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This episode is on Revelation chapters 4 and 5, focusing on the hymns of worship, the vision of God's throne, and the symbolism of the Lion and the Lamb. Who are the Lion and the Lamb and how do we balance the militaristic and sacrificial imagery of it all?
Creators & Guests
What is The Study Podcast?
The Study Podcast is an in-depth look at the Bible with Dr. Paul Wegner and Dr. Alex Stewart.
Tyler Sanders 0:00
You're listening to The Study Podcast with Dr Alex Stewart on Revelation. I'm your host. Tyler Sanders, I'm here with Dr Alex Stewart, our dean of faculty and professor of New Testament at Gateway Seminary. We're talking about Revelation this week. We're getting into chapters four and five, which are really important for reading the rest of Revelation. Kind of foundational and full of really rich imagery. Let's start off, Dr Stewart, by talking about the throne. So I think you said in your book that this is kind of like giving us a sense of God's authority. Could you unpack that a little bit?
Dr. Stewart 0:35
Yeah. Well, there's a lot happening when you get into chapter four. So chapter one was sort of the introduction of the book. This bit of epistolary introduction, introduction to the main characters. And then this initial vision of Jesus in chapter one, commissioning John to write to these seven churches. In chapters two and three is that writing. Then you get to chapter four, and John is still physically in Patmos. He's moved in the Spirit. So we're into this Divine Throne Room, into the heavenly realms. The Divine Throne Room, as we go through Revelation, is connected with the heavenly temple, the perfect temple, and they seem to be this one space. One physical space of temple with the very center being the throne room. And so it really is a vision of God ruling and reigning. And that's important in Revelation, because His rule is contested on Earth. So it's not acknowledged by everyone on Earth. It's contested by many. There's persecution. Those who are declaring their allegiance to the Messiah Jesus, through their worship, through their faith, through their obedience, are marginalized. Like they're on the outskirts. They have no access to political power. They're economically impoverished in many of these cities. And so they're celebrating, though, the king. They're following a king. But it doesn't seem to have very immediate physical benefits. So you could sort of wonder, who is in charge? Who really does have power? Is it the Emperor? Is it the gods of Rome? Or is it our God and His Messiah, Jesus? And so this vision that John sees is saying, who is the ultimate ruler of the universe, who is the ultimate King. And we get this vision here in chapter four, and then going to chapter five, introducing the lamb.
Tyler Sanders 2:14
It's interesting because, and you just kind of described a bit of it is like, the idea that this is a vision. I think this is going to be an interesting thread for us to follow as we talk through this. So in this vision, we do have some symbolism and some imagery, but also things that seem very real or they are more directly related to actual reality. Like God on the throne. Like, that is true. Like, that's not just metaphorically true.
Dr. Stewart 2:45
Well, it is interesting to think through...Revelation is filled with this, "And I saw and I saw and I saw and I heard and I heard and I heard." So it is this recounting of visionary experience. And it's interesting, Paul recounts in Corinthians about this guy, whether in the body or out of the body, caught up to the third heaven. It's interesting where John also really doesn't explore that here. So is he moved in the body or out of the body? Is it a vision, or is it actually a movement, a physical movement? He doesn't really describe that. He says, "come up here," in verse one here and, "I'll show you. And immediately I was in the spirit. And behold, the throne was lying in heaven." That's in verse two of chapter four. And so he's moving in the spirit. And looking back in Ezekiel, and sort of that movement in the spirit, would suggests a sort of visionary vision, visionary insight. But we could also have the agnosticism of Paul, whether in the body or out of the body. Who knows? So he's seeing things, and you could say, 'well, these things have symbolic meaning.' So a throne is a symbol of authority, of power and of rule. Other images we might talk about here, the Lion and the Lamb. So there is symbolism attached to that. And there's also though, the meaning of that is filled in from the Old Testament. So this throne of God, there are visions in Isaiah six, Ezekiel one through two, these significant throne room visions that prior prophets had. And there's some other ones throughout the Old Testament, these throne room visions. But Isaiah six is very, very important for John. Beginning of Ezekiel is [too]. And so there are these prior prophets who God granted visions of the throne, of the throne room. And so there in these visions, what they're seeing would be a literal throne. And so it's interesting, we don't have thrones so much nowadays in America. I guess we have important chairs people sit in, and we have chairs of committees and chairs of meetings. So we sort of whoever is sitting in the chair, is the one who's leading. So we have these sort of symbolic ramifications of a throne, a literal throne in antiquity, and how that plays out as leadership and being in charge or whatnot, of different things. So there is sort of ramifications of the original image. But [John] sees the throne and he reports on it. So there's some symbolic significance. And as far as in the vision, I think he is seeing it very literally as well.
