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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;25
Aaron
Chris, are you still calling your AI Slave bots? But why?
00;00;20;27 - 00;00;24;19
Chris
Because they have no free will of their own. And they just have to do what I tell them.
00;00;24;26 - 00;00;33;11
Pri
Chris, when you're like I but ends up taking a robot body, it's going to be a little terrifying. I saw this, like, robot body.
00;00;33;12 - 00;00;35;29
Aaron
Oh, yeah. Didn't they get into a fight or something?
00;00;36;02 - 00;00;51;21
Pri
Yeah. Did you see the like, in China? This guy, this, like, robot was trying to. It was like beating. It was like punching this guy's motorcycle and getting really close to him. And then another one I saw, like, a robot trying to cook, and he, like, destroyed the entire kitchen and, like, broke everything. That's going to be you, Chris.
00;00;51;23 - 00;01;25;06
Chris
Okay. I mean, maybe the people want to give these these things like future forward features and they don't have them today. They're they're literally giant autocorrect machines. And so like, you know, if one day, we figure out how to and do you sentient entities, I'll change my tune. But it's literally a very complex piece of software capable of doing math at astronomical, you know, speeds to guess the right answer.
00;01;25;06 - 00;01;34;29
Chris
The questions like, you know, there's nothing else underneath the hood of these things. They're giant. Look up and get in prediction machine. So I'm sorry about slave bots.
00;01;34;29 - 00;01;37;24
Aaron
It is what happens if you're wrong. And there is I'm.
00;01;37;24 - 00;01;39;14
Chris
Not wrong because I understand.
00;01;39;14 - 00;01;40;12
Aaron
Mystical.
00;01;40;14 - 00;01;41;16
Chris
Terminology.
00;01;41;19 - 00;01;48;17
Aaron
And you're like, chat windows, do you refer to it as a slave bot or do you, treat it a little bit more respectfully there?
00;01;48;22 - 00;01;52;12
Chris
No, I refer to it with expletives.
00;01;52;14 - 00;01;53;13
Pri
Kill the Chris.
00;01;53;20 - 00;02;02;11
Aaron
What do you call your. You're I, I don't, personify my my agents. I don't give them names yet, but I do try to pump them up.
00;02;02;14 - 00;02;11;23
Pri
I'd be curious if you could ask it to name itself, but I agree, I don't really have a name for it. I'm just like, hey, what's up? Like, I don't even say, hey, what's up? I'm like, do this thing like I don't.
00;02;12;00 - 00;02;21;27
Aaron
Yeah. There's no, no, there's no one up with your bot. With your bot spray. No, I warm up sometimes. There. Do you, do you have a name for your bot?
00;02;22;00 - 00;02;27;11
Derek
I don't have a name for him. But, you know, it's interesting though. Like, did you guys see the sandbar product this week?
00;02;27;13 - 00;02;28;26
Aaron
Yeah, that's a cool product.
00;02;29;02 - 00;02;56;16
Derek
It's a cool product. It's like a ring and a companion app and basically allows you to kind of like talking to a stream of consciousness and, you know, it's it records kind of your ideas in real time and honestly uses AI to interact with your your thoughts in real time. I think the interesting piece of this, from what I've heard, is that, and part of why I'm bringing it up in this conversation is that the way it responds back to you in natural language, voice is actually in your voice.
00;02;56;18 - 00;03;01;19
Derek
And so there is something about like this idea of, you know, your these AI systems becoming.
00;03;01;19 - 00;03;02;20
Aaron
More.
00;03;02;23 - 00;03;25;02
Derek
I don't know what the right word is, but like synchronicity, you are exactly your brain in your brain inner monologue where like that division that we're describing here between you and your agent. I think sandbar is taking the point of view that, like, these things should actually be combined and like the optimal product UX is not to see it as a different thing, but as an extension of who you are, which there is a direction there that I actually kind of agree with.
00;03;25;02 - 00;03;32;17
Aaron
So I think that's interesting. But don't you think that's going to lead to like AI induced like schizophrenia or something like that? It's possible at scale.
00;03;32;18 - 00;03;46;28
Derek
Yeah. I mean like the reality is, is like all of this where we're teetering at the edge here with, with a lot of the stack and a lot of this stuff has the potential to do that. It could be that, like the combination of identity between you and your agent is the thing that does it for some people.
00;03;46;28 - 00;03;59;06
Derek
But yeah, I mean, I'm just assuming we all know and recognize that, like, all this stuff feels like it's we're on the precipice of, yeah, some, some real mental, you know, issues like.
00;03;59;09 - 00;04;04;09
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's happened a couple times, wasn't there, like some venture capitalists that like,
00;04;04;11 - 00;04;08;09
Pri
That I says, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have something.
00;04;08;11 - 00;04;30;07
Aaron
I don't remember his name, but I remember the story. It was roughly like he was spending so much time going down some rabbit hole with, some question that, people thought that it kind of led to a mental health issue with him, which which is unfortunate. Either latter exacerbated. I'm not going to claim to know the process of how that happens, but I thought that that is interesting.
00;04;30;07 - 00;04;42;05
Aaron
Yeah, I did think about that with, sandbar. I mean, it's a cool product I like. I like the idea of what they're pointing towards. I don't know if I'd want my voice to be, like, played back to me. Yeah. Let's find my voice when I hear it, like, I don't know if you guys feel this way.
00;04;42;05 - 00;04;43;21
Aaron
Just like a little jarring.
00;04;43;24 - 00;04;45;07
Derek
I love your voice.
00;04;45;10 - 00;04;49;15
Aaron
Thanks to this, there's endorsements.
00;04;49;17 - 00;04;52;02
Chris
Derek. Top five voices. Does Aaron cracking.
00;04;52;05 - 00;04;53;01
Derek
Aaron's top three.
00;04;53;01 - 00;04;55;06
Chris
Did it read? Right up there was.
00;04;55;06 - 00;04;56;15
Derek
Chris Safran pre.
00;04;56;18 - 00;04;58;17
Aaron
Yeah there you guys are one and two.
00;04;58;19 - 00;05;15;14
Derek
You guys rocked me to sleep every night. No the cool thing the cool thing about Sam. But I was like I don't think we know the right form factor yet. I think everyone's kind of taking a different stab at it. Like, we've seen rings, we've seen pendants, we've seen handheld devices. I know, I was doing a little digging on like the Johnny I have.
00;05;15;14 - 00;05;39;14
Derek
Sam Altman combo hardware product that they've been working on and like the latest rumors, like, this thing doesn't have a screen that fits in your hand and it's a little computer that's, you know, audio, that that's basically like audio only and sits on your desk potentially. And, you know, I've seen I obviously have been a, user of the eye meta glasses for, a while.
00;05;39;14 - 00;05;56;25
Derek
And that product is evolving in a very specific direction. And then don't even get me started on we have VR and I incorporate, but I think the the larger point I'm making is like, all we're seeing right now are like people taking stabs in the dark on like what the optimal form factor is for stuff in. Yeah, I'm, I like, I like it.
00;05;56;25 - 00;05;59;03
Derek
I like seeing where people are going with this stuff. It's been pretty fun.
00;05;59;03 - 00;06;18;27
Aaron
I, I do feel like this combo of, like, hardware plus like, like, software, SAS type model, does feel like there could be something around that, right? Because there's lock in effect with the, the hardware and that's and there is like a lot of enrichment that you can kind of provide with that. So it's kind of like, yeah, got hardware.
00;06;18;28 - 00;06;35;13
Aaron
I was just going to say like, I think because hardware by itself, it's hard to build like a moat around. Right? Because people can copy or reverse engineer what you built. And the same thing's kind of happening with software now too, right? Or it's easier and easier to create software using, AI to generate the code base, etc..
00;06;35;13 - 00;06;41;26
Aaron
But maybe it's the combination of the two that actually does create like a little bit of a moat. It feels like some some folks are pointing in that direction.
00;06;42;02 - 00;07;02;15
Derek
I think that's right. Or I think that is one way that, that this thing could unfold. And like the stuff that comes up for me is, I think probably everyone, on this pod was playing around with, like, you know, pirating music or, like, pirating media and like the late 90s and early 2000. You know, I remember I.
00;07;02;15 - 00;07;04;02
Aaron
Plead the fifth that Derek says.
00;07;04;09 - 00;07;25;08
Derek
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. But but like, it wasn't until the, the, the first iPod, like that first generation one where like people were that behavior shift became so real and like the device actually spurred on this concept of like digital music and people wanting to play digital music and people buying digital music for $0.99 and people sharing digital music.
