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Welcome to the official podcast of Living Streams Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Our mission is to display God’s glory, build courageous people, and engage in society’s pain. We believe these messages, sermons, and special episodes will help you grow in that journey. To learn more about Living Streams Church, visit livingstreams.org, and follow us on social media @livingstreamschurch.
All right.
Welcome to the Living Streams
Church podcast.
We are here.
Well, I guess I'm here at the church.
Anthony's in New York.
Brandon. Brandon's in Idaho.
We're all spread out, but,
I'm here in the dead of heat
in the Phoenix, Arizona desert.
But having a good time this summer
because of the topic, I've really been
enjoying the topic of this podcast
and our sermon series.
Being Human.
And really, what we're trying to do
is get ourselves rooted in a biblical
anthropology, really figuring out
what the Bible teaches.
It means to be human
so that we can promote
human flourishing,
in this new age that we're entering
into the artificial intelligence
or just the intelligence age.
I mean, whether it's artificial
or not, it's still intelligence.
And we want to make sure that
we can promote human flourishing,
whether there becomes some disorienting,
or even some deception
that comes our way in this age.
But also,
we're living in a political area
with an era
where there's a lot of dehumanization,
and we want to be able to stand against
that as well.
And,
and also see how maybe the internet or
the artificial intelligence is influencing
politics and those type of things.
So we want to be wise to all of that
as well.
And, yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
And, I want to introduce the humans
of the Being Human podcast today.
You know, Anthony, Anthony,
how are you doing?
Doing well.
Yeah, well, I was in New York.
It's getting getting
warm, not phoenix hot,
but it's it's muggy.
It's, It's a.
Yeah.
Are you are you experiencing any of
the FIFA World Cup craze over there?
Not much. We are.
I was actually I was down in DC
when we were on break for the podcast and,
they have a whole, like,
FIFA zone set up.
And there was like,
I don't know, hundreds, to maybe, maybe
1000 people or so watching the games.
And so it felt cool
to kind of feel the energy as well.
So yeah. And it's starting to get good.
And there's not an in Boston, there's not
an actual like there's no games there.
It's the New York New Jersey.
Right. Is that I think so
New York, new Jersey.
Yeah. Yeah that's cool.
But still people are so into it
and it's fun to just see
the mobs of different
like the Netherlands or, or from Norway,
you know,
they're rowing the row in their boats
up the escalators, you know, different
things like that, which is so funny.
I actually saw
the Mexico fans were all rowing there.
They pretended like
they were on their boats down something.
So it's it's been a lot of fun.
And then also we have Brandon Gurney,
who's a long time
friend of mine and and also,
someone I think it'll be really fun
to hear from today about this space.
So, Brandon, how are you doing?
You know, I'm doing great, David.
I'm, enjoying a cool morning here
in Boise, Idaho,
which is, strange for me, having spent
ten years, with you guys in Phoenix.
But, you know, I'm
taking advantage of the opportunity
to bust out the, the fleece.
And,
I see a 90 coming up in the forecast, so,
Yeah, just enjoy this
as long as I possibly can.
And, we're not feeling the, the as much
of the World Cup, hype here up in Idaho.
Yeah, it's, it's America 250 for sure.
Is the, the name of the game up here?
And, you know, I've been to
my third rodeo as of, as of this week.
Let's go to zero prior to this.
And this one is, he's obsessed
with all things horses and cows
and all that fun stuff.
So we are in the right place,
for this season of life with him.
Yeah.
On that note, Anthony,
I know you've been working on some, 250
celebration stuff for America.
Tell everybody
just a little bit about that real quick.
Yeah. No, I'm, It's weird.
I feel like I've given my background now
fully on, on record, but as a marketer,
this is really cool.
I've had a chance to work
with kind of the events team
who's putting on some of the events that
are happening at the, the national level.
And so the big one, of course, this week
is the fourth, that that's coming up.
So there's like a big fireworks
show in Washington, DC that's supposedly
like ten x the volume of fireworks
that have ever been.
Oh, yeah.
Last at the same time,
I love five times that are happening.
So involved with that
and a few other things between now
and the end of the year.
But but yeah, feeling
the 250th, as well, and kind of a kind of
a special summer between FIFA, between
the two 50th and everything else going on.
Yeah, it's a big, big deal for America
this year. And.
Yeah.
And freedom 250 is, is the thing
you've been working on
with, with the Trump team or the kind of
you know, Trump Association or whatever,
the white House task force?
Yeah, the white House task force. Yeah.
So it's kind of interesting
you've been in and interacting
with a lot of interesting,
you know, business
leaders too, because of that,
which is pretty fun.
Yeah.
And and so the other thing
that that's podcast is really trying to do
is it's trying to
it's trying to meet as many people,
as as we can or as,
as the Lord, you know, brings together
at that intersection of work
and tech and faith.
And, you know,
we all have our own little stories of,
of how we as men
have developed a work life or career life.
And, and tech
has always been a part of that.
But at this point, tech is really kind of
and it's creating a lot of uncertainty
in in a lot of fields, you know,
including all the ones that we're in.
But also creating a lot of opportunity,
in all of these fields.
And so we're wanting to just kind of like,
do what we can to get
whatever wisdom for our work life
as we continue down this path.
And I know, Anthony always talks about
the billion knowledge workers out there
who are either, you know, already
crashed at this intersection
or they're they're speeding towards it.
Or maybe they're just interested in it,
but we want to meet people there
and then the tech side of things,
which is so fascinating today,
every week
there's something almost mind blowing that
that is happening,
whether we are aware of it or not.
Like we're getting
the little bits and pieces, but the people
who are at the forefront of these,
these, learning machines and,
and these algorithms and,
and the technology are just making
groundbreaking like, earth shattering
stuff to where even like
we talked about last last podcast,
the government is like, hey,
you're not allowed to release that because
that's basically just a big old weapon
waiting to happen.
And we're just still here in our innocent
little bubbles going like, oh, cool.
Yeah, this is fun.
Hey, chat, tell me this.
You know,
but so the tech thing is something
we definitely are interested
and then and in faith, obviously.
And, and I love the
the thing that happened with you, Anthony.
You're like my work life, my tech life.
All of this was really kind of stirring
up, ramping up.
So I went to started going to seminary.
It was just like, hey, I just need
I need some help.
You know, I need some philosophy for this,
I need some, I need some,
like understanding.
I need something that's rooted way
beyond, you know, just a human capacity
or this modern era.
And, and, so I think that's, that's
what's fun is like,
we're kind of trying
to bring those three worlds together.
And I was I said this on in the sermon
on Sunday, but I was at, another church.
They asked me to come by on a panel.
And I ended up being the only one
on the panel, which was like, okay,
panel of one.
And they were interviewing me
and the whole topic
was all about politics and power
and kind of how Christianity interacts
with all of those things.
