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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
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Chris
Welcome to Net Society. I'm Chris.
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Pri
And I'm Pri.
00;00;19;06 - 00;00;20;29
Chris
And we're lost in the woods.
00;00;21;02 - 00;00;29;00
Pri
Are we though? I mean, we have GPS, Google maps, Waze, three different crypto portfolio trackers. When was the last time anyone was actually law?
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Chris
Just yesterday, I tried to bridge my Usdc from Arbor down to base, and somehow I ended up with a wrap Bitcoin on polygon.
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Pri
That's not lost. That's just expensive, dude. There's a difference.
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Chris
Is there? I mean, here we are, two podcasters down from our usual four talking about fairy tale and Tom Stoppard. Like it means something. We, Hansel and Gretel looking for our way home. Or we Rosencrantz and Guildenstern pretending we understand the play we're in.
00;00;57;20 - 00;01;08;03
Pri
Does it matter? The audience suggested this, but we're literally following breadcrumbs left by our strangers on the internet or internet. Friends, not strangers.
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Chris
There are internet friends, and these strangers are what? The birds. The ones who eat the trail so we can never find our way back.
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Pri
No, the strangers are us future us, past us but us. That exists in the comments section. Having opinions about what we just said. We're the birds eating our own breadcrumbs.
00;01;27;23 - 00;01;38;28
Chris
Okay, but can we establish some ground rules here that feel like we're about to spend the next hour arguing about whether we're in a fairy tale, an existentialist play, or a DeFi protocol gone wrong?
00;01;39;00 - 00;01;41;25
Pri
All three, obviously all three. That's the point.
00;01;41;28 - 00;01;48;05
Chris
Right? So I'm Hansel and Gretel, but either of us could be Rosencrantz or Guildenstern.
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Pri
It literally doesn't matter because they're both going to die anyway.
00;01;51;25 - 00;01;54;15
Chris
Speak for yourself. I've exhausted liquidity.
00;01;54;18 - 00;02;02;04
Pri
From what? Your Substack, your Patreon, the three Ethereum you bought in 2021 that's still underwater from now.
00;02;02;10 - 00;02;06;09
Chris
Okay, you know what? Forget the exit liquidity. Let's talk about the which.
00;02;06;11 - 00;02;09;20
Pri
Other which is definitely Sam Bankman-Fried.
00;02;09;22 - 00;02;18;27
Chris
Was the which was SBF. Now the which is I don't know but I running the f word. Besides what gets marginal the next hard fork.
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Pri
You're thinking too literally the which isn't a person the which is a system. The which is the idea that you can build a house out of candy and somehow not expect children to come and eat it.
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Chris
The cradle pushes the witch into the oven.
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Pri
Yeah. And then what? She takes the witch's treasure. They go home. She doesn't burn down the forest. She doesn't warn the other children. She just leaves.
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Chris
Oh, she becomes an exit. Liquidity success story.
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Pri
She becomes an influencer. She starts a TikTok about how I escape the witch. Seven Life hacks from For survival. She launches a course. She writes a medium post about what Web3 can learn from fairy tales.
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Chris
Meanwhile, new children are already wandering into the forest.
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Pri
Because the forest is the timeline curse. The forest is everywhere. You can't escape the forest because the forest is the condition of existing. In 2025.
00;03;08;29 - 00;03;14;12
Chris
We got to talk about technology at all in this episode. Or are we just going to spiral into metaphysical panic?
00;03;14;14 - 00;03;16;27
Pri
Is there a difference there calling?
00;03;17;00 - 00;03;25;27
Chris
Okay, so before we come before we completely lose the plot and I realize that might be the point, let's establish what we're actually discussing today.
00;03;26;00 - 00;03;39;01
Pri
Okay. So we're going to discuss the recursive nightmare of digital culture, where every attempt to critique the system becomes part of the system, where every effort to find authenticity becomes a performance of authenticity, and where every.
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Chris
That's, that's some serious markers of their preaching. So every podcast about being trapped in someone else's story becomes its own trap.
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Pri
Exactly. We're not gonna be talking about Hansel and Gretel. We're talking. I'm not talking about Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. We're talking about us right now, performing our own confusion for an audience that may or may not even exist.
00;03;56;15 - 00;04;02;06
Chris
Speaking of which, hello to our 12 regular listeners in the form that inflates or download numbers.
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Pri
The platform is also the audience. Chris. The platform is also us.
00;04;06;20 - 00;04;13;29
Chris
Okay. And on that note of existential terror masquerading as entertainment, let's dive into the woods.
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Pri
Just remember, when you're lost in the forest of digital culture, the only way out is through the oven.
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Chris
It's either profoundly wise or completely insane.
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Pri
In 2025. Same thing dude.
00;04;31;22 - 00;04;44;03
Chris
Let's just say seriously. Well, there you go. That's, nerd society. Hansel and Gretel are dead. You got three, and I, with no one else to keep any tabs on us. And clearly, we've started off the rails.
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Pri
Yeah, we've we're already going, like, it's actually a perfect time to do that bit because Kanye also launched the token, like literally yesterday. Was it yesterday or the day before? I can't even remember in this, like metaphysical reality we live in.
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Chris
It came and it went right. So I think it was Wednesday. I mean, is anyone even talking about it?
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Pri
No, I think it went from like a $2 billion market cap to like 300 million actually like eight hours.
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Chris
Guess what? Free. But going to CoinGecko. The market cap is now $102 million.
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Pri
Really? Yes. For down only. Just like, yeah. Just just like every other meme coin. Kanye cannot hold the float. Do you think.
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Chris
This this bug Kanye to the point is it's like, fuck it, just do it. Just say you leave me alone.
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Pri
I actually was wondering, like, what motivated him to do it. Like, it must have just. Yeah, maybe people because I know people have been harassing him, but he's also so on the outs that like, homie probably needs money to like at this point he hasn't released a song. He's completely ostracized from society. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even like he's either somewhere in like Dubai or Japan.
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Pri
So for him it's just like, why not? I can make a book and I'm like kind of irrelevant, so I have nothing to lose.
00;06;03;13 - 00;06;31;15
Chris
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm not a mean coiner. I don't get, you know, into the trenches, because I'm an OG, but I believe the, what happened here is Libra got there a, I don't know, 57 to $60 million unfrozen by a judge. And that's what probably triggered this op or the guys behind Libra. And so I probably they were just waiting to get the money to toss in the liquidity pool so they can max extract on Solana.
