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Released every Tuesday, the LOUNGE LIZARDS podcast helps listeners navigate the experience of finding and enjoying premium cigars (both Cuban and non-Cuban) and quality spirits. Episodes are normally around 90 minutes long and feature a variety of different topics including food, travel, life, sports and work.
The podcast features eight members: Rooster, Poobah, Gizmo, Senator, Pagoda, Chef Ricky, Grinder and Bam Bam.
This is not your typical cigar podcast. We’re a group of friends who love sharing cigars, whiskey and a good laugh.
Join us and become a card-carrying lounge lizard yourself! Email us at hello@loungelizardspod.com to join the conversation and be featured on an upcoming episode!
Welcome to the Lounge Lizards podcast presented by Fabrica five. It's so good to have you here. It's a leisure and lifestyle podcast founded on our love of premium cigars as well as whiskey travel food work and whatever else we feel like getting into. My name is Gizmo. Tonight, I'm joined by Rooster, Pagoda, chef Ricky, and Bam Bam.
Gizmo:And our plan is to smoke a cigar, drink some scotch, talk about life, and, of course, have some laughs. So take this as your two hundred and sixth official invitation to join us and become a card carrying lounge lizard. Gonna meet us here once a week. We're gonna smoke a New World cigar tonight, share our thoughts on it, and give you our formal lizard rating. We share our interview with cigars owner Vance Taylor recorded live at PCA twenty twenty five where we discuss the brand's origins, his collaborative blending process, and how he's using unique technology to connect with cigar smokers all among a variety of other things for the next two hours.
Gizmo:So sit back, get your favorite drink, light up a cigar, enjoy as we pair 12 years age, Macallan double cast selection, single malt scotch whiskey with the stoic equanimity in courage. A Robusto from The Dominican Republic on the pod tonight, and it's the stoic, the equanimity in courage, 50 ring gauge cigar by five inches long. Talk about anticipation, Ben.
Bam Bam:Can't wait to smoke this cigar.
Gizmo:I am so excited to smoke this. I've heard some great things about it. And obviously there's a lot of hype about stoic and we had a great experience on that
Bam Bam:Oh, yeah.
Gizmo:Blind smoke episode quite some time ago and we are back with the new line from them.
Bam Bam:Fantastic. Will Quinimity. I will make a quick note here though. Yeah. The band coloring is different.
Bam Bam:Correct?
Gizmo:Yes, yes. It is a new band for the new one.
Bam Bam:It's a gorgeous, it's probably one of the most beautiful cigar bands I have ever seen.
Gizmo:I love if you twist the cigar, the curvature of the bands together. It's very classy.
Bam Bam:That profile follows on an angle up and then comes back down. It's really elegant. The coloring is gorgeous. Trimmed in gold, two tone blue, and a touch darker than the original band. Beautiful.
Gizmo:And it's very classy. If you touch it, the words and the logo are raised.
Bam Bam:Yeah, so it's embossed or debossed and honestly, the wrapper color works perfectly with this blue band. It is just the presentation's fantastic. It looks great.
Gizmo:I think if you were to walk into a retail shop and see this You'd be drawn to it. I mean, this is an eye catcher.
Bam Bam:Sorry. Is gorgeous. Gorgeous.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. Let's cut this thing. See what we're getting on the cold draw and the wrapper tonight. The wrapper smells really nice.
Chef:It smells delicious. Lots of barnyard and mustiness for me here. Really complex.
Bam Bam:I'm getting a mix between like potpourri.
Rooster:A lot
Gizmo:of barnyard for me.
Bam Bam:And it's actually a lot of potpourri and maybe a touch of barnyard. It's very aromatic.
Gizmo:I'm definitely getting barnyard on the foot.
Chef:Not on the wrapper.
Gizmo:Yeah. The foot is very barnyard.
Pagoda:And there were many who take the cold draw.
Bam Bam:The cold draw.
Pagoda:It's very barnyard ish.
Gizmo:How's your draw, guys?
Bam Bam:Tight.
Gizmo:Mine is it's got that kind of almost Cuban level of resistance, but that it's pleasant. It's not too much for me.
Bam Bam:You're you're not getting any berry?
Gizmo:I'm getting some sweetness.
Bam Bam:I've been getting a lot of berry recently. Maybe it's me.
Pagoda:No. No. There is some sweetness. There's some
Chef:I'm getting some currant and raspberry.
Bam Bam:That's what I'm getting.
Rooster:I'm getting it.
Bam Bam:Oh, let's light this.
Gizmo:I'm excited, boys. Let's light this thing. The stoic equanimity in courage.
Pagoda:Yeah. Why don't they come up with a more easier name here?
Gizmo:The new line from Vance Taylor and Klaus Kellner that we had on the podcast a few weeks ago, interview we did with him on at PCA. And tonight, in the second third, we're gonna share our interview with Vance Taylor, the founder
Pagoda:time to like her, that.
Gizmo:Stoic, our interview with him from PCA. And that's gonna wrap up our PCA interviews from this year's trade show, and then we'll be back there in April to do it all again.
Bam Bam:Short but sweet. What are you guys getting? Wow. That's fantastic on the light. It's incredibly delicious.
Gizmo:And and just on the light, it's very different than the first line from stoic, just called stoic
Bam Bam:Yeah.
Gizmo:In courage, which we smoked. It's a very different cigar.
Bam Bam:It's more I'm getting more cocoa and coffee in this cigar than I got in that one. And remember that hint of lemon or whatever that was? That's not existing here.
Gizmo:And unlike the first stoic we did, this does taste like a Dominican cigar to me.
Pagoda:Yeah. Because that was very Cuban ist from the
Gizmo:Red Correct. We thought, because it was blind, we thought it was Honduran. I'm not getting that here. But that being absent is not a problem for me. Like, this is
Bam Bam:Delicious. Really nice on the light. What's the blend on? What do we got?
Gizmo:So the blend on this uses an Ecuadorian Corojo wrapper with a Dominican Criollo 98 binder and fillers from The Dominican Republic, Ecuador, and an undisclosed South American country.
Bam Bam:Another secret. And The US. And The US.
Gizmo:And The US.
Bam Bam:Is that the Newark blend?
Gizmo:Patterson blend.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:And this cigar retails boys between $12 and $13 Okay?
Chef:All this flavor for $12 to $13 That's a great price.
Gizmo:I got to say the construction on mine, it's densely packed, the draw is perfectly firm, it feels significant in the hand, and a ton of smoke output.
Bam Bam:I think this is a heavily packed cigar. For the price that you're getting, it's still smoking very smooth. Mhmm.
Pagoda:Great draw. Yeah. You know, I I would I would have preferred the draw to be slightly more open, but, you know, it's a bit
Chef:snug for me. I have a great draw on mine, but I did a v cut. Okay. I'm surprised no one's really finding more of a Cuban esque flavor profile here.
Gizmo:Not for me. Maybe it's because the body for me is pushing medium.
Chef:It's definitely leaning medium plus here for sure. But there I've there's some nuance and some depth of flavor that it this cigar is really blowing me away with. It's very full, very round in flavor, not strength, but very full in flavor. Very, very, very well done so far.
Gizmo:So if you guys were to peel back that onion, right, you're saying the complexity of flavor, the mashup of all these flavors. Start throwing notes out. What are you tasting there that you're feeling the way you are?
Chef:I'm getting a good amount of fruit, some maple, a very not a citrus, but there's a brightness to a raspberry or currant that's some form of acidity. But then towards the end there, it starts finishing more masculine where it's leaning a little cocoa, coffee, maybe a hint of leather. Leather for sure. Like there's a lot happening here.
Bam Bam:Leather, deep coffee for Maybe
Rooster:little pepper too.
Bam Bam:Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I'm not getting the pepper.
Gizmo:I am getting I'm not getting spice. I'm getting
Bam Bam:a raisin prune type thing on the back end for me, and then the front that's coffee and leather.
Gizmo:In the retrohale, I feel like I'm getting a touch of citrus, leather, and a little bit of either cocoa or espresso.
Rooster:It's definitely a fuller cigar than the stoic line.
Bam Bam:The citrus on the retrohale is spot on. That is spot on.
Chef:I just got a real big punch of it, almost like citrus
Bam Bam:zest. It's unusual.
Gizmo:It's like a zest.
Bam Bam:That's exactly right. Very unusual.
Gizmo:This is fantastic. Holy
Bam Bam:shit. This is incredible. Now how long have you had these?
Gizmo:I've had these on hand. I would say now, Bam, probably about five weeks.
Bam Bam:In the tower.
Gizmo:In the tower, and then I dry boxed
Bam Bam:for about seven days. 52 pack Bohubita in that box?
Gizmo:No. No. Probably closer to like 58.
Bam Bam:Okay. Yeah. 58. Nice. They feel great.
Gizmo:Normally, I mean, my tower kinda sits at where I would have these in the tower, like 63.
Bam Bam:Mhmm.
Gizmo:But I just wanted to dry box them a little bit because they had just come in.
Bam Bam:I think they feel fantastic.
Gizmo:Yeah, they do. And they're smoking great. Yeah. Combustion's great.
Bam Bam:Ash is bright white. Nice sharp line.
Gizmo:So the equanimity line was launched at PCA twenty twenty five, and it started shipping in the September. So only a few weeks ago, this cigar started shipping. And I immediately as soon as I knew they were shipping, I hit up Matt Morris at Summit Cigars, who is where we got the first cigars from via Henry, and that's how I got these cigars. So shout out to Matt. And, like I said, you know, we're gonna have Vance come on.
Gizmo:Our interview from April, he's gonna come in in the second, third here, talk about his story. I was really impressed with him, so I Such can't wait to share a great guy.
Bam Bam:Really easy to talk to.
Rooster:Yeah. Guess the stoic was launched at Matt Morris's
Gizmo:was the first retailer.
Rooster:Brick and mortar store.
Gizmo:That's correct. Summit cigars.
Rooster:Is that where they did this line as well?
Gizmo:I believe so. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about equanimity for a second. I'll read some stuff here that I found online from Vance.
Gizmo:He says, equanimity has been a labor of love and in development for over a year, which you'll also hear in our interview. Said Vance Taylor, founder of Stoic, achieving equanimity is the ultimate ambition of stoic practice. So it was imperative that we invest the time, energy, and resources to ensure this blend not only impresses new levels of intensity and complexity upon our customers, reflecting the natural challenges of life, but that it maintains a delicate and harmonious balance throughout. Smoking equanimity should remind our customers that while life can be difficult when we practice acceptance of the things we can't control and balance our emotions, we can live peacefully. You know, this room really needed that message tonight.
Senator:It so
Bam Bam:sure did. You fucking better believe it.
Chef:I have no idea.
Bam Bam:I think we've needed that for a while. I don't know.
Pagoda:I thought everybody here was emotionless.
Bam Bam:Very appropriate.
Pagoda:Very stoic.
Gizmo:Very stoic.
Bam Bam:Oh, I don't think so.
Gizmo:So this line of cigars, the equanimity line, also comes in three other sizes. So let me go through all four now. The courage is the Robusto. We have that in our hand, 50 ring gauge by five. The wisdom is the Churchill, 48 ring gauge by seven inches long.
Gizmo:Justice, the Toro, 52 ring gauge by six. And finally, the moderation, which is the corona, 46 by five and a half.
Bam Bam:One thing I'll say about this line that we weren't getting on his other the previous line that we had, this is a richer experience.
Gizmo:I agree.
Bam Bam:It's a deeper, fuller
Rooster:It's definitely fuller.
Bam Bam:Yeah. I'm not it's it's full flavored, but from the point of view of the body, it's still firmly medium, but it's a richer experience. It seems deeper.
Rooster:It does.
Gizmo:It seems thicker. The smoke seems thicker
Bam Bam:It's more velvety and there's more viscosity to me. You mean for the point
Rooster:of viscosity.
Chef:It's medium.
Bam Bam:The body is full. I think the flavor is really full flavored. I think the smoke is there's some viscosity to the smoke and it lingers. It doesn't dissipate quickly.
Rooster:Like we said earlier, the stoic line, the original line, kind of like we thought it was Honduran tobaccos. And this, like you said, it feels more Dominican.
Pagoda:Gizmo's got
Bam Bam:a bewildered look on his face.
Gizmo:I just got hit with an incredible blast of sweetness.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Wow. So we're at your point now, so we're gonna get there soon. I'm getting banana and fruit and cream right now.
Rooster:Wow. Banana pudding.
Bam Bam:Not really.
Pagoda:Yeah. That sounds nice.
Chef:Sounds like a delicious banana trifle of some kind area.
Pagoda:Don't need to go to Magnolia anymore.
Gizmo:I do love Magnolia's bread pudding, or banana pudding, by the way.
Bam Bam:Oh, their cupcakes are awesome. Yeah. This is impressive cigar. There's no doubt about it. $15.
Chef:12. 13. 12. 13.
Gizmo:12. 13. We have a lot to get to tonight, boys. Let's start with a news couple news stories. Start first, some things changing for Drew Estate and Hoya to Nicaragua.
Gizmo:Now we talked a few weeks ago about the Merupfels and the Fuentes separating, changing their distribution agreement. Of course, then it trickled down even more importantly, I think for us as consumers with the discontinuation of their relationship as it relates to Cameroon tobacco. The international distribution relationship, I think what we're seeing is a lot of folks are trying to eliminate how many hands are in the pot of their business. Right? We've seen Habanos do that pushing out distributors trying to get more of a piece of that pie.
Gizmo:We're seeing that with Fuente of course going in house for their own distribution. And now, Drew Estate and Hoya de Nicaragua have ended their US distribution agreement. So since early two thousand eight, these two companies have worked together as part of a deal that sees Drew Estate distribute Hoya de Nicaragua's products in The US. Wow. That ends December 31.
Gizmo:So Doctor. Alejandro Martinez Cuenca says, This transition is not the end of a relationship. It's the natural evolution of one. We are standing on the shoulders of a friendship that has helped shape who we are today. Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Gizmo:I think it's another example of just trying to cut, you know, it's almost like having an outside sales team and pulling it in house, getting rid of all those expenses, and they're going now to their own US distribution for themselves.
Bam Bam:Here's a question. Usually when two companies share a distribution service, they're splitting costs and fees and so on. I would think that was the case when they were together. So now that they're splitting and handling it in house, usually, as a company owner, I know that typically costs me more. It's usually a bit more expensive because you're paying your staff.
Gizmo:Well, I'm wondering
Bam Bam:if You they already have may have to hire staff just to handle the distribution.
Gizmo:I'm wondering if they already have enough folks in the office that either can handle this or, you know, add a couple folks here that can handle this. Because if you look at Padron I mean, let's talk Padron. Padron obviously, Drew Estate's massive. Padron is, you know, obviously one of the icons of the industry. Padrone does everything in their office out of Miami.
Gizmo:There's no call center.
Bam Bam:Oh, their kids do it.
Gizmo:Well, no. It's the family. It's all the But every single time you call Padrone, a human being picks up the phone. There's no automation. None of that.
Gizmo:So if Padron's able to do it, I feel like Hoyota and Nicaragua can find a system to create an in house team and eliminate what I would think is a big piece of their business being taken by Drew Estate.
Rooster:Well, think Padron just sells by itself. They don't need to market the product.
Bam Bam:They don't have salespeople.
Rooster:Yeah, people know already. They love their cigars. They don't really come out with a lot of new stuff and it just sells. It just moves. I mean, back ordered, I'm sure.
Bam Bam:Not the case for other brands. So they need this distribution
Gizmo:So Jonathan Drew says, Hoyota Nicaragua has played a meaningful role in my life since 1998, far earlier than the beginning of our distribution arrangement seventeen years ago, When the entire Drew Estate factory was a mere homegrown group of just six of us in Esteli Central, we looked up to Hoyt in Nicaragua as a bright light of conviction, principle, and individuality. It's a nice quote. Most notably, their dedication to honoring their staff, Nicaraguan brothers and sisters who so loyally stand behind the brand and stand side by side with our dear friend, Doctor. Alejandro. It was as easy to fall in love with the Hoya family as it was to fall in love with Nicaragua itself.
Gizmo:Complex, beautiful, mysterious, and serious. The admiration that each of us at True Estate feel for the Martinez and our Hoya family is extraordinary and will never change. So it's nice to see that they're they're they're divorcing and, you know
Bam Bam:I don't think Jonathan wrote that. I'm sorry. Ain't gonna happen. It's very nice but he did
Vance Taylor:write that.
Gizmo:Nice quote. So let's go to another one boys. This one was a big story. I couldn't believe when I saw this one. The cigar industry has sued the attorney general of California.
Bam Bam:Fantastic.
Gizmo:So the premium cigar association were the quarterbacks on on this. They were joined by Ashton, Aliva, Padron, Rocky Patel, Lafor Domenicana, Arturo Fuente, my father, Cigar Rights of America, and, again, the Premium Cigar Association. Fantastic. When all those folks are coming together to do something, it's serious.
