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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson:
Hello, friends. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host, Meredith Brock.
Meredith Brock:
Hi, Kaley. Today our listeners are in for a real treat. They'll get to hear from our friend Jennifer Dukes Lee, who is an incredible communicator, who personally I adore deeply, and she's here to talk about those seasons of life that maybe we don't want to talk about. And that is those times when we say, "I just can't keep doing this. I am done. I've hit my wall, closed the curtains. I'm going to bed; I can't get up." And it is a powerful teaching.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. For sure. I mean, it definitely connects so deeply with something that we're actually starting to study here at Proverbs 31. And so Jennifer talks a lot about being honest with God. And then can I tell you guys a secret? Our next study that we're doing is on the book of Lamentations, and it's about how to process and express your emotions in a biblical way. And I think we need to learn how to do that because when we're in those dark seasons, sometimes we don't feel like being totally honest with God; it's OK. We think we'll offend Him, but something Jennifer taught us is that learning to communicate with God is an art and it's a practice, and the book of Lamentations can help us learn how to do that. And I know probably some of you are thinking, Wait, Lamentations? For real, Kaley? I avoid that book because it's depressing, and I don't want to be any more sad than I already am.
I get it. I have avoided that, too, but I'm also here to be the friend, and Meredith is the friend too, to challenge you into stepping up to the plate and just try reading through Lamentations. It's part of God's Word, and it's there for a reason. And so to help you say yes, I convinced our First 5 friends to let me give you some of the content for free. So if you click the link in the show notes and enter your email, this is what you're going to get. The opening letter that explains what you're going to learn in the study on Lamentations, the Old Testament Bible timelines of the book of Lamentations, because context is king in the Bible study, a page that explains the word “lament” in biblical terms, plus the first three days of the study. Again, all that is linked in the show notes; I highly encourage you guys to get it and let it be a tool that you use to dig deep and finally open the book of Lamentations.
Meredith Brock:
That's right, and it's so pivotal for us to remember that Scripture is not just written for other people; it's written for us today to find the answers to our deepest, most complicated questions. And I think there's answers in Lamentations.
Kaley Olson:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Meredith Brock:
All right, friends, let's go here ... from our friend Jennifer.
Kaley Olson:
Well, friends, we are so excited to welcome a good friend to the show today,
Jennifer Dukes Lee. We're so glad you're here, Jennifer.
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
This is fun. I love P31. You guys are great, and this podcast is awesome, so thanks for having me. Yay!
Meredith Brock:
Well, we are so happy to have you here. Jennifer is a dear friend to Proverbs 31 Ministries and is joining us today from her family farm in Iowa, where she and her husband raise crops, pigs and, most importantly, their family.
Kaley Olson:
Of course.
Meredith Brock:
When she's not wearing her farm-girl coveralls, she's busy speaking at conferences or events and writing books, like her newest book that I adored. I personally went through it, which was Stuff I'd Only Tell God.
Kaley Olson:
What a cool title.
Meredith Brock:
I know, great title and honestly was such a good tool for self-discovery for me, so I highly, highly recommend it. But, Jennifer, before we jump into what you're here to talk about with us today, I do have a question for all my curious listeners. Can you tell us something interesting about raising pigs that maybe our audience would be surprised by? I just think they might be curious. Not many of us are pig farmers, so fill us in, Jennifer.
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
Oh, what story should I tell? Oh, my goodness. OK, I got one for you. So we have pig barns, where we raise pigs from a very tiny stage all the way to adulthood — I guess you could call it.
Meredith Brock:
So cute.
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
But when they come as babies, they come on a school bus with all the seats ripped out, and then that back fire exit is opened up to a ramp that goes into the barn, and it is so hilarious to see dozens and dozens of little baby pigs scurrying out the fire exit of a school bus. It's surreal.
Meredith Brock:
I —
Kaley Olson:
That's so cute.
Meredith Brock:
— Need to see this.
Kaley Olson:
I was about to say I'm going to need you next time to remember to pull out your phone and do an Instagram story.
Meredith Brock:
Yes, please.
Kaley Olson:
So that we can see the pig race. That's adorable.
Meredith Brock:
That might be the cutest thing I've ever heard.
