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Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and here with me again for the conclusion of our discussion on mental performance in military aviation is Zoran Stojkovic, a mental performance and leadership consultant and certified mental performance consultant who has worked with RCAF pilot trainees. Zoran, thanks once again for joining us here today. The first episode came out today, and it seems like people really enjoyed it.
Bryan:I'm excited to chat with you again.
Zoran:Yeah. Same here. Look forward to diving into some of these topics.
Bryan:Mhmm. So listeners can check out part one to hear about Zoran's career in high performance sport, his work with student pilots in Moose Jaw, and his time supporting RCAF aircrew in Texas. Today, we're going to take you on what might be the most important journey we've done yet, at least if you are or want to be a pilot in the RCAF. We're going to follow a student pilot through the pressure of flight training from preparing for a checkride to handling a mistake in the air and getting the most out of the debrief. We'll also look at what aviation can learn from sport and the habits students, athletes, and professionals can start building now.
Bryan:So let's start by talking about what pressure actually does. Let's start with a student who knows the material cold and then goes blank with an examiner beside them. What's happening there?
Zoran:What happens there is, classic performance anxiety. So the brain perceives the situation as a threat. For whatever reason, whether it's a real threat or perceived, it actually doesn't matter. It regardless sets off a cascade of effects in the body that they're on a psychosomatic level, so mind and body. After perceiving the situation as a threat, the brain starts to become sympathetically activated essentially.
Zoran:So I'm going to get into the nerdy neurotransmitters and chemicals here for a sec. But, what ends up happening is the brain ends up secreting cortisol and adrenaline. Secreting meaning pushing them all throughout the bloodstream from the adrenal glands above the kidneys. And so that goes all throughout the bloodstream. And those chemicals are made, they're there for a reason evolutionarily.
Zoran:So they set off cascade of effects, and some of the effects link to that very situation you're talking about. So that what the student is noticing is they're forgetting the information. Like, they're essentially... It's a feeling of choking, right? Like, it's like an eight mile when Eminem steps on stage for the first time and he can't respond.
Zoran:Like, that's performance anxiety, right? And they showed that really, really well in pre performance anxiety and things like that. And so what's happening to the student is these chemicals are going all throughout their body. It's spiking their heart rate, which is which is really uncomfortable. When the heart rate goes above 150 beats per minute, in special ops, they essentially call that condition black.
Zoran:And condition black is you get tunnel vision. So you start to you can get tunnel vision, right, even in the exam room. You start to not be able to comprehend things as well. You start to your fine motor control goes down your cognition, you're the way you're explaining something actually goes down, which is problematic. If you're going blank during the test, you're in the seat of a plane and you have an examiner beside you or behind you, right, in the plane, very problematic.
Zoran:So your handling is going to be off, you're not going to be able to trim the plane as well, you're not going to be able to stick those landings and hit whatever ATC is telling you to do. There's a lot going on, right? And in the pilot world, what I've heard is, you know, your bucket is full, but like this is explaining why the bucket is full. It's because the body's becoming too sympathetically activated. Now too much parasympathetic activation, so it's a continuum, too much parasympathetic activation is actually not good in the plane either.
Zoran:So you need you kind of need the sweet spot, not too hot, not too cold, you need the sweet spot. And what I found, because I've spent a lot having these kinds of conversations, we measure these kinds of conversations with biofeedback, through personal reflection with pilots, and we would actually map it out. And we'd map out the points at which their activation levels are actually too high. So that problem happening in the plane might actually be starting the night before or in the briefing room when the instructor walks in. And so for me, that's, that's where we work on, we map things backward.
Zoran:And we go, when you have that examiner sitting next to you, what do we want your ideal performance state to be? What do we want your activations level levels to be? What do you want to be thinking about? What do you want to have top of mind? What do you want to be doing with your hands and feet?
Zoran:And we actually use a combination of strategies that I'm going to talk about, maybe a little bit later. But that's what's happening to the student. Like it's, it's this whole chaos happening internally. And the chaos is actually evolutionarily designed to protect us, right? You know, back ten thousand years ago, you hear the rustle in the bush, you want to assume that's a saber toothed tiger or wolf, depending on where your ancestors may have been from.
Zoran:That's a great assumption to have. And then that kicks off a cascade of effects that I've talked about. And if it's not, the system just kind of goes down. The issue in the plane is you're being examined like you got to perform on the spot. And you got to be able to cage that system and almost have like a red page for it.
Zoran:Right?
Bryan:Right. And even if it's not, let's say, real world, you get past the tests and now you're performing under pressure. It's not even about passing a test anymore. Now it's about, you know, succeeding in a mission or
Zoran:Yeah.
Bryan:Saving someone's life if you're doing search and rescue or keeping everyone alive on the plane or... Like, that pressure doesn't go away.
Zoran:A 100%. And I've I've... I was on another podcast last year, and we're a combo of a SAR rescue pilot from, from The UK and, and a surgeon from The States. And they lead this podcast. And we're talking about this very thing happening in the plane, where maybe you're trying to steady steady the helicopter for somebody to actually climb down and rescue somebody or whatever.
Zoran:So yeah, there's it's it has massive applications. And I'm really, I really think this thing needs more investment. Like Mhmm. And a lot of, you know, air forces and armed forces around the world are are actually investing in this, the ones that are ahead of the curve anyways. Right?
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. I think we're gonna look back in, like, five years and be like, how is this not standard practice?
Zoran:Yeah. And I mean, even in the Royal Canadian Air Force, like, mental performance coaching since 2018 is when it was first trial. Mhmm. So it hasn't been around that long. It's like a pretty novel program, all things considered, but I I do think it's a really important program.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree. So we're talking about this student. How is preparing that student different from when you're preparing an athlete for an Olympic final, or or is it different? Is it is it mostly the same with with that level of pressure to perform, or how does that compare?
Zoran:So 90% of it is similar. 90% of it is working with the human underneath the uniform, like I like I said a couple of times in episode one. And and so it's who's the human underneath the uniform? People are people everywhere. It's just the craft is different.
Zoran:And so what that means is that's the other 10%. It's figuring out how to integrate preparation, including mental preparation into their craft. Right? And so, their craft being flying or for an Olympian, it's learning how to perform at that stage. And so they're also the comp...
Zoran:There's a lot of commonalities. Right? They're both learning. They're both training, they both have motivation, they both have a nervous system, like I'd say it's even 95% similar. The difference is in applying the skills, and the mental and physical demands of the context.
Zoran:There's a lot of similarity, right? They're each side is dealing with a system, ecosystem of support, they're dealing with instructors, coaches, but pressure comes up in very similar ways. Now, person to person, it might be different. Like, I'd say, you probably see more, differences within two pilots and maybe comparing a pilot to an athlete. Right?
Zoran:Because their pressure signature might be very similar. And and so how they handle pressure might be... There might be similar strategies they use.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:Again, there's no no catch all.
Bryan:So can someone perform well while still feeling nervous, or do they need to feel confident first? Like, if you go into something and you're nervous, are you already sunk, or how does that work?
Zoran:The answer is it depends.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:So nerve... Because I put nervousness on a scale of one to 10. Right? If your nerves are at a level 10 and you're, like, you're pressing the PCL forward to take off.
