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Envisioning the 'gloriously ordinary life'
"The big picture for me in co-production is how do we enable people to flourish to get a gloriously ordinary life?
"Think of it about, you know, it could be 15,000 piece jigsaw."
Bringing his experience - as someone who has cared for family, received care, and who has a view of the 'big picture' system - Dr Clenton Farquharson speaks with James in this insightful episode of Carer Catalysts.
Exploring how we can make a shared, positive vision for social care a reality, through to why we need to see co-production as a 'long-term relationship' (not a 'one-night-stand'), Clenton offers a refreshing, passionate perspective of what can be done - right now and in the coming years - to innovate carer support. Expect to hear James and Clenton talking about love, joy, curiosity, creativity and unleashing potential - not just funding entitlements, reform and the systematic language we've become so familiar with. We hope you enjoy listening!
During the interview, Clenton mentions a few resources that we think our audience might find of interest, check them out here:
- (00:48) - Introducing Dr Clenton Farquharson
- (03:51) - How do we make the Social Care Futures vision a reality?
- (07:43) - The Archbishops’ Commission on Reimagining Care
- (08:45) - Love and Social Care
- (11:03) - Co-production: It needs to be a long-term relationship
- (13:55) - Unleashing the creativity in co-production
- (14:49) - What can Commissioners and Carers Leads do now to introduce more co-production?
- (17:51) - Making curiosity part of the conversation
- (25:03) - Rewards and recognition in co-production
- (27:50) - How can we get past blockers to making exciting things happen?
- (33:27) - James and Suzanne's takeaways from the conversation with Clenton
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The views of guests participating in this podcast are their own and may not represent the views of any affiliated organisation. The content is provided for information purposes only and does not constitute financial, medical or legal advice.
The views of guests participating in this podcast are their own and may not represent the views of any affiliated organisation. The content is provided for information purposes only and does not constitute financial, medical or legal advice.
Creators & Guests
Host
Host
What is Carer Catalysts?
Tune in to Carer Catalysts - a podcast connecting innovators for unpaid carers.
There's a sense of hope bubbling away in the world of carer support. There's a hope that right now we're bringing new, exciting, innovative solutions that could be truly transformative - helping us all to care, and thrive.
But innovation is no mean feat. That's why we've been speaking with the people who are catalysing the change. These are leaders in carer support whose journeys and experiences have brought them to the forefront of innovation for the UK's 10.6 million unpaid carers. They're here, on this podcast, to help share a bold vision. And to hopefully inspire you too.
Carer Catalysts is brought to you by Suzanne Bourne and James Townsend - Co-Founders of Mobilise, an innovative digital service that reaches and supports hundreds of thousands of unpaid carers.
0:01
Hello and welcome to Carer Catalysts, a podcast that connects innovators for unpaid carers.
0:07
I'm Suzanne Co-founder and Head of Carer Support at Mobilise.
0:12
I'm also caring for my husband, Matt, who has young onset Parkinson's, and I'm James CEO and Co-founder of Mobilise.
0:19
But perhaps more importantly, I'm son to my mum, who has MS and at Mobilise
0:23
We believe that with innovation, technology and a bold vision, we can help carers to thrive.
0:29
And we're bringing the same energy to this hearing from inspiring leaders in adult social care from across the country, listening to their stories about making transformational change for unpaid carers.
0:40
So sit back, grab a cup of tea and join us for Carer Catalysts brought to you by Mobilise.
0:48
So, James, hello again.
0:50
So you've been chatting to Clenton.
0:52
Farquharson. Sounds like a great conversation.
0:56
But tell us, first of all, who's Clenton?
0:58
Well, so bit of a legend, , and and actually in addition to being a fantastic personality, you know, there there's a it It's so great, you know, to have a bit of a laugh in in these, , , conversations and you really get a a flavour of, , Clenton's personality coming through, I think, in the interview here.
1:16
But what what makes him a really valuable person to speak to in this particular sphere is that he's got experience in three different directions.
1:25
So he's got experience giving care to a family member, and he talks a little bit about that at the beginning of the interview.