Tyler Sanders 5:06
There's some interesting details in there. Like, some of the kind of materials he references. I know he sees the rainbow that seems like emerald over the throne. And maybe, I think he says the one on the throne is like a jasper.
Dr. Stewart 5:23
Oh the colors. You're talking about the stones and the colors. A lot of those are, I mean, they're communicating sort of the splendor, the wealth, the glory. It's just incredible visually. And it's connecting it to New Jerusalem as well. And so the throne room, and then a lot of the same stones shine like crystal, the emerald, and they go into all the different ones. It's connecting it forward to new creation as well. And so then the rainbow, some people connect it back to Noah, and Noah's day and covenant. But I think also Ezekiel's throne room vision, the rainbow is there, in Ezekiel one and two. And so I think that's more the connection. So it could be sort of trying to remind us of covenant and whatnot, but I think more immediately, it's the Ezekiel background for that. Going back to this idea of symbol. So John sees...well he hears, in chapter five, the lion, and then he sees a lamb. So it's like, there it is what he's seeing, a lamb. But Jesus isn't a lamb. So that's the kind of thing where, even what he's seeing in the vision, is intentionally communicating something. Jesus does not have the form of a lamb. In chapter one, he had the form of, sort of a human being. The Son of Man. And so it is interesting, these sort of visionary levels and the symbolism of what he saw and how that relates to the actual referent in the real world.
Tyler Sanders 6:42
It's very interesting. I think we can get more into that when we get to the Lion and the Lamb, but there's definitely some fascinating-there's like layers on layers of the symbolism with that. And the throne may be a bit simpler, but there's more detail in there too. I mean, because one of the things you say in the book is there's like concentric circles of other people around the throne.
Dr. Stewart 7:06
So you got the four living creatures, and they're connected with the cherubim. When you think of cherubim or Seraphim, in the Isaiah vision, and Ezekiel visions. And they're connected always with Divine Throne. So also, in second temple Jewish literature, some people describe them like a throne warden angels, something like that, but they're connected in Ezekiel, and even here, almost like structurally connected to the throne. Where they're carrying it. And John's language for it is a little tricky. Let's see, in verse six, "in the midst of the throne and around the throne" are these four living beings. And so it is sort of ambiguous, even the way he's describing what he's seeing in the vision. But then you go out from there, and you have the elders, the 24 elders. And then you have these concentric circles of angels, sort of surrounding it. And there it's modeled after, whether it's the Roman imperial court or other sort of Imperial courts of kings. The idea of the king being the center. And then these circles of the suppliants or the royal court. What we might think of as divine council here. Heavenly council surrounding the Divine Throne. And so it's still, in some ways, it's not imitating Rome and Roman imperial rule, but it's showing the true reality that Rome is the imitation of, as it were. Rome is the counterfeit. And here's the true heavenly core. The source of real authority in the universe.
Tyler Sanders 8:26
And I think when you get to the creatures, especially, there's something very interesting going on there too. Because there's all these kind of people or beings, like all around the throne of God. But what are they doing? They're worshiping. And they're singing these hymns, and they're inviting, it's kind of an invitation to worship, I would say.
Dr. Stewart 8:46
Yeah, so I think in John's recollection, it's not just to let us know the content of what heavenly beings are saying, to inform the intellectually curious. There's very little in Revelation that's just trying to inform the intellectually curious. It really is sort of this insight, this perception, this vision of what is happening, when things are ordered correctly. So in heaven, things are as they ought to be. Proper worship is being directed towards the Creator of the whole world. The One who created us, the One who sustains us, our true ruler and King. And He's the recipient of genuine worship, and it's unceasing, and it's just exalted. It's more intense than any sort of, again, counterfeit worship directed towards the Roman emperors or the local deities or Roman goddess Roma. All these pale imitations, false worship. And we're seeing now the real worship directed towards the real King, and it's an invitation for us, not just to know that that's happening, but to join in. So as we hear, we vicariously live John's vision, through reading it or hearing it read, we're implicitly invited to identify with those who are rightfully worshiping the world's rightful King and to enter into that same type of worship. Our allegiance expressed through our worship. And we're aligning ourselves with the world's rightful Ruler. And so it is, I think Revelation, all these hymns, these sections of hymns, are inviting us into that space into the world.