00;07;25;08 - 00;07;55;02
Derek
And and I think it took like this very clever, minimalist, pure hardware product that was designed just for music streaming or just for, I should say, like digital music listening that like put the whole industry on notice and like, set everything on fire. And, and I think the there is an argument to be made that like we're one hardware product breakout away from I kind of like or I should say like AI terminal use cases becoming like very obvious and very big and very huge.
00;07;55;04 - 00;08;11;29
Derek
And I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where that ends up falling. But like there is I think this is why I like these experiments so much. It's like everyone has a different perspective on a what those big breakout use cases are for people using AI day to day, be they're taking a different opinion and the type of hardware they're building.
00;08;12;02 - 00;08;25;25
Derek
And the, you know, points of intersection with, with, with synthetic intelligence in their stack. And so, yeah, I think, if nothing else, these are all like great examples to kind of follow along with and see what, what sticks out and what breaks out and what people like or don't like.
00;08;25;29 - 00;09;07;03
Chris
Everyone has a different perspective on this. And I think what I'm hearing from you to me is a different, temporal perspective than where my head is at right now, where I think you're looking for what's right around the corner and like, some, sort of flywheel kickstarting via consumer products. And I'm assuming that's a foregone conclusion, and I'm kind of agnostic about what actually wins and where my head is at is around, spatial intelligence, like, I, I think that is going to be the real design.
00;09;07;03 - 00;09;44;00
Chris
Unlock that once we can achieve like ubiquitous, near real time spatial intelligence in a generalized fashion that this is when this thing really, really takes off. It's not to say like, we're going to see tons of stuff come prior to that. But like, to me, that's that's something where like, I'm kind of very focused on right now. Like once these systems can see and sense and detect things and integrate that into, you know, like intelligent actions based on retrieved memory, then you kind of have the total package.
00;09;44;02 - 00;10;04;06
Aaron
Yeah. And I think that that's what's missing, right? It doesn't act unless it's prompted at this point. Right. I think that's what prompt is actually a pretty good way to describe it. It's like when these systems don't need to be prompted as much. And I guess with some of the more authentic workflows and stuff like cursor, it's a little less prompt specific, like it has more room to run.
00;10;04;06 - 00;10;20;09
Aaron
But I do think you're right. And I think the the net result is, is what one is. We get a new class of products like what you're describing, Derek, which I think people enjoy and hopefully make their lives better and that makes them crazy to I think you're going to then get finally like the new operating system, right?
00;10;20;09 - 00;10;35;14
Aaron
Because I think that the new operating system will probably have those characteristics as part of it, too. I mean, if you kind of view your computer as like or a desktop computer as like a core device and people's lives, I do think the software running on it needs an upgrade and probably will have elements of what you're describing there.
00;10;35;14 - 00;10;40;14
Pri
Chris, what happens when this is all achieved? Are we going to have everyone's going to have an AI companion.
00;10;40;16 - 00;10;42;07
Aaron
That's what you've always been focused on.
00;10;42;09 - 00;10;44;18
Pri
Why do I think it's going to be huge?
00;10;44;20 - 00;10;47;03
Aaron
But I don't want an AI companion.
00;10;47;06 - 00;10;48;22
Pri
You probably already do have some.
00;10;48;22 - 00;10;49;08
Chris
No.
00;10;49;10 - 00;10;54;23
Derek
What what what is like what do you mean by AI companion? Like in what sense of the word companion?
00;10;54;27 - 00;11;17;23
Pri
Yeah, I guess I guess, like, you know, you can have almost like a coworker copilot. Like, I guess that's that's a definition of a type of companion, I guess. Companion. Also, I guess, when I think companion, I think of like a, like a some sort of more romantic, deeper friendship, maybe not even romantic, just a deeper friendship, a deeper connection with each other.
00;11;17;24 - 00;11;36;24
Pri
But. And I feel like that's pretty common, actually. Like the I said this to you guys, but like the Times Magazine ran a story literally like two days ago about like, I think they profiled like three married people and how they're getting a lot of like, support and they're like in their 40s and 50s and they've like, have pictures of themselves with that.
00;11;36;25 - 00;11;51;02
Pri
They like prompt with their AI and yeah, they like talk to them all the time. They like, talk to them on their drive to work and like before bed. And it's it's like becoming deeper for these people. It's very like like a movie.
00;11;51;02 - 00;12;14;25
Derek
Her basically I'll put on my like venture capital hat here for a second. And like, you know, the way I think about this question is like jobs to be done and for a long time, like jobs to be done, whether that's been hardware jobs in a software job. So we don't have been in ways kind of like to increase productivity or make the jobs of of humans easier or unlock new kind of territory and service area.
00;12;14;28 - 00;12;33;13
Derek
I think the there are a new crop of jobs to be done that are happening around companions, as you call it, and it and it can be things like, you know, romantic jobs, food on our friendship, job, student, or getting advice or getting guidance or fixing loneliness or, you know, they're all like these core needs for humans that for a long time technology hasn't really been able to penetrate.
00;12;33;15 - 00;12;40;13
Derek
But I think does get unlocked with some of the companion stuff. And so it wouldn't shock me to see these verticals become massively valuable.
00;12;40;16 - 00;12;56;03
Pri
I agree, I completely agree. I can't tell if that's long term, healthy or not. Like I haven't quite made up my mind yet. Like, is this actually net positive for people or is it going to depend on the person, depend on the type of relationship? Because I think it's a huge.
00;12;56;09 - 00;12;58;00
Aaron
It could be generational too.
00;12;58;02 - 00;13;17;21
Pri
Yeah, I think it's a huge and I think there could be could be great. Like if you're older and you're, you know, lonely and I think you have something to bounce ideas or if you, you know, or whatever you can have like a deep relationship with the machine, just like you have a robot. I actually don't judge that, but I just wonder if that's actually a positive thing or not, because I've.
00;13;17;23 - 00;13;39;13
Pri
It's funny, this article, I think on one of the old post pads we went to, just Chris and I, we talked about because our deep dive on this Reddit thread, like my boyfriend is AI and actually that's quoted in this times article and it's kind of it's like jarring, like it's like very it's like other humans recommending on like how to best optimize their AI companion.
00;13;39;15 - 00;13;46;14
Pri
Yeah. I don't really know what else to say to that except for a I can't tell if that's actually a good or bad thing yet, but maybe it's kind of like that.
00;13;46;16 - 00;14;10;16
Chris
I'll give you a positive spin on this pre. If you frame it from the point of view that everyone needs a sidekick, and that sidekick may serve many different functions, but that what is not healthy right now is the complexity of the world that we're living in, and our ability to, manage and interact with the demand systems are placing on us.
00;14;10;16 - 00;14;45;00
Chris
Right. Is is starting to like, strip out our ability to enjoy life and do other things, right? Like, I know so many people in my world right now who are over programed and some of that is their own doing, but most of it is actually just meeting the demands of the modern world. And so that if you frame there's this entire suite of things as like you have a sidekick to help you handle all of that, then I would say that, like there's an imbalance and there is a positive role to fill right now.
00;14;45;03 - 00;14;52;09
Chris
The challenge, of course, is like what happens when you use it for purposes other than that? And you know, that's a big TBD.
00;14;52;11 - 00;15;09;24
Pri
Yeah, yeah, I think that I guess the market and the venture capital has had on I think the market for this is huge. So you're going to see varying degrees of like positive and negative outcome probably. It's like not a right. There's no like right answer. But dude it's definitely getting bigger and getting profiled more. And I would recommend going to the subreddit.
00;15;09;24 - 00;15;10;27
Pri
It's like fascinating.
00;15;10;27 - 00;15;11;28
Chris
I still in this day and.
00;15;11;28 - 00;15;13;00
Aaron
Age, I don't know if I to do.
00;15;13;00 - 00;15;14;18
Chris
That Reddit.
00;15;14;20 - 00;15;15;23
Aaron
I have to leave that to you.
00;15;16;01 - 00;15;20;18
Chris
All right. The Gen Xers immediately speak up and say no, no to Reddit.
00;15;20;25 - 00;15;21;08
Pri
All right?
00;15;21;13 - 00;15;40;19
Aaron
I like I like Reddit, but I don't know if I'm going to spend time on the yeah, I companion, I don't know, I feel like I'm sure for some people like the sidekick stuff is is great, but I guess I'm a little bit more focused on, you know, the, the fringes, which will which will probably, you know, take this to not a healthy endpoint.