1:31
He's also someone who has received care as well, and he then also has the dimension that he's been involved in a range of organisations.
1:40
Looking at the sort of the big picture system level of how we manage social care in this country and he's he's got, , quite a range of expertise on that.
1:49
So really interesting perspective.
1:51
, and it was great to have a chat to him.
1:54
Definitely.
1:54
He is always great to listen to, isn't he?
1:56
He's so human.
1:57
So great stories woven into what he has to share as well.
2:00
So let's dive in and have a listen.
2:03
Clenton really wonderful to welcome you to the podcast.
2:07
Thanks so much for, , sharing the time with us.
2:09
It's it's great to see you.
2:11
No, really honoured, , for the invitation.
2:15
, I'm not used to, , , talking on, , on podcasts.
2:19
So it was a great opportunity.
2:21
So I thank you for, , the invitation.
2:24
I hope you don't regret it.
2:27
I'm sure we won't.
2:28
And, , Clenton, you know, you You guys have been doing such fascinating work with Social Care Future, which I
2:34
I know you're a, , a key member of and you've been celebrating your fifth birthday just in the last couple of weeks.
2:40
Congratulations.
2:41
How does it feel to have got social care future to five years I?
2:45
I think it's a a marvellous, , feat, , to try and, , tell a different story.
2:53
But also, , to talk about how we use people power to enable the, , to tell a different story.
3:02
Because, , often, , when we talk about social care, the the main story crisis narrative story.
3:12
So, , it's about, we never talk about, , social care about glorious ordinary lives and what that means.
3:22
And, and that's what me and many other people wanna do, have a glorious ordinary life.
3:29
That's, , that's it's It is really refreshing to hear that language.
3:33
And one of one of the things I notice about the the work of Social Care Future is that the vision that you guys have shared?
3:41
, it it doesn't seem to be challenged, so it it seems like there's a real consensus that, broadly, people do sign up that this would be attractive.
3:51
I guess the challenge is you know, is it realistic or
3:54
How do we actually make it happen?
3:56
Five years in
3:57
What do you think is the next challenge for making this vision a reality?
4:03
, there's quite a few moving parts to it for, , for me, , in the sector.
4:12
Yes, there is, , , an agreement on the, , , the story that we're trying to tell.
4:19
But we can sometimes be in our own bubble if that makes , sense for me.
4:27
We need to go out to, , , people and where they're at because, , you know, it's great inviting people to come to us, but we now have to ta take the story to people to understand what's, , social care if you, most people in the public don't really understand the term social care.
4:50
Most people think it's about Children.
4:53
You know, , social workers coming in and snatching Children of parents Or it's all about older people.
5:01
Yeah, absolutely.
5:02
And and I think there's a similar challenge with with the word carer that we come up with all the time.
5:08
People have a very fixed sense of what a carer is.
5:10
E, Even if they've they've got pa past the The idea of the difference between a care worker and an unpaid carer so often carer means dealing with pers, , with a person's, , intimate needs.
5:23
, and actually, a lot of us in a caring role might not be helping with that specifically, but but have a very significant contribution.
5:30
I.
5:30
I wondered, what role do you see, or what place do you think carers have in the social care future vision?
5:38
I think that, , everyone has a, , a massive part to play and the analogy that when I talk about, , care and, , , you know, from carers perspective and unpaid carers is I am a person who draws on care and support.
5:56
So I have, , my own, , personal assistants, a team personal assistants that enable me to have a life.
6:06
But, , my late father I was an unpaid carer for my late father who died of, , , prostate cancer.
6:16
And also, I'm an unpaid carer for my mum, who has, , CCOPD and Parkinson's.
6:24
So And the issue for me is we often see caring, , you know, , either as a person who draws on care or carer or unpaid carer as binary.
6:39
But I embody all of that.
6:43
So, you know, those siloed thinking doesn't really help us.
6:47
So it's about trying to unpick that and understand we have multiple identities when we're talking about caring, , that's it's so important, isn't it?