Tyler Sanders 10:15
Yeah, it's interesting. You say that too, because that's kind of the content of one of the hymns. The second one is that it's, God is...
Dr. Stewart 10:22
The "holy, holy, holy"?
Tyler Sanders 10:23
Well, that He created everything. And so it's not only that it's rightly ordered, but that it's good. Like, when it's functioning correctly, there's a recognition that it's been created good.
Dr. Stewart 10:35
Well, that's the ground for it, I mean, so God's authority, it is grounded and He's Creator. And that's important in Revelation, because the one who created in the very beginning has the power and the authority and the ability to recreate. To fix it. And that's some of the narrative of Revelation we see of a decreation followed by a recreation. And so here in chapter four, at the end of it, this celebration of God as the one who created all things is not just looking to the past. It is that, and it's grounding, this is why He is the true ruler of the universe. He's the Creator. But it's also sowing the seeds of hope for the future.
Tyler Sanders 11:09
I think it's interesting. There's kind of two stacking things here too, right? There's like a recreation to what is good-and it would definitely be related in a lot of ways, I think-but there's also justice in there too. And like the destruction of of evil. I guess they'd be related, because evil would be something that wasn't part of created order, or the good kind of created order.
Dr. Stewart 11:32
I think so, yeah. I think that the themes of justice and righteousness and judicial action are major themes in Revelation. They don't come out so much in chapter four. So these hymns here, that's not really the focus in terms of justice, but that comes through all throughout. Particularly the seven bowl judgments in chapter 16. That's a major theme. But again, all throughout, from the fifth seal, calling out for justice, souls under the altar. Chapter 11 gets to what you're saying where it's celebrating God's rule, and it says the time has come for destroying the ones who are destroying the earth. It's this idea of justice, of setting things right in God's creation. So all of this expectation for future, complete, holistic justice that enables humans to flourish, exists as it were, as we are created for. All that is sort of set in contrast with the reality in the present. We're in the present, and we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit, but the dragon is at work in the world trying to destroy God's people, harm those who are bearing witness to Jesus. The Dragon has enlisted the beast, and they are deceiving and misleading and ruling. There almost seems to be global acclamation. Who's like the beast? Who could wage war against it? With blasphemous claims and blasphemous names, drawing the worship and allegiance of humanity away from God. And so this idea that justice is not, we're not seeing it everywhere in the world right now. The world is actually really broken. And so this expectation throughout Revelation is that God would fully, finally and completely establish justice, in a way that we, even with our best efforts, we're not able to attain in the present age.
Tyler Sanders 13:10
So we hit like the second hymn there. Let's talk about that first one. You said it briefly there. It's like something that we hear in our worship songs all the time. "Holy, holy, holy,"
Dr. Stewart 13:21
Yeah, "Lord God Almighty, the One who was and the One who is, and the One that's coming." Well, that's drawn, of course, from Isaiah six as well. And so this is the same type of Throne angels, in Isaiah six, worshiping in the same way. John's getting a similar vision. And these four living creatures in Revelation are sort of a mix of Ezekiel and Isaiah. The details. They're associated with those spiritual beings, are sort of blended in this vision that John's seeing, and details are drawn from both. But the expression, the holiness of God. The repetition, I think, is giving emphasis to it. Lord God, the Almighty. The holiness of God is interesting because we say it all the time, and we speak about His complete otherness or set apartness, that God's holiness is actually quite terrifying. And so for any of us to even think about that is terrifying because we're not holy. And so the holiness is, elsewhere in Scripture, likened to this consuming fire. Like it will...it's too. It's too holy for us to approach it. And that's why it's always linked or here it's linked in chapter five with "Worthy is the Lamb". And so it's the lamb's worthiness that we participate in, we share in, that then allow us to approach God and approach his throne without fear. And so without the lamb and without Him being worthy, because we're not, then all we have is terror in light of God's holiness, but the lamb then, in our identification with Him, washing our robes, as it were-and the language of Revelation, "in the blood of the Lamb"-then we have that confidence to approach a holy God without fear. So this is a celebration of that, similar to what Isaiah saw, and then what John's seeing here. The other thing, you said, you mentioned how this in Revelation's visions and hymns have shaped Christian worship. And they really have, in so many ways. And the content of the hymns we sing, the songs we write, in many ways, we're drawing inspiration lyrically from Revelation. We have been for 2000 years now. And I think that's as it ought to be. And so there's powerful worship songs that are drawn very directly from the hymns of Revelation.
