Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A journey exploring African masculinity through research, conversations, and personal reflection. The show examines what it means to be an African man today, drawing on academic studies and diverse perspectives from across the continent's rich cultures. Covering topics from personal growth and fatherhood to identity, vulnerability, and accountability. Hosted by a former humanitarian worker turned stay-at-home dad, this programme explores what it means to be a man today, engaging with nuance and difficult truths.
Akosua AA (00:00.625)
And I was looking at my CV to see when I when I my first publication that could be around masculinities was and I'm thinking it's two thousand and nine. So I've been doing this for a while actually. Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (00:52.91)
But think that's what makes it interesting. It's not only masculinity as in that that is a part of some of your work, but more sort of the broader like higher education, pop culture, gender, and power. So for me, that's the thing that really interested me looking at your work and your background. And I just wanted to feel like
Akosua AA (00:56.533)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (01:02.282)
Exactly.
Ralph OFUYO (01:23.706)
In the and and also one a couple of your lectures, I like the one that you did at the girls' school. I don't remember which, but you were at a girls' school and you were talking about how your classroom you're a social activist and your classroom is actually that's you don't you no longer go out into the streets, but you use it when you have people in front of you and you're talking about that. So I guess maybe
Ralph OFUYO (01:52.391)
maybe that's a question I was interested in. What does it actually mean in practice for you?
Akosua AA (02:04.787)
It means being very deliberate and intentional about bringing about change. So i in the classroom, for example, it's not that I am thinking, okay, he has important knowledge about subject X, Y, or Z. It's also with the consciousness that I hope that as students engage with these materials.
It may also bring about a shift in their thinking. And that's intentional for me. And I think for many many feminist scholars, for example, you know, this is non-negotiable. You know, there's a there's a goal. Sometimes I state it to my students explicitly that I'm hoping that as you engage with this material, you know, you might shift your thinking around this issue in this direction.
sometimes I'm less explicit about it. It depends on the context of the classroom, who the students are, you know, what what the vibe has been like in the classroom, if you like. there there was a year when the entire class was made up of men. So there was a different dynamic in the classroom. And it you know, the things that you can say differently or
approach differently than when you have both men and women in the classroom, right? So it's about the intentionality and the the deliberateness about that. Which which is like when you go on a march, you are hoping that okay, you are marching to the site of government, for example, and you have a goal that you are presenting a petition, it will be received, it might be acted on.
e there may be some immediate responses or not, right? Or you engage in action around a law that you want passed or not passed and you're doing specific actions. So for me that's the social activism part of classroom work. And this is not everybody's goal in the classroom. And in fact some people will say it should not be a goal that you should just share material with your students and allow them
Akosua AA (04:27.925)
you know, to make up their own minds. But I believe that most of us, even if we're not conscious of it, we're we're trying to persuade people about what we believe in. I don't think that there are any or many teachers who don't have strong opinions themselves and would prefer that their students, you know, share those opinions. how we do that differs it and and we do that also in the material that we choose obviously there will there will be some material that we do not share there'll be material that we do share and in in my class I I don't only share material that I agree with. I sometimes obviously share well not obviously but I do you know and my colleagues and I have always taught this class in collaboration with other scholars we share writings, publications that we do not necessarily agree with, so that students can themselves debate the issue, you know, between, let's say, two dissenting scholars, we will have an opinion. We hope that that the students will align with our opinion. Sometimes they persuade us also that perhaps, you know, one line of thinking that we may have had, you know,
Could we also perhaps shift our position or also see it in this other way? So really it's about the intentionality and deliberateness.
Ralph OFU YO (06:05.229)
And over that the the period that you have been standing in front of students, have you seen how students they debate, they push back the arguments they brought forth, the hypothesis, whatever. How has that shifted, if at all it has, in the in the sort of in the duration from when you started until now?
Akosua AA (06:31.263)
how have the students shifted or how have I shifted?