Bam Bam:I'm surprised Ernesto wasn't part of that.
Gizmo:Yeah. I don't know why EP could've
Bam Bam:That's been unusual.
Gizmo:So the defendants are challenging California's new unflavored tobacco list according to Cigar Aficionado here, and the policy of having to register and verify traditional cigars as unflavored or risk having them banned for sale in the state. So I guess what's happening here is the paperwork and cost as it relates to registering every single Vitola is extraordinary and exorbitant. Correct. To the point that Dunbarton Tobacco and Trust founder Steve Sokka has said he is done selling cigars in California if this continues to go through.
Bam Bam:Yeah. I don't blame him.
Gizmo:So it's nice to see that everybody getting together and and pushing back on this. Rocky Patel, of course, we know is an attorney, very successful lobbyist, and very important to the industry as far as pushing legislation through or pushing against legislation that is, harmful to the industry. He calls it arbitrary and capricious that would amount to de facto prohibition for most cigar manufacturers and retailers. The state seeks to distinguish between flavored cigars and non flavored cigars. However, the state of California and the attorney general's office hastily set forth regulations to register our non flavored premium cigars without taking the time to study and understand our boutique industry.
Gizmo:The overreaching and egregious regulations simply punish the industry without just cause. The yearly cost of compliance is far too expensive for too many companies. Most companies would be forced to stop selling our legal cigars in the state of California or reduce our SKUs by 50%.
Bam Bam:Oh, yeah. They've gotta reduce their number of Vitolas.
Gizmo:Yeah. And, you know, it's just crushing their business.
Bam Bam:And that's a huge market,
Pagoda:I would I'm just surprised they didn't go the Canadian way, which is just cover the whole band.
Bam Bam:Problem Don't hear many ideas.
Gizmo:The thing that they're arguing is that the state of California is effectively dismissing the FDA, the the national, the federal regulations that have been set forth, and they're almost trying to create their own micro FDA that only applies to California, which when you're selling a product in The United States, you're serving all 50 states.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:And the District Of Columbia and Puerto Rico. You have a large network of varying municipalities and state regulations. That is what they're arguing here is why is California allowed to dismiss what the FDA says about tobacco products, which is completely under federal purview as far as the regulations go.
Bam Bam:I pray to God they win, and it could set a positive precedent for the cigar industry nationwide, state by state.
Gizmo:Yeah, especially for other Very states to see
Bam Bam:important for them to see.
Gizmo:That this industry is not gonna stand for these egregious, ridiculous from attorneys general and other folks in the states. And listen, think about how many retailers are in California. They get up every day, all they want to do is serve their customers, make a living, come home, be with their family. Now they got to lose sleep at night thinking that their business is going to be disrupted or destroyed.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Yeah, it's awful. It's terrible. When's this taking place? Do we know?
Gizmo:Well, I think it's coming to in the next you know, six months or a year,
Bam Bam:but So they they filed, they did file the suit, right?
Gizmo:The suit was filed at October. Oh, it
Bam Bam:could take
Gizmo:a So shout out to Cigar Aficionado for putting this together. Made it very easy for me to share that with you and our listeners tonight. So this is definitely gonna be a big story as it progresses. Hopefully, they end up with judge Mehta on this one who helped out with the other federal stuff, but, no, this is a state issue.
Rooster:So let's see what happens. Ito.
Gizmo:Ito. Judge Ito.
Chef:I am in love with this cigar.
Bam Bam:Can you see how incredibly beautiful the ash is on each cigar? It's gorgeous, man.
Rooster:So there's only one little knock though for me. The draw is a little tight.
Pagoda:Very tight. Me.
Gizmo:I'm loving it.
Chef:Like My draw is not tight at all.
Gizmo:I think if you guys try, just try pinching right above the band a little bit. Just loosen up that area at the top. Get some saliva out of there.
Bam Bam:I think
Gizmo:it's But I think
Rooster:I should maybe cut it
Gizmo:a little bit more. Go ahead.
Bam Bam:Ash it first so it's not in your lap, but this is really I'm getting like a baked good with fruit in it.
Gizmo:That's a great way to put it.
Bam Bam:That's really what this is.
Gizmo:We talked about those cookies. Cookies, Cookies,
Bam Bam:It's a scone.
Rooster:Like a currant scone. Exactly.
Pagoda:That's exactly fantastic.
Chef:I don't fully disagree with the scone. I think this has more there's there's more of a creamy butteriness to this that reminds me of those sharp those shortbread cookies with the fruit filling.
Bam Bam:I think
Chef:that's raspberry filling. And then when you were talking about that CA article, I got a little bit of a you have have like a creme cattelan or a flan that you get like this vanilla custard, but it's like very rich and and almost toasted like
Bam Bam:If I'm getting that, I'm it's very faint
Chef:for me. Yeah. Was for a short moment, but when I got it, it was so pleasant. Was so nice. This cigar is
Bam Bam:It's crazy how good this cigar is.
Gizmo:Yeah. I'm really
Bam Bam:impressed. It's crazy.
Gizmo:I'm really impressed.
Chef:I had dinner maybe an hour ago, so this is like dessert right now and it's perfect.
Bam Bam:Klaus, that mad scientist came through again.
Rooster:Yeah. I mean, there is a little sweetness that comes through also. Every
Gizmo:once in a while I'm getting hit with a blast of really wonderful sweetness.
Bam Bam:Yeah. It's more consistent for me.
Rooster:Like a maple sugar.
Gizmo:Yes. Almost like maple syrup is being dripped onto the cigar every five draws. Like just one drop of maple syrup.
Bam Bam:Big dessert guy.
Gizmo:And that's breakfast.
Bam Bam:That's correct.
Gizmo:Wow. I'm impressed.
Chef:As long as it doesn't contain honey, we're all good. Correct.
Bam Bam:So the one challenge I'm having is I'm having a hard time not going through it because it's
Gizmo:Yeah, you got to slow down.
Bam Bam:I'm ahead of all of you. I think this is
Rooster:just a delicious cigar. So, Guiz, what made you choose this particular size? Because we do a lot of Robustos?
Gizmo:Because the first stoic that we did was in the same Vitola, so from an apples to apples perspective, we really love that courage, the original one. It was a blind. So when ordering this, I wanted to just compare vitola to vitola, see how they stack up against each other, and, you know, see how they rate. But right now this one seems like a big brother to the other stoic that we smoke.
Pagoda:Because of the fuller flavor. This is called And
Gizmo:it's more rich. Encourage. Is also called courage.
Bam Bam:Also. As we often try to encourage you. Oh, encourage.
Gizmo:I missed that.
Bam Bam:Not discourage. My dear Pagoda. So is the Stoic the same price as this? Do we remember?
Gizmo:I think it's around the same price.
Bam Bam:Okay.
Chef:And you know what? Every once in a while, it goes back to that citrus zest, almost grapefruit ish. It's just so weird the way it's balancing coffee, cream, and citrus, and baked goods, and it's making it all work somehow. Need to wet my palate.
Rooster:This is also a very versatile cigar, I must say. Can smoke this in the morning.
Gizmo:Alright, I
Rooster:got the hint.
Gizmo:All right, boys, let's go to our pairing.
Bam Bam:We thirsty, man.
Gizmo:So we have an old friend or let's say the sister to an old friend in the room tonight.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:We have the 12 years age Macallan double cask selection, single malt scotch.
Bam Bam:Yes.
Gizmo:And cheers, boys. Cheers.
Pagoda:Cheers. Cheers. To
Gizmo:a great night, a great cigar, and some classic whiskey. McCallan is one of the classics.
Chef:I'm so glad that this sat here because when I first sat in my seat and took a Yeah. A a little whiff of it, I thought it it was it was a bit aggressive, but it just sat here and got opened up. It just got softer and it's beautiful. I
Bam Bam:don't mind it
Gizmo:either. No? I think that, you know, obviously if you're gonna Again, we're talking stoic to stoic. If you're talking Macallan to Macallan, this does not stack as highly the Sherry cast
Bam Bam:does. That's correct.
Gizmo:So we always talk about when we talk about 12 years age Macallan, we've always talked that there have been two products offered by Macallan. One is this one, the double cask classically has come in the blue box. And then the one that we drink, which is a little bit more expensive, same product but finished in Sherry casks.
Pagoda:Mhmm.
Gizmo:It was in the black box.
Bam Bam:And that's the one we love.
Gizmo:And now what we're finding and and when I picked this up from Total Wine, I was shocked to see that they've completely changed Correct. The branding on the Macallan bottles. And I think what we're seeing is I guess they loved what they did with the Harmony Collection and these other high end releases that they've done. Now they're pulling their classic line, the twelve, fifteen, and 18 into that same kind of branding. Yeah.
Gizmo:And they've gone now from having a very classic, easy to find in the store blue box to this kind of peppermint checkerboard.
Bam Bam:That's a good way of putting it. It's got crisscross with pink lines that kinda separate the between lines of the red, and the rest of the box looks like a dark red. It I don't mind the box, but I can't stand the label on the back of the bottle.
Gizmo:I agree. I don't understand. What are we seeing? Let's talk about this. Is this
Chef:a holiday edition or something?
Gizmo:I don't know.
Rooster:I think
Gizmo:this is the new We're looking at
Bam Bam:slices of fruit on the back of this bottle. I'm sorry for a scotch. That's unacceptable.
Gizmo:I just don't understand why you take something that is so classic, so respected. It's a legend.
Bam Bam:It takes it down a few notches for me.
Gizmo:It knocks it down to like a basic level to me.
Bam Bam:Correct. Visually.
Gizmo:It's weird. Yeah. And not that I don't like change, which I don't, but that's not my comment here. We know you don't like change. It seems like whatever they've done here is not making sense to
Pagoda:me. This might be the Christmas edition. Not. Don't think It looks like packaging.
Gizmo:Know what it looks like? It looks like it's the Where's Waldo Correct. Packaging. The Where's Waldo edition on the account.
Chef:I think this has something to do with holidays. Mean, the citrus and the citrus zest feels sort of old fashioned.
Gizmo:Chef, I bought this in September or August.
Pagoda:I Last
Chef:mean, there were already Halloween decorations in July in some places. Christmas decorations out now. I don't know. I hate the back of this bottle. Like Bam said, there's Yeah, there's there's soft.
Chef:Yeah, it's citrus and fudge. This is a chunk of fudge.
Bam Bam:Looks like an ottoman on there.
Gizmo:Red ottoman. That's the fudge. That's where they want you to sit. When you're drinking.
Rooster:So are those the notes that
Chef:you're getting? I'm guessing that they're trying to highlight the notes that you find, but I don't really find fudge in in this at all. No.
Gizmo:Well no, I do think there is like a chocolatey But I think I taste that more in the sherry cask than I do here. Agree.
Pagoda:Even these are sherry casks, but I think those, the black bottle which we like are the Spanish sherry casks from one particular place. Yeah. I, you know, I've never been a fan of the double cask.
Bam Bam:How are you feeling, too, though?
Pagoda:It's not too bad. Yeah. Yeah. I do It seems like it's a bit darker than the one that
Bam Bam:Yeah.
Pagoda:Typically have like, you know, double cask.
Bam Bam:The one merit is that it does have a very long finish.
Pagoda:Long finish.
Bam Bam:Which is nice because that's where I'm getting a lot of that dark chocolate, in the very, very tail end.
Pagoda:And it's got that little bit of the orangish, I don't know,
Bam Bam:Yeah, the like a little bit of I orange kinda get that in the front. I
Gizmo:will say I am enjoying it more than I expected to, Tony.
Bam Bam:Me too.
Gizmo:I didn't put any ice nor water in and it is drinking brilliantly.
Pagoda:It is brilliant. I think since it's opened up, like, went and got ice.
Gizmo:Yeah. As you
Pagoda:do. As they do.
Rooster:Chef Rick is sitting right next to
Pagoda:But yeah, I think it's really opened up. I think this is one of the double casts I've enjoyed more than, you know.
Gizmo:And you know what I'm wondering is, alongside a rebranding of Macallan, which by the way, I'm looking at their website, This is the new branding of this.
Bam Bam:Uh-huh. Yeah.
Gizmo:I was
Chef:looking at it too.
Gizmo:If you pull up, they're calling this, and again, I I don't really like they must have hired some some crazy, like, consultants to come in and tell them what they were doing wrong. Marketing. It's marketing. Exactly. Go ahead and say it.
Chef:It's marketing.
Gizmo:So they're calling this part of the timeless collection, the standard editions of what they do. They have a double cask and a cherry oak. The double cask are all this Where's Waldo peppermint checkered from 12, fifteen, eighteen, and up to 30. We're seeing that there. Wow.
Gizmo:So they're rebranding those. And then when you go to the sherry cask, the same thing happens. Sherry oak are solid red. Wow. So they're moving completely away from black and blue.
Gizmo:They're going all for red the what they're calling the timeless collection of the Macaoan that we've known
Bam Bam:It's a big shift.
Gizmo:And that we have been drinking. So you're not gonna see those black and blue boxes. Once they sell out at these stores, they're gonna be replaced by these dark deep red boxes for the sherry oak and for the double cast, the peppermint checkerboard that we're looking at here.
Pagoda:You know what's been interesting? I haven't seen a lot of people drink the Macallan 12. I myself have reduced a lot.
Bam Bam:Same.
Gizmo:But I think that's been a product of our habits here, don't you?
Pagoda:I also think, you know, I think after COVID when they increased prices, the sherry cask, you know, the one in the black box, that price went pretty high.
Gizmo:Went through the roof during
Pagoda:COVID. Went through the roof, and it's never come back down. Think it's starting creep the Belvernese
Gizmo:It's starting to creep down, though, because I have seen the blue box for sale at a local liquor store that had it for they had the blue box for, like, 75 or 80 during COVID, and the black box was $90.95. Now I'm seeing those same boxes not marked on sale. I think the blue box is like 65 and the black box is now kind of closer to 80.
Pagoda:80. Alright.
Gizmo:So I think they're starting to come down, you know? But I guess it depends on where you're at in the country and what gonna And
Pagoda:then Trump with his tariffs. And the tariffs.
Gizmo:So right
Pagoda:now They're not gonna help.
Gizmo:Right now on total wine, we're seeing the Macao and twelve year double cask we're drinking for $70, and we're seeing the twelve year sherry oak, $80.
Rooster:So it's come down like 10. Yeah, it's come
Gizmo:down 10 And I wonder, like you're saying, I think it probably was a bad thing for the demand of it. People stopped drinking it.
Pagoda:No, but you know, we used to get it for $60.
Bam Bam:Yeah, 68 I remember paying. Even 60.
Pagoda:Yeah. 59, and oh, in those days I think Belverny was 49 and moved up to 54. But I'm pleasantly surprised
Gizmo:to be I am able too, I'm really enjoying this. I'm wondering if there has been a little bit of a change, or if it's just, you know, we talk about runs. Yeah. If if the entire product right now is on a better run. Obviously, there's been a lot of demand for a long period of time, which is why they introduced the double the double cask.
Gizmo:As we've heard senators say before, It never existed until there was such a demand for these sherry casks around the world. They couldn't create the product that they wanted to create and store it as long as they wanted to. Well, there are sherry casks.
Bam Bam:Sherry barrels. There's just not Yeah. That have been used and aged long enough for them to give that flavor.
Gizmo:And you think about the demand surge for single malt scotch over the last twenty years, I would put it right next to what we've seen for agave. In tequila and mezcal, the hype that's gone along with that.
Bam Bam:Not in this room.
Gizmo:And bourbon
Bam Bam:too. Not in this room, but yes.
Gizmo:Not in this room. Correct. And I think also Pagoda, think our habits, especially with our love of rum and chefs bringing
Bam Bam:in Correct.
Gizmo:Tequila, you know, high end agave there, I
Bam Bam:think that's changed our habits in room. Yeah. Honestly, anyone listens to this pod, you'll know I have moved away from scotch two years ago.
Gizmo:Me
Bam Bam:too. And I haven't ever really gone back. I haven't bought a bottle. I haven't looked at a bottle. If someone offers this glass, I will drink this.
Bam Bam:I can't get enough rum or tequila.
Gizmo:You know what it is for me too, Bam? When I drink flor de cana rum, when I drink Havana seven, when I drink a clean rum like that, I can drink a pretty decent amount of it, and the next morning I wake up You feel great. I feel great. If I do that with this
Bam Bam:No. It's over.
Gizmo:You're cooked. Correct. I'm
Bam Bam:cooked. Same with the clean tequilas that we're
Gizmo:all This tequila doesn't screw me up actually.
Bam Bam:No. It doesn't either for me. No. No. No.
