The AllCreation Podcast

Teshuvah means to Return... Welcome to Pathways of Teshuvah: a discussion with Dr. Pesach Chananiah and Marcus Kar on Dr. Channaniah's breakthrough paper, "Pathways of Teshuvah: Repentance, Return, and Reconciliation Across Time and Place". This conversation is a continuation of a couple of features from AllCreations collection, Envisioning Transformation. In this event, AllCreation exec. editor Chris Searles interviews Chananiah and Kar about the revolutionary idea of finding truer identity, connection to the divine, deep-trauma healing, authentic community, and a more -- through deeper and more engaged relationships with Nature.

In part one we explore the ancient Jewish exile as separation from a number of "Nature-based" spiritual practices and how that led to the invention of indoor worship. In part two, Dr. Chananiah and Mr. Kar share personal insights and reflections on how living a more Nature-immersed life is both healing and energizing. And in part three, they talk about the necessity of getting one's own time to be safe, alone with, and connected to Nature.

  • Dr. Pesach Channaniah (featured author) is a community psychologist, author, educator, and organizer in Nevada, currently working to bring unions together on issues and opportunities around cleaner energy, with the Blue Green Alliance.  
  • Marcus Kar (special guest), Program Director, Youth Farm, North Minneapolis, is a youth mentor and food justice champion. He is also co-chair of the Homegrown Minneapolis Food Council
  • Chris Searles (host) is director of BioIntegrity and executive editor of He is also chief editor of the AllCreation collection, Envisioning Transformation.   
0:00 Welcome, Introduction, Overview
06:30 Conversation begins
    - Chris Searles, host 
    - Dr. Pesach Chananiah, author
    - Marcus Kar, special guest
08:40 Part 1: Identifying the Separation
32:00 Part 2: The Power of Reconnection
1:01:00 Part 3: How Do We Move Forward Together?

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What is The AllCreation Podcast? Faith • Spirit • Biodiversity • Connections



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Chris Searles (HOST) 0:06
Hi, Chris Searles. Here
I am Executive Editor at all and I am the director at bio integrity dotnet which produces all creation. And I botched the intro to our event last night. So that's why I'm making this video,

I want to welcome you to our conversation on pathways up to shuba with eco psychologist Pesach, Hanania, and special guest, Marcus Carr. Dr. Kanodia is a community organizer in Nevada working to bring unions together on issues and opportunities around cleaner energy. And Mr. Carr is a youth mentor in North Minneapolis, where he's program director for Youth Farm, which is helping kids in that part of the country get out of the traumas of institutionalized poverty and racism in America through urban gardening.

And that is an extremely brief description of what Marcus does, He is literally saving lives with the work he does with youth.

And that process has everything to do with engaging in nature, and returning to a more native sense of self to break out of the paradigms of institutionalized poverty. And as Marcus will tell you later in this interview of being black in America today, Marcus's urban gardening team just won a $750,000. grant to expand. And his Minneapolis Food Justice Council, which he was appointed to co lead by the mayor of Minneapolis after a six year process, just one city council approval yesterday for joining the Milan food justice pact. And this movement, this policy change in Minneapolis will empower expansion of local food production across the region. And even across the state of Minnesota. Marcus's approach to leadership is as a friend and as a builder. And as a grower, he builds balanced relationships, whether it's with the kids, or just as a gardener. He's working on balance and relationship. And this is because of his nature, knowledge.

And Pesach, the author of this breakthrough paper, he grew up as a Jewish American without a strong connection to his Judaism. And so as a PhD psychologist with a focus on how ecology and landscapes define our concept of reality, the space that we're in, as that person, he then went and explored his ancestral Jewish identity, and discovered that indigeneity, which you could define as living with a sense of sacred relationship to the other life, in this giant ecosystem, the biodiversity of a given landscape replace that that is embedded in the texts, the ancient Jewish texts in the identity of the ancient Jewish culture. And of course, cutting all the way sort of to the chase of why we're having this conversation, why it's so important. That's the culture that created the first five books of the Bible and a lot of things for Western civilization.

What Pesach is showing us and what Marcus's work is showing us postdocs personal experience as well, is that reconnecting to the land life, this is our best asset for a whole number of non environmental solutions. My focus in bio integrity is why that's the best asset for environmental solutions. But what these guys can tell you is that this reconnection to nature is healing traumas, and helping people grow into greater relationship with the other people around them. And the rest of the so called environment, this reality that we share of this life support system that we have named nature, which by the way, is unique to earth, of all the known planets in the universe. Right now. 1000s of planets have been surveyed by NASA, only one has life on it.

Chris Searles 3:45
I want to say one more thing about all this. One of the things that Pesach and Marcus and myself are finding which kind of comes out in this interview, is that by Re engaging in a nature connected life, immersing ourselves in nature, as much as possible, we're finding a sense of physical peace, and reestablishing physical alignment in our own bodies through stress relief. So every person I know has the need for physical comfort through feeling accepted and connected to the people around them. And the human world tends to make us feel not just emotional. The human world of today anyway tends to make us feel not just emotionally overwhelmed or abused, but physically uncomfortable, and we carry that body. With us.

There's a thing above, there's a thing of getting into the natural world and participating with it, observing and enjoying it that allows you to relax and become more open. Because that's what this world is this natural world. It's not a place of defensiveness, tyranny, or mind games and narratives and fear. It is a place of truth and reality. The creatures here are merely trying to coexist. Some of them are exceptionally benevolent such as the trees Give way more than they take. And some, of course, are poisonous and some of predators that's a small minority. And they are part of a larger biospheric system, or life support system that is self balancing and self correcting, and net productive over eons. And what I mean by that is, as we look over the history of the development of life on Earth, we've gone from micro organisms to the current era of macro organisms, you could say, with the micro organisms underneath. Earth did not start out as a planet with humans on it, all of our religions and science believed this. And it is the return or that to tshuva, the return to this connectedness to each other and the other life on earth, of getting out of the indoors, we're only humans rain and into the outdoors, that can help you access your true identity.

Pesach talks about this as liberation.

There's a lot to be said about our current way of life of work, and then sitting and watching Netflix and chilling and relaxing and distressing through entertainment, and media. But there's a lot more to be said for being in a place that allows you to explore and be who you really are in community with others. And to work together as Marcus has teams do to discover new things about each other and the miraculous living world. And it just spirals up from there.

So thanks so much for checking this out. We hope it stimulates your own investigations.