6:58
And and I think one of the the the really interesting conversations that we have with, you know, many people in our audience, , for this podcast who are commissioners, directors of social care, , carers leads is is breaking out of that that, , understanding of carers are a specific group of people and thinking more that we're all in that position.
7:22
And tomorrow, , we could suddenly be in receipt of needing, , care.
7:28
or, , we'll be, , in a caring role as well, and, , and in a sense, having the language of a carer and identifying that is is is quite unhelpful because it suggests that there's a There's a different group of people as well.
7:43
I, I wonder Clenton, One of the one of the projects that I, , first, , came across your work through was the Archbishops’ commission on reimagining care.
7:55
And I think it's so important that that word reimagining is in there.
7:59
Ca Can you say a little bit about your experience of that commission and and the process of, , the the quite difficult process of reimagining what might be possible?
8:09
, yeah, that, , thanks for that question.
8:13
, James, from my point of, , , view being a, , a member on the commission was, , looking at social care fall from a different perspective.
8:25
, and, , the word love came up.
8:31
, and, , if we think about, , the word love, it's not often associated with, , adult social care.
8:40
And, , but love for me and many others.
8:45
Who, when we were on the listening events and listening to, , carers and unpaid carers and people who draw on care and support.
8:54
And in Social Care Futures, we include the term person who draws on care and support to include carers and unpaid carers.
9:05
But, , but love forms the foundation, , for empathy, compassion, , and support.
9:13
And I think, , loving social care is like, , a glue that holds, , a mosaic together and each individual unique, , needs emotions and experiences are varied pieces of the mosaic.
9:35
And, , and love acts as the bonding, , force that unites, to and creates that beautiful meaning of a whole person, you know?
9:46
And we sometimes well, you know, it got It's get lost.
9:50
It gets lost in that everyday demand and crisis narrative.
9:56
And we forget that at the centre of all of it is people and connections that Isn't it interesting that you you used the word joy earlier?
10:07
, there's the word love coming up there.
10:11
It there's they're not the words that we hear in discussions about public service reform, and and I always think it's really interesting.
10:18
, when when we say you know how, how do we fix social care?
10:23
We dive straight into funding entitlements.
10:27
All of the the various different questions.
10:29
, but actually, when when we speak to, , the community, , of carers.
10:35
, Mobilise we're talking a different a different language.
10:39
, which is just the sort of the realities of life.
10:42
And sometimes that can be really, really tough.
10:45
Sometimes it can be, , absurd.
10:48
I often talk about you.
10:50
You know, you're a carer when you start talking about bodily fluids at the dinner table much more regularly than anyone else.
10:57
, and and actually it it's wonderful to to be able to capture that.
11:02
Now, , Clenton.
11:03
I know something that you're really passionate about is the concept of co production.
11:07
, so just kind of, , bridging that That gap between the concept of a gloriously ordinary life and where that comes into contact with public services, how they're delivered, , how they're envisioned.
11:22
Can you tell us a little bit about what co production means for you?
11:28
, OK, let me, when I talk about co production for me, I use the analogy.
11:36
.
11:37
Co production is, , co production is a long term relationship.
11:42
It's not a one night stand now.
11:45
, For when we talk about, , co production and it and how it can contribute to, , say commissioning of services, , for me in several ways.
11:58
, and some of the examples are for me.
12:01
, it can, , simulate innovation as, , , people who draw on care and support and carers and I paid carers their perspectives and and U unique insights and ideas How we coalesce around that, but also it, when covid option is done really well, it addresses social, , inequalities by involving the most marginalised, , people and often that are carers and unpaid carers, but also disadvantaged communities.
12:37
And we also, , forget.
12:39
Sometimes we, it's allowing for user led organisations or charities and, to, , from their perspective to enable, , a more personalised, , response and responsiveness to, , real life situations that we, , have and for me the fundamental things that I often talk about these principles of, , co production.
13:11
There's three for me, and often we forget, , and the first one for me is as human beings, we're naturally different and diverse.
13:22
But we tried to put everyone as a one size fits all the second, , element or principle for, , for me is as human beings, we are curious.
