say,
I've got two versions
of how that can go.
I can say my
anxiety is, is what?
Ruins me, right?
It's keeping me up at
three in the morning.
It's, you know, preventing
me from sleeping with health
issues like you name it, right?
My anxiety is doing all of
these awful things to me.
And all of that would be true.
Just wanna be clear.
All of that would be true.
I'm not, I'm not, uh,
discounting any of that or
taking off table, but there's
another version to say.
Hmm.
Your anxiety also has some
really interesting superpowers.
It's got you thinking about
stuff when nobody else is.
Yes.
When everybody else is,
is calm and relaxed.
Oh, this problem must be solved.
It's got you saying, yeah,
but what if it's not right?
Mm-hmm.
And, and then you turn
over a stone wherever.
It's like, oh shit, we
didn't even look at that.
Right.
Like it's this early
warning system.
That's exactly how
I look at it, man.
For me it's, it's
predictive analytics
with a heartbeat, right?
Yeah.
I'm, if I'm laying down at
night and I start having one
of those thoughts where it's
like my heart rate starts to
go up a little bit and I'm
like, okay, this is probably
something that's actually
important right now, does
it mean I need to stay awake
all night and worry about it?
No, and what I've found is
that if I just acknowledge
it and then I try, you know,
the whole thing, like, yeah,
write it down or whatever.
Yes, some of that stuff
does actually work.
Some of that does actually work
because part of the anxiety is.
What if I forget
about this, right.
Combine anxiety and a DH adhd.
That's a neat recipe.
You are like, I'm
worried about this thing.
Yeah.
And if I don't keep
worrying about it, I'll
forget to worry about it.
And then what the
fuck will happen?
My session?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Last night I was having one of
those anxious thoughts, right.
And I, and it was, I
was like, say exactly
like you played it out.
Right.
Whereas like, oh my
God, I, I need to solve
this problem right now.
Yeah.
And I remember having this
conversation with myself
right before I fell asleep.
The key being.
Right before I fell asleep
and I said to myself, I've had
this thought 10 million times.
Not this one, but one like it.
Some random, anxious
thought, right?
I've been to this rodeo over
and over and over again.
The one commonality is in
the history of history.
The problem never got solved
at this exact moment, right?
Ever, ever, ever.
So I can, you mean while
you're laying in bed with
your eyes closed, you
haven't solved problems?
I, I, I, I can choose to
obsess over it, lose, quite,
literally lose sleep over
it, or I can file it for,
again, the millionth time that
there's absolutely nothing
I can do about it right now.
Meaningfully uhhuh, if I get
sleep, I'll wake up in the
morning and be ready to tackle
it, and that's actually the
only time I can tackle it.
Like, again, just because
I'm worried about it
doesn't mean I'm prepared
to do something about it.
And as I started to build
those tools, I was like,
listen, hey, anxiety,
thanks for the heads up.
I'll go hand that over to
obsessive person in the
morning, my other demon.
Right.
Uh, but, but right now, good.
You did your job,
right?
Right.
You did your job.
Smoke alarm.
Smoke alarm.
Recognize, you know, I actually,
I loved the, I loved the rodeo
analogy and I immediately
took it to bull riding.
I was thinking, you know what,
that's, that's exactly it.
Anxiety is a bull worth
riding for eight seconds.
But once you've gone that far
with it, yeah, jump off right?
Get off the anxiety bull and
then, and then, you know,
put it to ease with the
obsessive guy in the morning.
It's exactly
it.
So, you know, and, and I think
about it too, where like, you
know, my mind's always racing
and, and I, I always explain
what that looks like is, yeah.
If you could watch the
television channel that is my
head, it would be as if somebody
just hit the channel button on
the remote and just left it down
and just every single thing.
Ding, ding, d ding, ding.
Just kept flipping
over and over.
Oh, by the way,
you've also got picture
and picture turned on.
So there's,
there's, there's no
way around that one.
And for the, my entire lifetime,
again, I've tried all these
things to try to like you.
Control it, if you will,
and concentrate it.
Meditation and everything
else, like just does not work.
And, and what I learned
over, over some period of
time is it's not what I
was supposed to be doing.
The, the question should
be, how do I take all those
thoughts like that, that
rapid fire and capture them?
Write 'em down.
Brainstorm.
Now I use the hell outta chat.
GT the chat GT Yes.
Is the unwitting accomplice to
all of these ideas and chat.
GT is, I I I'm loading up
context windows single handedly.
Yeah.
Simply just by brainstorming.
But it turns out somewhere
on their CDN is is a server
that just has your name on it.
Yeah, the, the
Schroeder Stargate.
So that said, I found
healthy outlets.
