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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Speaker 3: Being so deeply entrenched in
pornography use, I got to a point where
I honestly questioned if my being on
earth, being in the presence of my family
and friends if it was even worth it.
Mm.
It's a miracle that I
even made it home alive.
it was that bad,
Speaker: Welcome to another episode
of Unashamed, Unafraid, Unashamed of
sexual addiction recovery and unafraid
of coming out of crisis for healing.
Speaker 2: What up, man?
Speaker: We record these back to back, so,
you know, I, I wanna say, "How you doing?"
But you just told me about an hour
and a half ago, how you doing?
Speaker 2: Fan-freaking-awesome.
Fan-freaking-tastic.
That's what I usually say, but,
well, it's awesome because I justâ¦
We had back to back boot camps.
I was able to take my family to Hawaii
Speaker: and- Yeah, dude.
You've been in the message.
Speaker 2: Yep.
You've been- Just living it
right now, and it's been amazing-
Yeah, man ⦠absolutely amazing.
Speaker: Remind me, did you present on
divine masculinity in that boot camp?
No, Doug
Speaker 2: did.
Doug did-
Speaker: Okay
⦠Speaker 2: uh, masculinity.
Speaker: That one, that one wasâ¦
It's funny, I can't even remember
who presented, but I- You
Speaker 2: just remember the message, man.
Speaker: Dude, I- That's, that's
good ⦠it broke something in
me that, needed breaking open.
It was beautiful.
Speaker 2: Heck
Speaker: yeah.
I went to Wanship.
Did you go to Arizona as well?
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker: Okay.
So all
Speaker 2: of-
Speaker: I
Speaker 2: go to
Speaker: prison.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: So we've got six more-
Speaker: Right
Speaker 2: on ⦠at the end
of the, by, by this year.
So next is Alaska, and then
we're adding Washington.
This is our second Washington
one, so we're adding two
Washington ones this year.
Yeah.
This'll be our second one Which by theâ¦
Speaker: Shout out to Dan Ostler.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker: Who pretty much single-handedly
set that up and made it happen.
Speaker 2: Yep, totally.
He- He brought so many guys.
We're like- Oh, my gosh ⦠"Well,
let's do a boot camp at your place,"
and now we're doing another one- Yeah.
If you know, if you know Dan
Speaker: Ostler-
in North Carolina ⦠reach out to him.
Guy's incredible.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Uh, two quick questions before-
Speaker: Yeah ⦠we start.
This is trivia for you.
Swing.
Number one, what is the most
listened to podcast in Unashamed,
Unafraid history, ? Can you guess?
Speaker 2: One of them with
Jennifer Finley is in five.
Speaker: It's not, actually.
In fact, that was, like, pretty mid-level.
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'll
Speaker: give you
Speaker 2: one
Speaker: more guess, and I'll tell
Speaker 2: you.
Um-
I know mine was up there, but
I think somebody surpassed mine
Speaker: It was yours Like
Speaker 2: mine?
Speaker: Yeah, dude.
And it's not even close.
It's not even close.
Heck yeah.
Yours has, like, 35 to 40% more
views than any other episode
. Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker: I was looking at, I was looking
at the other day, I was like, "Of course."
Speaker 2: That's dope, man.
Speaker: Yeah, pretty cool.
Thanks
Speaker 2: for listening, everybody
â¦
I know we have some bangers
on there, so guys- Yeah
⦠listen away.
Speaker: In fact, if, if this
is the first episode you've ever
listened to, highly recommend.
We don't have an episode
one for some reason.
I actually don't know why we don't
have an episode one, but start at
episode two and go all the way through.
Most people tell us that binge-listening
from the very beginning just has
a, a very- Yeah ⦠profound,
uh, impact on their recovery.
So- You can hear how our
Speaker 2: audio gets really good-
⦠'cause it starts off really bad.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker: Anyways, well, we're
here for another story episode.
Paul Claverie, and by the way,
you and I actually chatted for
quite a while on the phone, much
longer than most of our guests.
Yeah.
And, and I, I got to know
quite a bit of your story.
Incredible, man.
Thank you.
I, I'm so excited to dig more into this.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Introduce
yourself a little bit, man.
Speaker 3: My name's Paul Claverie.
Grew up in California.
I was born in Connecticut,
grew up in California.
I was number three of five kids
Speaker 4: part of the LDS, faith,
Speaker 3: served a mission
in Houston, got married at 25.
I've had three careers in my, in my life.
Wow.
I started off as a motorcycle mechanic.
Speaker 2: Sweet.
Speaker 3: Um- That's cool ⦠loved it.
You know, I just realized that w- you
know, in the capacity that I was doing
it, it just wasn't gonna provide for
a family, and that's something that
was near and dear to my heart, to have
a family and to be able to provide
as a father for them, for my family.
And that led me into, um, once I got
married, um, I became a apprentice
crane operator, like from a mechanic
to a, you know, a crane operator.
So I was-
Speaker 2: I thought you said train.
Speaker 3: Crane.
Like Iâ¦
Yeah, like-
Speaker 2: Yeah, crane.
But- Dude, I, I did sales for
cr- uh, not sales for cranes.
I did the financing for cranes-
Yeah ⦠for a long time.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
So I went through that apprenticeship
that was typically is a
three-year, three-year program.
Got it done in two and a half years 'cause
I was super motivated and super driven
to be, you know, an operator in the seat.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Did that for seven
and a half years, and realized
pretty quick that, uh- Were you
Speaker 2: out in California there too,
Speaker 3: no, this was in Colorado.
Okay.
Colorado and here in Utah.
I did a, did, had a couple
jobs here in, in Utah.
