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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take your real questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This episode contains mature themes and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Tammy Brown:You guys, today's questions though.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Are you ready for this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. I am.
Tammy Brown:We are going to talk about the church handling someone pregnant out of wedlock. We're gonna talk about porn and dating and homosexuality. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Here we go.
Tammy Brown:I'm just gonna I'm right with you guys. I'm gonna be like, how do you answer these, pastor Matt?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Very carefully.
Tammy Brown:First question comes from Sierra in Clovis, California to our central Californian friend there. Yep. I am currently seven months pregnant and have felt have really felt God pushing me to service in my church and to join the leadership team. When I reached out and asked to serve, I was very caught off guard being told no. I'm curious what makes my sin different from all other sin to the point that I'm not qualified to serve in the church?
Tammy Brown:And why do women get asked to step down when they sin and become pregnant out of wedlock?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Sierra, so I'm gonna assume you don't go to Sandals. So thank you for listening from whatever church that you go to. And obviously, I I can't speak to the leadership of your church, the theology of your church, or the experience of your church. What I think is important here is not to be critical of the church, but just to understand leaders are thrust into a position where they have to make decisions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by definition, every decision a leader makes is controversial, and here's why. We wouldn't ask them to make decisions if we had consensus. And so this is just something that we have to understand. Good leaders have to be willing to disappoint people. Otherwise, they're not a leader.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Young Matt Brown, this is what I struggled with the most. I wanted to be liked by everybody, and so I had a hard time providing clarity for people on issues like this. So let me unpack your sentence, sincere. I don't know if you meant to write it this way, but here's how it came out. You said there's two things here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I really felt God calling me to service, so I'm gonna put pause there, in my church, that's great, and to join a leadership team. So I don't know if they said you're disqualified for leadership team Mhmm. Or for service here. So what I would say at Sandals Church here is I would say, man, that's great. I I I'm glad that you're hearing from God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want you to take seriously serving him and attending. And I would invite you to serve in all kinds of ways. Where I would put the comma is, in order to serve on a leadership team and a leadership role, there's just a different set of standards for Christian leaders. And I think Christians really, really struggle with this. Who's the guy from Hillsong that we follow that fell out of New York City?
Tammy Brown:Karl Lentz.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Karl Lentz. And so, you know, I I have two I have two thoughts on Karl, not that he would ever hear this, but one, love you, praying for you, appreciate so many of the things that Hillsong did that were beautiful, and I I truly believe that the devil ruined that because God was doing great things through Hillsong Church. But I think there's restoration for Carl as a member of the body of Christ, and that's one thing. And then there's restoration to leadership, that's another thing. And I think sometimes as Christians, we think the two are the same things, which is why we get such bad leaders.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I had this conversation with a person in our church who's really, really struggling because, you know, a lot of our young people in our church, or not young people, just people in general, jump in and out of bed with each other, get pregnant out of wedlock, do this. And he's like, why is there grace for them, but you have this standard for me? And I said, because you're called to leadership. And if you're called to leadership, you just gotta get over that God's not calling you to live like everybody else, be like everybody else. You're called to follow Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's what James says, those who lead and teach will receive a stricter judgment.
