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HR Voices is a scenario-based podcast for People Leaders who’ve actually had to make the call.
Each episode brings experienced HR and People leaders into realistic, anonymized workplace scenarios—the kind you recognize immediately. Performance issues. Messy conflicts. Investigations that don’t fit neatly into a policy box. Instead of talking about their own companies, guests react to outside cases and walk through how they’d think it through in real time.
There are no right answers here. What you’ll hear is judgment: how seasoned leaders balance risk, fairness, legal reality, and humanity when the stakes are high and the path isn’t obvious.
HR Voices is for HR, People Ops, legal, and leaders who want to hear how other smart humans actually handle employee relations—without confidentiality breaches, hypotheticals that feel fake, or a lecture on “best practices.”
Sara & Rebecca
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[00:00:00] Welcome to HR Voices, a podcast where people leaders share their side of the story. We talk about the challenges they're facing, how they're addressing them, and what changes they hope to see as the workplace evolves. This podcast is sponsored by AllVoices, the all-in-one employee relations platform.
Hello, and welcome to HR Voices. I'm your host, Rebecca Taylor, and I'm here with Sara Birmingham, the chief people officer at Shutterstock. Sara, thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. This is so awesome. Yeah. I know it's, like, taken a little bit for us to get this scheduled too, because you had life happen, I had life happen, and like, now here we are, and I feel like we picked this scenario a while ago, but I-- it's still, like, a very timely, topical one, so I feel pretty good about it.
Yeah, absolutely. No, happy that we finally got this together. I know. Same. Mm-hmm. Same. All right, you ready for me to read it out? I'm ready. Okay. So we're calling this one The Accommodating Conflict. An employee with a documented anxiety disorder requests a medical accommodation to work from home full-time.
HR approves the [00:01:00] accommodation, but three months later, her manager claims her remote performance is inadequate and wants to place her on a PIP. HR must determine whether the PIP process can proceed, whether the accommodation itself created performance barriers, whether the manager's evaluation is objective, and how to avoid having the PIP characterized as adverse action, targeting a protected accommodation.
Lots of things to balance here. All that is- And it feels very real, 'cause there are, you know, we can kinda get into sort of, you know, accommodation stuff and performance stuff and how they tend to get kinda complicated. But before we dive into all of that stuff, looking at this broadly, what stands out to you as the most risky or the most unclear in this scenario as it is right now?
Yeah. So, three months, it's not that long of a period of time. The accommodation was approved, so, uh, ultimately we started off saying, "Yes, this can work," right? So I think y- you know, this is one where you have to have all your ducks in a row, right? Yeah. The risky part is lots of, It, it-- Look, [00:02:00] managers come and say, "This person's not performing.
We need to put them on, on PIP." Typically, you trust the manager, you go through the process with them. I think this one where, is one you've gotta take a much closer look and do a lot more analysis before you, you take action. Yeah. I think, I'll be honest, I think my first reaction wouldn't be to typically trust the manager.
Yeah. Only because-- Yeah, and I don't mean that... No shade to managers I've worked with before. Yeah. Love you all to death. But like, it's kind of like, mm, I don't know if I trust your evaluation of this. Let me double-check it too. Let's look and see- Yeah ...'cause I'm... Yeah. You cannot blindly do that in this case- Yeah ...because one, there's biases on- on people re- working remotely.
There's biases on people having accommodations. So there's biases all over this that you have to make sure you're check and balancing. And plus, look, the manager, is it a first-time manager? Is it a seasoned manager? Have they had training? Do they, you know, how much effort did, did they put into understanding what it meant to manage a remote employee, nevertheless an employee with an accommodation?
So all those things have to factor in. So, blind trust on this one would be [00:03:00] risky. Well, performance management is also, and just performance in general, is one of those things that it's so... I don't think we've ever gotten it right. I still think it's one of those things that no one's ever really gotten it truly, truly right just because it's such a bear.
Like- It is ... do we even set goals properly? You know, are we managing it based on true output, or are there other, like, sort of unspoken expectations that we have which usually are evaluated by bias that we're holding people to that's not clear? So it's like, I'm always like, "What do you mean they're not performing?