Kaley Olson:
I feel like that brought me the joy that I needed this morning. That's amazing, Jennifer. We did mention earlier your new book, Stuff I'd Only Tell God; what a cool title. Meredith loved it. Obviously we're excited to hear more about what you're going to share from your book today, but when you came to us and were like, "I want to be on the podcast; I want to talk about this book," we were like, “Yes, let's talk about what you're going to talk about.” And you pitched the idea about our listeners, where they are in a dark place when God seems really far away. And man, I feel like that's something so many of us wrestle with, and I would love to just sit back now — for me and Meredith to sit back — and let you teach us. So why don't you go take it away?
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
Thank you so much. Let's do this. So a while back, a really dear friend sent me a message on Snapchat, and before I opened the message, I imagined that the snap would likely include something silly or lighthearted, like those funny filters that your friends will put on or maybe a video of one of her hilarious kids doing what hilarious kids do. But when I opened the message, that is not what I saw. Instead, the snap was an image of her darkened living room. The curtains were drawn, and there was just this small sliver of light peeking through the gap, and I knew immediately that something was wrong with my friend. Over the top of the picture were words that she had typed out, and this is what she wrote, "I'm trying to pull myself together, but I just can't." And I clicked on the reply button, and my thumbs were hovering over the letters on my mobile phone keyboard, and I was mentally searching for the right words for her.
What should I say to encourage someone having a hard day like that? What should I say to someone trying to pull herself together? And so I prayed, God, help me find the words. Because of the way I'm wired and because I'm a product of the culture in which I've been raised, I immediately thought of all the ways that a person could try to pull herself together. Maybe I could offer her a few healthy action steps mixed in with some positive "You’ve got this" affirmations to give her a little bit of hope. I thought about telling her to open the curtains and let God's light shine into the room. I also thought about reminding her of all the times that she had courageously risen up in the past, in the midst of struggle and she had done that; none of those things would've been the worst things to say because we all need light.
We all need reminders that we're stronger than we give ourselves credit for. But I didn't say any of those things when I finally responded because right then, I remember the truth that I need to know on a hard day. And maybe you need to know it too. You actually don't have to pull yourself together on a hard day. In fact, sometimes you can't. Sometimes all you can do is lift your chin to the sky and say to God, Send help. And that is enough. We tend to put a ton of pressure on ourselves to slap on a pretend smile and march forward even amid the pain we didn't cause, the heartbreak we didn't see coming, or the grief that we can't quite move past.
You don't have to do that. You are allowed to break down. You are allowed to weep. You are allowed to cancel plans. You are allowed to lament. You are allowed to take a nap. You are allowed to simply be. Now I get the motivational mindset behind reminding each other, "Hey, you've got this." But the truth is we don't got this. Only God does. Through scripture, God reminds us that we don't have to rely on our own strength to pull ourselves out of a funk. Instead, Jesus repeatedly offers comfort along these lines, "I'll sit with you in the mess." Through scripture, we are also reminded that we can get brutally honest with God about what we're feeling, how we're hurting, how we aren't really sure that we can pull it together on a hard day. We can sit in our darkened rooms, curtains drawn, with our tear-washed faces, and lift our broken hearts up to Him as if to say, Can You fix this?
We see that kind of honesty in the book of Lamentations. And so this book is written in poetic form, but it's not the kind of happy-go-lucky poetry that you'd find in a children's book. Instead, it is poetry written in the rhythm and style of ancient Jewish funeral songs. The author was Jeremiah, whom scholars describe as the “weeping prophet.” He wrote the words of lamentations after Jerusalem had been destroyed by Babylon. The people had been tortured, taken captive and even killed. Jeremiah wrote from the depths of this kind of grief. Listen to his words from Lamentations 2:11, "My eyes fail from weeping, I am in torment within; my heart is poured out on the ground because my people are destroyed, because children and infants faint in the streets of the city" (NIV). What sorrow, what grief, and also, what honesty before God!
We witnessed this kind of honesty again with David in the psalms. When you read David's words, it's like you're reading a private journal. And as a journaler myself, that gives me permission to get really honest with God in my prayers and in my written lament to the Lord. When I can't find the words to write in my own prayer journals or say out loud, I can read David's words. His psalms have blessed the lives of countless millions, giving us language for our deepest anguish. But when David wrote them, he was simply crying out to God with an honest heart and with the heart of lament. In his psalms, David asks questions like, "How long? Lᴏʀᴅ" (Psalm 6:3, NIV), or this one, "Will you forget me forever?" (Psalm 13:1, NIV), or this one, "Why have you forsaken me?" (Psalm 22:1, NIV).
