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Creator Generation brings you behind the scenes of the creator economy, featuring top YouTubers and experts who share the strategies, lessons, and stories behind building successful channels, growing incredible businesses, and driving the world’s biggest online video successes.
Hey. I'm Fred.
Ant:And I'm Ant.
Fred:And this is Creator Generation. Creator Generation of hype.
Ant:Most people talk about building an audience like it's the main goal. Justin Brown will tell you it's just the starting line. He walked away from a video production business that was paying his bills, clients, retainers, the whole shebang to bet everything on YouTube. That channel is now Primal Video, which teaches creators how to make videos using the best techniques with a focus on what actually works.
Fred:Apart from the nearly 2,000,000 subscribers who follow him, what's really impressive is the business he's built around the channel, the systems behind the output, the revenue lines beyond the ad share, and what it actually means to own your own audience. Justin, welcome to Creator Generation.
Justin:Thanks for having me back on. It's been a while.
Fred:It has been a while, hasn't it? Straight into it. Gonna ask. You had a video production company doing well. What made you think that YouTube was the right bet?
Justin:I don't know that if we ever thought it was the right bet. It was more of a gamble. And I, look, I, with working in production, I had these clients that were spending the bulk of their budget on making the thing, not getting the thing out there. And it was, it was great, but then, you know, and I, I can't complain. Like these people are paying me good money to make their videos, but then when there's no marketing strategy behind it, it's hard to show the traction that those things got or didn't get.
Justin:So it got to the point where I was like, you know what? Let's just help people with this. Let's just create content. Let's put it up on YouTube. No expectation.
Justin:And at the same time in parallel, I was working on this documentary called the abundance code, and I was interviewing all these top level digital marketing entrepreneur people, and they were just giving away free stuff. Like, their best stuff was what they were putting out there. I'm like, okay. There's something in here. We don't have it by any means figured out, but let's give this thing a go.
Justin:Let's just start putting out content on YouTube, not holding back, dangling a carrot for people to come by a course or something. It's like, no. Let's just put out the good shit and see what happens.
Ant:Just a quick, level set. When, like, when are we talking? How long ago was this?
Justin:2014, I think we put our first video out end of twenty fourteen. And it was, yeah, it was an old channel that I'd had. I should have started a new one at the time, but it was just an old channel with a few GoPro videos and stuff up there. Like, we started as video editing coach. That was the piece I was most excited about because all the editing stuff online was you need to go to film school.
Justin:Here's how to get your levels right for broadcast. And I'm like, business owners don't give a shit about this. They just wanna get their their video out. And I copped a lot of shit from friends and peers that were, you know, professional color graders and all of this stuff. Like, you're misleading people.
Justin:I'm like, no. I'm telling them what they need to know. But it was so almost, like, backwards from or against the industry that I was in. So it was pushing comfort zones for sure.
Fred:And was that first part scary, obviously, going from having production into something that was really, really new?
Justin:I think the the scariest bit was me getting in front of camera. I used to hate having my photo taken, let alone speak, or the fear of the idea of being on something like this. It That was pushing comfort zones for sure. So I started the channel with my brother, Mike, and I thought I'd be filming him, and he'd be sharing tips or whatever. We really didn't have this figured out.
Justin:And he's like, no. You're the video guy. If we're making a video channel, you need to be the one that's on. So it's really been this growth journey of pushing comfort zones. And, this is why I like that book, the obstacle is the way.
Justin:I'm so glad I read that book where it's like you tackle your fears head on, and then it just expands your comfort zone. And then it's like, cool. I can do this now. What's next? I can do this now.
Justin:What's next? And it really has been that. Like, I'm definitely not an on camera person. I'm still today not like, yes. It's filming day.
Justin:I like the outcome of the videos being made more than the process of making the videos. And we
Fred:are focusing this this time around with the Creator Generation being, you know, on the processes, the businesses behind creators. And one thing you are obviously very good at, just having a chat to you, is processes and is the, well, effectively the business behind your channel. So I wanna dive a little deeper into that and talk a bit more about how that works. What systems do you as a as going from a as someone who's running a YouTube channel to someone who's running a business, what are the most central systems that you need to put in place to make that happen?
Justin:I think now my answer's gonna be a little different to where we started. Where we started was let's scale this thing. Let's grow it. Let's build. Like, we're gonna need team.
Justin:We're gonna need all of these things. And then to run team, well, then I've gotta learn how to lead a team and be a good boss. And at one point, we had, like, 14 staff. And I know like, I feel sorry for the first people that we hired, because I had no idea. Like, I go from just running this lifestyle business with my brother who we could totally disagree on something and call each other every name under the sun because we're family and then just to go for a beer afterwards too.
Justin:You can't do that with employees. Mhmm. So, yeah, we we've we've gone through a lot with this, but I think the most important piece, is getting clear on where you actually want this to go and working backwards from that. I know that's kind of a cliche cliche answer, but it's something that we're still doing today. Like, what is the goal of the business?
Justin:Where do I wanna spend my time? Where am I spending my time? And like, so this is it's called the swimming lanes exercise. And you go through and you you almost like audit your day. Everyone on the team does this now.
Justin:And I wish that was something we did earlier. So we all have a goal, and then we're looking at where are we spending our time, and then we can shift focus. Do we really need to spend three hours a day responding to YouTube comments or whatever it might be? Like, what are the things that are growing the business? And from there, it'd be very clear.
Justin:Alright. We need more focus on things like email list or who's spinning up lead magnets and opt in pages and all of that kind of stuff. Because there is a finite amount of time and resources and things, and especially if you're just starting this out, you really wanna be mindful of where your time is going and is that the right places.
Ant:I cannot agree with that statement more, and I think it's like, it's it's incredibly undervalued as a piece of work for creators to actually do it. Yeah. And and found like, you know, business, you know, business first founders do it more, but still there's a gap. But creators especially, like, last week, you know, talking to some really great operators in The States around this, and it was kinda like, they're out there banging the drum. Creators, what's your vision?