Dr. Stewart 13:22
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's a couple of reasons. I mean, theologically, it certainly makes sense that Revelation is kind of looking forward in some ways, and is, like we've been talking about in this podcast, that it's a big part of the reason for this book is to help Christians endure and to last. And to stay true to the course. And that shouldn't be surprising, I think that that's kind of something we sing together. But it's also just so, so rich in just imagery.
Dr. Stewart 15:56
Even when you say that, the worship is what enables us, part of what enables us to persevere. There's so many things happening in worship, in terms of reorienting our souls and our priorities, our thoughts towards what's ultimately important, what's ultimately valuable towards truth. So worship, when it's happening properly, is the reorientation of our soul on this regular basis as we go through life. This refocusing, and in many ways, we're experiencing just small...as we worship with God's people, it's in some ways anticipatory, in Revelation. So we're experiencing some of the new creation right now. We talk about sometimes, we haven't talked so much here, but inaugurated eschatology. We're tasting already some of the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. And we're bringing those into the present as we worship. So these small communities, counter cultural communities, marginalized, oppressed, no political power, this kind of stuff. But they're celebrating the rule and reign of God even when it's rejected by many and opposed by many in the present time. But we're experiencing it now. We're celebrating His rule and His reign now. And in that little bit of those moments, we're actually living into new creation as it were. We're experiencing it in part. And so that's exciting, and how worship shapes us through that. In some ways, tasting the new creation even in the present time.
Tyler Sanders 17:18
It's one of those things that, at least for me, I forget that a lot. When I'm at church, worshiping together with the body of Christ, the same way I forget what holiness really means. The weight of that can sometimes escape me, and that's such a good reminder, to get this.
Dr. Stewart 17:38
Yeah. The worship should never be rote or trite or boring. And one of the themes is fairly basic. I'm trying to teach my children, and this is, I think my mother taught me when I was quite young. The key to worship is meaning what you say. And so when you're singing the songs, if you're just going through the words and you're thinking about something else, well that's not worship. So worship, meaning what you say. Saying what you mean. And then the words of a song will guide us into saying things that are good and are right, and will reorient us towards the world's rightful Ruler. But then to mean it. To thoughtfully reflect on it as we're saying it, and make it our prayer. Make it express what we want to express to God.
Tyler Sanders 18:17
Well, let's get into the Lion and the Lamb.
Dr. Stewart 18:20
Yeah. So chapter five.
Tyler Sanders 18:21
Now, I gotta tell you, something that I had not thought or noticed until I read it in your book, was John saying he hears some things and he sees some things. I think I've just collapsed that into like this is just all part of the experience, and he's just kind of switching up language in a way. You point out that there's some difference in that.
Dr. Stewart 18:43
Yeah, he never sees a lion. So he heard, "Come I'll show you the lion, the tribe of Judah, the Root of Jesse." And then he says he sees, "and I saw, in the midst of the throne, the four limb creatures. In the midst of the elders, a lamb", in verse six. And so I draw attention to it there. But I try to, in my book, draw attention to, this happens quite a bit in Revelation. A number of places where what he hears is different from what he sees. And it's sort of opposite. And then they interpret each other. Another example, in chapter 21 verse nine and 10, where the elder's saying, "come, I'll show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." So he takes him up on the high mountain. He sees the city, Jerusalem. So he hears it's a bride, and then he sees a city. So it's a similar dynamic, where what he hears and what he sees mutually interprets each other. And I mean, there's a number of other places. We'll come to it again with chapter seven, because this happens there. And it's disputed. He hears 144,000, he never sees 144,000. He hears it; 12,000 from these tribes. This is what he hears. And then he says, in verse nine, "and I saw", and it was the uncountable multitude before the throne. And there it's contradictory. Again, we'll get to this in some future ones, maybe we won't go down that trail here. But this is like a hearing, seeing, literary device in some ways. That he hears something and he sees something completely opposite, but what he heard and what he sees, they're mutually interpreting each other.