Ralph OFU YO (06:34.093)
How have they shifted in when they're sort of either debating amongst themselves or when they come back to you and say, okay, professor, you gave us this, but this is what you you're sort of sharing with us, but we see it differently. We see it this way.
Akosua AA (06:51.401)
You know, every cohort is different. So I would hesitate to say there's been sort of a trajectory of change. in my when when I first started teaching at the Institute of African Studies, we had a lot of our students being teachers from high schools, and also interestingly, a lot of religious leaders, pastors and priests and so on.
Akosua AA (07:19.373)
For the teachers, they needed a master's in order to be promoted. So a number of them opted for African studies for multiple reasons. So that was why we had that kind of a group. And among the religious leaders, let me say past they weren't I can't think of any Muslim leader that we had. So these are mainly Christian leaders who are an active
Christian service have you know belong to a denomination and are working there. And for many of them, they were coming in there almost coming into our class, not the masters in African studies as a whole, but those who decided to take the gender class felt that okay, there were some issues of inequality, some discrimination that women face either in the world or in the church, and that they might be better.
Position to understand and to respond to this by taking this class. So well-intentioned motives, sometimes with kind of a I won't say savior complex, but a savior approach. Like I have these women in my congregation, they are dealing with these issues not fair, not right.
where can I get some skills to address this and improve the situation for them. You you know, which is I which is great, I think. But the aspect of it that they sometimes needed to shift, I will say more than us, was they would come in seeing this more as a
individual woman or individual, you know, there are some individual women who need help and there are some individual men who are bad. And so I'll get the skills to deal with that in my congregation. Rather than their appreciation that these were systemic issues, sociocultural issues, and that you're not just fixing individual
Akosua AA (09:33.693)
men or women or helping individual men or women we need to. These are deep societal issues. my own shifting, I I will say that as I've aged and hopefully become wiser, I've also learned to listen more to my students. The tendency in the early days was to say
You know, but they would come up with something and I would say, but you need to read this, or but can you consider this? I've learned to listen more, to hear them to the end of their argument and to land and to not feel like I need to god, what this person is saying is so awful. I need to jump in and correct them, quote unquote. that's more about how I approach the the space than the
ideology if you like shifting that hasn't that hasn't shifted. I've had better understandings of nuances, I will say, to be more, you know, appreciative of yes, they are systemic issues and they are individual issues. And we all know that they depend on context, where you are, where you come from, your age, your ethnicity, your religion and all of that. It's it's it's one thing to know it theoretically.
And it's another thing to actually appreciate it with the people that you're in the space with. And I I want to believe that I've you know, that over the years I've learned to do that better. And of course, it also comes with its what should I say, reactions from young, feisty feminists who think, no, madam, you you're being too slow on this one. You need to.
Akosua AA (11:40.821)
You really need to silence this guy. He's talking rubbish right now. Okay. And I mean it is what it is. I think this is this is a function of age and experience and everybody who really wants to learn will get there, right? It's it's not my job to make a young person slow down and be less hasty.
think it's my job to help them to
To walk a a little bit in other people's footsteps. I'm I'm very much appreciative of grace. Grace has been extended to me in so many ways. you know, I am much more appreciative of my own privilege. And and so I am hopefully more understanding of.
You know, different situations, different people. And grace works slowly. You know, grace does not respond immediately to an issue. So you can appear to be dragging your feet when you are extending grace to people. Because you know, grace also gives people second and third chances.
But you also need to apply grace together with wisdom to know, okay, we've extended grace, but we're drawing the line here because we are not extending grace so that somebody can abuse somebody else. No, that's this is not the point. We are extending grace because we understand that this person is walking in a different set of shoes, has a different set of experiences and history, and we never know everything.