To point these things.
And it turned out when I
found these healthy outlets,
things got real interesting.
And a moment ago you
mentioned finance.
You said, Hey, maybe
you're not good at finance.
We'll go back to my 1.2 GPA
what dragged my GPA down the
most, which I guess if you've
got a GPA that low, that
it's literally everything.
Yeah.
But was math.
There was a couple
drags on that one.
It was math.
I I Interesting.
Never made it past freshman
High school algebra ever.
I took it seven times.
I took it.
In all four grades in
all three summer schools,
and I never passed it.
I then went to Math oh
five oh in college and
flunked out of that as well.
So, needless to say, not
super sweet at algebra,
which would surprise a lot
of folks to know that I've
been a CFO for 25 years.
Right?
You try to say, wait, what?
Those
CFOs don't use a ton
of algebra terms.
Well,
right?
But the leap is as soon
as you put dollar signs
in front of those numbers.
I was, you know, the Stephen
Hawking of finance, right?
I mean, not that I'm
like the greatest finance
person, but like I really
understand finance.
I really, really, really
understand finance and that has
opened so many doors for me.
Okay.
But that said, if you said,
will, we are gonna put you
in a finance class, your
job is to learn finance, and
here's the, here's the trick,
but I had no context for it.
Yeah.
I didn't have a reason that
I needed to learn finance.
Yep.
I would've flunked
seven years in a row.
Well, it was somebody else's
dollar signs in front of it.
Who cares about those?
Exactly.
But as soon as you
put my money in
front of it, no
context, no connection.
Yeah.
Forget about it.
Right.
And I, I use that by the way,
in fact, I think you and I
talked about this yesterday.
'cause we were talking about
open AI had had launched
their new agents, uh, product.
Yep.
You know, this, the,
the nodes and stuff.
And I said, I looked
at it, I, my eyes went
cross-eyed and I had, you
know, I, I had no interest.
You said, you
was like, I didn't make it
through the five minute video.
Yeah.
And I confirmed that later in
the day by asking, Hey, did
you get to the part where it
showed this, which is about
three minutes and 30 seconds,
you're like.
Nope, Nope.
However, the moment I find a use
case for it, the moment I, you
know, I find, um, okay, this is,
this is how I'm gonna use it.
Yep.
Totally different, right?
The YouTube rabbit hole
portal opens wide Oh yeah.
Will pops in feed
first and at that
point turn on the obsession
filter and go, yep.
I look at that a lot
in kids, by the way.
'cause again, I'm make making
that parallel when a kid
says, Hey, I don't get it.
It's often because they
don't care about it.
But if you, if you look at what
your kids are capable of doing
when it's stuff they care about,
I watch my son in Minecraft.
He's building the most
extraordinary things.
Yes.
Yeah.
Like, like literally like,
and again, I've got a
pretty high bar for what
that might be, Uhhuh.
And I'm like, damn
dude, that's like legit.
'cause he cares.
Yeah.
Right.
And you watch, you
mentioned musicians, right?
You know, I think I told you
this story that, you know, years
ago I got to see Lars Ulrich,
the drummer of Metallica,
talking to his parents at
the private induction of
their, when they were in the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
And he said to him, he said,
the only reason I'm here.
Because every day you
played music in the
house, because every day
you let me be a drummer.
You encouraged me
to be a drummer.
You know, he could have been, we
talked about this, an accountant
or something else like that,
but it turns out he's one of the
greatest drummers of all time.
I mean, he went to Julliard.
Yes.
I mean, he's pretty gifted
because someone encouraged him
to do what he wanted to do.
Someone forced him to do it.
Didn't, wouldn't say,
sit still.
Stop tapping your foot, Lars.
Where will that get you
in life?
Exactly.
Exactly.
But I guess what I'm saying is
when it's something that we're
genuinely interested in, we take
a a different passion around it.
Right?
And it changes things
dramatically, even if
it's the same information.
Right?
So we saw this a few weeks ago
with my middle daughter, aria.
She's 10, and it's not that
she doesn't like history or
social studies, but it's not
been her like favorite thing.
You ask her about what
she's learning about,
she'll give you some basics.
She went on a one hour, took,
took tour while we had some
friends in town a few weeks ago.
I didn't, I wasn't on it
unfortunately, but they, they
went on this little tour.
She came back and she unloaded.
I, I don't know how she
told me about Madrid history
for about three hours.
How she learned three hours
of, of history in an hour trip.
I have no idea.
But she came back
so excited about it.
All these little anecdotes, all
these details, exactly the kind
of thing that you could learn
from a book, but she didn't
because she was bored to tears.
Right now when she's
racing around town.