What does this mean to you exactly?" I see. Yeah. And look, it, the thing about being in HR in this scenario is it's a lot of work. Yes. It's a lot of work to all the things you just said, to say, "Okay, h- now we have to unpack all of this and make sure all those things are true, and what's, you know, what, where is there miscommunication?
Where is it subjective? Where was there a lack of goals or priorities set or communication?" You know, and you know, they, it, how many times have people said, "Oh, you know, HR is not [00:04:00] here for the employees. They're here for the manager of the business." Yeah. If you're a good HR employee, you actually, yes, the manager- is the one that is responsible for leading a team and managing.
But you really have to sort of say, "Has this employee gotten a fair shot?" You know? Yeah. Or you're not doing your job properly. So it can be tricky and messy and hard. Yeah. And I feel like- Some managers aren't always happy if you tell them that Yeah ... they're not doing their job properly. Yeah.
It's like, maybe this is a you thing that we can- Absolutely ... unpack and figure out and better support each other with, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's also, this is kind of what I like about this scenario, is that this feels very, very real to sort of at least my own lived HR experience, where this is kind of the work that employees don't usually see.
So a manager coming to you for whatever reason, not necessarily the accommodation part, but the, "I wanna fire this person," or, "I wanna put this person on a PIP," 'cause PIPs also I think need a rebrand because they've kind of been misused. Like- Totally. Totally ... it's code for I need to- It's coaching. It's coaching.
Right It's development. It's all those great [00:05:00] things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, there... I don't know how many times I've had conversations with managers where it's like, "Okay, let's look and see if that is the right move. Let's see if there's sort of a ramp-up period to that." And the employee in question doesn't see that work, but they do see the manager not firing them.
Yeah. So it's like, that's what's kind of so funny, so much of our work just flies under the radar like that. It's so unseen, isn't it? And you, and it's almost like, yes, un- unless you are personally working with the employee on it, they don't see any of that, right? Yeah. So I think that is, that's the tough part of- Yeah
somewhat thankless job, right? Yeah. And like by design, it's like you shouldn't see that, but also for those who are listening, this is the kind of stuff we deal with all the time. Do you know how many ti- do you know how many PIPs we didn't- Yeah ... or do you know how many times we said, "Oh, th- they're successful.
They're off the PIP"? We coached managers to, to communicate better so you would improve or to take you through development or anything like that. Absolutely so many of those work, and I, you know, the [00:06:00] connotation of a PIP is, "I'm gonna be fired," versus, "Wait a minute. Uh, let's see if we can communicate, develop, be more clear- Mm-hmm
so that this employee can be successful." That's, I think the should be the first and foremost, point of going through a process. It's sad, though. It's sad that we, you have to have something like that. Yeah. It creates this impetus to have managers communicate with their employees. Yeah. You know?
Really. Yeah. 'Cause it's uncomfortable. And, you know, we'll do anything to avoid conflict or to- Absolutely ... put the blame on something else. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're, let's say, you know, you are the HR person in this scenario, you know, this manager comes to you. I imagine one of the first people you're gonna be talking to is the manager, since that's where the primary dialogue is.
If at any point, you know, is there anyone else that you would talk to sort of at this stage? 'Cause the employee doesn't seem to know that anything's going on based on this fabricated scenario that we have no additional context on, right? Yeah. Yeah. From the way that I read this, it's like the manager's coming to you, the employee doesn't know anything.
Yep. So w- who do you talk [00:07:00] to, and how d- what conversation do you have with that person? Yeah. So I think you first and foremost talk to the manager, and then that could reveal, who, w- who else you would talk to. But obviously it's, all right, what has occurred, what communication, expectations, rules.
So sit down, get all the facts, get any documentation you can, work with that manager. Sometimes you might, you know, depending on what the manager tells you, right? So if it feels like- Mm-hmm ... you need to get more information on the situation or what's, what else is happening in that department or that team, you might go to their manager.
You might say, you know, you might have some... ask to have conversations with other employees on the team, right? But I think you start with the manager, and then typically, you know, nothing is, is, nothing is cut and dry in this, right? Yeah. So I think you, you have to sort of see what you're, what you're getting from the manager, right?