Here is last night's broadcast:

Chris Searles 6:35
All right, everybody, welcome. What we want to do in this event with you here is provide an introduction to some revolutionary ideas. I think for all people living in civilization today, about our separation from nature, and our reconnection to nature, all of the non environmental things that come from reconnection, this idea of reconnecting to nature being more beneficial than just growing food and just saving the planet, so to speak.

I think we're, we're opening up tonight, honestly, with this paper by Pesach. And with Marcus's work, a new era of thinking and conversation that is about accessing our positive potential as human beings through reconnection to nature. So I'm going to share first my sort of reading between the lines summary on pay socks paper, and ask him to respond. And then from there, we'll just talk through the many compelling points about that aspect of the paper.

And then in part two, we're going to ask to hear from Pesach and Marcus about what's also stated in pay socks paper, this idea of reclaimed connection to the lands connection to landline to indigeneity, that this is perhaps universally accessible. And in fact, Marcus's work really shows us that this experience is generating deep healing and space for compassion and growing self confidence and, and moving people into a better state. So we're gonna get into all this, I want to say one more sort of plug here. Please read the paper. When you have a moment. It is an elegantly written piece of scholarship. And as well check out Marcus's work. His team just won a $750,000 grant to expand what they're doing in one of the least food resource parts of the country. I think Marcus said a moment ago, that North Minneapolis where he lives and works is the fourth worst food desert or something like that in the United States.

Chris Searles 8:36
So okay, Pesach. Here's my quick summary.

In part one here at Pesach has identified the separation that occurred for Jews from nature. So in other words, I would say Pesach that we forgot, and that you have made this reconnection that we forgot that the temple is a metaphor for homelands. It's the place where Jews went when they could not be on their homelands, living in a sacred life.

And secondarily, because the Jewish exile over 2000 years ago, was out of literally, the most prolific and abundant part of the Fertile Crescent, where there was a lot of food and water and natural materials and ecological infrastructure. They were exiled from that place of abundance into the desert, a place of almost the opposite experience. And as mentioned before, and Esox expertise is in Eco psychology. And so he's particularly aware of how that shift and literal environment that these people were in, perhaps created a more adversarial relationship for practitioners of Judaism and nature, and at the same time, they were already sort of forced into a practice of ritualizing their Judaism into an institutionalized religion. In a temple that was a metaphor for homelands.

And so there was a deep, deep connection to indigeneity in the Jewish identity, the Jewish ancestral identity. And that's how I read this first breakthrough piece of the paper. Pesach. Can you kind of jump in and comment from there?

Dr. Pesach Chananiah (AUTHOR) 10:16
Sure, Chris. Yeah. So I probably wouldn't have phrased it exactly how you did. But I think I think that's really on point, I can share just a little bit of my exploration around around the topic. So I don't have any official formal training in Jewish Studies in rabbinic studies whatsoever. But about, gosh, maybe a dozen years ago, I was asked to, to teach 11 and 12 year olds, in a synagogue, again, no kind of background except for, you know, growing up Jewish.

And so I learned a lot through, you know, taking on that opportunity. And over the years, for various reasons, I kept on having opportunities to teach in Jewish religious schools and did a lot of exploration, myself, you know, in diving into texts, through showing up to Jewish religious experience, which I didn't, I grew up with a bit, you know, a lot of Jews, at least in the US, as I would imagine, is similar with folks of other religious traditions, kind of show up to synagogue a couple times a year, maybe practice a couple of holidays, but don't really have a deep connection or understanding. And so I've just been a student, I've just been, you know, curious to learn with others, and on my own.

And then, also, about a dozen years ago, I started graduate program in community liberation and eco psychology. And I had the privilege to really explore a lot through that program. And within, you know, the different classes that I would take in Eco psychology in liberation psychology, a lot of my work was exploring both Jewish dynamics and connection and disconnection to land. And so that that sort of resulted in a couple of fieldwork projects. And those are really what I explore in the paper is my trip to Israel, Palestine, which included 10 days of volunteering on Palestinian farms, and really trying to gain a sense, I similarly to not really growing up with a whole lot of connection to Judaism, whilst it didn't grow up with a whole lot of connection to the land, and at about age 27 really felt felt that need and so I had the opportunity to really experience permaculture farming, and really tried to learn how Palestinians are, are using that modality as sort of a response to occupation.

And then shortly after returning from that trip, the next year, I was doing fieldwork in Jewish environmental summer camps, and spent about a year mentoring in a Jewish rites of passage and wilderness exploration program with an organization called Wilderness Torah. And so that's the other piece that I really explore in the paper. And so kind of the, the thread that I use to tie all of those together is this concept of of tshuva, which oftentimes is translated as repentance, but I feel like a lot of us don't really connect to that concept, right? It's related to this idea of sin, which a lot of us might reject. And so, you know, to really dig into that, that concept, you know, the, the etymology of that word to tshuva, it means to return. Right?

And so we talk about it a lot during the Jewish High Holidays in terms of returning to, you know, our spiritual essence, right. And so, I was really looking at, at the practice of teshuva, the practice of returning, and how we can apply that to, to our relationship, to land to our relationship to each other, and really discovering what it could look like to take a Jewish approach and an eco psychology, psychological approach and put them together. There's some really great work out there, but not enough and so, you know, again, my my work and my exploration was really just out of my own curiosity and my own opportunity to really put myself as an object of research and discover what would come up as I was getting in touch with with both my ancestral heritage and and getting connected to the natural world.

Chris Searles 15:04
Yeah, Marcus, did you want to comment?

Mr. Marcus Kar (SPECIAL GUEST) 15:08
Well, I can definitely relate to that journey. You know, because I think I found a lot of the things I was looking for myself in nature. I mean, I've always been drawn to nature. I, you know, I grew up here in Minneapolis, but I left and join the military. And I put up right after I turned 16, and I graduate early, by 17, I was in boot camp and traveling around the world and experiencing things I that I never see, you know, being an open water and going from continent and countries, you know, realizing that most of the boogeyman I've heard about look like me pretty interesting. And then really accept start accepting myself, because a lot of older people that I encounter, throughout my life has always installed a sense of wisdom in me, from different cultures, different product of a lot of different people.

And my father, actually, every first son in my family has been a farmer. You know, my dad was born in West Africa, they own hundreds of acres of land, grown rubber fruits, and sugarcane and rice, and all these things, and that, that knowledge is slowly dissipating for my family, I found myself here, not by choice. I don't even know how I got here. But I realized I was really good at farming. It was my medicine and just my escape from like this world from from this, our society, I really kind of isolated and on farms, to be around like minded people just kind of growing and seeing like the fruits of our labor, being land stewards, you know. And, as a musician, I would tour play music when the sun is up. And then every chance I got I grew something. And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger. And I started learning from my father and his degree, agriculture, and his father, all these things.