Tyler Sanders 20:04
It's so fascinating. I love that because, I was an English major, and so here's a 10 cent English major word; juxtaposition. But it demonstrates that opposite nature of these two things. He's kind of experiencing these two things, but they're interpreting each other and like, they're giving you a much more full kind of picture of what's happening. That is super interesting here, because again, from a lot of worship songs and everything else, we're very familiar with this Lion and the Lamb imagery of Jesus, but the way he constructs this is just stunning.
Dr. Stewart 20:45
It's interesting too, because sometimes we think, 'well, the lion is the military', sort of the victorious, messianic, militaristic figure who's going to conquer. And then lamb is sort of the vulnerable, passive victim of slaughter. But here the lamb has seven horns. And there is some second temple Jewish literature visions, where there's this sort of Messianic ram, as it were, lamb with horns. And it's not weak and vulnerable, it's actually quite powerful as well. So some interpreters would argue that way. Others try to subsume the lion into the lamb. So sort of the lion, or the divine violence side of judgment gets swallowed up. And so the only violence that they want to see in Revelation is violence that the lamb sort of absorbs. And so that's more of a nonviolent reading or pacifist reading in Revelation, who are trying in every way they can to escape visions of divine violence. And so that's one way. And I think that's the wrong path here. I don't think that the two images are....one should not be allowed to swallow up the other.
Tyler Sanders 21:45
It's not collapsing into each other.
Dr. Stewart 21:46
Yeah, the lion is not disappearing. It's the lion, the tribe of Judah. And so I think we want to hold them both in this creative, interpretive tension in Revelation, instead of just trying to subvert or put one under the other.
Tyler Sanders 22:00
Well, and part of what makes this so rich, symbolically, or in terms of symbolism, kind of like we were saying with the throne, there is kind of a broad interpretation that probably anyone in the world would understand. the meaning of a lion and in the meaning of a lamb. We can track the meaning of Lion, like you said, the Lion of Judah. We got a sacrificial system with the lamb. There's like, old images of the lion and lamb that come through on this. But then even past that, we get this other layer of symbolism where these two things that don't seem that they should fit together are giving us a better picture of who Jesus is. Which would be really hard, like...you couldn't draw that. It's a perfect symbol for something that's written down or spoken. But it does something that's kind of impossible, but it tells us something true.
Dr. Stewart 22:54
Yeah, I like what you said there initially, about the symbols themselves, Lion and lamb. People could easily draw lots of implications from that and assumptions. The content, or the specific meaning here, is really shaped by the Old Testament. So you think the lion of the tribe of Judah, brings it back to Genesis 49. Where Jacob is prophesying over his sons. And he talks with Judah and associates it with this lion. So that gives that lion imagery connected to Judah. Connecting us all the way back to that promise and that prophecy back in the Old Testament. And so there's this line of continuity then, running all the way from the Old Testament and that prophecy, through the Old Testament history, through Jewish history, through the time between the Testaments, up to the first century here. And so it's filling this conduitive line with much more specific meaning. And similar with the lamb. As you mentioned, the sacrificial system. People debate, interpreters debate what exactly. What part of the sacrificial system is in mind here? The Passover lamb, or some other type of sacrifice. And I tend to think it's left general, perhaps on purpose. So it's not specified, but it is bringing to mind that whole system, the sacrificial system. And particularly, I think Passover is unique and set apart from that, the original Passover event, but then incorporated into it. And so I think it's bringing all that to mind as we're thinking about this lamb that's been slain now. But is living.
Tyler Sanders 24:20
And that's another fascinating part of it, right? You get that He's slain, but that He's alive. That's another kind of thing that's like, those things seem like they shouldn't fit together, but that's true when we think in terms of Christ.
Dr. Stewart 24:37
Yes, definitely. I mean, it's a Christian vision. So it's about Jesus. Then it goes back even to chapter one, where Jesus talks about not being afraid. He has the keys of death and of Hades. And he was dead, but is living. And so this is still incorporating that, but now in a visionary way.
Tyler Sanders 24:55
And now one of the other interesting things in this is, John weeps. Kind of in the narrative sense, right? Like, we have the scroll and no one can open it. And he starts weeping, and one of the elders says, 'it's okay, the lion can open this.' But then the lamb is the one who actually takes the scroll and starts opening it. So that's such a cool thread to follow. It's a bit subtle, but it's also pretty direct. That like this is the same, like the lion, the lamb.