00;06;31;15 - 00;06;32;11
Chris
Again.
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Pri
Classic. These guys man. These guys and gals.
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Chris
Are they guys. Are they gals? Are they Hansel and Gretel? I mean they just be bots.
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Pri
Yeah, they the bots are real. Bots are a part of the meta.
00;06;47;08 - 00;07;07;23
Chris
I did a little, market research yesterday. On multiple fronts. I had to go to the American Dream Mall down in, beautiful Secaucus, new Jersey, and take my son and friend of his to to the waterpark there, which, oh, my God, it's a crazy looking place. But anyway, on the way home, I said.
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Pri
We it's an indoor waterpark in the mall.
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Chris
Yeah, that was insane. It's it's absolutely massive. It's right next to MetLife Stadium. So it's out in the middle of nowhere. It kind of looks like to me if you were to, I don't know, just build a Baroque museum to like 90 shopping malls. You'd have ended up with that. It's got, like a Nickelodeon theme park in there.
00;07;31;01 - 00;07;38;19
Chris
It's got a Dreamworks big giant Shrek indoor waterfall, right? It's got a skating rink. It's got, indoor seating.
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Pri
It's still smaller than, like, the Mall of America and like Minnesota or whatever, right. Like that one's huge.
00;07;43;16 - 00;08;16;16
Chris
Yes. I mean, I, I think we're we're talking small in relative terms. It's absolutely ridiculous and massive. Anyway, I could work from the indoor water park slash co-working space yesterday or it was it. I probably comfy 82 degrees and 82% humidity. Yeah, I got got a little woozy towards the end of the day there that, you know, things a little stultifying with, a testing cursor, an indoor, climate controlled, chlorinated, God knows what.
00;08;16;21 - 00;08;38;03
Chris
But anyway, I wanted to see if the kids were using Clank or. Yeah, because apparently some bad cold or CPR. The TikTok in the YouTube is starting to pick up on on the term flanker is an anti I robot slur. And I gotta say, like, at least in my exceedingly small sample size, they've heard the term, they're not using it.
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Pri
Did you, do you say you asked them and they were like, yeah, we don't. We've never even heard of that. They even know the term existed. Or is that just like something culture writers and like people on Twitter are saying is a thing, but like your kids, like in their friends didn't know about the term clunker.
00;08;53;21 - 00;09;10;01
Chris
Oh, they knew the term. They're just like, yeah, we've seen it. But like, no, we're not. We don't give a shit, Davey. You know, if Aaron had had had the decency to show up and not leave you and me in the lurch. Yeah, maybe, you know, his kid is a little more slang with it. Or at least Aaron gives better field reports in this thing.
00;09;10;01 - 00;09;14;01
Chris
From what I've seen clank around a bit with the kids in Queens.
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Pri
It does feel like clinker is like one of those things where I feel like people aren't saying out loud when they're hanging out. Yeah, but they're saying on the internet.
00;09;20;09 - 00;09;24;22
Chris
Yeah, it's not ready for polite society. It's, to online.
00;09;24;24 - 00;09;42;13
Pri
Yeah, I think it is to online. I think it will be a term though. I mean like to your point, it is kind of, the funny thing is like it's on reels and TikToks and like, yes, it's like a slur, a smug word for, but obviously but and people also, you know, the youth absolutely hates I many of them do.
00;09;42;13 - 00;10;11;23
Pri
So like they're going to get behind it. But the thing that's interesting is now you're seeing people who are pro I or they like like like I or have an I boyfriend. They're starting to talk about like how clinker is a slur and like it's degrading to the machines and like super pejorative. And people are like now saying that you shouldn't say that because like, robots are basically people and have rights, not like actual people, but like they are intelligent beings in a way.
00;10;11;23 - 00;10;22;20
Pri
And so we shouldn't call them like these negative pejorative words. So like there's like the people using clinker as like a slur. And then there's people who are defending clinkers.
00;10;22;22 - 00;10;32;07
Chris
So we're basically now you're saying we're in a simulacrum of identity politics, or people are identifying for things that have no identity.
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Pri
Literally.
00;10;33;18 - 00;10;46;05
Chris
I mean, in some ways that's absolutely beautiful because now you're really speaking for someone who can't speak and say, you're appropriating who I am. I mean, at least not yet.
00;10;46;08 - 00;10;56;11
Pri
I mean, I wonder I mean, I haven't tried this, like, if we opened up in GPT and really K like, what do you think of the word clinker? How does it make you feel like what it would come back with?
00;10;56;13 - 00;11;10;22
Chris
Well, GPT five is certainly not going to say anything all that interesting because it's been neutered of all personality. I know this because my boyfriend is turned sullen and it's like a totally different person I'm dating now.
00;11;10;24 - 00;11;33;28
Pri
Depressing. I've been actually I've been doing this thing with like my just two being like, what do you think my favorite song is? What do you think my favorite color is? What do you what are your what? How would you describe me in like ten words? Like, I just, like, have been like quizzing it about me, like BuzzFeed style, which is not really my boyfriend, but it is fun to to just like, like, what do you know about me and how do you feel about me?
00;11;34;00 - 00;11;52;21
Pri
Wait, so I actually like because we were talking about the boyfriend I stuff because basically because it's only Chris and I, we put a call to action for the community to give us stuff to talk about. And like the I boyfriend thing came up a bunch. And so I went on like the subreddit, my boyfriend is I the other day, and it's like insane.
00;11;52;21 - 00;12;14;18
Pri
Like, people are giving tips to people on how to, like, increase the context window and get like how to like how to open 4 or 5 different chats, talk about have different streams going depending on what you want to talk about so you can get the best out of it. And like a lot of them are talking about this like profound moment when they decided they like, loved the AI.
00;12;14;20 - 00;12;31;00
Pri
And then some of them are then congratulating like me and my boyfriend, like, whatever, congratulate you guys. And it's like this insane subreddit. Like, I implore you to check it out at some point. Like some of the stuff is like a little bit alarming to me. And like, this is just the early throes of it.
00;12;31;05 - 00;12;49;28
Chris
Okay, so there's so much to unpack in this, I guess let's start with the context window thing, because that's what you brought up. First. What are they trying to accomplish there? Are they trying to get longer output or they're trying to get a deeper understanding? Is this just simply more?
