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Listening in to the thinkers working and speaking at the University of Alberta. There’s no shortage of great minds to pick with 400 undergraduate, graduate and professional programs in 18 faculties across five campuses.
00;14;49;05 - 00;15;18;07
Speaker 6
So the question all of that is preface what is the UN declaration and what does it do? And it's important that we all have a common language and a common understanding. So what it is. Has anyone heard of I hope you have maybe not the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Human Beings.
00;15;18;10 - 00;15;52;28
Speaker 6
One of the first documents the UN put together. One strong yes, in the back. So there are many, many human rights declarations and declarations are like that declaration of human rights principles, a global consensus on what is right and what we should all be working towards. You don't sign them, you don't endorse them, you don't ratify them. They are a global standard of principles that we all accept is what's right, and we should be all moving towards as human beings.
00;15;52;29 - 00;16;22;01
Speaker 6
So it's really not negotiable. Once it's passed by the global community, it becomes a standard that we should all be working towards. So what is in the UN declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples specifically, and why do we have it? It is an authoritative statement on what needs to change to remedy the experience of colonization and marginalization of indigenous peoples around the world.
00;16;22;02 - 00;16;53;03
Speaker 6
So it's intended as a global statement, not just specific to Canada or to treaty six, but a global statement. So it has to cover the Masai people of Kenya. They catch what people of Ecuador, for example, the Naga people of northeast India, as well as us here in North America. So there are some very broad principles that are there that we're all expected to put into practice in our own countries, in our own lives.
00;16;53;03 - 00;17;26;21
Speaker 6
So it does some of the basic things that other human rights instruments do, in that it's supposed to bring indigenous peoples up to an equal standard of human rights with all other individuals. But most importantly, for this particular human rights declaration, it needs to bring indigenous peoples up to equal rights of other peoples. So indigenous peoples were left out of the decolonization work that happened at the United Nations, as peoples, as collectives, as nations.
00;17;26;21 - 00;17;56;02
Speaker 6
And so the UN declaration is attempting to remedy that. And that's the important point to understand. It's about individual rights. It's also about rights as nations, as peoples, and making them equal to all other peoples. So there's support for treaties in there. There is support for remaining distinct peoples and distinct cultures. So there's a right not to be assimilated forcibly into other cultures, pursue on visions of development.
00;17;56;02 - 00;18;17;16
Speaker 6
So nations should have choice over whether they go into a development project or not, to put certain conditions on a project that will impact them and it. And this is the key point, I think at the bottom, for most of us in day to day life, indigenous peoples should be part of decision making over matters that impact them.
00;18;17;16 - 00;18;30;04
Speaker 6
They should be at the tables, not just advising, not just consulted, but at the decision making tables when matters impact them.
00;18;30;06 - 00;18;57;09
Speaker 6
Like all declarations in the human rights system, they set a standard, which we were talking. About then. We are all responsible from wherever we sit at the United Nations or in national government, provincial government, even local government or local NGOs, civil society. Wherever we sit, we have a responsibility to implement those standards in day to day life, in rules and principles.
00;18;57;09 - 00;19;23;04
Speaker 6
So that happens at all kinds of levels. And then globally, there are also instruments to monitor and to evaluate. We are currently missing that in Canada, we're supposed to have an independent monitoring body for the UN declaration hasn't happened yet. So we're a little coming up a little short on the third part. But this is the lifecycle of what we're looking at when we look at the declaration.
00;19;23;07 - 00;19;56;10
Speaker 6
So we'll go quickly here. The declaration also indicates that indigenous peoples are the rights holders, and states are the duty bearers, so that the states actually have a full responsibility to implement that declaration on behalf of indigenous peoples, specifically in Canada. And this is where the reconciliation conversation comes in. What does the UN declaration have to do with reconciliation in Canada?
00;19;56;12 - 00;20;00;06
Speaker 6
Well, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada solved that.
00;20;00;06 - 00;20;00;28
Speaker 5
Puzzle for.
00;20;00;28 - 00;20;26;24
Speaker 6
Us when they issued their calls to action in 2015. And there are 94 of them. There are these two specific ones that pull the declaration into this conversation and center it. So the TRC said in call 43 that reconciliation in this country is to mean full adoption and implementation of the UN declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
00;20;26;29 - 00;20;55;27
Speaker 6
It doesn't mean just soft symbolic things here and there. It means full implementation. And of course, there are many ways that has to happen legally in politics and policy and day to day practice. So what are some of those pathways? Just some ideas. You can legislate it. You can bring it to courts. You can do constitutional change. That's more about other countries, because we already have a pretty strong constitution on indigenous rights here in Canada.
00;20;55;28 - 00;21;24;10
Speaker 6
You can take them to international treaty bodies and ask for interpretation. And those are legally binding. And the state has to answer when, when they have recommendations. And then finally on the bottom. And this is where it comes into day to day practice for everyone in this country living it, just doing it in our day to day life, bringing indigenous peoples into decision making, giving that voice, giving a place for consent.