00;15;40;21 - 00;16;03;15
Aaron
I also feel like I spent a lot of time just talking and interacting with these AI systems. And I've been thinking about this recently. I don't know if I personally think it's like that. Great. I feel like it makes you much more inward. And I don't know if that's always, like, healthy and productive. Maybe the theme is that all this stuff is going to make us, like, a little bit more schizo, which is unfortunate.
00;16;03;15 - 00;16;10;16
Aaron
I feel like everything's schizo, whether it's politics, whether it's AI, whether it's crypto, there's like just like extreme on both ends.
00;16;10;18 - 00;16;12;00
Pri
The terminally online.
00;16;12;08 - 00;16;22;02
Chris
I don't feel like any of those topics are currently schizo. Well, what world are you living in? Politics. The markets just like crypto. All of that's totally normal right now.
00;16;22;04 - 00;16;24;13
Aaron
It's business as usual across business as usual.
00;16;24;19 - 00;16;46;00
Pri
I don't know if you found this interesting. There's not a whole lot to talk about here, but I just think it's interesting to see A16z obviously a mega venture fund moving into media so heavily like they did the Eric Thornburg Whatever podcast world acquisition they're hiring a ton. They're basically doing like they're doing what's called like new media.
00;16;46;00 - 00;17;08;28
Pri
And then they're kind of trying to now just pick up all these Substack writers. They're also doing this new media fellowship, which essentially is like copying the Teal Fellowship, but they're trying to find people who are terminally online and like, love online content. And so they're like fully building out the team with the fellowship, almost like an incubator.
00;17;09;04 - 00;17;34;21
Pri
And it's kind of interesting to see the amount of resources, effort, energy that they're putting into new, like just media in general. It feels almost at first I was like, okay, you know, their their media angle is to like show their portfolio companies. But now it feels bigger. It feels like they want political influence more. Maybe that's like the most obvious sentence of the century, but like it definitely feels like they're leaning extremely heavy here.
00;17;34;24 - 00;17;41;00
Pri
I don't know if you guys find that interesting, but like, they want to be like 24, but tech media feels like.
00;17;41;04 - 00;18;12;02
Chris
So if you're, a writer and you've been working for the last 20 years, your, your arc has basically been, let's say you didn't get a status job at like, trad media. Let's just say you started online, you started doing BuzzFeed listicles, then you graduated to some form of like, taste making, review, write a food travel mommy. Blogging is some form of taste making.
00;18;12;04 - 00;18;34;04
Chris
Then what? You were forced into politics and then you ended up out in this like, disassociated, post-modern dark forest scene. And now you're saying, like a16z. Like you got to, like, go serve a16z like, is that the arc of someone trying to make it as a wordsmith in that networked age?
00;18;34;06 - 00;18;51;12
Pri
Possibly, yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. But I'm also just trying to understand what's their end game with this. Like, I mean, I think they want to go public, right? But like, why why are they leaning so heavy into this? Like, this just has to be like just the technocratic elite, like trying to extend influence their media.
00;18;51;15 - 00;18;57;15
Pri
But instead of, like, doing the Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison approach, they're trying to build it from the ground up.
00;18;57;17 - 00;19;36;08
Chris
Yeah, it's a good question because there has been very much like, tech focus into like media extension. And it's taken many different forms. It's obviously all about influence in one way or the other. Otherwise why wouldn't you, you know, why would you be doing it? It certainly doesn't feel like a credo from a financial perspective. Right. And so is it, you know, diminishing returns, things where like, you've kind of checked as many boxes as you can, often your core thing, you're starting to, you know, branch out because there's simply nothing else to do.
00;19;36;10 - 00;20;05;00
Chris
Is it a function of, you know, media? Is it the persistent importance and the fact that, like, culture has basically been locked for, you know, 20 to 40 years, depending on, you know, your view of like ontology and postmodernism and all of that. And so you're kind of stuck there. Is it? You made banks in the mobile era via IPO's and mobile app development that's dried up.
00;20;05;00 - 00;20;21;03
Chris
And we're now entering into this world of hyper scaling in which, you know, there's bigger commitments, less opportunities. And so once you place these huge bet, you simply have time on your hands, like, what's going on here?
00;20;21;05 - 00;20;39;03
Pri
Yeah, I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm like, what's the angle here? But I mean, all of this stuff that you just suggested, you know, all makes sense. And for them, I think fundamentally they want their portfolio companies to do well. So I feel like they see this almost as like, they had something like that was like a network capital graph.
00;20;39;03 - 00;21;18;04
Pri
It kind of resembled like the funding graph between like Nvidia and Oracle and not like that popular graph that got passed along on Twitter. But I basically think they just want to turn their portfolio companies and just stories. And I think they realized that storytelling now is so important and a lot of tech struggles with that. So maybe this is just an end goal to try to to do that, like the launch videos and, you know, the impact of TikTok, even in politics, you just see the impact of like storytelling through TikToks and like these moments where, you know, people are sharing like clip moments, either from like they'll be clip moments from debates.
00;21;18;04 - 00;21;38;07
Pri
But one could argue, like the clip moments from just like having, you know, mom at a club on Halloween probably went more viral, if not a more viral than any debate clip would. So maybe it's just like extending the footprint and you just kind of have to be everywhere and multi-channel. And so they're just like tripling down. But anyways, we don't need to talk about it if it's boring.
00;21;38;07 - 00;21;40;29
Pri
But I just think it's kind of like an interesting angle for them.
00;21;41;02 - 00;21;58;20
Aaron
I think they're just doubling down on what's work for them. Right? I think, yeah, they've always been marketing first and I think it's worked. I think they put themselves in national conversations or been able to shape it. And you agree with that or not? I think they're just doubling down on what what has worked. And the landscape is just more fractured than ever.
00;21;58;22 - 00;22;17;15
Aaron
Right. Yeah. But if you can get distribution, it's more powerful than ever at the same time. So I bet that that's some of the calculus along with the, the points that you raised, which I thought were great. You know, I do think the storytelling aspects are difficult, and there's some people that know that. And, you know, culture, for better or worse, really is forming online.
00;22;17;18 - 00;22;21;05
Aaron
I mean, just look at our, our recent, elections in New York.
00;22;21;07 - 00;22;21;24
Pri
I know that.
00;22;21;24 - 00;22;23;05
Aaron
Was completely like.
00;22;23;08 - 00;22;57;26
Chris
Wait, before we start online, before we go there, I want to close this one out. Here's a thought around this pre. Maybe it's simply that we're in a period in which like other than a few obvious bets, nothing else is clear. And when nothing else is clear, you can't stand idle. You have to continue to act. And therefore the only thing they feel they can do is gain control of the strongest signals they see and all the noise, and write the signals clearly.
00;22;57;26 - 00;23;22;20
Chris
Our attention, you know, like get a cluley, I guess. Did some, TechCrunch thing the other day. I didn't pay any attention other than to see TechCrunch also ran a hit piece on them as they were presenting at their own at a TechCrunch thing. And, you know, like the founders of 2025 are just like, clearly. And what's the friend dependent one?
00;23;22;20 - 00;23;24;10
Chris
Is it friendly or little friend?
00;23;24;12 - 00;23;27;05
Pri
Your friend? Yeah. Obvi.
00;23;27;07 - 00;23;56;25
Chris
Yeah. And so, I mean, it's funny because a in some respects there are some of the few breakout founders of the year, but they're also failing spectacularly in their breakout. And I think maybe that's a little emblematic of the contradiction where you're faced with, like, you have to have you have to gain attention. That much is known in this table stakes, but no one actually then understands how to translate that into product success.
00;23;57;02 - 00;24;25;00
Chris
And so it becomes a circular trap in which to play the game. You simply like to tread water. You must have attention even if like, it doesn't get you anywhere. And we're seeing that in crypto lately as well, with a lot of like I'm seeing advice on the timeline right now telling people to build for markets, which like as a product guy, it just is so triggering to me because I think it's the dead is wrong.
00;24;25;02 - 00;24;52;21
Chris
Most built to fail set of advice you can give someone, but if you're on the inside, you're an operator. You have commitments. You have goals like you're in motion, right? Like you have to stay at the table because if you don't sit here at the table, you're dumb. And so from a survival standpoint, I bet the the messaging of build for markets is actually appealing to you because you're a little further down, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
00;24;52;21 - 00;24;57;20
Chris
At the moment, you're not thinking about success. You're simply thinking about staying in the game.