And maybe forms
are thinking on those things.
But at the very end, you know, at
completely out of nowhere, he said, well,
could you also just tell us anything
like the Lord speaking to you about AI?
And it was just so funny because
it's like, doesn't matter the topic.
You know, it's like there has to be.
Also, hey, could you tell us about
how AI is affecting this or what
are your thoughts on it?
Because it's just so interesting.
And I spent last week
I was in Belize, Central America,
and literally
in a village of about 350 people.
And I lived there.
I've been there many times.
Brandon actually spent a summer there
one time as an intern.
And I mean, there's
just not much going on.
Like it's
it's it's got very little industry.
I mean, no industry.
I mean, they,
they have running water most of the time.
They have power most of the time.
But but it's so remote and and off
you know, off the beaten path yet
they got Wi-Fi.
They all have cell phones somehow.
I mean, there's like very little money
in the village,
but all the kid,
everybody's got a cell phone. And.
And then I was talking
with one of the pastor, the pastor there,
and he was saying I was like, what?
What about churches?
Is anybody using that type of stuff
or like
and he's like,
oh, you got to be kidding me.
The kids don't even do homework anymore.
They're all just on getting their order.
So I was just I mean, it was just like,
you've got to be kidding me.
Right here in this village in the middle
of nowhere, like the kids are on to it,
you know, like they're already saying,
hey, this thing could do work for me. Bam!
This is awesome.
And and the teachers are saying,
this is not so awesome, you know,
so there's kind of even,
like a generational crash,
which there's always between teachers
and students.
There'll always be a difference
of opinions, I think.
But again, just how this how pervasive
how how, important this topic is.
It just it's coming up everywhere.
So, yeah.
Anthony, you're kind of our, our go to
on the cutting edge of all of this stuff.
So, I know that this week
you were doing some other things
and maybe not trying to pay attention
so much, but anything come up this week or
whatever on the tech side of things,
that's interesting.
Yeah.
You know, we'll do our segment
called what the Heck tech.
We need a beautiful
like video bumper there or something.
Right.
Theme song or jingle. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
You know what came up this week?
I think this was news from a few weeks
prior, but,
Pat Gelsinger, who,
I think some folks might know
he's a former CEO of Intel and VMware.
But beyond that, a outspoken Christian,
a philanthropist, a believer,
who has, done so much for,
certainly the faith community,
in the Bay area.
And I think we can kind of talk
more about that.
He released an article,
that kind of revealed that a,
a sort of meeting happened at and,
anthropic, which is one of the big
kind of foundational labs,
who was building
kind of the
the core kind of, frontier kind of I,
that brought together
Christian leaders or faith leaders
across different traditions.
I believe even some,
like secular ethicists, were brought in.
And this was intentional from the team
at anthropic to kind of create
a discussion around
how these tools are being created, how
they're being formed to use the language
that, that Pat used in the article.
And so he, he, put this together,
and used a lot of language
in talking about
how clod is actually developed,
like words like covenant formation.
A lot of like
theological concepts into how
this series
of code effectively that's being built.
Yeah.
How the decisions are being,
kind of guided.
And so I sent this over to David to,
to get your read.
And I know you had a chance
to, to review it.
I was curious from,
from the pastoral kind of context,
what do you make of the formation of AI
and what that means for our own formation
as humans?
Yeah, I, I actually,
at the conclusion of the article,
one of the questions that
that they posed was if,
if I character is being formed
so literally this, this,
this intelligence, you know,
that's supposed to serve humanity
and promote human flourishing if,
if that,
if that technology is being formed,
then then you know how important it is
that for Christians
to be at the forefront of that and helping
helping create this tool in a way
that's going to form humanity
more into the likeness and image
of Christ, you know, than than less.
And I think that's a great question, but
but then also like,
he's saying basically,
if you're going to try and form it
and it's going to it's
going to be influential,
you know, on our kids, on ourselves,
on everything we do,
how important it is for us to be engaged.
I mean, totally.
And, and again,
I there's I don't think I don't know
if there's tons of answers here.
I think what they were trying to do in
this article was to help
people think not all of these
I, you know, scientists
or developers or engineers are evil,
horrible people trying to ruin humanity.
But instead, you know, see them as people
that that we should love and care for
and reach out to and and see
if we can have a seat at the table.
Not not to be the
loudest voice or controlling at all,
but basically, you know, I love what
Bonhoeffer always said, that the church
should be the conscience of the state.
And and I think the church has a role
in, in all kinds of fascinating
or all kinds of, facets of society to be,
a conscience of some sort,
you know, to just be a voice
that is saying, hey, there's
probably a better way, or hey, what if we
what if we took the little bit harder
path, maybe, so that, you know,
it doesn't cause damage to our kids,
or so it doesn't create
the kind of hostility
that a lot of the social media stuff has.
Like,
what can we do to to stand against those?
So yeah, I just I thought it's, it's cool
that and guessing I think is a good name
for us to, to put out on this podcast
where if you're interested in,
how these things together,
this guy is probably one of the,
the leaders,
in this intersection of work,
tech and faith, he's ahead of the game,
I think for most people.
And so far,
it seems like what he's doing and,
what they're what they're promoting
seems to be really wonderful stuff. So.
So yeah.
And they actually come up
with three things that, basically said,
if you're a pastor, you need to be talking
about this in your sermons.
If you lead a ministry, find one
Christian thinker
working on AI
and read their work this week.
And I think when he says,
if you lead a ministry, you might think,
oh, like official capacity,
but this is if you lead a home group,
if you have a family,
like if you have friends, you know, if you
if you, are doing any kind of ministry
at all and which is all Christians.
Yeah, you should probably find someone
that that can be a bit of a luminary
for you in this path, and hopefully
this podcast can do some of that.
But, there's better people than us too.
So we'll try to keep introducing you
to them as well.
And then the last thing was, if you're
a thoughtful Christian, the third one,
he said, just sit with these questions
for for an hour and just kind of pray.
And I loved what, when,
when I was out that fix a church.
The what the pastor asked at the end was,
he said,
he said, you know,
do you have any insight or wisdom for,
for the, for the church
or for how we can navigate the AI age?
But he used the word prophecy and he said,
do you have any prophetic insight?
And again, depending on your tradition,
you can feel a lot of different
feelings about that word.
But I, I
know that God speaks to his people and,
and there are a lot of times
in, in, you know, biblical
the biblical story within church history
where there were very disorienting
or very extremely challenging things,
and the people of God would rely
on that reality of a prophet
or someone who could speak something
that maybe didn't totally fit the the,
the reality of what was going on.
It wasn't a conclusion that everyone
would come to on their own, but there was
something spoken from outside,
which is the Bible as a whole.
But but something spoken for that moment.
And so I loved,
I mean, the, the pastor Micah that fix it.