So I, can relate to that journey of like, you know, really, everything that's happening right now comes from me, really digging inside myself, the time I spent in nature, really absorbing my own thoughts, you know, finishing my own thoughts, my own feelings, feeling my own feelings, asking myself questions and trying to process what's happening to me. In America,

Chris Searles 17:56
We come back to that in this second part, because I think that's exactly right, ... the transformation and the place of the process. You can definitely, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Mr. Kar 18:13
I was saying I can definitely relate, I mean, his journey, you know, not not being someone who's, who intended to be an expert or anything on this stuff, but really applying his own life to this process. And being a vessel and hopefully using that opportunity for people outside of his body to see the kind of quality of life or like the things they want for themselves, you know,

Chris Searles 18:43
Marcus, I'm gonna interrupt because this is where your expertise as a practitioner, like gets us where we want to go, in a sense, nation. And I want to ask Pesach, a couple more questions about the text and some specific quotes. And then we'll get back into more of where you just were, I think, as the again, it's this healing power. conversation that is kind of the subtext here that I see your life having demonstrated, and then your work demonstrating and Pesach, having experienced as he was sort of saying, through in search for identity and so forth. But I want to talk about that after we asked Pesach a few questions about these various quotes he chose.

And so Pesach here's here's a couple that I think really frame the significance of this. This separation from nature, idea of being a thing that, you know, we can we can absolutely say happened. So here's one of the quotes that the say as Benstein wrote, This is a quote from Ben Steen, the spiritual sophistication of the Jewish people was became to be seen or came to be seen embodied precisely in our ability to dispense with a homeland of soil and borders, and to live instead in the world at large, or in the text. And then you also say a maybe the next paragraph, for 1000s of years, we have been taught to focus on the words that were given, rather than the place in which they were given. Can you talk about that a little bit? Pesach?

Dr. Chananiah 20:30
Sure, I should pull up this exactly what you're talking about. So I can get the dates, right. But um, you know, and again, this is my study from from scholars from experts. And I'm really a layperson on these on these topics. And so I'm not promising to be 100% accurate, but my understanding is that, you know, up until the year 586 BCE, the experience of the ancient Israelites was surrounded around the ancient temple. And now what's left of that temple in Jerusalem is the Western Wall, there's one, and it's not even a wall from the temple, but it's sort of the, the external barrier.

And so when, when that temple was destroyed by the Babylonians, they sent the vast majority of Israelites into exile in, you know, the larger Babylonian Empire. And a lot of Judaism was was developed during during that period and changed a lot because those individuals no longer had access to the temple where certain secretive rights were happening, sort of animal sacrifice, right, the types of practices that we no longer practice. 70 years later, the Israelites were allowed back into their ancestral homelands, they rebuilt the temple. And so for another 500 years or so, they were to some extent continuing to practice those rituals. And then the Romans destroyed the temple in the year 70, of the Common Era. And at that point, the rabbis no longer having access, the rabbi's are teachers

Rabbi means teacher, right?

And so the religion went from a practice of, of priests of priestly rights to a practice of teaching. So there was this focus on on the Torah, right? We, in the synagogue these days have this really amazing scroll all over the world, it's exactly the same scholars take great care in writing this, this scroll. And there's such an emphasis in the Jewish world of reading both the Torah, which is the Five Books of Moses, the other books, of what some would consider the Old Testament, and extensive commentary and commentary the, the Mishnah, and Gomorrah and all these books that the rabbi's read and study over and over again, and that young Jews in school will read and debate about and you know, we inherit all of these, these amazing stories, and those of us all, who are in the Western tradition, know many of these stories, right? The Exodus story of Moses, perhaps some of the other stories of the forefathers like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Dr. Chananiah 23:44
And, you know, so just to respond to that, quote, that you offered, Chris. Judaism is seem to be a result of innovation of those early rabbis of needing to adapt from a people focused on this central temple, and these ancient rituals, and instead really become focused on on laws.

And, you know, you can you can look at the example of the way that religious Jews observe Shabbat, the Sabbath, there's so many laws, right. And that's so much the central of the centrality of the religion today is focused on the laws on textual study, bate. And many would argue that, that, despite the importance of those rituals, we simultaneously have lost a connection with the earth.

And I think that again, those of us in the Western tradition, and those of us really across the globe, from every tradition, have lost a connection to the earth and So my interest that I'm exploring in this paper is where in our tradition in our stories, both, you know, what I would call the myths of, of the Torah, but also of maybe these more recent stories of Hasidic masters, like where can we find experience of connection to the earth. And so, one one example that I explore is Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, was known for the practice of heat boda doot, which really is time alone, outside speaking to the divine. And so, you know, some of us, I think, who have connection to the earth can relate to that, that when we're outside, especially, you know, under trees, especially, you know, under the night sky, we can really access spirituality in a way that's very different from how we might do under a roof. Reading.

You know, it's, it's really different in so just just to wrap up, sometimes when I'm at the synagogue for Shabbat service, and there's a period where, you know, it's an individual prayer, right, and people are reading, I put my book down, and maybe they're reading for five minutes or so. And I just like, run outside, and I do my own my own prayers under the sky. And I get just a minute in that service of that practice of heat. But

Chris Searles 26:37
let me ask you one more thing about this. There's a quote here, I don't, I don't know the word and the reference that takes that even maybe a little more specifically, you talk about leading Hasidic mystics and their disciples spent time in nature to cleave to the divine. While the vast majority of the world's Jews read the stories of our ancestral figures, nomads who had numinous experiences in the wilderness, we have by and large lost the sense that we too might experience Devey coot? What is the bay coot? Is that unique to nature. There's also this great line in your writing where you say, you know, is it possible that our evolution towards being quote, the people of the book has left us lacking a connection with the potential raw awesomeness of spiritual experience often occurring in the outdoors in the wilderness? So yeah, so what is the debate? Is that only available outdoors? What does that sort of mean?

Dr. Chananiah 27:35
It is it is not. It's just generally understood. As you know, the the word that I use here is cleaning. Right? cleaving to the divine. There's Sorry, I was just trying to turn they're similar words,

Chris Searles 27:50
beautiful sounding language and cleaving is such a powerful word. So yeah, go ahead and talk about.