Tammy Brown:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:there's the verse, Sierra, specifically from the half brother of Jesus, James, who says, if you wanna be a leader, you know and and just remember, there are specific qualifications for pastors, for leaders, for deacons in the church, and for people who serve, what I would say, in a visual capacity. So in other words, you're on stage, people are watching you, being led in worship by you, led in prayer by you, and no one is perfect. No one. Not me, not Tammy, no one on our team. But if I'm in active sin, then then then I I I can't lead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, if if it got found out that I impregnated somebody else besides Tammy, I would immediately step down, and there would be a restoration process hopefully for our marriage and hopefully for me to the church. But I would say I'm disqualified to lead this church, and I would not put our church in this, and this is what a lot of pastors do. They because they're talented and gifted, they put their churches in extraordinarily difficult situations, and they say, I wanna be restored back to a position of leadership. And what I would say, anytime I've had the experience where the person's goal is to be restored back to leadership, I really question the repentance. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Or the motive. The motive. Like, look, if your goal is to get back on stage, I I I don't think your goal is repentance. And so so, Sierra, you know, I don't know you. I I can't judge you, but what I would do is I'd go back to your church and clarify and say, am I disqualified from serving in any way?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's why
Tammy Brown:I And potentially even where like, if if the call is to serve is, like, where do you guys feel like it would be best for me to serve in this season?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So she was really caught off guard by being told no. I I would have been caught off guard by that as well. So what makes my sin different from all the other sin? Nothing, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, all sin is bad. Now I would tell you this, not all sin is the same. A lot of Christians say that. Like, for example, it's it's different me being angry with somebody and me killing somebody. If you think those two things are the same thing, you are not a logical, reasonable person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And one of the things that we gotta learn about God is God is logical and reasonable, and so we we have to we have to remember that. He he's an intelligent being. And so Jesus says this to Pilate, those who brought me here are guilty of the greater sin. So Pilate crucified him, but Jesus says it was the Jewish leadership that brought me here. Their sin is actually greater, and that's really, really hard for us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:John says this, that we should not pray for those whose sin leads unto death. Unfortunately, he did not tell us what that sin was. That would have been helpful. And it's caused a lot of pain and suffering over two thousand years as church leaders have tried to guess. So not all sin is the same.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What you're saying is, why do women get asked to step down when they sin? I I I can't speak for your church. Mhmm. I do think that the church has a history of punishing the evidence of sin rather than the people involved in sin. And this goes right back to John chapter eight where the woman who's caught in the act of adultery is brought before the council.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, it says she was caught in the act, so to be having sex, how many people do you need?
Tammy Brown:Two.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Two. There needs to be at least two persons involved in that. Where's the dude? Mhmm. And so as a church, we gotta be very, very careful that we don't just deal with women in this way, but where's this guy?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Who is this guy? What's going on? The first thing I would tell you, Sierra, is is I would just thank you for keeping the kid. And I would just really really, as a church, try to come around you. Look.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want you, just like God wants you, to have sex with a husband who loves you, who cares for you, who's all in for you. That's the desire of sex. Sex is the physical, spiritual, and emotional oneness of two people, and I believe clearly by the Bible states that that is reserved for marriage. So Tammy and I don't have sex with anybody else. We don't involve anybody else in our sex life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That is just something for us because we are married. And so my prayer for you is that's something that you would reserve for your future husband. So I I would just really encourage you and and appreciate you in a culture where women discard unwanted pregnancies. I I would really celebrate you, not that you sinned, but that you didn't sin a second time by taking the life of an unwanted child. And so I think that's really, really important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then what I would do is I'd get you in a mentorship relationship with some woman in the church, and we would try to assess whether or not you're ready to serve and and what that looks like.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's what I would challenge you on. If God has led you to this church, part of being led to a church is learning to submit to leadership, and no leadership is perfect. And submission is only submission when we don't agree. That that's the only time it's it's submission. Tammy and I, I think only two times in our marriage, we married thirty years, I've asked you to submit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it was both times is when we did not agree. One time, I remember though, it's when you had changed your mind about something we had agreed on. And I was like, wait. Wait. Wait.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was like, we we involve God in this, and we can't undo what we felt like God called us to do. But it was a it was a tough situation. And and I don't I don't take that lightly. I know, I think anybody that's run around saying you need to submit is is is a bad person. So what I would do is have grace and just go to the Lord and say, Lord, have you led me to this church?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and if he has, you need to stay, and you need to figure it out. And and just let the church know, hey, this is how I felt. In the same way though that you felt condemned, don't go condemning them. It's very, very popular nowadays to slam the church online, to make fun of them. Look.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You can have an imperfect church and a church leadership that makes mistakes and still love them. You know, I Tammy and I are going through a situation like this where I made a mistake about a year and a half ago with one of our friends at church. I've asked for forgiveness. The relationship's over. I made a mistake.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and so, look, we're compelled by Christ when someone makes a mistake, they ask for forgiveness to forgive. And and that's really, really important, and that's essential for church health because no pastor is gonna be mistake free. No pastor. We all make mistakes. We're human.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would say you need to have grace for them in the same way that you want grace. The tendency is they didn't give me grace, therefore I'll judge them. Then you've become just like them. So so don't do that. So I'm really, really sorry that this is your experience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would go in humbly with understanding and with grace. And ultimately, the way God's gonna bless your life, unless this is a cult, I don't know, is to stay in a healthy church, know they're gonna make mistakes, and try try to live out your experience there, and find a woman there to mentor you, and then ask this question, what do I need to do to serve? But let's divide service and leadership, because those are those are, you know, somebody greeting greeting people at the church, that's not a leadership role. Somebody teaching kids, that's a that's a higher level low role, but it might not be leadership. Somebody teaching a bible study, somebody when we send people forward for prayer, people are coming forward for confession and spiritual guidance.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a huge position at our church, and we wanna make sure as best we can that those people are healthy and sound doctrinally. So I'll be praying for you, Sierra, and I'm so sorry. Thank you for this question.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Good question. Our next question comes from Phil in Brawley, California. You mentioned your gay friends, Tom and Ed, and that God loves them. If you are gay and saved, can you go to heaven, or are you not saved if you are gay and haven't turned away from the sin of homosexuality?