00;24;57;21 - 00;25;16;07
Aaron
Yeah, completely. And, you know, I thought, I mean, I think there's that, you know, one bit of advice, I guess, that that some people are pushing to build for markets. I think at the other time at the at the same time, you're seeing, you know, folks like one confirmation, which, you know, do a great job just spotting great projects in the crypto digital asset space.
00;25;16;10 - 00;25;47;04
Aaron
Just saying, you know, kind of close your ears to that. Just continue to keep your eyes open and just keep on building. But don't just build with your heads completely down, you know, build with some awareness around you, which I thought was a good point to. So, you know, I think I think, Chris, there's a lot of projects, especially projects that raise and, you know, the last cycle that are either burnt out, they're tired, you know, they're building reasonably good things that would have gotten a lot more attention a couple, you know, quarters years ago and are just pushing their way through.
00;25;47;06 - 00;25;56;07
Aaron
And it's a slog. You know, they're they're chewing chewing glass right now a bit. So I don't blame people for at least trying to be somewhat supportive there. But I definitely hear your points.
00;25;56;09 - 00;26;14;00
Chris
Yeah. I mean, if only we had someone on this very podcast who straddles, like who sits right in the sweet spot between, like an a16z and he does build for markets, crypto skills, US ism, who actually does have to speak to founders and gives them advice.
00;26;14;00 - 00;26;29;10
Derek
Derek go ahead. Perri. No, I'm just I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to I'm happy to give my take here. Like what I have. I have a lot of thoughts on this, I guess. What would be the most interesting direction for me to take it?
00;26;29;12 - 00;26;33;03
Pri
What are you telling founders right now who are trying to build in this space?
00;26;33;11 - 00;26;34;11
Derek
Yeah, I mean, like this.
00;26;34;11 - 00;26;35;15
Chris
For better or for worse.
00;26;35;16 - 00;27;02;11
Derek
Like. And I think you guys know, it's just about as well as anyone. You guys have been here forever. But like the things that get attention on crypto Twitter are, are things that have some sort of like core speculation game or some speculation loop that's like very obvious and reflexive. And when you're dealing with assets that are mark to market and, you know, people are constantly looking to social products to kind of like find a symmetry between a narrative and a fundamental price.
00;27;02;14 - 00;27;35;12
Derek
The things that end up getting it's just like positively selected for like people speculating and talking about speculation and for a lot of founders who are, who maybe aren't building as closely to those speculative loops, it can be really discouraging to like to look at these other value props of crypto, which is like infinite divisibility of, payment transfer or blockchains as a 24 over seven database or, you know, the the ability to kind of compose with, you know, protocols that, you know, without, you know, without permission, totally permissionless.
00;27;35;12 - 00;28;00;15
Derek
They that don't have like the same maybe drivers to get people speculating or talking about the thing. And so, you know, this is something that like I think founders have been dealing with since like the very beginning. Now I have a view that like, you know, over, over time, like the the scales of justice are like, are more of a, I'm losing the analogy here.
00;28;00;15 - 00;28;35;07
Derek
Like there are weighing machine and, and these things net out as time goes on and really valuable products are able to service because they catch fire or people get them. And, and then, you know, these injustices around narratives are kind of like righted as time goes on. And so, you know, a lot of, well, the first thing I'll say is, like a lot of how I think about stuff is, as an early stage, investors making sure I'm finding founders who understand that, like the journey of what they're building is the feedback loops may not be as tight, and it's going to take years and maybe consecutive rounds of fundraising to kind of like build
00;28;35;07 - 00;29;05;04
Derek
within the market that they've set out to build. I think crypto AI is a really great example of that. It's like, you know, a lot of these projects have such massive aspirations, but, you know, the tech needs to shake out a very specific way. The user class that they're building for it doesn't quite isn't quite here yet. You know, the data or the models that they're able to get are not quite right, to kind of like, you know, build a steady state product that can compete at the margins of of more centralized groups who are far more capitalized.
00;29;05;07 - 00;29;23;09
Derek
It's not just crypto and AI. It's like there's all sorts of categories that use this stuff that the burn is just like it's longer. And so I first I want to find founders who get that, like it's not going to be an easy journey. And but they're committed to the craft and what they build. And I think that's part of like how I think about finding great founders who are working on big problems.
00;29;23;09 - 00;29;46;06
Derek
I think the second is it does get like mentally draining and tough to kind of like not have those feedback loops and to have like a very difficult time trying to fundraise or, you know, see product feedback and, and think that like, you know, it's it's it's, you know, fatal for the company that you're building and a lot of it's just like, you know, coaching them to like, hey, here's what I'm seeing.
00;29;46;09 - 00;30;01;29
Derek
Here are some, like, interesting service areas to kind of like, bridge the gap. In the meantime, here's where I, you know, here's how I would think about product building in the short term versus the medium term. Let's make sure you're well capitalized for the journey ahead given kind of like the interest cycle volatility. Because you know, people love it.
00;30;01;29 - 00;30;23;21
Derek
When bitcoins prices up they come into the space. They want to go out on the risk curve. They want to find new projects and invest when Bitcoin is ranging or you know, it's it's kind of a and a you know it's it's not performing as admirably as a kind of a risk asset. People leave the space. And so that means, you know, projects that are a little bit out further out on the curve are going to get less attention.
00;30;23;21 - 00;30;44;02
Derek
And and so it can be kind of like a lonely place to build. And so it's it's just important to kind of like make sure that folks are still well suited for the journey ahead, still well-capitalized, still preserving capital. And are getting the right feedback and advice and not getting too discouraged. They're there. Yeah. And, you know, I'm just one person on their journey.
00;30;44;02 - 00;31;04;10
Derek
You know, they also have other advisors. And, you know, they have a great employees and staff that can help with with a lot of the stuff and also peers who are building projects that are maybe in a similar situation. But if you just think about the numbers, it's just like, you know, crypto Twitter is talking about one product, you know, a couple products a week that seem to kind of like break through the narrative gap.
00;31;04;10 - 00;31;20;26
Derek
And there's thousands of projects that are building in the space, tens of thousands, over the years. And, yeah, I mean, it's it's not everyone's going to have their limelight right away. And so it's really important to kind of have a longer term vision for how this asset class of ours. But yeah, anyway, hopefully there's something useful in there.
00;31;20;28 - 00;31;39;04
Chris
Yeah. No, there's there's a lot in there. One thing I was thinking about as you were speaking was how hard it has to be for these founders who don't have anything to react to. And that's something like I never experienced, right? Like I was always working in, in feedback loops. And, you know, it was a metaphor in a lot of ways.
00;31;39;04 - 00;32;05;16
Chris
Like I was I was a quarterback facing a rush at all times, having to make snap decisions and not dealing in hypotheticals or not waiting for markets to emerge. And so that has to be harder, both like as, a builder, but also as, a human being for like as brutal as, competitive field that like, I was working in.
00;32;05;16 - 00;32;28;26
Chris
Right. Like it rewarded you for doing right and rewarded you nearly, like, in an instant, instantly. Right. And so you you got to learn your lessons faster. You got to take incremental steps and improvement based on real things. And all of that is lacking in here. It's it's got to be just so, so difficult.
00;32;28;28 - 00;32;49;03
Derek
Yeah. I totally and you kind of have to have this belief that like because those feedback loops are maybe not as tight and like they're, they're further spread apart. It can feel crazy, like you can feel super. I mean, it was it felt really crazy. I think like post FDX like, the social signal of building and crypto I think was man, like all time lows.
00;32;49;05 - 00;33;11;08
Derek
I think you'll take what you can get in terms of feedback. I think amazingly, stuff like Clarity Act or the SEC safe harbor articulation, like the available to crypto from the US, has been a total sea change in how I think founders, they feel so much more comfortable about building and crypto and like they understand like, okay, hey, there's like these value props that you can't reproduce with other technology stacks, right?
00;33;11;08 - 00;33;34;14
Derek
It's like the the stuff I just went through, you know, you can digitally own things in a sovereign setting. You can, you know, have programmatic incentives that allow people to do jobs on the internet. You can send micropayments at any divisibility for fractions of a cent, the composability, the, you know, security models are far more distributed, and which means you can build new types of products like these things can't you can't do this without crypto or blockchains.