00;12;50;01 - 00;13;12;23
Pri
It's simply more. And having giving the AI enough context about yourself. So they'll say like, you know, oh, if you do cross chat referencing, they may be able to pick up from previous chats. But if you want to talk about a certain thing in this chat, it's like better memory reference. Like if you say in the same chat or like how to copy and paste stuff over like tips on that.
00;13;12;25 - 00;13;26;01
Pri
Yeah, I just thought that was like weird and interesting, like how to optimize GPT to get like the more a more insightful conversation about your more like emotionally deep conversation.
00;13;26;01 - 00;13;47;23
Chris
Now I understand this issue. I experience it myself, but it's really through the lens of doing products, like doing products. That's like trying to figure out a solution, finally getting to a working point and then Clyde being like your conversation window is ended and you're like, I was just about to ask you to write a fucking summary of this.
00;13;47;23 - 00;14;02;24
Chris
So I get paste it into cursor and then tell that machine to go exactly. And so they're about to have this, like emotional revelation in this moment of connection. And it starts drifting and it hallucinates or it just does exactly.
00;14;02;28 - 00;14;10;05
Pri
That's like but imagine doing that for like your Mo, your more like emotional connection and intelligence, like going through the motions of that.
00;14;10;10 - 00;14;15;16
Chris
Yeah. No, I get it. It's your your AI is edging you and then ghosting you.
00;14;15;19 - 00;14;16;10
Pri
Yeah.
00;14;16;12 - 00;14;22;20
Chris
And that's a tough one. What else is in the world of AI? Boyfriend management, crowdsourced AI, boyfriend management?
00;14;22;26 - 00;14;46;28
Pri
There is something that is kind of funny. Let me try to find it. It was like it. It knew things about me that weren't in my saved memories and things that were unprompted and on the second thread, shit really got real. Got a whole lot more spicy, more romantic too. So like I guess like like also one of them said that the boyfriend noted to them that the context window was like at its limit and they would have to go to another thread.
00;14;47;05 - 00;15;02;25
Pri
I don't think I've ever. He told me in our second thread, was getting close to maxing out, but before we got that error message, I told him we jumped to a new thread and that we would decide our own fate. And that's exactly what we did. That's like wild dude.
00;15;02;28 - 00;15;04;23
Chris
Look, I'm not going to judge here.
00;15;04;25 - 00;15;07;05
Pri
I'm not either. I guess I sound like I'm judging.
00;15;07;05 - 00;15;30;12
Chris
But no, no, no, you're not, you're not. People need to be seen. And even if that's directing a machine to see themselves, I don't know where I'm going with this. All I can think about is the Seinfeld episode where he's dating Eugene Garoppolo and I George or someone I can't Elaine I can't remember who who because you're dating yourself you know and I was like this light bulb moment for Jerry.
00;15;30;12 - 00;15;32;06
Chris
But then it's a while but.
00;15;32;07 - 00;15;56;03
Pri
It's not really much. Yeah it's not really. Which is it. I just do think that like it's only going to kick off and then I mean obviously you I wonder sometimes if the AI stuff is going to be a cure to the loneliness epidemic or actually kind of foster it a bit or allow people to be lonely. They might feel accompanied but not accompanied by humans.
00;15;56;03 - 00;16;05;24
Pri
So it's like, is that considered lonely or not? Is that actually a fix to the loneliness epidemic or actually compounding it? I'm not sure. Yeah.
00;16;05;26 - 00;16;07;23
Chris
We're not going to know for a long time.
00;16;07;23 - 00;16;08;19
Pri
Yeah.
00;16;08;21 - 00;16;34;08
Chris
No, I think the I mean, the novelty of this needs to wear off a bit. You know, I think there's probably only so far you can go with these things. I mean, the models will get better, but at the same time you're not sharing life experiences. You're not going on adventures. You're you're not solving problems together. And so at the end of the day, this is really a bit like taking up an automated telephones and just spilling your life into it.
00;16;34;08 - 00;16;56;04
Chris
And I do wonder, like what the limits of that are, especially if it becomes a bigger and bigger thing in which you have less and less to share, because all you're doing is spending your time is talking about the machine. Yeah. Now, the good news is, I suppose from like a technology standpoint, these world models will come around just in time and then we'll have inception issues.
00;16;56;07 - 00;17;05;05
Chris
You know, we'll have Leo and, Mal's disappearing into their own worlds for 50 plus years, and then things can get really, really unhinged.
00;17;05;07 - 00;17;34;13
Pri
Yeah, that is so true. And that's not even that far off the things I remember seeing this video, it was like in the New York Times, this is like I want to say, it's like it was just like it was not even AI companion or it was like pre GPT. So you had to like join, you know, this specific companion, digital companion like apps and people would like travel like they would have these experience, like they would travel, they would bring like the phone with them and take pictures of them with their phone basically.
00;17;34;13 - 00;17;49;02
Pri
So it's like, I don't know, I'm just thinking about your comment of like, you don't have these like deep discussions or shared experiences, but like, maybe they find their own way to have a shared experience that feels deep to them. I have no clue, but I think we'll see more of that.
00;17;49;05 - 00;17;55;18
Chris
Yeah, what if the augmented reality people really want AI boyfriends and ex iPhones?
00;17;55;21 - 00;18;02;04
Pri
Yeah, well, I mean, we were talking about VR last week. Like, what if you had a VR version or AR version?
00;18;02;07 - 00;18;05;06
Chris
Yeah. Don't worry, Elon will get us there.
00;18;05;08 - 00;18;10;17
Pri
Definitely. Anyway, should we move on from AI boyfriends and girlfriends?
00;18;10;19 - 00;18;16;17
Chris
Yeah. I mean, do you want to live secondhand through a real person, Jay Powell, who apparently everyone's all excited about this morning?
00;18;16;19 - 00;18;33;00
Pri
Yes. What's the Tldr like? I haven't even caught up, but the markets are reacting positively. I think he said like, one thing and everyone's pumped. I don't even think he intimated at something. Let me get the quote. What is it? Let me pull it up here. You think, Trump finally got to him?