00;21;24;12 - 00;21;33;18
Speaker 6
This is what we talk about norm socialization. So this happens slowly over time and certainly not linear. There will always be.
00;21;33;19 - 00;21;33;27
Speaker 5
Zig.
00;21;33;28 - 00;22;07;01
Speaker 6
Zag motions and then mentioning the the expert mechanism. Again it is part of the implementation of the declaration. Globally. We work both on larger studies. So right now we're finalizing a study on a theme, which is how the rights of indigenous peoples are impacted in conflict and post-conflict situations. Last year we did a study on data sovereignty as well as traditional economies.
00;22;07;03 - 00;22;28;25
Speaker 6
In my time, my five years so far, I've authored or coauthored eight different studies on a variety of topics. Some I knew something about before and some were brand new. And you do a deep dive study into that area and make some recommendations to member states and indigenous peoples. And then we're also responsible for doing some of the monitoring on the global level.
00;22;28;28 - 00;22;30;15
Speaker 6
And where do we sit in the.
00;22;30;15 - 00;22;31;16
Speaker 5
UN.
00;22;31;18 - 00;23;03;22
Speaker 6
In the Geneva apparatus, the Human Rights Council, and we work alongside the Special Rapporteur and the Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues. And we try to think of these three on the bottom as distinct mechanisms, but complementary. So each does one very important piece of indigenous rights implementation work. And we try not to step on each other's toes while we're doing that, because there's a lot of complementarity as well.
00;23;03;24 - 00;23;29;08
Speaker 4
That's great. Thank you for that. And I want to pick up on something you said about symbolism. Right. We think a lot about in institutions, in academia, government and other institutions, our everyday lives that you mentioned. How would you say we move or even recognize symbol symbolic action or checkboxes, if you will, and actual transformative change.
00;23;29;10 - 00;24;07;29
Speaker 6
Excellent question, Nikki. And that is, I think, one of the key questions of of this work when we're looking around us. So in a couple examples in the Canadian context, we legislated the UN declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in 2021. So we have a federal act called the Undo act that directs the government to review existing laws and policies to see if they align with the declaration, begin revising them, and do a national action plan and an annual report.
00;24;07;29 - 00;24;40;16
Speaker 6
And it also said monitoring body, which I mentioned is still missing. Now, I think there's potential in that legislation to be transformative, but we're a long way from that. We've had the earliest stages, I think, of movement. If we turn and look south to Australia as a different example, no legislation, but they have come out quite strong in support of the declaration.
00;24;40;17 - 00;25;09;01
Speaker 6
They have an ambassador for First Nations rights who participates at all of the UN meetings. I would say that is quite symbolic without that transformative potential. And but again, this is the snapshot in time at the moment. So all of these things are dynamic. They're flexible. They shift around back and forth depending on budgets and political will and all kinds of other variables.
00;25;09;04 - 00;25;40;02
Speaker 6
I think one of the pieces that I pay attention to, and this is one of the fundamental tensions that we see in all societies, but especially in liberal democratic ones. It's that part about the collectivity, the collective rights for indigenous people that appear in the declaration, the rights of nations to participate, to give consent and to participate in decision making.
00;25;40;04 - 00;26;11;15
Speaker 6
Our structures and societies and systems are not built for that. They're built to have individuals in a democratic vote or individuals working in politics. So what we're asking the society to do is actually do a big shift, a transformative structural change to learn how to engage with indigenous peoples, as peoples, as collectives. So that becomes a challenge. And I don't think authoritarian societies are any better at it.
00;26;11;16 - 00;26;55;16
Speaker 6
So it's it's it's something that we all have to work on. But it is is equally difficult for authoritarian and democratic societies. And I think that's, that's one of the, the, the road bumps that we have in front of us. And I think one of the stumbling blocks in Canada that's also shared with Australia, New Zealand, the Nordics, because we are such an individualist system and an individualist construction that when we begin talking about indigenous collective rights, they get coded as special rights and therefore there becomes political resistance to them.
00;26;55;19 - 00;27;28;25
Speaker 6
And so we have this job as, as leaders to try to explain why the declaration is actually a remedy, not something special, that there's actually a deficit that we're trying to overcome and that we have to. And this is so much work, educate and open minds to the idea that we in order to get this right, we're going to have to redesign some systems and structures and begin thinking in some some different ways and novel ways.
00;27;28;25 - 00;27;49;11
Speaker 6
And that's hard. Systems don't want to change, and individuals aren't that crazy about it either. But in order to reach this equal and human rights standard that the world expects, it is our obligation to somehow get there.
00;27;49;14 - 00;28;22;12
Speaker 4
Thank you for that. A lot of work there. And picking up on on what you were saying about Canada's role in the global arena vis a vis I'm thinking now about some of the tensions, because you also mentioned that Canada hasn't done the best job meeting the TRC goals. So, I mean, the latest report from indigenous watchdog, for instance, as of March 1st this year, is that out of the 94 calls to action, so for 14 have been completed.