Akosua AA (13:32.639)
You know, we we always have only partial knowledge of a situation. So we must often be slow not to assess, but s but slow to, you know, to judge and prescribe punitive punishment. And of course the classroom I'm I'm saying this more broadly, but you know, punitive punishment in the classroom space can also take the form of the way in which you
negate what somebody is saying, right? Or the way in which you demand or expect certain responses from people and those who don't do it feel feel punished and those who do what you are expecting feel rewarded and you can create
inadvertently a space where some people feel they are more valued in the classroom than others. Sorry, that was a very long-winded answer to you.
Ralph OFUYO (14:37.461)
No, no, no, no, no. Perfectly fine. Perfectly fine for me. Because then it it helps me. like I said, my goal is to learn. I am on this journey where I really would like to look at different elements, concerning gender, concerning masculinity in general, African power s structures, the the the the things that drive the things that affect our day-to-day lives. And
I think you touched upon it a bit because I always sit here and think whenever I'm talking to my friends. classic example is during COVID time, and you hear one person who seemingly they went to school, they have a master's degree, they have a very job in a nice family. But to hear the things they talk about, specifically on vaccines, and you're like,
Like, dude, this thing. And so that has always been that that's sort of an example of my struggle with the topic of masculinity. And when I see people I know, or or just people in positions of power or privilege say or do something and quantify certain things. And so my struggle is as I go through this journey, I don't want to convince people. Like you said, I don't want to convince people, hey, this is what we should believe. I want to hopefully show people that it's okay to have an open mind and once in a while reflect and
Ralph OFU YO (16:59.007)
I looked at position X this way and projects that way. But now my challenge is what the things that sort of could help move the needle. Is it more an individualistic approach? Is it, are these things too big for us to tackle with? Do you stack one by one? Because like you said, each person comes into your class and sometimes they are just focusing on like, no, I just want to learn how to deal with this particular set of problems.
But is that the solution to what I believe is a society that has open minds to new ideas, even if you've been doing something as part of your tradition, customs for fifty years, hundred years, how do you get people to be open to new ideas, not necessarily convince them of new ideas? I don't know if that makes any sense here.
Akosua AA (17:52.895)
Yeah, absolutely. It makes makes a lot of sense and I think it presents us with a continuum that we are on because we live with individuals, we work with individuals, but we are society and societies, right? And they are i individuals do have issues. They are bad people, they are good people. they are bad governments, they are good governments or well maybe better governments. I don't know about good, but you know.
Ralph OFU YO (18:20.929)
I think better.
Akosua AA (18:23.231)
You know, they're there they are good churches and bad churches and better churches. There are good schools and bad schools and better schools and worse schools. So they they are the they are the the social spaces exist, civil society, NGOs, whatever it is, families. All of these spaces exist. Some operate better than others. The human beings in those spaces experience better well being, better joy, better hope, better health. And in some other spaces, they don't. They feel
less human, less respected and so on. So I mean we can look at larger spaces and see models that are more helpful and those that are not. But we're also dealing with individuals one at a time. In this in in my family, my immediate family, let me use that word. there's myself, there's my husband, we have two daughters, adults now, right? And we are individuals. We have our different personalities,
My husband and I came from similar but not same backgrounds. And so we, you know, we came with who we were into that space. And we've brought up our daughters together, but they're also individuals, they have their personalities. We tend to share certain values for the most part in this family. We you know, we prefer certain religious spaces to others, we
tend to vote in a particular direction or discuss politics in other countries. We, you know, we've we've influenced them obviously, but sometimes we disagree on on certain issues. So we have to do both. We have to deal with the individuals that we are in contact with to persuade them. Sometimes in this household we have maybe not that heated discussions, but you know, I'm I'm sure same in your household.
