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Barney's Tavern is a corner booth for people who care about this country.
Chris LaBossiere sits down with thoughtful, interesting Canadians — and take the time real ideas deserve. Generals. Entrepreneurs. Policymakers. Artists. Creatives. Builders. People shaping Canada in visible and invisible ways.
The goal isn't debate. It isn't performance. It's curiosity.
Welcome to Barney's Tavern. This show, I'm super excited to have a guest on that I've admired, watched, learned from, and been inspired by for almost a decade and a half, two decades in Edmonton. And today, we're going to talk about some stuff that I think everyone has a real remarkable interest in, and that's that's the future and the AI and innovation and disruption. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce author, speaker, and innovation specialist, Shawn Kanungu.
Shawn:Hey. Thank you so much. Well, listen. I I really appreciate you having me on. It's been a pleasure, you know, knowing you over the years and, you know, seeing the incredible businesses that you've created.
Shawn:And to be honest with you, I I have been waiting to come on Barney's Tavern my entire life, and here we are. This is it. This is a bucket list, and we we we may I made it. I made it. I'm gonna retire.
Chris:Well, I mean, it's gonna be you, me, and a handful of others, but, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And, and I'm sure it's gonna be a great conversation.
Shawn:What was the cat I'm just kidding. What was the catalyst in calling it Barney's Tavern? Like, what was the what's what's the catalyst?
Chris:The the the space is really a reflection of my memory of my grandfather. So my grandfather served in the second World War. He was most certainly probably the most impactful person in my life, my young life especially as mentor and a father figure. And I take it very serious, his memory and the memory of those who served. So so it was I needed a man cave.
Chris:I needed a theme. And so and as a place to have these kinds of conversations, it tends to be that place, literally. So lots of folks will, join me here, and we'll get into deep, interesting conversations usually around, brown colored alcohol of certain types.
Shawn:So Yes.
Chris:But, yeah. So that's Barney's Tavern.
Shawn:Love it. Love
Chris:it. Let's get into the conversation. And I thought I'm gonna just go boom and hit you with the same thing that I've been thinking about for the last few years. Like, not last few years, like, maybe last few months specifically, the last year and a half. You know, it felt like something to worry about.
Chris:Now in the last few months, weeks, You know, life is going to get tricky in terms of as an entrepreneur, as someone who has a business, and as a business that's largely driven in the knowledge economy. Software and learning, those are the you know, the business I'm in is a combination of those two things. And in a way, you could say, those are things that can be created free today in this market. And so I thought maybe I'm going hit you with this. You're extraordinary as a speaker, as a thought leader and as an entrepreneur.
Chris:I've loved watching it. But I don't know what you charge, and all I know is you are in the biggest rooms. You are one of the most popular speakers on this topic around the world, and I'm sure you charge a lot. And you walk in and you talk about disruption, which now, you know, GPT or pick your favorite tool can essentially access that same content for nothing. So, Shawn, what are you actually selling?
Shawn:Yeah. Well, to be honest with you, I actually think I'm underpriced with whatever whatever somebody somebody is paying for me. I think I'm underpriced. What I'm selling is at the end of the transformation. And I think one of the greatest, you know, reasons why I'm in actually in this business is because it's the transformation that people get, you know, after coming to a talk of mine, you know, whether it's three, six months, a year later, you know, them changing the trajectory of their career and most importantly their business.
Shawn:You know, I I have this beautiful advantage of of coming back to an organization the year or two years after and to see the impact that, you know, they've made. And, the reason why they bring me back is because they've added another zero or a couple of zeros to their their net revenue or they save cost. And to me, that's value that's impact at the end of the day. So, and and I think part of the reason why I am relevant is because I am it's it's more than just words on a paper. I I I fundamentally believe that strategy is energy.
Shawn:Strategy is not just is not just what you put on a paper. Ask Claude, ask Gemini, ask Chachi Beatty for a great strategy, it will give you an incredible strategy but it that can't result in execution at the end of the day. What you need is energy. What you need is that that light switch to go on and that's what I provide and I'm not there to hold their hand, but at least the light switch to say, hey, we need to move forward and so to me, that's why I think I'm underpriced.
Chris:Well, I I've what I've enjoyed is is, for whatever reason, it seemed I'd see you more in airplanes than almost anywhere else. You know? But I've been in the room to hear you speak. But I mean, when I first met you, I think, was a bit around the time you would have been at Deloitte because it was certainly a few years before COVID. And so you were kind of double double tasking for a while.
Chris:Right? Like, you were you were finding yourself as a speaker, and would you be considered I mean, certainly, I'm motivated when I talk when I listen, like a motivational speaker. And at the time, you were kinda dabbling in that as part of your identity as a consultant at Deloitte, or was it specifically something that you wanted to pursue as, you know, a career, I guess?
Shawn:Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. By the way, yes, I do see you in airports. And I know immediately when I'm not gonna get the the upgrade on Air Canada, when I see LABC in on that upgrade list. And I said, there is a million miler in front in front of me, and I'm not gonna get ahead of him.
Shawn:So
Chris:I hope that's true because that's the only that's the only joy I might get out of traveling so much.
Shawn:So, you know, when I was at Deloitte, I was leading a lot of our digital and innovation efforts, and then clients wanted to hear about the work that we were doing. And and they were like, hey, we got a we got a conference. We got a workshop. And I I would be more than happy to, you know, present on the work that we were doing. And because of that, I was able to build, you know, trust and and affinity with the people that I was working with because I was able to not only do the work but I'll speak about the work that we were doing.
Shawn:And and, you know, I just found that as an incredible vehicle for of building awareness of what we were doing, building awareness of what I was doing. And also, I I I never saw something more, sticky than being able to get on a stage and, you know, persuade folks with these ideas and then be able to shoot it on a camera and and just amplify that even more like I I still haven't found a a better way of convincing and persuading folks to take a particular path and so it was you know super helpful when I was at Deloitte and then when, you know, I remember looking at my schedule back in 2017 and 2018 and I said you know what I don't know if I'm gonna be able to you know work I was all I was gonna be a partner at at Deloitte soon and I said I I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do both, and so you know that's why I broke off and did my own thing and and, you know never looked back and and super grateful for my, my time at Deloitte and and being in the the weeds of, you know, enterprises and change and and innovation.
Shawn:But, yeah, it's been it's been incredible ride, since then.