Dr. Chananiah 27:58
And, you know, again, I think that it's interesting to juxtapose the experience of having a tradition that is very much focused on, on prayers in a book, with this concept of cleaving, like sometimes again, I closed the book, and I just hug it not that there's necessarily anything you know, special about about the book, it has prayers and so great, but it's just some some way to kind of wrap wrap my arms around around myself, right. And just in in terms of the this concept of nomads who had numinous experiences in the wilderness. We have these stories early on in the Torah of Abraham being told by this divine voice ... (MARCUS PUTS ON HIS PRAYER SHAWL)

And I love that shawl, Marcus, that's, that's beautiful. That's I would say, that's another example, right?...

Sometimes I take my shawl and just wrap it around myself, right? Abraham has told like, Go, and the language, it's letlet Ha, the Hebrew it sort of means like, go and go to yourself. And so what he does is he leaves the land of his ancestors. And he just travels. And one of the first places that he winds up and I talk about this a little bit in the article is, he winds up at alone more rat. And I learned from this this great, Rabbi Zella golden, who started this organization wilderness Torah that I volunteered with, that, often times that word is translated almost always is translated as the terabits of MALLRAT no one knows what a terabit is. And it's just terabit the Murrah, but when you translate a loan more and if you ask a fifth grader who knows some Hebrew, it means teacher tree, right? So Abraham leaves the land he grew up in, he goes traveling in the wilderness, and he winds up at it the feet of a teacher tree at the roots, right and so we wonder it's not clear in the text. We wonder what did Abraham do it at teacher tree, right?

We similarly know the story of Moses, you know, tending his flock of sheep, and just being overcome by this burning bush, right. And some would say, oh, maybe he had some kind of special plant, this psychedelic plant, then exists out there. And that's how that happened. We don't really know.

But there are so many stories, and I can I can point to others as well. So many stories, these myths in the Jewish tradition, where the connection with the Divine happens outside, right, and we talk about these myths as if that was something that happened in ancient times, it used to mean something. Right? And now we don't do that right now. We just talk about it. And so the the opportunity that I'm presenting the horizon that I think this this approach brings is, what could it mean to meld our spiritual traditions and the stories, the opportunities, the possibilities that they present, to actually being outside?

If I know that this happened to my ancestors to the midst in my tradition, could I potentially also be able to experience divinity just because I, I get out there because I left law? And you know, in my experience, yes, in my experience, it really did require first just being outside spending more time on my parents balcony as a, as a teenager and through the years on my own balcony, or just wandering in the forest. Or, you know, I'm just getting out there and that's where the Divinity happens in my experience much more than either reading or being under a roof although it can happen there Do they could can happen anywhere where we let the divine in, but the wilderness and I'd be curious to hear you know how others on this call experienced that too. But the wilderness it makes it I think really accessible

Chris Searles 32:18
Beautiful. . . Marcus, if you want to jump in, I mean, I have a bridge over. But that's really a great bridge to this idea that there are non environmental benefits to connecting to the other life on the lands around us and the spirituality of our ecosystems. Do you want to comment Marcus?

Mr. Kar 32:35
Well, I think it's all a part of it, I think is all one thing, right? So I think everything this way is one thing and it's interesting, like i i So one of the most impactful people in my life was a man still alive is in Israel right now. His name is Avi reason. And he owned a business here. You know, selling and designing emergency lighting systems. And Aubree pretty much taught me how to take myself seriously. And one thing he one thing he installed in me is you know, like, like, you were just saying, you know, the stories I grew up in a very religious household. And I think over the years, I started finding my own answers, like you say, outside amongst people in plant medicine, I made the sky and, and the one thing he told me was, you know, the Bible or like any word, written must consider the Word of God is literally you got instruction menu for all to live, how to be a better version of yourself. Doesn't have to be literal.

The house I grew up in, I think, many ways people took it literally. Because it's just a Western thing. You, you do all the sin during the week and then Sunday, you are forgiven for it, or something, you know, whereas, um, there's another old man who lives across the street from here and it's things is Dean, he's the old Vietnam War vet. He's like, it's like a father to me, you know? And he's Muslim. But he told me that sin has a source the word itself, you know, before it was sin, he says, all it was, is a scenario. Anything you can possibly imagine is is sin. And I really gotta throw me off a little bit, you know, I have like pretty crazy conversations just being in gardens and in community and walking around. And this intergenerational and cultural mix of things have created, like, some form of wisdom in me, but I always keep those things they tell me like very close, and they walk, you know, alone in nature, you know, really processing what they mean, you know, they were here before me, they must know something. So, it's interesting, and you have like, such a deep history, there are people that have left language and information about your, you know, generations of your people.

And I find that to be rich.

Because I started learning about mine, and I'm like, Whoa, like, this is why I'm kind of weird. And like a little more, I have a thing about me, and it's not average, okay. I think it's because of knowledge itself. And the nothingness that I know I am. And I find that to be powerful, and all the disadvantage and things that we look at, I find to be a distraction, because all those disadvantages has become my absolute advantage, the adversity,

Chris Searles 36:21
Living in North Minneapolis? the social issues?

Mr. Kar 36:25
I mean, living in America, as a black man in my skin.

Chris Searles 36:29
thank you.

Mr. Kar 36:30
I served this country, I'm a decorated war vet, I been home since my mom had a stroke, I got home, and I really wanted to show her something else, you know, than working three, four jobs to surviving.

Most people in my community are constantly in the fight or flight. And they're constantly surviving, whether they have to move because they can't afford the cost of living in places they've been living their whole lives. Or they're trying to survive from organ failure due to the amount of things they're consuming, or they're becoming, they're, they're losing the size of their space, because of the things they're consuming physically. Right. So like, they're buying the furniture before the House and the cars and fancy name brand and things. And all that doesn't mean anything. I'm really love being a creative, because everything I have has real value. And may not be much to the worst of the world. But I really appreciate everything I have in my life has been very blessed this way. And yeah, I'd love to talk to you more by your studies, because this is like, interesting.

I tend to absorb information from a lot of people. And when you were talking just now you reminded me of Aubrey, just because he was probably one of the most gentle human beings I've ever met, at the same time, the most direct and honest. One thing he told me is stop apologizing. Why do you apologize all the time? Who know because I, you know, I'm sorry, I got in your way I was in your way. And his thing is like, well, if you keep apologizing for something that petty, what happens when you really mean it, I'm not going to believe you. And I always that sat with me for the rest of my life. The best gift anyone could ever give me is to be honest, and be direct with me. And I really value simple things like that, you know,

Chris Searles 38:40
I want to jump in because I think I can I can tie that exceptionally important point to the conversation. You and I were having Marcus on the phone an hour, huh? Yeah, and, and essentially one of your main themes as you're talking about your work with youth, it's always about being honest, talking to them, you know, from a direct place.