Bam Bam:I'm just So
Gizmo:you're saying you're saying you yeah. That's where
Bam Bam:Did you get that same botanical effect where you're not getting, you know, I'm
Gizmo:six just wondering, you know, if you guys think do you think that's related to the mash bill of this? Is it the casks? Whatever's being imparted there? I I don't know what it is about single malt scotch that sometimes it gets me.
Pagoda:I think it's a constitution of people. Like, tequila still kind of really throws me off. Really? Now that you Rum does not. Now that you're
Rooster:getting into the fall months, do you think you would reach more for scotch? Probably. Probably.
Gizmo:I probably would.
Pagoda:But I've been doing a lot of rum. Like, you know, this weekend we were all hanging out together.
Bam Bam:It was great.
Pagoda:And I think most of us were drinking rum. There was a bottle of Macallan over there. I don't think it was touched.
Bam Bam:No, honestly as it gets colder, I gravitate more toward the rum because it's so easy to drink and delicious and rich.
Rooster:Yeah, guess rums, cognacs.
Bam Bam:Oh yeah, and the armagnacs still I'm in love with. I will say about the pairing, I'm not super happy about it. I disagree with you
Pagoda:on that. I disagree.
Gizmo:I actually think that the cigar is bringing a lot out of the pairing and I think that the pairing is kind of nestling in and making the cigar pop a little for me. I'm pretty happy with it.
Bam Bam:I think for me the spirit's overwhelming the cigar just enough for me not to want to drink it because I'm enjoying the cigar so much. It's getting stronger me than when I'm smoking.
Chef:I agree with you, Bem. I think it's shifting the cigar just a little bit away from That's where I want it to exactly
Bam Bam:what's
Chef:It's shifting it slightly. It's making it a little tannic and dry when you do the scotch. Prior to the scotch, I just couldn't get enough of the cigar. So if there's one benefit is it's making me smoke the cigar a little bit slower because I'm almost waiting for the scotch to finish. It's finished.
Chef:It's a long So I can get it back into the cigar. The finish on the scotch is very long. I don't call it fudge because to me fudge is sweet, but that dark chocolate finish Yeah.
Pagoda:A joke chocolate.
Gizmo:Do you think that's being disruptive?
Chef:It's disruptive
Gizmo:for Yeah. The I agree with my opinion. Now let me ask you this. If we had the Sherry Oak version of Macallan tonight, do you think it would even be more of a disruption? Because I think that dark chocolate's even more highlighted in Sherry.
Bam Bam:No, it's not the chocolate that's the issue. There's a little bit of heat in this that's the distraction on the cigar, and there isn't enough Sherry or any at The all Sherry's sweeter. That would actually pair better with the sweetness of This the cigar
Gizmo:and help enhance the cigar just a little
Bam Bam:is I don't mind what we're drinking. I just don't like it with the cigar right now.
Chef:It's almost cleansing the cigar away.
Gizmo:Which I
Bam Bam:don't want.
Chef:I don't exactly.
Pagoda:You know, for me what's happened is I think, you know, we were talking about the scone, kind of
Bam Bam:scone Yeah, ish bakery good, yeah.
Pagoda:It's become a lot more sweeter for me in terms of more biscuit ish.
Bam Bam:The cigar.
Pagoda:No, yeah, the cigar, yes. More biscuit ish.
Bam Bam:You don't see
Pagoda:that And I I like it.
Bam Bam:Your spirit's taking away from that when you when you go back in tandem, back and forth?
Pagoda:It's a little bit. I, you know, because I don't have ice, I'm not I'm taking very small sips.
Bam Bam:Same here. Yeah.
Pagoda:Yeah. But I think I'm gonna try it with the Cuba face now.
Gizmo:So with that, boys, we're coming to the end of the first third here on the stoic equanimity in courage and the McCallan double cast 12 years age. Rooster, you're the only one we haven't heard from. What are you thinking right now?
Rooster:The cigar is very good. I think it's really well balanced. I mean, they did a great job. I think the blend is spot on. Only issue that I have is when I took the second band off, I mean, the draw was a little tight for me.
Rooster:And once it's going down almost touching the second band, a little bit of the wrapper started peeling.
Bam Bam:Really? Not for me. Hold on.
Rooster:It's a slight it's a minor knock.
Bam Bam:You got to say all that again.
Gizmo:Just roll with it. Yeah.
Rooster:It's a minor knock, but I think the flavor is spot on. I think it's really well constructed otherwise. Yeah. I mean, the ash really I
Gizmo:think like you said, ma'am, I'm really having difficulty not keeping Me too. Like, I keep reaching for the cigar.
Bam Bam:Me too.
Gizmo:I keep wanting, You want more? Even subconsciously, I'm staring at my iPad, I'm reading, we're chatting, and I'm still, like, trying to sneak in more draws because the flavor of this cigar is so damn good. That's correct. And again, I can't believe now for the third time, and I know we're only at the end of the first third, I'm shocked how successful Klas is and Vance at Stoic and the guys with Avowed that they're able to surprise us like this.
Bam Bam:Yeah, that's just incredible. Again, I said this before, I'll say it again. They are, to me, two of the, I think, most intellectual, young cigar producers in the business right now.
Chef:Based on what I'm tasting, I would agree with you.
Bam Bam:But you'll hear the interview, but the conversations are so in-depth and in detail and very targeted in what they want and how to achieve it, and they can do it.
Gizmo:And this advance came from a career in healthcare.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:Gave up like health tech or something he was in, did very well for himself and went into his passion full time.
Bam Bam:Sure.
Gizmo:And you'll hear in the interview, talks about how he connected with Klas as he was trying to find factories. He was so inspired by Kloss's approach to blending and smoking cigars. They just clicked and obviously that click is what we're tasting tonight with the fellow lizards out there have tasted in the first stoic. I mean, it's really a great partnership they've formed. There's very few people in the world I find that who kind of
Rooster:like quit their whole entire careers and then go after their passion. Correct.
Pagoda:Yeah.
Rooster:And are successful at it.
Bam Bam:That's correct.
Gizmo:You know, it's Rafael Nadal with aging room, we've heard that story.
Bam Bam:Also coming out Rocky Patel.
Gizmo:Rocky Patel, a lawyer, driving around in his car selling his cigars. I mean, it's very respectable.
Bam Bam:Door to door.
Gizmo:Yeah. And he's one of the biggest in the world now.
Bam Bam:Correct. It's incredible.
Chef:Everything about this cigar is very intentional and it's delivered intensely. Mhmm. And I admire it. And I admire those two guys for what they're delivering here. Alright,
Gizmo:boys. It's time now to go to our interview with Vance Taylor, the founder and mastermind behind Stoic cigars. We recorded this interview at PCA twenty twenty five in New Orleans. I'm really, really happy with this interview. I'm so glad we're able to share it with you.
Gizmo:You're gonna you're gonna hear Vance tell his story, why he chose the name stoic, what that means to him, and, of course, his whole journey into building stoic and what's to come. I hope you really enjoy this interview. We're excited to share it with you tonight, and we'll be back to you at the end of the second third. Alright. Live from PCA twenty twenty five.
Gizmo:We are very proud to welcome on a very special guest, Vance Taylor from Stoic Cigars. And, of course, any listener will remember the blind tasting we did on April Fools.
Bam Bam:How can anyone forget? When
Gizmo:Lizard Henrito brought in a cigar with no band, no information on it. And not only did we have a phenomenal experience rated at a 10, but we learned about stoic cigars. And Vance Taylor, the owner, blender, the all encompassing person behind Stoic Cigars, and we are very, very happy to have him on the pod with us today. Yeah.
Vance Taylor:Thank you, guys. So thanks
Gizmo:for joining us.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. My
Gizmo:pleasure. And congratulations on these awesome cigars you're making. We have really, really enjoyed them.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. I mean, the feedback's been remarkable. It's always nerve wracking to drop a bunch of cash and come to the PCA. You never know. Honestly, your podcast, I had no idea it happened because you guys did it blind, and I didn't even know you didn't even know you existed, frankly.
Vance Taylor:And I'm glad I do. And side tangent, but your podcast is amazing. Production quality, your crew, everybody here, the chemistry is very, very good. Thank you, man. So, our re sharing it is helping you drive subscribers as well.
Vance Taylor:But it was a good momentum for me coming into the show because, you know, it's I know the cigar is good as a cigar smoker objectively. Like, I feel like it's a good cigar with broad market appeal, but hearing you guys rate it blind was such a trip for me and such a treat, so I appreciate
Gizmo:Yeah. It worked out really well. I mean, that was the first time we had done a blind review in three plus years. Wow. And the timing, the coincidence, being here with you at PCA, it seems very serendipitous how it all has worked out.
Gizmo:Then, of course, how well the cigar performed. I mean, what a what a treat it's been, and we're so glad to have you on and get to know your story a little bit.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I think there's there's just there's so much, like, serendipity in life in general, but I think especially in this industry for me. And we were just talking before we we mic'd up here about how often I've been to this show and what sort of my background is with PCA, so I don't know if if that's a good time to tell the story. But so my now wife, who you met, who's manning the booth while we're while we're here, she she and I managed to get our way into the IPCPR back in 2015.
Vance Taylor:So the last time it was in New Orleans. We came. We volunteered to work the Stinky Ashtray cash and carry table. They were looking for some locals on Facebook. And I responded to the post, and I said, look.
Vance Taylor:I'm not local. But at the time, I traveled so much in my in my former life. I had a bajillion SkyMiles, and I said, look. We can be there, and we'll work the booth. My girlfriend's smoking hot.
Vance Taylor:We'll sell all your ashtrays in a day. We just wanna go to the show. And so he's like, yeah. Do it. So that's how we got to the IPCPR.
Vance Taylor:We met a bunch of of really great people here. We started to really fall in love with like, the love of the cigar expanded to the love of the industry and the love of the community and and of the people. And we started going to The Dominican Republic with somebody that we met here and going to his factory and working on blends and just kinda dorking around, going to that sort of next level. And we started to talk about someday, that sort of someday dream, we'll have our own cigar company. And so to be back now ten years later, the PCA now back in New Orleans, we're back, and we have our own booth.
Vance Taylor:And I just sorta to me, it's kismet. Like, what can happen in ten years? Like, you never really know. We were just here, two wide eyed kids in a candy shop ten years ago, walking around and and meeting people and smoking smoking great cigars. So it's really exciting for us.
Vance Taylor:The way that we met Klas Kellner, very similar. Like, I knew that I was gonna make a cigar. I had the brand. I had a rough idea of what I wanted to accomplish with the blend, not necessarily the blend itself, but we didn't know where we were gonna make it. So I booked a one way ticket to Santiago, and I set up a bunch of meetings.
Vance Taylor:And right before we left, I talked to Zane Gamble from Blind Man's Puff. And he said, hey. If you're going, you should try to meet Klas Kellner while you're there. He's he's got a factory now. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that.
Vance Taylor:I I actually had no idea. He just opened, like, earlier that year. And so I reached out to him on Instagram. He didn't get back to me right away. And then he messaged me the day before I flew out and said, well, give me a call, and let's see what you're what you're trying to do.
Vance Taylor:And we had a quick WhatsApp phone call. We really connected. I added him to my agenda. I met with five factories. So added, he was the fifth.
Vance Taylor:And as soon as we sat down in his office and we walked through, I think he did it with you guys earlier, the the blending. He taught me how to recognize more than flavor, but palatal coverage when you're blending, which is really, really important when you're trying to create balance. And I just knew that if I worked with class A, the quality would be phenomenal, and B, I would be allowed to be very hands on and very creative in the blending process. And I don't think you get that a lot anymore. If you're a new brand coming to market, you get a lot of, Here's the blends we have.
Vance Taylor:Pick the one you like. Put your name on it, and good best of luck. God bless. And I'm you know, that's not what I was here for. So those these things that just are happening, and they feel very serendipitous to me.
Gizmo:So you were telling us before that you are very involved, very hands on in person in the blending process. You're trying iteration after iteration after iteration of each of these cigars. Can you walk us through, like, what is a day in Santiago at Klas's factory? What is that like for you guys as you're tasting everything?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. It's so typically, we have some idea of some tweaks to whatever blend is in production that we wanna make before I come, and those get rolled up so that we're ready to smoke on day one. So we get to the factory on the first day, then we immediately start smoking. We typically don't realize that he forgot to order lunch until we're both queasy. And then his office manager comes in and says, If you don't order lunch, you're gonna kill this guy.
Vance Taylor:And and the the whole team there is is great. So from there, we'll make usually one to three tweaks. Working together, collaborating, I ask a lot of questions because I'm still learning, and he knows everything. He's got tobacco in his in his jeans, literally, and and we just rinse and repeat. And sometimes we get it done on one trip, and sometimes we don't.
Vance Taylor:And we take back the last best effort with me, and then I let those dry box a little bit and age, and then I try them again. And if it's not right, I get back on a plane. But I I so so far, I've been there every quarter, and that's my cadence. So Wow. At least a week, once a quarter.
Gizmo:Let's go back to the beginning of your journey into the cigar world. So what made you go from being a cigar lover to a cigar maker?
Vance Taylor:Why do I hate money?
Gizmo:There you go. Answer that question. That's a good question.
Vance Taylor:You know, so I I but jokes aside, like, if you're getting into this industry to make money, it's it's not the right why. Even if that ends up being the outcome later, if that's your why, it likely won't be. You have to have a deep love and passion for what you're doing. And so to me, it's a I felt like there was a real opportunity to combine the things that I'm good at, which are branding, marketing, go to market, productization, and the thing that I love, which is cigars and the cigar community. As far as my, like, my stated mission and purpose, it's I believe that all of the key players in the industry from manufacturers to retailers to media are responsible for growing this industry.
Vance Taylor:And and primarily because if we're if we're not proactive and intentional about it, this industry has a high risk of extinction between regulatory and tax and compliance challenges. If we're not birthing new cigar smokers every generation, we could be we could be gone in one or two, really. I mean, it's like a legitimate threat.
Bam Bam:It's a constant theme that we've been hearing Yeah.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. And so everything from the blend to the price point for me is about accessibility, and it's about supporting brick and mortar retails, first of all, because I feel like that's where cigar smokers are born. They may buy cigars online later, but very few never smoked a cigar guys are going online and buying their first cigar. I just don't think that's how it happens. And so you have to support the brick and mortar.
Vance Taylor:You have to have price points that are accessible so as many people as possible can afford it and a a cigar blend and strength that as many people as possible can smoke and enjoy. And I think one of the challenges we face in this country now is with the palate, the way the palate has evolved and shift with so much coming out of Nicaragua, great cigars, strong cigars. But you get these earthy laharro bombs, you hand it to a brand new cigar smoker. It might be the last cigar ever smoked.
Gizmo:Exactly right.
Vance Taylor:And you miss the chance to convert them into the fold where they can then grow and expand their palate over time like we all did. And so that's what I'm trying to do with Stoke. I'm really proactive and intentional about my responsibility of creating new cigar smokers.
Pagoda:No, it's great because you think about everybody who's trying to get into cigars. All my friends who've started all prefer the milder versions. They cannot take Padron in the first go. You know, they start off with something very light. Even women, right, Including some of the people you've met, they start off very slow, and then you begin to see that over a period of time, they're seeking for something more, and they move towards stronger blends.
Pagoda:Correct. But that's fantastic, yeah. Yeah, and when you
Vance Taylor:think about it, so the real challenge then was how do I blend a cigar that accomplishes that that's something I would smoke every day? And what what we got as a result is something that I would call very elegant. So when you thread that needle of low enough in strength but high enough in complexity and nuance and sophistication, you get something that's really elegant on the palate. I mean, this is full palate coverage, so I would call it full flavored. Yeah.
Vance Taylor:It's certainly not said the same.
Bam Bam:No doubt.
Senator:And I think what's remarkable about that, you know, usually when we describe a cigar as balanced, as refined, as complex, usually we're talking about cigars at a high price point.
Vance Taylor:Yep.
Senator:And to see, and I think that's why it's so fun having a conversation with you and also when we spoke with Klas, if you're intentional about the blend, you can deliver that same experience at an affordable price point for smokers, and I think that's a niche that you've clearly found that is so powerful in terms of what consumers are looking for from a cigar.
Vance Taylor:A 100%. I genuinely feel like you can put the cigar on the shelf next to the premium brands that we all know that I won't name that are $20 to $40 and give those same customers a premium offering in the same like that super premium Dominican cigar for half or a quarter of the price. I mean, to
Senator:your point, when we did the blind review on the the Courage,
Vance Taylor:we had no by the price.