13:36
We are curious.
13:37
So how do we, , try and use that in co production and the third, , , principle for, , for me is if you think, , our mind, the human mind is inherently, , creative.
13:55
So how do we unleash that in co production?
13:59
That's what, , means to me, , personally, you know, So it's involving people to shape from their individual and collective, , you know, perspective.
14:14
Because we have to look at not just we have to I call it a blended approach of individual perspective and systematic perspective.
14:24
You know, if, , sometimes we don't see and hold that in our minds, we have to have a blended approach to the individual perspective of your everyday reality.
14:35
But there is some inherent and embedded , structural.
14:41
, you know, inequalities in care and support as we know it.
14:47
, it's really interesting.
14:49
I I'm just I'm just putting myself in the shoes of a, , commissioner or carers lead.
14:56
I'm coming up to review the the the specification for my, , carers service.
15:02
, and I've got buy in from the senior team who, you know, let let let's apply co production to this.
15:11
You You're saying that this has to be a long term relationship, not a one night stand.
15:16
So I maybe I'm now regretting that I didn't start having these conversations 23 years ago.
15:22
Cos I need I need them to come now.
15:24
Does that mean I?
15:25
I just have to give up.
15:26
I you know, it.
15:27
It's not gonna work.
15:28
What?
15:28
What would be What would be a helpful first step to start that conversation happening?
15:34
Well, the first step for me Recognise the here and there we are where we are, so we can, , , change the direction of travel from where we are now.
15:45
We can also, , for me as commissioners choose key areas where co co production can have the most impact.
15:55
So, , think about that.
15:57
But also involving, , people with lived experience and people with learned experience, you know, And, , remember I said we kind of, , silo, , people to, , them and us.
16:14
What?
16:15
We co production is supposed to be delivering is the wider US.
16:21
But we've gone into the vein us and how we set up activities for co production.
16:27
Oh, we need, you know, some, , people with carers and unpaid carers.
16:33
Yes, we do.
16:34
But that can be held in one person, you know, But we need to make sure we get as many diverse views and voices, but also, , the issue sometimes with co production.
16:51
, there's a phrase that I think is quite disrespectful for co production and and the phrase is the usual suspects.
17:00
I rather reframe that language and say central voices cos it's central voices, but what we need to do is widen it to get and capture the most marginalised voices that are seldomly heard.
17:17
That's that's really valuable.
17:18
I can I can just imagine people scribbling that down now as a as a key thing.
17:21
So I'm I'm pulling together, , a little Coro co production group to have a think about a specific commissioning exercise that's coming up.
17:30
, not dismissing people who you might have heard from many times before.
17:36
They will probably know the sector.
17:38
Know the , the they know their way around the council.
17:42
, better than many others will So really valuable to have that there.
17:46
And how can we supplement that with some of the other voices that that we're not hearing Really interesting I.
17:51
I also really like your your use of the phrase curious because, so often it it M It may be, , tempting to, , to go down this route, but having a reasonably good idea of what you want to come out of it.
18:08
And actually to embrace that curiosity and let the conversation go wherever it it naturally flows can be initially quite terrifying cos you sort of give up a little bit of control.
18:20
But but actually it can unlock some some really valuable elements in there.
18:26
As as well, so Clenton I.
18:28
I wonder if if I am a commissioner at that, that terrifying moment where I can either go down the co production route L give up a little bit of control, introduce a bit of risk, , and introduce some complexity, or I can take the safe bet and just do it the way we've always done it.
18:50
, surely the latter feels like an an easier route to go down at that moment.
18:59
One of the things he, we often go for what we perceive as human beings and individuals.
19:09
The the most, , the least path of resistance.
19:14
So we will.
19:16
And And that gives us that safety blanket.
19:19
But with co co, , coping option for me if you think about humans of being curious and using curiosity and creativity, which lends itself to me naturally in the space of innovation.
19:39
So if we enable that to happen, create the foundation and some of the foundation for me is, I call it, , the housekeeping, the housekeeping of co production.