Bryan:And for listeners, the PCL is the power control lever on the Harvard two. It's essentially the throttle.
Zoran:That's problematic because now you don't have a lot of time and space to actually reset, especially if you haven't done the mental preparation before and you don't have the strategies that you know have worked for you before. I'd say performing with nerves is fully normal and natural. Nerves are... They're part of the human condition. If...
Zoran:When we're doing things that we care about, and potentially things that scare us where there's fear of failure. What we want to do is really get get all the butterflies to fly information. Right? We get the butterflies inside of us. Here's a little fun fact for listeners.
Zoran:Why do butterflies happen? Well, they actually happen because that's the moment and we feel it in our stomach. One of the things that happens when we're under a lot of pressure, meaning we're too much sympathetically activated, there's a threshold where the body becomes sympathetically activated, meaning fight or flight. The feeling of the butterflies is the the moment that essentially the arteries and the veins start to constrict, like the ones that go into visceral organs start to constrict. Oh.
Zoran:Because we don't we don't need blood flow to that area. The body's like, I need to survive. Like, there's a there's a threat. There's a predator. There's something where I gotta dial in.
Zoran:Right? That's why we also get tunnel vision. You're you're, like, located on something, ignoring everything else. It's like, what is the threat? So that's why we feel the butterflies.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Zoran:So, I mean, I think it's a very normal feeling, but, crippling performance anxiety is not helpful. What actually makes a big difference is is how how we perceive that that feeling and those symptoms that happen in the body, body and the mind. If we perceive those symptoms as helpful, they will enhance performance. If we perceive the symptoms as not helpful, and as signs that we're not ready, we're not prepared, this is not normal, this isn't good, then they're actually going to hinder performance. That's what studies have found.
Zoran:And so what I work a lot on is accepting that state, and not always trying to change it. And because some athletes are actually used to feeling nervous, and then they don't feel nervous, and they underperform. But what I didn't, it didn't feel right. And I'm like, no, no, like, that's okay. Regardless of how you feeling, perceive it as the right state.
Zoran:And for sure, there's an element of pre performance preparation, pre performance routines of what you do before before you get into a plane, what athletes do before they step out onto a major court. And that's very personal. Right? And I've I've seen everything. I've seen everything from meditation, prayer, reading a specific book, listening to a playlist, a specific type of warm up or game, calling a specific person in their life.
Zoran:Right? The pre performance jitters, like some people need to go to the bathroom, right, they feel it. And, and so I think just accepting that noticing becoming aware of that, that state, and for sure, using some strategies like breathing to lower it, but I don't think it's helpful to make it go away. Because those nerves can actually, it's excitement. Like if we reframe it as excitement, it's like, I'm actually excited to fly.
Zoran:Yeah, oh my god, it is a test. But I'm excited that I get to go out and challenge myself and show myself that I've done this really great work. So there's a lot that goes into it, how we perceive those nerves. But ultimately, it's, it is an individual pressure signal.
Bryan:That's really interesting talking about kind of like how we perceive it. And I think most people have had those moments where those nerves make them feel like they... That negative slide begins. It's like that self feeding cycle of like, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous. This is a bad sign.
Bryan:I'm not ready. And then it just gets worse. And then, you know, you have that... Like you said, I like the other side of that coin though, where you're... Well, I'm gonna go out and challenge myself today.
Bryan:I'm gonna prove what I can do. And definitely your attitude, your perception, your thoughts, like, they shape so much about how you feel and how things are gonna go.
Zoran:They do. Yeah. It's... I think perception is everything. It's the it's the window we view the world through.
Zoran:Right? But our perception also isn't... Like, I'm looking out a window right now. If I thought this was the world, that would be so off. The world is massive, just like our brain and our our own inner world is massive.
Zoran:So also being aware that there's certain things that influence our perception, the content we consume, who we hang out with, the mood we're in, the time of day, how hungry we are, how much we've slept, all those factors really influence, our perception. So knowing when knowing when it's accurate and when we're actually watching the right channel Mhmm. Versus having the remote in our hand to change channels and to go, yeah, that's... I I don't wanna be watching that channel.
Bryan:Yeah. It's kinda like things you learn in cognitive behavioral therapy where it's like, okay, is that thought accurate? Like, do I need to challenge that thought? Oh, I'm I'm super nervous. I'm not ready.
Bryan:Okay. Hang on. Is that an accurate thought? Like Mhmm. Typically by the time you're going into a test, I always used to tell, like, fellow students and eventually people I was mentoring, like, when you do a test, the the levels required are exactly the same as the pretest.
Bryan:So you've already passed the test. You're just going out and proving you can be consistent. So you're... You are prepared. Like, the RCAF does not Yeah.
Bryan:Send you to tests unprepared. We just... They'll they'll fail you on the pretest if you're not ready and then you'll get extra training and then you'll you'll do it.
Zoran:There... There's something to flying in front of a snapper standards officer. Like, there's... I I feel like that just adds pressure in and of itself because It does. It does.
Zoran:Students build it up, and it's also this dichotomy that I noticed of, like, the instructors are really trying to prep you according to the standard, and the standards officers are there to evaluate you and to put that check and that standard like this person has mastered this. So it's like, there also is a very real experience of not having flown with that person. Certain standards officers like being more lenient versus more harsh on marking. Right? And it's the human aspect of it.
Bryan:For sure. So let's get into this flight routine. So I'm the student. My checkride is tomorrow, and I'm still studying late into the night. How would you help me decide when to stop?
Zoran:Sleep is the single biggest performance enabler. So if you're sacrificing sleep to cram more content, that's a broken model. Okay. So, to be able to sleep more soundly, and actually stop studying, because like studying more isn't necessarily going to make you perform better, I'd get the student to reflect on all the prep they've done so far. And I call these performance receipts.
Zoran:That's why keeping a journal is hugely helpful, right? Where you not only you have the prog card, for sure, the progress card, but you've got your own notes of what you've done well to... In each flight and what you need to improve, and then you you work on that. And so so that evidence goes a long way. And and especially in situations like that where you're, oh, do I keep studying?
Zoran:Do I not know? It's like, here's all the work I've done. And if you really feel if you've got a deep conviction that you've done really good work from, like, scanning the past whatever number of months, great. You're gonna be able to potentially sleep more soundly. Right?
Zoran:Mhmm. However, what I also will say is a massive amount of gold medals are won on a poor night's sleep, where the athlete potentially doesn't sleep at all Mhmm. Yet they won a gold medal. Mhmm. And so it's it's more so how your sleep's been leading up to that flight and not so much the night before.
Bryan:Yeah. Like sleep debt. Have you incurred a bunch of sleep debt or are you ahead on that?
Zoran:The workload plays into that recovery. Like, are you recovering during the day? Are you... Or are you just like go go go? Like, are you hitting the gym?
Zoran:Are you playing the sport you love? Are you spending time with family? Like, either through talking to them on the phone? Are you are you going out for wings on a Wednesday night? Like, these things are massive, massive enablers of performance.
Zoran:Right? Yep. Sleep included.
Bryan:Yeah. And I would say to, like, students who are listening right now and they're like, holy crap. I I can't get to sleep. Like, my my test is tomorrow and I can't sleep, which I've been there so many times. It was a huge issue that I suffered from was sleep anxiety.