Mr. Kar 39:01
It's based on trust to you know, like, they trust me to be a direction. I think nowadays people have taking that phrase, you know, get down to their level of meet them where they are a little bit too literally, because I want my teachers to know something.

Chris Searles 39:22
There's so much respect in this honesty you're talking about for yourself. and the person you're trying to communicate with, it's about building, like you said earlier

Mr. Kar 39:29
Its about building; they look at me for direction or like, as you know, you know, a place of safety is a very spiritual thing for us. You know, like I tried to take away the trauma that has been installed in us and when they come to RSP we create these spaces safe spaces, their tools. No farms, gardens.

Chris Searles 39:51
Yeah. Do you mean the farms and gardens are the safe spaces?

Mr. Kar 39:54
Yes. They're all tools in inner cities for me and children that run around with me is that If I want them to come there, I want them to be free to fail without feeling like the world is ending. I want them to be able to talk to me, like, I'm their equal, because I'm literally looking for them to take my job. Because I'm not married to it. And I want to, I want them to be able to go around the world and, and have conversations with like minded people about, you know, the experiences, they had learning life learn skills in places like North Minneapolis, in their nothingness, not based on what they paid for. This is not normal, this is starting to become more transactional, what I'm what I've been doing on the ground seems like everyone is looking for a job and things like that. But what they don't realize is, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get us all the lift, so we don't need a job. . .

Chris Searles 40:53
Let me just give listeners a little more context... what we were talking about earlier was this idea that you and I and probably Pesach are musicians, and we sort of see this visceral value, we seek meaning in our lives, and we seek these real connections. And so, you know, this is what I hear you talking about, in a way, it's like, that's all here. All of that stuff is rich in the garden.

Mr. Kar 41:15
Nature is Abundance, there is enough room and space for everybody.

And it's funny that we do think that there are people that try to control how much you have access to or who is allowed and who isn't, you know, in Minnesota, you know, I forgot the number of farmers there are in Minnesota, but how many of them are black? And why aren't there many black farmers, you know, and things like that. But like I was telling you before, the reason why I feel like I'm able to be a part instead of in to control or be the boss or whatever, is literally because of the creative part of me, I come from a place where I've always been a part of rhythm or harmony. When I was sad. I was singing. And I was happy. I was singing. When I'm sitting on the phone with you I'm sitting with a gift to Nelly. There's a banjo somewhere, no other things. And it's always been that way for me.

So any process I'm invited into, I'm listening. And I hear it. And it's not because I'm the best musician, it's because I'm listening and I'm willing. So the best things come out of the coalition of the women. This way in the process, the end result is to get to the end on the same frequency. And I feel like that's what we're lacking. When we take that I was telling you earlier that the artists mind and spirit is same as an indigenous or village concept. To me, just because what was the scenario I used I was like, well, a guy digging a well in a village doesn't divide up the jobs for who brings the shovel and who pours the water who's like making the food. Everyone digs jumps in some people make the food some people set the table, some people pour your water, but the end result is you hit that aquifer and we have water.

Chris Searles 43:26
And the other thing you were saying was that big picture is the main idea here. Everyone's part of the same big picture that is what's happening and just to shuba this the time Pesach spent with the youth he's worked with. Maybe also when when you went over to Gaza Strip, do you want to I'm going to interrupt you, Marcus and as Pesach to jump in and talk some more maybe about that experience. Go into Gaza strip with a lot of these feelings. I mean, again, Marcus, you're, you're like so evolved in your ability to articulate where this takes people and how it helps people. So I want to come back to you again in a second and hear Pesach talk a little bit about that emotional experience in Gaza Strip and the sort of compassion that came through this reconnection to the land in a new way. And we're really now I'll say one more thing. We're we're definitely deeply in part two, we transitioned well into that almost exactly on time. But we're just flowing, we're flowing, but I think, for the listeners, This is part two: This is the power of reconnection.

So Pesach,,,,reconnection. And one of the stories he tells personal stories he tells in this auto ethnography essay is about how he went into Gaza Strip as a Jew, and basically said, I'm sorry, I love you. And, you know, I'll let you take it from there.

Dr. Chananiah 44:47
Thanks, Chris. There was something that I heard you say a few minutes ago, Marcus that I want to respond to. Before I do that. I just want to clarify, I was in the West Bank, not Gaza Strip. And I just clarify that because first territories are very different. And I'm not going to get into it because I'm not an expert there. But the West Bank is an occupied territory, fairly close to also the Palestinian territory of East East Jerusalem. And, and and I had an awakening. And of my senior year in college, which I talked about in the article, and I just realized that I needed to contribute in that land and do something and, and do something with land. And I didn't know exactly what that would look like.

But what I want to respond about that you said earlier, Marcus, was this, this concept of of sin, right. And I think that so many of us don't really relate to it. I mean, it feels very, very judgy. Right, it's very make wrong. And I grew up as a Jewish kid hearing that word, but as a teacher of Jewish youth, I would always explain to them that the better translation for the the Hebrew word, which is usually translated as sin is cut. And really what it means is missing the mark. Hmm. And the solution to missing the mark that I'm talking about in this article is to tshuva is returning right? If I'm trying to be right there, and I go here, all I got to do is come back. Right. And so I'm hearing that in what you're saying, in, in working with youth as a guide, right, and helping them not to feel necessarily feel bad about missing the mark, but it's just, like, just just learn how to write back. Yes. Right. And, um, and I appreciate that, like, don't apologize for everything, because sometimes you really need to win.

And in, in the Jewish tradition, and around this holiday of Yom Kippur War, where you really see this word to shuba, there is an emphasis on, on apologizing, on repentance on making amends. And so I do think that that's that that's an important component sometimes. And so, you know, that's what you were referring to Chris was, I was trying to discover, with this burden that I carried around Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories, how can I in my little way, feel like I was making amends. And for me, just in my own little way that I could, oh, I can help to water these plants. On this Palestinian farm, right. There's all kinds of actions by Israeli settlers and military of cutting down plants in Palestinian lands, which by the way, both goes against and I talk about this both goes against Israeli law, and Jewish religious law. But it's a pretty effective

Chris Searles 48:02
and is destructive and abusive for all the wrong reasons

Dr. Chananiah 48:06
yeah... a pretty effective technique of colonization. And so for me to just be able to attend to these olive trees was huge. And I remembered this mantra that I learned from a book, it's a Hawaiian practice, whole oponopono and the way I learned it is simply I love you. I'm sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. And so again, that's, that's a way when I've taught Jewish youth, how do we do to shuba? How do we, you know, miss the mark, and come back? You know, that's, that's a real simple, simple way. The other thing I just want to share quickly, I do in in addition to having a Jewish practice, I have a Muslim practice a Buddhist and yoga practice. I'm pretty interfaith myself.