Tammy Brown:Asking for
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a friend. Yeah. Yeah. Phil, man, this is this is a really, really great question. I love Tom and Ed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I actually miss them deeply. Great friends moved to Arizona. Like, so many other Californians fled our state. So if you are gay and saved, can you go to heaven? Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what Paul says in first Corinthians, a specific passage, is those who continue to have sex with each other as men. So that that's what Paul's saying. So the so the issue is having sex. The issue is not the desire. The issue is not the attraction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The issue is the action. So for example, I'm a heterosexual. I can follow Jesus as a heterosexual according to his teaching, or I can sin as a heterosexual according to his teaching. The same thing is for a homosexual. A person who is same sex attracted can submit to God, follow his teachings, and live out a life in accordance with God with with what God's word teaches, and that's actually what Paul says.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Paul says some of you used to be actively gay, and now you're not. I mean, he literally says that in the passage to the Corinthians. So the issue is the sexual act. For God, this is something that is very, very important. If I ever get to it, I wanna write a book called Sex Drive, and it's called I don't know that that'll be the title, but that's the working title, and it's basically divine instructions for a world driven by sex.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because sex is important to God because it is the element that he has given us that makes us like him. What do I mean like that? When you and I have sex, God has granted us the ability. He's given me semen, you eggs. When those two fluids come together, they make life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:K? It's, you know, I don't know why we don't call that magic because that's amazing. It's it's absolutely amazing. And God has entrusted people with that ability. And we need to, as Christians, be stewards of that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so in the Bible, it's very, very clear. We are not to have sex with angels, Genesis chapter six. You wanna know why the world got flooded? Sons of God found daughters of women, attractive, had sex with them. That's a no no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't do that. That is
Tammy Brown:so crazy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sodom and Gomorrah. What is that? All the men of the city wanted to have sex with angels. You don't do that. You don't have sex with animals.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't have sex as a man with a man. You don't have sex as a woman with a woman. God has made it for men and women to come together in that manner. Now I get it. We have different attractions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have different desires, but all of us must submit to the teaching of Christ. And so if you are gay and saved, can you go to heaven? Yeah. Of course. Are you born again?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so when you're born again, your sexuality has to submit to your spirituality. So the gay community today, right, what's the most important thing? LGBTQ plus my sexuality, my trans identity, my fluidity, right? So that's the most important thing in my life. As Christians, what has to happen, whether I'm gay, I'm straight, I'm bi, I'm trans, I'm fluid, whatever I am, it has to go like this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It has to submit to Christ. So you cannot confess Jesus Christ as Lord if you say, my sexuality is over my spirituality, then he's not Lord. You're Lord. And if you're Lord, you're condemned. So what you have to do is say, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. No. My sexuality is gonna submit to his lordship. It doesn't mean we live it out perfectly, you know, I don't want you to think, oh, I messed up, I looked at gay porn, or I I had an encounter, I messed up, look, there's grace. But but here's the thing, Phil, when I gave my life to Christ, I realized my my my sexuality, and I'm not gay, but my my heterosexual had to change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It had to submit to Jesus. And and here's the thing is Tammy and I celebrated thirty years, what, two weeks ago. Mhmm. I've been faithful to her for thirty years by God's grace and the Lord's help. So, you know, that that was not how I dated.