Bryan:I will say from personal experience, many, many times, I could not sleep before a test And I I still did really well. Like, you know it. Your body is, you know, not gonna just completely shut down. And as Zoran was saying, like, it's not like every single day you're not sleeping. So, you know, yes, not ideal to not be sleeping the night before a test, but it's not also a world ender.
Zoran:And ideally, it's not... I know they typically don't do tests in the in the first wave. So, I mean, ideally, you can you can have some time in the morning to to do that final prep and the final touches.
Bryan:But Mhmm.
Zoran:Yeah. I'd say if it's if it's a later flight, like in the afternoon, potentially doing a little a little power nap, ten minutes, fifteen minutes. You're not taking a two hour nap where you're feeling groggy and tired, but like ten, fifteen, twenty minutes. Sweet. Close the eyes.
Zoran:Moose Jaw actually has this relaxation room. It's a really good space to just like go and detach before flights or after flights. And that wasn't around... I don't know when the last time you've been there is, but that wasn't around when... Like, two years ago is when we when we put it in.
Bryan:I haven't seen that for sure. We had nothing like that in... When I was there. That's for sure. So let's say you've you've gotten that sleep, you're up the next day, what does a useful preflight mental routine look like, and how short can we make that?
Zoran:I go back and forth on this one, and I think the answer is it depends on the person. So I'll explain why. Pretty early on in in the in the flight world, I was doing the the mental performance piece, and I presented on pre flight routines and the importance and some of the things pilots could do. And people were... I was getting people to, like, map out their pre flight routine.
Zoran:Right?
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:A bunch of pilots in a classroom. They're eager. They're excited. They're engaged. And I get one of them that comes back to, he's a jet pilot now, gets, comes comes to the office, and he's like, hey, can I talk to you about the session?
Zoran:And I'm like, sure. He's like, well, I'm not a big believer in the big drawn out routine. Like, why do I need to make it an hour or hour and a half? And some people were doing like a lot of things. And he really challenged me on that.
Zoran:And I was like, you don't. He's like, no, I want... Like, I'm good. Like, I know I've just prepped for the flight, and I I do, like, a ten minute, like, this, that, this, that. And he was, like, a top student.
Zoran:Mhmm. I'm like, dude, amazing. So for that student, that worked. But for for somebody else, they need to do breathing, and they need to do their music, and they need to do all sorts of things. Mhmm.
Zoran:There was a couple of things that I could plug into that. And I had this great, preflight routine resource that I made for students when I was there, and it's probably still kicking around somewhere. There... There's a lot that students could do or or even pilots, like operational pilots could do in their in their routine. Although operational pilots are probably very...
Zoran:They know exactly what they need. I'd say breathing is a big one. If somebody is finding themselves a bit scatterbrained, feeling that... Some of those pressure signals that I talked about earlier with the tightness in the chest and jitteriness in the stomach, taking a moment to understand and think about all of the preparation you've done for that flight as massive. Again, that's where those performance receipts come in.
Zoran:And I'd say the third thing is clarity of mind about the upcoming mission. And that happens through really good preparation. And I know the system and the frameworks in place, in the RCAF are really top notch from what I've seen. But I think students can also overwhelm themselves. If they...
Zoran:If if they've got too many... They got, like, all their prod cards and all the all the coaching cues the instructors have given them, you're gonna be overwhelmed. It's like, okay, what are... Like almost having an index card, like a three by three by five inch, index card of... Or even in their in their in their kneeboard or somewhere on the iPad, like, what are the three to five cues that I wanna focus on in this flight?
Zoran:Technically, it's like, okay. Relax on the stick and and whatever else. Like, I don't fly a plane. You you... You'd know some better ones, but I'd say those are the the the big things.
Zoran:I'd say also keeping things in perspective. Just understanding that, again, we give importance to the ones that that are that are, you know, the tests or the pretests. But every flight is there as an opportunity to learn. So I think going in with that mindset and not seeing it as a threat and not seeing it as a, god, I got that instructor. It's more of a, you know what, I can handle this, I will handle this.
Zoran:I've handled this in other contexts. Like, was a lot of people I was working with who played hockey at a good level, who played soccer at a high level, different sports, or like the performing arts or worked in some really amazing places before coming to the RCAF. And, and so it's like, what are those experiences that you're bringing into this? Like you've done tough things, like you've been resilient. And let's let's pull on that.
Zoran:Let's let's kinda warm up the brain with some of those examples so that you're going in with a really strong self belief.
Bryan:You were in a skies magazine where you were talking about visualization and chair flying. So just briefly, how do you practice those well instead of just imagining a perfect flight? Good question. The...
Zoran:So I think everybody listening to the podcast is gonna know what what chair flying is. Right? It's it's sitting down to to prepare for your mission, and you're seeing... You're doing mental rehearsal, essentially. You're mentally preparing yourself for what you're gonna do.
Zoran:Maybe you're talking out some of the checks. I've seen people even talk out, like, comms with ATC. For me, imagery is essentially using all of our senses, all the five senses to create a really vivid internal experience, but combining those senses with the physiological state we're gonna be in, what we're gonna be feeling. And I say keeping those careflying practice sessions to fifteen minutes tops. The brain just seems to lose focus and tap out.
Zoran:Don't do a whole mission. You don't need to do that. Right? Doing it in real time is helpful. Like, I know it is super cool how the snowbirds...
Zoran:Like in those classic briefs that that everybody's seen online, they do the, you know, like, smoke up one, two, three, four, like they... And they do their commands and they do their their mental rehearsal so quickly. But they're obviously highly skilled pilots. For somebody who's learning how to fly, it's a lot more beneficial to go at real time, but to pick the parts of the mission or the maneuvers they're going to focus on. And so a really good process for this is, and I don't know if I have this resource online, but it's a resource I work on with a lot of clients.
Zoran:And if anybody wants the resource, feel free to reach out, and I'd be happy to send it. But it's like a visualization template where it guides you through the different aspects to creating your own script. So the really good way to do it is to create a script. But the story you want to write in that script is a combo of of what you're feeling, see, hearing, What's the time of day? Like, it's got to be very specific.
Zoran:Who's in the cockpit behind you or beside you, depending on what kind of airframe you're flying. And so that ends up being really helpful, because you're going to write this story, not of everything going well and perfectly. What builds confidence is imagining when when stuff doesn't go well. So you're not imagining poor technique, but you're imagining the challenging situations you've had or you anticipate having where maybe something unexpected happens. Imagining that feeling and then imagining performing in spite of that feeling.
Zoran:So that thing is happening. My heart rate's gonna spike. Some of the pressure signals start to kick in, but I'm gonna re cage. I can handle it. And then you imagine yourself handling it in real time and, like, what you do with the stick and the and the commands and the PCL and all that stuff.
Zoran:So that's how I I love to to do chair flying. And what I've... What I do for pro athletes and any client that works with me, I've also done this for pilots is I'll guide them through the process of coming up with that script. And then I'll record it for them. And then all they do is when they're sitting in a wooden cockpit or whatever, sometimes it's broom handle in hand and trying to recreate that feeling, they can then just close their eyes and follow along with the guided cues of creating those images.