00;33;34;16 - 00;33;54;06
Derek
And I think having that veil meant from a legislative and regulatory perspective, and also knowing intimately that, like there's real technology here that just is not possible to do. You cannot do this stuff with anything else that has given a lot of people a lot of mental fortitude that like, okay, this is the right place for me to be building.
00;33;54;12 - 00;34;13;25
Derek
I have an edge because I've thought about how the world evolves in this very specific way. It's not I'm not going to get like the product feedback that I want right now. But I do know that like the inevitability of, you know, for example, payments being sent over blockchains like we were talking about this stuff for a decade and it's now finally being realized in a big way, and it's being rerated in real time.
00;34;13;25 - 00;34;32;04
Derek
And so I think a lot of founders like, okay, you know, that's what's going to happen with crypto art eventually. It's what's going to happen with crypto games, what's going to happen with crypto. And I it's like there are these pockets of categories are so big and so massive that have zero penetration around crypto on blockchains right now, and that is just not going to be true in five years or three years or ten years or whatever the timeline is.
00;34;32;04 - 00;34;52;16
Derek
And so yeah, I say all this because like the the feedback loops look different in Web3 than Web2. It's like you kind of have to be a little crazy. You have to stick it out. You have to have like intense mental fortitude to take wins where you can, because there is an inevitability to this stuff that I think draws a lot of founders into this space, even when it feels like you're kind of pushing the boulder up the hill with no real feedback.
00;34;52;16 - 00;35;10;06
Chris
Well, good luck and God bless to everyone out there building in the space. It's certainly a degree of difficulty that a lot of people haven't had to face in the past. And so, you know, my heart, my empathy goes out to everyone trying trying to make it out there. You're fighting the good fight.
00;35;10;08 - 00;35;11;17
Aaron
Are you saying, like me, Chris?
00;35;11;19 - 00;35;14;25
Chris
You know, like me? Wag me. I'm not saying wag sounds.
00;35;14;25 - 00;35;15;19
Derek
Like that may.
00;35;15;22 - 00;35;16;08
Pri
Sound like.
00;35;16;08 - 00;35;18;18
Aaron
Well, I'm hearing a little wag me.
00;35;18;21 - 00;35;44;20
Chris
Guys. The hard reality of it, right? There's this line, and, Master and commander where he's like, not everyone becomes the man they thought they would be. And it just is this very poignant, scene in the movie. And that's the hard reality of the space. And so I, you know, having nearly died a thousand times on my own journey, you got to be very measured.
00;35;44;22 - 00;36;09;21
Chris
Because it does take a huge toll on you. And so I never want to blindly tell someone to go, you know, go go out into a dark forest. Because I do want them to return. Ideally, you want everyone to come back a winner. You know, but the simple math doesn't work out that way. And the the more important thing is you have a whole life ahead of you.
00;36;09;21 - 00;36;17;07
Chris
And, you know, this is just one, one part of that journey. So I wish everyone well, I, I can't do it again, you know, I'm sorry.
00;36;17;10 - 00;36;38;12
Pri
I also hope it gets easier. I feel like it's like it's been just a slow grind. In crypto, I kind of am hoping some of these like regulatory, you know, tailwinds and stuff kind of make, make it a little bit easier to get that feedback loop. To have more users and have more growth there so that people, it's just easier to build around.
00;36;38;14 - 00;36;55;01
Chris
And speaking of, the regulatory environment and legislative action, I was down in DC. I was just having some meetings, putting out some feelers to seeing if there's support for, like, a facility, a federal backstop in case the CapEx costs.
00;36;55;03 - 00;36;56;19
Aaron
For OpenAI.
00;36;56;22 - 00;36;58;18
Chris
No, no, for net society.
00;36;58;20 - 00;37;00;06
Aaron
So we need one.
00;37;00;08 - 00;37;01;14
Derek
We definitely need one.
00;37;01;16 - 00;37;03;15
Chris
Yeah. I mean, this is this is a public good.
00;37;03;15 - 00;37;05;10
Derek
Now, Aaron. This is a public good.
00;37;05;13 - 00;37;11;12
Aaron
The people I mean, completely they do. Yeah. Well, except of federal insurance on this.
00;37;11;14 - 00;37;32;12
Chris
Trillions of dollars to keep the show running. Right. And, and lenders, I mean, they're, they are a little nervous about, like, issuing bonds and all of that just to keep us yapping. So I, I was just laying the groundwork so far. I've been told that if we took that to the fed and asked for a facility, they tell us to go fuck ourselves.
00;37;32;15 - 00;37;36;15
Chris
But like it seemed, it seemed positive, like there's a chance.
00;37;36;17 - 00;37;55;12
Aaron
That was wild. And that was a wild story. Chris. And for those that don't know what Chris is getting at OpenAI, I claim that they needed like a federal backstop in order to continue to, you know, build and scale, which I which is a weird twist in their growth and story. Sorry, Derek. I mean, to interrupt, you.
00;37;55;13 - 00;38;18;00
Derek
Know, do you you just said what I was going to say, which is just like, I think the, the for for those of us are I mean, I think everyone was alive, but like in the thing that to avoid is like this failure contagion that happened in 2008 and, you know, like people are starting to see, you know, just like pattern matching to kind of like some of those behaviors.
00;38;18;00 - 00;38;36;25
Derek
And, and I think I saw David Sax like, shut that shit down. Like, I think within like 24 hours, I think I retweeted up and he was like, there will be no federal bailout. Bailout for AI. The US has at least five major frontier model companies. If one fails, others will take its place, which is a very free markets thing to tweet.
00;38;36;27 - 00;39;18;16
Derek
And which is like, you know, antithetical to some of the spiritual comments that I think, Sam and his team were trying to kind of, illuminate around federal izing some of the work that they're doing. I think there's also an argument to be made that we're headed in that direction regardless. But I don't but I but I, you know, I would say that philosophically take David's approach, which is just like, you know, this, I like the the assumptions we're making around reaching AGI, being squarely within OpenAI AI's investment lens is a very strong opinion that you probably don't want to take in anyone of how this all shakes out, and you
00;39;18;16 - 00;39;46;16
Derek
do need to let the markets kind of like, reorient and re categorize themselves to this novel technology, which we not even quite sure exactly how we get, proposed again instead of backstopping kind of decision making at the corporate level this early on in the game. Not to mention. Yeah, not to mention just like that, generally speaking, what that would mean if, if we tied ourselves to kind of like this, this corporate carriage, and it ended up not working.
00;39;46;19 - 00;39;49;10
Derek
So it sounds like kind of a kind of. Well, we it.
00;39;49;12 - 00;40;15;06
Aaron
It's always interesting how these, like, large models want to, like, lock in you know, some sort of regulatory moat. So I think, I think, you know, as we're kind of sifting through the entrails of the last administration, purportedly, there was a lot of push from anthropic also, to try to get some of the Biden administration's, proposals passed, which would just basically lock them in.
00;40;15;06 - 00;40;26;04
Aaron
It's like a leader. It's just interesting that the the policy teams at these organizations are kind of pushing in that direction instead of just competing on their merits. I wonder why that's the case.
00;40;26;06 - 00;40;58;02
Chris
There's so much going on here, and there's so many conspiratorial threads and, like, data points to pull on, right. One thing you have to remember, and you mentioned FDX a little earlier, is how deep effective altruists embedded themselves within, like the political thought leadership, of DC and that, the effective altruists, especially around AI safety were reviewing that.
00;40;58;02 - 00;41;25;04
Chris
I think it I don't fully understand because I, I try to stay away from, effective altruism and utilitarianism. I think it's a poisonous form of philosophy that, people without a soul and, you know, can only think in spreadsheets, choose to engage with, you know, like half I would just take the assumption that half of, like, effective altruists are Machiavellian and are viewing this is the fastest form or regulatory capture.
00;41;25;06 - 00;42;03;29
Chris
And then half of them, you know, are genuine and worried about this. Right? But that's one side of this. And I suspect, like anthropic is living in that domain, of thought leadership, open AI. I feel like more and more I see parallels between Robert Moses and Sam Altman, where he wants to be so deeply embedded in financial commitments and, contractual bonds and like, these sort of, like, too big to fail type, selection pressures that he gains the upper hand.
00;42;04;01 - 00;42;31;04
Chris
Like, I, I really do feel that like Sam a red the power broker. You know what Robert Moses was able to do with, like, federal highway money and is thinking that gigawatt hyperscaler like data centers and like, this web of long term commitments upon which his product suite is the primary user, is a way to ensure, like the continuing dominance in pole position of, okay.