19:55
Some of the housekeeping is, , what's in sight of, , that we can influence.
20:02
, in the in the decision making, often that's not clear.
20:07
And often we make things , we, the absence of trust, , it's really important in co production, we have to have trust.
20:21
And, , for me, trust I use the analogy of trust is like a an orchid.
20:27
And if you remember, an orchid is very delicate, so you have to nurture it to make, , for an orchid to to to to flourish.
20:36
We don't do any of that in co production.
20:39
So and remember, co production is about relationships, you know?
20:44
So we have to nurture those relationships to unleash our creativity.
20:50
Our curiosity, you've done it yourselves in Mobilise to look at innovation, you know?
20:58
And it's about creating that environment where you know, the conditions can happen.
21:07
And we don't do that.
21:08
, Very well, we make coconut a transactional, , element.
21:15
It's funny.
21:15
My my co-founder Suzanne in a previous episode was talking about, if we're inviting people in to offer some input in a co production process, thinking carefully about the biscuits that you're offering for refreshment matters.
21:33
So if these are the cheapest biscuits that you can get at Tesco, that says something about how you value the relationship with the person coming in and that's actually a just a a small example of of contributing to building a relationship of of trust similarly, you know, understanding that, , , you've got to arrange sessions in quite a flexible way because a carer may need to dash off at any moment, , and and schedules may be changing that it It's sort of understanding that this is a relationship rather than, , an institutional, , kind of operation.
22:09
, I wonder Clenton, , you you mentioned that that piece about, , creativity in co production as well.
22:18
Realistically, though, W we've got to work with within some frameworks of what things are gonna look like.
22:25
So, I I in the example of a carers carer support service, it's probably going to look something like what has gone before.
22:33
, D does it, , H how how could we be really radical in our creativity on some things, , to to me, , human beings and, , as us as people who draw on care and support and carers were often coming up with everyday creativity to enable us to live, you know, being able to, you know, to think about, , you know, you a classic for, , for me was, I constantly, if someone well wasn't in the house with me, , and someone rang the doorbell.
23:15
I couldn't know who it was.
23:17
So it was kind of we were shouting through the door saying, Who is it?
23:21
Who you know.
23:22
So, you know, anyone could have told me anything.
23:25
So, , you know, a friend enabled me with, , you know, to use the ring doorbell with, , , Alexa to do the doorbell do, , the lights with a switch to the curtains.
23:42
Innovation.
23:43
I'm you know, was you know, the things that can be done in everyday technology is unbelievable.
23:54
And that's creative.
23:55
And and people talking and adapting what's already there, Does that make, , that's what creativity.
24:02
And I hear, , constantly from people how they've adapted, , explored.
24:09
And, you know, , things that are already there to enable them to have a life.
24:15
But we we need to capture those stories that enable, the, IC, you know, , promising stories out there, you know, and we don't capture that.
24:30
, Well, and that's why for me, I'm really excited.
24:35
, And passionate about co production, if it's done really well, understanding that, you use the analogy about tea biscuits what comes?
24:46
, we use the analogy of Hobnobs.
24:49
You know, if you're really, , , important, they'll get the chocolate Hubnobs.
24:53
Hey, you know, , but, , that has an issue around power dynamics.
25:00
And that's where the housekeeping for me is.
25:03
What other rewards and recognition for people who are involved in co production because professionals are there and they're getting paid and when.
25:14
But people who draw on carers for carers and unpaid carers aren't, and that's a massive power.
25:22
She she How do the people who are part of co get recognition If, if they're struggling for reward and being paid, how do they get recognition for, you know, , what they've contributed cos that gives self esteem self worth All of that, that's the human, , , elements that we don't do too well in, , co production.
25:48
And are there any great examples of that kind of reward that?
25:52
So you know, quite often we see £10 vouchers for coming along to a session or whatever it might be.
25:57
, are are there any ways of rewarding people that you feel really embody that?
26:02
That sense of respect?
26:04
I'm seeing more, , more and more.
26:06
, , councils.