I just thought it was cool that he was
saying, hey, not just hey,
tell us what you've learned,
but also, is there something
that you've heard from, from from God
or from from, you know, revelation
that that could be helpful in this?
And I think it'd be good for Christians
to all do that
a bit, say, okay, Lord,
what are you saying?
And maybe the Lord's just saying,
don't worry, I got you.
And, and like some of the sermons
that we've been,
we've been preaching,
but maybe there's something else too.
Or maybe the Lord has a calling for you.
Like, Anthony, you've slowly
kind of stumbled into saying, hey,
maybe this isn't just something that like,
I'm going through, but
maybe the Lord's taking me through this
so that I could offer something to others
who might be going through this as well.
So yeah, I think it was a
it was good article.
Good, good, good works
going on over there.
We can put we can put the article and,
and in the, in the link
to the YouTube or whatever,
if you want to check that out.
We got to get the chore,
the chore app in there, too, we promise.
Oh, that's right, I will do that.
You'll see
all the compliance or noncompliance
my children have had on their chores.
And doing that,
you're going to expose your children?
Yeah. It's it's accountability. Right?
It's community driven accountability.
All right, so
now I want to introduce Brandon Gurney
a little bit more,
and we get to hear from him some, this
this is Brandon.
He's he's again he's a friend of mine.
I met him at Living Streams
Church and Phoenix
when he was gone
to Grand Canyon University.
He actually was an intern here
for a while, and,
lived him, lived in my house
for a month or so or something like that.
He's got the same birthday
as one of my daughters.
That's right.
And, Yeah, Brandon's a really good guy,
and and he's he is not
just interested in this. He is.
He is a thoughtful Christian.
But he's also working in a field
that really touches on
a number of these things.
So he's he's he's a thoughtful Christian.
He's got a very he's interested
in this type of stuff and always has been.
But he's also in a, you know, in a job
that that touches on these things.
So why don't you
why don't you tell everybody
a little bit about, about those things,
a little bit about you.
And then, and then the work that you're
doing and how, you know, it's kind of
even even pushed you further
into this, this in action.
Certainly. I'd be happy to.
I mean, as you said, David, you know,
I was deeply involved
with living streams for a number of years.
And, had the opportunity
while I was, on the team there
to really kind of dig in early
before the pandemic
on this concept of kind of digital
or hybrid ministry.
And, that was one of the things
that you tasked me with, I think, in
2018, 2019 was kind of sussing out, okay,
what is, ministry look like
in an increasingly digital world?
At the time,
talking about an online campus
for living streams and trying to reach,
you know, the thousand or so folks that
were streaming our services on a weekend
with something more meaningful
than just content, but ultimately
trying to engage them with community
in some in some form or facet.
And, so I spent about a year,
trying to figure that dynamic out.
And then the pandemic happened,
and every single church in America
was thrown into the same question of
how do we engage with people
in an increasingly digital first reality?
And many, many twists
and turns over the early pandemic years,
as I'm sure many of our listeners
probably have stories where it's like,
okay, in my life and then Covid, right.
And I had
a little bit of one
of those moments, as you know,
where I was planning on spending some time
in, in the developing world, in Ecuador
in 2020 and 2021
that ultimately ended up
turning into a year in Southern
California, dealing with the pandemic
in a ministry context
rather than in a, in a, developing,
developing world context.
And, that's really where I started
seeing, more of the fruit of this digital
first world coming into play
in lockdown in California.
And I remember David talking to you
several times on the phone, during the,
during Covid and Mike.
And it would be wild to just be back
to relatively business
as usual in May or June of 2020.
And in California, I know that, Anthony,
you were there at that time as well.
You know, it was very much, digital
only was the way that people were engaging
with one another.
And, so really that was kind of a, a,
a proving ground for me in a lot of ways
of trying to figure out, okay,
how do we as ministry leaders,
still engage with a local church context
in a world
where you got access
to unlimited information?
And of course, we've seen
that like, exponential with, with AI, but,
at the time, it's like I can tune into
any church in the entire world digitally.
So what makes engaging
with my local church
in the Central Coast
of California different?
And is there actually
something profoundly,
discipleship oriented
with me being connected with somebody
that I have a physical relationship
with rather than just me streaming
whatever service happens to be online
that's the most compelling.
And so that was,
kind of the beginning of, of my journey
with, with the company
that I'm a part of now.
But, I, had the opportunity in 2021
to, to join the team at a company
that really kind of walks
that intersection of faith and technology
and, and, and that's where I'm at now.
Yeah.
So what I'm hearing you say is basically
you are trying to trying to wrestle
with this idea where, you know,
can digital connection and community
be something that is valid
for information,
or is it is it a counterfeit
to the in-person and and we need to
we need to watch out for that.
Or is that or
is there some legitimacy to it
and actually can be functional and useful
even if it doesn't replace in-person
and face to face?
And so that's where you,
you were really trying
to get to the bottom of that,
which is so like where we're headed,
I mean, and, and in ways that we never
could have imagined back then, both
because of the reality of how comfortable
people are now just being online
because of Covid and that season,
but also because of the new technologies.
Totally.
Yeah.
And I think I think the point that
that I'm seeing,
or at least what I was seeing in 2021,
2022, is that people are increasingly tech
technologically engaged,
and are also simultaneously
becoming more disengaged
from in-person relationships.
And yet at the same time,
they're looking to digital tools,
and it's kind of a catalyst.
Almost back into those relationships is
where does that might sound?
So an example of this is,
you know, Covid requires separation.
Therefore I'm not connected with
I mean, even just in this room,
like we're doing this over,
you know, over video
podcasts, we're not in the same state
with one another.
And yet we're using the technology
as a means
to still find some semblance
of human connection.
Of course, this would be a lot better
if we could all sit down
at the same table in Phoenix, Arizona.
I think that we'd probably enjoy
sharing a cup of coffee together,
and that's
ultimately going to be the goal.
But there is something redemptive
about the fact
that we can still use technology
as a way to,
to to build some form of connection,
not that it's
meant to be a replacement of,
but but it's meant to be.
Yeah,
yeah, there's a there's a role for it.
And, and I think, you know,
to completely discount it and,
and and or be afraid of it or,
or whatever is,
is not going to be helpful for anyone
going forward in any aspect of life.
But but we do have to watch out
for how it replaces or like, what is it?
What is it?
If it becomes more convenient.
Convenient isn't always better,
you know, isn't always
creating the depth of the richness
and, and.
Yeah, like you said,
you mentioned it's fascinating that we can
listen to the greatest teachers
of all time, for the most part,
and definitely of our time,
you know, face to face
to some extent on a screen.
It's it's fascinating. The resource.
I actually was listening to something
this week and they were talking about
some of the advancements
in the language models of AI.
And they're saying, I mean,
within the next ten years, they don't
they don't know exactly what obstacles
will be there, but they they can't
imagine us not being able to translate
the Bible in every single language.