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not how I lived, but it had to change because Jesus was Lord, not my sexual desires. And I think it's important that we that we realize that. And so I've been faithful to Tammy because I love her, but also because I love God. Mhmm. And and those two things are are are are important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So haven't turned away from the sin of homosexuality. And so, yeah, we gotta be careful with that word because woke churches, left churches, they love to use that word and then say the Bible doesn't speak against the identity, and they're correct. It speaks against the action. And so what I would say is for for churches that say, well, the Bible never addresses homosexuality. Therefore, two loving, consenting partners are okay with God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There are nine specific instances in the Bible that deal with same sex sex. They're all negative. None of them are positive. To say that people of the ancient world are unfamiliar with or unaware of committed, monogamous same sex relationships is ridiculous. People back then are just like people today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There were some gay people that were interested in monogamous relationships. That's that's just that's just how it is. But in every instance, the action is still bad. If you're interested in following Christ, just know in the Bible, there's no examples of same sex ever listed in a positive way for any any reason in the Bible, and people that are telling you that's okay are are twisting something. And so, again, if you're gay, we love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're welcome and wanted at Sandals Church, just like heterosexuals are, but you gotta know we're all called to a different standard. We're called the Bible says, do not be conformed to the image of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds. So whatever the world says doesn't matter. We have to go with what the Bible says and what the Bible teaches. And I think on this issue, it's pretty consistent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank
Tammy Brown:you. Thank you for that. Okay. Final question of the day. I feel like this question could be its whole own episode, but let's go for it.
Tammy Brown:We're gonna do this in two parts. Okay? You ready for us? Yep. This comes from Roy right here in Riverside, California.
Tammy Brown:Hello, pastor Matt. I'm a young male struggling with pornography. A thought always runs through my mind that if only I had a spouse, I could be satisfied by her and in a godly way and have a reason to stop. K? That's part one of the question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, okay. I'm gonna
Tammy Brown:go on to part two, and then we can take this in chunks. Okay?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Tammy Brown:However, the counsel I have received says I should be clean before even getting a girlfriend. My question is, should I wait till I'm clean to pursue a relationship? If yes, how long should I aim to be clean before being ready to start a relationship? If not, when should I bring it up to her? So that I don't deceive her but also don't scare her away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's
Tammy Brown:a big question here. First one, I'm a young man struggling with pornography. Thought always runs through my mind that if I had a spouse, could be satisfied by her and have a reason to stop. Do you want to confirm that or debunk that as truth?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I I I just think that you you cannot conflate in any way pornography and sexual intimacy in marriage. They, you know, it's just it's just not the same thing. It's one is an addiction, the other is intimacy, and they're just separate things. I think that, you know, young men, particularly some young women, I guess some older people too, you know, have this issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it it's destructive because intimacy is the ability to connect with someone who's actually there. When you're engaging in pornography and you're masturbating, right, you are having to intentionally go somewhere else and you're not present. Because if you are present, you have to admit it's not real. You're looking at pixels on a screen that are manipulating your mind. It's just not real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the act of intimacy is actually very difficult. The other reason I'm I'm not a big fan of pornography is it demonstrates, you know, things that I think normal healthy adults don't wanna do. I think it leads to perversion. Pornography tends to degrade. So what initially attracts you, you know, satisfies you is not enough at some point, and eventually you just keep degrading into something else, something more foreign, something more perverse, and then before you know it, you're so far away from a healthy, normative, sexual life, and so it paints a picture that's just not true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It will put expectations, desires, frequency issues, you know, most of what pornography in, right, is is male oriented sexuality. And it's, you know, if you're a husband, you wanna be married to a woman, you need to orient orientate yourself to female oriented sexuality. And, you know, what you're watching is fake and not true. And if you want sex like that, gotta have to hire a director. So I I'm just absolutely against it for all kinds of reasons.