So if they have all their ducks in a row, documentation, deadlines not being missed that are clear, that are concise, that are in writing, that shows you they really have communicated with the employee and the employee is [00:08:00] truly not meeting the expectations then that's one thing. If it's vague, if it's not clear, then you might, take a different course of action and talk to some more people.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, are you pulling any kinds of like performance ref- reports on your own in addition to this, or like doing your own- Yeah ... backdoor like research, I guess? Absolutely. I think you'd think about what is the manager's track record of performance, first of all- Yeah ... right? Have they had, have they had lots of employees on PIPs?
Or what's the o- is the other team... Is there anyone else remote on the team? Mm-hmm. How are they performing? Uh, how's the rest of the team performing? So take a look at that. Also, kinda you just look at the demographics of the team, you know, history of, of the, you know, how that manager has performed. So lo- yes, definitely some background.
Also, the employee that asked for the accommodation, what is their performance track record, right? Mm-hmm. Have they been exceeds every year, right? And all of a sudden he wants to, they want- That's not- ... he, she wants to put them on a PIP. Yeah. I think that would be telling, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, to your [00:09:00] point too, looking at has this manager ever been on any kind of a PIP of their own?
Um, have there been any trends in exit interviews, like people who've been resigning under this person, remote or not? That could be interesting to look at too, just like to get even more context around, okay, is this something that comes up a lot? Is this sort of a, a new type of situation with this person?
And what do we kinda do about that? Yeah. If you have any enga- engagement survey data, you'd look at that. What's the culture on that team? A track record. You also, um, you know, might look into if they had any development or training that said, okay, th- you know, do they understand how to manage people remotely?
Have they had training on, um, management training? Did they go through the management training that was required or not required, or any of that, so- Yeah ... those types of things, yeah. Yeah. Now I'm gonna ask you kind of, this, this is a subjective question. Um, so, like most of these, there's no really like strict right or wrong for a lot of it, like because it's sort of this is kind of the, the whole navigating of the gray, right?
But so it says that he wants to, that [00:10:00] they, the manager wants to put the person on a PIP after three months of going remote, after an accommodation for anxiety. Is that enough time? Yeah. Typically, no. Look, a- again, it's so m- it's so, the qu- the answer is always like caveated with, it depends. It depends, yeah.
Is it a sale- is it a sales job, and they're not doing any sales? Is it a job where there are daily timelines and deadlines that they're not meeting? So it could depend, right? If it's a customer, service job, and they're, they've been getting customer complaints regularly. If it's... So it d- it, it could depend on their role, but I would say, if it if it doesn't have as strict deadlines that you could actually measure that performance really objectively over three months, then it's probably not enough time.
Yeah. I agree. 'Cause it's kind of like if you think about it as even if the person is technically doing the same job that they were doing before, they're doing it in a different way now. Their manager has to manage them in a different way now. Even if, you know, maybe this manager is also, they're, they've 20 people on the floor, and [00:11:00] one person working remotely, right?
So it's like that's basically an onboarding period. So- It is ... it's like everything's new. They're not accustomed to the communication style and the information they're getting. Yeah. They're not sitting next to someone asking questions to them. They're not getting the same amount of c- contact or input, um, from that manager on a daily basis if the rest of the team is not remote.
So i- that is an adjustment in and of itself to say, are, how are they getting information on a regular basis that's very different than how they used to get information? Yeah. Yeah. You know, or, or coaching or feedback, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the thing that could get frustrating about sort of how some of these situations are framed up, 'cause these are all fabricated technically, but, like, there's versions of them that happen kind of everywhere, right?
Very similar. But we're kind of... Yeah. Like, we're kinda limited by, like, the narrative that we have, so we could kind of make stuff up and say, like, let's say this is what happens. Mm-hmm. You know, let's say you have a conversation with the manager. It turns out that this person's performance is, maybe not the same that it was before they went out, but not...
But, like, they have many, many... L- [00:12:00] enough history to sort of say, like, okay, this might just be sort of a period of transition that, you know, is there. So, how do you, like, again, hypothetically, let's say we decide we're not gonna PIP this person. How do you tell that to the manager, and what do you, what do you do to equip them to sort of get to the next check-in point or milestone to reevaluate this decision?
Yeah. Uh, no, that's great. I think you're absolutely right, and that happens a lot, where it's I'm not getting exactly what I got. It's different, right? And an accommodation is just that. We are- No ... we are willing to make an accommodation so that the employee can stay with us and still be effective in their role.