I mean, that's just awesome.
That's fascinating.
And that's great in connection
with the scriptures,
that's creating connection
with with God to some extent,
and that's bringing the world together
in a really unique and powerful way.
So there's so much opportunity there.
But at the same time, like what?
What what have you,
what have you found like,
it can't replace like,
have you concluded people can just have
their discipleship online?
No problem.
Or or is there an in-person reality?
And what what makes the in-person
more significant?
Totally.
And I think we felt this
the impacts of this in California
probably more than anywhere.
Was the years of increasing disconnection
and really the impact on the human soul
of not being in physical relationship
with one another in a meaningful way.
And, you know, my my job now,
I kind of live in the intersection
of faith and technology,
working for a company
that primarily serves the non-church,
nonprofit and church space.
And so I made that transition
kind of out of vocational ministry
into ministry adjacent
to corporate world in the end of 2021.
And and now that's that's what I do
for a living as I talk to, you know,
churches around the country, primarily
the larger churches on the West Coast.
So I spend a lot of time in San Jose,
working with church leaders
there less been a lot of time.
Los Angeles and obviously in Phoenix,
and get the opportunity
of talking with church leaders about,
okay, well, how is this change
the way that you think about discipleship
within your community?
Is it that we had this little blip
on the radar called Covid
and now we go back to business as usual?
Or is this actually changed fundamentally
the way that we think about the role
that technology plays in how we're going
to engage with people moving forward?
And the churches that I see in 2026
that are the most successful
at kind of bridging
that gap, have adopted what I call
kind of like a hybrid ministry model,
which is
we did the sermon series,
of course, David,
you know, almost ten years ago
called the other hours. Right.
We got into this concept that, you know,
God wants you to be good at life,
not good at church.
And we spend
probably two hours a week max.
In fact, if you look at the
the Barna stats, usually for most
Christians in America, it's more like,
visiting church once a month is more
the norm than once a week now.
So more like, you know, half an hour
a week is kind of the average.
You got 168 hours in a week, maybe 167 of
those people are spending outside church.
But at least as the token millennial
on this call, you know,
my generation is spending,
you know, five, six, seven hours a day
using this device, right, for work.
Outside of that, as well as the primary
connection point with the outside world,
I work remote, and all of my coworkers
are in different states.
So my reality eight hours
a day is on this device
that I'm using right now, connecting
with people in the outside world.
So it has become a source of connection,
but at the same time,
it's never going to replace what I have
with my in-person physical community.
And I feel like it's actually enhanced
that where I have a greater value now
for the relationships
I can have with people in person,
because it actually is something
that's a little bit more rare.
And I do think, getting back
to your question,
David, that will never be replaced.
The question is,
how did church leaders use this tool
and others as a resource to actually
perpetuate connection throughout the week?
In the in the midst of disconnection?
And that can look like a variety
of different things that can look like
what we're doing right now,
as a way to still engage with one another,
even if it's not,
you know, all at the same table,
sharing a cup of coffee,
which would be my preference
in a lot of ways. Yeah.
I want to ask you, Anthony, on that,
on that same note, I mean,
as far as the business sector as well,
I mean, it's it's the same thing
to some extent because,
you know,
if you can, if you can spend
time in person with somebody,
the amount of, of like, it's funny, I had
I had these two young guys, I'm
trying to help them get some, some work
done and, and basically we,
they came up with this.
Well, we came up with this idea of washing
trash cans.
So like, you know, everyone puts
their trash cans out one day.
The next day it's picked up.
So there's this little window
where you could, you could say,
hey, we'll come by and wash them
and then take them back to your house.
It's a little, little service
trying to make a little money.
And and it's there it was
these first guys really doing sales.
So they're they're going door to door
and, you know,
leaving a flier in the mailbox.
So there's a bit of, you know,
communication from a flier to a mailbox.
I had ChatGPT make the flier, by the way.
And it was it was awesome.
But but but that versus
if they can actually talk to someone
at the door, and these people can see
these two young guys who are trying
to make some money for college,
like the the poll for them to be like,
yeah, man, you could clean my trash
cans for $25 with like the different
the like in marketing you got.
I mean, you guys studied this,
you perfected this to where it's like
if somebody sees something one time,
if somebody sees something 27 times,
if somebody sees a flier versus
if somebody has a conversation.
And so tell us a little bit
about the power of that,
like in person connection versus
those other things,
even though those other things
can be valuable.
Yeah. Oh, gosh.
So much to say.
You know, maybe just on practically.
Yes. The, the digital touch points,
you know, matter
there's like air cover
and all the stats are true.
I forgot what the wing
just referenced around.
You have to see something several times
in order to like,
form the decision to buy it.
But I think what we're also reacting
to a little bit
as consumers of things like that
we might be marketed
and marketed to us is we're sort of tired
of all this sort of like transactional,
ads and the things that are just trying
to get us to pull the wallet out
and buy the thing.
Or even easier
now with like, an Apple Pay, right.
And so the bigger trend that I'm seeing
is more of this move from transactions
to relationship driven marketing or sales
or whatever the case is,
and it's the same.
It's it's it's what you're, you're,
you're referencing
with this idea of the kind of, you know,
cleaning business on the trash cans.
It's like we need a way to, communicate
who we are, what we stand for.
And oftentimes in many of those cases,
people buy into what you are,
why you do things more than what you do.
It's the whole Simon sick
kind of Golden Circle thing,
which the great YouTube video folks
haven't seen it. Yeah.
And so my belief on the marketing side
is, well,
that's a really cool
opportunity for us to almost
not, not necessarily step away
completely from transactional marketing,
although I do think there's a AI driven
future for a lot of that body of work
and focus more on telling stories
and being authentic
and having kind of conversations
like this one, where you can talk about
the why a little bit more.
You can introduce yourself, who you are,
what you're, what you stand for,
maybe be a little vulnerable or authentic.
And that
fits into the research
that shows people buy products
and services emotionally, and then they
justify that purchase functionally
or through some type of rational, bit.
So so I'd say that's that's all very true.
I will say
also the brand, your background is just
bringing up a lot of memories from I was
I worked at a company
that was in the virtual event space
during the pandemic.
And let's just say it went really well.
And then very quickly, not so much.
And I think that that example
I know I'm referring specifically to like
event organizers and in the tech space,
a very different kind of use case.
But, it spoke to just
humanity's desire to be in person,
to be with each other,
to build relationship
and get back to that, that kind of core.
Very human need that we have.
And so I think it's no surprise
that we're seeing, even as a reaction
to the AI kind of transformation
and everything that's happening,
there's a lot of dialog around
2026 is the year of analog
or the year of in-person or offline,
or these types of words.
And I don't think that's kind of become
the the kind of primary kind of lever yet.
But I do think it just speaks
to this whole thing. Right?