Senator:Yeah. We were shocked. We had no idea what the price point was, and had we been told it was a $30 cigar, we would have believed it.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. That's
Senator:very Because that's how complex and balanced the flavor profile was. So it's a real testament to what Thank you all been
Gizmo:I wanna get to the branding and and what you're doing with the bands and and stoicism and everything else in a minute. But I, for the listener and for us, what brands, what cigars were you in love with before you ventured into building stoic? Like, what cigars did you love that blew your mind? What were you smoking a lot?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Great question. I so I went through, I think, the the classic arc of light cigars to you jump right into, like, the really heavy stuff. I don't know why that's the arc, but I think so many guys have gone through it. So I smoked for a while a lot of Drew Estate and Taptoirje and Padron and the kind of really heavy Nicaraguan cigars.
Vance Taylor:And I still I love Tattoaje. I think they do really good stuff. And then I and then I settled back down into a lot of the premium Dominicans, so Davodoff. I also smoked a lot of Adebe before, but I also made a lot more money back then. And but so, you know, right up before I I had my own cigars to smoke every day, I I primarily smoked those cigars, Davittoff, Tattois, Adebe.
Bam Bam:Nice.
Vance Taylor:You know, one of my favorite cigars of all time that I also would say is very elegant. I don't if you guys have smoked the La Verite 2,009 from Tattois. I'll have to send you some. I mean, that that that's one of those cigars that inspired my blend.
Bam Bam:Really? Wow.
Vance Taylor:That I that I still draw to. It's one of my favorite cigars of all time.
Bam Bam:Wow.
Vance Taylor:But very elegant. It wasn't super heavy. It wasn't your classic Tatouaje. You would think of it. It's not like the Cahonu or, like, you know, some of those really heavy cigars, but very, very good.
Senator:You So mentioned you had a background in marketing. Yeah. Just I'm curious a little bit about your story. You know, what were you doing before that clearly prepared you very well for where you are right now?
Vance Taylor:Yeah, so I was in sales in the health tech space early in my career. I moved quickly into leadership, but I mainly led sales teams and sales organizations. And then I got hired by this company as a vice president of sales and marketing because they didn't have a marketing leader, so they sort of just lumped it in. So I don't have classical training per se in marketing, but I became responsible for it. And I'm a quick study, and I read a lot.
Senator:You're a better way to learn than on the job.
Vance Taylor:Yeah, I learned it on the job, and I helped that company. In three months, we relaunched a new brand that set that company on track to where we could triple unit production and double our average sales price at the same time, and so we hit a really rapid growth streak. I was there three and a half years, and we grew our annual revenue by four and a half percent or sorry, 450%, so four and half times, and and got that company ready to exit. And I took an early exit so that I could do this, that's how I got into cigars. Nice.
Vance Taylor:Burned the boats and said, We've been talking about it for ten years now. If we aren't gonna do it now, then we're never gonna do it, so we should stop talking about it. And we my wife, being very supportive and having a good job to pace the pills, she
Bam Bam:Yeah.
Vance Taylor:She said, Let's do it. So I have to ask.
Senator:We met your wife briefly. Clearly very supportive. Amazing. Was she into cigars before you all met, or did you get her into cigars?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. So I I give her some grief about that because she she had never had experience with cigars, but she started smoking them with me and and said she loved them. And I don't know if she was just trying to woo me, but but to her credit, she still smokes. She doesn't smoke them as much. When we were dating, before she got the ring on her finger, she would smoke them every every time I would smoke them.
Vance Taylor:I need
Bam Bam:conversation to have with Mrs. Bam Bam when I get back. Okay?
Gizmo:We need some training. That's gotta happen.
Vance Taylor:No, and she has been great, and she smoked. In fact, so this is, it's really funny. The first blend, we finished on my second trip. That first trip, I was there for almost three weeks, thinking I was gonna go home with a blend, it just wasn't ready. And the second trip, I brought her with me, and we finished the blend on that trip.
Vance Taylor:Then I did two more working on the second blend, which will come out this summer, and I I lamented to you earlier some of my frustrations. We were like, the binder was giving us trouble. We just couldn't get it right. And then she came with me on my last trip, and I said, hey. You're my good luck charm.
Vance Taylor:I was gonna say, she should
Gizmo:probably get dubbed this time.
Vance Taylor:And sure enough, it was almost the last day there again, just like the first time. And we we made one small tweak, and that one small tweak hit the mark, and it was lightning in a bottle. And I know I I can tell you right now, that second blend is going to it's going to turn heads. It's really, really good.
Bam Bam:Can't wait.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Yeah. You guys all have one in your pocket,
Senator:I think.
Bam Bam:Yes.
Gizmo:So you launched stoic cigars with four cigars. Correct? We smoked the Courage, which is the Robusto 50 by five. In our hands, we're actually, the four of us right now are smoking the Wisdom, which is 48 ring gauge by seven, the Churchill. There's a, I guess, a Corona, 46 by five and a half called Moderation, and then a Toro 52 by six called the Justice.
Gizmo:So tell us about your love of stoicism, Marcus Aurelius, and what, you know, inspired you to name your cigar brand after that?
Vance Taylor:You know, I I like finding little patterns in nature and things that seem to be organically occurring that are interesting and unique, and and I came across stoicism accidentally. I was just finding the next book on leadership. I read a lot of that type of stuff. I have my whole career. And I found a book called How to Think Like a Roman Emperor by Donald Robertson.
Vance Taylor:And it was a book about leadership, but it was really telling the story of Marcus Aurelius' life and how he became the great Roman stoic emperor. And he was a student of stoicism. And that got me down the rabbit hole on stoicism and what it was and what it was all about, and I immediately saw a natural correlation to cigar smoking. And to me, we're all stoic meditators. We just don't necessarily know that's what we're doing.
Vance Taylor:But the way that we care for our cigars, and we're very intentional and deliberate about that, the way that we cut them perfectly and light them intentionally so that they Most of us.
Gizmo:Most of us. Pagoda sometimes does it.
Pagoda:I mean, I just ask all
Vance Taylor:of myself like a noob.
Bam Bam:Happens in our
Gizmo:group. Also Pagoda. Yeah. Correct.
Vance Taylor:And me. I remember the I remember the comment on the podcast that you were relatively clean. But, you know, stoicism at its core is about the when you read, like, the one liner of what it is, it's it's living in accordance with nature. I think that point's often misinterpreted to mean, like, the environment, but it's really talking about the natural order of the universe and the nature of man. And what it's really saying is living with confidence and at peace with the things you can't control, good or bad, the things that happen to you that you can't control.
Vance Taylor:And that mindset is about resiliency and mental fortitude, and that's a muscle that's weakened in our society. Life, as hard as we make it out to be, is so much easier than it's ever been in the world today. And because of that, that muscle of mental fortitude and resiliency is atrophied in society largely. And so that's why stoicism is trending so much right now, especially among the similar demographic that smoke cigars, mainly males in their thirties to sixties. And and so as I got into the weeds on it and started to understand mindfulness and meditative practice, I thought, man, cigar smoking is such a natural it's almost like an instrument that you can use as a tool in the practice of stoicism.
Vance Taylor:And so that's how I started to think about my own cigar smoking session. So rather than just like turning on a rerun or doom scrolling on my phone, I used the time to study and and think about how was my day, what can I do tomorrow to make that day better than this day? And it started to make real positive changes in my life, and I thought, man, this is such a good concept where we could, if we do it right, cross pollinate the community that's growing around stoic thought and stoic practice and the community that's growing around cigar smoking and get cigar smokers being a little more mindful. That's why my tagline is smoke mindfully. And get, you know, these stoic thinkers to try to dip the toe in the water of cigar smoking to add it as part of their meditative practice.
Vance Taylor:And why not grow both communities and and get a synergy out of that?
Gizmo:The one thing I love about your story, you know, your tagline, the brand name, is it's not just marketing BS. Like, you're living that. Obviously, you're you know, it's it's a core part of what you're doing and why, so I admire that. It's not just some, oh, I thought this would be a cool name or I think this is a cool tagline. Like, you're living and breathing it Yep.
Gizmo:And smoking it
Chef:Yep.
Gizmo:You know, which is pretty cool. I have a quick question. Cigars aside, if or for a listener out there who's interested in stoicism, smoking their cigars, they wanna read, what would be the one book you'd point them to to get started on that journey?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. I would definitely start with the book I just mentioned, the How to Think Like a Roman Emperor. And the reason being is it's a it's a story. It's a very easy read. Like, you don't wanna start with the, you know, like, the curriculum stuff, the meditation Meditation.
Vance Taylor:Or the Epictetus handbook or the Discourses or Seneca. That's just all great, I think, if and when you're ready. But same reason you don't wanna start with a a double Ligero for your first cigar. Right? Sure.
Vance Taylor:So that's a good place to start. And then there's lots of modern day stoics too. A lot of people read them, and they don't know. But Ryan Day, like The Object Is The Way, Tim Ferriss, those guys are they're stoics. So there's a lot of modern text too that you can read that they're all about dealing with life's challenges.
Vance Taylor:This whole concept is that the only suffering exists in your mind. A lot of and the Stoics talk about it a lot. For example, you know, if you break your leg and it hurts, you're dealing with the pain of a broken leg. If you then mentally dwell on that pain and lament the pain and whine and complain about whatever caused it, you're just adding to your own suffering. So the thing has already happened.
Vance Taylor:There's no point now. It's sort of like the don't cry over spilled milk mantra that we all grew up with. And so, yeah, I think that that way of thinking is really important, and we're we're missing it more and more in society.
Bam Bam:Do you think you know, we had the pleasure to speak with Klaus earlier today, Very intellectual. Mhmm. And listening to you speak, it seems to me that both of you are kindred spirits. Mhmm. You're approaching your businesses as an intellectual endeavor, right?
Bam Bam:Not just to make money or not just to blend a cigar and get it out. And he was the last company that you essentially interviewed. How did that go, and how long did it take for you to make the decision to go with him?
Vance Taylor:So it went great, first of all, because like I said, it was very hands on. They brought out all the tobacco that they had on hand for us to start trying. He was educational. And you're right. Like, he's very cerebral.
Bam Bam:Absolutely.
Vance Taylor:And we we we clicked immediately. Like, I I immediately could see, like, our families becoming friends, which they have since. Like, his father and his wife and his his mother, they hung out in the booth for an hour this morning and had coffee and cigars. That's where they started their day. And, like, I I could see that off in the future immediately.
Vance Taylor:So that was a really
Bam Bam:Makes sense.
Vance Taylor:Good moment where you kinda know it's that sort of love at first sight moment that you have with certain people. You know they're part of your tribe.
Bam Bam:We can hear it in in in what you're you're talking about. Yeah.
Vance Taylor:So that so, I mean, I I left the factory that day, and and I called my wife, and I said, you're not gonna believe this. Because we thought we knew what we were gonna do and where we were gonna go, and I said, I think we're gonna make our cigars at Kellner. She's like, who who's that? That's great. So, yeah, it just I just knew.
Vance Taylor:And then we we we finished another day of blending, and then I went back to his office a third day, and I I sat down and I said, so listen, we're gonna make our cigars here. And he's like, wow. Thank you so much for the trust. And I said, I I know you're gonna do right by us. And and he has.
Vance Taylor:You know? Oh, yeah. He's prioritized. He's pulled rabbits out of hats for us, which you have to do in this industry. Think all the rabbits in this industry come out of hats, and he's been great.
Bam Bam:Yeah. The the courage was incredibly delicious.
Gizmo:This wisdom is This is
Vance Taylor:That's my favorite size.
Gizmo:Let me tell you something. The fact that you're putting out a Churchill in your initial run of four cigars warms my heart. Mhmm. Because we talk so often that there are not enough great Churchills in the non Cuban space.
Vance Taylor:Yep.
Gizmo:And in the Cuban space as well, but we love a Churchill, and this delivering
Bam Bam:There are excellent similar nuances between this and the Courage. That, and the Courage, I mentioned this earlier to Klas, I get more of a sweet cream with an undertone of a very light coffee. For this, the creamy, the sweet creaminess dissipates a bit, but it's more of a richer coffee experience that I'm
Vance Taylor:getting. Interesting. Yeah. Outstanding. I mean, I love the the I love the, like, old school Churchill size, the seven by 48.
Vance Taylor:So it was really important to me that we do it like the old world Churchill, not the new modern monster Churchills, and I think it's very elegant. It is. But, yeah, I also I just think at that size first of I think that's the right ring gauge for this blend because, you know, we have a couple strips in this filler. It's the same amount whether it's a 46 or 52. And so the smaller the ring gauge gets, the the more prominent that those two strips are because you can't do anything with them.
Vance Taylor:Like, the other filler, you know, you're bunching it and you're breaking it and refilling with it, and it's gonna balance out no matter what the size is. But those when you're using little strips of things for very specific, to play a specific function in the blend, that's why we did four blends because they're different enough even though it's or sorry, four sizes. So even though it's one blend, they're different enough from size to size, but this expression of it is my favorite.
Senator:I was gonna say, I think we talked this morning a little bit about this, but I think it's helpful for our listeners as they're looking through the line and trying to decide, you know, what fits the bill for them. How would you describe the differences in those sizes? I know there's a smaller Ringgauge one. You were talking about that does to the profile of the Blend.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Probably the best way to compare would be to compare the two ends of the spectrum. So the Corona Gorda, the 46, and the 52 Toro. What you'll notice between the two, the 46 is much punchier. And again, we have two tobaccos in the filler of the five that are just strips.
Vance Taylor:And so when everything else around that cigar shrinks, those become more prominent. They become a higher ratio relative to the the total tobacco in the cigar. And so the 46 is very flavorful. I love that cigar too. It's really punchy.
Vance Taylor:It's not a lot it's not much stronger even though both those strips are Ligero. They're the only two Ligero in the blend, but it is punchier. So it's a it's a real flavor bomb. The Toro is very smooth. It's very soft on your palate.
Vance Taylor:I wouldn't say it's lighter. Again, strength is about the same across the line, but it's just a very light coating of your palate. It's a great cigar because you can smoke it down to the nub, and I love that you guys, when you smoked it on the original pod, you were talking about how quarter inch left, and it's just as smooth. It's not hot. It's not harsh.
Bam Bam:Not at all.
Vance Taylor:And so, you know, the Toro's great. You can smoke them back to back, and it's Oh, you know, no doubt about double that.
Bam Bam:No doubt.
Gizmo:Yeah. Yep. So let's talk about the blend a little bit. I know Lizard Henrito, when he came on that episode with us, told us what the components of the cigar were. There's something secretive that no one wants to disclose.
Bam Bam:Now don't upset Klaus here. Tell us what you can.
Vance Taylor:I'm curious. I'm the one that I'm the one that gave him the gag order.
Gizmo:Ah. Ah. That's right. What is the reason for the gag order? What what can you tell us?
Vance Taylor:So the reason that we don't disclose the one tobacco in the filler is because it comes from a country that most people, including myself, don't know or didn't know grow tobacco, let alone four cigars. And so it was it was really surprising. It's such a unique and distinct flavor note, and for me, it's a signature note. I'm using it in my second blend as well. And as as long as it works, I'll use it in all my core lines.
Vance Taylor:And that way, know you're smoking a stoic cigar. Even though the blends will be different, they'll be recognizable as as a so they'll be on brand, which is important for me. Yeah. And it's not that I think someone's gonna go copy it. It's a very difficult tobacco to work with because it can it can spin off the rails in one direction or another, either very florally or very bitter if you don't balance it right.
Vance Taylor:That's been part of our challenge. But to me, those are the opportunities. Because you can do something that no literally, there's I'm you guys are probably smoking a lot of cigars at this show. I I would I would pause it that you won't smoke one that tastes like this for that reason. And so that that's why that one's kept secret.
Vance Taylor:The rest of the blend, though, it's a double Habano, so wraparound binder, two varietals of Ecuadorian Habano that that play very nicely together. And then in the filler, it's it's Sam Vicente, Eloto Cubano, Pennsylvania, Criojo 98, and then the The secret. Secret tobacco. Yeah.
Gizmo:Very cool.
Senator:It's very validating to hear you say that because when we smoked the Courage, all of us said the flavor profile, as much as we enjoyed it, there was nothing we would directly compare it to that we've tasted and experienced.
Bam Bam:That's right. Yep.
Senator:And what was so impressive was it's not often that that's the case. I mean, there's so many different types of cigars out there. Many smokes, you'll have some, you'll say, This reminds me a bit of X. Yep. It's rare, and that was the case with Stoic that we said, This is so unique and differentiated, and I think it's gonna be tremendous for your business.
Vance Taylor:Yeah, Agreed.
Pagoda:Know a lot of us did throughout the Honduran.
Gizmo:Yeah, We thought it was Honduran.
Bam Bam:We did.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. I know. I got a kick out of that.
Bam Bam:Thank you.
Vance Taylor:The the the one tobacco that's nowhere in the cigar.
Gizmo:It's the one we were calling out. Yeah.