But I realized real quick,
too, that that wasn't gonna be
something that was sustainable.
It was just hard on your body.
It was long hours, took you away
from your home a l- quite a bit,
and I just knew deep down inside
I could do better with my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to
be a pilot, and I went back to
school in, uh, January of 2009.
shortly after I finished the
apprenticeship 'cause I was like,
"Okay, I wanna, I wanna finish my
apprenticeship, then I can take
a bite into the next career."
Um, and went to school for aviation.
I did it online while I was working
full-time, and I had a side business
I was running out of my garage to earn
extra money to help support the family.
And having two children, uh,
all in the s- all the same time
period, so I was, I was- You were
Speaker 2: busy
⦠Speaker 3: pretty busy, yeah.
So working full-time, full-time
student at school, and running
a business on the side.
I took on a lot.
Yeah.
And, and, you know, we all felt
it, and it was kind of a challenge.
But I got hired with a, with a company
down in, in Grand Canyon in 2014 following
a really devastating cancer diagnosis
for my, my oldest daughter, um- Mm
three, at three years old.
And I was working at the time as a crane
operator up in Salt Lake, and I got the
call from my wife, and, uh, she said,
"Yeah, the, the doctor said that we
need to be at, up in Salt Lake, and if
we're not on the road in the next two
hours, Presley's gonna be life-flighted."
And, uh- Wow ⦠it was after some
blood work that was done down in
southern Utah, and I just felt like
a ton of bricks hit me in the chest.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 3: And that, for the next
year she had pretty, some pretty
intensive cancer treatments, which
was devastating to us all, and then
six weeks after her diagnosis, I
lost my job as a crane operator.
Speaker 2: So did you lose your
job because you were doing so
much for helping your daughter?
Or what was the situation there?
Speaker 3: I think at that time in
my life, I was so concerned about my
daughter and her health and wellbeing
that I was physically at work, but
not necessarily mentally, and I was
just making mistakes that were kind
of inexcusable, and put people'sâ¦
I mean, we're working
with very heavy equipment.
Yeah.
You know, cranes and
counterweights and- Lives can
Speaker 2: be in
Speaker 3: danger, for sure.
Yeah, big time.
And I just wasn't in a good space
mentally with her, and this crippling
burden of, you know, my own unhealthy
coping mechanism of porn usage to
help deal with these hard transitions,
these, these hard life events.
And- So
Speaker: that's how you
were managing it all?
Speaker 3: For sure.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yep.
I was basically pulling a trailer
out of a bunch, a stack of other
trailers, and I wasn't paying attention.
I turned the, the 18-wheeler tractor
too soon, and I clipped another trailer
that had a counterweight on it, and
that counterweight basically just
flopped over and it twisted the entire
trailer, and it was laying on the ground.
And the tr- the tr- the, you know, this
flatbed 18-wheeler trailer was, you know,
not in good shape, and there was probably
some damage there, and they, they called
me into the office and they s- they said,
"We know your daughter's not doing well.
We're gonna have to separate company.
We're gonna pay you for, you know,
this, that, and the next two weeks."
So they, they were kind about it, I guess,
but they just knew that right now wasn't
the best time for me to be- Dang ⦠work-
working with heavy equipment- Wow ⦠and
having the, having the burden of what
I had yet talked about or really worked
through, and then Presley's stuff.
So yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: It was a lot.
Speaker 2: And how is she doing now?
Speaker 3: She is doing fantastic.
I absolutely adore her.
She is the apple of my eye.
She is, like, my whole world.
She's been cancer-free for,
since, uh, was it 2015?
It was a two-and-a-half year period
of, like, ca- uh, treatment and then a
year of, like, post-treatment, I guess.
Um, but she's, she's a teenager now, and
yeah, we'll talk about, you know, I'm sure
do- down the road in this podcast about
some other challenges that have kind of,
uh, created some, some hardships for b-
you know, for us in our relationship.
But- Oh, man ⦠um, you know, I, I
love her to death, and she's, umâ¦
During her cancer treatment and
after I lost my job, it was God
sending a very strong message to me
saying, "Y- your kids, your family,
is your most important thing right
now, and you need to focus on them."
And every day I treated it like it
was her last because I didn't know.
I didn't know- Right ⦠how
long I'd have her.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to spend every
waking moment with her, do all the
activities, go to the parks, be there
for her in the hospital, the whole
nine yards, and I was, and I did.
So
Speaker: How did thatâ¦
I mean, I, I'd imagine that probably
had a huge impact on your recovery.
Speaker 3: Earlier today, I was
actually rehearsing in my mind, like,
the th- the thoughts and the feelings
that I had because of my relationship
with pornography that, that I blamed
myself for her cancer diagnosis.
Hmm.
And yet I was still using that unhealthy
coping mechanism in my life 'Cause
Speaker 2: you were react- you
were acting out, so you were
like, "Well, God is punishing me"
Speaker 3: 100%.
Right.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yep.
And I lear- and I learned that from
my grandfather 'cause when he was in
the service in World War II, they gave
the, the sailors on the ships, the
Marines, they gave all the soldiers
cigarettes, and he picked up smoking.
Didn't really care to smoke and, and
he also blamed himself, and he told me
this story several times about how he
blamed himself for my mom having asthma.
And he's like, "If I hadn't have
smoked, your mom wouldn't have asthma."
Hmm.
I was likeâ¦
So that always stuck in my mind
like, oh, that's how that works.
Like, if you s- Yeah, interesting ⦠if
you s- if you sin, the, the consequences
of your choices are placed upon your kids.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 3: Which I know is
absolute ridiculousness now.