Chris:I I I have a theory, and and and I love your opinion because it seems like you've you've done something similar than I have. I I when I have people approach me in their you know, in the context of, hey. You know, you know, I wanna be an entrepreneur or, you know, I don't know, you know, like, a young person specifically, what should I do? I would like to And I have always said, go work for the best, biggest firm in the industry you want to be in for And a period of because what you see inside an organization like that is equal parts you know, what you don't do or shouldn't do, you know, as you think about developing your own business and how you'd run it, but also everything that the best in the world learn to do. And those are things that are super important for your business to be successful.
Chris:So I often give that advice to future or want to be entrepreneurs. Do you feel that that impacted your, like, your perspective working inside? Because I can imagine, like, Deloitte is a a well known animal in terms of what it does.
Shawn:Well, it's not just Deloitte. It's it's it's going into all these different organizations, you know across every single industry and understanding how leadership runs understanding how systems run understanding processes I didn't I didn't know what I I I I didn't know what a procure to pay process was. I didn't know what, you know, I didn't I wouldn't know what like Workday, Oracle, SAP, ServiceNow and what they did and what a a go live was in terms of an ERP implementation. Like, what is actually the underbelly of an organization? How does a finance transformation work?
Shawn:Like, I wouldn't understand any of that unless you go to different industries and understand how big businesses work and so once you get, once you walk the halls of thousands of organizations and you know work on their strategy and help them those things like I I I pray to God Chris that I can that my kids can can work at a big firm and have that type of experience and get punched in the face every single day and and just understand you know how the world works and and that's what I was able to experience. I think working at a firm is the like, I would rather take somebody that worked at a firm for ten years than somebody that has been in a particular industry for just sixty years doing the same thing in and out because the level of learning that you get that's compounded during a very short period of time is incredible. Now the only better the only better, job than that in terms of count compounding learning is being an entrepreneur which which is something that you know, you've been incredible at over the decades. And, you know, you can tell me
Chris:But but I I I don't think I would have had any of the levels of successes that we've had without the perspective first of industry at pretty serious level where you understand it and all the contextualization and literacy you get about those kinds of topics you bring with you as an entrepreneur. I think that, I don't know, it certainly doesn't guarantee success, but I think it helps insulate you from it. So that's probably, I guess, why I shared that. And I specifically wonder, I'm looking forward to getting into the conversations about disruption, which you're a specialist in for sure. But let's talk about the big four.
Chris:Let's, or the, I don't they refer to them as the big four, but let's talk about the big consultancies and firms of their type around the world who drive massive amounts of shareholder value out of a lot of things that seem like would be completely on the horizon to be disrupted by artificial intelligence, agentic, AI, all those things.
Shawn:Yeah.
Chris:Just just without diving into that topic too deep, I'd love your perspective on how you think those big firms, if they're well prepared or not well prepared for what's coming.
Shawn:I think some of the I mean, it's probably one of my favorite topics to dive into in terms of the disruption when it comes to professional services, specifically when it comes to consulting. Think, you know, there are many parts of that business that are resilient, and I'll get to that. And there there are many parts of the business that are not. You know, the old model of consulting is that you've got you hire a really smart person with a really nice suit, and they walk in with a really nice briefcase, and they're put in the corner, and they and somebody said, hey. Who's working on the strategy?
Shawn:And you point to that guy with a really nice suit and a really nice briefcase, and that would be the value proposition that you'd have somebody there that was apparently smart that had all the industry experience. And really, now that's become completely democratized because the smartest entity in the room is Claude, Gemini, ChatGPT, Grock, and more agents to come. We all know that. We don't need the smartest person in the room because it's already in the room. It's already on your phone, and it can bubble up the best strategies.
Shawn:It can bubble up the best practices. So you don't need that person to do that. And so many of the businesses many of the verticals that many of the big consulting firms were owned, which is actually the space that I was in, which was a strategy, is being completely commoditized. But the role of a consultant was always to to hold someone's hand, to persuade, to convince, to take action, to be a coach, and that will always be resilient. And I think when you're doing a large transformation, when you're doing a large, for example, an ERP implementation, you that's something that you can't just plug into AI, you know, get an AI to do that requires people and knowledge and process to move someone to move an organization forward.
Shawn:And I would argue in a world where there's so much radical change, you might actually need someone to hold your hand and do that even though AI has all the answers. And I don't know if you've experienced this this, Chris, but, like, I I actually believe that there's two universes that exist right now. There there's one universe that, you know, has been completely AI pilled. They understand what's happening in this space. They're building their own AI agents and their workflows.
Shawn:And there's another group, which is actually the majority of the group, which is just like they've discovered Chet GPT yesterday, and they've made a nice recipe. And those are the two worlds that exist, and the people that need the most help are the people that just discovered the recipe. And so I'm I'm not sure what you're seeing
Chris:on the graph or not. Think I think you're well, first of all, that would be exactly my experience. So and I have been deep, like staying up till two, three, four in the morning deep. I haven't felt that way, that energy is entrepreneur since, I think, we started our business, our yardstick, the software business, like in the mid-2000s. Love that.
Chris:And it's because it's an extremely liberating tool when OpenClaw came out and the ability to kind of put hands on this thing. To me, I was I almost had fatigue from using ChatGPT in the way that most people would, which is just trying to dig out of it a better way to present something or to plan something. And and that wasn't I mean, that's not inconsequential, but but when it could build me a website and then app and send email or manage things on my behalf or programmatically, that you know, because I hadn't been playing with AI like our development teams have been where they've been using Cloud and, you know, in a number of different ways, leaning on the APIs and the automation, the stuff that makes it powerful. OpenClaw was like the first version of PowerPoint for an entrepreneur. Like, it was just like, holy cow.
Chris:Now I can put my idea together. And because I can clearly visualize my idea. I know exactly what I think needs to be done in terms of how this thing could, you know, be a business, grow, create value, and leverage. But now, all of a sudden, I could, like, actually show it and whether I could cite reference and I could cite, you know, research. It's a phenomenal tool.
Chris:And, so I think in those classifications, the more people who go and experiment, the better. But it's also gonna be democratizing for that entrepreneur with an idea or an entrepreneur who has a vision of how we're doing my business better too. So, like, it's going to create a a huge competitor class to virtually every type of knowledge economy business. And then kinda grasping onto the value creation for your customer. Like, how does the customer still wanna buy from you?