Vance Taylor:So the other thing I will say about the undisclosed tobacco is the the brightness that you get from the cigar, the little bit of acidity. I compare it to, like, a I get more of, a lemon peel note from that. That's that's that tobacco.
Bam Bam:Oh, wow.
Vance Taylor:And when I smoked it by itself, it was, like, lights out. It was so so dominant and present, and it's such a unique flavor. I immediately, like, picked up the mantle of we're gonna figure out how to make this work in my blend. And so we actually started with that. So the question about blending, think, is interesting because where do you start?
Vance Taylor:Do you start with, like, what you want the flavor notes to be, what you want the strength to be? You pick a wrapper and go from there. There's lots of different, like, pick off points for starting a blend. For me, it was how do we get this tobacco into a blend and then check the rest of the boxes I had around strength and complexity?
Gizmo:So we were told, I think, via Henrito I think Matt at Summit we have to shout out Matt at Summit Cigars who helped Lizard Henry put this whole thing together for us and obviously led us here to have this great conversation with you. We keep hearing that what's coming next is somehow even better. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Bam Bam:What's in the pipeline?
Vance Taylor:Essentially, we we started with the premise that the next blend needs to increase a little bit a little bit, like a couple ticks in strength and body, just so that we can expand down to that next level of smoker who's only gonna smoke something that they deem strong enough. And it's really important, even more important, I think, in this blend because of the branding, which we'll we'll announce here probably in a a month or two, that the balance be on point. This whole brand around this next blend is around balance, especially the way that stoics perceive balance. And so that was the the challenge and opportunity. What came out of that, it's same thing, seven tobaccos.
Vance Taylor:So very complex, very sophisticated, a little bit stronger, and much fuller on the palate, heavier on the it's not as light on the palate. It's really good, guys. Really? Yeah. Wow.
Vance Taylor:I mean, we go down the rabbit hole of, like
Bam Bam:Can we expect a bit of pepper?
Vance Taylor:A little bit a little bit more spice. Okay. And some really, like, fun, unique flavors on the retrohale. Like so, like, the little bit of light honey you get from the original blend moves into more of, a heavy molasses. We get some, like, black licorice on the retrohale.
Vance Taylor:Oh, wow.
Bam Bam:Wow. And how often do you retrohale?
Vance Taylor:All the time. And that's why I love the cigars, because you can retro
Rooster:the Oh whole
Bam Bam:So that's a diametric opposite of what Klaus earlier said.
Senator:So we you're you're you're wading into a a very heated lizard debate.
Bam Bam:Oh, really? Now into the retrohale vortex.
Senator:We're sitting on opposite sides of the table because this is how this debate comes Who's
Vance Taylor:pro retrohale?
Senator:These are these are the retrohale guys. Right here. We're not as
Gizmo:Pagoda and Senator Arendt, but Bam Bam.
Senator:It was perfect because Bam Bam asked Klaus, we were interviewing him, how important is the retrohale? And Klaus said, I never retrohale. None of smoke will you. Klaus is it.
Bam Bam:Yeah. You go.
Rooster:Klaus is all
Vance Taylor:about getting the smoke all the way to the very depths of your palate and all the way to the back of your of your mouth Yep. Which is really important. That's where you're finding where all the balance is. If you wanna check and double check and triple check the flavor, you have to retrohale. Agreed.
Vance Taylor:Because so much of your tasting mechanics are in your old factory.
Bam Bam:But it's not something you need to do with every draw
Rooster:No.
Vance Taylor:No. No.
Bam Bam:Or every other draw. No. It's on occasion. And I've seen them both do that.
Vance Taylor:Yeah.
Bam Bam:They'll admit to it.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. We have. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, especially with this cigar because I love those flavors in the in the in the sinus cavity.
Vance Taylor:Absolutely. I retrohale all the time I
Bam Bam:live for that.
Vance Taylor:This cigar. Yeah. And and it's worth doing because you will taste new things. Like, it's That's true. That's science.
Gizmo:That's true. So let's talk about the branding itself.
Vance Taylor:Okay.
Gizmo:You've done a great job with the bands. You know, we're we're harsh critics on bands, and you have a fantastic band here on the cigar. The branding's great. On the back, you have a QR code that when you scan it takes you to a login area on your website, which Lizard Henrico was telling us is so that smokers can document their experience and effectively give you feedback Yep. Every time they smoke.
Gizmo:Yeah. So tell us about that component of of what you're doing, why, and what you're learning from smokers who are actually filling that information out.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. So the impetus for the web app was to give Stokes cigar smokers a place where they could, A, earn points. So it originally started as I wanted to I was exploring the ability to do like a golden ticket type marketing motion, which essentially allows you to give credit and value to the end user of your product. Well, the problem with cigars is if you put some sort of reward point system or or, you know, serial number that you can exchange for whatever on the exterior of the cigar or on the box, anyone walking through the humidor can can capture that, or the retailer can capture that and consume consume those rewards. So so the first challenge was how do I get something into the hands of the person that actually smokes the cigar to thank them for smoking the cigar and engage them with the brand on an ongoing basis?
Vance Taylor:And that became a platform where we could put a unique ID underneath the main band. The person who smokes it takes off the main band. They find the ID. They key it into the web app, and they get credit. Since we were doing that anyway, then the challenge became how do we make this how do we build value into this innovation piece, this technology piece, so that it's worth their time to do and also provides an ongoing basis for community around the brand?
Vance Taylor:And so, yeah, I I started with an initial simple, you know, rewards exchange type system, and by the time I was done with my web developer, like everything, I I over dreamed it, and it became in its first release heat map, which will show you where all the Stokes cigars that have smoked are being smoked. Oh, that's pretty cool. That's cool.
Gizmo:That's very cool. That's pretty
Vance Taylor:cool. It'll show you a leaderboard where you can see where you rank all time versus the last, and then also a last thirty days so the new smokers can see their name climbing as well Wow. As the OGs.
Gizmo:That's awesome.
Bam Bam:Then I know you're giving us some great ideas.
Vance Taylor:I mean, it's awesome. It's great. And then first and foremost, as soon as you enter in that ID, it's tied to that specific cigar, so it knows exactly that you smoked a Wisdom out of the line, and it logs that in a cigar journal entry for you, a digital journal. And then it allows you to add your own scoring on aroma and draw and construction and flavor and all the critical metrics. Then you can log your notes, you can add some pictures, and it and it keeps a journal entry for you.
Vance Taylor:The cool thing about that is you can choose to log a non stoke cigar as well. So if you don't if you're smoking any cigar from your collection, you can log that in that journal as well so you can use it for all your cigars. And then the benefit for me is I get to see what my customers are smoking besides my cigar, and it gives me an idea of, like, what else are they looking for?
Bam Bam:Wow.
Vance Taylor:If it's not stoic, what is it? And if we start to see some trends, we don't have a ton of data yet because we're new, but that data will be very valuable for me when I'm developing the next blend.
Senator:Yeah, I have to say, I mean, I'm a marketer by trade and do market research. I was floored that no one, especially a lot of the bigger manufacturers, have come up with a system like this to be able to collect real time feedback on every single cigar that their consumer is smoking. I mean, to be able to spot, okay, maybe there was a, you know, a troubling production run and we're suddenly getting bad scores on construction or whatever the case may be. That's the only way to know that in real time before you lose a customer that gives up. And so I just thought such a smart thing to do.
Senator:Yeah.
Bam Bam:And Klaus mentioned it as well with his focus groups
Senator:that he has.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. No. I appreciate that. I I the great thing about the cigar industry, and the it's a double edged sword, is because it's such an old world industry with lots of charm, there's lots of room for disruption. So there's all sorts of things that are would be considered commonplace or standard in other industries that just don't exist here at all.
Vance Taylor:And and for me, like, I'm I'm a disruptor in in life in general. And so I I try to look for those things. Everything from the little details on the band to the boxes with the lid slip and this community that we're building, you know, it's just opportunities to take the whole industry to another level. And I would love if other brands copied and did the same thing because I think we need more of this pushing each other and challenging each other to grow. The other edge of the sword is because it's a charming old world industry, things like supply chain and like things that would normally be automated and real time reports, and I can see how many boxes I have being made versus those in the factory versus those in inventory, They just don't exist.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Mhmm. So that that's the headwind. So there's lots of room to improve across the supply chain and and across the industry, but from my what I can control on the manufacturing side, we're we're taking it very seriously.
Gizmo:And what was the impetus on the box to put the the lid slip, I I guess you call it,
Vance Taylor:or Yeah.
Gizmo:On the back of the box? So for the listener, when you take the lid off of the sliding lid box, there's a slot on the back of the box that you can stand the lid up, and then there's branding on the inside of the lid that sits above the actual box. So it looks really nice in the humidor. So what was your impetus for wanting to do that?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. So two things again. So in thinking about the retailer experience, I really wanted to make sure that any retailer could carry the line easily. So it's priced right, first of all. I do cabinet style boxes, so they're, you know, they're 20 count boxes.
Vance Taylor:It's five by four, so they're they're taller than they are wide. And that allows so you can carry the entire line, everything I sell right now, in a 14 inches shelf space. So it's very retailer friendly. And then what the challenge of cabinet boxes is, you know, where's your vista? Where's the rest of the display?
Vance Taylor:A hinge box, you just open the lid and you see it stands up. And so, you know, some people have put, like, little notches on the top of the box. The problem is then you've got the full height of the box plus the full height of the lid. It's not gonna fit on almost any humidor shelf. And so it was a really simple thing for me.
Vance Taylor:I said, well, if you could just slide it behind the box to have it stay there and have it go all the way to the bottom, then you have a little bit showing. They don't have to toss the lids, which most of do. They just throw them away. Or they put it under the box, then it's all, like, uneven, and they're wobbly, and it's it's just kinda messy. And so, yeah, I just I asked the boxmaker if he could do it, and he looked at me for a few minutes.
Vance Taylor:He said, that's genius. I've been making boxes for twenty years. Why hasn't anybody ever done this? I said, I don't know, but we're gonna do it. And so yeah.
Vance Taylor:I and then so good feedback best feedback I've had so far at the show, because so many retailers have come through, is they're they're all in love with it. One lady who just opened an account actually for for four shops is great. She's been taping her lids to the back of her boxes. Oh, wow. And she's this is gonna save me so much time.
Gizmo:That's awesome. And tape. And tape. So you were talking about, you know, you had no idea ten years ago that you'd be where you are now. Right?
Gizmo:So what what's your vision for the next three to five years, let's say? And then let's look ahead ten years. What where do you see stoic? What's your what are you manifesting? Like, what do you what do you see in the future here?
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Well, I think the the next few years are gonna be really critical because we're at that point where you're really balancing cash flow and growth. Right? And so you can dump all your cash into cigars and have no money, and and then you've gotta you've gotta sell them all. You can invest in other areas and then risk being back ordered.
Vance Taylor:And so it's a real balancing act now. What I'm committed to over the next several years is taking our time and being very intentional about our releases. So we'll have a release this year. We'll probably have a new cigar working on two new blends that go in a set for PCA next year. And then starting in year three, that's when we'll probably do our first, I like, don't wanna call it limited edition, but maybe an annual release type type motion.
Vance Taylor:And so the the point of that is just that we're not gonna inundate our retail partners with six new blends a year, throwing everything against the wall to see what'll stick, keeping the ADHD alive and well in their shop because it's the only way we can sell cigars. We're not gonna do that. If the cigars we wanna convert regular smokers to our brand that come in looking for Stoic. That's their daily or weekly or whatever go to, and that's how you build a really solid base. So we're we're committed to breaking the mold on some of the things that we think have gotten out of control.
Vance Taylor:I mean, I I now that I'm subscribed to all of the cigar news and media outlets, the number of releases coming out, I don't know how retailers do it honestly. It's crazy. It's insane.
Gizmo:It's crazy. Yeah. The amount of emails that I've gotten in Oh the last two weeks my it's unmanageable. Yeah. It's pretty wild.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. So that that's the real focus for the next, like, three to five years is to get a really solid portfolio to market of, you know, four to six really well established core lines so we can start doing more of the interesting limited production runs. And then over the next ten years, yeah, we expect to be in other markets outside of The US once we've locked this basin. We think this cigar will do really well in Europe, Cuban smokers. Absolutely.
Vance Taylor:Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, but we will again, we wanna take our time, do it right, be very intentional and thoughtful about it, and and we're confident that this business is gonna grow. I'd also like to get some employees.
Gizmo:One, two, three, four. We're ready. We're ready. I guess my final question is, is there a palette of these cigars around that you could ship to New Jersey for us? Because I know that they've been hard to get the last
Bam Bam:We few
Gizmo:we need some stoic.
Bam Bam:Well, we've fighting over the allocation.
Gizmo:Yeah. We've been fighting over the cigars we've It's
Bam Bam:not good.
Gizmo:Yeah. Since we reviewed it because Lizard Henry, I think, has gone through two boxes of cigars Yeah. In the last four or five weeks. Like, he's smoking them every day.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Well, you you guys have no one to blame but yourselves for the run for the run on stoic. But, you know, so jokes aside, I just I just received my first palette.
Gizmo:Oh, awesome.
Vance Taylor:And it was really, like, it was just another, like, you know, notch on on the belt, so to speak, of benchmarks that we've crossed. So I've I've had shipments from the Doctor, obviously, because we've been selling cigars, but they've come in the first one was a small box that went to the right to the shop where we're doing the event for our our soft launch last November, and then a couple other small orders, then one that was like two boxes, and this was my first time getting where I had to get a pallet forklifted into my garage. Nice. That's awesome. And that felt really cool.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. So I'm well stocked. All my PCA orders will be fulfilled next week. I've got a whole bunch going. I just met the shop owner at your lounge where you guys do your podcast.
Gizmo:Yeah, John Carlo. Yeah. He came out. Wonderful.
Vance Taylor:Came by. Awesome. And so he's eager to get going. So yeah, I think you guys will be flush in Stoic in no
Bam Bam:That's excellent.
Gizmo:Awesome. Well, we're very happy to hear that.
Vance Taylor:Yeah. Wow.
Gizmo:Well, like I said, you know, when we started recording, and I'll say it again now, thank you for this amazing cigar. Thank you for creating Stoic, and really thank you for the time today telling us your story, sharing this with us. We really appreciate it, and I'm so glad that we were able to connect. Like I said, serendipity.
Vance Taylor:It's It's amazing.
Gizmo:It seems like everything has lined up here to connect with Stoic and enjoy these brilliant cigars.
Bam Bam:Awesome. Very fortunate to have found this. Yeah. Honestly.
Vance Taylor:Thank you, guys. Appreciate you.
Gizmo:Alright, Vance. Thanks so much.
Senator:You. Thank you.
Gizmo:Alright. We have to thank Vance Taylor, the founder and we use the word mastermind of Stoic Cigars for sitting down with us at PCA twenty twenty five and giving us that great interview, sharing all of that awesome knowledge. I'm really impressed by the guy.
Bam Bam:Me too.
Gizmo:I'm sure all our listeners are as well. And that wraps up our PCA twenty twenty five coverage. We've spread out the interviews over about, I guess six months now. And I'm glad we did because we kept it fresh and brought in those interviews alongside cigars that were relevant to the interview. So I'm very happy we did that.
Gizmo:I really appreciate Vance and everyone for sitting down with us at PCA twenty twenty five. We look forward to doing it next year again.
Bam Bam:Hopefully, beat six interviews. Go for eight maybe. I like it.
Gizmo:Alright. So boys, we are now at the end of the second third on the stoic equanimity in courage. What's everybody thinking?
Bam Bam:Well, wanna hear Pagoda on this one. How's your what do you think about the combustion on the cigar?
Pagoda:Yeah. No. I think it's really, really opened up for me. I think I did squeeze the cigar around a bit around the neck. And I think maybe it's, you know, how sometimes cigars in the second half just open up a bit more or they're burning a little better.
Pagoda:For me, it's really opened up. The jaws become better. I think the flavors are slightly more, you know, clearer or, know, Clear. Yeah. Just overall enjoying the experience now.
Pagoda:I think the first half, I think because of snug draw, I wasn't feeling exactly the same way you guys were, but this has really developed into something really nice.
Gizmo:I have one major complaint about the
Bam Bam:Oh, shit.
Pagoda:What is it?
Bam Bam:You're relighting it?
Gizmo:No. The band. The damn second band and the white What? Code under it was nearly impossible to get off without destroying the wrapper.
Rooster:I think there's too much glue.
Gizmo:Yeah. I was fighting that band to get it off. I was really trying to be delicate. I used my teeth at one point so I didn't rip the wrapper. Thankfully I got it off.
Bam Bam:I don't think it's the glue but it's actually wrapped very tightly, the bands.
Chef:I think it's both. I have a big splotch of
Bam Bam:So did you try sliding the third band, if you want to call it? Okay, well done.