And you know, younger people, there's generational issues, they are trying to persuade us of certain things. We have become older and they say as you get older, you kind of slip to certain traditions, which when you were younger, you thought, wow, that really doesn't matter, right? And you realize that okay, there are certain traditions that are important. So you will have these intergenerational
Akosua AA (20:45.419)
discordances or disagreements sometimes. And and so if you if there's a particular issue that you hold with passion, you're trying to persuade somebody why your position is right and you're doing it with a particular individual. But when you're in a larger space, let's say the Network for Women's Rights, which is a an organization in Ghana that I'm a member of, we have a basic shared
belief in you know people's rights, how women should be treated and and equality. We tend to b all believe in the value of affirmative action at this moment in history. But then there are other issues that we disagree on because we are the a huge group of diverse people. So there's there are some core issues that we can
distill agreement around. There are other issues where we disagree, maybe not always in principle, but sometimes in method. And people try to persuade other people, obviously, about why one should take a certain line of action and not another. And that's important, especially if you you believe very strongly that people's well being
is impacted by a certain decision or lack of that decision. I think that it's your responsibility to try and change the systemic issues and not just deal with the the symptoms of those systemic issues. And whether you you know there are a variety of methods, whether you're doing it in the classroom, whether you're doing it through legal reform, whether you are on social and other media to educate, whether you're going to a
church or a mosque or a school.
Discussion group, whatever, those are spaces where you are hopefully providing evidence and not just speaking passionately from your heart because that's not enough to it's like okay, so that's what you believe, but so what? Right? So hopefully, some evidence to persuade people about your position. Of course, they can bring counter evidence, that's that's fair.
then we can look at it. So one human being at a time, or two or three, but also addressing the the systemic issues that requires, you know, a different methodology. And sometimes you don't have the luxury of time to deal with a particular issue where you okay, I'm going to spend the next five years persuading this group of people. No, some people's lives are at stake. We don't have the time.
To wait for us all to be on the same page. So in the in this moment, we're going to disagree with you and we're going to take certain actions with or without you so that something does not happen which is inimical to other people. You may not have persuaded people, but you've put a kind of a pause on this action that would have led to other people's.
you know, fracture of their their their humanity, if I can put it that way.
Ralph OFUYO (24:16.972)
the time element especially because there are just certain topics you start and you think, you know what, this I I'm not gonna get through to someone, even if you try and and that's the thing. I try to have my arguments or my positions depending on the context backed by okay, the the data, science, or hey, fine.
This is my opinion, but it's my opinion after speaking to 300 people and asking them the same exact questions. 30% of those people or 60% say X and Y. But I guess for some individuals, I guess it's that in ability to just no, I'm not gonna shift from this position because it's maybe a part of who they are. they as they they associate the identity to that person or some of their traits. Yeah.
Akosua AA (25:07.678)
Exactly.
Akosua AA (25:12.158)
And w and what are the implications if they shift? What are implications for who they are and the community that they belong to? Because communities are important and if I shift to your position, which maybe you've pers you've almost persuaded me about your position, but shifting to your position means that I must walk away from this other community. And what will that mean if I do not have that community? Yeah, maybe that community is
Ralph OFUYO (25:14.998)
Yeah, that is true.
Akosua AA (25:41.563)
slightly problematic, but if I walk away, maybe I have no community. So I'll stay with that problematic community and overlook certain aspects of it that I I'm not fully comfortable with, but it's okay. It doesn't affect me directly. I'm okay. So that's also a difficulty that that people have that I have.
Right? What does it mean? What what other communities will I have if I lose that community? What s safe spaces do I have? Who is there for me? And I've thought about this, for example, with Christian spaces, that there are some things that I I cannot deal with. And if it should mean that all the Christians that I know decide, well, Akusia is not a proper Christian and so we'll not we'll not invite her, we'll not deal with her.
Who do I have left? Because my faith, my personal faith is important to be. Yes, there's me and my God in my room. That's okay. But I don't see this God. I have never heard this God audibly. I have never felt this God hold me. So, yes, an important being in my life, which I I who I will not let go of. But the Christian community is real, it's tangible. So if I lose that.