Chris:And it's nothing to do with building software or content necessarily. So I wanted
Shawn:to I wanted to wanted to throw back to you around that the the professional services piece because I'd love to get your thoughts on that and if if you think my assessment is accurate because I think that this is such a it's such a exciting and and scary time for for anybody in professional services.
Chris:Well, it well, the way you describe it, but in my experience and using, you know, consultative approaches, you were going through a reshaping of our business today to realign our entire business along a different spectrum, which is a persona based approach because we have a B2C business, we have a B2B business and kind of a B2Government business. Those are the three key personas in my business. And as I thought about how do I automate, how do I improve, how do I tap into my own data and kind of create a feedback loop and, like, you know, create more and more and more value for the users who use our application. And it just became obvious because an AI agent told me, you know, this is a persona based organization and you should use a And revenue operations so immediately, I'm retooling my whole organization literally as we speak to do that and thinking, gosh, change management of that is always the hardest part. And so whenever we get a consultant who would provide and hopefully insightful advice on what to do on a big project or a business, the hardest part is always, and where it fails almost in my experience, is in the implementation phase.
Chris:So and I thought so I was thinking about last night in terms of your your you know, the power you you you hold now is that you have to inspire millions of people who need to understand the the opportunity of AI versus the threat of it. And the opportunity of AI, the one thing that I would say if I if at all if there's a scale and, you know, is it good or bad? And I'm more leaning heavily that this is going to create so much economic and, you know, ingenuity value creation for the world that we can't even predict. And it's so but, you know, it it it can level a lot of people into this position where they're scared to death because many, many, many jobs will be replaced by, you know, automated functions and, so I'd love to switch gears a little bit to your book and the concept of this be bold the disruptors, and particularly the idea that you share this sense that disruptors are bold, they share a DNA strand, and that's kind of a consistent thing that you have or you don't have. And that's often that's a debate that often happens, I think, amongst, like, entrepreneurs.
Chris:Are you born with it? Are you are you can you develop it? And, you know, I think it's obviously a little bit of both, in my opinion. But but when I thought about that and I thought about disruptors, I thought about myself. So I'll I'll share a personal story just in the sense that I you know, so I had a very challenging childhood.
Chris:There's disruptions in my family as a child. So I had my mom was a single mom raising raising us. And, you know, we lived often on social assistance and sometimes a couple times in a foster home. I went to 16 schools in twelve years. The marker that I share because I think that people see that and they go, okay, you know, because most people can't imagine that, that most people went to two or three schools in their childhood.
Chris:And I think that's what created me in the sense that it created these skills in me to be very, very, very adaptive, be a risk taker, all those kinds of things. And I thought about your the idea, and most of what you present, the material about your ideas, is quite aspirational and is to help motivate people and for them to find greater success. But I think about those disruptors that need to become that way because of their circumstance and the people who have a harder time escaping that circumstance. And, you know, I'm just curious, like, is it something that we choose, or is it something that's in us? And I've always wondered about the entrepreneurial ability of those who've had a harder time earlier.
Chris:And does that have an impact, you know, possibly on that?
Shawn:You know, it's it's a it's you know, it's you you see that a lot, right, amongst, you know, incredible disruptors like yourself where, you know, there is some sort of strife. You look at some of the, you know, the greatest entrepreneurs of all time from, you know, Steve Jobs, you know, you know, being adopted and and and, you know, going through his struggles to Elon Musk to, you know, it's it's normally the case that's, you know, the what some of the greatest entrepreneurs have some sort of, you you know, commonalities that their childhood wasn't easy. I mean, there are some examples that are not, like, you know, you had got Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates for the for all intensive purposes purposes. They came from really great families and and really great backgrounds. So, I mean, it all obviously assumes the other way.
Shawn:But my belief is that, you can actually instill this idea of being a disruptor. You can instill it by, I think, having, two ingredients. Number one, it's just like willingness to embrace risk and willingness to embrace failure. And I think the best way of doing that is by, you know, this idea of exploration, experimentation, and just continually and build them a muscle around that. And number two is really if you wanna instill it within your organization, I think you need a deep commitment to people and to build that psychological safety within your organization.
Shawn:And that's how I think you can actually build a disruptor. You know, there's an interesting study that came out a couple of years ago around who are the most prolific and the most innovative individuals on the planet. This this the this research team, they went throughout history, and looked at, artists and creatives and and and scientific, innovators and what is what made them so prolific? What made them so innovative? And the thing that they discovered was the the reason why some people are so prolific and so innovative is they went through this period of exploration, of experimentation.
Shawn:It could have been years, decades in the making, and then at some point, they exploited. So they went through these these these massive of time of just trying new ways of doing things and then ultimately put it all together. You know, a great example is somebody like Vincent Van Gogh for years, for decades. He he he experimented with, you know, different ways of putting together his art, different color, experimentations, and only at the end of his career that he produces his greatest, in his work. So it's that is the commonality that you see across most folks is that they go through this period of exploration.
Shawn:And maybe in your set in your world, it's like you're going to 16 schools in in twelve years. Like, you're seeing so many things, and you're learning about so many people, and you're learning about different environments, and and that's certainly a a period of of of exploration. But that's what you see time and time again. Huge part of exploration, and then at some point, you put it all together and you exploit.
Chris:Yeah. I I mean, there's certainly a necessity sometimes of having to, you know, fend for yourself to be forced into situations you, you know, you you maybe that do actually imprint on you quite a bit. So, and, you know, and I've always just been fascinated by this kind of nature versus nurture thing, but in the world today
Shawn:I agree. And here's my problem. Here here's my problem because I know you got I know you you got kids, grandkids. I got three kids, and I want them to also essentially have an entrepreneurial mindset. I want them to build this level of grit, and resilience, and hunger at the end of the day.
Shawn:And I'm trying to learn from, you know, parents that are, you know a lot you know older than I am to say how do we continue to do this because my kids are probably living a pretty comfortable life to be honest with you. They haven't really had that much I mean, I gotta give them more pain and suffering, but this is something that I'm trying to struggle with where how do I give them enough love while also introducing them to enough pain so that they're like, how do I I know how to fend for myself. Do you know what I mean?
Chris:Yeah. That that's a whole parenting podcast that I don't think I'd be fully qualified to do. I I am very lucky. I've got two adult daughters and four grandchildren. And but, you know, I don't think I was necessarily perfect in trying to create that scenario.