Gizmo:I tried, yeah, mine. If I slid it, it would have ripped the wrapper. It was that tight on there.
Pagoda:So I know Vance has put
Chef:that
Pagoda:additional band to be able to, you know, from a marketing perspective. Also for a research
Gizmo:perspective, generally. Also to get direct feedback. So, you know, we've talked about this before. Thanks for bringing that up again. Very easy.
Gizmo:We talked about this before. There's a white band that sits under the main band of the cigar and it has a code on it. It's six unique letters and numbers that you can go to the Stoic cigars website, register, and you can track along with that cigar, that specific cigar code and give Vance and Stoic feedback. You could track your cigar history. It's a really robust, awesome way to interact with the fans and you can win some merch, swag and all that stuff.
Gizmo:The more you smoke, I guess the more you win. So pretty cool that they're doing that. So you can find that white band with black six letters of text under the main band of the cigar.
Pagoda:It's like
Bam Bam:a fortune cookie.
Pagoda:It is. It is.
Gizmo:Ma'am, what does your fortune say?
Bam Bam:I don't know. You'll be in a This perky place
Gizmo:was a Bam approved activity. Correct.
Pagoda:But I'm wondering whether it's been successful. It'd be great to, you know, ask him that question next next Yeah.
Gizmo:And, you know, I'm hoping that he's off to you know, I'm I'm hoping that the acceptance and adoption of folks smoking stoic in their rotation has been grand. But as we all know, I mean, it just takes a long time to build a business. So, you know, one step after the other, I'm I'm hoping that I'm hoping he's seeing continual progressive growth here in the company. And, I mean, I gotta say, we said this during the PCA wrap up conversation, but I was really impressed with his booth at PCA. Wow.
Gizmo:He really showed up and it was busy, man.
Bam Bam:Let's talk about this booth. The footprint was not very large. The entire area was maybe 15 feet wide, eight feet deep, but the amount of traffic that he had coming and going was stupendous.
Gizmo:He had more traffic than some of the big boys.
Bam Bam:Oh yeah.
Gizmo:Oh yeah. It was really, really impressive. Very There was a lot hype around stoic cigars at PCA and it was really great to see it.
Bam Bam:Yeah, he did great.
Gizmo:A lot of retailers were signing up and getting his cigars in their shops. So I'm so happy for him and you know, I can't wait to see what he does at the PCA twenty six.
Bam Bam:How are you finding the retrohale right now?
Gizmo:Right? Really nice. It's Actually, it's even more rich than it was, man.
Bam Bam:But it's it's very smooth and sweet and I'm getting a lot of bakery good type of a note in my retrohale.
Gizmo:I would argue that is an intense retrohale, and I use the word intense really positively because it lacks spice. So the times that we've talked about retrohale, like kind of making your eyes burn or making your eyes water, that's completely absent here. It's a rich, intense, really full It's almost like when you go to a restaurant chef and you get one of those dishes that is overwhelming to the palate in a good way. That's what I'm tasting here on the retro.
Pagoda:I can see Klas turning around and saying, What the hell are you talking about?
Bam Bam:Yeah, well he doesn't retro.
Gizmo:Yeah, Klas doesn't like the retro.
Bam Bam:That's correct.
Gizmo:He should because this cigar is delicious.
Bam Bam:Now let me tell you on the palate though, if you let the draw hit your entire tongue, it's very tannic but in a very pleasant way and it's balanced. It's like a pudding type of thing happening, almost like a tapioca with the tannic, so there's a little bit of savory and sweet thing happening. It's very balanced.
Pagoda:So from banana to tapioca. Tapioca now. Banana.
Bam Bam:We're hitting
Gizmo:all the notes.
Bam Bam:This is a surprising cigar.
Chef:The retrohale is rich and buttery, almost like a puff pastry. I mean, this thing is it's it's incredible the way it's delivering
Bam Bam:Getting that on the roll. What it does.
Gizmo:And I wanna add yeah. I wanna add one more piece, is the aroma. It is very complementary to the draw and the retrohale. Correct. Like, all three pieces together, it's a really, really complete Yeah.
Gizmo:Painting of this flavor profile. I got to give it to Colossi. He did nail that full palate coverage like you said, Bam.
Bam Bam:That's correct.
Gizmo:It's all there.
Bam Bam:Almost takes an intentional way of smoking. You got to let your entire palate capture the smoke and then it pull the lap back out.
Gizmo:That's why have said this so many times to listeners. Trying to find a way to I don't want to use the word mimic, but really that's what I'm saying. Try to do what we do here, which is eliminate all distraction, create a microscope situation where you sit down and you're looking into the microscope at what you're smoking. No TV, no football games, no phone, you know, not a ton of conversation that is not related to the cigar. No porn.
Gizmo:No porn, bam. Correct. But seriously, I think doing that is the reason why we're able to achieve what we have tasting this tonight because if we're sitting in the lounge puffing away watching football, it's chaotic Yeah. You're not gonna be as immersed in this as you should be.
Chef:It'll still be a good experience, but you're not getting the full experience. That's kind of my take on retrohaling. When you don't retrohale,
Gizmo:you don't get the full experience.
Bam Bam:I agree. Honestly, not even on the retro. I'm learning to slow down and appreciate the traditional draw and go very slow, And I find when I let the smoke hit the entire palate, my tongue just heats up just a little bit. And then when I push the smoke back out is when I'm capturing a lot of flavor, which I didn't really get before until I started intentionally smoking that way. And it takes a really intentional approach.
Chef:I agree. I do think the retrohale opens up a field of aromas that just really emphasize what you're tasting and just makes it a little bit more intense for me. And I do enjoy that. I think it's I I don't know how he does it. You know, usually as as a chef or, you know, when when you're presenting food and I feel it's easier to deliver a plethora of flavors because it's it's more literal Right here we're tasting smoke and we're trying to gather all of these nuances and class makes it easy.
Bam Bam:But that's the magic of the blending.
Chef:Yeah. Class makes it easy to do that.
Bam Bam:You almost have to have a master mastery of all of the tobaccos, what they're going to provide you when they're blended a certain way, a certain ratio.
Rooster:But I'm sure Vance would go up to Klass and say, Look, I'm looking for these flavors.
Bam Bam:Well he said that
Gizmo:in his
Bam Bam:notes. He'll deliver like a list of requirements and then they'll do testing so they discuss that.
Chef:I have a feeling these two guys get together and it's an amazing meeting. Mean
Pagoda:I mean, they're both
Gizmo:brilliant minds. They're both brilliant minds. I mean, sitting down with both of them, that Klaus interview for us was so eye opening, especially when he was drawing the tongue and the palate coverage and then Vance with That's his the
Pagoda:class is class.
Gizmo:Exactly. Yeah. In class with class. But you know, you sit down with Vance and he's running through his passion for it, how stoicism has played such an integral part in this. It's not just a name.
Gizmo:It's not just a brand for him. Like, it's
Chef:his It's his way of life.
Gizmo:It's his way of living. Yeah. And he's applied it to his his his favorite lifestyle or hobby.
Chef:This is what a chef's edition should be like.
Bam Bam:Oh, what a disappointment.
Gizmo:Well said.
Chef:This is what a chef's
Gizmo:edition messages we got, by the way, from listeners saying thank you for not?
Bam Bam:We didn't do any listener email.
Gizmo:Thank you for helping me not spend money on the Davidoff chefs edition because
Bam Bam:Great advice. It
Gizmo:wasn't
Bam Bam:Quick question for Pagoda though. Go ahead. You put a cube in your drink, how did it change the whiskey, the scotch?
Pagoda:It did. It did. You know, like, just put one cube, so it kind of really cooled it down, and I like having scotch a bit cooler, just generally. Mhmm. And I thought it was really interesting, first sip I had, and maybe because when it's cooler, I tend to take large I know you hate the gulps.
Bam Bam:I don't like the gulp. Yeah. It does. Certain situations I do.
Gizmo:By the way, last week or two weeks ago, he did gulp quite a bit. Correct.
Pagoda:Oh, you did?
Gizmo:There was a lot of gulping.
Bam Bam:That's correct.
Pagoda:Yeah. No. But I, you know, I ended up taking a larger sip and it did bring about a lot of heat. But then after that, I've slowed down. And I think I'm enjoying it.
Pagoda:But you know, I must say that just having had poured the whiskey earlier and then having it much, much later really opened it up. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Do think
Gizmo:that hour fifteen pagoda of time really, really allowed the spirit to kinda cool off in a way. You know? Yeah. That first sip was a lot harder. And I know that we're it's pallet adjustment.
Gizmo:I I know all those things, but I do think that the time benefited the scotch tonight, that it kind of chilled out the heat as it as it was going down?
Bam Bam:I'm sticking to my guns though, chef. It's still disruptive for me personally in smoking this particular cigar.
Gizmo:I will say I've been reaching less for the scotch. I'm reaching more for my seltzer.
Bam Bam:Right.
Chef:I think the scotch, the scotch notes are what is interfering here with the cigar. I think with tequila, this would be amazing.
Gizmo:A A rum. I actually think this is built
Chef:for rum.
Bam Bam:Cognac or an Armagnac as well.
Chef:Agree. Yes. Agree.
Bam Bam:But honestly, with this scotch, I could do an Exclusiva with this. I'd be comfortable with that. Anything in that world. Even possibly the Sonata. Not the aging room, but I would do the Sonata
Gizmo:with this.
Rooster:So Nicaraguan tobacco.
Pagoda:Yeah, I think so. But it comes down to the same question. You go out into the liquor store, you see the two bottles side by side, which one are you gonna pick? Are you gonna pay the $10 extra, right? The difference was $10
Gizmo:in total wine. Well it's generally the delta And now, to
Pagoda:just get something you really enjoy, which is more versatile for us.
Chef:All day, every day.
Bam Bam:Or almost a third and get an incredible rum. Exactly. Thank you.
Pagoda:Yes, absolutely.
Gizmo:Yeah, it's amazing how the rum, how we found some really budget rum that's just incredible.
Bam Bam:It's insane. It's wild.
Chef:I'd love this cigar with a not to sort of reposado right now.
Gizmo:That would
Bam Bam:be great. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But I
Gizmo:think just like the scotch, if we went if we went anejo on a tequila tonight, it might be too much. I think a repo or a blanco are right in the wheelhouse of this cigar. It's
Bam Bam:totally apparent.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. We have to talk about the story that we don't wanna talk about.
Chef:Oh, boy.
Gizmo:And I Yeah. We we talked about this last week.
Bam Bam:I don't wanna do it.
Gizmo:And we have to talk about it again because this might be the craziest, most ridiculous thing that I have ever seen a company do, especially a company that is nearing a billion dollars of revenue a year. I can't even believe I'm gonna say this.
Bam Bam:You have to think, and you haven't even told the audience what You have to think that this is gonna affect their business.
Gizmo:It's going to. There's no way it does. So let me lay it out for the listener here. Last week, we talked about a non government organization report that came out from a group called the Prisoners Defenders, a Madrid based human rights organization, and they have focused in on Cuba over the last year, year and a half, and have interviewed hundreds and hundreds, have gotten tons of accounts that Tabakuba is using prisoner you know, prisoners in Cuba to roll cigars that have been sent out for consumption worldwide. Now we posited last week that it was plausible but we weren't sure.
Gizmo:It seemed like ridiculous that this was even a conversation. We were sad to talk about it and we were blown away that
Bam Bam:it's Until?
Gizmo:Until the craziest thing I've ever seen a company do happened. So I guess Halfwheel, the great curator of cigar news on the Internet, love Halfwheel. I use them all the time. Shout out to those guys. Charlie Manato and Halfwheel, I guess, reached out to Habanos looking for a statement on this report.
Gizmo:I'm sure he didn't get expect to get anything back. I wouldn't expect to get anything back on this. This is a crazy story that a billion near billion dollar company is using prison laborers to make their product to then sell as a luxury good like Habanos let's be clear to the listener before I read this. Habanos views Cuban cigars as if it's Louis Vuitton, as if it's Rolex Oh, yeah. As if it's Hermes
Bam Bam:It's their
Gizmo:luxury. As it's Prada
Bam Bam:It's their luxury.
Gizmo:As if it's Gucci Correct. As if any of those brands that you kinda considered top of the top that is really designed for the most elite human beings in the world, that it was it was proposed and and there was evidence provided that they were using prison labor to make their cigars. Now this is ridiculous. I can't even believe I'm saying this. Habanos SA has confirmed that prison laborers are rolling their cigars.
Bam Bam:Nothing like revealing the secret sauce.
Gizmo:They sent a statement to Halfwheel, and I'm gonna read this in full as Charlie published this in full. According to reports from Tabakuba, the organization responsible for the cigar rolling industry, the main objective of this plan is to provide professional training to this group of inmates, enabling their future integration into the workforce. The participation in this program, Tabakuba adds, involves learning an artisanal trade in a sector in which Cuba is the global benchmark, not only because of its tobacco, but also due to the professionalism and expertise of those who work at it. Lastly, the industry points out that the participation in this program is voluntary, and inmates receive incentives and prison benefits for their work. Regarding production, Tabakuba concludes, quote, the essential purpose of the program is training and the production in these centers, they call them centers, not prisons, centers, which have the same resources and quality control standards as the factories is symbolic.
Gizmo:Mhmm. End quote. What a joke. So Yeah. Coming from the people that we don't believe have aged Fundadores ten years for their vintage 10 program For a billion dollar partner of theirs in Habanos S.
Gizmo:A, to put out this statement
Bam Bam:is For the world to see.
Gizmo:Unbelievable. Because given what everybody knows about Cuba, that it's run by a military cabal, that people there are suffering, they are not able to have their basic needs provided for food, shelter, clothing, and water. This is a an insane statement.
Bam Bam:So I I think we have to be a little careful. I'm all for if this is a form of prison reform, benefits to prisoners that are struggling in jail, There are programs here in The States that help them, but to do this for a product that's consumed worldwide, something that we love, it really just puts a taint on every cigar. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. On my entire collection and all the collections in this room, we've spent tens of thousands of dollars on our cigars. We're proud of our Cuban collection.
Bam Bam:When we're with our friends, they're enamored when you hand them a Cuban cigar, and it's a true Cuban cigar because they know you know how to source it. Now, when I'm with other people outside of this group that I wouldn't consider true cigar aficionados, they now all, with the limited knowledge that they have, look down on every Cuban cigar that I have in my collection. The perception is damaging for us.
Gizmo:A 100%. Worldwide. In this room, let's forget outside this
Bam Bam:room for Yeah, let's talk about the room.
Gizmo:Inside this room, it taints my perspective
Bam Bam:Of course.
Gizmo:Of every positive thing I've said about Cuban cigars or the industry or the you know, not the people that we've met there because I know the people that we met there are good people. They're not they're being directed from people above them, well above them. You know, there's there's no choices here. The the the idea that this is voluntary is such an asinine statement from this government organization. I mean, it is just so crazy that Habanos forwarded this to to Halfwheel.
Gizmo:The thing that that that happened here in my view is there was no dispute of any of the facts in this 45, '50 page report.
Bam Bam:So then hold on.
Gizmo:They simply said it was symbolic, Ben. They did not even deny.
Bam Bam:What do they gain from issuing that statement?
Gizmo:That's the crazy part. And I wanna share something here, Bam. So the guy who at Half Wheel, who's, again, I celebrate him collecting this information, this is the note he wrote regarding the statement that was sent just a few days prior by Habanos SA. He says, I cannot recall the last time I was more surprised at work than I was on Wednesday when I saw that Habanos SA's press department had produced a substantive reply to my question about a report last month that alleged that Tabakuba was using prison labors. Days later, I still don't understand why the company replied.
Pagoda:Yeah. It's crazy. No. But either way, you know, my thought with it is, hey. Listen.
Pagoda:It's a fraction of the cigars which are being rolled by them. We've been to factories.
Bam Bam:Do we know that?
Pagoda:Whether No. But we We've to factories.
Bam Bam:But do we know that?
Gizmo:No. The problem is, Pagoda, here's the problem.
Vance Taylor:Yeah.
Gizmo:Those cigars, okay, which now Habano Saseh has confirmed, we can argue voluntary or not. We all know it's not voluntary. Maybe the rich elite that are buying those crazy bijiges will say it's voluntary and not believe what's really going on
Bam Bam:in live in their own little
Gizmo:They live in a bubble. Nest. And I'm proud that we're anonymous and we don't have video that we could talk about this. Okay? The fact is that the cigars that are coming out of these prisons are not getting unique box codes.
Gizmo:They are being brought to the nearest sorting factory. Those cigars are being integrated into the pile of cigars that have been rolled inside that specific factory. They are being color matched
Bam Bam:And coded.