Zoran:That said, there's a percentage of the population that can't visualize. So aphantasia is where, you close your eyelids and you just see black, like you just see the eyelids and the light kinda coming through them. So for those people, I'd say mental rehearsal, like talking through it is still helpful. Like talking through the steps of a mission or, having the the kind of the flight map in front of you and kind of tracing things with your finger and imagining what the plane was gonna do or using those model planes that they have in the classrooms. All that stuff is massive.
Zoran:Let me ask you, what what did you do when you were a student to to chair fly?
Bryan:I think I did some of the stuff that you're talking about. I definitely chair flew basically every day, especially at first. A big part of my routine was to... When I was learning a new maneuver, first, I would read the book until I knew the numbers. And then I would go through the procedure mentally over and over again in my head, like sitting in a chair in front of a poster of the cockpit until I could, in my head, do the steps naturally.
Bryan:And then I kind of would stop so that I didn't teach myself bad habits. And then, like, before a test or something, I might go a little more in-depth where I would start by walking out to the plane, I would pre flight the plane, you know, taxi. I would go... Kind of go through the whole mission but it wasn't like in real time. It would be like, okay, next I'd do this.
Bryan:And then I'd run through like, okay, I'm gonna do a couple circuits and just just... And I would sit there and kind of like lean for the turns and all that stuff. Mhmm. But I'm I'm more visualizing like what comes next, procedural stuff. What's the next thing I gotta think about?
Bryan:Where am I looking? Like, things like that.
Zoran:Yeah. It's... I'd say the the the main principles to stick to are don't make it longer than fifteen minutes and imagine a couple of scenarios that are challenging and yourself overcoming them.
Bryan:Right? And if you go too in-depth every time, like, it's gonna become an exhausting process that you don't look forward to. Yep. For me, it's like a quick refresher. It's like every day Yep.
Bryan:When I was at Moose Jaw, every single day, I would go through my Red Pages. Well, obviously, at first, you're doing it a ton. And then once I knew them, I would still review them once a day. And then so like there's a few little things like this is what I'm gonna review. I'm gonna...
Bryan:Okay. The one thing on the flight maybe that I'm worried that I don't know enough, I'm gonna review that. Like... But if you... If every day you're spending like an hour plus doing this, like it'll just become an exhausting thing that you don't want to do.
Zoran:And not letting the brain imagine the the bad scenarios because then we're programming those into the brain. Like, those pathways get stronger and it actually makes that more likely.
Bryan:Well, it's like when you're golfing and there's a big water hazard in front of you and you're like, oh, I really don't wanna hit the ball in there. Like, I always hit the ball in the water and then you hit the ball in the water.
Zoran:The last time I played with my friends, I actually made it over the water.
Bryan:I was the only So now you know you can trust this guy. He's legit. Yeah. So you were talking about rehearsing some, like, more stressful moments as well. I wonder if that dovetails kind of into...
Bryan:You did a built for pressure episode on the perfect plan when you adapt when things change. So how do I build a routine that still works when the schedule falls apart or the mission changes?
Zoran:The quicker you accept it, the quicker you can move on. And one framework I like to teach athletes is something a colleague from The States introduced to me, and it's the learn, burn, return.
Bryan:And
Zoran:so learn, burn, return is you learn what happened. Right? It's not your mistake. Like, is it with your control? That's the learn piece.
Zoran:And you can, like, point to the temples if you wanna, like, add a physical action to it. Burn is is the snap of a finger. Right? You burn it. The schedule changed.
Zoran:It's outside of my control. It sucks. Like, you're not gonna try to pretty it up. It does suck. I prepped for it.
Zoran:I woke up early. The schedule changed. Whatever. Burn it. Be done with it.
Zoran:The quicker you're done with it, the quicker you're wasting mental energy on something that happened in the past. And then return is what's coming up next? Let's return to the present moment. Can I be where my feet are? Can I be here in the moment preparing for the next thing?
Zoran:So... And that's... Return is like hands on hips, typically. Right? So learn.
Zoran:It's like learn, burn, return. And and so part of the learning, again, is what's the learning that I've had that's prepared me for that mission when I have it tomorrow? Mhmm. Right? Like, that's not lost.
Zoran:You've just prepped. What... Where it gets challenging is when missions get canceled a lot. Mhmm. And I've also seen that where people get, it's like five or six times just bad luck playing...
Zoran:The planes are getting older and stuff like that. And so, yeah, that that becomes a grind, and you really gotta be disciplined with that. I think in those situations, always having having somebody you can talk to. Mhmm. Like a trusted colleague or or instructor that that that somebody can talk to.
Zoran:Yeah. How did you deal with it? Like, was that a common pain point for pilots? Or
Bryan:I think when I was in the aircraft... You know, that was fourteen years ago. Fifteen. Fifteen years ago. Almost sixteen.
Bryan:Holy cow. And, you know, the aircraft were sixteen years newer. So the aircraft serviceability was very, very good. You know, the really the worst thing that would happen would be like weather or something extraordinary would happen maybe, but it wasn't a huge thing. I think it was more later in my career when I had to learn to pivot more.
Bryan:And honestly, I found it hard. Like, I've always found like big changes in what I expect challenging. I will say more so in my personal life because part of being a pilot is pivoting and thinking what... About what comes next and what you do now and, you know, things are always changing.
Zoran:It's cognitive flexibility. Right? I mean, having the cognitive flexibility to notice what's happening, to actually notice the experience, to to to notice the suck, and to the cognitive flexibility to move on. Right? It's can you learn, burn, and return to what matters right now?
Zoran:Right? Am I... Is it useful for me to spend a lot of energy thinking about something I don't control? The thing I'm thinking about, how much of it... Is it a 100% within my control?
Zoran:And if it isn't, get out of that. Change the channel. Right? Go. Like, you you have an opportunity to do something.
Zoran:What's the opportunity here? Gonna go for a workout or I'm gonna go grab a coffee with a colleague or or call call my family, whatever.
Bryan:I like that. What's the opportunity here? That's a cool phrase when when something unexpected happens. I like that for sure. So we talked about your perfect plan.
Bryan:Another thing that your Kizo resources include is performance cues. What would a useful cue sound like for a student who keeps telling themselves, don't screw this up? Because that's essentially a form of negative self talk. You're looking at it from a negative perspective versus kind of boosting yourself up. So what would something actually useful sound like?
Zoran:It's the classic approach versus avoidance conversation. So that's self talk that's framed in an avoidance kind of way. Mhmm. So what do I wanna avoid? Right?
Zoran:Don't hit the golf ball in the water. It's more likely to be gravitating towards the water. Why? Because your eyes are also looking at it. Where the eyes go, the body follows.
Zoran:And also where the mind goes, the energy flows. So if I'm activating a circuit in my brain that is associated with screwing this up, that's the circuit that's gonna get a lot of activity. And those wires are going to get stronger. It's going to be easier to get into that circuit and that part of the brain and thoughts when I'm performing. But what if instead, instead of saying don't screw this up, what if we said, I'm gonna do my best or or I've got this or I'm gonna succeed?
Zoran:And that... I mean, those sound very generic. In terms of performance cues, I think the key thing is having something that's authentic to you as the person. You know, I I see these performance, like, cue cards and a lot of products online. I'm not a fan.