Tammy Brown:What do you think about the idea that or the thought that or the belief that they have that if they did have a spouse, they wouldn't have a pornography problem.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I think it's a lie because pornography is addictive. I mean, you know, that's that's like saying if I got married, my my cigarette or my my zen addiction would would go away, you know, or my my alcohol addiction would go away. An addiction is an addiction. This is something that you're trying to control, but you can't seem to control.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's an addictive pattern that needs to be broken. And so what I would do is I would go to church, talk to a pastor. I would join our men's sexual freedom group on Tuesday nights. And so how long before you should date? I would say as long as possible because it takes it takes time to rewire your mind, and I get that part of men wanting to date, right, is is a desire for sex, and I I think some of that's healthy, but if that's the primary reason for which, you know, that that's not the primary reason a woman wants to be with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's gonna be part of it, but that's not gonna be all of it, and that will lead to a very dysfunctional relationship very quickly where she feels used. And that's why, again, I just wanna encourage you to not look at porn, because both parties, both the man and the woman involved in that or whatever that you're viewing, they're all being used for the financial benefit of someone that's selling it online. That's not what God intended for sex. And so learning to deal with your anxiety, your insecurity, your need for intimacy in healthy ways is really, really important. And I would say at a minimum six months, go to men's sexual healing, get in a confession group.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would say there needs to be some period of time that you work through with your sponsor where you are porn free, where you're masturbate masturbation free before you enter into relationship with a woman. Because it's a lot for her to handle. And even if she's like, I'm okay with it, she doesn't understand it. She just doesn't understand what she's signing up for. She has a different drive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's she's a different person. And so you need other men to come alongside you and say, okay, I think you're ready or you're not ready. But you need to know for yourself that you can control it, so that that you that you can as a Christian man because, you know, in marriage, there's gonna be periods of time where where where there isn't sex. That's just that's a normal part of a healthy relationship. You know, sex is a small part, but it's not everything, you know, that that it the way that pornography makes it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What what would you say to this? Well know. I didn't tell you.
Tammy Brown:Throw me right there. I think something that you've said a lot in counseling our kids and people in our life is the value of having your own sex drive that you've disciplined it instead of it mastering you before relationship, before marriage is so important for that very reason is that it is a lie to things like, oh, I'll get that right when or if. Yeah. But just like you if you can't control it when you're not with someone, you won't be able to control it when you are with somebody because it can become an escape. I think some of the things that I would be curious about since you're asking me is how did pornography start in your life?
Tammy Brown:Are you using it to cope with stress, pain, something you want to avoid? That's something you and I have counseled a lot of people with is sometimes the the issue is not even pornography.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:It's the escape. So is there something in your life you're wanting to escape? Is it a really, really bad coping mechanism or strategy that you've developed over time? These are some questions I would have, which none of that has to do with sex or a partner or intimacy. It all has to do with self soothing, pursuing pleasure over pain or stress.
Tammy Brown:So those are some of the questions that I think you really might want to consider, Roy, is like, what is the root in some counseling that we've received? It talks about different types of struggles and sins being fruits on a tree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And you can you could stop have you know, stop looking at pornography, stop having sex outside of marriage, stop whatever the sin is. But what is at the root of it Mhmm. That even grew that fruit in your life? And so I think I think that you could stop looking at it and that whatever issue is the driver for it would still be there. And so trying to get to the whatever's driving it would be there.