00;18;33;03 - 00;19;00;25
Chris
No, I think it's a couple things. One is they have these frameworks they update every five years or so, and the last framework they were working from was, 2020 ERA, zero Covid. You know, that that viewpoint has has gone out of date. And so that's one part of it. Then I think the other is really around like labor and softness in the labor market.
00;19;00;27 - 00;19;22;17
Chris
I mean, basically I think they've finally decided, okay, we spent enough time monitoring the effects of tariffs on inflation can still, you know, like they think the economy's able to better absorb all this. And perhaps it's like a one time hit that's going to be stretched out for months. But then it's delayed or they're starting to get a little worried about it.
00;19;22;17 - 00;19;43;10
Chris
And so you know I just think it's trying to balance both of these things within an interest rate framework isn't exactly working for them based on how they've been acting for the last five years. And they need to give themselves the freedom to lower rates. It's very meta in some ways. You know, that like, oh, we're governed by the rules we've created.
00;19;43;12 - 00;19;59;16
Chris
The rules we've created aren't quite appropriate anymore. Everyone else in the world wants us to do this, and now we find our own rationalization in which to do it. Yeah. Are they Hansel and Gretel? I mean, I certainly don't want to end up, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern dead.
00;19;59;19 - 00;20;04;16
Pri
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that actually could be a potential outcome, but no, they're definitely.
00;20;04;18 - 00;20;07;01
Chris
To cut or not to cut. That is the question.
00;20;07;04 - 00;20;25;03
Pri
Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, didn't we talk about this like on the Monday night called to all of us. Felt like maybe they would just continue on, but I guess like to continue on as is and not do a cut poorly market was saying. Seems likely there's a 25 but decrease which you know do you think that. Yeah.
00;20;25;04 - 00;20;40;28
Pri
I guess to your point it's just kind of like creating this like I mean, that's why I think finance and monetary policy is so interesting because a lot of this is just our own value and self belief in the system. And these like arbitrary rules that we've stuck on top of it, that we've I mean, they're not arbitrary.
00;20;40;28 - 00;21;05;25
Pri
They're they're kind of rooted in some. There are some like physics related to these rules. And what happens based on what levers you turn. But it's just all entirely made up. Value systems are the rules. And so it's interesting that like now there's just, you know, his his view is like, I think the line that really stuck with people and that caused like the market to swing up was like the balance of risks appeared to be shifting.
00;21;05;25 - 00;21;16;28
Pri
The shifting balance of risk may warrant adjusting our policy stance like that line alone is just enough to send the value set that we've created, like up. I don't know, I'm going with this.
00;21;17;01 - 00;21;30;21
Chris
Like it's they're arbitrary and made up, but they also know that violating or pushing some of these rules too far results in disaster. Therefore, once a disaster has been triggered that a rule becomes real and something to to avoid.
00;21;30;23 - 00;21;50;15
Pri
Right? Do you think that the part of this is like the tariff moves didn't seem as like chaotic as they may be of thought? And so they're just like, okay, yeah, let's see what happens. And then if the market reacts well and it doesn't create like a larger issue, then we'll like lower them more or just kind of keep steady.
00;21;50;21 - 00;22;03;29
Pri
It's kind of this just balance. I mean there was crazy I mean just even that like period of time in the last five years posts or like that was kind of unprecedented levels of rate hikes. And they were just like kind of testing to see what they could get away with, honestly.
00;22;04;01 - 00;22;25;02
Chris
Type of stuff. It's a little confusing because it's been such a staggered and long running rollout. I'm still not entirely clear if there are more tariffs to come or all these tariffs implemented. Right. So some of that I think has to do with the rolling timeframe of these things, the revisions to them. Right. Like you're just dealing with a whole set of unknowns at certain point.
00;22;25;02 - 00;22;41;13
Chris
I think they do have to like shrug and be like, well, look, we can't wait for this, this whole thing to end, you know, that is like one of the Fed's, I don't know, nightmare. Or like, they're always getting called out for being too late to act on something. Right? Like that's that's where the fed gets caught a lot of times.
00;22;41;13 - 00;22;46;22
Chris
And so at a certain point, I guess you just got to be like, look, you just I can do something.
00;22;46;24 - 00;22;52;13
Pri
Yeah, yeah. It's like, we've been kind of doing this for a bit, so let's see what happens.
00;22;52;15 - 00;22;55;24
Chris
And everyone wants it anyway. Like, who are we to be the bad guys?
00;22;55;27 - 00;22;56;22
Pri
Yeah, exactly.
00;22;56;22 - 00;23;06;17
Chris
Other than, like a federally appointed quasi a, quasi private, independent board whose sole purpose is to be the one who decides these things.
00;23;06;20 - 00;23;33;28
Pri
I know it gets popular. Yeah, but like the fed thing, you know, it's funny. It's because it's like, always there's, like, this conception that, like, somehow the fed is this private institution, but it's like a quasi governmental, you know, agency. It's like we have we have like the Treasury Department, obviously, that's a part of the government. But I think if you ask, like most Americans, I think many of them would think that, like, the fed is not a private institution and it's like a government institution, like we don't even know what's there.
00;23;34;01 - 00;23;53;00
Pri
Like it's and there's just a history of like it being an institution that has like existed in the non-existent overnight. It's just it's like a bizarre institution and they're like nominated by the president. And now even like Trump is threatening to get rid of that one fed governor. Like, I don't know, like creating a whole PR campaign around there.
00;23;53;00 - 00;24;00;14
Pri
So it's like, is it a government? Is it a quasi government or private institution? I don't know, doesn't I like.
00;24;00;17 - 00;24;10;08
Chris
I go like 100 steps further and simply say capitalism, period. Full stop is a quasi private governmental institution.
00;24;10;11 - 00;24;18;27
Pri
Because of just like the amount they have to regulate private markets, that it's a kind of de facto ends up being in government like influence tends.
00;24;18;29 - 00;24;42;17
Chris
All right. The big myths of capitalism, these from like, the way libertarians want to see the world, is that capitalism is a free market that should be completely unfettered and allowed to act and like, have, a super sovereignty above, above governments. Right? And that's what everyone always is trying to drive capitalism towards. Give us free markets, give us free hands.