It speaks to our desire
to be with each other in community,
in person, and, candidly,
as a marketer, at least,
it gives me some hope for the profession
because I'd feel good
about going to work every day
helping cultivate relationships.
And, and so, I'm, I'm
quite optimistic about that brand.
I thought it was so interesting
when you said
that, basically, you're describing
your situation where your work life is
literally spread out all over the country
and maybe even the world.
Or is it is it all us space?
It's all over the world.
I mean, I'm targeted on the West Coast,
but I had a, you know, I had a deal
that I was working with in Australia
at the last couple of weeks, and,
so your work
life, though, is so is so broad,
but then your but then your, your,
your personal life, your home
life is actually it's actually smaller
than maybe you ever imagined it would be.
And, and because I know you've,
you've always just had a lot of friends
and, you know, at GQ,
you kind of were connected to everybody,
but like, your your really meaningful life
connections, the one that create
the most formation in your life
and the most community have actually
shrunk smaller and smaller and, and
and yet are so valuable and so meaningful.
And so I think
that's an interesting thing.
It almost makes me think back
to, you know, when, when people
used to not have cars, used to not,
you know, have all these other things
that basically was like you and your farm,
you know, your family, and then you'd have
a little action interaction
when with the neighbors, whenever you're
raising the barn or something, you know.
But basically, you weren't you weren't
your most important personal connections.
The other hours people was a smaller
segment of society and probably much
deeper and more, you know, more
because you're not so spread out.
And,
and even though at that point, you know,
they weren't having connections
all over the world or whatever,
but I just, I don't know, it
almost made me think that it's almost like
there's been this kind of come back from,
you know, being being out every night,
going to hang out with everybody
all the time, having hundreds
and hundreds of friends
to, to now, like they're more precious.
The connections you do have
and you can get deeper in those things.
And I don't know, there's something
kind of beautiful about that.
And I know you have, you know, young kids.
So it's like that's another part
where I remember when we first had
our first born, for the first six months,
she just screamed from 4 p.m.
to 10 p.m. every day.
So our our circle got real small,
you know, it was basically like
the three of us, my wife and her, people.
But, hey, you want to come over?
We're like, you don't want us to come,
but we'll just scream the whole time.
So that's another part of it.
But yeah, I think,
I think hopefully what some of that can do
is, is help us to hold,
these things more sacred
and more precious and, and,
and really invest in those relationships,
as long as we can,
as long as, you know, work life online
life is just that.
And then we close that and we don't go,
you know, scrolling and and, like,
trying to have all these, you know,
those dopamine
hit connections that that really
are not connections at all, but they feel
like connections or the parasocial
or whatever dynamic that's going on.
The other thing I thought of when you were
talking, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
No, I was going to say, thinking about
Anthony's point a moment ago
of just the value of the in-person
connection.
And like, he's a marketer.
I work in sales. Right.
So kind of rare that we get we get on the
same call together, which is kind of fun.
But, you know what I've seen, even
just professionally over the last
12 months is that
people are becoming
increasingly suspicious of
what's coming into their inbox
or the communication
that they're receiving,
because it is this question of
is this human or is this I.
And to
Anthony's point, you know what I mean.
I've found that, you know,
my job is connecting with human beings,
which is almost exclusively done
using technology.
But what I'm finding now is that
the more human that I can be the better.
Right.
And there's a I mean, just
we can get into this as much as we want
to, you know, the fears.
Around artificial intelligence
and what that means for the billion
knowledge workers
in the world of which I'm one.
You know what I mean?
Of of replacement or whatever
that might potentially look like.
I think
the thing that people are grappling
with right now is this greater question
of the entire podcast.
It's what does it mean to be human?
And what do we have that
an artificial intelligence
is never going to
and how can we lean into that even deeper?
And even,
you know, to your point, David, like,
how do I lean
into relationships in my life
that are the most meaningful?
Because artificial intelligence is kind of
showing us the other side of that,
or the artificial version of connection
to the artificial version
of intelligence itself, and then realizing
what it means to actually be human
and then double down on those things.
So like in my, in my professional world,
like, you know, I, I, I do a lot of things
that I are more analog than I ever have
because I have to, you know what I mean?
I'll make more phone calls
and I'll send emails.
I'll show up at people's doorsteps more
so than I used to even 3 or 4 years ago,
just to prove a I'm
a I'm a real person out here.
It's not just something that was,
you know, sent to you via, you know,
ChatGPT to your cloud or whatever.
And I don't see that, changing.
I think realistically,
we do see this pendulum swing of,
like, adoption
and then kind of the reaction against it.
And I think it's almost like we're seeing
that more and more extreme right now
where it's like, okay, where's the limit?
Oh, we're going to swing back this way.
And I think the truth is somewhere
in between.
It's like these tools are tools.
They can be extremely helpful.
But the reality is that, like
our humanity is still an
essential ingredient in all of this.
And I think that's obviously
that's something
we can get really, really deep into,
especially like what does it mean
to be human in the age of AI
and especially as a sales
professional or a marketing professional
or as a pastor?
That's really the question.
I think all of us are probably grappling
with to some degree.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I was talking about in the sermon
or yesterday for, for us, I don't know
when people are listening to this, but,
the thing that just gives me so much
comfort is the greatest thing
in all of creation is humanity.
I mean, it's just
nothing is going to replace that.
And, and, and I think that's where there's
a little bit of a
like reaction to artificial intelligence
that's like, get out of here.
You're no good because the devil is always
trying to counterfeit
what God makes,
what God does, who God is like.
There's counterfeit
love, there's counterfeit peace.
There's counterfeit, you know, like hope.
There's there's
the devil's always providing.
The world's always providing
counterfeits to the real thing.
But but eventually,
everyone knows that's a counterfeit.
You know?
Like, you can get high, you know, and feel
a lot of peace or maybe a lot of joy.
But everyone knows that's not real and
is actually going to damage your humanity.
And that's
what happens with all the counterfeits.
And I think that's where it's like with
AI, there is a reality of, you know,
I could see the devil being like,
yeah, let's counterfeit humanity,
let's, you know, and even to the point
where transhumanism comes in, where
it's like, let's continue
to, you know, like counterfeit humanity
to the point where people are now like,
like basically,
you know, making themselves
into no longer human,
you know,
like they're trying to get ahead.
They're desecrating the holy,
they're crossing boundaries
that God has given us
so that they can be superhuman.
Right.
Like the enhancement games or,
you know, or whatever
kind of cyborg
realities might be coming down the way.
Again,
I don't think all of the inventions
and technologies will be negative or bad,
but there is a point
at which people will take it too far
trying to grasp,
you know, God like character trying to to
to dominate others or,
or to, you know,
their ambitions will will take them
beyond what is, what is holy,
what is sacred, what is right.
And that will be there.
But that's just a counterfeit.
Everyone's going to know
it's a counterfeit.