00;28;22;12 - 00;28;52;24
Speaker 4
And we have scholars like Eva Joule and Ian Mosby at the Yellowhead Institute calling this low hanging fruit again, sort of symbolic checkboxes again, if you will. And so on the global stage, Canada is often lauded and upheld as the multicultural success story, especially compared to the United States. We're seeing as pluralistic, you know, an exemplar of liberal democracy working in a good way.
00;28;52;28 - 00;29;18;01
Speaker 4
So I'm wondering if you can speak to maybe some of the tensions or impacts that Canada's well, poor grade on, on the TRC and meeting those action goals has regarding any kind of moral authority or, you know, something to really say on global indigenous rights when when rights at home aren't really being respected?
00;29;18;04 - 00;29;45;17
Speaker 6
Yes. And if I can just put in another little data point in the government's own reporting, it says that it has achieved or made progress on more than half of them. So again, we need independent monitoring and assessment on this, because the gap between what the indigenous voices are saying and what the government says are its own progress are is quite a large gap.
00;29;45;17 - 00;30;17;09
Speaker 6
And and so we need to keep drawing attention to what looks to me like a pretty big fiction on the government website. And so, you know, no one should ever only assess themselves that we know that doesn't work. If you could all grade yourselves, I'm sure that would be a marvelous thing. And I don't want I mean, it would be lovely if I could just annually put in my own report and have that accepted, as, you know, stellar every year we know as humans that we need someone else to take an independent look.
00;30;17;09 - 00;30;47;16
Speaker 6
So this is not rocket science. And I think we can do a much better job with that. Canada's position in the global arena is so tricky because all the things, all the things, the journey on reconciliation is far from complete here. We all are aware of that. I mean, the drinking water promises have not been met. Missing and murdered indigenous women is a disaster.
00;30;47;19 - 00;31;18;28
Speaker 6
The poverty, the inequality, inequalities. We know, we know. And yet when Canada is in the global arena, they are held up. They read off statements about how many wonderful things have happened in UN reports. Relatively. They look pretty good because we talk about section 35 in the Constitution. We talk about legislative changes. Some of the court cases get get highlighted in UN reports.
00;31;18;28 - 00;31;48;21
Speaker 6
So there's a lot of good news on a global scale. But that doesn't overshadow the struggles that we have. And another tension that is really tough to navigate is even when you know they're not doing that well, when you look around for states that can be allies in in your movements in the UN spaces, Canada is usually there, Australia is usually there.
00;31;48;21 - 00;32;16;02
Speaker 6
And Australia is full of problems where indigenous peoples are concerned. Norway is there and Norway is full of problems right now with and gas and green energy. And they are not upholding indigenous rights in the way that they're supposed to. But we also rely on those states to deal with the states that are even worse. And so in the in the global arena, you have to kind of play some diplomatic politics.
00;32;16;04 - 00;32;20;15
Speaker 6
And sometimes that means.
00;32;20;17 - 00;32;36;01
Speaker 6
Trying to balance what we see here versus what we need internationally. So there's always this inner conflict that that goes along with that. And now.
00;32;36;04 - 00;33;12;18
Speaker 6
I worry a lot because a lot of what has the victories that have taken place in the global arena on indigenous rights have been significant in terms of getting these norms and getting them into treaty body work, getting them really emerged and dispersed throughout the global system. We're at a place now where the world Bank and the FAO, the federal or the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations have real guidelines about working with indigenous peoples in the global South.
00;33;12;18 - 00;33;45;19
Speaker 6
And I mean their models really of what could be. So there's a lot of good news in the global level, but it came at a particular time of multilateral strength that is right now shifting and changing under our feet, and we don't exactly know where we're headed. Multilateralism certainly is under strain. International law is very stressed. And so a lot of the good news has happened in that system.
00;33;45;19 - 00;34;13;26
Speaker 6
So I'm very worried about where we're going. And then again, I get into this inner conflict with Canada because Canada is one of the cheerleaders, one of the champions for rule of law, international law and the multilateral system, or what's left of it, and hopes to buttress that and support that. So we get into this push pull game with Canada that we always have.
00;34;13;29 - 00;34;37;24
Speaker 6
So what I've been trying to make clear to when I have their attention to Canada, to Denmark, to Norway, to Australia is now is not the time. I mean, we know that there are economic issues. We know there are security issues. We know there are militarization issues. It's not the time to abandon indigenous rights because it's expensive or it's inconvenient.
00;34;37;27 - 00;34;47;19
Speaker 6
Stay the course. Keep to those principles because we rely on that group to keep us on some kind of footing.
00;34;47;22 - 00;35;22;18
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, very complex issue for sure. And speaking about borders, as you as you mentioned, and as everyone knows, you know, the 49th parallel, right. The Canada-US border is it's a colonial border. It's arbitrary. It wasn't always there. What advice would you give leaders and academics interested in talking about human rights and adhering to and indigenous rights in Canada, but recognizing that there is that border now.