Dr. Stewart 25:28
It's interesting because again, that someone would push this path and say, the scroll representing God's plans, His purpose, as it were, to establish His kingdom. To judge evil, to remove evil from His world and establish His rule and His reign. So this scroll is sort of this plan of God to accomplish His purposes. And then the lion, as it were, don't weep, the lion has overcome. And so if you go interpreting more militaristically, saying, 'Well, that was the expectation, that God would accomplish His purposes that way.' And then when you see, though, the Lamb, 'Well, God actually accomplishes His purposes on a different path.' So it wasn't exclusively through this sort of violent judgment of adversaries and military defeat of the foes of Israel, but it's through a lamb. It's through receiving the penalty of sin, in this Christian reading of it. Which is confirmed, I think, throughout Revelation. The blood of the Lamb, and what the blood of the lamb accomplishes. And that's how God is now enacting and accomplishing His purposes and His plans. So it doesn't mean that there won't be judgment of evil, but that by itself is not the solution. The solution is the lamb that is sacrificed, that absorbs the wrath of God on itself and is now a path of salvation where people can wash their robes and make them clean for access to new Jerusalem, through the lamb. But again, that doesn't mean there won't be judgment, but it's the accomplishment of God's purposes through the lamb.
Tyler Sanders 26:53
So those readings would be a little bit more...they kind of see these still as oppositional. Snd that like whenever the lamb gets folded into it, or whatever, it's kind of like a rejection of the old idea of violence. Is that kind of the idea?
Dr. Stewart 27:06
Yeah, it would be. And that's sort of a pacifist reading, or nonviolent reading of Revelation. The lamb is receiving all of God's wrath. So that sort of no human has to. So whether that goes in a Universalist direction or not...?
Tyler Sanders 27:21
Yeah, it's a fascinating read. Because it seems a bit more clear to me that these two are connected, and that it's not like one dominating the other or kind of subsuming.
Dr. Stewart 27:33
Well, the other visions in Revelation clarify it too. So God does judge evil in Revelation. And I've read several monographs along those lines as nonviolent readings, and they're not convincing to me at all. And God's judgment is uncomfortable. And it's meant to be difficult and uncomfortable, but we can't get around it.
Tyler Sanders 27:54
Yeah, yeah. Now we do get one more hymn in this chapter. Is that right?
Dr. Stewart 27:58
Yes, so the significance here, well...the first hymn is to Jesus. And then it's worshiping Jesus alongside God. It closes in verse 13, "the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb, blessing and honor." And that's significant when we think of christologically or even trinitarianly, that the lamb is being worshiped. No other created beings are worshiped, share God's worship. And the lamb does that in a way that sets it sort of ontologically or qualitatively apart from any other being in the world, or in creation, in the universe. And so that's unique. But they're not collapsed into each other. And I think we chatted about this maybe a couple episodes ago. They don't lose their own identity in each other, but they're also connected in a way that cannot be true-is not true of anything else in the universe. And that leads to later Christian reflection on the Trinity. So this first hymn, though, in verse nine, they sing a new song, saying, "Worthy are you," to take the scroll as it were, "to open it's seals, because you were slain. You purchased for God, with your blood, from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you've made them for our God, a kingdom and priests, and they'll reign on the earth." And that language of kingdom and priests, I think we talked about this in chapter one, but it's the illusion back to Exodus. And that God's plan and purpose for His people to make them a royal priesthood, a holy nation, as it were. And so this is being fulfilled now in the lamb. And so I think that's an important allusion back to Exodus 19:6.
Tyler Sanders 29:29
There's like a good sense of a restoration, again, like the same thing we've been referencing earlier, but like this restoration to the created order. Humanity is going to be, what it is supposed to be.
Dr. Stewart 29:43
Yes, the idea of, he was slain and purchased for God by his blood, is this restoration back to what we were created for.
Tyler Sanders 29:51
Yeah. And I think, not to just like jump straight to our conclusion, but I do think this is kind of a good spot to hit this, kind of combine all these things, like we have the sense of authority and kind of restoration, and that is all found in Christ, who's represented by the Lion and the Lamb in this, right?
Dr. Stewart 30:09
Yes. And so the lamb receives that scroll to accomplish God's purposes. All His promises, through all of history to His people. He's revealed Himself through prophets over centuries. And now it's culminating in Christ as the one who's the lamb, the one who's able to put this into practice, who could bring this to completion, to finalization.