These questions from David are not polite. They are raw and gritty. They reveal the truth that no topics are unsuitable for discussion with God. And they remind us that no, we don't have to pull ourselves together on a hard day. One of David's psalms worth noting is Psalm 34. So it's traditionally believed that David wrote that particular psalm while he was in a cave, a very dark place, not unlike my friend's darkened living room. And during that time, David was fleeing from King Saul, who was pursuing him out of jealousy and a desire to kill him. If anybody was having a hard day, it was David. David had served Saul faithfully, had obeyed God, and had fought against God's enemies. But here he was being hunted down by Saul and literally not knowing if he'd lived to see another day. In that moment, David found himself in the cave at a dark, despairing place, but at least for the time being, he was safely tucked away.
This cave was his hiding place. And while he was there, he started writing. And the psalm he wrote reflects David's trust in God's protection and deliverance even in the midst of difficult circumstances. Let me read a brief section of Psalm 34 to you, and as you listen, pay attention to who is doing the heavy lifting. Pay attention to who is doing the delivering, the protecting and the comforting. I think you'll quickly see that these verses are ones that remind us that God's got this even when we don't.
So let's start in verse 4: "I sought the Lᴏʀᴅ, and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears. Those who looked to him are radiant; their faces are never covered with shame. This poor man called, and the Lᴏʀᴅ heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles. The angel of the Lᴏʀᴅ encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them. Taste and see that the Lᴏʀᴅ is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him. Fear the Lᴏʀᴅ, you his holy people, for those who fear him lack nothing. The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lᴏʀᴅ lack no good thing" (Psalm 34:4-10, NIV). We're going to skip a few verses and go to verse 17, "The righteous cry out, and the Lᴏʀᴅ hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. The Lᴏʀᴅ is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lᴏʀᴅ delivers him from them all" (Psalm 34:17-19, NIV).
And so right now for those listening, if you're in a dark cave of your own, imagine David Snapchatting you some of those words from his own dark cave, letting you know that you are not alone, even if it feels like it. Words from Psalm 34, like “the eyes of the Lᴏʀᴅ are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry” (Psalm 34:15, NIV). He hears your cry. Or this, “the Lᴏʀᴅ hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles” (Psalm 34:17, NIV). Not once does David say to pull yourself together. All of the pulling comes from God, and so does all of the comfort. Indeed, God's got this, not you. That's exactly what I've needed to know in my own life.
Before we wrap up this teaching, let me tell you about a Thursday night — one very pain-filled night, when I was standing in the dimly lit sanctuary of my country church in Iowa. So I had come there to pray with a few friends due to a really overwhelming set of circumstances in my life. And suddenly I felt such a deep sense of panic that I thought I couldn't breathe, and it was an anxiety attack, and it was an anxiety attack. I'd never had one before, but I knew what was happening when it hit me.
I was nearly knocked off my feet by the overwhelming sense of panic that I felt even in the solitude of God's house; pulling myself together was not an option in that moment. The only option was to cry out to God, to stand before Him as the panic washed over me, as friends stood beside me, waiting it out with me. And I remember gripping the wooden pew in front of me while my heart raced and my throat closed around itself. I felt despair and a complete loss of control. I could not find the words to pray, but years of thoughts and meditation on God's Word let me know for sure that God was there. When I couldn't breathe, I remembered who God said I was and I remembered who God said He was. When I couldn't breathe, it was as if God was breathing for me.
He breathed scripture into me. God breathes scripture. Bible verses formed like a line of defense in my mind, pushing back enemy forces. In my mind, I recalled God's promises — things like, Don't be afraid where I am with you always; my peace I give you; nothing can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord. In that panicky moment, I found some peace. I was unable to fully grab hold of full peace because peace felt slippery right then, quite honestly. But even so, I felt a peace coming on based on the trustworthiness of my Father; I could believe that I would find peace again one day because God does not lie. For months after that anxiety attack, I prayed through tears for my circumstances to change. Years have passed now — years — and the circumstances are almost identical to that particular situation.