00;35;22;20 - 00;35;59;06
Speaker 6
Again, it's it's it's a tough pill to swallow. And I think for most indigenous peoples, there's a recognition that those borders are colonial, that they were placed down without sometimes our knowledge, certainly not without our consent. And, you know, I remember a time pre nine over 11 when my world, the Ojibwe world, was quite porous borders we could cross very easily.
00;35;59;08 - 00;36;28;25
Speaker 6
We had strong relations north, south, and it was just a different world that you're all too young to to know about. But it was so easy to drive across or to boat across that border and join family for ceremonies, or to do business, or just go out to lunch. There was rarely a border guard there, and so we were able to really have strong relationships.
00;36;28;26 - 00;36;53;16
Speaker 6
911 changed out all of that. So all of a sudden there were armed guards at the border and ID checks and all of these things, you know, a lot more militarization of the border. But we still, as indigenous people, have the right to maintain those family and ceremonial and commercial relationships across borders. And it isn't just the North America is the southern border of the US to Mexico.
00;36;53;17 - 00;37;31;25
Speaker 6
Many, many, many indigenous peoples are cut by borders. So this is a very common experience globally. And I think in terms of indigenous solidarity there, I think the indigenous tends to come first and the nationality or the passport tends to come second. And so there I have seen already quite strong solidarity and reach outs and support to indigenous peoples on the other side of the border, because there's a a real acknowledgment of what they're going through.
00;37;31;25 - 00;37;48;28
Speaker 6
And and this is true all over the world. The declaration is specific about it, that indigenous peoples have the right to engage in cross-border relations, and states have the obligation to uphold that. But in practice, it's really, really challenging.
00;37;49;01 - 00;37;57;15
Speaker 4
Absolutely. Before I go to my next question, did we have a question over here? Yeah.
00;37;57;17 - 00;38;24;22
Speaker 7
Yeah. I was just wondering, like right from the beginning, you mentioned the original what was a declaration established by the United Nations regarding human rights. And then you also, you know, made the claim that that original declaration was excluding indigenous people. I'm just sort of curious about actually how it excludes indigenous people, because I don't really know enough about the declaration.
00;38;24;22 - 00;38;41;14
Speaker 7
And if it is, as I understand, a declaration regarding human rights, is it explicitly saying that indigenous people don't have those human rights? And how is that actually being undertaken or undergone, essentially?
00;38;41;17 - 00;39;26;22
Speaker 6
And sorry if I wasn't clear, indigenous peoples were excluded from the decolonization work of the United Nations, not the original Declaration of Human Rights, but the Declaration of Human Rights from 1948 was agnostic about indigenous peoples, did give us the foundation that all people have human rights individually and as collectives. What happened through the 1950s and 60s is that as the UN developed its whole decolonization program, because remember, at the end of World War Two, the world was made up of about ten different empires British, French had colonies, Dutch had colonies.
00;39;26;22 - 00;40;02;01
Speaker 6
And it was time to decolonize. So during the 1950s and 60s was when those discussions were happening and the global community decided what the rules and procedures of decolonization were going to be, meaning the victors of World War two, right? Because after a war, the victors designed the new rules. So decolonization was designed to give statehood to peoples that had been colonized.
00;40;02;03 - 00;40;37;13
Speaker 6
The conversations in the 1950s and 60s deliberately excluded indigenous peoples from that right. It's something called the saltwater thesis or the blue water thesis. And I could go into great detail, but here's here's how it happened. The great powers were sitting in the halls of Geneva in New York, writing the new rules for decolonization, the country of Belgium that held some colonies in Central Africa said, if we have to give up our colonies, we think all of you should have to decolonize.
00;40;37;15 - 00;41;03;19
Speaker 6
That means you two United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. They objected. They said, no, no, internal colonies don't count. The only ones that get the right to decolonize form a new nation state are the ones over salt water. Salt water theses got it. So they were deliberately left out of the right to self-determination.
00;41;03;21 - 00;41;04;16
Speaker 7
Let's see what you're saying.
00;41;04;18 - 00;41;34;19
Speaker 6
Yeah, yeah. But one of the problems with the human rights system, which has been less deliberate, more of an absence, is the focus on individual human rights versus collective human rights. And this is where the challenge for indigenous peoples comes in, because indigenous peoples have rights as individuals to equality, same as everyone else, but they also have rights as peoples that were left out of the earlier conversations.
00;41;34;22 - 00;41;41;09
Speaker 8
If you wouldn't mind. Secondarily, can I ask you what the difference is between recording? Oh yeah. No problem.
00;41;41;11 - 00;42;01;02
Speaker 7
Secondarily, can I ask you what the difference is between individual human rights and collective human rights are? Because I don't actually know what the difference is. And how would that actually manifest itself in terms of the change that you're looking for, specifically opening people's minds, like you mentioned before?
00;42;01;05 - 00;42;45;00
Speaker 6
Okay, I appreciate the question. The rights of individuals are quite simple life, liberty, equality. Every human has them inherently by virtue of being human. Then peoples under the UN system, peoples also have the right of self-determination. During the 1960s that got defined peoples meant independent sovereign nation state, that peoples had the right to self-determination, defined as a new nation state that works for some, not for others.