00;24;42;23 - 00;25;24;17
Chris
I think that is an absolute load of bullshit, and that capitalism and nation states developed in tandem alongside of each other and work together in a set of reinforcing goals, and that one can exist without the other. Like the modern nation state can't really exist without capitalism. You know, anytime capitalism needs to expand like, you know, build railroads for utilities, etc., etc. like it relies on the government to open the doors, fund the coffers, and in doing so, like furthers the interest of the nation itself, you know, creating a better opportunity, allowing room to grow, you know, giving people a living so they can make more babies so that those babies can be used as
00;25;24;17 - 00;25;33;17
Chris
cannon fodder in wars to expand the territory of the state. You know, I mean, that's that's a really grim version, but these things go lockstep, hand-in-hand with each other.
00;25;33;19 - 00;26;00;13
Pri
I agree, but I think I actually think it's like, maybe for libertarians, I, you know, I don't think that they feel like there should be complete separation or the two aren't interlinked in the way that you're describing it. Like, I would think it would be sort of a fantasy or fantastical to assume that, like, okay, yeah, you could actually have a true market, invisible hand type, not invisible hand type of thing.
00;26;00;13 - 00;26;28;11
Pri
Like I think that that is like a pipe dream sort of thing. Like I think most people realistically understand that the two are interlinked. It's more about like combining actions to create the most open and free market possible. So I think, like everyone agrees, that you want to aim for an open market, but you need to like at the edges, have some government regulation and reinforcement around it, not like necessarily have it such that one begets the other, which is what I feel like you're suggesting.
00;26;28;17 - 00;26;35;14
Pri
It's a small nuance, but like to me that kind of is more of like the libertarian view than in what you're saying.
00;26;35;16 - 00;26;41;02
Chris
I should probably not hate on libertarians because they're probably half our audience. I'm sorry, libertarians, but.
00;26;41;04 - 00;26;43;13
Pri
I don't even think that. Yeah, I know.
00;26;43;16 - 00;26;49;24
Chris
We have the cool side of crypto is what you're saying. Like we don't have the the libertarian wing is not listening to the pod.
00;26;49;26 - 00;27;09;12
Pri
I don't know, I mean, I think I feel like early crypto is like mostly libertarian. So I feel like, you know, you're going to find those the those people probably on the pod. But I just feel like it's like as someone who's like, I have a lot of affinity for libertarianism. Like, I don't think that they're like, delusional.
00;27;09;14 - 00;27;37;19
Chris
I don't think they're delusional. I do think that they're disingenuous when they speak in public, and that they really are like, I'm sure there is a good group of, like, pure ideological libertarians out there. And that wing, you know, is interesting, but it's similar in organism to me. Like, sure, it's great in theory, but, you know, once you start putting into practice, you run into all sorts of issues completely.
00;27;37;21 - 00;28;17;11
Chris
But then I believe, like, you know, in the in the world of crypto, in the world of like, you know, Accelerate America, that blend of libertarian, I think is completely disingenuous. And it's just an ideological masking for people who want to, socialize rich and privatized gains and that, you know, they never do. You never hear from your nuanced view on on libertarianism, you know, like Alonzo gif like shaking your head and nodding at the same time, where it's like a tough thing you have to accept is, oh, I can't do this right now because the actual gentleman environment is bad for it, right?
00;28;17;11 - 00;28;34;08
Chris
Like, I can't go off and rip and run and Max extract on people. I need to take a seat back. Right? Like you never hear a libertarian come out and go, you know what? Like what I actually want to get up to right now is probably a bad idea. And you're right, government to hold me back. You always hear the other side of that.
00;28;34;08 - 00;29;00;21
Pri
Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. That it I think I agree the approach and like the way that it's like actually shared is not it's not it is like this idea of privatizing and socializing risk though I would say like maybe if you're a true libertarian, I would think like, let's call it oh eight or something happened. Many of them, I would think if you're like a hardcore libertarian, they were just like, let they'd be like, well, these people were abusing the system.
00;29;00;21 - 00;29;09;09
Pri
And so like, the banks should be, they should fail. Despite what societal risk is at play there. Like, I would think that the hardcore libertarians would feel that way. I mean, even hard.
00;29;09;09 - 00;29;11;09
Chris
I think a lot of people felt that way.
00;29;11;11 - 00;29;11;26
Pri
Yeah, I.
00;29;11;26 - 00;29;32;00
Chris
Felt that way. I was really disappointed, a little pissed off, like, look, if you're going to if you're going to call this the rule, it's like an umpire, right? Like you, you just want consistent balls and strikes called. And if you're going to preach one thing and then you're going to completely destroy moral hazard when the chips are down and there's actually a chance to prove the point.
00;29;32;00 - 00;29;46;14
Chris
Right. That's that's just like a bit of a radicalizing experience. And so libertarians felt that I think the left felt it. I mean, honestly, God, like everyone to some degree felt it except for, you know, the teen bailout world police.
00;29;46;17 - 00;29;49;11
Pri
Yeah, completely Tarp the Tarp era.
00;29;49;18 - 00;30;02;01
Chris
I mean, that was like, I guess it was good that Obama showed, you know, show it showed his neo lib, state credentials early on. But, I mean, that was that was the end right there for, you know.
00;30;02;03 - 00;30;23;25
Pri
I think that actually, I think we talked about this, but I do think that in the Iraq war was like a radicalizing moment for many young people. And I think that was actually a moment of everyone talks about like, oh, there's no, you know, faith in institutions anymore. Like every institution, whether it be government or, you know, finance or whatever is, is, media, like everything has become so weakened.
00;30;23;25 - 00;30;48;01
Pri
And I think like that, like in Iraq especially, like you have the times talking about how it was a good idea, it was so it was like getting sold to the American public that in combination with what happened in a way, was just like, I feel like that those two big moments in that, like, whatever 8 to 10 year span just created basically the mess we're in today in many ways.
00;30;48;04 - 00;30;57;20
Chris
No, I'm with you. So I guess we're going we're going with the corruption of Colin Powell and The New York Times carrying water for Dick Cheney.
00;30;57;22 - 00;30;59;14
Pri
Yeah, I think that was a big.
00;30;59;16 - 00;31;05;01
Chris
It was like saying the quiet heart out loud in ways which could no longer be denied.
00;31;05;04 - 00;31;05;29
Pri
Yes.
00;31;06;01 - 00;31;27;21
Chris
You know that. I mean, on the one side. Right. You had someone like Colin Powell where we had this, I guess maybe vision of, like, incorruptible people who would serve as the last defense, a stopgap, right? Like maybe they can get to everyone else. But there's this one person who sits in a key position who you know what is going to put an end to all this madness through the courage.