Chris:You know, it does it does lend to the idea, though, that and I watched one of your videos. I was actually preparing for one of my board meetings. It's kind of first time we have a board per se for our company. And and I really wanted to take some inspiration around the ideas that we were exploring in our business. So, you know, an agentic and automation and expanding, really expanding, hopefully, our impact in terms of marketing and those kinds of things, but then how the product can shift easier and faster.
Chris:So, like, it's a really interesting time for us. And as you know, I was staying up till three in the morning and trying to figure out to you know, when when OpenCloud dropped, was, a Thursday. By Saturday, I had a machine imaged because I'm like, okay. What is this thing? And, you know, by Monday, I had a full on virtual chief of staff with their own website, and they're like, now now of which are But not I I you know, it really came down to a couple things, and I and and I really enjoyed the video that I watched in preparation of that because those two words came up that I felt were, like, essential.
Chris:It's almost entirely what's required. And that's the, you know, the the idea of agency and curiosity. And curiosity, I understand. And I think that's been if any it's one of our corporate values. And you go to our website, I mean, we we it's it's our first values.
Chris:I mean, we are curious. And because to me, that that's the pull that I got from being constantly, you know, curious as an entrepreneur and and and finding out that the answer you're looking for is really right on the other side. And was always getting more I was learning more and more. And so pulling on a curious thread was something I was quite passionate about. But the word agency, there's a little different.
Chris:And meaning, I understand it, and I understood it, and I certainly see it in myself. Like, if I I'm a very high agency person and probably Yep. Too too much so in a way in terms of kind of, you know, needing to be a leader of all, you know, the people in organization, but having relationships because, you know, agency overdone can be over it can be too much. But the word and then the the words together, and then I thought that's essential to survival today. Yeah.
Chris:It feels like it is, and I mean that not just in your career. But, like, I'd love your perspective on that and how you share that.
Shawn:Yeah. Yo. To to me, my belief is that high agency is the number one skill set of the twenty first century. A high what what is agencies? To me, agency is about taking action, executing, getting stuff done.
Shawn:A high agency person is someone that doesn't ask for permission. They just get stuff done. A high agency person is somebody that, is able to be a problem solver. A high agency person is someone that can orchestrate, you know, all these agents in front of them that they just they understand the the problem and they just go off and do it and to be honest with you I don't need any more smart people like I have five smart people in my pocket I have Grock and Gemini and Claude and ChatGBT and and Open Claw, and I got it. I got the smart people.
Shawn:Are you this person that can actually make it happen to that is the most important skill set on the planet today. Because to to me, that's what's going to differentiate, people that will essentially win and those that will just be, that will overanalyze at the end of day. You can overanalyze to death now that you have all the technology, all the resources, and all the knowledge at your fingertips. I need somebody that can take action. And so to me, I just want to instill, I wanna create more high agency people.
Shawn:I wanna hire more high high agency people. And you know it. I mean, you can just, you know, you can see it when you when when people walk in the door and you give them a task or they work for a week, you can tell who is high agency. Right? And I think the the opportunity for organizations that how do we instill high agency, and how do we get more people to become more high agency, that's more of a trick.
Chris:Well, it's probable it's probable that, theoretically, that if you are in a low agency position, meaning you're doing something that's maybe administrative, repetitive, or, you know, not unimportant, but still, certainly susceptible to, you know, changes with automation and AI. But it's likely because that's probably the type of work that you like. And there's we know lots of people like that, and they're super important diversity of your organization. But if those functions go away and you want them to learn how to be more high agency, then then how do you do that?
Shawn:Yeah. I well, by the way, I I would I would challenge you and say that, you know, no matter what job that you're in, you can have high agency. You can be the janitor and and have high agency that you are the one that loves your job. You solve problems. You're able to clean quickly.
Shawn:You're able to, you know, you know, answer complaints. You're able to just you show up on time and just be responsive. You could be the e you know the executive assistant and have high agency, and so no matter what job you have you can demonstrate the attributes of what high agency is is all about and I think if you want to instill high agency I think in this new era of of of work, my belief is that you have to empower people. You have to give people ultimate empowerment and that comes with number one, you have to embrace, you have to be willing for folks to go off and take shots. You have to incentivize people to take shots.
Shawn:That means when someone makes a mistake, you cannot slap them on the hand and say, hey, don't do that again unless, you know, hopefully they took a shot and they learned something around it and you want to incentivize for people take shots, number one number one. And number two, you have to give them that psychological safety to go off and and try things and and and and psychological safety to me is not just about saying, hey we we got your back but it's really like really understanding and knowing people and I just my belief is that in a more remote work world in a world where people are wanting to work from home on their laptops, I actually believe that you can't build culture, you can't build that that that that affinity for each other that you have each other's back. When you see people and you look people in the eyes and you know who their husbands and their their their wives and their kids and their grandkids are, that's when you're gonna go to war for each other. And innovation is hard enough. It's hard enough, and that's why you need to build that that that trust with with one another.
Shawn:And that's I think those are some of the ingredients of how to create high agency people. Like, I I to be honest with you, I just wanna go with people that won't go to war with me. And the people that are gonna go to war with me are the people that care for you and are willing to take risks. So to me, that's how you build it.
Chris:Well, I mean, in in many ways, I guess, we're kind of doing what you're saying and hadn't necessarily put a lot of frame on that. But because we we have roughly 60 people in our business, let's say. And and and you know, here we are, like, we're we're like, everybody, go play with these tools. Go start thinking about how to integrate them into, you know, your your world and go and but inevitably, there's always an there's an anxiety high or low, but it's in the back the backdrop of, like, I'm gonna work myself out of a job. And, you know, we've started to kind of, like, take the position, you know, these people, you know, I can say to a tee, luckily, of all the of all the employees, we they're all culture fits.
Chris:They all are they're on the mission for the same reasons we're on our mission in terms of our objectives, our strategy, and and, you know, our vision. And and they're they share our values for the most part, you know. So so you start to wonder, though, know, literally every job, including mine, is gonna change possibly five different ways and and and from every angle as these because every week, there's a new thing that changes what can or can't be done, in particularly AI. And so you almost have to start to say, okay, it's the culture we're going to work on forever. The products may change.