00;42;31;04 - 00;42;53;06
Aaron
I, I don't know if we're living in the era of, Robert Moses. For Chris, it feels like we're living in a separate era, but well taken. Yeah. I mean, I think the points are kind of well taken. There's a lot going on. I don't know if it's like even that conspiratorial. I think it's just, you know, people advocating super hard and kind of pressing on those levers of power or pressure points in, in different ways, in.
00;42;53;06 - 00;42;54;18
Pri
A way, it with maybe.
00;42;54;21 - 00;43;21;21
Aaron
Yeah, it feels like more a little bit like that, you know, like, can they create a story or promote like, like a perspective that kind of gets them to where they, where they want? I mean, I think purportedly and I don't know if this is true or not, but folks were saying that a lot of the like I do terrorism was being pushed by folks in and around anthropic, in part because they they'd help, you know, help them, in some of these policy discussions, at least that's what some people are alleging.
00;43;21;24 - 00;43;22;15
Aaron
Okay, so.
00;43;22;17 - 00;43;24;19
Chris
That's the altruist playbook.
00;43;24;21 - 00;43;25;06
Pri
Yeah.
00;43;25;10 - 00;43;28;05
Aaron
I don't even know if they are that right or not. I have no clue.
00;43;28;05 - 00;43;51;16
Chris
I just I don't know I just know that's where that strain of thought came from. And then there's another strain of thought, which is that if you can make AI and scaling equivalent to infrastructure and national security, that that's another path to, I don't know, establishing yourself within the center of power.
00;43;51;18 - 00;44;11;26
Aaron
Yeah. But I mean, when do you think just the merits of what they're building is just going to do that naturally anyway? I feel like that's always happens with, all important tech companies. Right? Like they just they're building stuff that's so useful that they become locus of power just on their own. Right? Yeah. It feels like. It feels like that was the, I guess, historical approach to it.
00;44;11;27 - 00;44;13;10
Aaron
I guess that's changed.
00;44;13;12 - 00;44;32;06
Chris
Well, I think that gets to Derek's point about David Sacks, where he says, okay, you can say one thing, but ultimately when we're facing a crisis and the gun is to your head, is it, you know, like we bailed out Detroit, we bailed out the banks. Right? Like you may not want to, but you have to.
00;44;32;09 - 00;44;36;26
Aaron
Yeah. Just these moral hazard problems that we created. Yeah, I guess.
00;44;36;28 - 00;44;40;01
Pri
The government is a backstop for things like, you know.
00;44;40;03 - 00;44;57;17
Aaron
Well, I think he knows that. But maybe that's the natural reaction of folks when they've seen, you know, the government service that backs up like your note and Chris, which is just like a huge moral hazard problem. And that's what makes those decisions so tricky. Right? So I mean, they're just kind of playing into existing realities.
00;44;57;19 - 00;45;24;19
Chris
At the same time, I don't feel like we've referred like Satya and Microsoft or Zuck and Facebook have any sort of comments around this stuff. And so they seem to be right. Like if you if you view it from how big as the aircraft carrier you're currently developing AI on. Right. And if your aircraft carrier is Microsoft and Facebook, you don't say a damn thing about this ship because you can take care of yourself right?
00;45;24;21 - 00;45;37;26
Aaron
Yeah. And they are they are the aircraft right now, the tech aircrafts. So it's interesting, but it does feel like your point on like E and just, utilitarianism, that's a pervasive theme everywhere, including in our fair city.
00;45;37;28 - 00;45;48;08
Pri
I was actually wondering as you were talking, Max, I have a thought about effective altruism. You think they still have, like, a pretty strong hold across AI safety? NDC today feels like that's like.
00;45;48;11 - 00;46;17;24
Aaron
I think they've been a little discredited because some of the, you know, more extreme wings of of the AI safety folks just hasn't come to fruition. You know, they were predicting like a lot of horrible things already. So I think they're a little bit discredited. I also just think, you know, people realize and I think the conversation has been reframed towards like a space race type scenario where people are willing to take on a bit more risk, even if it it's there and I'm sure it is there.
00;46;17;27 - 00;46;34;06
Aaron
So I feel like the that one two combination maybe is lost a bit of their luster. And then third, I just think, you know, to make those arguments successfully, you have to have a receptive party on the other side. Yes. And like Derek was noting, I don't think that this administration is particularly receptive to that.
00;46;34;08 - 00;46;52;05
Aaron
You know, they're they want to put their foot on the gas when it comes to, you know, tech development and deployment. And we'll see if they're right about that. I, I lean a little bit more in that direction, but, I don't know if I'd go to all the way with, the current administration and all those positions.
00;46;52;11 - 00;46;53;05
Pri
Yeah.
00;46;53;08 - 00;47;03;05
Chris
Well, with Derek off the show and us in our, our closing chapters here, we can turn to the third rail and talk about what's going on in New York and,
00;47;03;07 - 00;47;04;17
Aaron
Oh, man, do we have to do that?
00;47;04;24 - 00;47;06;01
Pri
We're going to close out on that.
00;47;06;05 - 00;47;45;26
Chris
I'm just going to say the bridge between these two things, from the first, from my read, is that, a lot of the vociferous out of city reaction to Mamdani was predicated on the idea that socialism has been actually an elite activity masquerading as too big to fail capitalism, and that the democratization of socialism scares the shit out of a lot of people in the, the VC finance, right, that this was their playground, being able to ask and get things from the government.
00;47;45;28 - 00;47;49;03
Chris
And now you've got some guy out there trying to give it to everyone.
00;47;49;06 - 00;48;05;12
Aaron
Now, that feels optimistic to me, Chris, I don't know. I just I think it's it's fine to kind of want to, make things more equal. I just think that a lot of the policy ideas are just not that great. Have been tried in the past and in work, have been tried in other places, and didn't work.
00;48;05;15 - 00;48;27;27
Aaron
And to me, it just really feels like people are voting on on vibes. They want to change, which is understandable. But they haven't done the critical reasoning necessary to know whether or not it's going to work or not. So I think we're going to run a natural experiment to see if that happens. But, I think those that have paid attention to this just know it's not going to it's not going to play out.
00;48;27;27 - 00;48;48;04
Aaron
It's not going to play out because things can't get done. It's not going to play out because the ideas aren't great. It's not going to play out because the vibes are really difficult to last. So my assumption is, this time next year, I'm sure the bloom will be fully off. And the question just will be like, how much damage has been inflicted, you know, in the process where will be inflicted?
00;48;48;06 - 00;49;10;10
Pri
I'm hoping not too much because, I mean, I agree, it's like it's like, okay, people wanted something different. So it's like, all right. But like, are they even going to get much of that different? It's more maybe the the signal of it being different, but the actual outcome of these policies is like a lot of what he's advocated, I don't even think is like feasible given the current budget issues in New York.
00;49;10;10 - 00;49;40;29
Pri
And like, unlike the federal budget, where you can just kind of run amok and like run into debt, you actually have to keep the city budget balance. So it's like, I don't understand how any of these ideas are actually going to happen. The only thing that I think it's signals is more, frankly, if we're talking about PR and storytelling, like seeing, you know, one of the most important cities in the world kind of have, a pretty unique change in its politics.
00;49;41;01 - 00;49;44;12
Pri
But like other than that, like any of this is actually going to happen.
00;49;44;15 - 00;50;00;07
Aaron
But I think that symbolism does matter. I think it's going to metastasize, you know, across the country. And then there's just going to be kind of a like a showdown, between two between basically like vibes and sound governance.
00;50;00;09 - 00;50;04;26
Chris
We're already in a showdown between vibes and sound governance. And it is national.
00;50;04;29 - 00;50;05;25
Pri
That's true.
00;50;05;28 - 00;50;30;17
Chris
And so I guess you're just saying it's coming from a new direction. Okay. I mean, I am definitely very like just pilled and agree with all your points that this ultimately was a win for ideology. Like, you know, as residents of the city, we understand like he can he can't pull any of those, revenue, revenue and taxation levers himself.
00;50;30;19 - 00;50;45;19
Chris
He's entirely dependent on Albany. He's dependent on Kathy Hochul, who, you know, let's not forget, delayed congestion pricing for the sake of, like, Westchester elections, right?
00;50;45;22 - 00;50;53;08
Aaron
Yeah. But who knows if she's even going to be governor, right? She's going to face a pretty formidable, reelection campaign. It looks like.
00;50;53;10 - 00;50;58;02
Chris
Well, I mean, we can argue she should have never been governor to begin with. Yeah.