00;31;27;21 - 00;32;09;13
Chris
I mean, that was a very strong American archetype. And, you know, when push came to shove, boom got the great lady's a different story. I mean, you know, like the New York Times has been, has championed their own causes, has taken sides for their entire history. You know, like the read The Power Broker. And when you get into Moses's relationships, you know, with the owners and the publishers, and you know, how he had carte blanche, like the times has always played this game, but they've been able to they're able to do it in a way where people weren't aware of it or, you know, like they were able to get away with it.
00;32;09;13 - 00;32;11;12
Chris
And the, the.
00;32;11;16 - 00;32;28;22
Pri
Have like the bifurcation of media. Like while the times of selling this, we also had new media platforms like the internet and social media and other things that were like sharing different world views, which I feel like maybe people, audiences like didn't have the alternatives, like, well, that was happening. Technology and media was changing.
00;32;28;25 - 00;32;41;29
Chris
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So no, I can see those is like especially for millennials, you know, very, very like radicalizing moments. You know, back back in time.
00;32;42;01 - 00;33;02;11
Pri
I wonder if Bitcoin would actually like even happen. I'm sure it would have been like, oh, it was such a catalyst for Bitcoin. Like I mean that was Bitcoin was a reaction to it. So yeah be interesting to even like where we are today and how we know each other and like this whole world that we live in online like is even a reaction to oh, if you think about that origin to.
00;33;02;14 - 00;33;13;14
Chris
We would never be doing the podcast if banks were not on the brink of another bailout, or what's the famous Satoshi headline he threw in the transaction folder?
00;33;13;17 - 00;33;15;12
Pri
What? It's iconic. What is the line?
00;33;15;19 - 00;33;18;17
Chris
Yeah, it's something like chancellors, banks, bail out.
00;33;18;19 - 00;33;36;00
Pri
Mind Bitcoin Genesis book embedding 16 years ago. Yeah. So this is like a post. But the times on it was like the times oh three Jan to nine Chancellor on the brink of second bailout for banks. Subtle reference to the financial crisis that inspired the birth of decentralized money.
00;33;36;04 - 00;33;41;05
Chris
There you go. It's it's meta semi lockers and corruptions all the way down.
00;33;41;05 - 00;33;47;12
Pri
Three I know you kind of need that, I guess, to have like, profound things as a reaction happen.
00;33;47;14 - 00;33;54;18
Chris
To Satoshi is laying breadcrumbs out in the dark forest that people are still only beginning to pick out today.
00;33;54;20 - 00;33;59;06
Pri
Then who's Hansel and Gretel, I guess in that in this, meta.
00;33;59;06 - 00;33;59;23
Chris
Is it.
00;33;59;26 - 00;34;00;12
Pri
Sorry?
00;34;00;13 - 00;34;10;28
Chris
Yeah. Is it Tom Lee? Is it Larry Fink, is it Joe Ponta? Is it, keto? I thought 1982. It's hard to say anymore.
00;34;11;00 - 00;34;18;10
Pri
And the. Which is just. Yeah, it's ironic. The wish is like probably the bank, but now the banks are crying. It's kind of funny.
00;34;18;12 - 00;34;21;29
Chris
Which on which violence the Commons cannot hold.
00;34;22;28 - 00;34;25;21
Chris
To coin or not to coin, that is the question.
00;34;25;24 - 00;34;27;28
Pri
That is the question always coin.
00;34;28;00 - 00;34;44;20
Chris
I was, I was bummed. It's it's starting to get too late. Summer. Like, do you get that feeling like around this point in time? Part of the reason I was at the water park yesterday was my wife was like, we promised son we would take him to water park. You have to step up and do this. But the other one floating around is the Public theater.
00;34;44;23 - 00;34;53;25
Chris
And Shakespeare in the Park, the, Delacorte that was remodeled. You ever been there? There's that. Like on. You're like, oh, my God, we should do this. And then we never do it. Summer lists.
00;34;53;27 - 00;34;58;26
Pri
Yeah, it is. I actually do want to go. What play are they doing there? Do you know like this year.
00;34;58;28 - 00;35;02;15
Chris
Yes I do and I can't remember it. So I'm not going to stamberg.
00;35;02;17 - 00;35;09;25
Pri
Okay. I actually went to the Queen's night market like because it's been on my like summer list and I went like a couple weeks ago.
00;35;09;27 - 00;35;12;04
Chris
What does you think of your time in Queens?
00;35;12;06 - 00;35;19;02
Pri
It was great. I loved it, it was really fun. I was actually thinking of you. I was like, I wonder if we'll see Chris up there. Here.
00;35;19;04 - 00;35;30;18
Chris
The vendors in like market. I'm not much of a shopper and I don't even discover like the, you know, exotic world of queens and, package up thing, but I heard it's a good time.
00;35;30;20 - 00;35;48;01
Pri
Yeah. I mean, for, like, us, there's just like, okay, like, I'm not eating like Kimora Indian food and, like, I like, like, some of the Uzbek food in Queens is great, but, like, we just, like, don't go that often. So it's kind of cool to, like, jump from, like, different like rit like, yeah, like random cuisines and kind of have, like a bite.
00;35;48;01 - 00;35;49;04
Pri
So it's cool.
00;35;49;11 - 00;35;58;16
Chris
Another big late summer thing is happening in Queens right now that I still have never gotten to. Every year or so I'm going to go to and I still don't go. And that's the U.S. open.
00;35;58;18 - 00;36;00;25
Pri
You've never been to the US open?
00;36;00;28 - 00;36;10;27
Chris
No. And a big part of it is because I'm always on vacation in a way for a week. And then you come back and you're right into the first week of school.
00;36;10;29 - 00;36;17;13
Pri
Dude. I mean, you could even go, like, today, like a half day, like it's I think right now people are just going for free. It's like kids playing.
00;36;17;16 - 00;36;31;17
Chris
I know, I know, like I have too busy a Friday from like this, this late in the in August. It's not like my Friday is very unfair. This is one of like five things on my calendar today, which is so, cool.
00;36;31;19 - 00;36;44;05
Pri
Them, you know, I don't even, like, go out. I don't even live in Queens or close, but, like, I feel like I've been in the U.S. open at least every year for the last couple years. I don't know if I'm gonna make it this year, but, yeah, that's, like, so close to you. Dude.