Like, my choices did not give her
cancer, did not give my mom asthma.
Right.
It's just, just life's challenges and-
Speaker: I mean, interesting
to think about it, though.
I mean, during Jesus' time,
that was a foundational belief-
For sure ⦠of their society.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Itâ¦
Who sinned, the man or his parents?
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker: Satan will bring that
one back every once in a while.
Speaker 3: For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I truly, wholeheartedly
believe that, but I know that
that's absolute craziness.
Speaker: So why start there
in your recovery journey?
Speaker 3: Well, it didn't
really start there, I guess.
As a pilot progresses through,
through his career, you st- you
start out as a first officer.
You get so much time learning
the aircraft, learning
the operations and stuff.
And, and when you have 1,000 hours
in whatever particular aircraft
you're flying, you can either upgrade
to a captain in that airplane,
or you can transition to be a
captain in a different airplane.
Well, at the time, for me to upgrade in
the airplane I was currently flying, it
would require me to be based in LaGuardia,
and we were living in Vegas at the time.
And I was like, "I'm not flying
across the country to go sit as a
reserve pilot," meaning I didn't,
I never knew when I was gonna fly.
And I just didn't have the confidence yet.
Like, I justâ¦
There was too many variables
that I was unaware of.
Like, what is it like to be a captain?
What are the responsibilities?
I have to know all these things and,
and again, like, I was projecting my
own fears and my own reservations of
what that role really entailed.
And I was getting a lot of pressure to
upgrade on a different model of jet.
And during the time of, of my marriage,
I always racked my mind with like, how do
I have to perform to be loved by my wife?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was all based
on performative things like,
do I have to get a better job?
Do I have to make more money?
Do I have to get bigger muscles?
I was trying to find some clarity with
What is going to compel her to want
to choose me, to feel sexual around
me, to want to engage in those m-
married type activities, you know?
Right.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: And so feeling pressure
from a lot of former coworkers that
have, you know, came to the airline
or, you know, moved on to different,
different companies, getting a lotâ¦
Feeling a lot of pressure from them,
like, "Oh, you gotta upgrade, you
gotta do this, you gotta do that," and
then getting the pressure from my wife
to do the same, I was like, "Okay,
well, if she's telling me I gotta do
this, I probably should do it because
this might allow me to feel loved."
Right?
This might be the crest of this hill
of like, "You're not good enough.
You're not good enough," and then,
"Oh, now that you're a captain at an
airline and you can actually provide
for our family, now I'll choose you.
Now I'll engage with you in
the ways that most healthy
marriages engage with each other."
And-
Speaker 2: So is this the relationship
that you had with God as well?
You gotta earn His love as well?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think at
that point in my life I really knew what
a healthy relationship with God was.
Mm.
You know, I knew all the, the, the primary
answers, the chur- you know, the church
answers that you, you're given and, uhâ¦
But I d- I d- Yeah, the
Speaker 2: Sunday school answers?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the
Sunday school answers.
But I don't think at the time I
really had a true knowledge or even a
relationship with God or Jesus Christ
Until I really needed them to
get through this, you know.
I'm not one to use addiction
language 'cause I don't feel
like I was ever an addict.
I feel like I was using a very
unhealthy coping mechanism to deal
with what I was trying to navigate
in my life, feeling like I didn't
have a partner through it all.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And-
Speaker 3: When,
Speaker 2: so when did that
s- come into your life?
When did, like, porn use and things
like that come into your life?
Speaker 3: So, so growing up, I,
I never, I never dabbled in it.
I was exposed to it a few times, you
know, going into, like, a 7-Eleven
and the guy behind the counter
open up, opening up a magazine.
Like, whoa, what are you doing, you know?
And I wouldâ¦
I'd have, I'd have a couple
friends that were, uh, not- But
Speaker 2: can you imagine that now?
Like-
Speaker 3: Oh
⦠Speaker 2: the, l- here's a teenage
kid or a younger kid walking in,
dude's, like, in 7-Eleven just
opening up some porn mag or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was, he was- Just
Speaker 2: dude wo- be be
arrested and everything
⦠Speaker 3: he was the clerk behind
the counter, and he'd open up, like,
I don't even remember the magazine.
It probably was some, it was s-
something a little more hardcore.
Yeah.
And he opened it up, the centerfold,
and showed it to me and my friends,
and we were just like, "Whoa,"
you know, "what are you doing?"
And it, there was a few times I
had, I had friends that were not
members of the church, and so they,
you know, would get tapes and videos
and stuff, and they would, you
know, try to get me to watch it.
And I remember my best friend actually
had a, had a tape from his friend,
and he was trying to hide it from his
parents, and I was like, I actually
detested anything that resembled
pornographic material, and I didn't
want him to even be looking at it.
So I went out to his backyard, I
threw the tape up in the air, and hit,
and crushed it with a baseball bat.
And he got so mad at me.
And, and I remember it, he's like,
"Dude, that wasn't even my tape."
And I'm like, "Oh, sorry, I didn't know."
"You shouldn't be watching
this stuff," you know?
And so then I get into my
adult, adult life, and I'm
dating, you know, post-mission.
And I went on a date with my wife
at the time, and we had that talk
before going into a stake dance.
She asked me straight up, she's like,
"Do you have a problem with pornography?"
And I said, "Nope."
I said, "I've been exposed to it, I've
seen it, but I don't actively seek it
out or, you know- Yeah ⦠use it."
And I'll never forget what she told me.
She saidâ¦
She's like, "Good, because I
have zero tolerance for it."
And I never really recognized it at
the time, but deep down in my soul,
I'd, what I recognized was, so if I
ever do slip into that struggle, it's
not a conversation we'll ever have.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It's over.