Ant:What's your mission? What's your, like, objectives and your goals? Because then you actually can say yes to the right things and no to the wrong things. And yet, like, know what's valuable and important. So I, like, yeah, I just wanna, like, jump up and down from the the rooftops on that one.
Justin:That wasn't me starting out, though. That was drilled into me from Mike and from years of all the mistakes and and just, you know, being on that hamster wheel, create a video. It's a week gone by. Create the next video because we've done now a week. We haven't missed a week.
Justin:And so since 2014, we've done at least one video a week. And there's parts of that that are like, you wake up on the, you know, the sun. They're like, shit. What what video are we putting out this week? And then there's others where we're eight weeks ahead.
Justin:So it was the systems that really helped take that pressure off, and there's no idea to stay in my lane, but also to do that exercise all the time because things are changing. Like, AI right now is speeding things up significantly. Am I gonna spend a a bunch of time, taken away from something else to try and streamline those processes so that we can do things faster and better? And it's kind of always that balancing act of of the right amount of time, but I hated this stuff at the start as a creator, a creative person. Don't put me in a box.
Justin:Don't make me follow a system or process. That was doing that swimming lanes exercise, I didn't wanna do it because it was gonna highlight all the areas I was procrastinating and just watching YouTube and just wasting time. And I had to do it, though, to show the team. If I didn't do it, how could I expect the team to do it? And so but it's it's all good.
Justin:You know? It it's it's one of the greatest things now that I, again, fly the flag for because if you don't know, then you're just making assumptions. And I would always assume that I'm not spending much time watching YouTube, but I am. So I I at least now I know how much, and I can dial it back. Yeah.
Fred:Where did you learn it, though? Where did I mean, a lot of creators are really confused about where to go to get the information to scale their business. You obviously had to learn all that when you started out.
Justin:Yeah. We very quickly I mean, this to us. While I am a YouTube creator, I'm not really a YouTuber.
Fred:And I know I don't want
Justin:to say like to squash that for anyone. Think to me, it's a business tool. It is an amazing tool where I can share my thoughts and opinions and people hear it, people see it and resonate with it or not. Like, it's you're not for everyone. So to me, it was a business tool.
Justin:When it's working, it's bringing in leads, traffic for the business, and growing the impact that we can have. But it was never, yes, I wanna be a YouTuber. I wanna have nearly 2,000,000 subscribers. I mean, I'm super grateful that we do, but that was never the goal. And so to answer your question, what we did is we treated it like a business from day one, always testing different things, but also we were in and are still in different business groups, different business masterminds to learn how to grow your email list, to learn how to build different courses and programs, and learn messaging.
Justin:Messaging or communication is probably the biggest, most valuable skill that flows through from what you're saying in your videos through to the emails and the products and, yeah, talking about transformation. This is all the stuff I had to learn as well.
Fred:And I know you talked about the swimming lanes exercise. I think the only way it could be better for Ant if it had some analogy around cycling.
Justin:Right. Well, it's a cycling lane. Sorry to do it cycling. They'll pedal faster. I don't know.
Ant:I don't know. You're yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're staying in the bike lane and you get run over.
Justin:Yeah. That's it. There was a truck coming. Yeah. And do do you guys do something like that?
Justin:Definitely.
Fred:Yep. We do. We we we do. We internally, we have systems that obviously try to streamline what we're doing and where we getting focused. And even we are getting better and better at it, and we do this all the time.
Fred:But it is a tricky thing to do. And like you said, you didn't want to do that exercise at first, right? It felt counterintuitive Yeah. In in a lot of senses. And I think for a lot of creators, we have the same argument we come across as like, oh, these things stifle my creativity.
Justin:Yeah.
Fred:Right? But there is a point, though, that you have to figure out how to balance that creativity with scale.
Justin:Yeah. And it's interesting too. And this is where the the mindset of always be testing has really helped because as a creative person, there were videos I did not wanna make. But the business side of me was, fuck it. It's a test.
Justin:And the annoying bit was some of those videos went on to be the biggest videos on our channel. And so now I'm stuck in this place of these videos are working really well, but I didn't enjoy making them. But these ones over here, I did enjoy making them, but they're working nowhere near as well in terms of driving the business impact, reach, revenue, whatever. So then at least then we can we know. Alright.
Justin:Maybe there's a middle ground, or maybe we do one of these every now and then, and we focus on these more. Or at least you can you can choose at that point having that data done. But if I just wore my creator hat only, I never would have made some of those videos.
Ant:Yeah. That's a you know, a line I love is being comfortable with the discomfort, and creators early on are very comfortable with discomfort because you're building in public, and and you have to, right, to get anywhere. You gotta go. But then when you've got something to protect, it becomes a bit harder. And that's the same, you know, same with us.
Ant:Like, we've always are learning new skills, right, and and trying to drive creators to do that as well and trying to improve how we help creators do that. And you always you don't know until you go a lot of the time.
Justin:Yeah. And I think this where we are right now is interesting time with AI as well because it can be a really good tool to help you with this stuff even as a sounding board or as a mindset coach or something. Like, help it or or, you know, ask it to help you audit your time and to keep you on track, and to help you set these goals. And it might, even push you further than you might be comfortable with, which is what you need to do, your big, hairy, audacious goal, whatever they call it. You know, the scary goal.
Justin:You're like, if I reach that. But that's when all your limiting beliefs and all the bullshit stories in your head come in. So I like the idea of using AI for that stuff to help you just have another lens to look at this, especially if you are a solo creator and not in, you know, 30 k masterminds or whatever it is to be in the room with others doing this stuff. It's to it's it's it it might give you, you know, 80% of of what you would get from that.
Fred:You're talking about AI. Obviously, there's big shifts in that. And obviously it moves at such a lightning pace being built into workflows everywhere. But is there a party or workflow AI or otherwise that is so essential that if it didn't exist, everything else would fall over?