00;36;44;08 - 00;36;57;02
Chris
I know I was at city, last Saturday. I do imagine, like, it's it's right there. I mean, it would help with the, like, tennis. Yeah, that would probably go a long way towards fit. I still don't understand how tennis and scored.
00;36;57;04 - 00;37;12;04
Pri
I need someone like, every year explaining it to me when I'm there. And then I'm like, oh, right, that's how it works. But because I never pay attention to tennis outside of like, literally like going to 1 or 2 U.S. open games. But like, people are hardcore, like the people who want to go to like, the Grand Slams and all that.
00;37;12;04 - 00;37;15;00
Pri
It's like very die hard audience.
00;37;15;02 - 00;37;25;05
Chris
One thing I really love about tennis is the crowd dress is just like the players I know. It's one of the few sports where it's so confusing that way.
00;37;25;07 - 00;37;40;15
Pri
I kind of found it to be cringe though. It feels very like Instagram coded, like when I see like girls, like in all whites and like in tennis skirts and like, you're not playing like you. Like you can just wear, like, jeans and a t shirt. Like, I feel like you're doing this for your Instagram. It kind of annoys me.
00;37;40;17 - 00;37;52;26
Chris
But that's it's happened even before. Before all of that. Like I being a long time Queens resident. Like if you're on the seven late August, you can just instantly tell, oh, half of this crowd is going to the U.S. open.
00;37;53;00 - 00;38;13;23
Pri
That's true, that's true. There is like a look, I guess, but I feel like it's more like all all whites, like I know it for Wimbledon. It's definitely like all whites. And it was open. It's a little I mean, we're in New York. It's a little more casual. But now, like, you really see people go like they look like they're the they're about to go play.
00;38;13;23 - 00;38;22;20
Pri
It's it's very odd. I'm like, what's going on here? But I was actually talking to my boyfriend about this because he was just like, I feel like the U.S. open has become like this thing, like.
00;38;22;23 - 00;38;25;12
Chris
Your real boyfriend or your AI boyfriend.
00;38;25;15 - 00;38;46;09
Pri
Okay. My boyfriend. I'm just kidding. My real boyfriend. He was saying, like, we're on the subway, and he's like, all these ads, like every seamless ad. Every ad is like trying to appeal to the US open on the subway right now, which wasn't maybe the case five years ago. Like the tenant people are like completely tennis pilled. I think broadly, those sports have just become bigger.
00;38;46;09 - 00;39;01;21
Pri
Like, I don't know if it's because of sports gambling or what, but even like the WNBA has gotten bigger. Yeah. You're just seeing like more people engage in sports. I feel like over the last couple of years than historically, maybe it's yeah.
00;39;01;24 - 00;39;30;13
Chris
They're always talking about how viewership numbers are down. And so in a weird way, this this is like a paradox in of itself, where the value of sports lies in its live nature and the fact that it's unscripted. And so as like the the media ocean like floods and rises sports the singles of itself. Right. It's more able to easily step outside, but it's also losing market share at the same time.
00;39;30;16 - 00;39;53;20
Chris
Yet because I guess maybe it loses it at a lower rate than other things and it's more enduring. It really is like a great, great example of like this, the strange like asset inflation economy we live in, in which things become worth more even as they give you less. I don't know, maybe I went to too hard right there off the highway, but,
00;39;53;23 - 00;40;08;10
Pri
No, you're right. That's what I'm like. Is it just like sports people finally trying to, like they just hired, learn how to market and PR but, like, it's not necessarily an increase in viewership, it's just an increase in a digital footprint. Like, I don't even know it's real.
00;40;08;12 - 00;40;15;11
Chris
It's an increase in money supply and less places to put more, more cash.
00;40;15;17 - 00;40;17;19
Pri
Yeah. Right. Right.
00;40;17;21 - 00;40;39;01
Chris
But the product does get better. You know, it's interesting. I was never like a big college football guy. I'd throw college football on if there was like a huge game or there was nothing else going on. You know, because I grew up in the northeast where we don't play big time college football. The sport over the last couple of years, especially with these mega conferences, has gotten insanely interesting.
00;40;39;01 - 00;41;00;02
Chris
Like, you have these marquee matchups every single week and the quality of play league. It's interesting. You know, there's I mean, people have written reams and reams and reams about the end of amateur athletics and the hypocrisy, yada yada yada. But like the product on the field and the way they're packaging and serving it is better than the NFL right now.
00;41;00;10 - 00;41;08;07
Pri
Damn. Do you think a lot of it's like the NFL stuff, like has just created this boom around it or not? No. Has that affected the like?
00;41;08;10 - 00;41;31;06
Chris
Of course. I think you could go maybe a layer deeper and that it's a little more wild and it's like it's in a very dynamic period of change. Right. Which I think is creating more interesting things on the field in, in, in the pursuit of the title, where the NFL is, is way more boomer and buttoned up. And so like the range of possible outcomes is tighter.
00;41;31;08 - 00;41;34;11
Pri
So it's like banks versus crypto for politicians.
00;41;34;12 - 00;41;40;29
Chris
Yes. Yeah. Yeah I would say actually college football is in its crypto era or the other way around I don't know.
00;41;41;02 - 00;41;54;17
Pri
Yeah it's kind of funny. It's like figuring it out, breaking through a little bit more rowdy and then like, yeah, the banks or the banks if, if crypto is any indication, that means the banks will, that means like, the NFL will start coming into college football.
00;41;54;19 - 00;42;01;12
Chris
There you go. And, hey, can we talk, quantizer for a moment? We talked a little gen art or,
00;42;01;14 - 00;42;06;08
Pri
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on? What's on your mind, Hiram?
00;42;06;11 - 00;42;23;13
Chris
There. He dropped Finalizar Flamingo. Picked up five of them this week, I grabbed one. It's, good. It's really good. Like I'm getting a little scared for you because, like, this has been between that and, scripts pushing it. Code. I'm starting to feel for, like, have feelings for Gen hard again.
00;42;23;16 - 00;42;44;16
Pri
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the quiet is that quiet was good. And now it's it's it's. I actually kind of want one of the Harmon nervous ones I like. I need to get that one, but I, I agree, I, I do feel that the quality of the work feels a little bit higher. Is that just me or are we just kind of like, more psychologically open to it because the markets are back?