Chris:The strategy may change. The ship even the shape of this might change. Because otherwise, you know, and I there's probably, like, you know, as always, technical competencies that you need to have in certain organizations. But past that, it really does become around these personal attributes. You know, are you curious?
Chris:And and, you know, do you do you have agency? And I think you have to create your organizations the framework of your organization first before people can feel safe and comfortable to do that. Because otherwise, you're, you know, you're gonna have this reticence to AI. Something came up, and and and I wanna I'm gonna end on talking about, you know, what this means for young people in the future. But but, you know, I would I I would I'm curious if you're experiencing something I've heard recently, which is that there's this kind of a generational cutoff where AI is looked at as very, you know, environmentally, you know, irresponsible, kind of like I don't know.
Chris:It's it's a counterculture response to what I remember when the Internet because I see this as bigger than the Internet, but certainly as as the same and and equal. Living when the Internet came out, I was a young, you know, manager at, you know, 25, 26 years old, kinda when I started to, you know, have it in my home, which is when it came out as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. I don't see that with young people in AI today. I see this kind of skepticism and a downward view of it, which would if what I think is true, would put some of those folks in a really bad spot in a few years.
Shawn:Yeah. I mean, I I I certainly see it as well. I think AI is probably one of the most unpopular conversations to have right now amongst many groups. It is I mean, we're we're we're yeah. We're literally talking about, you know, something that is more unpopular than, like, Iran or, you know, you there's polls out there that say, you know, what do you hate the most?
Shawn:And and AI certainly tops tops it. I think part of the reason is because of, you know, and and by the way, every single technology is, I believe, 51% great and 4949% terrible. And there are some there are some you know risks there's some consequences there's implications to jobs there's there's so many pieces that of the AI they're not great and I think those are those are good to call out I think the reason why AI has such a negative, I guess, stigma right now is I don't think that it's threatening jobs. I think it's threatening people's identity. You know, we have been we've brought up we've been brought up in an organization where you develop a certain level of knowledge and experience, and and you you you get a you develop this healthy ego about the job that you're supposed to do, and now you have this technology that's coming around that's changing everything that we know about work.
Shawn:Think about a young person that is gonna be graduating soon, and they've learned their entire lives about a particular craft or a particular job that they've been hoping, and now that you have AI coming around that's impacting everything to do with that job. Yeah. It's threat it's not threatening jobs. It's threatening everyone's identity, and and that to me is what is part of the the the the the the fact that AI is so uncomfortable for folks. And, yes, there's the environmental factor, and yes, there's a piece around risk and deep fakes and all that, but I think it comes back to our identity and that what's that's what makes us human.
Shawn:And I think the more that we can, become comfortable with these tools, the more that we can see that this is an incredible amplifier to everything that we do, the more that we're gonna be able to embrace it. I always say this is that AI is not gonna take jobs. It's going to allow you to do any job. And it doesn't replace the fact that you become a specialist in your particular field, but it's like, if listen. I'm not a coder.
Shawn:I'm not a designer. I'm not accountant, but at least AI makes me dangerous enough that I could put together, you know, incredible, you know, slide wear even though I'm not a designer. I I'm not an incredible coder, but at least I can put up an application that creates value for me at the end of the day.
Chris:And so Do you is that what you mean by identity when you say, like, I if I I could I use the same example for for myself. I can do all this stuff I haven't been able to do before, but there were people there are people who are extremely skilled, experienced, and professional at that. And all of a sudden, they've kind of lost, I guess, the competitive, you know? And so is it that where you think people's identities being attacked is, like, that AI is gonna do something I can do?
Shawn:I I I see that a lot that that if you're a three d modeler and now you've you've went, you know, five, six years in school learning how to three d model, and now you can somebody can prompt together a three d model and it's incredibly threatening to your, identity and the fact that you've you know, part of craftsmanship is is it's not just the outcome, it's the journey to get there. And to see someone just prompt something together, a layman just prompt something together and put it out, yeah, that can be in incredibly threatening. I think that's I I certainly believe that that's part of it. And, that's why I see people rejecting it. A lot of young people rejecting it because they think that it's it's it's it's taking away something that they've, you know, they've they've developed over over over some time or something that they wanted
Chris:job they've wanted to do their whole life or something like that. So, well, I mean, it's it's it's going to be the biggest probably societal conversation for decades. And I I just I I I really appreciate thinking about it, particularly because I have a business that can be disrupted by it. And and And to me, I'm comfortable with that because I'm comfortable in the world where everyone's getting disrupted at the same time and moving just faster, quicker, or in a slightly right direction compared to our competitor because the things we deliver and do, which is helping learners achieve competence and prove competence, and that's a whole other thing. We've been talking about identity.
Chris:I mean, I think I think in a world, a post truth world, which is kind of what we live in right now, you know, identity and proof of competency are gonna become, you know and and and it cannot be done now based on cryptography, as you probably know. So but the societal acceptance of a digital identity, but you, it will become your strategic advantage, and meaning, you're not a computer and you can prove it. You know? And Yeah. And there's a certain need for that.
Chris:There will always be, obviously, of course, in the world. So, it's it's it's a fascinating debate. Our business is quite involved in not necessarily digital identity, but identity verification and competency verification. We're adopting these new global protocols, the W3C protocol on verifiable credentials. And it's a whole bet, but we're wrapping around our entire customer product software offering, including training, meaning the new thing we're really trying to offer is proof of competency and not delivering training because that's a that's a commoditized thing.
Chris:And, of course, we're in regulated spaces, so we have a decent moat. But it's it's fascinating. That's that's kinda why I I feel comfortable having more of this conversation because I I need I need as much as every other business owner like me to kinda a sense
Shawn:for how you want. You mentioned moat. What do you do you think that there's existing do you think that moats will still exist in an AI world where you know basically if anybody can do anything, do you think that there is still, you know, resilient moats left?
Chris:I think so. Yeah. I I think so. We we're we're, you know, we're an infrastructure play. We always have been.
Chris:So kind of think of us like a Shopify for, organizations that want to deliver training online, but particularly in the regulated spaces. So like multi tenant storefronts, you can build a site and deliver hunter education in one province and safety training over here. So we have a couple 100 websites that essentially do that across the country. The reality is this one common set of rails and the ability to verify issue verifiable credentials is common to that. And that's a protocol that's interoperable with any other network.