Zoran:And I'm not a fan because, they're generic. Somebody made them. You have to go through the process of coming up to the... With these for yourself. And so these can be for anything.
Zoran:Right? From my... I've worked with business guys who who make this for business. I've worked with pro athletes who make this for for themselves or military pilots. And so in in the military pilot space, you're reprogramming your self talk consciously, and you're choosing what you what you think.
Zoran:Coming up, what I'd say is a good exercise, is is coming up with six to eight different statements starting with I or you depending on how you like to self talk to yourself. And and really boiling it down to the six or eight things that you... Like, your ideal performance state. What describes your ideal performance state? And what I often hear is I'm I'm locked in.
Zoran:I'm dialed. I'm confident. I'm present. Right? Those are great words for anybody to say, but they do have to come from you, and and you do have to to take the time to surface those.
Zoran:I'm energetic and and capable and calm. I've done the work. So they start with I. They're in the present moment. They they speak to some of those performance receipts or ideal performance state you wanna experience.
Zoran:And then you almost wanna have a a chunked down version that you can use as a mental reset during flying. And so some of my favorites are CPR, Not doing chest compressions and mouth to mouth. What I mean is calm, present, ready. Right? That's what CPR is.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:Right? And so in the plane, if things start to go south, and you have a moment where you've turned the plane, calm, present, ready, calm, take a breath, present, am I present? Do I feel my feet and my boots, my hands on the stick? And then ready, I am ready, I've got this. So it's a combo.
Zoran:It's almost like a little combo pack of mental skills that's going to amplify the effectiveness of those skills, just because they're paired together. Everybody loves these. If I'm doing a workshop, people like this is one of the things they'll write down and provide really good feedback on is these practical little nuggets. BLT, like the sandwich, breathe, take a breath, loose, hands, feet loose, trust, I trust myself, I trust the process, I trust my preparation. So we're, again, we're combining three things.
Zoran:And you could do whatever you want. Right? Like... And pick an acronym that you know. Last one that I'll give you in terms of self talk and performance cues.
Zoran:And these are kinda like quick focus triggers, I like to call them. W I n, what's important now. Right? If you're feeling cluttered, overwhelmed, buckets full, it's like, what's important now? K.
Zoran:This next action. Let me do that next action. What's important now? This next action. So keep reasking that question, and it's almost like an algorithm that's gonna allow you to to re cage yourself in the present.
Zoran:If you talk to anybody that works on the human mind, including mental health practitioners, mental performance, coaches, anybody that works on the human mind, one of the biggest things we try to do is help people understand their inner narrative and their inner voice and then actually do something about that. Right? The unfortunate thing, Brian, is we're not gonna entirely wipe out the inner critic by doing these kind of, statements, these performance cues. We're not. The inner critic is there.
Zoran:It is there for a reason. It's there to protect us, to keep us safe. But it's not necessarily there to motivate us and help us excel and achieve really big things and really big dreams. So having a relationship with it is always tricky, right? Not because you can't force it quiet, you can't get rid of it.
Zoran:But you can, you know, you can you can understand it, you know. And so what what I get any client I work with to do is to talk to that self talk. That's... It's such a great strategy. Like, let's say somebody's sitting in the cockpit of a plane and this inner critic starts to come in and say, oh god, you suck and don't screw this up and you didn't prepare for this.
Zoran:You talk to it. You're like, oh, welcome. I've been expecting you. Right? Welcome to the party.
Zoran:Or you tell it goodbye. You're like, hey. Like, it's a mental conversation that happens of like, hey. Like, thanks. I'll I'll talk to you after the flight.
Zoran:Thanks for coming in. Self talk is one of my favorite topics. Yeah. And and I did my master's thesis on that and and the the interplay between self talk and the nervous system, like our actual physiology. And it's it's fascinating what the the power of self talk is almost unparalleled self talk and breathing.
Bryan:Yeah. It's interesting. Some of the things that you're talking about remind me of things I used to do on flight training. Like, so you wear a parachute harness in Moose Jaw. And for listeners, that has like a clip that goes across your chest.
Bryan:So I would keep that undone until I was about to walk to the plane. And then when I clip that up, like, it's go time. So... And then if my flight got delayed, I would unclip it and then I would sit down and, like, chill. But then it's time to go clip, like, let's go.
Bryan:And then another thing that I used to do, you're talking about that BLT, the breathe loose... What was the t again? Trust. Trust. When we're doing form...
Bryan:Formation flights. When you do a form training flight, you go up with another student and the instructors take turns in each plane flying as lead while the other student in the other plane follows and flies on their wing. So the cool thing about those flights is you get to just chill out for some of it and and look around and enjoy being in formation. And so... But when that's done, now it's time to go.
Bryan:So I used to... Before I'd take control, I would kind of take my gloves and like, flex my fingers and make sure my gloves were nice and tight and then roll my head around and make sure my neck was loose and then like, okay, let's go. So I find that those little rituals that kind of psych you up and make you excited to go, like, kinda charge into battle.
Zoran:I love that. There's so many so many nuggets there and so many little moments of little but impactful moments of pre performance and, like, during performance rituals, like you said. Mhmm. And they worked for you and you're you're aware of them. And the power of them is you're doing something that's within your control Mhmm.
Zoran:In a moment where things might get dicey or challenging. And so that makes you feel reassured. And athletes do it all the time, man. Like, it's absolutely... It's...
Zoran:And some athletes have rituals that aren't necessarily helpful to their performance, I would argue. Like Mhmm. You think about tennis and Rafael Nadal and, like, his bottles. He'd shape them into, like, a diamond, like, perfectly labeled.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:That was his routine between, like, on changeovers on the tennis court. And then other... Some of the other players would come and, like, knock it over with their racket to try to, like, rattle him, and that would, like, get him mad and stuff.
Bryan:And Mhmm.
Zoran:So it's like also having those rituals and the ones you you brought up are really they're they're great, but sometimes they're actually not helpful and they don't get you to that state that you need to be in. Right?
Bryan:They're a good thing as long as they are... How do I put this? It's almost like saying they're a good thing as long as they're a good thing. But, like, basically, when they're not a distraction and they're positive and they can't really, like, get hijacked almost.
Zoran:Yes. And here's where an issue comes in. If you have a ritual... Like, I know, obviously, you always have your gloves. But let's say you had a ritual and you forgot the thing.
Zoran:Mhmm. And you didn't have it in the plane and now you don't have the ritual, that's where some of that cognitive flexibility comes in and and and that self trust. It's like, oh, yeah. I forgot my headphones. But you know what?
Zoran:It's it's fine. I've got this. Like, I've done this before, and that self reassurance goes goes a long
Bryan:way. Mhmm. So let's talk about now during the flight when the workload spikes. I believe you call this closing the applied gap. Is that right?
Bryan:Mhmm. Okay. How do we train a mental skill so a student actually uses it when the cockpit gets busy? Because it's all well and good to be sitting on the ground, like, in your office or, you know, whatever in a classroom and practicing something, but, like, now you're in the heat of the moment. How do you make sure you actually use it?
Zoran:A lot of that work happens on the ground in a safe space, not in a plane. Mhmm. Number one is is is having the right skills and the right tools in your backpack. So what I think about is those survival things where, like, you have the the flashlight and the naif and, like, the rope, like, in case you need to eject, like, 20 miles from base during the winter. It's like there's an equivalent of that for for mental skills and little, like, mental gadgets you can use and widgets and stuff.