I'll have to hide
Speaker 3: forever.
I'll ha- I will have to hide this from
you because I don't wanna break the
trust that I'm trying to build with you.
And I know, I know the history
within your family around that, and
I know it's a very taboo subject.
But I, at the time I was like, I
wasn't worried about it until I
got pulled into the grips of use,
of, of the pornography usage.
Speaker 2: So when did that
come into your marriage?
Speaker 3: It was like eight or
nine months after our daughter
was born, and sexual intimacy
connection was completely shut off.
And I'm like thinking-
Speaker: So you've been married
for how long w- at this point?
Speaker 3: About three years.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Um-
Speaker: In other words,
she just not interested.
Speaker 3: Not interested.
She had
Speaker: made that clear
Speaker 3: to you?
No.
And I, I tried to be as compassionate, as
understanding like, "Hey, you had a baby.
You're healing.
Like, things are happening with your body
that I have no awareness of-" Totally
per se.
So I'm trying to be the, the good, you
know, patient, love-bearing husband.
And I just got to a point, I'm
like, "I don't know what to do."
And she basically told me, she's
like, "If you need to have sex
so bad, go find a girlfriend."
And I looked at her like,
Speaker 2: like, "You
Speaker 3: don't mean that."
Mm-hmm.
I, I didn't know what to think,
but I went, I went and I talked
to, talked to my bishop about it.
He called her in, had a talk with her,
and he's basically just like, "Don't
ever tell your husband to go find a
girlfriend because you're not willing to
have sexual relationships with, with him."
And at that point, like I said, I'm
like, "Okay, Paul, you have two options.
You can divorce or you can
start fulfilling those wants in
another capacity," and that's
when I turned to pornography.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Did she ever, like, explain to you why
she didn't wanna be intimate with you?
Speaker 3: So when I was, when
I was born, I was actually born
with a congenital deformity that
directly affected sexual functioning.
The word for it is chordee.
I don't know if you've
heard of that before.
Yeah.
But that, that was something
that she didn't know going
into the marriage that I had.
And because I had been sexually abstinent
up until that point, never masturbated,
never u- used porn, it wasn't something
that I was like thought that it was
a problem, and I had never, I'd never
actually even seen other men naked,
and I had three brothers and a father.
Never saw anyone.
And so I didn't really understand,
so I came into this blind.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 3: And when the
sexual interactions came to
be, that created a problem
And lovingly she told me, she's like, "You
know, we can, we can work around this.
We can, we can find other ways
to be close to each other."
And I thought, "Great," like, "we'll
make something work," you know?
But just know, and I told her
this like the first week we were
married, I said, "I'm willing to
deal with this if it becomes too
much or like you don't feel-" Yeah,
Speaker 2: because this
is new for me too, so.
Speaker 3: Right.
And I talked to therapists, ASECT
certified trained therapists
going through all this journey.
And, um, I was blamed for not disclosing
this condition that I literally just
found out that it was a condition, that
I, I was born with a congenital defect-
Speaker: Hmm
⦠Speaker 3: going into the marriage.
And it did.
It, it, it presented, or at least
that's the way it was spun for me,
was, "It's uncomfortable to have
penetrative sex with you, Paul."
And I said, "Okay.
Well, I'm happy to fix, get this
figured out, whatever it takes."
Um- Meaning
Speaker: what?
Speaker 3: It was a surgical procedure.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Which I had done in 2021.
It was April of 2021 after years
of research trying to find a
doctor that actually performed
this specific specialized surgery.
And again, by the good grace of God,
it, it was like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna allow you to find this person,
this doctor that literally specializes
in this specific surgery to be able to
make this right so you can have a healthy
sexual relationship with your wife."
Speaker: Yeah.
And up to 2021, uh-
pretty sexless marriage?
Speaker 3: I mean, by
definition, did it happen?
Yeah.
And I fell into the trap of keeping
score and writing down the dates and
the times and- Right ⦠like, "Hey,
I initiated and it didn't happen,"
or, "She initiated and it did happen."
And like I, I would, I would
keep a, a log book, right?
'Cause that's what pilots do, right?
We keep log books of things- Yeah.
⦠of events that happened, right?
And so I kept track and, like,
looking back, and it was super on
health issues, had the conversation
with her then s- you know?
But I didn't have the courage, I
didn't feel like I had the voice to
even speak up because I felt damaged.
I felt like I was- Yeah ⦠flawed
and broken even coming into this
world, coming into a marriage,
and now having that mirror held up
like, "This is uncomfortable, Paul.
This is painful to do this with you."
And, and for me I'm like, "Okay.
Well, then let's deal with it."
"Oh, no, we can work around it."
I'm like, "No, we need
to deal- Let's do it.
we need to deal with this."
Like, you ever been driving down
the road and get a flat tire?
"Oh, it's okay.
We'll just drive on the rim."
Right.
No, we're gonna stop.
We're gonna pull the spare out.
We're gonna put it on and
we're gonna drive away.
Fix it.
Fix it, right?
So that could have been a
problem throughout the marriage-
Except when I had the surgery, had the
deformity, the birth defect corrected
All the way until, uh, the marriage ended,
we had had sexual intercourse maybe twice-
Speaker 2: Mm.
Wow
⦠Speaker 3: since the surgery.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: And so in
my mind, I'm thinking-
Speaker 2: Was it that point, was she,
like, not wanting to have it at all?
She was just like, "I'm out"?
Or was it still painful for her?
Speaker 3: No.
I asked her aft- You know, the first time
we, you know, we had penetrative sex, I
asked her, I said, "Give me some feedback.