Chris:So our mode is this network that we can attract people into our software and share and distribute our publisher content with them. They can bring their own content into the network. But everything in the network can be trusted. So when you're at the gate at Suncor and you're presenting your two your first aid card and your digitally verifiable first aid credential that you might have received from St. John Ambulance, that one can be verifiably trusted, meaning it's cryptographically provably true, because it's getting a real time, it's a key that's cryptographically matching with the issuer key wherever that credential is issued.
Chris:So all of that becomes a network that can be trusted. And that becomes essentially you can choose to be in one or outside of one. And if you want to build to be in a part of an interoperable world, it's a massive capital investment, a massive risk, and we have this elegant software that just does it. So I'm comfortable with that moat. Think it's going to be asking me to see how it plays.
Chris:But it brings me to this question about the the the the idea of frictionless versus friction full, I guess, to say the wrong thing. And then if you're in the middle, the words I I wrote down, the black hole of mediocrity. So if your company and is completely frictionless or deliberately high friction, explain that for us.
Shawn:Yeah. So my belief is that there's gonna be two types of organizations that will win in the future. There'll be organizations that are incredibly frictionless where you tap a button and you get something delivered to your door. Amazon, Tmall, McDonald's, Uber, Shane, like, it's fast. It's frictionless.
Shawn:You tap a button. It's there. Like, they're gonna win. God bless them. Then there's gonna be a whole slew of companies that actually slow things down.
Shawn:You go to the four seasons. It's incredible experience. You go to Disneyland. It's it's it's an awesome experience with your kids. You go to the Genius Bar at Apple.
Shawn:It's a one on one interaction with somebody. You go to Hermes. It's about craftsmanship. Like, there is a there's a there's a experience. There's there's humanity there's trust when I talk about friction it's about doubling down on humanity and then humanity is about slowing things down and so those companies in a way slow things down so those are the two extremes that we want in the future and my belief is that if you're in the middle, if you're providing a service or a product or anything that is not that fast, it's kind of in the middle or not that you know human and incredibly experiential then you're gonna lose and I would actually argue that everybody should look at their existing processes internally and say, hey, either you make something incredibly fast and, you know, efficient and seamless, or you actually slow things down.
Shawn:And I actually think internally within our organization, that's the lens that we should be looking at our processes and and be deliberate and taking a look at the customer journey or the employee journey and say, okay, what should we actually make, you know, frictionless or where do we actually slow things down? A great example of this as a as an internal example is and somebody asked me about four seasons. Well, know, the four seasons, for example, let's talk about the onboarding or or check-in process at the four seasons. Now, everybody and their mother knows that the sea and you go into a ton of hotels. This most seamless frictionless way of of getting into your hotel room is that you would tap your phone on the door and you would be in beautiful Like that is the that is the least amount of friction to get into a hotel room.
Shawn:But but my argument and I had this argument with with many customer experience folks and and Four Seasons in the room that agrees with me is that actually they deliberately should slow things down because the part of the magic of going into an incredible resort or a Four Seasons is that you talk to someone that's incredible and they tell you about the restaurants and the shops and the food and the concierge and where the gym is and and you know what's in store for their arrival and they come out of their booth and hand you the keys and direct you and walk you to the elevator, there's magic to that and in in an essence it is slowing things down but it's making that experience more meaningful and magical so not everything should be frictionless and in fact maybe something should be slowed down, and and so that's the difference and I actually think that you know a business that's incredibly fast will win and those that are are incredibly slow will win too so that's that's
Chris:that's What you're saying is I didn't interpret so now I think I interpret it differently and and and better and in the sense that and obviously, if you're a brand specific type of organization like the Four Seasons versus the whatever, pick your common traveler, low friction experience that you want in a lower cost hotel experience. But inside an organization, you're talking about processes that are high friction when they should be and low friction, obviously, when they should be. And that kinda just talks about, to me, is quality and productivity. And and I think about that because I was I was debating you in my mind going, well, I have both of these situations in my organization where it would be best to be intentful in both in both different directions, but different parts of the organization. And and to me, what I mean by that is it shouldn't be hard to use my software.
Chris:It shouldn't be hard to use any of our web pages. Or it should be easy to understand the UI, the UX, and the experience for the learner, the impact that they take away from it, how they can spread that impact if they wanna share it. Those kinds of things should be frictionless. But the experience when they reach out to us, you know, we still have a telephone, email, you know, chat, social support. When they're talking to a human, really highly kind of empowered.
Chris:Autonomous behavior by those humans to provide an extraordinary experience makes the difference, right, between where you might who want you'd wanna buy or, you know, partner with, those kinds of things. So I was struggling with it thinking I've gotta be a frictionless organization or I've got and I took it the wrong way. But I do think about does so are you familiar with Salesforce's decision to essentially go to a head to become a headless solution?
Shawn:I mean, I I was just I was just gonna bring that up. I I I think
Chris:Is this what you mean?
Shawn:No. I mean I mean I mean, that's an example of something that's that's an example of making something incredibly intuitive from a frictionless perspective. I think I think Salesforce going headless is is what every software company should do. Because not I've never met a single human on the planet that wants to click through someone's u UI on Workday, ServiceNow, QuickBooks, name any software. No one wants to enter information into any CRM, extract the information.
Shawn:The most seamless way, the most intuitive way of using any software is getting is using the front end as the AI and and saying, hey. Pull the data. What's going on with this? Like natural language and then the agent going off and whether it's clicking through or using an API to pull that information. And I would challenge every software company to say, I I actually don't think that there is another way.
Shawn:Like, I do this today and which is like, if I need to if I need to find out if I'm at a hotel and I'm like, I what what floor is the gym? I'm not going to the Marriott Sheraton Toronto website. I'm gonna go to ChetchyPT or Claude. Hey. Find me what where the gym is on the 4th.
Shawn:That is the moat. That's how everyone is gonna interact. And I think if software companies don't figure that out they're gonna get beaten by AI native companies that understand that the the simplest UI or the user experience is just voice or it's just enter this information into LLM. But I I I'm kind of I'm happy to challenge on that.
Chris:Well, no. I I I like, in terms of chess moves, which I mean, I'm always trying to imagine these outcomes, and it's clear to me. There is no choice. Like, as a as a software company owner who has, you know, three key platforms that provide functions and, you know, training and credentialing in regulated industries, It'll go a little slower there because a lot of our customers are institutional, regulators, government, those kinds of things. They won't be seeking some of those solutions as quickly.