26:08
, creating, , , reward and recognition policies that will, , flexible to look at, , if people are on benefits, you know, , or, you know, to recognise that dynamic, but to reward them, , And recognition in different ways.
26:28
Others who, , are, you know, have the benefits system who get paid because, and I know more and more local authorities are creating , , lived experience roles.
26:45
And, , and creating paid jobs.
26:48
, for, , co production leads with lived experience in this, whether that's, , carers and or unpaid carers or people who draw on care and support.
26:58
So it is, , some really innovative work around cover.
27:04
You know, I would say, , Hammersmith and Fulham.
27:08
You know, , that are doing some really interesting, , work at a systematic and operational and service level, , about co production, cos sometimes we we don't do co production in those three levels.
27:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:25
Really interesting.
27:26
And so so, particularly for directors of adult social care in the audience here, that's your opportunity to to create a culture across the organisation where this is really embedded.
27:36
You're you're making a statement about prioritisation there.
27:39
but but can, of course, still be done.
27:41
If if you're if you're in, , in a particular team, looking at unpaid carers, for example, you there are still things that you can do which will make a difference.
27:50
And, , Clenton My My last question, I guess, is really, , in your experience, , you know, more generally in terms of making things happen, getting innovation or getting new ways of thinking and getting that diverse, curious creativity going, , when it comes to social care, what are the key steps that you would take to to block through whatever resistance might come come way to to get something really exciting happening?
28:18
I'm for me.
28:20
That's a really good question.
28:22
It's a big question.
28:23
, well, I'm not I'm not just giving you the easy ones.
28:26
Clenton, , for me, is that at the moment there's quite a a lot of rhetoric in this space.
28:36
, and what I mean, , , by that there is, , good intentions, but no, not real.
28:44
No real change.
28:46
And, , for for me, we need to crucially think about turning the dial from not just not just raising awareness about this, , situation but to making change happen, I think a few way, , you know, a few ways we can do this.
29:06
, one is, , establish mechanisms for how does accountability and oversight , to meet the goals and objectives set out in, , the reform.
29:23
And And I call the reform about social care futures.
29:27
You know, everyone in, , every DA a in England has signed up to, , social care futures.
29:37
But also, there is a document that, , I've asked your listeners to, , be aware of it's called the, the Adas.
29:46
Time to act.
29:48
It's their road map.
29:50
And it's looking at, , some objectives that need to look at, you know, technologies in there.
29:57
, innovation, prevention.
30:01
There are ways of all of that has to be co-produced.
30:06
But also there needs mechanisms for accountability within that and, , oversight.
30:13
So that's why I say co production.
30:15
It's a strategic operational and service.
30:19
, delivery.
30:20
It needs people, especially carers, unpaid carers and people who draw on care and support involved in those decision making now, But also, , for me, it's about, , maintaining, , open an ongoing dialogue and I use the word dialogue because sometimes it can feel like a debate.
30:44
You know, it's a dialogue, you know, , with people with lived experience and learned experience.
30:51
And the other one, and this speaks to, , the long term relationship that I'm, I talked about making a space for the big conversation that challenges the way things are done.
31:07
You know, , and, , that's the space.
31:11
And the analogy I would, , use for that is, , , when you take, , a a say 1000 piece Jigsaw, , my my wife loves jigsaws.
31:24
And that 1000 piece or 5000 piece jigsaws.
31:28
I'm not I I'm horrified, You know?
31:30
I can't hold it in my head what she's doing.
31:34
What?
31:34
The table's full of pieces, and I'm too scared, just in case I knock one of those pieces off and she can't complete it, But if you think about it, , when my wife talked about it when you take a 1000 piece jigsaw out of the box, it can be overwhelming, but you need to keep the bigger picture in mind.
31:57
That's what she, she she tells me while not losing the pieces, and the big picture for me in co production is how do we enable people to flourish to get a glorious ordinary life?
32:12
Think of it about, you know, , it could be 15,000 piece jigsaw, th th that.
32:19
That's really interesting.
32:20
Clenton.
32:21
Thank you so much.