So you have to... You know, it takes a while to adjust to that and figure out what we, you know, you can and can't do. So I think what we would do is we'd sit the manager down and we say, "Look, we're, we're not seeing enough in enough time for us to, you know, really agree that this manager is un- this employee's underperforming.
So let's talk about how you can actually, you know, [00:13:00] work with them to make them as successful as you need them to be. Uh, let's also talk about what your expectations are." So, you know, go through with them, and it's coaching, it's development. It is one-on-one with that leader. And also, you know, if they have a manager, getting that manager involved so they can actually help them as well.
So it's not just HR that should be, um, you know, surrounding this manager with the support they need. It can also be s- others, right? Yeah. Um, so, let's talk about expectations. What are the expectations? And then they might come up and say, "Well, you know, I didn't hear from them on this," or, "They didn't get back to me this way."
Well, how did, how did that happen before? They walked by your office. They walked by your desk. They can't do that now. Right. They're not doing that now. So that's an expectation you have that, that is not feasible in this new, um, scenario. Yeah. So I think we can catch things like that and just, it's not a No, you can't put this person on a PIP. It is a sit-down conversation to say, "Let's talk about how we can, can turn this around in a way that everyone's gonna be happy," right? Mm-hmm. "And that you're gonna get what you need." So I think it's also the [00:14:00] coaching that's involved in coaching that manager so that they can walk out saying, "Hey, this is a good plan."
Yeah. "It's not the plan I thought in the beginning, but I think I can do some things differently that might make this work." Yeah. I love that. And I, I'm, I'm firmly with you with the coaching side of it, too, 'cause it's just like, you know, I read this and I don't see any bad actors. I see everyone's kind of just like, you know, doing their best, not really sure probably like how to navigate it or what to do.
And I'm curious 'cause I've had situations where, you know, I've had to navigate accommodations with managers for employees who have a documented anxiety disorder, and, I've... I don't know if you've heard this or if anything's like this happened to you before, but in these scenarios, when the manager and the employee are adjusting to whatever those accommodations are, the managers would sometimes come to me and say, "I feel like I can't give this person feedback."
Yes. You know, they say their anxiety's really bad. I don't wanna make it worse. I don't wanna make it more anxious. Or make them more anxious, make the anxiety, the situation more anxiety-inducing. How do you, like, how do you help them navigate that? Because that is a reality that they're, that a [00:15:00] lot of folks are gonna have to navigate.
I've seen it numerous times, and you know what happens in those situation, they actually stop talking to the employee. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, then the, it, then the situation- Then you really don't know. Then they just wanna fire them. Then the employee says, "I'm..." All of a sudden, you know, "I, I'm getting nothing from my manager because they're so afraid to, you know, create, um, make it worse or create more anxiety."
And a lot of times it's actually with good intent. Yes. You know, most of the time. Uh, I think, again, it goes back to, you know, w- how do I help you navigate through this as a leader, and what's the training and development you need to be able to feel comfortable in this? It's also sitting down with the two employees, with the employee and the manager, and brokering a conversation to say, you know, "What's gonna, what's, what's gonna work for you?"
You know? Yeah. "We understand that you're, you know, you're going through some stuff. We understand that, you know, you need to work a little differently. Let's have that conversation up front together so... And let's p- put some words in place where if you're uncomfortable with something or if this isn't working for you, [00:16:00] this is how you bring it to me, this is how I bring it to you."
Yeah. So I think just having, forcing that initial conversation or, providing support for that initial conversation so that they can kinda set those boundaries so that immediately they feel comfortable is so important. Yeah. And I think it does need to be a dialogue, like you mentioned.
Absolutely. Like, sit them both down together, help them kind of just figure it out what it is that they need, 'cause you don't have to guess. No one has to guess. And, and I think it's important to note that, like, it's pro- whatever they come up with at first is probably gonna change as they figure out, as they do it, and then figure out what works and what doesn't.
So it kinda has to be an ongoing thing. Absolutely. And you know, we've s- you can flip it, too. We... I've had lots of employees come to me and say, I told the manager I f- you know, was having, was dealing with this, and then they did this." I was like, "Oh, have you talked to them?" Yeah. "No." Yeah.