Eventually I'm I'm gonna be like,
yeah, I've watched that destroy your life.
So I don't think that's even good,
even though
it might have given you a good buzz.
Or maybe you got five years of really cool
look at how amazing that guy is.
But eventually it's going to strip you
of everything that's truly valuable.
So I think the, you know,
the comfort is just always like humanity.
God is so anthropocentric, right?
And we shouldn't be anthropocentric.
You know,
as far as thinking, man is the center or
the greatest or human is are the greatest.
But for some reason
God has decided to be that way
where he's so anthropocentric
and we need to be Theo centric,
where God is the center of the universe.
That was in the sermon on, yesterday.
But but yeah,
I think I think that gives me comfort.
But then also
we need to watch out, though,
because because the counterfeit,
there is a counterfeit reality
and we can bite into too much of that
thinking this is a good thing
or thinking this will make us wise,
kind of that same thing from Genesis.
But really, it just,
you know, it's a desecration.
Well, the interesting thing is,
that we're seeing right now
is there's actually a shift
that's happening with the use of AI.
And, Anthony, you have this into
you got a little bit into this last,
you know, last week's podcast.
But, the primary functions of why
people are actually using a chat bot,
like a ChatGPT
or a Claude has actually shifted,
away from just knowledge
acquisition to companionship.
Oh yeah.
So as people are feeling more
and more disconnected from tech,
you know, as a result of technology
to some degree also,
you know, political polarization,
the pandemic kind of expedited
kind of what was already,
I think, happening in our country
underneath the surface and just kind of
put it in hyperdrive for a few years.
People are looking for what's real.
And then that sense of connection,
and if they're not finding it
in their physical relationships
or in their faith community or whatever,
that might look like,
they're actually going to
AI to seek a pseudo form of companionship
as a way to kind of fill that void.
And so as, you know,
somebody who's a pastor
or somebody who's seeing that,
I think that the church needs to be
needs to understand that
reality, that there is an enormous gap
that the people around
the world are feeling right now
where it's like, okay,
I feel more disconnected than ever.
I feel more uncertain than ever.
There's I mean, we read the headlines.
You know, for those of us
who were these knowledge
workers were like, are we all going to be
replaced in two years or three weeks?
And, I mean, I've been feeling that
anxiety just being fully transparent.
It's like, will I, you know,
will I have a is there a job
for me in, in the future
with artificial intelligence?
If this thing can write better than I can
and can speak better than I can,
and you know,
it can be more efficient than I can be.
It's a call,
I think, for for those who hold the truth
and can actually engage with people
personally to get out there and actually
be more
human, in the midst of all of that.
So, I don't know, I throw that out there
for the sake of, conversation,
but I do think that's fascinating,
that as quickly as artificial intelligence
is being developed,
the fact that people
are naturally gravitating towards, oh,
I don't want information.
I actually want connection.
And are starting to actually
use these chat bots as a way to try to
glean that form of connection there may be
missing in their physical lives.
I, I'm, I'm going to throw out something
a little vulnerable,
but I'm curious
to get your guys read on it
just in context
of this companionship thing,
because I don't know if I would
necessarily deem this companionship, but
kind of a weird use of
AI that I've found myself doing.
And I've shared in the podcast, like,
definitely
health anxiety is like a big thing.
I struggle with.
And, you know, over time I said, like,
you know, blood test results
and all these sorts of things.
And which is actually like
a really compelling use case because I can
look at data across
different things over time,
and that could help just be proactive
about health more generally.
Yeah.
But the struggle, the shadow side
from an anxiety perspective,
at least in my story, is
I tend to ruminate on things
and I'm like almost like a OCD type
of way of like, oh gosh, I have,
you know, I'm making whatever it is.
Like, maybe I'm dying.
Like, let me Google this. Right.
And so it used to be the Google,
the doctor, Google or whatever
I think was the, the,
the phrasing for people like me.
And now it's ChatGPT. Right.
And so the way I've sort of used it
a little bit from the health perspective,
which I, I'm curious how
how you all would receive this is almost
some questions I'd be too embarrassed
to ask a nurse practitioner or someone.
So like, what's wrong with this guy?
Like stop
messaging us on the My Health app?
Dude. Like move on.
I would ask ChatGPT
and what I've noticed is
actually, two different, maybe.
As a slight aside, reactions ChatGPT
would be like
very optimistic about it and the like.
Great question. Like, here's
what I'm seeing.
Like, oh, you're probably like,
no, no, Claude cut me off.
It was like, I am not going to answer this
for you like you have to.
This is a health anxiety thing.
Like
you need to talk to a human about this.
You are fine.
But my telling you you're fine
all the time is not going to help
you kind of get to the other end.
Interesting.
And so that was a
really interesting dynamic.
But I'm curious because I'm definitely
weird and I shouldn't be doing this.
I know I'm working on it, but also like
it's less companionship for me,
but it
it is almost an enabler of a behavior
that I otherwise
would not have had it not been so
knowledge rich, right.
And and having the more convenient,
my convenient and convenient.
Yeah, totally.
So so my my my self accountability
is locking my cell phone away.
To your point David. After after work.
But, yeah, I do feel that temptation.
Maybe it's not companionship, but to man
driven assurance that I'm going to be okay
versus bringing you that
in prayer to God, into the Holy Spirit.
And so that's something I'm wrestling
with, and I suspect others might as well.
Oh, I bet you there's
so many people that are like,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's, I think,
you know, obviously because I've had
my, you know, back issues this year
and my, my nerve issues.
And so there was, I was, I was definitely
saying, oh like what's the best,
what's the best position to sleep
if I got this, this
and this and had some good ideas
and sometimes it steered me in a,
in a helpful way,
sometimes it, you know, I didn't,
but but no, I think that's a fascinating
because it, because you're talking
about more than, than just medical.
Because we know there's limitations to it
medically for sure.
But you're saying like I also just look,
I'm asking it
not just for medical advice,
but also for a little reassurance.
A little encouragement, a little like
you're like all these other things.
And is it, is it feeding?
You know, is it feeding anxiety
or or is it just like,
I mean, maybe even worse is it's
just giving me a false sense of,
you know, everything's okay when maybe
it's not or things aren't okay when it is.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I hear Dalton in my head a lot.
Dalton works his living streams
and he's he's over our creative arts
department and and he's he's a,
what do you call it as the xenial.
There's,
like a Gen Z.
He's, you know, he's a little bit younger
than I am.
So he's, I would say safely in the Gen Z
category, but, walks that line like I do.
But he's got his 90s babies.
He's also got an old soul in some ways.
So he just got himself a flip phone,
you know, because he's in full revolt.
He's in for, like, get your hands off me.
Someone someone was texting, like,
some funny photos.
Like, I generated photos of me
and him or him and and somebody else.
And he was like, please stop.
Because I don't really want China to have
all these pictures of me, you know?