Gizmo:And Boxed. Box stamped with those codes on that document that I proudly put out three years ago, that now I wanna find out which ones have prisons in them and put asterisks on every one of those codes. I can't believe that what we're experiencing now is that any of us might have because it's indiscriminate, and they've clearly masked this program behind the fact that they're integrating them into the factory cigars. Each of us likely has cigars in our tower, even if it's one out of every box or one out of every two or 10 that have been rolled by involuntary prison labor in Cuban. Would you
Pagoda:describe I wouldn't say You know, my thought with it is the recent run has been great. The last few years I hate to think that moves nothing well.
Bam Bam:It's gotta be that
Pagoda:prison water. No. But what I'm saying is overall, the general consensus has been the last three or four years, all the new cigars which are coming out of Cuba have been great. They're not as ploughed.
Bam Bam:They're recent runs.
Gizmo:The program, listen, this program is believed to have started about a year, year and a half ago. The NGO says that. So that's well after the recent run that we've talked about quality happening. There's been less production. The thing I point to is that a few weeks ago, we talked about the first half of the year of Cuban cigars.
Gizmo:All of a sudden, magically, production and output increased at a pretty significant percentage. How did that happen? I wonder why. How did that happen? Labor that can't leave.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Pagoda:The guy they're working while in prison.
Chef:They they they solve the
Pagoda:world shortage. In India, they take them to mines and make them break rocks.
Bam Bam:Oh my god. Jesus.
Gizmo:They do. They do. Pagoda. And and here, I'm then buy those rocks and and for a $100 and smoke them?
Chef:And here, they make license plates. Yeah.
Gizmo:But let's let's not compare what's going on in Cuba to what's going on in Rhode Island.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Not fair.
Gizmo:It's completely It's a ridiculous comparison.
Bam Bam:It's ridiculous because of the the value that of the cigars that we covet and we consume as a luxury good.
Gizmo:The conditions of what's happening to the people that are not in prison in
Bam Bam:But also, like, the box codes matter. We wanna know where they're made. We know the factories. We visited the factories. We know the environments and the atmosphere.
Bam Bam:There's something to knowing where the cigar originated from
Gizmo:Yeah.
Bam Bam:That you're consuming and buying and spending a lot of money on. Right. So Now now, what you said earlier, how would they know? I don't think you'll ever be able to find out, kids.
Rooster:So is there a lack of torso doors in Cuba?
Gizmo:Well, then you think about that there's been a significant brain drain. The most talented, the most capable of the Cuban people They're desperately left that island. Correct. The ones who are left are either too young or not able to travel, or they do not have a skill set that allows them to get out of the country. If you wanna look at it effectively, everybody who's still in Cuba is in some sort of involuntary position that they can't leave.
Bam Bam:Sure.
Gizmo:So, again, I you know, this is gonna be an ongoing story. I can't imagine at this point that European Parliament is not going to take serious action again against Sabanos S. A.
Bam Bam:I don't see how global distribution will continue as it stands correct There's
Gizmo:no way.
Bam Bam:How does a nation allow that type of product to come in?
Gizmo:And what's crazy, Bam, is you can go after Habanos SA all you want. You can make them change hands, force a sale, etcetera. That's irrelevant because they're not the ones producing the cigars. They're the distributing sales and marketing component of the Cuban cigar industry. They're buying these cigars from Tabakuba, which is owned by the Cuban military.
Bam Bam:Correct. And now that product's out in the open
Rooster:market now. So what if tomorrow Habanos comes out and says, listen. We have stopped doing it, and yet they continue to do it.
Gizmo:Don't believe anything they say. Know.
Bam Bam:You don't know. So it's too bad we don't have a full quorium Yeah. I like that word. The way I say it, okay, In this room because I wanna hear other opinions. I wanna hear what Puba and Senator and Grinder have to say.
Gizmo:I will say I will say this is gonna be an ongoing story, so
Bam Bam:don't yeah. Don't worry about that. Story, but I want to hear the rest of the lizards. But then I would love to get email feedback about how they perceive their cigar collections. What are they thinking now?
Rooster:Well, I mean, the Habanos pricing the way it is currently, we're not buying a lot of Cuban
Bam Bam:cigars
Gizmo:That's
Bam Bam:like
Gizmo:we used correct.
Rooster:So now with this news coming out, it makes you even not want to buy even more.
Bam Bam:Are you intrigued now to reach for a cigar now from Cuba in your collection?
Rooster:I'm gonna smoke what I
Gizmo:have, you I
Rooster:mean, what are you gonna do? No, know.
Pagoda:There's a willing buyer out here. I bet.
Gizmo:Well, again. I think the NGO
Bam Bam:is Well, comes from a place where they're mining rocks, so you'll take them.
Gizmo:The NGO has confirmed that this is only the last year, year and a half. So we're not going back a bunch of years. The NGO has said that. That's not a Tabakuba thing.
Bam Bam:So his collection from 1910
Gizmo:is pretty good. Totally clean.
Bam Bam:You got it, Rooster.
Gizmo:You're good. So, anyway, we'll reporting on this story. I can't believe it. I'm I'm completely blown away that Habanos confirmed this, and I think the repercussions of this confirmation are going to be serious and significant over the next few months and year. So we will see what happens, but I would expect a lot of noise and a lot of disruption worldwide based on this report.
Pagoda:But, Gus, having said that, would you still purchase Cuban slabs?
Bam Bam:Was about to ask him the same question. What's your perspective now? How do you feel about what you have in your collection? Rooster will continue to smoke.
Gizmo:I I feel good about what I have in my collection because I have not really been buying over the last two years, honestly.
Bam Bam:Me
Gizmo:too. I've really slowed down Yeah. Since 2022, 2023 in my buying. So number one, I don't believe that I have much of it in my tower. As far as if I were to go and purchase new stuff I don't think I would definitely question that.
Bam Bam:I don't see you doing that.
Gizmo:Yeah. And I also standing in front of my tower since I've been reading this stuff, I'm looking at my cigars differently.
Bam Bam:It's a turnoff.
Gizmo:It's And that's a that's a genuine statement. And I say that with all due respect to everybody that we know in Cuba that we've met and that we love. There are really good people who run these factories.
Pagoda:Correct. Hey, guys. Don't get emotional. Be stoic.
Gizmo:Well said, Pagoda. But it's hard not to because I've been there 12 times. I think Ben's been there nine or 10 or whatever. All of us have been there. You guys have been there That's six, seven correct.
Gizmo:In the 12 times I've been there, I've met some of the most incredible people, and some of those people work in cigar factories. These are not the people that I'm yelling about and I'm frustrated with. No. It's the people well above them that They are in control of have no choice. They've got to go along.
Gizmo:Exactly right. So unfortunate here, folks. I know that this is not a laughs and joyous episode, the ones that we normally try to deliver to you guys, but I think this is an incredibly serious and important conversation to be having, and I think it will continue. So we will continue to report as as we learn more. Alright, boys.
Gizmo:It's time now to go do some positive stuff. We'll change the vibes. We're gonna go some positive stuff. We're gonna go to some listener email now. So this one is from Lizard Colony.
Gizmo:It says, Giz, ironically, I lit up a sir Winston from 2017. I paid $330 at the time for the box.
Bam Bam:What?
Gizmo:That's $10 a cigar.
Bam Bam:Oh my lord.
Gizmo:Before listening to your Milestone 200 episode broadcast, I had never thought of pairing champagne. He had always been a scotch guy and on occasion rum or bourbon. Obviously, we have a scotch with us tonight. I totally agree with the proposition to spend stock up on what you can as the price will always be going up. Cheers, lizard Colin.
Gizmo:So That's cool. That's a great that's great advice because as we've learned even with the, you know, new world non Cupid tobacco, the prices are never gonna go down.
Bam Bam:That's an incredible price.
Gizmo:They're going up. And this one I love, boys, was a thread on Reddit that someone had sent me, and and I was really blown away. And I wanna say thank you to the folks on on Reddit. Namely, the original poster here, narrow underscore necessary 6,300. Course, there's no names on Reddit, so I have I I read these crazy usernames.
Gizmo:His subject line was lounge lizards podcast question mark. He says, hey, brothers and sisters of the leaf. Just wondering if any other folks here like this podcast as much as I do. I always appreciate that they share their honest opinions on each stick. They don't let prejudice for or against brands from letting them give their true feelings and really seem to have a fantastic connection with each other and with cigars in general.
Gizmo:Listening to their latest episode now while smoking the chef's edition along with them, and I'm trying to make this a Tuesday evening ritual. So we gotta shout out this original poster here on Reddit because guess what, Bam? Yeah. He's gonna be our lizard of the week.
Bam Bam:Alright.
Gizmo:And anybody out there can win lizard of the week. And listen, this is a great way to do it. A really positive thread on Reddit. I can't
Bam Bam:I would like that guy's feedback on the chefs.
Gizmo:Yeah. I'm curious what what folks are thinking on the chefs. I have gotten a few emails about it. Some folks said that it was terrible the whole way through. Some folks saying they had a really nice experience the whole way through.
Gizmo:So it seems like it's an inconsistent experience for for our listeners.
Bam Bam:I needed to medicate myself after that one.
Gizmo:So I'm gonna go through some of the comments here. User recording set three thirty six thirty five sixty says, great podcast. And the OP replied, it makes me wanna take the trip to New Jersey in hopes of catching one of the guys there and saying hi. Replied again. They they genuine genuinely seem like good dudes, always a good laugh, and they're going back and forth.
Gizmo:They really do, and their lounge seems like a wonderful place with a real cast of characters. That is very true.
Chef:Oh, yeah.
Gizmo:Another one from spare time gamer 44. It's certainly in my podcast rotation. And then the OP replied, it's the d four of podcasts.
Vance Taylor:There we go.
Rooster:That's the best line.
Gizmo:That's the best line. Right?
Bam Bam:That's cool.
Gizmo:So cigars and cognac replied, great pod. Always tune in to the week's latest episode. Lizard Sean replied here, I had the pleasure to meet Gizmo and actually bought his first tower as I also live in New Jersey. We have stayed in touch and is a rare breed and that one of the most genuine human beings I've had the pleasure to meet. That's a nice compliment.
Bam Bam:That's also true.
Gizmo:As for the pod, it's definitely the best Really? And most well produced to have recently celebrated their two hundred two hundredth episode speaks volumes to the quality of what they do. I have learned so much on my cigar journey by smoking along with them. I wish Pooba was on more, but they all have busy lives. Well, not sure about Pagoda since he seems to work in a cigar lounge.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Correct.
Gizmo:Correct. Just don't tell his boss that. By listening to them, I've expanded my palate not only in cigars but by liquid pairings and also my travel experiences based on their trip to New Orleans. Having gone to the PCA conference where we just interviewed Vance Taylor as we shared in the second, third tonight. I took a trip down to New Orleans and visited some of the spots they mentioned, and it was incredible.
Gizmo:He was our lizard of the week last week, if you remember
Pagoda:Yes.
Gizmo:With a voice memo. I was fortunate to be lizard of the week and received a very generous cigar package. I highly recommend people to check it out. It wasn't if it wasn't for them, I would have never joined a lounge and met so many great individuals.
Bam Bam:That was for his wife's birthday. Right?
Gizmo:Correct. Yeah. Cheers. Long live lizard nation. Mountain Apartment 7 says cool story.
Gizmo:Being a fan of the podcast feels like you're a member of a secret society. Glad other feels the same. Then the OP replied, this is so great to know. I generally love to meet Gizmo and thank him for the great content. He seems like a nice dude.
Gizmo:Bam, your thoughts.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:I'm glad I'm glad senator's not here tonight. And, yeah, I work out of a cigar lounge a
Pagoda:few days
Gizmo:a few days a week too like Pagoda. Kind of fantastic, but also my ADHD makes it hard to focus. A lot of great content here, boys. A lot of great comments. We really, really appreciate everybody here.
Gizmo:It's it's really, really nice. I'm gonna give one kind of a not negative, but neutral content. A neutral comment. Three hundred two Grimlock says, it's an entertaining podcast. I've listened to every episode, and I think they've come a long way since the beginning.
Gizmo:I think Grindr is the most authentic reviewer out of the bunch. How interesting. There are several things that annoy me, though, like picking on rooster's age damn near every episode. Thank you.
Bam Bam:Hey. I'm not that far behind you.
Gizmo:That's what's funny. Let me say
Rooster:this for
Gizmo:the listener. That's what's
Rooster:funny for the listener.
Gizmo:The reason why the age jokes work is that Bam and Rooster are what? Four years apart?
Bam Bam:Something like that.
Rooster:I was born in '67.
Gizmo:Not '27. When were you born? '70. '70. So they're three years apart.
Gizmo:So all of these jokes about age, the reason why they work is they're literally they're literally the same age. He's got a full letter of hair. You guys are the same.
Bam Bam:A big pot belly on my I a I image.
Gizmo:He says give it a rest already.
Bam Bam:Alright.
Gizmo:Which we won't do because it's hilarious. Correct. And senator, the dude needs to get over himself. Oh. I believe it was the concerto episode when he said AJ Fernandez couldn't make a blend that could ever crack his rotation.
Bam Bam:He's not wrong. That's a correct statement. I'm sorry. But Really?
Gizmo:I gotta give chef his props for refusing ice and raiding the spirits for what they are. Nice. So thank you, Bunch of other great comments. The best cigar podcast out there. Easily the best pod podcast out there.
Gizmo:I really love it. They seem to have a very similar flavor preference to me, so I've had a lot of luck tasting the things they rate. A 10 across the board feels like I'm listening to a masterclass every time I put one on.
Bam Bam:That's cool.
Gizmo:So I I really wanna thank everybody who commented on this thread. I it was beautiful when someone sent it to me to read that. I shared it with the boys and very happy to share it tonight because I think as someone said here, you know, it does feel like a secret society, and it does for us as well. This is kind of our kind of our little universe we've created here, and we have so many folks out there around the world listening. So we really appreciate each and every one of you.
Gizmo:And congratulations again to lizard narrow underscore necessary 6300. I'm gonna send him a DM. He's our lizard of the week. Anybody can win lizard of the week. Bam.
Gizmo:All they have to do is send us a voice memo, an email, a comment on YouTube, Instagram, Spotify even, or create a thread on Reddit Correct. And put some notes up. So thank you for the positivity, folks. We really, really appreciate it, and we're glad that you're enjoying the pod. So, boys, we are coming to the end of our evening tonight with the stoic equanimity in courage and the Macallan 12 years age double cask single malt scotch whiskey.
Gizmo:Any thoughts on the pairing before we move to our ratings?
Bam Bam:I like each product individually.
Gizmo:Not together.
Bam Bam:Not together. Yeah. And I will say the McAllen has really grown on me. Really? Oh, yeah.
Bam Bam:Over the course of the night. I wouldn't have it with this cigar, but I'm well, we'll talk about it in our reading.
Gizmo:So I think the important thing that I'm certainly gonna do with what you just said in mind, Bam, is rate each of them for what they are, not necessarily how they work together. So I think that for the listener out there, that that is how we work. That's how we're gonna rate.
Bam Bam:So sometimes difficult to do.
Gizmo:It is. It is difficult to do.
Bam Bam:When you have an incredible pairing
Gizmo:It's hard not to get excited.
Bam Bam:Oh, yeah.
Gizmo:But I think both I I I think all of us have gotten pretty excited about this cigar tonight.
Rooster:Yeah. I mean, you had not had the cigar before, so you had no idea what this is about. Right? So it's hard to
Bam Bam:pair it. Correct.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. It's time to move into the formal liquor rating tonight on the Macallan 12 years age double cask single malt Scotch whiskey. Bam bam.
Bam Bam:You're up. So I was at a seven initially. It was a little hot, and I'm not I'm really no longer a Scotch guy. I used to be in my former life, but this has grown on me. I think I do love I get a hint of honey on the finish.
Bam Bam:I love the quality of the product because the long for me, a very long finish is indicative of a very well made spirit. I think this would pair beautifully with a more of a fuller bodied cigar like a Padron and even some Fuentes. I like it. I'm gonna be at a firm eight right now. Great honey notes, a little apple on the front, and it was kinda buttery for me at the in the middle of the tongue as my palate adjusted.
Bam Bam:Pretty good spirit.
Gizmo:Alright, chef.
Chef:Yeah. I'm at an eight. I think for what it is, I enjoy the spirit. Though this the you know, I love McCallan 12, but I love the sherry cask finish. I love the sweetness on that.
Chef:I love the the the what feels like a more balanced finish for me that leans slightly sherry forward. But this one here, it's it's still very scotch. Like, the scotch is very present and it interferes with the cigar. So for the pairing, I I, you know, I think there's other things that pair better with the cigar for sure. But, you know, sipping it on its own, I would do it, especially coming into the cooler months.
Chef:But I'm with them. You know, I'm there's tequilas and rums and cognacs, Mhmm. Especially in the cooler months that I would much rather sip than this. But it's a serviceable drink. It's a respected respectable drink.