Justin:I think it would be really annoying if AI went away now because I wanna say we're reliant on it. We are using it a lot, and our speed to delivery, our speed to impact is much less. And so to me, the fun is in not having to do all the things like the amount of research and stuff that we were doing or the amount of time in the research that we were doing, even down to streamlining our video editing. Like, our whole channel is around helping people make their videos faster and easier, and I just geek out on the AI tools and tech side of things and and share that. And we've streamlined our editing so much that, yeah, it would be super annoying if that went away and we're back to manually editing stuff.
Justin:But the whole thing is it's really touching across every element of the business now. Just it's AI assisted, not AI first. I am 100% against the AI avatar, like fake human videos. If I see those or I hear an AI voice, I'm out. I wanna hear from a real human, how a real human did something, unless it's just general knowledge kind of stuff, in which case, okay.
Justin:It can't really be too wrong maybe, but I'd much rather hear how Ant built his business and all of this stuff. Like I wanna hear from an actual human. I think that piece is only gonna become more and more important.
Fred:And separately to AI, is there another system in your business that is crucial to everything else to run?
Justin:I think the communication piece. And I say that as a high level because there's different tools and things under that. But especially when you've got team, that communication is the most important piece. So we've used different tools. We still use ClickUp.
Justin:We use Todoist a lot to track things all the way through. We record every meeting. So we use Google Meet, and it's all auto recorded, auto transcribed. And just the communication piece in that alone that we're like, what did we talk about? What did we say we're gonna do on this this call?
Justin:So it all it all comes back to communication. And over the years, we've used so many different tools to project manage and whatever, and I think that piece is becoming easier. But also our team is becoming smaller. This is, like, the craziest thing. We've gone from a team of 14 to a team of four.
Justin:We had two full time video editors at one point. Now we've, we we've got one. But even then, it's like we're not he's not at capacity with how fast things are speeding up on the editing side. Yeah. So that's, yeah, obviously a shame on the human job side, but our time to impact, time to get content out.
Justin:And for people who don't have massive teams, this is the massive opportunity right now. Just quickly to
Ant:point out, I think, like, going from 14 to four is not downsizing the business or contracting the business. Right?
Justin:Like No. No. No. And this is a piece of that is over time, there were people that were resisting the change with AI coming in. Like we had full time copywriters and we had, like, oh, just, you know, some it was always you throw people at a problem.
Justin:Right? Like, we need to scale. We need more people. We need more hands on deck. And now it's really this doing this swimming lanes thing constantly.
Justin:It's like, well, do we even need to do that now? Like, we had someone that was that was helping us with YouTube comments. And I was like, do, like, do we need to? Is and and we actually stopped for for over a year, and nothing changed on the YouTube side. It's like, okay.
Justin:Maybe we don't need to prioritize that as much as we thought we did. So we had a lot of baggage from all the years that we've been doing this without stopping and reassessing. So that, to the earlier point with that swimming lanes thing, we're now doing that so much more and so much more religiously. And just looking at this is this business is a lifestyle business. We get to do this, not we have to do this.
Justin:And with that lens of if we get to do this, then what what are we choosing to do that's fun? So everything really comes through that filter. Do I want to do this, or do I have to do this? And if I have to do this, that's fine. But, like, is that in line with the business goal?
Justin:But the bigger goal is let's keep this fun and exciting, and what cool shit do we wanna do? And that really shapes the direction from there. And yeah. So along the way, there's been a lot of things that we've stopped doing. I mean, so we just didn't need the bigger team.
Fred:Yeah. I've heard a lot of successful creators say something similar to that. It's like we had bigger teams, and then we change it to have smaller teams doing the things we really wanted to do. Yeah. And I think a lot of people think scale or success is just bigger and better, but it's not always that way, is it?
Justin:No. I think scaling what? We could scale revenue. We could scale team. We could scale fun and excitement.
Justin:And so if I'm gonna pick one of those, and this is a lifestyle business, I'm picking the fun and excitement. And so we're just really now locked in on I know that Mike, he there's certain hours he works and certain he doesn't so that he can pick the kids up from school. I'm exactly the same. And, you know, we have the studio office space here, but no one's expected to be in here. You come in here if you want to be.
Justin:Like, it's what would be fun and exciting, and that flows through to the staff as well.
Fred:Yeah. Yeah, I remember my last business, we had 40 odd people and someone said like, you know, is this the business you really want? And I was like, not really. It's just feel like all I'm doing is people management, not doing the core stuff I really wanna do anymore.
Justin:Yeah. It's that crazy thing, right? And I was talking about this to someone the other day, and like, I have definitely reached the different points in my business where they've lost the fun. And like the first one was in the production company. I built this business that was on paper really, really good, but I didn't like the clients that I had.
Justin:Like, they weren't a fit. It was for chemical companies and mining companies and stuff. So the money was good, but the work sucked. And what was worse is that I built that. Like, it's not like a nine to five.
Justin:I was like, I quit. It's like, this is me. I wanted this, and I built it. So it was this full identity crisis thing. So I no wonder creators burn out, when they're they're hitting these things because they've they've done they've they've they've almost, like, locked themselves in with the golden handcuffs and earning a certain amount of money, or I need to make these videos only because no other videos work.
Justin:I mean, we can go down so many different pathways with this stuff, but this is where, the just the stop and the the recheck that you know, where are we going? What is fun? To me, the fun and excitement is the biggest North Star metric now, and we work backwards from that.
Ant:I love that. Hey. You've had to learn through experience of all of these things. Right? Good and bad and growing a team and sucking at it and then succeeding at it.
Ant:I'm using your you know, paraphrasing your No.
Justin:No. Definitely sucking at it.
Ant:Yes. If you had to start now, just you and you let's, you know, let's give you your brother because that's how it started. So, you know, that's fair.
Justin:He's the brains. I'm just the puppet. And so I just read a script off a teleprompter.
Ant:We've got the brains and and the meat puppet. Yeah. Like, how how would you go about it now if you're going from from zero?