32:22
And and I think it brings us back to where we start, which is, , that envisioning of a gloriously ordinary life, , that some of the things that we're looking to achieve, , are really quite simple holding on to, , that diversity, curiosity and creativity of co production getting people involved not as a debate, but as a dialogue at a strategic operational and service delivery level.
32:48
And then we can have that confidence that we're not gonna knock over a piece of the jigsaw that yes, it's complex.
32:55
But but, , we can we can go piece by piece to build up that exciting picture.
33:02
Clenton Thanks so much for your time and for sharing, , the not only, , the experience and wisdom that you have there, but also the effervescent joy of, , building a new vision for social care.
33:13
It's really great to speak to you.
33:14
Thank you.
33:15
Now, thank you for the invitation.
33:17
And I I I've enjoyed our conversation.
33:20
I was a bit worried, but I've enjoyed it.
33:22
Amazing.
33:23
It's been great to have you with us.
33:25
Thank you.
33:26
So there we have it.
33:27
What a fantastic discussion with Clenton.
33:30
Lots of really great themes coming out there.
33:33
, particularly really struck at the beginning when he talks about, you know, we need to step outside of our own bubble, , when we're looking at things.
33:41
And so it brought co production to much more of a real thing rather than just a word that people throw around.
33:46
You can really see how he's doing it.
33:48
What's your thoughts on On what he had to say?
33:51
Well, there was something really important there.
33:53
I mean it.
33:54
It links into the conversation that you had with Emily Kenway about, , co-production and and what Clenton said that really struck me was how we're all in the room for that.
34:05
So it can be tempting to look at co production as let's get some carers in and facilitate them having a conversation about it, but actually it he really underlined the importance that as commissioners or , providers in social care, there is some expertise there as well.
34:23
And co-production doesn't mean that we just sort of chuck out all of that professional expertise.
34:28
It's about really having that conversation and and and even the phrase having that conversation comes up in the interview there.
34:34
, quite a lot.
34:35
And I I wonder whether we, , talk about that enough that there is a lot of expertise in the in the professional side of the social care sector that that brings so much to the co production conversation.
34:47
That's really true, actually, to be able to pull those two things together.
34:51
, you know, you've gotta make be doing that work together, haven't you?
34:54
And I love how, , Clenton talks about human beings.
34:58
He reminds us all that we're all humans in what we're doing here.
35:01
And he talks about us being curious and really leaning in to hear from other people about how creative we can be and yet stepping out of what's already there.
35:12
, how did you take all of that?
35:15
Well, I'm I'm sure that will resonate.
35:17
, it will probably resonate as a challenge for a lot of our listeners because, , you know, in so many of these conversations, our starting point is we need to build a specification for a carer support service that's gonna be got to be launched by March or what?
35:32
Whenever it is.
35:34
, And of course, that can completely shape our thinking.
35:37
, and actually, I guess what Clenton is encouraging us to do is yeah, sure.
35:42
We've got those deadlines that we we've got to be meeting, but actually in the conversation, being ready, being ready to be taken where the conversation goes, , and almost relaxing into it and not not seeking too much to control the outcome, , or or the direction of the conversation.
35:59
I don't think that's an easy thing to do, but but really helpful to keep in mind when we start that process of co-production.
36:06
Lovely.
36:06
Fantastic.
36:07
Some great things.
36:07
Great takeaways again.
36:09
, from another great conversation, I'm really enjoying these and just one thing to add in.
36:15
Actually, , Clenton mentions, , the ladder of co production, , developed by tap.
36:20
I think local a personal.
36:22
, that's an organisation he's part of.
36:24
So we'll include that in the show notes and, , the there's if you're interested, they've also produced some 10 top tips.
36:31
And we love a practical tip on this podcast.
36:34
, so do please go there.
36:35
We'll include the links below.
36:38
Fantastic.
36:39
So great to be sharing these resources, isn't it as well?
36:41
They've been, you know, hard worked on developed in co production and now shared so generously and fantastic to have those at our fingertips.
36:49
Thanks for joining us with Carer
36:51
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