Because I disagree with that Christian community so strongly on a particular issue that I can't stay. What does it mean? Okay, so I have my family, my immediate family, and some friends who I believe will not throw me away. But am I ready to make that sacrifice for this one issue, which really I could close my eyes to it and you know we can move on. And I and I think
Ralph OFUYO (27:23.062)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (27:35.615)
people don't reflect on they know it but they don't reflect on it that in a calculated way that if I make this dish decision it means that and what's my plan B? What will I do? Right? They I will be excommunicated from this church, let's say.
Ralph OFU YO (27:41.238)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (27:53.577)
What what's my plan B? I'll form will I form my own church? Have I found another's church that is more understanding of my views? Will I just, you know, worship my God at home with my immediate family? What will I but we we tend not to think in that way. It's it's it's it sounds too logical and we tend not to do relationships and issues of faith and beliefs in that kind of
Calculating way.
Ralph OFUYO (28:24.192)
Yeah. I think the closest I came to that, I I had to shift because growing up in Kenya, I had this idea and where I placed gay men just because of my environment, my upbringing. it wasn't a pleasant place. And then I moved to Southeast Asia and I ended up having a community around me
And there were gay men in that community, but and I I had to shift completely young single men we'd go work out in the gym every day, you know, trying to get better, fitter, you know, beach bodies as they call them. And this one guy who actually, like when my daughter was born, when he was the first person to show up to the hostel with a gift, like
He remembered things about my partner. she doesn't eat gluten. So on a birthday, he has a gluten-free case. and I'm like, from my understanding, and I'm thinking, but there's nothing wrong with this person. But then why should there be something wrong with this person? They're just a person like you. So that was really hard for me to shift and come across. I'm like, this is not a thing, you know.
Akosua AA (29:41.587)
Okay. Like isn't pleasant.
Ralph OFUYO (29:50.814)
It's not a thing at all. Yeah, yeah.
Akosua AA (29:53.269)
I think that's a very good example because homophobia and its attendant behaviors associated with homophobia are so not only prevalent in our societies, but they are also spaces that you're either in or out of, right? So if you suddenly start saying, Well, there's nothing wrong with this person or
This group of people and they are human beings like us and they have the right to love who they want to love and so on. It almost immediately moves you out of a certain other community because it's like you you can't have both. You can't say that homosexuality is wrong and is sinful, and also
y yes, we'll say we what what is it that we tend to say we hate the sin but love the sinner. But you c you c you can do that and continue to have a safe space in a community that s so sharply condemns you know people being gay or queer or however they tend to identify themselves. And remember I don't need to tell you, but you know, these these are lifestyles that have existed.
lifestyles, identities, personhoods that have it existed in our communities since time immemorial. So not only was the shift important for you, but it probably, I'm guessing, also meant that some people were no longer on your quote unquote side because you you had now shifted sides and they are like, okay, Ralph is now in this other group and so he can't be in our group.
Ralph OFUYO (31:46.444)
And and the jokes, Ralph, are you now thinking of becoming
Akosua AA (31:51.809)
Exactly. And and and and the f I mean h homophobia or no maybe homophobia is even too extreme. Discomfort with people who are queer or gay or who are different from us can be so strong that we don't know what to do with it. And so it's safer not to deal with it at all.
Ralph OFU YO (32:03.797)
think that I think that's correct. Yeah, that's better. Yeah.
Akosua AA (32:21.275)
rather than to say, yeah, I have some discomfort. And yes, I may not approve of this lifestyle or somebody identifying and s as as gay and saying that this is how they were born. I may have some discomfort with that because my religion tells me that it's wrong. And but he as a human being that I have met.
Ralph OFUYO (32:42.858)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (32:49.333)
Who is a good human being, if to all intents and purposes, they are a good human being. They may not even share my religion. So if my religion says, you know, homosexuality is wrong, but they don't share that religion, I can't I can't even I mean, I can't compel them. You know, they have a different world view, but they're a good person. And I'm I'm I'm not sure what to do with my discomfort. It's at least a space to be honest about rather than
Ralph OFU YO (33:06.407)
yeah.