So like, he's he's like,
he's he's got a little bit
of those guardrails in his own life,
you know, and I think he's
got his own server at home kind of stuff,
you know, like all that type of stuff.
But but but I've been,
but I've also been it's been interesting
because he's younger. Right.
And he's at the cutting edge of,
you know, the digital world
and he's using all those tools,
but he's also just trying to make sure
that it doesn't get its hooks in him,
so to speak.
And so he,
he talks about digital discipline.
He tried to,
you know, he's like our church
to just go on a digital sabbatical.
And I always totally I was like,
it's it's so funny because he's really.
And like,
he just tries to get people say don't
trust like these,
these things still make so many mistakes.
So don't put too much trust in them.
And so it's just it's just so funny
because I almost hear, like, you know,
the 65 year olds saying all these things
through Dalton's like 30 year old body.
You know, it's kind of funny, but, but
yeah, no, I think that's a huge reality.
And I do think what you're saying,
Anthony, you're so insightful to where.
Yes, we have to have self-control.
We have to make sure it's not replacing.
That's what
that's what Tim Keller used to always say.
Is that anything that gives us what God's
supposed to gives us is idolatry.
Like, so anything,
anytime we're looking to something
for something that the Lord should give us
and really primarily like,
you know, obviously like my wife,
I look to my wife for certain things.
But as long as I'm,
you know, looking to the Lord above that
and then my wife and then, you know,
like, if I have a decisions to make,
I go to the Lord first.
And he has the highest place.
But then I go to my wife,
I go to some friends.
I look, you know, all those things.
So it's not bad to do that, but it's
just at what point are we trusting in it?
More so than than the Lord or more often,
you know, and I think that's
that's really what it comes down to.
And that's the line that we're,
we're going to have to figure out
all individually, but also as a church,
for, for the world.
Well, something interesting that,
that Anthony is bringing up to
is this reality that the technology itself
is not neutral.
Right.
There's actually something behind it
that is that
it's that is influencing us
and actually forming us.
And this isn't new.
Like I think that, you know,
artificial intelligence is kind of put
like an entity associated with technology
and therefore we relate to it
almost more human than ever before.
But the reality is these are tools
that have been around for a long time.
This is just kind
of the culmination of that.
So going back to the mid 20th century,
you know, you look at some writings
like if you're familiar
with Marshall McLuhan,
medium theory, that whole thing,
it's like the the tools themselves
actually have the ability
to form the way that we communicate,
the way that we engage with the world,
not just the information itself.
And so like to what,
what Anthony, bring up there
is that actually what's written
into Claude versus ChatGPT is actually
a totally different philosophy of
how information is meant to be acquired.
So like ChatGPT, to your point,
it has a tendency to almost be
a little bit more sycophantic.
It's like, yeah, you're great.
Like, just keep going.
You know what I mean?
Because the ultimate goal
is maximum engagement, right?
So it's like,
how long can I stay in this chat?
But how many tokens can I spend?
And they'll give you leading questions
at the end of everything.
Like, that's right.
I can tell you more about this
if you want.
You're like,
I need to know more about that. Yeah.
Why they ask that? Like what?
What do they know that I don't know
exactly. Yeah.
And we're kidding ourselves
before thinking that anthropic doesn't
have that bent to you.
But there is definitely,
like a level of restraint
that I'm seeing on that side of things
where it's like, okay, but, you know,
there needs to be a natural kind
of pushback because the reality is, like,
if I'm looking to ChatGPT
as a source of companionship
and the source of information, and I'm
no longer I'm almost giving up my agency
in terms of like
with a Google search list,
I can choose
which article to click on with chat.
I'm not. It's choosing the article for me.
So the way that I'm
acquiring information is changed.
So I would say my caution to,
you know, people that are listening
is don't give up
your agency right to an agent
is take
a step back and realize that these tools
actually in, in and of themselves
have formation capability.
And I don't think that, you know,
the answer is to to run
and hide from these things.
But at the same time,
there is an opportunity
to show some restraint
in the way that we engage with the tools
and say, okay, that,
you know, if I think that the example that
Marshall McLuhan gave when he was writing
a medium during the mid 20th century was,
you know, I use a tool to,
you know, use a shovel to dig a hole.
And the tool is is forming the earth.
But I may get blisters
and in a way that the tool itself
is actually forming me in the process.
And so I think that, you know, applied
to artificial intelligence is I'm
using the tool to get information,
but it's also informing
the way that I'm thinking
about that information and packaging it
in such a way
that I'm receiving it differently.
Whether I type that same prompt
in the chat
versus in the cloud versus in Google,
or I take that same prompt
into a relationship with a friend,
or I take that to the Lord.
You know what I mean?
And then that gets into a really
interesting place where it's like,
okay, well,
to just speak through
ChatGPT can God speak for Claude?
And then it's well, yeah, for sure
he could.
But at the same time, it's like, you know,
showing that level of restraint for us
who are users and understanding
that, like, there's actually something
that's forming me personally
with just choosing to use this method
in order to receive that information
to Dalton's point.
You know what I mean?
It it's not a neutral thing.
It is actually forming us
as human beings to a degree.
So that's where I love
what I'm seeing right now with anthropic,
the way
they are reaching out to faith leaders
and saying, hey, as we build these tools,
we want you to give input
because we realize that this is ultimately
going to be incredibly formation,
all for the way that humanity engages
with information forward.
Yeah, I think some of the verses
that come to mind are,
you know, all things are lawful,
but not all things are profitable.
And, and and then,
you know, all things in moderation.
I think, again, it's
just there's just a self-control element.
There's a, you know,
there's a restraint
that's required for everything.
You know, the everything is good.
There's actually a verse that says,
everything is good and to be received,
if it's received with the word of God,
if it's sanctified
by the Word of God in prayer.
And so I think, you know, Paul again,
whatever
he was dealing with in, in his writings,
with the people saying, is this okay?
Is this okay, is this okay? Is this okay?
Basically who's saying, stop
freaking out about everything?
Everything's fine as long as it's
sanctified by the Word of God in prayer.
And and so I think
even this, it's just like, okay.
Yeah, this tool can be a wonderful,
helpful thing
as long as we have some self-control,
we realize there needs to be moderation,
and it's sanctified by the Word of God
in prayer.
It's not replacing our relationship with
the Lord or it's it's not steering us out.
But as long as we're
you know, prayed up, as long as we're,
we're we're solid on the word of God.
This is going to be a wonderful little
journey that we're going to go on in this
in this thing.
And I love Paul's perspective on that.
And I think that's a good way
to look at all of these things.
So but but dude, tread lightly.
You know, like, you know,
I also think of the story when David
was bringing the Ark of the covenant
into Jerusalem every six steps,
he would he would he would stop.
He would, you know, provide sacrifice,
worship the Lord, get on his knees.