"Okay, wait. Let's make let's start there." Let's make that happen. Yeah. Let's start there, have a conversation. Uh, it probably wasn't ill intent. It was miscommunication. It was them not knowing. It was them not [00:17:00] understanding. Let's, let's clear it up, clear it up so that going forward you're comfortable going to your manager to say, "Hey, can we do this a little differently?"
Or, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And this is what I find so fun, uh, about sort of what HR work is, because these are the kinds of things that we're called into that you can't always measure, that you can't... You know, there's no dashboard on my people analytics tool that sort of shows PIPS prevented due to good conversation or something, right?
But, like, this is, like, the crux of what the work is, is just helping people figure each other out, and helping people not do harm to each other or to themselves in, you know, from- Absolutely ... the little definition to a big definition of that word. Absolutely. And one of the things that is so important, especially in this, the world that we have a zillion things going on, and there's, technology, is remembering empathy.
Mm-hmm. Remembering that, how do you have high empathy for a situation, right? Start there. Okay, there was no ill intent. It's a misunderstanding. They don't know [00:18:00] this about me. How do we clear it up? How do we just have a, a very calm conversation that is professional and respectful and has some empathy in it, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. That's so important. And managers, often that isn't something that, they learn about. They have to sort of make some mistakes and sort of see that in action before they understand how to adopt that. Yeah. Especially in the world of player-coach management, which is getting even more, I don't know, popular now because thanks to AI, we can all do everything and no manager needs to solely manage people.
That's a whole other rant for a whole other day. I'm firmly, I firmly disagree with that actually, for at least in, in a lot of different cases because the people part of the work of management and leadership is the part that needs the most care. People don't need as much help managing their work.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but it's usually they need help managing the stress around a deadline or the skills that they have to build to do the project that's there. Like, the work is the easy part. To me, it's a cop-out when you're [00:19:00] focusing on the work more than the person. Absolutely. And like, if your only job is the person, then that's all you got.
And too, I think, so what's happened in that is they, they're stressed for their deadline. They don't have the time, so it, it just, the c- there's a complete breakdown in employees getting actually what they need to develop, to grow, to learn, to get to the next step in their career. Yeah. You know? So I, I completely agree with you.
I think when you load a leader up with a bunch of work on their, for their own and ask them to manage 10 people, uh, it it's almost im- it's extremely hard to do. Yeah. It's extremely hard. And typically, yes, that team as a whole, there isn't time for team building. There isn't time for getting to know strengths and weaknesses of people.
There isn't time to create development specifically for, for someone. So it becomes kind of more a cookie cutter exercise that- Yeah. I kind of- ... isn't one size fits all. Yeah. And that's, I think, sort of the takeaway for me from, you know, something like this is just like you can't manage everybody [00:20:00] in a one size fits all scenario because we are not one size fits all.
We are all... There was a book I was reading that was, it was, of course, I'm not gonna remember the name of it 'cause it always escapes me when I'm in the moment and I need it, but it was about sort of, um, thinking of people as a garden. So it's kind of just like tend your garden. Some, some plants need more sun than others.
Some need more water. Some need different temperatures. So it's like they're all gonna be this thriving, beautiful, lush garden together, but they're all gonna have their little individual things that they need. Yeah. And that's the job of a manager, to figure out what that is and to give that to them because that's what's good for the garden.
That's what's gonna get you- Absolutely ... you know, that's what brings the team together and they work well together. And if you talk about, like, going back to the kind of the PIP scenario, this person isn't doing the way I would do it. They're not doing it the way everyone else on the team does it.
Why is that wrong? Yes. Well, or, yeah. You know? And like, and, and, and that, and that they're bringing something different to the table. So it's like I, I love, and my whole career thinking the team has different strengths and different development areas, and that's what makes it so beautiful because they complement each other in [00:21:00] that, right?
And as a team, if you really create a team, like a gard- you can help each other with those, right? So that's- Yeah ... when that happens, it's, I think it's You know, you can be unstoppable as a team if you kind of create that. So I love that. Yeah. I'd like to know the name of that book actually. Yeah, I'll find it.
I'll probably have to ask my ChatGPT, like, "What book was this again?" I, I ki- I think I've heard of it before, but I can't remember the name of it either, but- Yeah. I'm so bad at remembering the name of the names of books on the spot. Names of book and song titles, I'm just like, "Wait, y- but you know the song.