Like, was it painful?
Was itâ¦"
She's like, "No, it
actually felt really good."
I'm like, "Great."
Speaker 2: You're like, "Sweet, we're in."
Like- And- ⦠"We need to do this now."
Speaker 3: And then it only
happened one other time.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: And-
Speaker 2: Mm
⦠Speaker 3: and I'm like, "So
was that really the problem?"
Like-
Speaker 2: Totally that problem,
Speaker 3: right?
You know, like, you, you bring,
you bring a list of concerns, and
I, I dealt with all, all of them.
Now there's nothing to, now
there's nothing to talk about.
There's no more excuses
of why you can't show up.
So let's create something healthy.
Let's create a new marriage-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker 3: based on a healthy,
sexual, collaborative marriage And,
Speaker 2: and for most of the
marriage, she didn't know anything
about your addiction, right?
Speaker 3: She did not.
Or,
Speaker 2: or-
Speaker 3: No
⦠Speaker 2: porn use,
' Speaker 3: cause I know- She did not
⦠you don't wanna use addiction, but- No.
She found out through reading an
email that I had been working with a
therapist here in Utah, Daniel Burgess.
Um- Shout
Speaker 2: out to Daniel Burgess.
We've had him on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dan- He's
dope ⦠Daniel's great.
And I told him my story, and he said,
"Paul, I can count on one hand how
many guys have done what you've done."
He said, "Well, it's pretty
incredible for you to just make a
decision and just stop, be done."
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: Right?
Being so deeply engulfed, entrenched in
pornography use, I got to a point where
I honestly questioned if my being on
earth, being in the presence of my family
and friends and everyone was evenâ¦
if it was even worth it.
And I made the decision that I was
done with pornography after a failed
attempt at that captain upgrade
to try to earn love from my wife.
The blow of that failure was probably
one of the most devastating events
in my life, because I had to drive
from Salt Lake all the way back to
Vegas knowing that I was a failure.
Mm.
It's a miracle that I even made
it home to Vegas- Mm ⦠alive.
It was that bad, and I
told myself, "You're done.
No more."
And from that day forward, I, I made
a, I made a commitment to myself that
I wasn't ever going to use again.
Speaker: That's incredible to me, right?
And I've made one or two of
those commitments and maybe
gone one or two months clean.
But I didn't have enough recovery
knowledge to know w- y- you're
using this as an unhealthy coping
mechanism to meet unmet needs.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker: Right?
And so, of course, I eventually broke
that commitment to never do it again
because I didn't fix the underlying issue.
Right.
I'm curious what that was like for
you, because what you've described to
us to this point, Paul, is, "I'm not
relating well to other people in my life.
I'm not having fulfilling
connections emotionally, sexually."
It sounds like not, not
spiritually either, right?
You mentioned not really
struggling to know who is God and-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker: how'd you then maintain that
sobriety where that, that had been
a struggle to meet your own needs?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Well, I think one of the biggest things
truly was in 2018, I was, I was involved
in a motorcycle accident where I broke
my wrist and almost tore my ACL in my
right leg, and that was right before the
attempted upgrade on the other aircraft.
And a good friend of mine got me into
going to the gym, and I realized,
like, my body was pathetically
weak, and the accident really woke
me up to the fact that I needed to
get healthy mentally, spiritually,
physically- Yeah ⦠and sexually.
Like, I had a lot of work to do.
Lots of work.
And I started going to the gym, and with
the physical therapy that I was doing,
going to the gym, getting strong, like
I, I s- embarked on a path not only for
my physical well-being, but more of a
spiritual journey of, you know, knowing
who I was, getting strong in every way,
and it was just a physical representation
of the strength within that I had to
obtain and to grow in so many areas.
And that was enough to find the connection
just being around people, having some,
having a community to be around, you know-
Right ⦠to exercise, and to basically
curb those feelings of sexuality that I
just didn't even know what to do with-
You know, prior to that point.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 3: Sex is inherently
a physical activity, right?
So is working out.
Like, those same endorphins and all
those good hormones and chemicals
that are flooding your body during
exercise, very similar to the endorphins
and the, the hormones released
during a sexual activity, right?
And so like I said, I was able
to curb that through r- running,
lifting, you know, doing all the
exercises at the gym, and then being
in community, talking with people.
Like c- you know, having some type
of connection with literally anybody.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Speaker 2: Crazy the amount of
people that you get to know when
you're at the gym all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
I'm so thankful for my friend
introducing me to that, because it's
been seven years since I started Orange
Theory, and I'm, I'm very consistent,
I'm deliberate, I'm intentional.
Speaker: So tell us about
the spiritual piece of that.
What has it looked like to reconcile
a broken relationship with God?
Speaker 3: Man, this is hard
I started digging deep into the atonement
because I knew that my course was off, and
I had to redirect my course back to the
Gospel, the ways in which I knew I needed
to show up and the way I needed to behave.
I needed some redirection.
I love to have very concrete, solid
resources for life, and I do very
well when things are laid out, things
are structured, because I know what's
expected of me, I know what's expected
of others in relationship with me.
And that's something I justâ¦
I didn't have a full understanding of what
the atonement was, and I've, I learned
more about Christ, and I started praying
and developing a, a, a relationship
with him to where I knew that I wasn't
inherently flawed, that I wasn't broken,
I wasn't a h- a hopeless in, in my life.
Like, this was something that you
could see the other side of it, Paul.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 3: And through conversations
I've had with my bishop, with other
people about this, and as a Latter-day
Saint, we go to the temple, and learning
about the covenants that we make there.
And yeah, it's just a lot.