God didn't answer my prayer to change my circumstances, but He did something else. He changed me through my lament, through my leaning on Him, through His Word, through giving me the space I needed to feel what I needed to feel ... through giving me the space to feel what I needed to feel. I felt permission to simply be. I felt permission not to have to pull myself together on my hardest days. So back to that Snapchat exchange with my friend ... when I sent a message back to her, that's exactly what I told her. She could simply be; she didn't have to pull herself together on a hard day.
And you know what? The same is true for you. To those of you listening today, are you in a dark place right now? Maybe your dark place is a chronic illness, a breakup, a family crisis, emotional frustration or depression that just won't let up. If that's you, know that you are not alone; like Jeremiah demonstrates in Lamentations, you can lament and weep and grieve before the Father. And like David reminded us, we can know that even as we weep, the Lord is close to the brokenhearted. If you can't pull yourself out of that dark place you're in right now, maybe you actually don't need to do that today. Try this instead, invite Jesus to come into the room with you, and let Him just hold you.
Kaley Olson:
Wow, Jennifer, what an encouraging reminder and maybe a refreshing idea to not have to get out of it but invite Jesus into it. I know it's so simple, but like you said in your message, you have to remember that in the moment because you don't have the words to say to be able to get out of it. So thank you for just what this message is going to do for somebody who really needs it. I have a question that's kind of like a juxtapositional question. I just made up a word there, but there you go.
Earlier you mentioned in your teaching about being honest with God, and I have a question about that. Because if God sees our lying down and our getting up and He knows our thoughts, is it that we're being honest with God or is it that we're being honest with ourselves? Can you unpack that a little bit because it confuses me sometimes to think about, Wait a minute, if God knows everything —
Meredith Brock:
Why do I need to tell Him this?
Kaley Olson:
And maybe lean into this, because I think at the end, you said lament changes you, but what is it about us getting honest with God even though He knows everything that really changes it? Is that the benefit of it? Is it our honesty?
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
I think it's both. And I think that is such a great question. One that I've pondered myself, like God already knows my thoughts; He already knows my ways. He already knows how this is going to all turn out, but relationships inherently involve communication. We are made in His image, and He made us to converse with each other with body language, with hugs, with conversation. So when my husband comes in the door, he can tell probably within seconds how I'm feeling and what my day might have been like because we know each other really well.
So I wouldn't actually have to tell him completely. He would know, but what kind of relationship would we really have if I didn't say, "Hey, this is what went down today"? Obviously, he's not God. He doesn't have a way to read my thoughts, but he knows me really, really well. And I think that God just desires us to come to Him with our lament and with our brokenheartedness. And I really believe David, in the psalms, models that so well, giving us words to do that, and shows us what it looks like to be honest before Him. And that level of honesty brings us into a deeper intimacy with the Lord. Just as honesty, vulnerability, authenticity and communication bring us into deeper relationship and intimacy with people.
Meredith Brock:
I love that. The truth is that ... not like that's our triune God, right?
Kaley Olson:
Yeah.
Meredith Brock:
He's such a picture of that. I'm just sitting here, Jennifer, while you were talking, and just reflecting on seasons of my life where I felt like I faced something that I was like, I can't do this. I've hit the wall, if you will, and how it's looked differently in my life, whether responding to it in a healthy or an unhealthy way in a surrendered or unsurrendered way, if you will. And I'm just sitting here thinking, reflecting on the places that I have gone to that moment that you described in that little church with your friends, where you do break and you acknowledge, your body gives in, and you have the panic attack, and you acknowledge, I can't do it. I'm not strong enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not put together enough to get through this, to pull this thing off, fill in the blank, whatever we might be doing.
Really what you're doing is acknowledging our deep need for a Savior and saying, God, I need You to save me. And when we do that, it's almost like we're putting ourselves in our rightful place and putting God in His. And as I heard you talking, and I think I might be putting words in your mouth, so I need you to tell me if I am saying this accurately for the circumstance that you were facing, but you said even as of today that circumstance hasn't changed. And that moment of surrender, what has that looked like over the years and I think back to those moments, like that moment where you broke with your friends in prayer and your body just said, I'm done. I can't hold this in any longer?