You know more." I'm horrible, horrible at it. Uh, yeah. No, I get you. Yeah. No, I... And in this scenario, there's, there's, there this scenario specifically is one that you have to get a lot of information before you make a decision, right? Yeah. Because there are biases, there's development, there's, I mean, just, just lots of complex things that you'd need to unpack before you would just be quick to...
And I think that's what happens is even on HR teams, they're busy, they're this. It's like, "Okay, start the PIP," and then- Yeah ... you, you have to dial that back, and then you're in a situation that then sometimes [00:22:00] is, it's hard to come to a good outcome if you don't- Yeah ... start with the right kind of due diligence.
Yeah. I agree. And here's a, this is a, I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here, but I'm curious like what you think. So I was thinking, you know, we did a webinar, uh, you know, recently about the metrics that matter and how we're kind of like what are the, the new metrics that kind of determine what HR is, and it kind of gets me thinking like, I hear this story, and I almost wanna see like number of PIPs requested versus approved.
'Cause that could be a very interesting kind of thing to be like, okay, where was the PIP stopped? And so, well, actually, because I said that first, I might be leading the witness a little bit when I ask you this question. But so if you were the HR person in this scenario, manager comes to you, asks for a PIP, we decide we're not gonna do it.
Do you document that?
Not, no. I would say not formally. I think, uh, you know, we, we use a system for employee relations, so probably, and we just in the last year, I'd say. So it's probably documented in some way, but it isn't, it wouldn't be a metric that I would say, "Let me see the report [00:23:00] on this." Yeah. So no, it, it wouldn't be that easy to, to find that, I don't think.
Yeah. So yeah, that would be interesting. But I think you're right. Or it's the how many employee relations situations did we resolve successfully- Yeah ... before they actually went to an investigation, went to a PIP, went to a termination. Yeah. Those types of things. I think, love that because those are all the things that y- you, no one sees that work, nor do I go to the CEO and say, "Did you know that last year we..."
It's not something that you would, that you would put on a metric. And sometimes people say, "Oh, like, why are you so busy?" It's like, do you realize how much work it does take to get- It's work ... to the right outcome- Mm-hmm ... for everyone, right? So if everyone walks away happy- Like engagement's up, motivation, development, people stay.
You create that environment, and so those m- some of those metrics I think s- are the right ones to say- Yeah ... how m- how many saves did we have here, right? Yeah. Or, or how many people were promoted that were maybe once on a [00:24:00] PIP, that's- Yeah ... a good metric, yeah. Yeah. I like that you call them saves, 'cause in customer success, that's like what you m- you're measured by saves in sometimes.
You know, it's just... Maybe not customer success traditionally, but I remember when I was at another company, it was sort of like we had a saves team, and it was, you know, the accounts that were escalated and they were so ready to cancel. It was much more of a transactional type business, and you were measured by your saves, and it's kinda like this could be- Absolutely
a version of HR saves. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. I think it's also like a, you know, I think that I would lean to document it, but not, but in a way where it's like, put it here so that if this manager comes to request this again, I just have the historical context. Absolutely. I see, okay, they requested this before.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we would have that. I'm just trying to think about what kind of format would it be in, but yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I know I kind of put you on the spot when I asked that- No ... 'cause it's like- yeah. And I probably... Someone from my team would be like, "No, no, we do-" "... track that, Sara."
Hey, this is a fake situation. None of these things are expressly saying- Yeah ... that this is how things are run at Shutterstock. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure we do. And look- [00:25:00] Yeah ... and, and a lot of times the managers aren't happy about that. Yeah. Because they think we're blocking them or stopping them.
Yeah. But, you know, we're, we're one, trying to make sure everyone's treated fairly, appropriately, and gets the best shot at you know, being able to be successful. And also, risk involved, right? Yeah. So there are a couple factors to that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true. Risk is always the thing, that it's just like the more you have written down, the more you have documented, the more you can just sort of like look and see, okay, is there a pattern here that we didn't see before?
I mean, it's a lot of you know, we do a lot of performance documentation at All Voices by request from a lot of our customers. Absolutely. That's why we created a workflow for it, so that someone could basically like submit for a PIP, and then HR can review it, and then say, "We're either moving ahead or we're not.