Tammy Brown:I think that I haven't met a person in a relationship where porn is an issue on either side by the male or the man or the woman, where even after marriage, it it isn't really, really messy and complicated and doesn't still impact. So I think the lie that you might be believing, Roy, is that if I had a girlfriend or a wife, this wouldn't be an issue. It still will be an issue because you've developed mental patterns, physical patterns that involved no one else, and then you're gonna bring someone else in that doesn't play the role to the same way, and that's gonna be really problematic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, sex sex, masturbation, pornography is all about self, and sexual intimacy and marriage is all about a couple. And so that that that's why, you know, it's it's just completely a a different thing. You need to learn to love her, please her, care for her Mhmm. So that she wants to love you, please you, care for you. And that's this dance that you have to learn together to meet each other's needs and to care for each other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what pornography does is it just completely robs you of the process of seeing each other, connecting with each other, you know, reading one another, you know, because pornography assumes, right, everybody's ready to go all the time. And that's just that's just not true. And so
Tammy Brown:And I I think it's just something, you know, you've said all the time, like, I think each of us in our pursuit of discipleship of becoming more like Christ has to master anything
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That is ruling over us. And in the same way, could say, like, well, if you would just be better, I wouldn't be so angry all the time. Yeah. If you would just what you know, like, if I just this, I would be happy. I I think all of those are just lies that we believe.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. And this clearly is an issue that I think you need to dig a little deeper in to understand what's going on with you, what's happening in your world where you're more tempted. Bring a trusted person, counselor, group, like you said, into your life to go, like, this is something on my own Mhmm. That I'm really struggling with. I think that the enemy does his best work, no pun intended here, but in the dark.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Meaning that the lie is that if I tell someone, they're gonna think I'm disgusting or gross or not want to have relationship with me anymore. And that's exactly where the devil wants to keep each of us in our sins so that we can never untangle it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And this is something that clearly you cannot untangle on your own, and you're gonna need, first of all, grace, understanding, a safe place to be real of like, hey, I've noticed that when a, b, or c is happening in my world, that is my go to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:What so what do we deal with there? I placed a person to call and be like, I'm so tempted right now, but I don't want this to rule me. And so I think community is so important there. We've just learned that most time, the addiction to whatever pornography included typically has so little to do with actual pornography.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. So I think that's my take on it. I do think it's something you really need to dial in before you bring a partner into the mix. Yeah. I don't know that I know a time limit because Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That's why that's why yeah. It needs to be somebody. That's a really but I do agree that have not having someone in your life is not the reason that you you struggle with this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Pornography runs a lot of marriages, man.
Tammy Brown:And having someone will not make this go away for you. And I want you to be freed from it. I think it's one of the enemy's greatest tools in in life for men. Not just for men, but for men in particular in this world. I think a lot of women are addicted to pornography.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:It can show up differently, look differently, and it's kind of the un alked about thing. Men get a bad rap of being, like, more about them. But I do think it's it's the place in the dark where the enemy keeps so many people in so much shame and torment. And I think you need to really get help and work that out before you move into this next season of life with a partner that can be free and not shame filled and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Celeste Contreras:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. So let me say, Roy, we love you. God's grace is there for you. The vision of Sandals Church is to be real with this. If you wanna heal, you gotta get real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You gotta learn to to look somebody in the face and say, hey. Here's what's going on. Here's what I did. You don't have to tell everybody everything, but you gotta tell somebody everything. And that's just really, really important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would encourage you to press in the community, press into discipleship
Tammy Brown:Safe community.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Safe safe community. Yeah. Don't tell everybody everything. And let me just tell you this as an older man. This struggle, if if you stay disciplined, because there are men my age and older that still are sex addicts and struggle with porn.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't wanna I don't want to say that it magically goes away. But if you stay disciplined and you work at this, here's the truth. As you age, your sexual desire is diminished, and I actually think that's a good thing. I I actually really appreciate who I am as a 54 year old man that I don't have I don't feel like lust is at the forefront like it was when I was 24, and I have more perspective on life. Even like my love for Tammy, I still think she's beautiful and amazing, but what would but what would have been early on, all attraction is now equaled by appreciation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I would say when I was younger, I didn't appreciate her. Having daughters really helped me with that, And then having great female friends at our church that you learn to relate to in a non sexual way. And that's what's so gross about porn is it turns every woman into a sexual vessel, and it's it's just gross. And then you're not loving, you know, your church members like your sisters in Christ the way that you're supposed to. So I would just say we love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you so much that you trust us with this question. Hopefully, you don't feel beat up, but you feel set free. And, you know, we're all on a journey, but but get a mentor. Get a mentor. I can't emphasize enough.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Get in sexual freedom on Tuesday nights at Hunter Park. It's so important.
Tammy Brown:Well, that's it for today's episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm I'm exhausted. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Thank you guys so much for listening, for trusting us with your very real questions. I mean, these questions can be messy and vulnerable and embarrassing, but this is the place to ask them. So thank you for trusting us us with those. As always, you can help support us having a place to answer these tough questions by going to sandalschurch.com backslash support to help do that. Also, if one of these questions today reminds you of someone that you know walking through a similar situation and could just this conversation would add value to where they're at in their pursuit of following Jesus, please share this episode.
Tammy Brown:And until our next set of super complicated questions, we'll see you guys later.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.