Have those emotions gotten less intense over the years as you've walked through whatever this dark circumstance is that just doesn't seem to go away? Maybe help me and our listeners understand what has that trajectory looked like for you? Because for so many of us, the circumstance doesn't change. I have a circumstance in my life right now that I'm thinking of that I'm like, it has literally been over a decade and this circumstance has not changed. And I don't know, just help our listeners understand what that trajectory of emotional intensity has looked like for you.
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
Yeah, even immediately, I wish that I could have said in my teaching today that I prayed those prayers and remembered those verses, and I had [an] immediate sense of peace. Because that's the story that we often hear or read about; that that's the way it looks. If you're in Jesus, He's the Prince of Peace. And if you pray these things and remember these verses, you're going to get an immediate sense of peace. But it just doesn't always work that way. And I'm happy for the people for whom it does work that way, but it comes in waves for me. Now, in that particular situation, do I still pray about it? Yes. But does it control my thought life with the intensity that it did then? No. However, in the years since then, new things have come up, right? I talk a lot when I go around speaking about winter seasons of life because I'm a farmer, so I'm always into a good seasonal metaphor.
Meredith Brock:
Amen. Bring it on.
Jennifer Dukes Lee:
So I talk about winter seasons, and I think that we just constantly want to live in the spring planting — plant those seeds and watch them grow in the summer and harvest them in the fall and then get right back to spring. But the truth is, one-fourth of the year on a farm is winter. And if the land can't skip winter, then why do we think that we get a pass? I think we do a disservice to the gospel when we pretend like once you're saved and once you are in Christ that you get a pass on winter seasons. It just doesn't work that way. There are many circumstances where I find myself gripping the back of a pew at church wondering, How am I going to make it through this thing? We can choose to go through them without God, or we can choose to go through them with God.
And it doesn't mean that when we choose to go through them with God that all the pain goes away or that the peace immediately comes. And I think coming to terms with that reality that we face pain deeply in our minds and our bodies, even as Christians who do the right thing, is part of walking around this earth and doing life. We go through winter seasons, and I wish there were a better way. I wish that God would just have us happily in summer all the time, always on vacation, always by the pool ... like stick me on a floating [device] on a lake, and I'm going to be happy. It just doesn't work that way. So just continuing to grow in that intimacy and knowing that God is listening and that even if it doesn't feel like He's there to remind yourself through people, through God's Word and through your past experiences, that He is going to walk you through this one too.
Kaley Olson:
Man, it's so good. Well, if there's two things that I've kind of taken away from this, it's there are two things that we need to do when these winter seasons come to prepare for them. We need to get in God's Word, like you said, gripping the pew. You didn't have anything that came out of your mouth, but bubbling up from your spirit came what you had spent time in God's Word. So that happened. Get in God's Word, and then practice community with Him. And so, guys, if you're in that season right now or that one might be coming because its true seasons are ever ... it's like a cycle. They're always coming and going. I want you to grab Jennifer's book Stuff I'd Only Tell God and use the journal prompts to dig deep into the things that you've stuffed away so that you can truly experience true healing. And then the second thing, you can connect with Jennifer on Instagram and — lighthearted moment here — maybe see a video of some pigs @jenniferdukeslee.
Meredith Brock:
And if today's topic has you feeling like you really need to see what God's Word has to say about emotions, then don't forget about the very free First 5 study guide pages we have for you [linked] in the show notes. When you enter your email, you'll get the opening letter that explains what you'll learn and Old Testament timelines of the book of Lamentations, a page that explains the word “lament” in biblical terms, plus the first three days of the study to really get you diving into understanding your emotions from a biblical perspective. So just visit the link in the show notes to learn more.
Kaley Olson:
Amazing. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a treat to have you on all the way from Iowa. And, friends, as we wrap up, I just want to be sure of one more thing that you guys are subscribed to our free podcast monthly newsletter that goes out at the end of every month. It's from me because I want to make sure that you get a personal connection with someone on the Proverbs 31 team. And every month, you'll get a snippet of something God's been teaching me, sneak peek at what's coming up on the show, and ways you can get more connected to the ministry each month. You can subscribe today using the link in the show notes. That's all for today, friends. As always, we believe when you know the Truth and love the Truth, it changes everything. See you!