Chris:But ultimately, it's inevitable because the amount the ability for people to build their own interfaces and then use APIs or data or data sharing or AI and even algorithms to shape and bring that back to me the way I want to see it is here now. Like, I can now create my own corporate information dashboard that shows exactly what I want to see, and there's a high likelihood that if I'm not on a software application that provides or gives me an API to that data or it's not configurable, I will be switching to one. And ultimately, I can see that's for software management information that makes sense. It's been around a long time, single sign ons, those kinds of things. But when you start to imagine what's kind of the art of the possible here, if I have an exam software, I'll use that as an example because I don't anymore, we sold that business.
Chris:But if I had one, you know, I can't assume that every activity around that is going to happen on my tech. It should be on, likely should be on someone else's tech. And that might be specific in every different case of each customer. So I think it's inevitable. I'm sure you're right.
Chris:I just think it's going to be disruptive software. And I think it's going to define the new software category as it like, as an investable category, which is trying to find itself right now too. Right? So Yeah.
Shawn:I I think my kids will be like, you're you're what what why are you clicking on this? Why are you clicking the button?
Chris:Yeah. Why do you have to go sign up to this thing? Well, and that that's
Shawn:What is that? Why why didn't you just ask the thing to build you the whole financial statement? Why are you clicking on the thing? I I really do believe that because Yeah. It's it it it just makes sense.
Shawn:And it's kind of like how, you know, I don't I I it's yeah. It's just it's the most natural way. And once our our once this behavior becomes normalized, and you can see it already as people use ChatGPT and not go to websites, it's gonna become normalized. So
Chris:Yep. No. Inevitably, I I know this is hard to do, but you have more than probably anyone I know direct access to some of the biggest companies in the world. You speak and have spoken to, I'm sure, hundreds of them and many or most Fortune 500. So you are at you have a seat at the table with some of these organizations.
Chris:And one thing that I suspect you might have a better sense for and I'd love you to share is the you know, kinda what what is actually inevitable in the next five years where most people aren't taking it serious? I mean, if you had to think of something that you're because you have more context, more broad experience, or maybe because you're in the right rooms. Yeah. What's coming, and what is coming that most people aren't taking serious?
Shawn:Well well well, number one, I think, I have no idea. And I and I and I wanna preface that by saying, I have no idea what's gonna happen in the next five years because I'm not a futurist, and the world is changing very quickly. And the one thing that I will say about the smartest, most, capable, the most knowledgeable people on the planet is that they also have no idea what's gonna happen in the next five years. So what got everyone is actually at the same place where, I think every single leader, even at the biggest and the the best companies in the world, are being blindsided every day about the speed and the evolution of this technology. And no matter if you're in the fortune 50 or or you're a start up, everyone is it it it's just you cannot keep up with the exponential nature of technology because the genie is out of the bottle.
Shawn:So I I think that that that's gonna be true. The the the the the the next piece, though, is that I think some you're you're seeing many organizations take this way too slowly. And what I have seen is that the organizations that are all in, a 100% in, they've now built a DNA when it comes to AI. They're gonna move up 10 to a 100 times faster than those that are 80% in on AI. Because that last 20% is gonna hold everybody back.
Shawn:And what I've seen is that even some with, you know, multi billion dollar companies when they're all in and they said, hey, we are all using this and we're all leveraging this, they're gonna move quicker, faster, and better. They're gonna uplift their people. They're gonna hire more people because of this technology and the gap the only thing I I know is that the gap between those that are just dabbling and are taking this slowly to those that are 100% in that is gonna widen every single minute and at some point you're not gonna be able to catch up because they're just gonna compound and and and just get faster and better because the speed of learning is just faster and you know that's what I'm excited about and and and and and it's not even agentic AI you know I think at some point you're gonna have physical AI I mean it's already here but that's gonna also become an exponential scale. And and if you think about AgenTic AI, that is disrupting everything to do with bits. But what AgenTic, I mean yeah.
Shawn:So so AgenTic AI is disrupting everything to do with bits, but physical AI is disrupting everything to do with atoms. And so there are way more industries that are related to atoms, as you know, manufacturing, mining, construction, you know, you name it, logistics, transportation, but you can't get physical AI with AgenTeq AI. And the companies that actually explore and get benefits out of AgenTeq AI will also be the winners in physical AI, which will create even more opportunities. And so that's the difference. It's you you're either a 100 in or you're gonna be fundamentally left behind.
Chris:It's it it feels like a religion sometimes. I like, me being deeply curious, a reason to really care in terms of my own business and the value I provide my customers. So theoretically, this is part of my job, but truthfully, it's become like a rabbit hole to learn you know, first, how to, you know, use an agent for myself, you know, the ability to extend my, you know, my thoughts into a website, the website for this podcast, all that was built by an AI over a weekend, that kind of stuff that I never ever would have been able to do again. And I noticed that there just seems to be like two kinds of people in my community of like, if I wanna call it, I'm gonna just say business owners or middle aged white guys, whatever you wanna call it. I don't know if that's accurate, but it cuts across my age range for sure in a diverse group of people that are in labor roles all the way to senior executive.
Chris:There's the people that like to turn it off at 05:00, and they've got the hockey circuit they're on. They're on barbecue circuit at the you know, all that kind of stuff. And and and I think they may be discounting this as, like, a subset of the Internet, you know, or or a new type of software or web experience. And I think when I saw AgenTic, it truly sunk in with me like, oh, man, you can do virtually anything. Like you said, you can know everything, and you could do almost any job.
Chris:And it becomes a character trait or what's in your DNA or how deeply curious you might be. Because, you know, I I I'd make the argument, and this will this would be a good place for me to cut over to the to the to the the end of our conversation. But, I had a you you know must know. You probably know Michael Walters. You know, he's an an Edmonton Edmontonian, and, and his son is, roughly 18.
Chris:But he's in that period of time where he's thinking about, okay. What am I gonna do? Like, it's high school or it's university or whatever. And I just laughed. And I said, you know what?
Chris:Get a YouTube premium account and start building something. Just Yep. Get a premium account and start building something, and then go from there. God knows where you'll end up. But if I had to simplify advice I might give someone in that age range right now, I probably would still the same thing same same thing.