Zoran:So remembering to use them is is... It happens through practice. I think it's like any skill. Mhmm. Right?
Zoran:How do you remember to do a specific kind of maneuver? Well, you mentally rehearse it. You do it in the Sims. You practice it before you actually step in the plane. And then when you step in the plane, you've had a thousand reps with it.
Zoran:Right? It's a similar thing with mental skills. Repetition builds strength. Like, if breathing was a skill that that somebody wanted to integrate into, into flying, it's a really... I know it's a really important one because I've been in in sims with, with pilots, and their breathing's all over the map, and they're breathing quick and heart rate spikes and stuff like that.
Zoran:So knowing how to re cage the breathing and using that as a skill, but you gotta work on it on a daily basis. Yeah. Like, you gotta put ten minutes aside every day to work on that and to pick a breathing pattern that works for you. Then to remember it during the flight, maybe you can write it on your glove.
Bryan:Yeah. I was gonna say, you can literally write it on the back of your glove or something where you're gonna see it. Like, you can put it on your thumb where you would see... You could write like CPR down the back of your thumb that's on the control column.
Zoran:Totally. Totally. Absolutely. So it's it's having that reminder and that focus cue so that those moments where it does get dicey and you need to use it, you you have it there and you don't have to think of it. It's looking you in the face.
Bryan:Yeah. And you mentioned, like, for an example of deep breathing. I will say that for me, like, going through, as, you know, most of the audience knows, a bunch of mental health challenges from my service, one of the biggest things I had to learn as an adult was like taking deep breaths to manage difficult moments. And I remember when I first started, and I was explaining this to my son the other day because we're, you know, I want him to learn this as an eight year old and not as a 30 year old, that you start trying to use this at first and it's like, how can this little thing combat this insane situation? Like, there's no way it's powerful enough.
Bryan:But then I used to set a timer every day for 05:00, let's say. And it... And then I would set a five minute timer and I would breathe for five minutes. Practice like deep breathing for five minutes. And then I found that now that when I'm upset or I'm stressed, my natural first reaction is to take a deep breath.
Bryan:And that makes a huge difference. And I am still always trying to convince my oldest son that deep breaths are super important even for adults. Continuing on that thread, how do you teach breathing as a performance tool while keeping aircraft procedures and the demands of the flight first? So, like, you want this, I would assume, to basically be a subconscious reaction rather than like a I gotta stop what I'm doing, take a breath. Like, how does that work?
Zoran:I think of Pavlovian conditioning and how Pavlov had the dogs and Mhmm. He'd ring the bell before bringing in the food and they... Over time, they start to salivate just by him ringing the bell and not by seeing the food. It takes a lot of pairings for that to happen. It took, from what I remember in the studies, it was like 90 pairings of those two, like the stimulus and then the thing that happened after it, the antecedent.
Zoran:So for me, pairing that breathing with that situation as much as possible. And what I mean by that is the example I always use because it it tended to rattle me a lot is somebody cuts you off in traffic.
Bryan:Oh, yeah.
Zoran:Oh, man. Like, what are you doing? Like, do you do you hop on the horn or can you take a breath, Jared? Like, do your hands tighten on the steering wheel? Maybe initially they do and then you you relax.
Zoran:And so I think integrating that into the moments in life, I call that the other twenty two hours. Like what's, what are you doing outside of flying? If you're all composed and gray, like pre flight during flight, and then the other twenty four hours, you're easily rattled and not composed and you're on edge and you go full tilt. A lot of these guys play video games now. So it's like, that's a great avenue to work on that.
Zoran:Take a breath, reset. Like that's the place to work on it. That's a beautiful place to work on it. Relationships, right? Taking a breath before saying a word you're gonna...
Zoran:You don't wanna say, right? Because what that does, Brian, is that creates space between stimulus and response. And Viktor Frankl talked about this in A Man's Search for Meaning, phenomenal book, very short book. He talked about his experience in concentration camp in Auschwitz. And he was a psychologist by trade, a specific kind of psychologist, and he lived through it.
Zoran:And he had notes on on a lot of human behavior that he noticed. He didn't talk about the atrocities in it. But one thing he talked about is, is this creating space between stimulus and response. When something happens, if I respond too quickly, that doesn't typically land well. Sometimes you have to, but like, can I create a bit of space between the stimulus and response?
Zoran:The breathing allows us to do that. Right? And if we can do that in in our whole life, right, We become a person who who creates space between stimulus and response.
Bryan:I actually had a thing for this. It's funny. Your example about traffic. When I was at my worst mentally, one of the things that was bothering my wife Melissa was I would get really angry if somebody did something unsafe, like cut me off or something on the road, not out of like how dare they or something, but because I was like, you just threatened like me and my family almost. Like, it was this stress reaction.
Bryan:And, you know, I'd be yelling or whatever and... Which is not the person I wanna be. And talking to my therapist about it, what we did was when that happened, I would take a breath and I would say, my job is to safely drive this vehicle. And it just like stops the moment and like breaks you off from that natural anger reaction and sort of cages you like, hey, my job's not to worry about that guy's driving. My job is to safely drive this car that has my wife and kids in it.
Bryan:Wow. That's that's a beautiful strategy. So the breathing plus, like, almost a refocusing on what you have within your control. Mhmm.
Zoran:Right? It's like my job is to... I love that strategy. Do you... And you found it helpful?
Bryan:Super effective. Yeah. I had a really good therapist. I still have a really good therapist now, but it's a different one.
Zoran:Yeah. Think therapy is is really great for anybody. Yeah. I think there's potentially... Not potentially.
Zoran:I know there is stigma in the in the pilot circles on therapy because
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:Yep. You can get you can get grounded for mental health challenges. And so I I don't know. I I I think it's getting better. Mhmm.
Zoran:But I also I also know there's people that will never open up to somebody because they've been burned in
Bryan:the past. And for those people, particularly students who may not know about this yet, A number that I put in my phone when I was a student at Moose Jaw is SIF MAP, and we will just play a quick blurb on that that I play whenever this topic comes up. Okay. So we're going to talk quickly about SIF MAP or the Canadian Forces Member Assistance Program. This program is for regular force members, reserves who are on duty during an incident, and parents and siblings of CAF regular and reserve force members who are injured or who die while in service.
Bryan:The program provides direct access to telephone counseling services twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. From my own personal experience, you can call or use their online chat feature to make an appointment. They then set you up with a professional and I believe you get 10 free mental health sessions. For more details, I highly encourage you to Google CFMAP, that's c f m a p, and click on the canada.ca link. The beauty of this program is it's free and confidential so no one in the CAF will know you used it, not your supervisor or chain of command and not your doctor.
Bryan:I don't say that to encourage people hiding their conditions from their doctor. I personally think it's important to be open with your doctor about what you're going through. But if you're afraid to ask for help, it's a great way to dip your toes in the water confidentially. So how do you contact them? Listen closely everyone.
Bryan:Take out your phone and save this number because you or someone you love may need it one day. The number is 1802687708. Again, that's 1802687708. And now on with the show.