00;50;58;05 - 00;50;58;19
Aaron
Very fair, you.
00;50;58;19 - 00;51;22;10
Chris
Know, but but let's, let's not go there right now. Yeah, I, I don't know, I mean, if you. Yes, if you walk through what he's proposing, like, there's very little of it, he can actually pull off. We saw some of this with the Blasio and de Blasio. To his credit, the only real good thing he did, was create pre-K in the city.
00;51;22;15 - 00;51;29;16
Chris
And I think that's been a I don't hear anyone calling to rollback pre-K right now.
00;51;29;18 - 00;51;41;26
Aaron
That's that's great. But I think the difference between de Blasio and what we're going to see is that I don't know if the other ideas are actually good, like on the face of them, they sound good.
00;51;41;28 - 00;51;46;00
Chris
Blasio had any good ideas? Yeah. Okay.
00;51;46;03 - 00;52;03;17
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, but I think that he came in. That was one of the first things he did. Right. It was like a clear need. I don't know if if the city is really clamoring for government run grocery stores. And I don't even think they've fully thought through the implications of free busses. Sounds great. Right?
00;52;03;17 - 00;52;15;27
Chris
Make sure you make any control over the MTA, like his control is limited to four board seats. I mean, new Jersey has probably as much impact on his bus program as he does.
00;52;15;29 - 00;52;23;21
Pri
And Chris, we were talking about this like separately. I feel like in Martha, but like the NYPD is probably just going to shut him out for like four years. I would think.
00;52;23;23 - 00;52;25;24
Chris
They're pretty good at that. Yeah.
00;52;25;26 - 00;52;30;13
Pri
Which is similar to what they did with de Blasio. So but I, I yeah.
00;52;30;13 - 00;52;48;27
Aaron
So let's play it out. So Chris, let's say you're you're right. And I'm I think the larger that a lot of it will be ineffectual. So where does it land in like two years? Is it just like now all that energy just gets dissipated. Does it get absorbed in in some different way? Maybe. And hopefully that is the case.
00;52;48;27 - 00;53;02;19
Aaron
There's a couple good new ideas. Like I do think universal pre-K was a great idea. I think a lot of people needed that in order to live and work in the city. Do you see it, like getting moderated over time, or how do you see it playing out?
00;53;02;26 - 00;53;29;27
Chris
I don't know, that's a good question. You know, I try not to pay close attention to politics. A few things do come to mind, right? Like, I think within progressivism as a political movement, I find it to be useful when you have a few, very strong progressive voices working within larger bodies. Right. Like, I'm an AOC fan.
00;53;29;29 - 00;53;53;17
Chris
She was my congresswoman, briefly, until they redistricted. I think she actually serves a very good and positive role. I can say the same thing about Bernie Sanders. Right at the same time, like they are in an executive position. And so, you know, I think they act more as a tempering power. Unlike Democrat Democratic Wall Street machinery.
00;53;53;20 - 00;54;15;00
Chris
And I'd much rather have more of them than Liz Warren's right living in in Congress. Then as we get down to New York, right, like we are still living in one of the worst New York mayors since, I don't know, Jimmy Durante, I can't even remember the name of him because I didn't live.
00;54;15;00 - 00;54;18;24
Aaron
In Dinkins era. Dinkins, one of those guys.
00;54;18;27 - 00;54;47;18
Chris
Eric Adams, is a colossally bad mayor, corrupt to the bone. His, I find it ironic that his fire commissioner is going to resign over Mamdani stance on Israel when the fact that he just sold that commissioner ship. Right. Like all Adams effectively did, was like, figure out what petty forms of at least this is what is alleged, right?
00;54;47;21 - 00;55;13;01
Chris
Was what forms of like petty grift and graft by speeding up approval processes, fire inspections, building inspections. Right. Getting free trips to Turkey and the city is doing five, I would say like we're having a renaissance, but like, we're in New York and, and I don't notice like I felt things were the city was in a tougher spot under de Blasio than it was under Adams.
00;55;13;01 - 00;55;41;24
Chris
And so to some degree, like who then there is, you know, maybe like, yes, it matters. At the same time, like the city is resilient enough that it can also not matter. And I guess the final thought right around Adams was in the last election, the city's African-American community was the kingmaker, right? They were the political force, and they were the ones who, you know, ultimately determined who became the Democratic mayor in the city.
00;55;41;27 - 00;56;19;07
Chris
That wasn't the case this go around. You barely heard, you know, they they did vote like majority Mamdani. He carried them very, very strongly. But that wasn't the story of the political sea change. And so who who is able to act in a given moment in time is constantly shifting. And so, yeah, this probably, blunt like progressivism as an electoral factor in the city once we're into like two years of New York City deep state blocking them down at every turn like that probably neuters progressivism.
00;56;19;09 - 00;56;37;02
Aaron
Yeah, I do think that there are those deep state elements in the New York Democratic Party, although, I don't know them, that well, that the kind of feel like there are those elements, at least, I guess maybe it comes down to just like, how how resilient do you think New York is and just how, you know, I don't know the answer to that.
00;56;37;08 - 00;56;59;29
Aaron
You know, it feels pretty fragile just in terms of really? Yeah. I just think, you know, cities and a lot of municipalities, they just they operate on kind of big budgets, but they're, they're pretty fragile. I think people's decisions to kind of move or leave a place are, a bit more fluid than I think people want to give them credit to, or 2 or 4.
00;57;00;04 - 00;57;18;12
Aaron
And I just think a lot of the quality of life issues, which have slipped a bit, you know, under the Adams administration and the, the de Blasio administration, like at some point there's a tipping point. So I think folks that are worried are just maybe they have a different view on, you know, like how stable the city is.
00;57;18;15 - 00;57;40;08
Aaron
You know, my view is just like all major urban areas are really locus of white collar work. And I think when we look at, you know, the AI revolution, it's really going to hit those white collar jobs the hardest, it seems. And maybe that's wrong. But unless you know what's on the other end of that and how you kind of reform, I think that that's, concerning.
00;57;40;08 - 00;58;06;22
Aaron
And I don't think anybody's spending enough time on either side of the aisles really thinking about what that looks like and what the path path out is. But if that's the case, then you're not only dealing with, you know, potentially ineffectual or worse, like bad governance. You're, you're looking at, you know, also just like, yeah, a huge hit, the economic vitality of all cities, including New York.
00;58;06;24 - 00;58;37;16
Chris
Along that vein, I would be what I'm most worried about is the fact that you have two ideological poles, in Trump and Mamdani. And that is the city has another nine over 11, has another Sandy. The post could be running, rerunning that forward to city Drop dead and just changing out the names that it's putting in. The title and subtitle like that to me, is is my biggest fear of the current setup.
00;58;37;19 - 00;58;59;23
Aaron
I think that's going to happen. Yeah, because I think there it is like such, like, you know, two very different polls that are pulling, you know, like the progressives in New York pulling one way nationally, it pulling another way without really a clear sign of moderation. And maybe, you know, maybe this election starts to moderate things a bit, which I'd appreciate.
00;58;59;26 - 00;59;23;23
Aaron
But let's say that that doesn't happen. I just think that New York's going to be, you know, really under fire from national politics. And I think the same thing because a lot of the policy points or the kind of mobility of the ideas related to it, don't take into consideration the complexity of how the city operates. I just, you know, I think it's great in a stump speech to say, hey, like, we can take you on.
00;59;23;23 - 00;59;45;01
Aaron
But when 10% of New York's budget just evaporates, or 6 or 7%, I forgot the exact number. So don't quote me on that. I just think that that's going to be a challenge. So, you know, if you have bad governance plus like a smaller budget, you know, plus people leaving because they don't like the vibes or they think the vibes are hostile to them, in some, in some capacity.
00;59;45;01 - 01;00;03;10
Aaron
Like it really is a recipe for that post headline. Chris. And then if there's just like one match that's kind of thrown into it, like, like a bad event or, you know, something, something that goes too far, I don't know, I think I think you're looking at New York worse than it was in the 70s.
01;00;03;12 - 01;00;05;11
Pri
Damn, I don't think.
01;00;05;11 - 01;00;27;07
Chris
Possibly I think the other like to just, you know, paint the picture a little further. Right. Is is your Schumer problem? And I view him as a problem because I think he's a, ineffectual leader who shouldn't be holding that post anymore. And I was actually thrilled to see Nancy Pelosi is finally hanging it up that.