Chris:And and I think it applies if you're you're you're just moving into retirement and you're trying to figure out, well, what am I gonna do with all this time? It is such an adventurous and explorative place to live if you are genuinely curious because holy moly, what can you you can do? What what do you I would like you to advise that 18 year old today because it's been a common thread for whatever reasons to some of my episodes, and and I think it's an important one. That person who's at that cusp of that major life decision so maybe it's the retirement, but most likely, it's, you know, that high school age, university aged person in in a in a place like Canada, especially, like, where, you know, most opportunities are available to you, thankfully. But they may not all be good opportunities today.
Chris:You know? Would you wanna get a CA today? Should you still, if you care about finance? You know? So I'd love to end on that.
Chris:I'd love your give advice to that 18 year old that I know you have kids.
Shawn:Yeah. So so yeah. And and I will say, you know, my kid you know, I I obviously think about this a lot because, know, my my kids are younger. They're they're nine, seven, and and three. So, you know, right now, they are learning how to get lost and learning how to, like, make a friend and build grit and resilience.
Shawn:And I think those human aspects are gonna become incredibly more important, obviously, in this AI world. So to me, like, I'm really not worried for them to build any AI skills. But if you're 18 years old, my belief is that you your MBA should be essentially learning, exploring, experimenting, and building and shipping, in this particular space. The more that you could understand what the future is gonna look like, which is gonna the future is gonna be increasing more genetic, and you become comfortable you with using a whole bunch of different tools, I believe that not only are you gonna become more valuable, than any other person in the organization in the organization that you join, but you're actually gonna be one of the most valuable people in any organization. And to be honest with you, I would rather have somebody that is 18 years old, that is building, that's learning, that's hungry than somebody that has been forty, fifty years in a particular industry and checked out.
Shawn:Because the rate of learning is the most important variable, today. And so if you're 18 years old, I would say, dad, mom, listen. I need a credit card to figure out how to use Gemini and OpenClaw and Claude and, you know, leverage all these tools in your particular vertical and just run. And I think it's still valuable to be a lawyer. I think it's still valuable to be a CPA, but being a CPA that understands all the tools that a CPA needs to know, you know, the AI tools that they need to know as a CPA, you're gonna become the most dangerous CPA on the planet.
Shawn:And so I I I think, you know, I think there's gonna be tons of value in those traditional jobs still, like just being a deep specialist, but you have to understand, how to use these tools. And and and that's what I would say. And and to me, I think it's such an exciting time to be a new graduate. I think if you're a new graduate that's curious and hungry, I think you're gonna be unstoppable.
Chris:That's a great way to end it, but I do you you you queued me to ask you one final thing that I think anyone who's act if someone stayed with us to this point, there's there's gonna be half a dozen of you, and I'd like to say thank
Shawn:you personally. By the way, if you stayed up until this point, rate, review, subscribe, whatever you gotta do for this pod because, you know
Chris:Thank you for saying that because I always forget to do that. I'm not I'm not doing this for Lynn. Thank god. So but I do I do I do wanna have more conversations like this one. This one's really been exciting and, always kind of inspiring, for me.
Chris:But when we talk about tools then, give us a rundown. What what are the tools you use, prefer to use, and why, or what tools do you think people should start with if they're thinking about starting? Because it is a mess. You Google something in the Apple Store. That even sounds dumb.
Chris:Those are not the same things. But when you're searching for tools, there is so much noise out there, and a lot of it isn't great. What what's the starter kit for tools, and what do you prefer?
Shawn:Yeah. The the the the starter kit is do just do it scared. Just get into it. It really doesn't matter which tool you start with. It just matters that you start picking it up and seeing what works for you.
Shawn:The point of going to the gym is that it doesn't matter what machine you start with or what machine you use on this. It just matters that you go every single day and you start trying and seeing what works for you. And the point of going to the gym is the first and the second and the five hundredth time that you're there, that all these tools end up becoming lighter in your hand. So I always suggest to pick up as many tools as possible and play. So whether it's, you know and I to me, the models will change every day and it really doesn't matter which model you're using because at some point, something's gonna surpass it at some right now, you know, I would say, you know, ChachiBD 5.5 is really good.
Shawn:Clawd Opus 4.7 is really good. Open Claw is amazing. You know, Perplexity Computer is great. All these tools are amazing. I would say the easiest tools to use right now and the easiest and best tools are Clawd Opus 4.7 and ChatGPT 5.5.
Shawn:I think Perplexity Computer is probably the easiest agentic tool to use right now. I think Open Claw is still at this point the best overall personal AI assistant that you can still have. It takes some time to set up, but once you do it, it's a truly a it's a it's a it's a spiritual experience having a AI assistant at your fingertips. And I would say don't even start with the tool. Go find out what your problems are, what your issues are, then go to any of these different leading large language models and say, these are my challenges.
Shawn:How do I what tools should I be using? And whether you're creative, you're you'll find down go down a path. Oh, I need to use mid journey and Canva. And and by the way, Claude is has synced up with Adobe. Or if you're account if you're a lawyer, you're like, oh, look, I'm gonna try Legora and Harvey, and there's these open source platforms.
Shawn:So every single niche has their own AI tools, and it can be overwhelming. Great. Start with one and then go to the next one because you'll see what works for you. So the point is to get immersed, not to just pick one tool and be done. It's like, how do I build a muscle so that every so I just get stronger every day when I go to the gym?
Shawn:That that to me is the best way to look at it.
Chris:Well, again, I think you're absolutely right. And I I wrote down perplexity because I am you know, I the the the agent open claw model is really, really, really intriguing to me, but it's it's been flawed. And, the one thing that it does do, helps you it helps you fix itself. So luckily, I'm a nontechnical person and I'm opening up a terminal, I don't know how to use terminal, I don't know what that means. But it just tells you what to do.
Chris:It's truly amazing. This has been fun, and and I I continue It's been amazing. Will enjoy watching your success. I mean, you're kinda killing it out there and hitting just higher and higher and higher levels. And, you know, so congratulations for that.
Chris:And, you know, I look forward to the next book and, and always your next video online. So thanks so much.
Shawn:I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. It's such an honor to to be on this pod. You know, I think there are very few people that have the level of curiosity and hunger like you you it's like you're just graduating again and the fact that you're, you know, you're open clawing and you're using all these tools like it really truly is an inspiration and so I think if people can get a a morsel of the level of curiosity that you have for this particular space, I think, you know, they're they're gonna be on their way. So really appreciate you having me on.
Shawn:It's been a it's been a pleasure.