00;42;45;02 - 00;42;58;14
Speaker 6
What the UN declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples does is recognize that indigenous peoples are also peoples, and they have the right to self-determination.
00;42;58;16 - 00;43;20;13
Speaker 6
But almost no indigenous peoples make a claim for or want to be an independent sovereign nation state. They want something different. They want the right to be at the table and considered as collectives in conversations about matters that will impact them.
00;43;20;15 - 00;43;49;07
Speaker 6
Does that begin to make sense? But the system has not been well set up to do that. And it's complicated because there are many indigenous peoples in the in North American context. So it becomes a very real challenge of how to bring indigenous peoples into decision making conversations. And there's not necessarily one answer. Each of those answers is going to look a little different wherever you go in the world.
00;43;49;09 - 00;44;08;05
Speaker 6
But the important thing is, is that now the human rights system says, yes, indigenous peoples have a collective right to self-determination and all that comes with it, but we don't have all the answers on how how we do that.
00;44;08;07 - 00;44;53;29
Speaker 4
Thank you. It's a really, really complex topic and a lot to learn as you were speaking, Cheryl, and from your from your questions here in the audience, it got me thinking about how indigenous issues, clearly from that human rights perspective back in the 50s at the UN, are often framed as domestic issues and not international. So a lot of times when you talk about looking at international indigenous rights or indigeneity, you know, even within academic disciplines, that can be, you know, it's an understudied topic, if you will, because, again, a lot of times it's seen as comparative politics or something within the nation state as a domestic issue rather than a foreign policy or rather
00;44;53;29 - 00;45;17;13
Speaker 4
than a global issue. So it's really great to have your perspective here and share with us why why that's not the case and why we need to look at this on a global scale. I wanted to take the conversation back to something that you had mentioned, and it was about by, in and for folks changing minds, it can be a hard sell sometimes.
00;45;17;16 - 00;45;38;25
Speaker 4
People are creatures of habit and it can be scary. It can be overwhelming, there can be resistance to change, but just in an everyday way. I mean, all of us are here at the University of Alberta. We have students, faculty and staff across disciplines. We've got kinesiology here, we've got Native studies, the Peter Lloyd School of Political Science, and so on.
00;45;38;27 - 00;46;05;20
Speaker 4
And so I'm wondering then, you know, for for students, for professors, for for university folks, what advice would you say to start bringing into all these different disciplines? How how might folks start thinking about centering indigenous knowledges, ways of knowing and especially sovereignty and self-determination?
00;46;05;22 - 00;46;31;19
Speaker 6
Big questions, big questions that during my leadership years at UBC, we were grappling with because again, there's no single answer for how to do this work, and it requires us to all be thinking humans. Which is why I'm so glad to see everyone in the room to begin thinking in new and different directions. And I think.
00;46;31;21 - 00;46;58;25
Speaker 6
I got asked a lot by different department heads or deans, and let me just back up for a second. When we did the UBC Indigenous Strategic Plan, our recommendation was not that each department had or Dean get out their spreadsheet and number to 1 to 46 and then say on the spreadsheet how they were responding to each of the action items.
00;46;58;28 - 00;47;24;18
Speaker 6
That is unfair, because some faculties and some departments had been doing indigenous work for 50 years. Education, for example, had had an indigenous program since the 70s. So they were way out here. Arts was somewhere in the middle, and then pharmacy hadn't even had a thought about how they should work with indigenous people or indigenous knowledge that never occurred to them.
00;47;24;21 - 00;47;56;04
Speaker 6
So the gap was tremendously wide. What we suggested instead was take a look at all of the action, the calls to action, and from where you sit, begin to think about where you can make progress and think about how you can get there. And here's a whole system of committees and advisories that can help you begin to think, because I got asked by the head of mathematics, for example, how should I think about indigenous knowledge in mathematics?
00;47;56;04 - 00;48;36;25
Speaker 6
And I'm like, I don't know, I'm not a mathematician. I don't have an answer for you. But what I can suggest is you start reaching out to indigenous peoples and indigenous organizations and begin asking them, where do you see yourself in math? Is there a way that indigenous knowledges can come into math? Go find some indigenous graduate students who may have already been thinking about this in terms of what it means in math, in engineering, and I think with a little bit of of effort and again, conversation, open mindedness, outreach, there's space for indigenous knowledge in every single discipline.
00;48;36;28 - 00;49;04;26
Speaker 6
Some more, some less, some some. It's obvious social work, education, law. These are well-known, well-trodden paths. But there are new places. But still there's indigenous knowledge in biology. There's indigenous knowledge about math, about astronomy. We've had all that our elders and our ancestors knew how to read the stars. They knew how to calculate. Maybe not in the same system.