Tyler Sanders 30:29
It just fits in so well with that bigger theme you've brought out, in general, for the Book of Revelation, of endurance. Stick with it. Don't give up. One of the things that's encouraging is...to help people to do that, is like the victory is already won. Like the authority is already established, in a way.
Dr. Stewart 30:51
Yeah, in our worship, we're acknowledging that, we're proclaiming that, we're celebrating that, and it's reaffirming it, even as we celebrate it with other Christians. Others who call on God's name and approach God's throne through Christ. We're calling on Him together, and we're celebrating that-sort of a future fact, almost-but we're celebrating in the present. So it's the mix of hope and of faith and of the presence and the Spirit of God affirming that, as Christians gather and worship. It's bringing it all together, and that's what enables us to overcome. Is this encouragement by God's Spirit in corporate worship, that reminds us of who we are, and who He is, and our relationship with Him. So that's a key part of what enables us, day by day, week by week, to gain the victory or to overcome in life.
Tyler Sanders 30:55
And I think this also is a good kind of foundation as we go forward and read the rest of Revelation. You've mentioned something like that in your book that like, we're going to see some stuff that's pretty...could be frightening and kind of dark as we continue to read. But we can go back to this-or everything we're reading, we're reading in the context of this. Of the throne.
Dr. Stewart 31:57
Yeah, so from here till Revelation 16, end of 16, John doesn't change location. He doesn't move again in the spirit until the beginning of chapter 17. So all these visions that he sees from here on out, are unfolding sort of from this vantage point. From the throne, sort of looking down and seeing these things unfold on Earth. So that's important. And these visions are foundational a couple other ways. Again, they're setting that baseline. This is the reality in the universe. God is on His throne. And all the chaos that unfolds in the visions; the judgment, the opposition of the dragon and the beasts to God's people that we'll see unfold, it's all sort of under the authority of this. That it's that reminder that history is not spinning out of control. It's not outside of God's sight and His guidance. No matter how difficult it is, we're able to trust that God is on His throne. No matter how much our lives seem to be falling apart or our worlds are falling apart, we could draw assurance and cling-even if it's just by...however we're able to cling, to a hair's breath-God's on the throne. We cling to that in our darkest days, and that will sustain us through those days. So that's a way it sort of lays this foundation for all the future visions. But another detail is the lightning, the thunder that are around the throne. Lets see what verse it is here real quick. Oh, verse five, that's what I'm looking for. "Out of the throne was flashes lightning and the sounds of the thunders and the seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne." But this lightning and the sounds, as it were, and the thunders, they occur at the end of each of these sequences of seven moving forward. So seven seals and seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. So each sequence of seven judgments repeat this phrase about the sound, the thunder, the lightning that's coming out. And so it's linking all of these, lengthy sequences of judgments are all linked intertextually now, back to the throne, and back to this initial vision. And so they're not...it's a subtle, sort of intertextual reminder of how this throne room vision is connected forward to all these other visions that are going to be unfolding.
Tyler Sanders 31:57
I think that's really helpful, because just as I've been rereading Revelation, kind of in context of recording this podcast, I'm remembering reading it much younger, and struggling a little bit to connect all of it. It's like, you kind of get this image, this really strong imagery, and that's kind of what would stick in my head. And I wouldn't necessarily think of it all being tied back together, or that was a little bit of maybe a step too far for me at that point.
Dr. Stewart 34:34
That's one of the wonderful things about scripture in general, but Revelation in particular. The more you read it, the more you become familiar with it, you'll see more and more of these intertextual connections.
Tyler Sanders 34:46
It's really good. I think that's going to help us as we keep moving forward. So next week, we're going to get into chapters...let's see. We just did chapters four and five, so we'll be getting in chapters six and seven.
Dr. Stewart 34:57
And the beginning of eight. So we'll do the whole, I assume we'll do the whole seven seal sequences.
Tyler Sanders 35:03
Oh, yeah. That makes sense.
Dr. Stewart 35:05
There's a digression in chapter seven, but yeah.
Tyler Sanders 35:08
Okay, well, then that's the homework. We all need to read Revelation 6 through 8. It's perfect.
Dr. Stewart 35:13
See you next week.
Tyler Sanders 35:14
Thanks so much.