Akosua AA (33:18.773)
to say you know, okay, the Bible says homosexuality. But my let me my reading of the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, it's a sin. And so therefore I'm not even going to enter into any discussion. I'm not going to work with somebody who is gay. I'm not going to read any of the science because that science must be in contradiction to the Bible. That's this is not a a a I don't find it a useful way.
To operate in this world, you know, that we are living in. And recognizing discomfort, having doubt is a difficult place to be, to acknowledge that I thought a certain way and now I have to shift it. It's it's it's it's not a it's it's it's not a comfortable place to be. Dealing with discomfort and doubt and even sometimes fear. You know, how do I how do I confront it?
Is is difficult. I I am more willing to be patient with people who can't do that. But at some point I'm like, at least let's let's be honest about what we believe or don't believe and and why. You know, that's the way I was brought up, or that's what I was told it for me is insufficient. And I say that in a a country like ours, which is very religious, hyper religious, when
Some of us have grow up in these very Christian families and have the means or students, children get scholarships and they go abroad and enter, they are young, 18, 19, maybe 20, 21. They enter spaces where people are now asking them, okay, why do you believe that? Then they are not able. It's like, okay, that's what I've been taught.
Ralph OFU YO (35:11.947)
Yeah, they they d they don't have those tools within them.
Akosua AA (35:15.497)
Tools to deal with somebody else's pushback on what's what they genuinely believe. And then now they have crisis of faith because it's like you know, and and learning to being exposed to having had the opportunity to to question and to confront doubt is
is a helpful thing to help to to enable you to believe what you believe more strongly. But critical thinking is not in our educational system has not been that helpful because we then the numbers are so so large that you know critical thinking requires more engagement. And if you've got a thousand students, that's difficult to do. But we we do ourselves a disservice.
where we don't allow ourselves to confront our questions and doubts. And and as again coming back to faith, and for me as a Christian, I'm like, if the God that I believe in cannot deal with my doubt and my questions, then that God is not big enough for me. Then please I need another God, right? Surely if I have doubts, if I have questions, if I am angry, disbelieving about something, and this God that I believe in can deal with
Acoshias nonsense if you like, accusations. Then what what God is that?
Ralph OFU YO (36:48.575)
He he's a classic African father.
Akosua AA (36:52.521)
You see. And then that classic African father, one day you leave home and you're like done with you, finished, you know, paid my dues. I'm now on my own. I don't need my classic African father anymore. That's you know, that's from my perspective is sad.
Ralph OFU YO (37:04.139)
Yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (37:12.459)
I agree with you 100%. And I I wanted also to ask something. From what I when I was reading up about you, there was you you conducted research across six different cities. I think four were in Africa, I think two were not in Africa. And I think from the information I have, something called provider expectations now.
As I understood that, it's how I understood that is something that has me moving here to a different country with my family, not being able to secure employment, you know, in the traditional sense, bringing home the bacon, paying bills, etc., etc. It's something that I struggled with as an African man. And for some time I was
but why can't I get a job? But but at the same time, I am next to my kids and I am with my kids every day. And I wake up and my daughters like hearing them saying, Papa, going to pick them up from school or walking with them to school and them running up to you. So there's a conflict where, on one hand, I am very happy. I feel privileged. I feel blessed to have this opportunity.
But then on the other hand, I'm like, surely there's something I'm missing because I'm not buying them the things. And it's not about, I don't personally believe that kids should have the best of the best. No, I think they should have things that actually help them in their day-to-day like not the worst and not the best, but I I think you understand what I'm meaning. But I don't believe in the best. But I can't, when I want to.
give them those things that I feel are necessary. So this is something I really struggled and I wanted to find out, is this sort of the the theme, something similar you found or you're talking to young men, or that provider expectation that you reference is something different?