00;49;04;29 - 00;49;23;09
Speaker 6
Maybe it's a totally different way of thinking, but it's out there. And so I challenged everyone to go find it, but do so also. And this is where the advice comes in in a way that's respectful and not extractive, so that it's it's done in a good way.
00;49;23;11 - 00;49;34;08
Speaker 4
Absolutely. I know our students and faculty from from native studies, from political science will understand this term extractive. Could you briefly explain what you mean by that.
00;49;34;09 - 00;50;14;23
Speaker 6
Taking without giving extractive. When we extract minerals from the ground in industry, we take without giving back. And an extracting practice in academia means we're taking someone's knowledge or someone's intellectual property without permission or without in a reciprocal relationship. And so I challenge everyone to not be extractive, that when you're looking for indigenous advice or indigenous input, that it's done in the form of a relationship, and so that it's not a one way taking.
00;50;14;26 - 00;50;32;08
Speaker 4
That's really great. And so if you were to say if you had to have one piece of advice, especially for non-Indigenous allies, how to be a good ally and not be extractive, what would you say, especially for students looking to perhaps have a career in academia or go into government themselves?
00;50;32;11 - 00;51;05;13
Speaker 6
It's always good practice to think about how you would feel if someone were coming for your knowledge and your things, and not compensating you for it, or engaging in a relationship that's reciprocal. And if you put yourself in that place and think about what what that good, full circle relationship might look like, sharing one way means sharing back.
00;51;05;15 - 00;51;15;13
Speaker 6
Giving means giving multiple directions. And so I, I would ask everyone.
00;51;15;15 - 00;51;38;23
Speaker 6
To be very considerate about that relationality component. And if again, if you need someone's advice in their indigenous, think about what you can offer back that's actually a value to them, and so that it becomes a full circle relationship rather than one direction.
00;51;38;25 - 00;51;59;28
Speaker 4
That's great. Thank you for that. I think a lot of times, students and staff and faculty here about, you know, hear about these things without any practical advice, right? It's almost become a buzzword of reconciliation and allyship without thought to what does that actually mean? Or the how do you go to start doing that? I think we have a question back there.
00;52;00;07 - 00;52;19;15
Speaker 9
So you mentioned earlier about lot of the political shifts, and we've noticed, I'm least I've noticed post-Covid and regime change down in the South that we've regressed. I feel as a country the rise of things like one BC and British Columbia and other, these groups where they feel emboldened. As you said, the difference between these are not special rights.
00;52;19;15 - 00;52;41;12
Speaker 9
This is bridging a gap of a deficit. So as allies and as indigenous people, how can we use our collective political action to counter this? Because this is something I feel is regressing us as a country and is actually putting us back from a lot of advancement we've done for a long period of time that comes out of residential school denialism and things like that.
00;52;41;12 - 00;52;54;24
Speaker 9
And it's there's no easy answer because they're loud, they're obnoxious, and they don't listen to anything other than their own narrow point of view.
00;52;54;26 - 00;53;35;20
Speaker 6
Yes, I said, I'm very worried. And I'm not just worried about larger geopolitics, although that is a big concern to me. I'm also worried about politics in this country, and BC stresses me a lot right now. And let me just give you my perspective on that. And it's kind of a high level perspective. I think the indigenous rights advances moved a tremendous speed internationally for a while, and then got picked up by courts.
00;53;35;22 - 00;54;05;22
Speaker 6
And the first move was the tiny little country of Belize, where some of us sometimes go for a Caribbean holiday. They were the first ones to pick it up in the courts 2007. And then there was a shift to New Zealand. And New Zealand made some great progress in the courts between about 2010 and 20 1819. Massive movement like courts recognizing indigenous rights and telling government to act.
00;54;05;24 - 00;54;42;22
Speaker 6
We know what happened in New Zealand. They had a huge political pushback. Canada's courts kind of took over from 2019, 2020 till now, and they have begun rigorously interpreting and very generously interpreting indigenous rights in the courts and a very strong upward trajectory. Meanwhile, other human rights courts, Inter-American court, African Court great strides the UN system tremendous. Politically, none of us are ready.
00;54;42;24 - 00;55;11;24
Speaker 6
As a society, we are not collectively ready to do the pluralism that we need to do the transformation that we need. And we're that sticking point right now, new Zealand's at that sticky point. Australia is probably not far behind because, again, in my view, what's expected of us by the UN system, by the human rights system now by the domestic courts is exceeding what we're capable of doing.
00;55;11;24 - 00;55;40;20
Speaker 6
And a lot of it has to deal with, I think this individual focus versus how do we think, how do we accept that indigenous peoples are collectives with rights? How do we build that into decision making and policy making? It's there in law now. How do we do it? And it's we're at a really difficult transition point, and we may or may not get through this transition point.
00;55;40;20 - 00;56;07;29
Speaker 6
We may have to have another one down the road, I don't know. But what we're being asked to do and what BC is being asked to do in particular is deal with the coexistence of Aboriginal title and private property that they, the judge, is saying, and the law now says they coexist, figure it out and people don't like to change.