Speaker 2: So trying to paint a
timeline for our viewers, right?
So you get married.
No acting out until maybe-
Speaker 3: It was about
three years in ⦠three
Speaker 2: years.
Three years in.
Sorry, three years.
Height of it, you're, you're
still acting out until when?
Speaker 3: Until basically the
dr- the dr- the drive home from
that failed training event.
That was in 2019, April 2019,
and it wasn't until 2020
during, when COVID was going on.
I drove to Vegas to pick up a
couple motorcycles I had promised
a gal down in Vegas that I would
fix these two motorcycles and
basically restore them into one.
On the way back, I stopped at my
mother-in-law's house, and I was
out walking the property, and
my bishop called, and he said,
"Paul, I noticed that you don't
have a current temple recommend."
I said, "That's true."
And he's like, "Do you have
anything you wanna talk about?"
And I will never forget the feeling.
It hit me like a truck.
The Spirit hit me so hard to tell him
about what was going on, and I told him
everything, everything that happened,
any details that he wanted to know.
You know, I tried to paint a picture,
and I was shocked of what he told me.
And he's likeâ¦
He just kinda like nonchalantly
was like, "Well, that's it?
You just, you just watched porn andâ¦"
I said, "Yeah."
And he's like, "Okay, and you've been, you
haven't been doing it for over a year?"
I said, "Yeah."
He's like, "Cool.
Well, when you get back in town,
let's, let-" Get you a recommend.
"⦠let, let's meet up and
let's get you a recommend."
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: And I was blown away
because for my whole life I thought
that pornography was going to destroy
your marriage, destroy your family,
you were gonna get excommunicated.
Like, I thought it was the
sin that was next to murder.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 3: And that if
I was involved in itâ¦
And at the time, I didn't think anyone
struggled with what I was dealing with.
I thought I was alone in that struggle.
Right.
And I couldn't go to anybody for fear
of rejection, "You're a bad person.
Stay away.",
It was a terrible place to be.
After that conversation,
my entire perspective
shifted that it was like, "Oh, this
must not be as bad as I've, that
I was led on to my entire life."
And yeah, that was another- And
Speaker 2: you'd been married
how, how long at that point?
Speaker 3: Let's see.
That was, uh, maybe 14 years.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: So acting out 11 years, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Day before bootcamp, your wife,
like, is she, like, searching your emails?
She- Or like, how does she come across-
Speaker 3: Well, the, the email-
⦠Speaker 2: this email?
Did he like,
" Speaker 3: Oh,
Speaker 2: I wanna read this."
Speaker 3: Yeah, the email just popped up.
She's like, "I don't know how
it popped up," but I was like,
"Oh, this is interesting,"
like, "Who's Daniel Burgess?"
And she started reading the email, and
it was, it was me a year a- so I got
home, and I sent Daniel that email.
And aft- and then she- Sent it
Speaker 2: to your therapist
⦠Speaker 3: sent it to my therapist
because I wanted to have a healthy
disclosure, whatever that looked like.
I didn't know what, I didn't even
know what that looked like, but I
was like, "I need some help with
this," because at the time, my bishop
told me, she, he's like, "Between
me, you, and the Lord, we're good."
He's like, and I, you know, I, I had had,
I've had this conversation with him about
it, and he's like, he's like, "Yeah,
y- you don't need to tell your wife.
This isn't something that's, you know,
if you, if you wanna tell her, great.
If you don't, no big deal.
Like, you're good
between me and the Lord."
And I said, "Cool."
Speaker: That's very surprising.
I, I don't know that I would
recommend that advice to anyone.
Speaker 3: Right.
And, and he, he said, "You must
have heard that different, Paul,"
'cause, you know, whatever.
But in my heart of hearts, I
knew I needed to tell her because
part of, part of me getting clean
was disclosing what I had done.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Being honest, despite the
consequences, I had to bring that to her.
She needed to know who I-
Right ⦠who I've been and who
I'm not going to be anymore.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
So if you guys need information
on what actual disclosure, like
therapeutic, good way to do disclosure
looks like, listen to episode 38.
It's awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Um, so the disclosure never happened.
That was the first
attempt, and then late- But
Speaker 2: she read it.
Speaker 3: And then later, yeah.
And then later, when we got into couples
counseling, our therapist was like,
"Yeah, we need to, I think it'd be healthy
to do a, a therapeutic disclosure."
And-
Speaker 2: How did she take the
disclosure when you actually,
like, did full disclosure and-
Speaker 3: We never did it.
Speaker 2: You just did it, just
the one went, where you did the
Speaker 3: disclosure- She
told me- ⦠in the kitchen?
She, sheâ¦
Oh, the kitchen?
She had a lot of questions.
She's, she asked me, um, hopefully
I can remember this right.
She asked me about if I've
ever paid a prostitute.
No.
Have you ever slept
with a flight attendant?
No.
Have you ever slept with
anyone other than me?
No.
Have you- See,
Speaker 2: that just goes to show
when there's not full disclosure,
what the woman goes through, or the
spouse, like whatever it is, right?
Yeah.
It could be a husband, of what they
put in their head and the story-
Mm ⦠that they tell themselves
Because they will go extreme.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker 2: They'll be like, "Oh, he's
looking at porn, so he's doing all these
and these and this and this and this,"
and it's gonna be the worst picture.
For sure.
So that's what's beautiful about
doing disclosure- Yeah ⦠is that
you're, like, finally laying it out and
being like, "This is what I've done."
Speaker 3: This is what I did.
What questions you got?
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Instead of them just,
like, sh- just going to extremes and-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker: my wife would
call it crazy-making.
So finish the timeline.