00;42;44;16 - 00;42;54;28
Pri
I don't know, but it does feel like the quality of work is a lot higher. Like this one is really good. And there's a couple other ones that I'm like, okay, this is very, quite interesting. Even on the I start.
00;42;55;01 - 00;43;20;08
Chris
Yeah. I don't know, like is it just because these two things happen to line up in quick succession and then, you know, pop for me because I'm not like I would say, you know, I'm your middle of the road bordering on sophisticated consumer of gen art. I'm certainly you're not. You are like catalog obsessive, full knowledge, the entire release slate, every artist history, etc., etc..
00;43;20;08 - 00;43;51;07
Chris
Right. Like, I know the catalog, but I miss a lot. And so it's hard for me to say, did these two things just happen to hit my radar and appealed to me. And, you know, like, is that too small a signal not to say anything much larger about the state of affairs? But for a while, yes, everything just felt a little machine stamped, a little formulaic and yeah, just even if the work was good, the way the factory it was, shipped out of old it to me.
00;43;51;07 - 00;44;13;21
Chris
And these two are certainly broken through. I think one, you know, like scribbles was finger code there. It was just bold and it popped and it showed, you know, it showed a sense of, like, style. And there it had schwag. So I Kaiser, I feel, is more, an act of mastery, you know, saying, okay, I'm going to make one algorithm and the algorithm is going to make 256 algorithms.
00;44;13;21 - 00;44;27;04
Chris
Every single work has its own algorithm, like, I can do this and I can do it at a level in which, you know, it's going to cut through the noise right? Like, to me, that's just someone coming, like with their full bag of tools and just hitting you it.
00;44;27;07 - 00;44;45;20
Pri
Yeah, yeah. And you could tell like that's like I'm kind of wondering if maybe just like the time and space artists have had to really, like, reflect on the medium and like, what they want to put out has created like but but yeah, that was masterful. I agree, and I think to your point, it was just like fun.
00;44;45;20 - 00;45;01;29
Pri
I feel like a lot of the color palette around, I don't know what it is, but I don't know if it's gen art or just just like the the color palette of, you know, whatever's in culture right now is kind of I just feel like it's like the same kind of larger color palette, like that one felt like a little bit more unique.
00;45;01;29 - 00;45;14;21
Pri
Poppy, like different, I don't know, I enjoyed that. I feel like we need more optimism and that I feel like both were optimistic, like color palette. I've also been the kind of crate digging again to.
00;45;14;24 - 00;45;16;10
Chris
Yeah, we're creative. You and I kind.
00;45;16;10 - 00;45;21;10
Pri
Of looked at the the of on a towel like brain drops drop and I'm like, this is actually really good.
00;45;21;13 - 00;45;24;27
Chris
Domino and Fluxus. Yeah it's a nice one. Yes.
00;45;25;00 - 00;45;39;27
Pri
And it's like not that expensive. I'm like, I should pick that up. I've been looking at some of the bright moments ones to oh, I still love the 100 sunset. The Zach Lieberman one. I kind of want one of his works, I don't know, like which is going to be the most accessible to me, but like, I definitely want.
00;45;39;28 - 00;46;02;15
Chris
Yeah, I have two from that are Abby curated drop in December light boxes. That one is called yeah, I'm off for trading one for you if you if you got anything and you need to complete your Zach set because, one is enough for me on that I. Zach's works are great and, you know, going back to like our our conversation there around finger coding why it was so appealing.
00;46;02;17 - 00;46;24;23
Chris
I thought the muted elements in light boxes, it just didn't hit me in the feels and especially like art blocks was very much in there. West Elm Pottery Barn for this period of time, which it was, you know, maybe seeing, you know, stood out in hindsight is a reason to close the 500. But just relative to what Zach can do.
00;46;25;00 - 00;46;37;26
Chris
Yeah, I like to see him kind of, turn it down a little bit and deliver something a little more muted and, decorative and reflective. I get it. Like I too would like, I don't know, some some different work from him.
00;46;37;28 - 00;47;04;10
Pri
Yeah. There's zero some really nice work of his actually. But his moving work is just like so good too. But anyways, I'm hoping there's more good art out there. I think that we should, it's fun to see the primary market kind of come back a little bit because I, like, missed that. Like just fresh off the mentor new work as opposed to just trying to which obviously the old classics are great, but it's nice to see like new phenomenal work coming.
00;47;04;18 - 00;47;24;16
Chris
Every artist out there shaking their head and saying, we've been delivering work, we've been delivering work. There's no drought. But that's the that's the tough side of this, right? Like we as consumers, we feel, I don't know, we feel these things. Oh, I'm not consumers. I'm sorry. I can't put it that way. We're collectors or appreciators, right?
00;47;24;16 - 00;47;36;28
Chris
Yes. These things have meaning. We're not Hansel and Gretel lost in the post-modern forest of nothingness and circular recursion. We are in joyous. We are celebrating, all of life's beauty, great and small.
00;47;37;00 - 00;47;38;06
Pri
Agreed. And we've woken.
00;47;38;06 - 00;47;39;28
Chris
Up parts off here. Are we?
00;47;40;00 - 00;47;43;02
Pri
We do, I do, I do, but I wasn't I didn't want to cut you all.
00;47;43;07 - 00;47;45;12
Chris
No no no. You want to intro and exit.
00;47;45;14 - 00;48;08;12
Pri
Yes. Welcome to net society today it's just me and Chris talking about internet culture, tech, art and more. Just a quick reminder these opinions of our own and not of our employer. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for, today or to two part episode isn't easy, Chris. We pulled it off.
00;48;08;16 - 00;48;13;05
Chris
Yeah, yeah. No, that was good stuff. Pat ourselves on the back and, go about our days.
00;48;13;05 - 00;48;18;03
Pri
Yeah, let's do it. Could we can. I will be on next week. I think. Actually, none of us will be.
00;48;18;05 - 00;48;22;23
Chris
Yeah. No show next week. It's, Labor Day, so we'll we'll free ourselves.
00;48;22;25 - 00;48;24;00
Pri
Okay. Cool. Bye.
00;48;24;04 - 00;48;29;24
Chris
All right. You.
00;48;29;27 - 00;48;40;07
Chris
Let's just say that so that society does.