Justin:Yeah. Starting from zero. And I think everyone should start a channel from this. Like, what would be fun and exciting? I'm gonna keep saying that, and it should be a drinking game or something.
Justin:Because if it is something that you're talking about, you're creating videos around, you're not gonna be struggling for motivation if it's something that you're geeking out on, something that you're enjoying. So pick your channel from that, which we did. Like, I still love video tech, editing, any of that stuff. So that was the core piece. Where we started to branch out to teaching YouTube strategy and stuff, it made sense for the business, but I didn't enjoy it anywhere near as much.
Justin:So starting out fun and excitement for sure. I would also be and we've spoken about this. Owning your own audience. You're building on borrowed land, like, on YouTube or any of these other platforms. Start growing things like your email list or your your DM contacts on, you know, Instagram is one that I see a lot of people doing now as well.
Justin:Your direct line of communication with your audience, with your potential clients' customers. That way, if something happened with an algorithm or something changed, your direct line of communication is still there. This is why we love email. So YouTube's the face of our business, but the email list is the business behind it. If our if our YouTube channel got deleted, yeah, it would suck.
Justin:But we could email 200,000 people and say, hey. Here's our new channel over here. I mean, hopefully, our partner manager will be able to get that sorted. But we have that direct line of communication. We can send an email, and it's not just only some people can get that.
Justin:Yeah. It might land in spam, but it's not like YouTube's, oh, we're not sending a notification out to that person because they've already received four others. Yeah.
Fred:And audience ownership, you know, and I bang on about this all the time is a core part of any creator being able to scale as an audience ownership strategy, being able to communicate directly with that audience. Sometimes I think we say that phrase so much. It drives us mad a little bit. But what's the risk that a creator in their growth fail to do that if they don't go with an audience ownership strategy? What are they leaving behind?
Justin:I think they're leaving so much on the table. It's like, I'm all for leaving like money on the table. We're all leaving money on the table somewhere, but I think the growth potential is huge. The fact that you, if you wanna branch out to a different platform that you could just email people and say, Hey, we just started a new TikTok. And you're, you're bringing, you're telling people that are choosing to be on that email list.
Justin:Like, they're not it's not a spamming thing. They're choosing to follow you there and and to to hear your updates or whatever, that you you've you're doing something else. Or you're, hey. We're gonna test this product. We're gonna test this messaging.
Justin:Or we just survey them. What do you guys want? What are your favorite videos? Like, your communication there, that relationship that you're building. And I I think this is where people don't see that.
Justin:The relationship that you can build on the email side is huge. And and this is that would be my number one thing, is to build an email list, off the back of your channel for sure. But also when you get to things like brands and sponsor deals, I used to work, helping TV shows and pro athletes get brand deals. Crazy that we don't do sponsored deals on our channel, but, this is that was my previous life as well. And the the first thing we would ask people was what you know, you've got these vanity metrics on YouTube or whatever, but what what's your email list?
Justin:And so for those of people that are listening that are doing brand deals and things, if you've got an email list as well for a lot of marketing companies, that's more important than the vanity metrics or the numbers of views that you're hitting because that's, again, the direct line of communication. Yeah. They could even run ads to people on that list. There's other ways that they can touch that. Yeah.
Fred:And you and you you saw this even recently at VidCon. Right? Where you go there and you ask the audience, hey. How many of you have an audience ownership strategy? How many people put up their hand?
Ant:Well, other than the three featured creators I had on stage with me who had
Justin:Had done working with you?
Fred:Yeah. For creators with us,
Ant:they all put their hands up. And then two others in the audience. I almost, like
Justin:For the four people in the room.
Fred:In the room. Yeah.
Ant:I had, like, an entire room of creators. And in a on on a session about building how to build a business that gets you off the hamster wheel. So it was everyone who's very interested in it. Yeah. One one person put their hand up with with and the rest sort of looked at me like I I was, saying something foreign.
Ant:And, like, yeah, the the evidence, every creator who has a a a good business has a good direct audience ownership strategy, and that's the number one converting platform for them whichever way they they they slice and dice that. I'm fascinated. Like, I've got some, you know, anecdotal, feedback from creators because we keep asking this, but I I'm fascinated to, like like, why do you think there's a reticence to put it in place?
Justin:When I first, hit this strategy, you know, I had a good friend of mine that was working with, Jeff Walker. So he was like the OG in the product launch formula space in email marketing, really. And he's like, yeah, email marketing. You gotta be growing your email list. I'm like, ugh.
Justin:My inbox is my to do list. I couldn't think of anything worse than having emails and whatever show up in there. Like, I don't wanna give out my email. And he's like, what are there anyone that you follow? Or is there anyone that you follow that you would wanna receive their emails?
Justin:I'm like, actually, you're right. I could think of a few. Like, so it was just enough to go, well, there are some people I would give mine to, so others would give this to me if we built this and if we added enough value to this. It's it's an exchange. Right?
Justin:So this is where we gotta have something of value to the viewer in that moment. They're watching a YouTube video. Hey. You want the deep dive on this? You can you can grab it here, enter your email, we'll send it to you.
Justin:Like, so there's a exchange. There's trust. There's there's a connection point that if they're saying yes to that, that you then can go and email them with whatever else related to that to help them even further. So this is the big the biggest way that we make money in our business is with affiliate marketing. And it's the email that's driving more affiliate sales than the YouTube videos.
Justin:And we still get a lot of clicks. I think we get 850 clicks per day on our YouTube channel in all of our descriptions across the channel. So 850 clicks on there, but we're getting more affiliate sales and conversions because we're adding value through the emails. So if someone grabs our editing guide, which is only mentioning mentioned on an editing video. So if you wanna dive deeper, you want this guide, follow along when you're editing, grab it here.
Justin:When they do that, we're able to not just promote them our latest videos. I can send them back to YouTube to watch other videos that I now know they're interested in editing. So you might also want this one around how to get the best music for your videos or how to create an animated title. So it it's not just about growing an email to bring in sponsors and stuff. It's the deeper relationship, the more value you can add to your viewers once they're on there.