I think what I'm hearing is the
marriage started to end around the time
that this was all kinda coming out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, uh,
like, we tried therapy.
The therapist we were working with
at the time, he's like, "Highly
recommend for you to go work
with a brain mapping specialist.
Let's get some ideas of, like,
how your brain works," right?
And I'm like, "Yeah, I'll do, I will do
whatever it takes to make this marriage
work, to get it back to a good place."
I was- Dude, that's
crazy ⦠I was willing to do
anything, um, uh, to, to, to-
Speaker 2: You,
Speaker 3: you had
Speaker 2: gone over your sobriety,
and they're like, "Let's, let's go
check with the brain specialist."
Speaker 3: Right.
So I went, went to her- ⦠and
she basically was like, uh, uhâ¦
And a lot of the things that she
was placing on me, like, "You have
borderline personality disorder.
You're a narcissist.
You're a sex addict.
You're all these things," and this
specialist, in her report, said, "You're
not any of those things, Paul, but you
do do these things so that you can have
a sense of control of outcomes that are,
th- that are desirable for your life."
She's like, "But you're not, you're
not any of these things that your
therapist is speculating that you have."
And it was just really good to, to, like,
know what those, know, know that diagnosis
from a qualified health practitioner.
Yeah.
Um, 'cause, like, you know, t- in today's
world, everyone's a narcissist, everyone's
a sex addict, and it's like- Totally
"Well, wait a minute.
Like, let's, let's actually
get to the root cause."
And so, so that took place.
Um, and then, you know, my career
was, was starting to really
blow up and do, do really well.
Like, in a good way, yeah.
In a good w- in a fantastic way, yeah.
So I started flying as a captain,
uh, making just tons of money, and
I realized, like, between her and
I, we made extremely good money.
And I was like, "Why are we
always broke three days beforeâ¦
Like, we have, like, 2, $300 in our
account days before we get paid."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like, it
just didn't make sense.
We had no, nothing in savings,
nothing in retirement, and I'm like,
"Where's all this money going?"
I was a part of it, she
was a part of it, right?
I'll take responsibility for what I did,
and, you know, she can do what she wants.
But in December of 2022, I was like,
"We're separating bank accounts.
I g- I have to figure out where this
money's going and who's spending it."
That led to a separation and me moving
out, separating for an entire year.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 3: And I really
got honest with myself.
Speaker 2: Because she decided
that or you decided that?
Or mutual?
Speaker 3: It was kind ofâ¦
It was more, it was more
mutual that, yeah, we need, we
definitely need to take a break.
Um, and in that year, I
really took myself on.
I employed a coach, a therapist, and I
took a real hard look at myself in the
mirror every day, and I said, "Paul,
why would it be hard living with you?
Why would life-" Wow.
suck to live with Paul Claverie?"
And I took myself on with the help of both
the coach and the therapist, and I dealt
with everything: paying my bills, paying
her bills, l- sustaining her lifestyle
And so in that year, um, I was
working, I was trying to see
my kids as much as I could.
They never came over to my
house at that point either.
But I, I'd made some pretty
amazing accomplishments.
I had put away total savings, retirement,
over $100,000, and I paid off close
to $100,000 in my own debt with a
pickup truck, student loans, and some
small credit cards, wiped it all out.
And I came to her with a plan,
and I said, "This is, this is how
I wanna do money moving forward.
Tell me what looks good of this, of
these six, you know, bull-" That's
Speaker 2: freaking amazing
"⦠Speaker 3: bullet point plans, and
you tell me what works for you,
'cause I want to do this together.
If you wanna be a part of it, great.
If you don't, then we'll navigate that too
And she said, "Just keep
doing what you're doing.
I'm gonna keep doing with my,
what I'm doing, uh, 'cause I
wanna feel safe with my money."
I said, "Okay."
And at that point I was like, okay,
I've done literally everything
that I know in my power to do.
I've dropped the porn.
I've got the surgery
Speaker 2: You're pretty
dope to be around.
Speaker 3: And I got to the point where I
was like Okay, so the sexual stuff isn't
really going where, where it needs to be,
but, like, this, this financial stuff.
Like, if you're not willing to
at least get in some type of
alignment with me, this isn't a
marriage, and it's not one that I'm
willing to participate in anymore.
And I sat her down.
It was September 15th, uh,
2024, and I had beenâ¦
I had moved back in.
After about f- uh, four months after
I moved back in, seeing if things were
gonna get better, seeing if she wouldâ¦
If she was ready to step in
and start participating and
have it be an actual marriage.
Speaker 2: Financially, sexually.
Speaker 3: I, I was done being roommates.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was done with it, and, um-
Speaker 2: Roommates cost a lot less.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah, they actually pay half your bills.
Right?
Speaker 2: That's why I
say it costs a lot less.
Speaker 3: And, and after about,
after about four months of,
like, just a stalemate and no
movement, I'm like, "Dude, I want
something better out of my life.
I will have this."
Yeah.
"I will have a good,
healthy sexual relationship.
It's either gonna be with you or
it's gonna be with someone else,
but this is something I will have."
Speaker 2: Heck yeah.
" Speaker 3: And I'm not
messing around anymore.
You either step in or I'm done."
And I really like John Delony.
He's a podcaster.
Love
Speaker 2: John Delony.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
He talks about like h- like, the
marriage we know it, it's over.
Yeah.
Would you like to start a new marriage?
Yeah.
Would you like to
Speaker 2: s- And let's make it happen.
Speaker 3: Let's make it happen, right?
And before I even was able to get
that sentence out of my mouth,
she said, "Yeah, I'm done, too."
I said, "Huh, when were you gonna tell me?