And I happened to be at the mosque last Friday for Juma and as I'm leaving the mosque, I see that the building right next to it, it's a little little Mosque, the historic West Side in Vegas, historically, black community. There's a building next to it, and there's this beautiful tree, and at the roots of the tree is all this trash. Like, man, we just got done praying. And then I'm looking, and there's all this trash into the tree. And I admit, I didn't do anything I just got in my car and left, right. But it just occurs to me that one thing we can do if we are expressing care for, for God's creation for the holiness of the earth. You know, I don't have to get mad at anybody. I don't have to do nothing. But I could just go and pick up that trash. Right? I could just do it, make that amends. Do that to shuba just in though in the little way and it doesn't have to be like going across the world. And you know, trying to make a difference on some with some other people's existence, it could just be in, you know, it doesn't hurt at all. Right? Yeah. So I just you know, that's in some I'm hearing that again, Marcus with with your teaching of youth with with gardening is like just such a great opportunity to, to coach or a guide around like, how do you get get back on

Mr. Kar 50:21
Everything is literally medicine and when you talk about that tree, you know, the biggest part of my summer is literally picking up our environment. So we got to prep spaces and create. So like I just give the lecture on this where I was talking about healthy environments, and it's like everyone feels like they're entitled to one in America. But what they don't understand is this is nature and in nature, you have to create a healthy environment. That's why we have predators and prey, and things in the dark, lurking and things in Unlight we got to create an environment to be a part of those things. And I tell people like what if you planted all these watermelons, someone come and smash them? What don't you do that make you angry? It's like, well, no, we just play them back. And if I find out who did it, I give them an opportunity to give back. So maybe they put it back.

This is all a part of programming. There's no need for reaction.

But there's something you said that was like, That resonated with me. And it was about, you know, reconciling and returning. So though, this is a problem we've been having here in America for the longest, you know, between this idea of white and black, who in America, do we have this duality, right, wrong, better, worse, winner, loser, white, black. And one thing I know about my community is that there's a very little choice trust because of the historic narrative when it comes to like institutions, when it comes to dominant perspective and white supremacy, and how just predatory things just kind of take over the entire existence of people that look like me. I mean, they're every day they're moving, trying to get further and further away or closer and closer to their rest. And I think that's a mental I mean, that's the impact of slavery in this country. And what happened to black people in this country was still happening to black people in this country. And I have these conversations with people around culture building, right, which has really, really focused on the white and black part is really us, you know, comes from the word uni community. Right? means one only for one can come to, right.

And we talked about Reconciliation, and people talking about Reparations, and all these things. And to tell you the truth. You know, while black people will love an opportunity to catch up economically in this country, or have opportunities to actually create their own possibilities, all they really need is to be protected. And for people to acknowledge that the impact of systematic oppression in this country is real. It's not equal to anything is not equal to anything in this country. I don't understand it.

So we talk about reconciliation and self correct. And this is the part of it where this is how I got to nature is because I decided that I didn't need that. You know, I got tired of arguing that is this really happening to me and I like a well decorated person being thrown on the ground on my face right now. With no apologies afterwards, just pick up your stuff and leave. Right.

And I start seeing people that look like me becoming an interpretation of that same oppression, off to feel safe to have control. But the only place I found control was nature. It was where I could go and scream out loud and it's an empty void and it's also fold and everything felt it. And I became a part of everything is where I could cry is where I could laugh is where I could process what's happening here on a human level and how to approach people because we're all a little bit sick. In my community, so I approach

Chris Searles 54:40
Let me just jump in to say : you're you're a process person. This is what part of your practitioner message is first and foremost: relationships and process. And then I'm also curious, though, about where you are right now what you're talking about your kind of personal story where you came from wherever you were to where you are now. Yeah, we're the nature engagement. Because the leader in Minneapolis, you just had this meeting today where you secured this food policy with for the whole city. And you know, we're various things going on, you're a leader, but you weren't, for a long time, probably?

Mr. Kar 55:17
I didn't name myself that I think people have given me that title is a community leader or like a food champion. And with the help of all these people on the homegrown food council here in the city of Minneapolis, I've been able to grow and learn a lot more about what's happening to me and what's happening in our food systems. But the idea of recommendation, your

Chris Searles 55:39
your experience of healing in the garden in nature, where you can yell and cry, and laugh, and share that with the youth that you're working with today is that

Mr. Kar 55:47
I'm trying to share that with my entire environment, anyone who is willing, I'm here for and everyone is invited here. And I think I fall on that level of humility, and like just a passion for what I do. In my enduring despair. You know, I don't want kids growing up experiencing anything I have, I don't want to pass my trauma on and have be stuck in this idea that I'm lesser than, but what I want to do is enjoy myself as I am. And I share it with everyone. And just so happened in my environment has seen and absorbed and accepted that for what it is like it's okay, for there to be people that thinks that I'm not human. But the idea of reconciliation, is where I am, because I've had this conversation this week, this is great. And we're gonna have more of this conversation. Because I don't know how to explain how to reconcile. There's,

I don't need Reconciliation, when it comes to the historic narrative, what I need now is the ability to spend the rest of my life enjoying and producing and creating my own healthy environment.

And that will impact everyone around me and give them the same opportunity if I can actually stay focused and not be distracted by, you know, the trauma of it all. And is here, all I can do is hold people we cry together and talk and laugh together. And be present, not present for reason for money or some kind of expertise. But just because we're being. And I been trying to figure out how to approach this idea of reconciliation, because I don't really feel like any, you know, body is like, currently responsible for. And I think it's a one person or one kind of people responsible for some of the trauma inflicted on black people in this country. Presently I think it use a historic narrative is this is what it was. And we're living in a system design to uphold that history.

And everything I'm doing is fighting that narrative and trying to be honest, look, the people are holding that, that history and hiding behind, you know, their false sense of superiority, I want to be able to name the impact of it on me and move on. I don't want I don't hate, I don't have the ability to hate anybody. I think that's too heavy of a thing to bear for anyone. But it's so deeply rooted in my culture that I really, you know, I really, you know, I really, you know, I'm sympathetic to like black people in this country. And everything I'm doing is to hold them high and try to lift the spirit, and that the land has given me the tools and the ability to do that. And every time I see their faces, I see God I said, whatever, you know, thing you worship, I see. And nature has given me the ability to understand what that looks like. And I am learning constantly now, especially from younger people where they live, this intergenerational thing is actually the best form of education I can ever imagine. So I when you said reconciliation, just kind of like a walk in it woke up that conversation I had recently and I told these people I don't know what they do. We're like, well, what does reconciliation how do we get how do we start over and get back and it's like, again...