00;56;07;29 - 00;56;21;04
Speaker 6
Bureaucracies are built not to change. They are deliberately designed to not change. So we're up against a lot right now in order to get past this difficult moment.
00;56;21;06 - 00;56;40;06
Speaker 6
It takes my breath away. But we're at one of those really difficult pivot points in history, and New Zealand is pretty close in the same spot. And then we add in geopolitics, and we've got ourselves a really sticky pot right now.
00;56;40;08 - 00;57;15;05
Speaker 6
But I don't think this is impossible. And I'll tell you why. We have a system that is capable of dealing with collectives. Municipalities have collective rights. They can say yes or no to projects that will impact them. Pipelines can get rerouted when a when a municipality says no. And case in point, do people remember Dakota Access pipeline?
00;57;15;08 - 00;57;45;10
Speaker 6
Some of you are younger. You were really young. So this was the pipeline, of course, from North Dakota that was going to pass through and just touch the standing Rock reservation, not on reserved land, but just going just touch it, just kissing it. And when that pipeline route was being developed, the city of Bismarck, North Dakota, that's upstream on the Missouri River had a process.
00;57;45;10 - 00;58;10;10
Speaker 6
They were welcome to the table. And they were shown the plans about the pipeline and the city of Bismarck as a collective voiced concerns about what if there's a spill on the pipeline and it would affect our water? And they said, we can accept this pipeline, but we want the the route redrawn so that it's south of the city of Bismarck, not north, so that our water supply is safe.
00;58;10;13 - 00;58;37;24
Speaker 6
And the pipeline was rerouted because the city of Bismarck gave its consent with the condition, move it so that we're safe on our water supply. So that's what consent looks like with a collective. And we're very well set up for it. We have systems, we have structures. We have a democracy that accepts that provinces, for the most part, also have consent, although there are exceptions, and they have a lot of say over what happens in their territory.
00;58;37;29 - 00;58;48;29
Speaker 6
What we haven't figured out yet is how to do that for indigenous peoples. But we have the systems, we have the tools. We just need to broaden our thinking.
00;58;49;01 - 00;59;16;18
Speaker 4
I really appreciate you taking us. You know, it's a very difficult time. It's a highly polarized time, you know, not only in Canada but but in the world. And so to to take us back to the successes, the opportunities and recognizing change. And so when we think about different legal systems in place and possibilities, we have different mechanisms for these collective conversations and policies.
00;59;16;20 - 00;59;34;24
Speaker 4
Of course, the other piece to that is measuring that accountability. And so what do you think some indigenous led indicators might look like to measure success and change beyond a okay, we implemented this check.
00;59;34;27 - 01;00;12;17
Speaker 6
Another sticky question, but I think we can start with what we know is insufficient. When we start looking at how to measure success in transformation or successfully transform systems. Unfortunately, a lot of the tools that we have, diversity, statistics and so on are measuring indigenous presence. They are not yet set up to measure indigenous influence or indigenous leadership and indigenous inputs into decision making.
01;00;12;20 - 01;00;47;05
Speaker 6
And so this is where, again, I challenge us as deep thinking people to come up with, how do we measure what's the standard that says when a program has had sufficient indigenous voice in leadership, or has had indigenous voice in a decision making situation, not just one indigenous seat at a larger decision making table, and not just an advisory, but a lot of this won't show up in statistics.
01;00;47;09 - 01;01;25;01
Speaker 6
So I'm not saying that we should get rid of all of our statistical measures, because I think that would put us in a dangerous position. But how can we think in additional directions about what it means to think about success in indigenous leadership and indigenous voice, in indigenous participation? And I think that challenges us to rethink some of our forms of governance all the way from Ottawa, right into university spaces or into NGO spaces, civil society, into municipalities.
01;01;25;01 - 01;01;46;28
Speaker 6
What does it mean? What is the indigenous engagement of that governing institution, and how can it better acknowledge indigenous voice in those decisions? I think there are.
01;01;47;01 - 01;02;15;22
Speaker 6
If anyone is going into areas like program evaluation and program assessment, I would challenge you to begin to bring us practical tools and assessment frameworks for these individualized spaces. There's a lot of work to do here, because the question always is, even if you design a whole new program or a whole new structure, how do you know in 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years, whether it's been a success or not?
01;02;15;24 - 01;02;32;28
Speaker 6
We need some kind of tools. We need frameworks. So if I would say for any of you that are university students, if you're looking for a lucrative job opportunity, there's plenty of space here. And collectively we could all use it.
01;02;33;00 - 01;03;09;12
Speaker 4
That's really great. My final question for you then, you've mentioned throughout your talks that there's a lot of work to do. There's no shortage of work to do. There's a lot of very sticky situations and tensions to work through, thinking about a collective community of care. What would your advice be to these future leaders in the room here on how to do this important work, but without burning out, and to do it in a sustainable way that, you know, the next generation and the one after aren't having to start from scratch.