This is sort of like what it is." And I think that's what's gonna be interesting to see, is how that, how the PIP can get rebranded in some cases. 'Cause I think it's got... I think it just needs to s- we need to stop weaponizing it, and [00:26:00] this is sort of like maybe some steps that- Yeah ... kind of get us there.
Yeah. I mean, I, definitely in my career, one of the things that we did was track successful PIPs, right? People- Yep ... that were on a PIP that were not terminated, right? Yeah. And so I think that's a hu- that's a fabulous statistic to say, do you have the right coaching program? Yeah. Do you have the right metrics?
Do, can you, can, you know, how do you, communicate with employees in a way or, or, or, or change things so that they can be successful, right? Yeah. Change the way that, that you work with them or Yeah. Yeah. And that's a metric that just, like, by... That can connect to engagement, too, right? Because if people aren't engaged or aligned with the culture, they're not gonna fight for the PIP.
They're not... and we all know it takes a village to... It takes a village no matter what. But, you know, when someone is on a PIP, it's not just them getting themselves off of it. It's not just them and their manager trying to fight them off the PIP. They're leaning on their team. They're asking for more help.
Like, so it really does, you know, show a level of engagement of anybody who surrounds them to sort of say, like, "Hey, let's, let's get this." And also i- if that then is known throughout the organization and [00:27:00] people see that and feel that, it doesn't become this horrible thing. Yeah. "Oh, you're being put on a PIP.
You need some extra coaching." One of the things we did a few years ago is we said instead of saying, underperforming or performance not, we said approaching success. Ooh. So- I like that ... you're not success yet, but here's a few things that you need to work on. So it, it didn't necessarily mean, oh, this is a horrible, like, you're, you know, not achieving.
This is, oh, we- Yeah ... we need to do a few things so that you can actually be super successful, but you're just... so that, from an engagement perspective, does that change the, the feeling the employee has when they, when they're getting a review? Ugh. Yeah. This is bad. Wait, no. It means do these three things.
Do these two things. We'll help you do them- You'll get to success ... next time. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that because it's, the, it's a reframe. It just, everything needs to be a reframe. It's like it n- doesn't have to be all doom and gloom. It's just like, you know, if you're on a hill, it's like, I love that it's like you're approaching success.
You're getting there. It's such a good- You need to get to the top. We'll provide the tools and [00:28:00] resources for you. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not a psychologist, but I know that, positive psychology does help people. Like, it does, when it comes to development and things like that, like, you think about, you know, sort of the progress you're making, not the gap that you have to fill.
So that reframe does make all the difference. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I have one final question for you, 'cause believe it or not, we're at time. And I could definitely chat with you for a long time about all this stuff. So, um, this is probably appropriate for the theme of this particular scenario, but what is one assumption about HR that you think needs to be challenged?
I think that we that we're, you know, working for the management. I think that we are, uh, that, you know, don't go to HR to complain because you'll be, you know, tagged in a system that says you're a bad actor, and that, you know, they're doing, you know, they're doing, That they have the manager's best interests, right?
Mm-hmm. I think that is something that's always, made me have to rethink and rework my relationship with all employees so that they would not feel [00:29:00] that way, right? And it's hard work to get an employee population to feel comfortable. Yeah. That the default isn't, you know- We're gonna side with your manager.
We're gonna d- you know, we're gonna believe them before we believe you, or, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be out as a result of coming to HR. So I think that, to me, is probably the one that, that I sh- I've struggled the most with on trying to kinda undo at an organization, right?
Yeah. That they are, yeah, that they're not there for, for, to help everyone. They're there only for kind of protecting the business and the manager- and the management. Yeah. That's so well said. That's so well said. I love that. Thank you. I said, I feel like I've been saying that to everything you've been saying, like, "I love that."
Thank you. "I love that." I do. No, this was so fun. I loved it, and thank you for making, uh, this easy. Yeah. Oh, anytime. That's my goal, and thank you everybody for listening. I hope that, you know, you got some good insights from Sara out of this, you know, discussion and conversation and, you know, if you're curious about more things about performance or, you know, even just about managing accommodations feel free to [00:30:00] find either one of us on LinkedIn.
We hang out there, and, uh- Absolutely ... I'm always happy to give my unsolicited or solicited two cents. Me too. So. I, I love to chat. Same. All right thank you again, Sara, for being here, and thank you everybody for listening. Bye. Bye.