Chris Searles 59:53
How do we move forward together?

Mr. Kar 59:54
How do we move forward?
That's the thing.
Now we don't want to move backwards, or I mean...

Chris Searles 59:58
I'm gonna interrupt Marcus also, because we want to invite people to q&a. So if you if you'd like to ask a question, maybe let us know in the chat, and then we'll open up your mic in a moment. And yeah, let me

Mr. Kar 1:00:17
I just want to say I really love the narrative of reconciliation, in your experience, to all your practices, because I think there's, there's something there of substance and truth that really needs to be heard. And I don't think is a, you know, just a Jewish thing. I think it's a human thing. I think that's your study. I think I really appreciate that about you. I can't wait to talk to you more. Yeah,

Chris Searles 1:00:47
yeah. Okay, look, that's a great way to talk. We don't have any questions popping up yet on the chat. So I'm gonna read another summary from the paper for both of you guys to sort of comment on and maybe this will spur a question or two. And it relates directly to what you just said, Marcus. So this is going back to pay socks paper. And I kind of highlighted four key words here, the words are place, possibility, universal and indigenous. And so we can maybe sort of land here. And here's the quotes that one you've heard, and it'll frame Well, the the other three.

(Quoting the paper:) For 1000s of years, we have been taught to focus on the words that were given, rather than the place they were given - from Rabbi Korngold.

And then Rabbi Coleman Coleman says something that sounds a lot like Marcus says, Pesachs framing of this
(Quoting the paper:) This inquiry into place, and selfhood presents a profound possibility and exploration and then here's the quote, of the awesome mystery of the things we are usually moving too fast to see. During which time we acquire a profound respect for the plants and animals we come to know intimately. Hmm, yeah, that sounds like Marcus. And then.

And then here's a great quote that is Pesach sort of framing eco psychology in a way from his cultural identity, that (Quoting the paper:) Situating culture within nature. This work moves beyond the particular cultural experience of diasporic Ashkenazi Jews like myself, and verges into, perhaps, and verges into the perhaps universal human condition of relationship to land and psyche.

And then, lastly, and of course, that, of course, society and psyche, self and psyche, but land is this element we have excluded in our, you know, Western narrative, or biosphere, I would say in my language. And then the fourth quote here, to your point again, Marcus,
(Quoting the paper:) In today's world, Jews have the opportunity to make any locale, their access moody, to become indigenous, anywhere on Earth. Yes. So I see you exemplifying that. I hear you saying that, I'd love to hear Pesach, if you want to comment on that summary. I know, I kind of read it slowly. But we have, you know, 15 more minutes here to kind of talk through these ideas of indigeneity, and so forth.

Dr. Chananiah 1:03:17
Not sure where to start except to say that, you know, I appreciate Chris you reading some of the quotes that I borrowed from others, because, you know, so much of this work was from my own exploration, and you know, my own fulfilling of my curiosity, and then just kind of like stringing together what I learned

Chris Searles 1:03:36
It is an incredible threading that you do, bringing all these elements together, I think,

Dr. Chananiah 1:03:41
Thanks, brother. I appreciate that. It was it's been fun over the years, to do that right to figure some of this stuff out. And so, you know, that quote from Rabbi Commons is him talking about that practice of HEBO. To do and the exploration that I had, there was, you know, when we're training like the the practice, one of the practices that we were teaching, these 11 and 12 year olds who happen to be Jewish kids to do is to be able to sit outside at the foot of these huge red woods or what have you. And just be there for minutes, right, maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes. And then sometimes I've like to, we have this great, I wish I I brought my ram's horn, but we have this great ram's horn that makes this awesome sound. It's usually only blown a couple times in the Jewish year, but I would tell these kids, you know, when you hear the sound of our ancestors, you can come back and so they would just be on their own out, they'd find a spot.

And so it's like, we're always moving so fast, right? We're always looking in the way I have my phone right here. I'm always looking at my phone like this close, right, I'm trying to typing fast But when I can get out into the wilderness, I can just be at such a slow pace, right. And I can just experience the relaxation of seeing the wind move through the trees. And I'm really blessed, privileged and grateful to have that, you know, to learn how to do that in my 20s, and 30s. And so to be able to invite 11 and 12 year olds to get that is just like a phenomenal gift. And like, the work that you're doing in markets of working with with young people, and helping them to see that like, way earlier than we did, I think is, is huge.

And so yeah, just just to go back to that point, I just happen in this paper to talk about the Jewish experience, because that's one of the things I was exploring in my graduate studies and one of the identities that I have, and it's just kind of like, the land, like my access point. But really, all the practices that I share are accessible to everybody. And it's really our shared our shared connection to the earth. And our shared connection around food is one of the things and I'd say the third, maybe, I mean, there's probably a few things that all humans can, can relate to right food, we live in lands as long as we can acknowledge it. And I think the other one is dreams. We all have dreams, we all sleep. And so so that's kind of my background is in depth psychology, which like first and foremost is very much about about dreams. And I was just sharing with my wife, like, most of us humans, we don't talk we don't share about dreams, right? We feel like really, I think I'm intimidated to talk about our dreams with each other and to talk about our relationship to land or disconnection to land with each other. And so, yeah, I'm just interested in exploring the practices that I've discovered, and how we can we can all connect on on getting reconnected to the earth to the natural, the more and more than human or other than human world.

Chris Searles 1:07:20
Let me ask one more thing, before Marcus jumps in, do you have a sense of indigeneity? Now, would you say that you feel more of that person feel to be more of that person, the paper begins so beautifully with you on, you know, talking about your youth looking at the stars, from your parents house. And, and, you know, trying to reconcile this a different type of reconciliation, this compelling sense of connection to the stars, with, as Marcus is saying, you know, the traumatic world that we live in the world that we live in, and, and so now you I think you have really found a very credible connection. And then you've also engaged in these practices, these new rituals, new embodied rituals. So that's what I met, you know, more connected, more, more of a sense of indigeneity now than you did as a child or something.

Dr. Chananiah 1:08:08
Yeah, for sure.