Zoran:Here's how I view it. If somebody's serious about their performance, they're gonna work on all aspects of their performance. So one of the facets of performance is the body. Mhmm. You gotta be really good at the craft and take the craft seriously.
Zoran:Right? And that's got its own level of skills and competencies and everything that fits in within that. Absolutely. Really important. And then the third one is the mind.
Zoran:That's the one that gets left out often, unfortunately.
Bryan:So in your podcast, we've mentioned a couple times, it's the Built For Pressure Podcast. You talk about something called an OODA Loop. That's o o d a loop. You have an episode on that that deals with a helmet fire. For listeners, what is that loop, and how can it help a student regain focus without adding another task?
Zoran:So the concept of the OODA loop was designed by a US Air Force fighter pilot, John Boyd. The OODA loop is a continuous decision making cycle designed to help aviators process information faster than dynamic conditions or threats can evolve. Right? And so here's what each of the things actually means, each of the letters. The o is for for observe, and observe means you scan flight instruments, cockpit displays, visual references, and and radio traffic to gather some of that raw essay data, situational data in in real time.
Zoran:Right? The the orient piece is filtering the raw observations through your flight training, through your aircraft performance, limits, through through past experience, and threat assessment to build an accurate mental model or mental picture about what's actually happening in the moment. Okay. D is for deciding. And so to decide, you select the single best tactical response, control input, or or contingency protocol based on your updated picture and your your mental model of the situation and what's happening.
Zoran:Right? And then the A is for acting. And so, that means executing the physical maneuver or the system input, essentially, like right away and then and then instantly resetting and, and going back to the to the observe component to it. Right? So now you're back to assessing your aircraft's response and the changing environment.
Zoran:So it's it's a... It's an algorithm that takes effort to actually be able to apply this effectively. And if anybody... I gave the the title of of the gentleman who came up with it. It's John Boyd, from the US Air Force.
Zoran:And there's some good resources on it out there that go into more depth. But I think to make this live, I would almost, like, map these out. Like, had these worksheets when we worked on this, and it's like, observe. Well, like, what does that mean? And we'd map out the things that I just spoke out.
Zoran:That would be a way to to to regain some of that. And it might not be a loop you need to constantly have running on repeat in your head, but it might be an algorithm that you go to in moments where you start to fall behind the plane.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:If you have the mental bandwidth and and moment to do it... And this can be a a thing that you can run, like, in five to ten seconds.
Bryan:Yeah. It could be like a thing that gets you out of a frozen moment. Like, holy crap. What do I do here? And then you go, like, okay, Uda.
Bryan:Right? And
Zoran:you Yep.
Bryan:You run through it. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned, like, in moments where you're falling behind because one of the questions I had for you is, what are the early signs that someone is starting to fall behind the aircraft? So we know now that if they notice this, maybe they can try the OODA loop. How do they notice it?
Bryan:What are they looking for? Like, aside from like, holy crap, like, there's that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I'm hanging onto the tail here or water skiing behind the the plane. But, like, are the early signs?
Zoran:I'd say confusion in the cockpit. I'd say not... Lack of clarity on what to do. I'd say, again, missing some of those points that you're meant to hit. I think pilots would would be better able to answer that question.
Zoran:You flew a lot of planes. Right? Like, what would you say are signs?
Bryan:Yeah. For me, I think that personally, like for Brian Morrison, either I was ahead and thinking like, what's next? What's next? What's next? Or I was like reacting in behind.
Bryan:And that is a very uncomfortable feeling. And you'll start to... For me, mistakes will start to pile up. Like, one error here and there, that's normal. Everyone makes mistakes.
Bryan:But when it's like, oh, I missed a I missed a radio call. I should've I should've made that call back there. Oh, and now I'm too fast. Now I'm this. Now I'm that.
Bryan:Like, you're in a reactive state versus a proactive state. That is like the ultimate, like, oh, I'm there. A warning sign for me would be you're not thinking about what happens next because you have to be doing that. Like, if you're not thinking about what happens next, you are going to fall behind.
Zoran:Don't you think there's times when you're on route to an area, like to the practice area, and you trim the plane, you don't necessarily have to be thinking about what you're gonna be doing next until you get closer to it?
Bryan:No. You need you need to be thinking about what's my what's my next radio call? What's my next checklist I need to run? You know? Okay.
Bryan:I'm gonna be doing stalls next. So I'm gonna be doing my pre stall, slow flight check or the next check-in is here. Like, I'm entering the practice area. Okay. When am I calling the tower to stay clear of the control area?
Bryan:That'll be the next step. The next step after that would be, let's say, making a traffic call as I enter the practice area. So there's always a next step. Like, flying is so procedural and so busy that if you're not thinking about... Like crossing the Atlantic or something, sure.
Bryan:Right? Like, you know, I've crossed the Atlantic for seven hours and yeah, you got time. Like, you're checking in every hour or whatever, but or or, you know, long en route flights where you kind of say, okay, we've got 45 to the next point. I'm just gonna listen out for radio calls and you can just chat. But once you're at...
Bryan:In a stage that's more dynamic, like you're about to arrive at an airport, like, what's next? What's next? What's
Zoran:When we went on one of these Texas attachments, I got to sit in the cockpit and, like, in the jump seat of the plane as it was landing. And it was amazing seeing, like, these pilots had done so many of these landings in their life and it was like tying a shoelace. Like, it was the equivalent of, like, me tying my shoelace in the morning is what this landing was. So they're like... There's moments where they're, like, doing the calls and then they're kind of chatting, talking to me a little bit, and then they're focused on the task, and then they're kind of chatting again.
Zoran:And it's like, okay, Cool. Did the thing. And you're like, oh my god.
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:It was eye opening. Do you think that... You think with a lot of the tech that's in in the, like, fifth and sixth gen planes, do you think some of that knowledge of that procedural knowledge that that we're talking about and, like, falling behind the aircraft... Like, obviously, with the... I think the PC 21 also has, it's got autopilot.
Zoran:Right?
Bryan:I think so. Yeah. It's a pretty sophisticated, training aircraft for sure.
Zoran:So do you think that skill becomes less important? No. Or do you think that's still be... No?
Bryan:No. It'll never be unimportant because all systems come with, complications, things that can go wrong. You always have to be ready to drop down a level of automation or whatever. Like in the military, like you're constantly like, well, okay, you can do it with all the equipment. What if what if half of it's not working?
Bryan:Right? So you've always got to kind of be on top of it. And, you know, even automation, you have to be thinking about what's next because you have to know what you expect it to do so that if it doesn't, you take over. So it's always a critical skill in flying.
Zoran:The bucket arguably could get fuller, but also from my understanding, some of these newer cockpits, like, don't need to diagnose what the red pay... What red page you need to do. It just tells you what the issue is.
Bryan:Yeah. Like, for emergency handling and stuff, you know, I've... I only flew really old airplanes. Like, the Aurora was from the eighties, and it's based on the Elektra, which is from, like, the fifties or sixties. But, yeah, a lot of the newer aircraft, they just kind of go boom and then you look down and it's like, hey, you had this emergency.
Bryan:I've already handled it. But that stuff just means that you have more brain space to focus on the other critical things that are going on, which is great because often an emergency doesn't happen when you're just in the middle of a transit. It happens when you're at, you know, 300 feet over the ocean or you're about to land or whatever. So that's great because it frees you up for more critical stuff. So let's say it's my final test.