01;00;27;10 - 01;00;29;11
Pri
Yeah, I like that, too. I'm excited.
01;00;29;11 - 01;00;33;10
Chris
I mean, she's 85 and the two of them,
01;00;33;12 - 01;00;34;07
Pri
Yeah.
01;00;34;09 - 01;01;03;15
Chris
I mean, Pelosi and Schumer as congressional leaders, they got steamrolled and no one ever calls them out for how many L's they took. And so to get back to this New York City, Washington type of thing, right. Like, I guess I was fortunate enough to grow up in the 80s in Massachusetts, where you had Dukakis running the state, you had Ray Flynn as your mayor, and he was neither here nor there.
01;01;03;15 - 01;01;29;23
Chris
He was like a pretty good mayor, all things considered. But like, you could march your way up right from Ray Flynn Dukakis, and then tip O'Neill and Ted Kennedy. And like, you had this, you know, level of, like, synchronicity all the way up that that we're all walking in lockstep and. Right. New York does not have that at all.
01;01;29;23 - 01;01;58;16
Chris
Like, it can't even get its it's, you know, blueness on the same page at all. And so like, we do we do need to like start replacing players. And maybe this current alignment of players. Right. Is, is just set up to be at loggerheads. But when, when people hold these spots, you know, ad infinitum and they're 85 and they're still running, you know, holding any sort of leadership positions like that can't help.
01;01;58;16 - 01;02;12;08
Chris
And so, yes, hopefully, you know, we keep moving pieces around the board and we get back to, you know, sort of alignments up and down that can can work together, which is the.
01;02;12;08 - 01;02;13;00
Aaron
Hope.
01;02;13;02 - 01;02;16;24
Pri
Yeah. So that's, that's hoping to get closer to the middle for everyone.
01;02;16;24 - 01;02;24;18
Chris
But I think that society embracing capital, classic liberalism since 2024.
01;02;24;18 - 01;02;26;17
Pri
Is the way that is the way.
01;02;26;19 - 01;02;49;12
Aaron
I think the other thing I'm a little worried about, and people may disagree with me about it, but I feel like, on the right, they're they're pretty transparent about their positions, and they are pretty extreme to many. And many of them are extreme to me, but they're very transparent about it. What I worry about is that the progressives are not transparent about it.
01;02;49;12 - 01;03;07;06
Aaron
They are basically very radical under the hood, and they're trying to like, gloss it up and pretend that they're not. And so I think it's that wild card that gives me a lot of unease. It's just like, you actually don't know what they're actually going to advocate for. There's like a little bit more of an insidious ness on the left.
01;03;07;06 - 01;03;08;02
Aaron
I think,
01;03;08;05 - 01;03;09;28
Pri
It's like an unknown.
01;03;10;01 - 01;03;20;25
Aaron
Yeah. And I think there's plenty of insidiousness on the right, but at least at this point, we kind of know broadly like what that looks like. It doesn't mean that it hasn't metastasized to something uglier. I think there's evidence that tether.
01;03;20;26 - 01;03;23;24
Pri
Like using AI, it is to do it just like.
01;03;23;27 - 01;03;39;10
Aaron
Yeah, but I think it's that journey that I'm not that that gives me unease at least. Chris, I don't know if it gives you guys unease, but I just feel like these guys are a lump and it's not just guys like these folks are a lot more radical than their packaging them up in their TikTok videos.
01;03;39;13 - 01;04;20;02
Chris
Yeah. All right. I think that's a valid concern. And I have a hunch that when cards actually end up on the table, the people who are supporting them don't share those views. And that's why they're not spoken. I would also say, though, one of the big reasons for the Democrats downfall is mainstream DNC, since from Obama onwards operated the same way in which they said one thing and wanted and did another, and you just needed to see like 17 years of that playing out to be like, oh, okay, you're absolutely full of shit.
01;04;20;02 - 01;04;56;16
Chris
You drop heart emojis in your messaging and then you turn around and you actually back X, Y, and Z, right? Like that. Hypocrisy is what, led to their demise or is leading to their demise. And so if the ask is for transparency, like, yes, let's get that transparency, let's stop. Like having politicians play lip service to one thing, and then the second they have a vote, you know, actually go and just do whatever the fuck they want, which is, you know, pay service to their donor class.
01;04;56;18 - 01;04;57;07
Pri
Yeah.
01;04;57;09 - 01;05;23;19
Aaron
But I think that is the worry, right? Because, I mean, it doesn't seem like as there's transparency there, that there was much accountability, you know, for some of those positions, you know, I think it loops back to what you were saying previous on the importance of media storytelling, etc. it really carries the day, and it just doesn't seem like there's a class of folks that are critically thinking on both, you know, regardless of your political persuasion.
01;05;23;19 - 01;05;31;08
Aaron
So we'll see where it lands. Yeah. This is this is just like a general critique, but it definitely feels like that's the era that we live in.
01;05;31;10 - 01;05;36;13
Pri
It's like packaged as a consumer good. No, it's not like like yeah.
01;05;36;13 - 01;05;48;17
Aaron
But it's like it's package as a consumer. Good. But then you open the box and then you realize it's it's a lot darker than what you purchased. Right. And so but I think that's the concern and it's and it's on both sides. Right.
01;05;48;20 - 01;06;02;13
Chris
It's on both sides. And the real bitch about it is they've exempted themselves from any form of the FDA warning labels. Right. Like consumer products, at least they used to less not more.
01;06;02;15 - 01;06;04;20
Aaron
So some liability.
01;06;04;22 - 01;06;36;19
Chris
Yeah. It is like, you know, it's like they have like the same qualified immunity as law enforcement. And they've also freed themselves from any form of, like, libel, slander. One thing that always killed me, like when I, when I was running the mobile operator, how much f and work we had to put in to abiding by, the canned spam and the bulk communication regulations because it has real serious teeth.
01;06;36;19 - 01;07;05;12
Chris
And there was a whole, cottage industry of lawyers who, did very, very well on, like, violating, you know, like suing people who violated SMS broadcasting. Shit. Politicians, none of that. You know, it was just the absolute hypocrisy as I like it stopped for the 400 time from someone supporting, you know, some some blue progressive candidate. And it's just like, stop fucking spamming me.
01;07;05;15 - 01;07;13;17
Chris
Like, you have a legal immunity. And it kills me that, like, this level of hypocrisy exists, but, you know, it's the world we live in.
01;07;13;19 - 01;07;29;09
Aaron
Well, I think it's the hypocrisy. It's a great it's a great point. I just think it's that I don't know, that level of hypocrisy that's leading to some sort of reckoning. And that's what I worry about both locally and kind of nationally. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but it seems like it's.
01;07;29;11 - 01;07;30;07
Pri
I'll say it again.
01;07;30;11 - 01;07;42;16
Aaron
It's it's brewing. I don't know, I don't know if it's fully the fourth turning, but, it definitely feels like we're in the middle of something. I think that's what gives a lot of people such unease across the board.
01;07;42;19 - 01;07;45;04
Chris
Well, Aaron, you can always become a mold person.
01;07;45;07 - 01;07;59;26
Aaron
I could I could become that, or I could just, continue to talk to, you know, my my bot, my, I won't call it a slave, but I don't know if I'm going to continue, getting a companion to to to see things.
01;07;59;28 - 01;08;01;17
Chris
But we can start falling.
01;08;01;17 - 01;08;03;20
Aaron
At the interesting times.
01;08;03;23 - 01;08;13;04
Chris
It's cooler. Oh, my sidekick, because now now you've, like, properly distance yourself from the the ick of companionship. It's just like, yeah, he's my Robin.
01;08;13;06 - 01;08;14;15
Aaron
Yeah, I mean, it definitely better.
01;08;14;15 - 01;08;23;12
Chris
Michael McMahon. Maybe. Maybe I'll just start calling my bot Ed McMahon and I'll start treating him like Johnny Carson. Would that make you feel better?
01;08;23;15 - 01;08;25;18
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, maybe a little bit, yeah.
01;08;25;21 - 01;08;48;19
Pri
On that note, should we wrap? Yeah, guys, I guess on that note, I'll call on the show. Welcome to that society. It's me, Chris, Aaron and Derek talking all things tech, AI, crypto, art and more. Just as a reminder, these thoughts and opinion are on an honorable employer. And this is not financial advice. Let's go.
01;08;48;21 - 01;08;56;02
Aaron
Let's go.
01;08;56;04 - 01;09;08;19
Aaron
To.