And then he would stand up
and take another six steps,
and then he would get on his knees,
they would make a sacrifice,
and he would just realized, like,
this is something so precious and sacred
and, and bigger than me
that I, that I need to just go real slow.
And we actually I say that oftentimes here
at Living Streams to us, we're as we're
trying to go forward and make decisions,
be like, hey, every six steps.
We need to also just pause
and thank the Lord
and kind of retreat
because we're so quick to to veer off.
You know, our alignment is so bad often,
so we just need to,
to go slow with this thing.
But but go forward.
I mean, I don't I don't see any reason
not to go forward, but, yeah.
And some of the stuff you guys are saying
is, has been, has been really helpful.
Yeah.
So what's,
what is, what's some of the stuff
that your company does provide right now?
Brandon I thought people
might be interested in that.
Like what's some of the,
the tools that you guys do
offer to churches and ministries?
But also, is there anything like that
you're excited
that's coming down the pike? It's
going to be so cool.
Kind of like the new Switchfoot
album that just came out.
Sorry, I had to tell, you know, hey,
you have to eat.
Right? So,
I haven't had a chance to listen to yet.
I, but definitely will, you know,
you give me a trouble,
you know, asking a question like that
because I'm privy to something
that's not entirely publicly yet, but,
I'll get a little bit of the backstory.
Like, the company I work for
was founded, in the early 2000,
in Seattle, right across the street
from Microsoft's headquarters.
And so our founder was actually working
in that space and kind of that
tech bubble, Seattle, San Francisco
kind of being kind of the main hubs
here in the US for for tech innovation
at least over the last 20 years.
And, saw the advent of this device
coming down the pipeline
and said, you know, we need to the church
needs to be engaged in that space.
If we're going from a desktop
to to remote, you know, mobile first
reality of how people access information
to a lesser degree,
then, I mean, I but at the same time,
pretty revolutionary where we
when all of a sudden people started
being able to walk around
with a supercomputer in their pocket.
You know, and so, at the time, you know,
founder of Sub Splash, which is a company
I worked for, Tim Turner.
He reached out to his leadership team
in Seattle at the church.
He was a part of and said, hey,
we have this, you know, this device
can be coming out called the iPhone,
and there's going to be this app store
that's associated with it.
And we're going to
I think that's going to be
where people are
accessing information
more so than on websites anymore.
And so we basically want to build
a mobile app for,
for the local church
as a place that really people
are accessing information
and, and content as a primary vehicle.
And so,
so Tim released, the first ever church
app in 2028, beginning in 2009
with released by phone one.
And that kind of jumpstarted
what we were doing.
And so a lot of people are familiar
with splash,
you know, we're
think of us as an app company.
The truth is really is
is an innovation company.
So really the goal
is to be on the cutting edge of technology
for the sake of the church.
Ultimately, for the sake of driving
the discipleship engagement
process towards what you're talking about.
David, which is a primarily
the end goal being physical engagement,
but the reality that people are spending
167 hours a week
outside of physical church experience,
and those hours can be redemptive.
So even getting into like what
I'm talking about,
the mediums themselves,
like YouTube, is not neutral.
Google is not a neutral place.
These tools have the ability
to kind of form
the way that we access information
and the way that we perceive the world.
And my company, such as what we try to do
is, is provide technology
that even though
what we build is not neutral
either, it's got a natural bent towards,
making sure that the tech
is actually helping facilitate
meaningful engagement
and gospel centered content first and done
so in a more distraction free environment.
So like very practical example, is a
stream, a live stream from a local church.
I can do that on YouTube. That's great.
Probably helps with, you know,
monetization or clicks or whatever,
but there's this little sidebar
of suggestive content
that's happening that is
that people have a tendency to like,
oh, this is interesting, Pastor David.
But this, this other thing
that Google the world's going to end.
So so how do we remove that,
for the sake of formation and say, okay,
you know, instead of me
clicking into those other things,
I'm watching the sermon
and here's the passage of Scripture
that goes along with it.
Getting to what I'm excited about is
how I actually plays a role in the way
that we access gospel centered content.
And trying to be involved in that process
of helping these lenses,
you know, these learning models, be able
to surface the right type of content,
for the sake of, formation.
And so, really,
really interesting example of this,
is, I was talking to a pastor in the,
in the Bay area, a few weeks ago, and,
what he was,
he was telling the story of,
basically, there was a lady who had moved
to, to the US from India.
She works one of the major tech companies
in the, in the Bay area.
And, she was experiencing
what she called these spiritual questions.
She felt far, far from the gods.
Her words that might.
And so she went to ChatGPT and said,
you know, here are my spiritual questions.
You know, help me,
with these.
And, she ended up actually getting,
referred over to from Chappie
to ChatGPT, a local church
just down the road from her
where the pastor of that church
had actually spoken
about the topic that she was asking about.
And then she ended up going to that church
on a Sunday morning.
Had an encounter with the Lord.
I can actually link the story
to this from,
a pastor in the Bay area
that's, a friend of mine.
But that that seems like that. What?
That kind of like was God
just sort of using the tool as a way
to get her connected with in,
in a physical, in-person engagement
where she had the opportunity
to kind of the Holy Spirit
and, and ultimately,
you know, receive salvation.
And so what my company right now,
what we're doing is, okay,
you know,
that God was involved in that for sure.
How do we actually use some of that
people
searching as a method to land people
with the right gospel centered
content to ultimately, you know, act upon.
So instead of just by happenstance,
she ends up at a Christian church
down the street from her
where she ChatGPT doesn't care.
They could have served up
something very different.
How do we actually get in
into influencing the the you and things
like that?
So ultimately be able
to, result in people finding truth.
And as you know,
as Christians in the tech space,
how do we ultimately use
these tools as vehicles to,
to try to, help people encounter
Jesus in a meaningful way?
Totally, totally.
Well, that's good stuff, guys.
Thanks so much for for joining in.
And, looking forward to next week.
We'll,
we'll dive into some of these new stuff
and see what's still coming down the pike.
But yeah, thanks, Brandon.
Also, for the time.
I hope you have a good, good time
this summer up in Idaho.
And the winter is not too bad for you.
That's great.
But I know from Michigan,
so you can handle it.
Sure. But. Yeah. And,
and we do. We just.
We thank you for tuning in
to listen to this.
Hopefully that you found,
you know, some things here
and there that were helpful
for your journey where you're at,
what's going on,
if you could like or share,
I mean, those type of things, they do
help, get the word out to other people.
And if you have comments or anything,
leave that in the in the comment section.
Or, you can send an email to the Living
Streams church and we'll get that.
And if you have questions
you want us to touch on on this podcast,
we we're happy to do that as well.
And we will try and get some of
those things we mentioned in, into the
the comment section
or so you can link to that.
But yeah, thanks again guys, and I God bless everyone and we'll see you next time.