01;03;09;14 - 01;03;55;21
Speaker 6
Burnout is real in academia, in professional spaces and indigenous professionals everywhere do a double burden of work. There's always the need to be excellent in your field or your area. For scholars, that means being an excellent scholar and meeting all the standards so that you get to keep working. And then there's all of this other burden that comes along with it to of leadership, of redesigning systems, of educating people, of, of opening minds, of just constantly doing this additional labor burden.
01;03;55;26 - 01;04;27;04
Speaker 6
I wish I could say there's a way around that. But there really, truly isn't. So my best advice is in your day to day life, be aware always of the double burden that you're carrying. And for those who are non-Indigenous, be aware of the double burden that your indigenous colleagues are carrying and look out for each other. It's if you can't change something in life, you have to figure out how to accept that and navigate it.
01;04;27;04 - 01;04;34;11
Speaker 6
So I think that's where community of care is very important. And.
01;04;34;14 - 01;05;07;27
Speaker 6
I have to emphasize rest. Rest and recuperation is essential. We can't show up every day at full throttle. We absolutely must find places of groundedness and peace in order to face the the challenges of of next week. So part of looking after each other and looking after oneself is making sure to find those places of rest and grounding you.
01;05;07;27 - 01;05;20;19
Speaker 6
Just your body and your mind and your spirit just can't go on forever without that. So absolutely rest. It's also, I think.
01;05;20;22 - 01;06;05;08
Speaker 6
Extremely important to always remember in indigenous people's work, there is no upward linear trajectory. There will always be big bumps in the road, there will be backlash. There will be times of retreat. Don't lose hope. It's a long, long term struggle and you're always needing to balance long term vision with urgency. And one of my best mentors always said, you know, the urgent will always trump the important, and you'll have 100 important things on your list.
01;06;05;08 - 01;06;47;19
Speaker 6
And 1 or 2 things will always become urgent. And you have to attend to those, but never attend to the urgent at the cost of the important. And so again, it's keeping in balance and figuring out how to keep keep that balance and support one another. And I think I alluded to this already, but one of the things that I've also learned from some of my elders and mentors who are now in their 70s and still flying on planes and going to meetings all over the place, never lose hope, never lose positivity, always get up tomorrow and go again.
01;06;47;21 - 01;07;07;13
Speaker 6
You will get knocked down a lot, but the vision is long and you just keep on going. And they all say our ancestors taught us that too. And we just pick ourselves up, brush ourselves off and start the new day and keep as positive as we can.
01;07;07;15 - 01;07;09;19
Speaker 4
Those are great. Thank you so much.
01;07;09;21 - 01;07;10;09
Speaker 8
Yes, thank.
01;07;10;09 - 01;07;16;20
Speaker 1
You again, Doctor Lightfoot, for to sharing your experience, your your knowledge.
01;07;16;20 - 01;07;17;07
Speaker 8
We we.
01;07;17;09 - 01;07;18;10
Speaker 1
Absolutely appreciate that.
01;07;18;10 - 01;07;22;17
Speaker 8
On behalf of the Peter Law School of Leadership and the High School of.
01;07;22;17 - 01;07;31;28
Speaker 1
Politics and Democracy. Many things to think about for the people in the room. And on behalf of our guests and students.
01;07;32;00 - 01;07;33;13
Speaker 8
We.
01;07;33;16 - 01;08;02;19
Speaker 1
Want to thank you for being part of this conversation. And thank you to the students in the room for being a part of this conversation. And thank you to our recording crew for making sure that this conversation is recorded so that it can be passed on to others who weren't able to join us today. Well, we'll be concluding the sort of the formal part of our of our conversation here, you know, for the students that that perhaps need to or want to get to their next classes, we do invite you to stick around, continue the conversation, mingling amongst yourselves.
01;08;02;19 - 01;08;28;27
Speaker 1
We'll have some more refreshments for you to to do that and to hopefully lubricate that conversation as we as we conclude today. And I would like to again gratefully thank our Elder Leona for for sharing her her presence with us today and perhaps apologize on behalf of the leadership that lead you astray this morning to to many other places on the campus.
01;08;28;29 - 01;08;48;05
Speaker 1
But we're happy that you found that you were able to find your way, or that we were able to send out people to help you find your way and and have you here. I believe our drummers are still here to to close our ceremony. Is that correct, Angela? Oh. Oh, okay. Never mind then I apologize. Then then what we'll do is we will indeed close that.
01;08;48;05 - 01;09;16;27
Speaker 1
And again thank you everybody. And please, if you if you can stick around to continue the conversation we would love to have you around. So thank you everybody.
01;09;16;29 - 01;09;32;27
Speaker 3
I.
01;09;32;29 - 01;09;37;13
Speaker 3
I, I.
01;09;37;15 - 01;10;06;23
Speaker 3
I.
01;10;06;26 - 01;10;10;09
Speaker 3
Play all the.
01;10;10;11 - 01;10;18;14
Speaker 3
Way down.
01;10;18;16 - 01;10;33;13
Speaker 3
And I thank God no. Oh my favorite for you. I just my upon fellow I, I did help.