Justin:And it's it's automated. It's like having the YouTube playlist where you can say, hey. You might like this one. You might like this one, but you're doing this in their time where they're not even choosing to be on YouTube. They open their email, and it's like, oh, hey.
Justin:Yeah. You're right. I am interested in how to color grade my videos. And it's it's just adding value. It's a good experience.
Justin:And I think no matter what platform or whatever it is, everything comes down to giving the viewer, the user, a good experience. And email is one that is so overlooked. But to your question of why most people don't do it is because it's it has been very hard. It's clunky. It takes time to register an email, a domain name to go spin up a landing page.
Justin:Like, who the fuck wants to build those things? I couldn't think of anything worse. But the time invested in making one of those, which now is much, much quicker, than it used to be, and to spin up a free PDF, use AI to help you. Get it to summarize your video, pull out the top points, and and offer the the summary as a free PDF download. Or there there's so many different opportunities and stuff with that.
Justin:I know that I'm bouncing around a lot, but it used to be hard. It's not hard anymore.
Ant:Yeah. There's there's an interesting signal I've picked up from a lot of mostly video creators we hang out with rather than YouTube creators. And they say, I don't have anything valuable to say on email, which is stunning because these are people who have successful YouTube channels, some producing five pieces of content a week, getting millions of views up to, you know, long form creators getting, you know, similar sort of numbers. And, like, you literally are creating content of value that is really, really hard in high quality video. But the signal I get, though, is that they value they see how valuable email is as well.
Ant:So they wanna treat it with that gravitas that it has, but then almost to to to call back to what we're talking about before is that the the fear, the risk, the experimentation of doing something new then is is the thing that's stopping them. Like, this is a like, it's clearly acknowledged this is the most valuable platform or incredibly valuable. I wanna come and show up and create so much value, but it's new and, like, and uncomfortable. So I think that's that's, what's holding a lot of folks back, but it's the return on it is, is immense. Right?
Ant:So.
Justin:Yeah. And this is also too where we all, as creators, assume that people watch all of our stuff. And why would I email it if it's already on the channel? Like I said, we're not just linking off to our latest and greatest, newest videos. We're driving traffic to older videos.
Justin:Some of our lead sources for our videos that like we made videos that we know if someone saw it, they would be interested. Or if we put it right in front of them, they'd be interested, but they're not really gonna be searching for it. So we have the ability to drive track to become a YouTube session starter from off YouTube, from their email, where they probably wouldn't have found this video. They didn't recognize that was a pain or problem for them. But now that we're surfacing it, we know that it's gonna help them, which then builds that deeper relationship.
Justin:So we're yeah. The the what do I put in the email? We're we're constantly testing that how often do I email? It's it's gotta be on your schedule. Like, don't put yourself on another hamster wheel.
Justin:There's some that I absolutely love that I'm receiving emails from, and there's once a month. So if I'm emailing once a month, that's not many in a year that I need to pull together. And could I get AI to help write summaries and come up with suggestions from the stuff that I'm already creating, like the videos you're talking about, if I'm doing five a week or whatever? Like, they got so much content. But the piece the unique piece, and this is the easiest piece I keep overlooking or kept overlooking was my thoughts and opinions.
Justin:We all have our own thoughts and opinions. That's your voice. And that's the piece that I undervalued for so long. Like and especially doing videos like best editing software for Mac. Like, well, there is no best, yet they're out, like, flagship videos that we put out.
Justin:And it's just my thoughts and opinions. And I had to get out of my way. It's like, you know what? This will help someone. If that helps them just to just to to take the next step in that journey, awesome.
Justin:Email's exactly the same. Just share your thoughts and opinions.
Fred:Is there an alternative to email if people don't wanna use that? Is there another way to own the audience?
Justin:There is. I'd say email's still the best and the most secure way if we're talking about owning your audience, but I am starting to see a lot more people move towards like Instagram DMs. So their call to action in the YouTube video is go send me a DM or comment whatever on my latest Instagram post, and it'll it can then be automated through ManyChat or one of those, message platforms, but you still don't own that. Like, if something happened then to that Instagram account, then that messaging pipeline or all the people you've messaging before disappear. So you've kind of segmented it, but it's not quite to the level of an email.
Justin:But in some audiences and some types of, like, demographics, for sure, like younger people are probably more likely to say jump across and send you a DM on Instagram than to sign up on email. So this is where it would always be a test. So it is interesting to see too that there does seem to be a lot more people pushing the Instagram messaging side. And, obviously, with YouTube bringing it back, it'd be really interesting if they actually do, if they're testing it.
Fred:That's an interesting aspect. Right? So, typically, a lot of people ask, hey. Why don't the platforms generally or video platforms let you email all your subscribers and message them? Right?
Fred:Mhmm. The the answer's they'd probably massively be massively abused by most people or or bad actors. But people will creators will go away and set up email lists or they'll set up direct chats. It is interesting that the platforms probably will respond and YouTube, like you were saying, might respond in in its own sense. Have what have you heard about that?
Justin:Well, yeah. I mean, back in the day, used to be able to message people on YouTube, right? You could, yeah. And I think it just got overwritten with spam and whatever. I don't think we had it for too long.
Justin:I didn't really, oh, our channel was so much smaller that we didn't really have a problem with it, but I know that they are testing it. We've got a few few members of ours that have access to it in a small test. So I just think though the way that YouTube rolls out those things, it could be a long way off. It might be something that doesn't actually come back. You guys are probably more up to that than me, but I think the the owning your audience piece, an email list, you could literally download a CSV, an Excel, whatever, and put it on a USB stick, and you can move that wherever you want.
Justin:I still like that piece, but I think with email filtering and AI coming in and AI helping respond and manage people's inboxes, we might start to see people more shift to platforms like Instagram for DM or YouTube. Maybe that's why they're bringing it back now. Mean, I even WhatsApp's making major changes right now, removing people's phone numbers, which I think is awesome. So how do I have an inbox of stuff that I wanna curate? Like, I'm I've got my friend's stuff in there, but also other stuff that I'm interested in without needing to go to too many other platforms.