Bam Bam:It's very well made.
Chef:So and, yeah, it is well made. You know, new branding aside Mhmm. The spirit itself is still tasty. So it's an eight.
Gizmo:I think you guys are crazy. For me, it's a nine. If I were to put if I were to have the black box in here, it'd be a 10.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Awesome.
Gizmo:I really enjoyed and I was surprised by this spirit tonight. I thought it was delicious. I love that the price is coming down back into the sixties. I think that's a fair price. You know, it was much more balanced than I remember.
Gizmo:It was much more flavorful than I remember. I remember thinking when I had this, if it sat next to the sherry cask and I was sipping both at the same time, the sherry cask would blow its doors off.
Bam Bam:Yep.
Gizmo:I really don't think that's the case anymore. Now for that $10 like Pagoda was pointing out, I would reach for the sherry cask. I would buy the the sherry oak finish.
Bam Bam:But here's a question.
Gizmo:I was really impressed.
Bam Bam:Would you reach for this bottle and buy it? I would. You would?
Gizmo:I would. Absolutely. I think at a 9, I think it's a I'm
Bam Bam:surprised by that answer.
Gizmo:No. But let's say I didn't have the sherry oak available. If I have both, I'm gonna go for the sherry oak. But to me, that's a 10. The cherry oak finishes a 10.
Gizmo:Cherry oak
Chef:finishes a 10.
Gizmo:Yeah. This is not two steps behind it. It's one step behind it.
Bam Bam:Look. I know we've got another rating coming up, but because we're also deep into the rum and tequila lines now, you'd have to think that you're gonna reach for those two spirits above this, with one exception. I've had a glass of Macallan 12 maybe a week and a half ago, the Sherry cask. It was delicious. It kinda makes me wanna get a bottle of that and revisit that and kinda stay with that for a while while I'm going back and forth with my rum and my tequilas.
Bam Bam:I wouldn't do it with this bottle.
Gizmo:But I'm not comparing this to rum or tequila. I'm rating this on what it is to
Chef:I just think our palates have shifted
Gizmo:from But I'm what I'm saying when I
Bam Bam:I don't think you'd go out and buy this bottle.
Gizmo:When I sipped this tonight, I was really impressed with it. And if I was in a position where I needed some scotch and it was McCallan versus some other stuff, I would absolutely buy this.
Bam Bam:That sounds No. Like an
Gizmo:But if I had the Sherry cask there, which I think is a 10
Bam Bam:It is a 10.
Gizmo:I would buy that. This is one step below it. Right. I I think it used to be a seven or an eight.
Bam Bam:Interesting.
Gizmo:I think now it's a nine. I'm very happy with my nine. Okay. I had no ice in mind, no water. It was very smooth from the first sip.
Gizmo:Really impressed with it, so I'm at a nine. Pagoda. Okay.
Pagoda:You make some really good points. I'm at an eight, but I think I started at a seven initially. Mhmm. But you know, after it opened up, after I sat down for a really long time, I really, really enjoyed it. I think, but either way, I come back to the same thing that if I'm in a liquor store and for $10 more I can get something, you know, which I know I really, really love, it's very difficult for me to be able to go and purchase this at just $10 cheaper.
Pagoda:Yeah. I I think if the variance was a bit different in price, maybe it could have gotten a nine from me. But my perspective is I did enjoy it. So that's why it's a strong eight. Eight is a recommend.
Bam Bam:Eight's a great score.
Pagoda:Yeah. Is. It's a really good score. And for me, I think I felt that this was so pronounced even in the dark chocolate flavor profile. The finish, yeah.
Pagoda:The finish was there. I think even when I was smelling the aromas, could get a whiff of it. It's really, really way better than I've always considered the double cask. That's
Gizmo:where I'm at.
Pagoda:Yeah. And you know, if we would have done the blue bottle, I think, you know, even about a year, year and a half ago, it would have been much lower for me.
Gizmo:I agree. It'd it'd at least be 10 or 15 points in the aggregate. It would be it would be 100.
Chef:I do agree that the original double cast that I've had of Macallan for me was a seven. Yeah. This is
Gizmo:on a good run right
Senator:now.
Gizmo:It is a run.
Bam Bam:So look, the one major merit for this is the finish is exquisite and so long. Yeah. There's value there. Yep. And regardless of the price, I think honestly, I think an eight is a perfect score.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. The formal liquor rating tonight on the Macallan twelve years aged double cask, single malt scotch whiskey is an 8.3.
Bam Bam:And that's a good score.
Pagoda:And that's a great score.
Gizmo:Say So let's compare that to the other Macallan we've done on the podcast. On episode 11, we did the Macallan 12, the Sherry Oak. We didn't rate it. Then on episode 64, we did the 15 years age Sherry Oak, McCallan, 6.5.
Bam Bam:Wasn't good. Nope.
Gizmo:Then we did the McCallan 12, Sherry cask, the Sherry Oak cask on episode 77, scored a 9.8, 15 points higher than this. Correct. So this at an 8.3 is definitely a step below the Sherry Cask. Do I think it's 15 points? No.
Gizmo:I think probably 10 is more accurate.
Bam Bam:But a fair
Gizmo:score. I think that's a fair score for tonight.
Bam Bam:It's a fair score
Pagoda:for tonight.
Gizmo:Alright, boys. It's time now to move into the formal lizard rating on the stoic equanimity in courage. Bam, you're up.
Bam Bam:Alright. I'm ready. Rooster, you're up.
Rooster:I I mean, I I think this cigar is another home run by the combination of Vance Taylor and Klas Kellner. The blend is spot on. I think it's a little bit of a fuller expression of the original release of the stoic cigar. This cigar is definitely it's fuller, it's blended well. The notes, it was earthy with a little bit of citrus and cocoa throughout the cigar.
Rooster:And it actually did pick up in strength in the last third. Really enjoyed the cigar from the beginning till the end. The only knock that I have is my cigar was a little bit difficult to draw. So I did cut it again. It helped, but not to the point that I would like it.
Rooster:And the other slight knock is about the band. It was a little bit hard to peel off. It peeled off a little bit of the wrapper.
Bam Bam:But that's incidental,
Chef:the band.
Rooster:Yeah. Yeah. So for that, I think the blend is a 10. But for me, I mean tonight, the cigar, the way the draw was, I'm giving it a nine. But the blend is spot on.
Rooster:And I think maybe if I had a different cigar, it might have been a 10. So but for that reason, I'm at a nine.
Gizmo:Alright. Alright. Pagoda. Yeah.
Pagoda:This is an interesting one for me. I you know, I'll be very candid about this. I feel it's between eight and nine, but I'm gonna round up to a nine because my second half did smoke much better.
Bam Bam:What the heck?
Pagoda:The first half, the draw was really, really snug. And, you know, for me, I love easy smoking cigars, which are, you know, where the draw is, you know, reasonably open. But on the other hand, like when you took a draw forcefully, you got a really good smoke output.
Rooster:It was a bit of a struggle.
Pagoda:Was a bit of a struggle. It So hold on, can
Bam Bam:I ask you both a question? Would a perfect draw have helped you?
Pagoda:No, not really. I just think that maybe this particular cigar that we smoked might have been just wrapped a bit tightly.
Bam Bam:Maybe, yeah, understood, but that's what a perfect So draw is that's another for me, it's like an almost an incidental I know that it's a performance issue. But if you had a perfect draw, I would love to hear your comments at another time if you're able to take that tool, if it was tight, and see how it performs for you.
Pagoda:No. But still, you're using a perfect draw. Would you give a cigar a 10 with a perfect draw?
Bam Bam:That's a good question.
Pagoda:Right. I think Good question. So for this particular cigar, I thought that was the case. From a flavor perspective, spot on, right? Spot on.
Pagoda:I think
Rooster:I think the flavor in the blend is a 10.
Pagoda:Is a 10. The other thing what I found is towards the end, and maybe because I'd rolled it up quite a bit to really enjoy the second half, I had to relight it at least a couple of times towards the end of the cigar. And I think that's why I'm just knocking off a point of it. But in terms of overall the experience, it's been relatively good.
Rooster:I think it is still a very high recommend, and I would I would go out and
Bam Bam:buy relatively Multiple boxes.
Gizmo:It is.
Pagoda:Yeah. It's not it's not the best. It's I've had better cigars for a 10.
Gizmo:I'll be honest. I I couldn't disagree more. I I was sitting here tonight and and I know we had that deep discussion about the Habanos issue and all that stuff, but I literally had this moment where I said to myself, how lucky are we? Right? Like, this cigar, I I can't believe how much I enjoyed it.
Gizmo:For me, from the first light, from the cut to the last moment and I nubbed it at about a half an inch, the cigar was perfect. I am completely blown away. It's almost as Klaus Kellner is in my brain blending each of these cigars for me. This is an absolute gem. I love how it complements the other stoic cigar.
Gizmo:I think it's just the big brother to that. Has a little more oomph, certainly a lot more flavor, and and it's just a a different application from stoic and from class and I'm really, really impressed with it. The flavor was off the charts. I mean, if we were to look at that flavor wheel of all the different flavors we could talk about as cigar smokers and all the different categories, It's almost like we hit each major category tonight. I think all of us called out several different flavors.
Gizmo:Everybody was getting some of the same stuff, some different stuff. We were hitting, hitting, hitting. I I just cannot get enough of what Stoix is putting out. I'm really impressed. I will be ordering a box of these tonight.
Gizmo:I am just beyond blown away for a $12 cigar that it can deliver this much flavor. And again, I say, how lucky are we? This is a brilliant cigar and I feel great. I'm gonna sleep like a baby tonight. I'm gonna have a great day tomorrow because of this cigar and this conversation tonight.
Gizmo:So boys, it's a 10 for me. Correct. Chef.
Chef:Spagoda says ten ten wins. Yes. This cigar is a 10 for me. Just right off the bat, before we even lit it, just just taking the aroma in off off the foot and the wrapper, it was intense and pleasant. Lots of boneyard, a good amount of earth, you know, and then you light it up and you're getting this.
Chef:I'm sorry, even before the light on the cold draw, you're getting this bright raspberry currant notes. Yeah. Which we love in cigars. And and it's a welcome departure because a cigar is oftentimes earthy and cedar forward or wood like and baking spice and then to just have a highlight of a bright fruit in there. It's for me, it's such a welcome addition to what we fought to what we found on the flavor wheel today.
Chef:And this thing just kept going. It kept going all the way through the end. You know, it picked up a little bit in strength. The one thing I did notice on my my cigar, that last third, the ash, the quality of the ash changed where the first two thirds I just had this razor sharper, really crisp
Pagoda:It got flaky.
Chef:Then towards that, yeah, that final third, it started getting a little flaky and it was having a hard time building a good ash. But with that aside, the flavor just never stopped and it never got bitter. It never I never had any harsh tar delivery. It was just it was phenomenal. I want another one.
Chef:So it's a 10.
Bam Bam:Yeah. Me too. I would like another one right now.
Chef:Yep. I'm with you.
Bam Bam:And for that reason, I'm also at a 10. Alright. The paramount experience I got with this cigar was that bakery good. That scone or shortbread with a fruit in it. I got a little banana, some tapioca at the end, like a yolk a yogurt of some kind, but that fruit, that bakery good with fruit was pervasive from beginning to end.
Bam Bam:I was down to a quarter of an inch, and it was just fantastic. Again, I love the stoic. This is, as we said earlier, a bolder expression of that. I love the tandem. I could see smoke in both of those in one sit and have a really
Gizmo:interesting One before dinner, one after dinner?
Bam Bam:Yeah. Well, I would definitely do the stoic before this guy. And then this could be like after meal, or if it's a sit for over three or four cigars, I'd probably do these two and then have to decide what I'm smoking after because it's such a delicious experience. 10. Alright, boys.
Gizmo:The formal lizard rating tonight on the stoic equanimity in courage is a 9.6.
Bam Bam:Excellent. Brilliant. Brilliant cigar. Honestly score.
Gizmo:It's great score.
Bam Bam:It's a pretty good score.
Gizmo:Pretty damn good score. So let's compare that to the stoic courage, the first release from stoic. We did it on episode 177. Of we gave that a 10 if you remember. All around.
Gizmo:That was the blind episode. We had no idea what we were smoking. None of us had ever heard of stoic, and that was a real, real eye opener for us.
Bam Bam:And Lizard Henry Walter.
Gizmo:Lizard Henry, we gotta thank him. And, of course, Matt at Summit Cigars and Vance Taylor who shared that wonderful conversation with us at PCA that we were able to pass on to everyone listening tonight. I hope you enjoyed it, and we really, really appreciate Vance sitting down with us at PCA.
Bam Bam:Klaus Kellner's genius.
Gizmo:And Klaus Kellner, he's killing it two tens and a 9.6 so far.
Chef:Oh, And if Senator was here, it would have been a 9.8.
Bam Bam:I think so.
Gizmo:I agree with you.
Bam Bam:And I also think Pagoda and sorry. I think Pooba and Grindr would have given us nines, tens.
Pagoda:I think Grindr would definitely give it a 10
Bam Bam:with Oh, I
Pagoda:so. With the barnyard.
Gizmo:And I think both of you would have given it a 10 had you not experienced
Rooster:the It was a minor,
Bam Bam:it was a yeah,
Gizmo:yeah. I just wanna
Rooster:say again, like it's a minor performance issue. It's just for that reason we had to take
Bam Bam:it back. But performance matters. Sure.
Gizmo:It does.
Bam Bam:It does matter.
Rooster:I mean, we're rating the cigar for what it is,
Bam Bam:for what
Rooster:experience that you're having tonight. But the flavor and the blend, I mean, it's exceptional.
Chef:And you know what? This speaks volumes to the blend because this was not aided at all by the spirit that we had.
Gizmo:Yeah, I mean, you guys were arguing that the spirit was kind of taken away.
Chef:Yeah, there was no excitement you know, that we could contribute
Gizmo:to the It's important to compartmentalize when we can. That's true. If gonna be an anchor on the other, and I don't think it was. No. It's a great spirit, but maybe in the pairing it's an anchor that it doesn't complement.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:We have to compartmentalize that and give it a fair rating. I think
Bam Bam:Yeah, good at the agreed.
Rooster:And the cigar is very well balanced. Absolutely.
Bam Bam:Absolutely. Beautifully made.
Chef:Yeah, we've had cigars that deliver different flavors and they felt disjointed, right? I think the chef's edition was one of those. This is the complete opposite and this what the chef's edition should smoke like and taste like.
Gizmo:Yeah, and for a $60 cigar that performed like it did in that last third, all of us walked out of here like we had been to a funeral. Was
Bam Bam:brutal. Was very
Gizmo:sad. Brutal.
Chef:I'd love the cigaroni churchill. I agree. I would love just more of it for sure.
Gizmo:Which you can get in the wisdom, which is 48 by seven. So check that out. Alright, folks. A great night tonight. On the Macallan 12 years age double cast single malt scotch whiskey, we had an 8.3.
Gizmo:And on the stoic equanimity in courage, we had a 9.6. Of course, we have to thank our lizard of the week from Reddit. I don't know if we've ever had a Reddit lizard of the week. Nope. From narrow underscore necessary, his username there.
Gizmo:We really appreciate him putting up that thread and prompting a great conversation about the lizard podcast. We always love when folks are out there sharing what we're doing, and, you know, we we really appreciate it. Of course, we have to thank our sponsor, Fabrica Five.
Bam Bam:Correct.
Gizmo:They make great cigars in this time of upheaval and unrest Yeah. And insanity and difficult to get and pricing and everything else going on with Cupid cigars, you gotta try Fabrica five.
Bam Bam:Such a great option to have.
Gizmo:It is. The holidays are coming up.
Bam Bam:Truly clutch.
Gizmo:It's time to load up.
Chef:And you know what? I love Grimlock's comment on that thread. I also love his username. I'm a big transformer fan.
Bam Bam:About about senator. Having to
Gizmo:get a senator? Getting off his high horse or whatever it was? Alright, boys. A great night tonight. What a delicious cigar.
Gizmo:Again, congratulations to Vance. Thanks to thanks to him again
Vance Taylor:Yes.
Gizmo:For sharing his time with us. We really appreciate it. And Klaus Kellner as well, who we shared that interview a couple weeks ago. Check that out if you haven't heard it, and we'll see everybody next week. Hope you enjoyed this episode.
Gizmo:Thanks for joining us. You could find our merch store and ratings archive at our brand new website, loungelizardspod.com. That's loungelizardsp0d.com. Don't forget to leave us a rating and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. If you have any comments, questions, do you wanna reach out, say hello, tell us what you're smoking?
Gizmo:Email us. Hello at loungelizardspod.com. You can also find us on Instagram at lounge lizards pod. We really appreciate your time, and we'll, we'll see you next week.