And it took to getting
to see these places
touch things, right.
See, smell like all of a sudden
completely different experience.
So even sometimes it's not the
information, it's the, it's the
modality, it's the context, and
it's the reason behind whether
I want to do this or not.
Correct, correct.
And so build on that for
founders who are like, oh,
you know, again, I'm not
good at all these things.
Yeah.
'cause you don't
care about them.
Yeah.
Once you care about them,
and there's two versions of
caring about them, there's
one, I, I really need to
get this done 'cause it's
important to my startup.
That's actually not
what I'm talking about.
Like, it being important
doesn't mean you care about it.
There's a million things in
my life that are important
that I actually just
don't give a shit about.
Right?
That, yes, I should
care about them.
I just don't.
But once you actually, you,
you find a fascination.
Around it.
Right.
At some point, Ryan, you
looked at like Google
Analytics or another analytics
package and just something
clicked in your head where
you're like, I need to know
everything I can possibly know.
Yeah.
I need to know
everything about this.
Yep.
And then it became course
after course video, after video
book, after whatever, anything
I could find to consume.
But because I had a goal in
mind, there was somewhere I
was trying to get, I didn't
just wake up one morning.
I was like, I wonder
what analytics are.
Absolutely.
And so in, in the same way,
like for years, every year
I said, I'm gonna, this
year, this is gonna be the
year I learned to code.
Right?
Like, and you and I haven't
coded in like 20 years, right?
And so like, this is the
year I'm gonna learn Python.
This is gonna, I'm gonna
learn whatever, right?
Yeah.
And every year I get
into a prompt and I'm
like, oh, that's right.
I have no reason for
learning any of this.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, I, yes, like I know it's
part of my job with regard
to what we do, but there's
nothing that I want to code so
badly that I wanna learn it.
Every time I manage getting
through, like installing
the terminal and the
packages that are necessary,
and then it stops there.
I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah,
we should accomplished,
I created the environment
that will allow me to code.
I'm not gonna
write a single line
right now.
I remember I don't give a shit.
So, so, yeah, exactly.
That's the thing.
I I actually don't have
any reason to do this.
Yeah.
Correct.
So I think where, where this
all maps back to, which I think
is really interesting, is it
is possible, dare I say it.
We could enjoy a certain
level of self-acceptance.
Now that is not the same
as being complacent.
It's taking inventory of,
of the assets that you have
and figuring out how to
use them to best effect.
That's way different.
And so I think for, for a
lot of us, again, we're so
convinced that we have to
fix our shit, that we never
take the time to say, maybe I
need to apply it differently.
Maybe.
And again, not all of it.
Yeah.
Some of it.
But yeah, I, I think, you
know, a way of looking at,
it's, it's, you know, self
acceptance isn't surrender.
It's redesigning the org
chart of your personality.
Of your makeup, right?
Right.
To be able to say, how do
we, how do I reorganize these
things that exist, these
resources that I have, right?
So instead of thinking of
these things as, as skills or
flaws, these are the resources
that I have, these are the
things that I'm made of.
How do I organize those?
How do I utilize those in
a way that stacks up to
being something absolutely
useful as opposed to just.
Fighting my wiring endlessly.
Right.
If you stop fighting your wiring
and just give it a workload
in SLA, you'll probably find
yourself far better off.
Right.
Right, right.
And I, I think from my
standpoint personally, the
moment I was willing to do that.
Again, the separation was
this, but separation was okay.
There are some, again,
my attention span.
There are some places where
that is an absolute problem, but
there are also some places where
it's an absolute superpower.
I'm going to recognize both.
That's part of the acceptance.
The acceptance is to say
that this, this is a thing.
My lack of attention is a thing.
I have to control where it's
good and where it's bad.
And I think that's
the big difference.
Instead of inventorying
everything that ever causes
a problem, holistically
calling that, you know,
I have to fix this entire
thing is wrong, is wrong.
Some people say, I
get too emotional.
There is a time and a place
where getting too emotional
is exactly the right answer.
Exactly, and it should
be applied accordingly.
But I think for, for founders,
one of the hardest things
for us to, to enjoy or,
or, or accept is ourselves.
Is for who we are and
what we're great at, and
again, in what we're not.
It's okay to be not good at
things, but I think once we
do that, once we figure out
the things that are strengths
and our weaknesses and, and
we inventory when we accept
both, then at that point
we can start to become the
best version of ourselves.
Because we know where we're
supposed to put ourselves.
We know where we're supposed
to stay away, and we can
go all in on the stuff that
actually makes a difference.
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors
helping them win in the
startups.com community.
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com
to see if it's for you.
Could be just the
thing you need.
I hope to see you inside.