You were just gonna let me just keep
doing what I'm doing and like, like,
living this life of quiet desperation?"
Speaker 2: Yeah.
" Speaker 3: Or were you going to be
honest and come to me and say, 'Hey,
Paul, something's gotta change'?
And bring that to me, right?
Bring that information so I know what's
in your heart, where you wanna go with
your life, 'cause I know this marriage
is not fulfilling in the slightest."
We have two wonderful kids.
They've been through a lot with
Presley's cancer and everything.
A- and together, we've navigated career
moves, location changes, like the death
of my father, the death of her father.
Like- Yeah ⦠we've navigated
so much together that I'm
like, "Man, this is rough."
If I d- can't have a
person lock arms with me
and deal with these hard things?
Life, life throws some hard
b- some curve balls at you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let alone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: D- can I count on you
to be there with me navigating
these, these challenges
throughout the rest of our lives?
'Cause they're gonna come.
It's, it's inevitable.
If I c- if I can't trust that you're
gonna be my ride or die, this is not a
marriage I'm willing to be in anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Mm.
Speaker 3: So I called it, and she
filed the paperwork, so at least
we were aligned on one thing.
Speaker: Right.
Well, I hear this theme of, " I
had to get into a healthier place.
In order to realize I was in a
close relationship with a person,
who wasn't gonna choose me.
And the next step in recovery
was, it's time to move on.
I'm gonna go build a life that I want."
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: That can be a
really hard decision.
Speaker 3: It was, it was a extremely
daunting decision, because I look at
my two wonderful kids and I'm like,
"This is gonna rock their world."
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 3: But do I show my kids what
an unhealthy marriage looks like?
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 3: And drop that
generational trauma into their
lap and let them deal with it?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 3: Or am I gonna
show up in true Paul fashion-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker 3: and take that on wholeheartedly
to not put it in their laps?
And I said, "Th- the, the, the most
courageous thing I can do is show
my kids you don't need to live in a
unhealthy, unfulfilling marriage,"
and so I chose to walk away.
Speaker: So Paul, as we're
wrapping up, if you had to say
one thing that you really haveâ¦
you understand now, that maybe you didn't
understand at the beginning of your story,
at the beginning of your recovery journey,
what would you say that one thing is?
Speaker 3: I would say one of my
biggest aha moments was, and for
the, the folks out there listening-
God gave us a gift of agency Mm-hmm
There was literally a war fought
in heaven for the ability for us-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
Speaker 3: to make a choice
in our life, to not drop that
responsibility in anyone else's lap.
If you wanna give up any addiction,
any unhealthy coping mechanism, all it
takes is for you to make that choice.
Or you can live by default, 'cause
it is a choice not to choose to
continue down a, that unhealthy road.
Speaker 2: Right.
Totally.
Speaker 3: And for me, the
choice was clear and undeniable.
I did not want to have an unhealthy
coping mechanism with pornography.
I wanted a healthy sexual relationship
with someone I loved and cared for deeply
And I will have that in my life
Speaker 2: And we'll get into that- Mark-
⦠in the bonus content, man ⦠mark
Speaker 3: my words.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Like, what it's
like for you now, dating world.
What are the things that you
talk to your kids about with the
divorce and, um, things like that.
We'll jump into that in the
bonus content, Hank, so.
Speaker 3: Right on.
Speaker: Tell us about your song.
Speaker 3: Song is Love Me At
My Lowest by Nash Blackwood.
, I love all the songs.
I was trying to think
of one from boot camp.
I couldn't find really anything that
really spoke to me except this one,
and I thought to myself, " what's a
phrase that would resonate with me?"
And to love someone at their
lowest shows that they are
your ride or die person, right?
And at my lowest
I felt like I was alone
And the only one that I realized
that had my back was Jesus Christ.
Hmm.
'Cause I had hit my absolute
rock bottom, my lowest.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting
because Jesus Christ has
those pseudonym names, right?
We call him The Rock, right?
So when you hit your
rock bottom, that's him.
Yeah.
That's him booing you up saying,
"Paul, you're not going any deeper.
You're stopped right here, and I got you.
Stand up, dust yourself off,
and rise from the ashes.
You got what it takes, and I'm
right here supporting you."
The song talks about how loving
someone at their lowest, it could be
Jesus Christ, it could be a spouse.
The song is very succinctly talks
about being supported in that way
of loving somebody at their lowest
despite their flaws, despite their,
their shortcomings, their weaknesses,
that you're willing to still show
up, lock arms, and fight it together.
And it feels like I didn't have that with
my spouse, and I so desperately wanted it.
And so I had to rely on Jesus
Christ to walk me down that path
Speaker: right on, brother.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker: Paul, thanks for being on, man.
Thanks.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Your, your story is quite a
bit different than a lot of the
stories that we have, right?
Speaker 3: It is, yep.
Speaker: I think that you're gonna connect
with, with a lot of men who feel like
maybe they don't fit the mold, right?
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe my story's
a little bit different.
Maybe my marriage looks different.
And, uh-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker: there's a place for that, too.
Thanks for coming on, brother.
Thanks for coming on, man.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker: Guys, thanks for watching.
Find us on social media
@UnashamedUnafraid.
Get access to our bonus content and become
an outsider on unashamedunafraid.com.
Join us in the bonus content
for Paul's discussion on taking
authority back into your own life.
Remember to subscribe to our YouTube
channel, and if this was helpful
to you, it'll probably be helpful
to someone else, so take some time
right now and share it with a friend.
Thanks again for watching, and until
next time, continue to live unashamed.
Here is Love Me At My
Lowest by Nash Blackwood.