Justin:If the younger people aren't using email I'm not saying they're not, but if they're not using it as much and they're using TikTok and Instagram DMs and stuff, then it would make sense that, yeah, that they're they're they're playing on the platforms and want the communications on the platforms that they're already on.
Ant:Yeah. I'll I'll I look forward to that day. You know, email, text message, WhatsApp, Insta DMs. I'm not on TikTok. But, you know, you're getting messages all over the shop.
Ant:If you're talking to Gen Z or Gen Alpha, it's definitely Insta DM. Yep. WhatsApp, the rest of the world other than North America, except some North Americans. Yeah. IMessage, email.
Ant:It's yeah. It's do do you think that's where it's gonna land is sort of like the WhatsApp super app, and then that becomes more powerful than email? Like
Justin:I personally think that there's gonna be that element of choice, but people will be able to build their own AI. Like I have mine that's pulling in a lot of those different funnels and I check one place so I can see what's in each of them. So I think that's, that's where it's gonna go is that you're gonna have your own AI that knows you, knows your voice, whatever knows the platforms that you use and can surface those things for you. And I think we're we're getting there quick.
Ant:Yeah. I'll be we might go off on on onto a a random side street here, but then if we've got, like, AI agents, for lack of a better word, reading and filtering communications, and then let's be honest, sending it, which is already happening on scale, and does that devalue it? Like, what are we like, what's the next level of human connection there? Like that we that we want?
Justin:Well, just just to jump with this, I think then that shows the growth of, like, live streams are really taking back off. And because it's, you can fake it, but it's hard to fake it. And people want time with other, like humans wanna connect with other humans. And I think that's with AI taking over and AI automating all of our stuff that we still want that in person or close to it, which is the the livestream stuff. So I still think that there is a place for the communication for when you're not online or to to automatically send out your your your summaries or your your deeper dive content and that kind of stuff.
Justin:So I still think that there's gonna be a place for that, and it will be fed off the back of people's live experiences, or, you know, still their content if they've built that trust and that they're not AI.
Fred:What is some practical tips a creator can put in place to start owning their audience?
Justin:I think email would be the first one that I'd be looking at. A lot of the tools like Kit offer a free creative plan where you can, you know, cost you absolutely nothing to set it up. They make it really easy for you to start capturing email addresses and to serve out, like, PDF guides or exclusive content. And this is where I I think it's starting small. Our highest converting one is still an editing guide that we made years ago right when we started, and we've only made minor tweaks and adjustments to it.
Justin:And in the guide where we're mentioning it, it's literally I'm talking through it in the video. So I I it still blows my mind, but I guess people in that, they want it's an experience piece for them. I'm making it easier for them to achieve the thing that they want in that. So I would look at with your type of content, what are people watching it for? What's the, like, the question behind the question?
Justin:What what are they asking you? What do they wanna, a a deep dive on that maybe they can't get from the video, or maybe you can save them from coming back, like a summary in their inbox or something like that. There there'll be some extra piece of value. Or if you liked this, you're gonna love the deeper dive, the extended version of this video that wouldn't have worked well on YouTube. Yeah.
Justin:Enter your email, and I'll send it to you. Like, you're already making the thing. Who wants the raw unedited thing? And then, like, that's been proven with podcasts, long form content, then a short form version, then a really short form version that can all work. So you might already be doing the things where it's easy for you to start to put some of these things in place and just offer an extended version or something or, additional thoughts or things that didn't make it in, and that's it.
Justin:People will your right people will want more from you, but it doesn't mean it needs to be more work from you. So tools like Kit and there's others as well that can help automate a lot of that.
Fred:You mentioned, some key elements of revenue diversification previously. One thing that probably surprised a lot of people was affiliates, right? How affiliates can be really good. You know, I used to think that affiliate deals were relatively, not silly, but they weren't significant because there was such small amounts of money.
Justin:Because you're probably thinking Amazon, right? Yeah. That's the main one people go to. Exactly. I was just saying, yeah.
Fred:Yeah. And I was talking to some really great creators. One was Sarah from Wholesale Ted, and she was like, no. Affiliates is is amazing if you know what you're doing with it. Is can you tell us a little bit more about affiliates?
Fred:And then on top of that, anything else that you might find is a surprising source of revenue?
Justin:Yeah. I think this with affiliates, it kinda does have a bad name because a lot of people were choosing products with, the highest commissions, highest payouts, and they'd promote those products to try and get those high commissions. So it became this sleazy, salesy. And look, there are still some people doing that, but that's not most people out there. I think if you're coming to it as with anything with integrity and you look at the tools, the products, the services, things that you use and that you would recommend to your closest friends and family if they were looking for something to fit that gap, that's a great place to come from.
Justin:And that's, again, then sharing your thoughts and opinions. So we don't just do while we have a video tech channel, some of our biggest affiliates are for things like Kit, like ActiveCampaign, like Bento. So email marketing software, where they're tools that we use to run our business, and I can speak to, I can help people set them up, those kinds of things, create content around it. And it's coming from the place of, I know that these are good recommendations. So if they sign up, then we could some of them are as high as, like, 30% recurring month on month of what people pay.
Justin:So it really doesn't take much. And this is where like, to to your point before, I was against affiliate marketing at the start. Like, why would I go through all the hoops that Amazon makes you jump through to sign up as an Amazon affiliate? And then I've every time I wanna list a product in a description, I've gotta go on to Amazon, find that thing, put it in. I might make a dollar.
Justin:I might make 50¢. I would still do that if you can because that scales over time. You only have to do the setup once. If you get rejected, you can sign up again. I think it's two weeks later.
Justin:And so it's really easy to do that. But Amazon for us isn't a big one, even though we talk about gear and tech and stuff. The big ones are these ones that are just outside the box, that that are the tools and the systems and things that we're using. So I would look at that.