So, a couple a couple of things on that. One is that, um, the time that I was writing, writing this, it's been it's been a while since I first started developing this work. It was like 10 years ago, when I left, I grew up mostly in Las Vegas. And I had just left Vegas and moved to the Bay Area. And so I was very, you know, I was like, like Abraham Lincoln, aha, like, I left the land of my ancestors, and went out into the wilderness that I didn't know. And I was in the Bay Area, I was in Berkeley in San Francisco, which is just so different from Vegas. So I was really, you know, had the opportunity, almost like from nothing starting from scratch to reinvent myself to explore identity to get connected to, to the unique environment. That's, that's out there. And so, you know, over the years, I've moved a lot. And I've continued to sort of like, adapt to the different environments that I've been in. So that's, that's one thing.

The other thing I want to share, I'm prepared with just a couple of books. That and I only quoted this one once a bit. But nature and the human soul by Bill Plotkin has been huge for me, I at first, I didn't understand a lot of my experience. And then when I read this book, I did much more. And he talks about eco awakening, how many of us have this experience of awakening to the natural world and in hindsight, that is what I, what happened to me when I was on my parent's balcony or even taking the trash out. At night in my little suburban community, and just seeing the vastness of the sky, there was an eco awakening.

And Plotkin talks about talks about how that sort The first step in coming to terms with our own unique soul experience. And he really talks about how getting connected, connected to nature is essential in getting connected to our he calls it soul or mythopoetic, unique, eco niche. And so yeah, over over the last 10 years through my exploration of, of nature and psyche, I do feel like I have really gotten kind of clear about who I am. And I'm still discovering that. And, you know, the last thing I'll say about that, and again, Plotkin talks about how there's certain kind of tasks of each part of our lives that we need to meet. And really, that middle childhood, you know, from, like, age four, or five, when we sort of develop our ego selves. through puberty, it's really important to have a connection to the natural world. And I really didn't. And so it was at age 2728, when I kind of filled in that gap. And a big part of that, for me, was getting involved with wilderness Torah, and mentoring these 11 and 12 year olds, and even though I was, you know, more than twice their age, and I was a mentor for them, on some level, I was on the same journey of connection to nature with them. And I was really intimidated when I first started going camping, and getting myself just real vulnerable in the wilderness. And just the impact, the positive impact that had on my my psyche is tremendous.

Chris Searles 1:11:40
Okay, Marcus, I want to pass that over to you. Because, you know, there's so much going on in this conversation, but the sort of one of the strong links to what I hear you saying about being black, in this culture, and what Pesach just said this, this experience of being in wilderness in nature, engaging with kids, and as a mentor, all that led into if I'm quoting you correctly, play soccer, paraphrasing you, like a stronger sense of your own identity, you feel like stronger in yourself now. Okay, hey, Pesach is nodding. And then Marcus, we talked earlier a few days ago, you're talking about one of your kids calling you from college or whatever, and telling you how he's managing this really rough situation. And I when I would you know, when you talk about that, to me, I hear you talking about these kids have developed life skills, through the stronger sense of identity through the relationships through the process, all the stuff that you're about.

Mr. Kar 1:12:36
It's funny, you know, like, just just to connect, you know, what you saw previously, is, it's funny. The dynamic here is that the impact of major on anyone from every different walks is the same. If you're really there's no, your experiences in nature is exactly what what I'm aiming to do here in North Minneapolis is balance out the benefits of nature, because that balance has been tilted. Right.

So my kids are learning how to feel their feelings in green spaces, how to really process what's happening to them instead of reacting, right. Whereas you're talking about going camping, and you love being outside and stuff, but I know enough kids and black people in this neighborhood that would not go camping, right because of their fear of what would happen if they go camping. And we're not talking about what would happen because of nature, what would happen because of humans, the invasive species. For them, there's some trauma, being alone and isolated. And I'm trying to get rid of that way of thinking not by moving physically, but by being still here and creating version of nature.

There's organic patterns in nature. And I gotta tell you, while they're like different approaches, they all have the same meaning. And I appreciate you sharing that experience growing up and when you talk about you know, feeling stronger as an adult, and I feel like I've always been an indigenous person because I was raised in my mother's house. Even though I was raised in America, I had to go home. So what was happening out in the world didn't matter because my mom had installed in me that need to have respect and you know, come home in a certain time and eat certain food. She cooked a certain food she taught me how to cook. Kids don't know where their fries come from these days. And what we're doing is trying to give them the rose needed to actually process these things and learn how to grow everything.

So the questions posed to them is like, what can you grow? Most people name plants and foods and this and that. But really, the ones that are really thinking will tell you relationships, community possibilities, every thing. And that's what I'm aiming to do here is use food as a tool to create social change in the My immediate environment. And I appreciate the opportunity to be able to share that with you guys. And I hope whoever watches this talk and really tried to see, you know, that while we're two from two different places, and two different people were really the same in a lot of ways. And I appreciate the fact that I had opportunity to met you. Because I'm hoping we can build and grow from here, man

Dr. Chananiah 1:15:58

Mr. Kar 1:16:00
In the woods somewhere sometime, you know, play some music or whatever. I got you. And yeah, thank you for this opportunity. Crush. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Chananiah 1:16:12
Thank you so much, Chris, and Marcus. And for your help, Katie. I love I'm in Vegas, Chris, you're in Austin, right? And Marcus, you're in Minneapolis. And so we're all all over the country, really? And maybe maybe at some point we meet in person and do exactly what you said. Yeah,

Mr. Kar 1:16:30
Let's go to all the places we go. Right?

Chris Searles 1:16:35
That sounds great. Yeah, thank you. Until then we zoom. And I'll wrap this up real fast guys, because, you know, everyone's got limited time. So I'm gonna do a real quick wrap up here by saying thank you again, put to both of you. Thanks to Katie for helping us out thanks to the audience for being here. And again, to the listening people out there, this content.

These two gentlemen came to me through the all creation project, I was editor of the most recent issue called envisioning transformation. And so you can go to to read pay stocks paper, to listen to Marcus more in depth in his interview, and just really encourage you to do that and get on board with this fuller life experience we're having through finding our connectedness to nature in new ways that I know I didn't start my life out. Thinking was available as a person raised in Christian culture. And I'm excited about this new era of connection for people of faith. People have their self defined outlook, people who are anti faith, or whatever, I think this, this Teshuvah and this reconnection, and all these things that we're seeing in the work and in the academics, I think this is for everyone.

Pesach, you know, you really rocked it. You really changed the world with this paper, I think, and Marcus, you're changing the world every moment with these kids.

I sure hope we get a chance to interview you guys more because you really are two of the best leaders we have, each in your own way. So thanks again. Appreciate you. And, everybody else:Thanks for listening and tuning in. We'll see you next time.