Bryan:I've just made a mistake and I'm still thinking about it while the next task is coming at me. So this is basically the classic spark that can start a helmet fire. What does a useful reset look like? Are we talking about that, like, learn, burn, turn? What are we...
Bryan:Where are we looking at here?
Zoran:Yeah. I think learn, burn, return is a good
Bryan:Sorry. Learn, burn, return. Yeah.
Zoran:All good. All good. I think learn, burn, return is a good good algorithm again. I'm gonna use that word. A good reset.
Zoran:Think calm, present, ready, brief, loose, trust. It really is gonna depend on the person and their preferences. What I will say is it's better to have more mental skills that you've worked on and those processes that you've worked on that you don't use. Because in the moments, you're in the cockpit. Like, you don't have a lot of time.
Zoran:You've got maybe five seconds to reset, maybe, if that. And so I'd say having a couple of skills, a suite of skills or processes that you've worked on is important. Right? Mhmm. And and not having it be something new.
Zoran:Like, always say, students will come in, oh, I've got a test coming up, and I'm thinking about integrating breathing into it. The test is tomorrow. It's like, no. Like, that's not a skill you practiced. Yeah.
Zoran:That's gonna add cognitive load during the test. Yeah. Right? So we practice skills to lower cognitive load. And by practicing something over and over, it actually gives us more bucket space.
Zoran:Right? That's actually what it does. And so in that moment, it has to be something that that works for the for the person. And I think I've already given a couple of examples for for what that could be.
Bryan:Yeah. It's funny. When I was early in my flight training on the civilian side, I remember one of the things people used to say to you before a flight test was don't do any of the three d's, which is nothing dumb, dangerous, or different. So different there. Right?
Bryan:Like, you've got a system by that point, hopefully. Right? Like, you're... You should not be adding things on the day of a flight test whether that's stress reducing techniques or techniques in the airplane. Like, you should be sticking to what you know.
Zoran:So there's the the women's rugby world cup happened last year in England. Canada played England. Canadian national team, women's national team heavily underfunded, basically, like, crowdfunded. All sorts of issues playing against England heavily funded, like, just crazy level. Canada competed.
Zoran:But I have a client who played in that World Cup. And the week before, she comes to me and she goes, hey, like, I've got a week until this event. What do we what do we wanna add in terms of mental skills? And I'm like, no. We're not adding anything.
Zoran:Like, we're doing the things that... We're reinforcing the things we've done all season. Mhmm. We're tapering. We're not adding anything new.
Zoran:Like, that's that's gonna spend require mental energy. Right? And so the the the different is massive. Mhmm. Right?
Zoran:Don't don't make it be different. It's like, do the things you've tried and tested for all aspects of life, though. Right? It's like, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. Like, do the things that that you're used to.
Zoran:Yeah. Because that gives... It gives a lot of reassurance, especially in those kind of moments.
Bryan:I just wanna clarify, like, when you say do the things you're used to, we're talking about at crunch time when it's go time. You know, you can try out new things in less critical moments, but when the time comes and and especially if we come back to the flight test, do not do something different. So the last question I wanna ask you is in the first episode, we asked a question for the students instructors who are listening. Anyone who is, a mentor, an instructor, but especially an instructor, I would say, what can that person say after a flight that doesn't go well?
Zoran:Oh, god. I... I've had the privilege of of working with and meeting and talking with and being in a mess with some amazing instructors in Moose Jaw and on those detachments as well. What I've learned from these instructors and from my own work in high performance sport and coaching tennis for fifteen years is it depends on the relationship. So some students need a kick in the butt, really.
Zoran:Like they need some tough love and they need you to go, dude, that was freaking terrible. They need to hear that. And so you need to know who you're talking to, and hopefully, there's some rapport of the instructor having flown with the student for a good amount of time before that. On the flip side, the instructor also has to be authentic to their own coaching philosophy. Yes, there's all the flight instructor course in the school and there's a certain methodology, but what is your coaching philosophy?
Zoran:And that's gonna be meshed with your personality and preferences, experiences. And what you say in that moment has to be aligned with that. If it's not authentic for them to say, that was a terrible flight, you can't just say that. You can't force that. So, I'd say, as instructors start to gain more experience, their intuition, like trusting their intuition to tell them what to say to that student in the moment.
Zoran:And if they've been with the student, really thought about the student, been in the plane, seen them perform, seeing them under stress, see
Bryan:them learning a new skill, knowing the stage they're in, knowing what's going on for the student in their life, the instructor's gonna know what to say. So more of a like... Because there... You know, who knows? There could be a a brand new instructor listening to this.
Bryan:So rather than having, like, a script that's like, hey, this is the thing I say after a tough flight, actually stopping for a second and being like, who is this student and what do they need from me right now?
Zoran:Yes. What what do they need to hear from me? So for some, it's not gonna be a kick in the butt. For some of them, it's gonna be
Bryan:Hey, you got this. Go home. Forget go home and relax. Like, go home and get a workout in, whatever.
Zoran:Which they're not. Like, you know, they're not gonna go home and relax. Yeah. Like, they're gonna think about it. They're gonna dissect it and think about it.
Zoran:So I'd say giving, in that moment, like, what you say on a personal level.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:That's why I think knowing the person underneath the uniform, Ryan, for me is is the answer here for the instructor.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:Both underneath their own uniform, but also the person they're sitting across. If they're able to do that, they're gonna know exactly what to say. So I'll leave it at that.
Bryan:Okay. Alright. So that is gonna wrap up what was supposed to be the final part of this discussion, but we've actually decided... You know, we've talked about pivoting as the plans change. There's just so much to talk about here, and we have said outright at the beginning of this episode that I do think this is one of the most important tools we can help to pass on to pilots both in the training system and outside the training system as well as really anyone who's out there in professional sport and a high performance, high demand job.
Bryan:I think we're giving out a lot of really good practical tips. So we are going to split this up into a third episode. Zoran, thank you so much for making the time to be here again today. This was really interesting. There's a lot of tools here that I think it's cool to hear that some of the stuff I was using back in the day, but also some stuff that I wish I had had.
Bryan:So I'm I'm happy that we're passing that on. And just to get people an idea of what we plan to talk about on the next one, we're gonna kind of go in. We've gone through sort of in a long way through the process of a flight and some tools for that. Next, we're gonna talk about tools for the debrief, get ready for the next flight, as well as kind of Moose Jaw is... We always used to say it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Bryan:So, like, yeah, you can you can perform. Anyone can, like, you know, turn on the afterburners for a week, but how do you do that and make it last? And then we're gonna kind of get into what students can start doing right now. So, again, thank you so much, and we will talk to you again soon.
Zoran:Yeah. No problem. Really enjoyed the conversation. And if anybody has questions, like, I'd say feel free to reach out on on Instagram at k I zed o performance or, yeah, through email as well. My email is on the website.
Zoran:So, happy to provide resources, questions, and I know there's also really great resources within, within the RCAF. Right on.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part two of our chat with Zoran Stoikovich on mental performance training within military aviation. Like we said, for the next episode, we are going to finish up this section of practical tips with talking about the debrief and how to perform over a long period of time. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at Pod Pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and Mission Aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.