Fred:Like software providers, is what you're talking about?
Justin:Yeah. Software providers are a big one. Books are another one. Like, even if, like get people onto Amazon. So Amazon, even though I've said it's a smaller one, it is an easier one to start with because there's so much on there.
Justin:They sell pretty much anything anywhere in the world, and there's tools that you can get that will help you get credit or the, the commissions globally as well. So our audience is US number one by far, but now we can get commissions from Australia too with the one link. We don't have to say, hey. Buy this in Australia or whatever. So it is easy to automate that stuff.
Justin:I mean, one of our biggest ones, from Amazon was someone clicked a $14 microphone, and they went on to spend about $30,000 on gym equipment. And we get the commission from this, because we got them on there. Like, we were the last tracked point before we got to Amazon. So they're happy to pay for this because you're essentially you're an ad for them to get to Amazon. And when you get there, it's their job to make sure people have whatever they have in the cart.
Justin:So that's why I like don't sleep on Amazon, but our biggest ones are are not that. They are the unique tools and things. And this is where we'll do a product roundup. And so we did one recently, best teleprompter apps. I think most of the five I think four of the five didn't have an affiliate program, but one of them did.
Justin:So we put an affiliate link in. It doesn't change the recommendation at all. And we've had others where we've mentioned products, there's been none in there. The videos go up for years, and then the the company would turn on an affiliate program. We can just update the link, and it would just turn on a new revenue source.
Justin:One of them we turned on like that was about $3,000 a month just started when they turned on that thing because we'd already got the traction. That video was still showing up in search and people were clicking on it. They could see that the traction was coming through. The traffic was coming through, and we could show them that that was from our link. So this is the kind of thing where you can also build better relationships with brands if you're creating the content first.
Justin:And you can show them how many link clicks or whatever, even if they don't have an affiliate program. I would start with adding value first. Create a product, create a video. We already love it. I already made the video.
Justin:Now let's do another one. Let's do something else. Let's work together to to to build a sponsorship package here.
Ant:Love it. Like, it's kind of unsexy. Oh, it's not cool.
Justin:I'm not cool. This is this is why
Ant:it works. No. I don't I mean, affiliates, it's just in that, like, I you know, it's not the thing that people are gonna jump up and down and bang on on a drum, but you, like, you hear those numbers and you hear, like, you you've got an asset that you've built, and you're leveraging it with with these really simple things to do that can be really impactful on the on the on the business. It's bloody it it's cool. That's that is cool.
Ant:That's brilliant. That's what people want. But it doesn't it's not like, you know, you've got your own matchup out or, you know, whatever going on. But it's like
Justin:I like that you're hands off It's like, I can recommend it, buy it, don't buy it. But this is the one that if you ask me in person that I would tell you to buy. And here's why. And it's done. I don't have to worry about customer service or whatever.
Justin:I know the product is good. And then if people buy it, we get paid then. I also don't have to be on someone else's schedule for, I need five videos by this time, and I gotta go through review process. Ugh. Like, that's to me see, I'm bitter about it.
Justin:I I I just like, this is a I get to, not I have to. And if I'm on someone else's calendar to have to create content for them, I'm not gonna enjoy it, and it becomes a chore. So I like the affiliate side, but it does take time to spin up. You want fast dollars in. It's one on one stuff where you're trading your time for money, or it's brand and sponsored deals.
Justin:So the answer could be both. And a good brand or sponsored deal might have a back end where you're getting an affiliate commission on the stuff that you're sending anyway. So it doesn't need to be, you know, one or the other.
Fred:Well, apart from affiliates, what else makes up your revenue mix?
Justin:Yeah. So we have three three things in our revenue mix. So we have our digital products. So we have a monthly membership, which is our YouTube channel plus. Think of it like a Patreon.
Justin:We put out, like, a deeper dive tutorials, master classes, training, and stuff in there. In the digital products category, we also now have a few of those on Skillshare. So we get an affiliate from Skillshare, but also people can sign up and watch our thing for free on there, like our our training and stuff. So it's the digital product side. We have YouTube ad revenue, and then we have affiliates.
Justin:Affiliates. But But with with the the affiliate side, that's that's the biggest. I wouldn't wanna go all in on one. Like, I know people that they create, like, a and they have done a Canva channel, and they go deep dive onto Canva or something like that. It's still you're building on someone else's like, what happens if Canva does something like CapCut did where it changed its terms of services and, pissed a lot of people off, said that they'd use your stuff everywhere.
Justin:Like, there's so many people boycotted CapCut because of that. Or they do what Canva did and switch off their affiliate program. That was a big one for us. That just overnight, they're like, you know what? We're not running this anymore.
Justin:They're not alone. Storyblocks was another big one that did that. So I'm not saying that to scare you. Sure. Like, use it.
Justin:Like and now I still recommend Storyblocks, I still create Canva videos. And there's no extra revenue there for me. But I still know that it helps people. There's ad revenue. There's links to join our email list where they could buy some other things on there.
Justin:So So it still grows the business, but it's a little frustrating when you've got, you know, thousands of dollars a month from these things and they switch off. But we're in over 80 different affiliate programs, for the tools and things that we recommend. So you don't notice those things as much when you've diversified as much.
Fred:You don't do brand deals?
Justin:No. Why? I say don't. We have done, but we have a very strong, filter around what would make it a hell yes from me versus a no. And I think everyone should have that, your nonnegotiables, in that I don't wanna be stuck doing creating content on someone else's schedule.
Justin:As I said, that to me would lose the fun. But there are companies where I'd be like, you know what? I'm gonna make this video anyway. And if we can work something out, let's do it. And so we have done some.
Justin:Descript was the most recent one. I create so much content around Descript because it's the tool that I'm geeking out on the most for the AI editing. It's so much for us. So I said to them, hey. Look.
Justin:We're done this much. I've already, like, an affiliate for you, and we've negotiated higher commissions with a lot of the companies we work for. So that's, you know, if if you there's no sponsor deals, you can still negotiate higher commissions. I said, look. We wanna do a series on this, and can we partner up?
Justin:But the spin that I put on it as well was what would make it valuable to the viewers. So instead of us just taking the sponsorship, it's like, cool. Let's negotiate a better deal for anyone that signs up using our link, and we'll still get the affiliate on the back end. And they they pushed back, and said, look. We want exclusivity.
Justin:You can't speak about any other tool or whatever. And most people do. Most sponsored deals will have this in there. I said, well, that's a no. Like, it's not about the money.
Justin:When we've done sponsored deals, let me round that out. They said no initially. I came back. I pushed back, and they're like, you know what? That's fine.
Justin:So we were able to work through it. So that was one that we did fairly recently that worked. But for anyone, if they wanna control what I'm saying, if they wanna control when I'm releasing something, that to me is a firm no. And And I totally get that other people would do it. We're not like most creators that are gonna say, yes, for $500 I'll do this.
Justin:Nothing wrong with that. It's just that there's been times where I would have rather pay the money to buy the thing myself with no obligation than to have to make a video that then has to go through review cycles and whatever. So I'll be very clear if you're looking at doing brands and sponsored deals, what makes it a win for you, what makes it not a win for you, and have that going into your negotiation.
Fred:Is there a source of revenue that, I mean, you've highlighted brand deals as a bit of an issue, but is there a source of revenue that on paper looked great, but didn't make any sense practically?
Justin:We're always trying different things and we, I guess I like the idea of with different products and things we've built, we're going the model of the sell it before you make it. So it's almost like not crowdsourcing, but you could say, we're going to do this. And if you get the right amount of people sign up, then you do it. If you don't, then you don't do it. There isn't really a one that I'd say don't do because it's different for everyone.
Justin:I've run one on one coaching and I loved it for the most part. And then I learned a lot in terms of who I want in there and how I wanna help people. And if I didn't do that, then I wouldn't know what I liked and what I didn't like about it. So this is where I'd say don't rule anything out, but there'll be some that are fun and easy. Like for me, affiliates, love.
Justin:But there and and the right one on one coaching consulting stuff. And there's others where it's like, you know what? I would pay to not do that thing, but you won't know until you do it. We're all different.
Fred:And if ad revenue, let's say YouTube ads or wherever you get your ad revenue from, turned off tomorrow, changed, how would your business be?
Justin:I think I'd cry myself to sleep a little bit. No, it's, it's again, one of those things where it's, it's one of three. So yeah, it'd suck. Wouldn't take down the business. It's, this is where we're now also diversifying into other businesses and stuff too.
Justin:So those are our three main for the Primal Video brand and company, the affiliates, the ad revenue, and the digital products. You'd have to take down all three for them to be, you know, something significant. Then, yeah, that's when I would be crying myself to sleep. Outside of that, if one of the three went, not a problem. And this is where we built this to be something that is diversified so that if something like a Canva or Storyblocks does stop paying their affiliates and you lose $10 a month or something, Is that a problem?
Justin:No. You know, it's just part of business. That's how it is. Again, you're building on good faith or whatever with a company. So this I I would recommend that instead of just people that only rely on ad revenue or only rely on, Amazon, and then you get kicked out of their affiliate program or whatever, which we've had good friends do that, and they've lost significant revenue from that.
Justin:So it's just diversifying. And the email piece makes that easier because you're in constant communication. So just to tie that back around to owning your audience, the email piece as the business behind the business, because we can direct people to where it's gotta go. Or you're constantly having people that are signing up that are going through automated email funnels designed around adding value. And in there, you can drive traffic back to your YouTube, but also to affiliate programs and things too, or other courses.
Justin:If you don't have the course, you don't have the next best video, send them to someone that does, and maybe you can work out a relationship from there until you've got your own one.
Fred:Love that. Always adding value.
Justin:Yeah.
Fred:I have a question I'm keen to ask. You've given a lot of good advice. In the course of being a creator, in the creator journey, what's the best bit of advice that you received for being a creator?
Justin:I think it would be the always be testing. And again, I know it sounds cliche, but there are so many videos, as I said, that I wouldn't have made if I wasn't in that mindset. And the always be testing isn't just, let's just do anything. It's let's do it and let's track it. And let's give it a good go.
Justin:Not just create one, let's create a few so we can really test this thing and really look at the numbers. It's not going off gut feel. It's going off actual data, what's actually happening. As much as my gut wants to kick in and make something else, we'll still track it because you can speculate. You can bounce stuff around.
Justin:Like, AB split testing thumbnails, I think, is a great example of that. I never picked the winner. The one that I think is the nicest, prettiest looking thumbnail is never the one that is the one that drives the most traffic through. So what if there's something that you're not testing or not trying across your entire business, different revenue models, different whatever, that you're just got your blinders on thinking this is it. This is perfect.
Justin:And like people come to me all the time, Justin, my channel's amazing. I do I've got the best videos. My thumbnail images are the best out there. They're perfect and the best title, but my channel's not growing. Like, the sad reality is if you were doing those things right, it would be working.
Justin:So be open to test because there's always another level. Yeah.
Fred:Great. And before we go, one final thing. We've talked about audience ownership. We've talked about how important that is. A lot of people are like, I think I'd like to do this.
Fred:Your last bit of advice, if they were to start, what's one thing they could do right now to start that journey towards audience ownership?
Justin:The first thing I would do is I would register for one of the email platform things, something like a kit. I'm not sponsored. This is one that I know that we do recommend. And I know they've got a free creative plan. Take that first step because it's not as big of a deal.
Justin:You'll see once you get into whatever platform it is, they'll step you through the process. But just create one, just start. Like the first step would be creating an account with one of those. It's not gonna cost you anything. Worst case, you do nothing beyond that.
Justin:But at least you've started down that path.
Fred:Amazing. Justin, thanks so much for joining us today.
Justin:Thank you very much for having me back.