Akosua AA (39:25.677)
I I I think you probably captured the what's what's the word? The lack of clarity about roles that a man may feel in in that is intersecting with what his immediate family, if he's married and has children.
feels what his extended family, what is in laws, what the larger society of these things are intersecting. Sometimes they're in contradiction and sometimes they are not. I just want to list I was trying to list for myself where we went so to help me remember some of our case. So we were in Kampala, we were in Accra, obviously we're in Nairobi, two different groups. We're in Cape Town, we're in Pretoria, we were in London, we were in Philly, Philadelphia.
And and these were all young men. I also had a conversation in Germany with older men. I hope I'm not missing. And they had one in Canada with much younger men, but didn't really analyze those data in great detail. So and and I always quote something that one of the young men in the Accra conversation said.
Which was that a young woman who is unemployed is marryable, one can marry her, a man can marry her, a young man who is unemployed is not marryable, one cannot marry him, right? So this this term marriable, and if you think of it from the perspective of in-laws.
You have a daughter, she's making it in the world, she has or is soon to have a decent job, and then her partner is maybe he has great skills, but he's in an industry that has shut down, he's unemployed, or she has a higher education than him. It's much more likely that the woman's parents are gonna be like
Akosua AA (41:39.221)
We want d do we really want this this daughter of ours to marry this young man than if you flip if you flip it. The man's parents are less likely to be uncomfortable if the young woman he's going to marry is currently unemployed, has less education than him. Their prospects are not that great. okay. Whatever work she was doing, she lost her job, she's unemployed. They they are more likely to feel like, okay
We wanted to contribute to the household but it's it's fine, right? And and this expectation that we have of of of men is so
I d I don't want to say it's carved into a DNA, but it's it's very difficult to shift it.
I have daughters. if the young man has prospects, he's not lazy, I won't be uncomfortable. But if I feel like this guy about the past five years, well as we say in Ghana, Charlie, I'm not I'm not seeing his show. I'm like, I'm not sh seeing his show. Hmm, you know what's up.
Ralph OFU YO (42:50.345)
Ralph OFU YO (42:53.659)
Yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (42:59.221)
But but you see the position I am in.
Akosua AA (43:02.791)
You see for me, for me as personally, me, Acusia, if my daughter's income could take care of a family and they have children or are planning to have children, they take a decision, you know what? One of us has to stay home and look after these children at least for the next six years.
Job that she has can take care of things or where they are located or for this season in life. It makes more financial sense for her to go out and for him to stay home. And he's not being lazy. He's looking after the kids. Work has to be done in the house. He's doing the laundry, he's preparing the meals. Somebody has to do that anyway. If you were going to employ somebody, you'd be paying them. That's money going.
Ralph OFU YO (43:57.323)
Correct.
Akosua AA (43:57.683)
If that's the kind of young man me, Acussia, I'm cool with it. That is not the common position. I agree entirely, because there's this expectation, you know, from religion, from from traditional African societies, I will say less so, because in in many of our societies there was the expectation that everybody must work hard. It was this it was not a gendered thing that
Men work hard and women are quote unquote just at home. Even women who were in domestic spaces, cooking, caring for children, were expected to do something in addition. You're either trading or you're doing, you know, some subsistence farming or you're rearing some animals or something. That
Expectation was there. Among many groups, when a young woman is going into marriage, she's given some resources as capital to start something. It's either seeds or it's some young goats or it's money or whatever, because the understanding is that everybody is contributing to that space. So this notion that it was only the men who were the quote unquote providers is not historically accurate.
Of course the the marriage ceremonies will show that we are sort of giving our daughter into even in matrilineal societies, you're giving your daughter into, you know, another family, they come and ask for hand in marriage. But women were expected to work to be economically
contributing to households, right? So the the this shift of the responsibility if you like for provision predominantly to men is unfortunate and I belie believe it's a very
Akosua AA (46:01.715)
European, middle, and upper class understanding of families. Because working class people did not have the luxury, one person is is going out to provide, the other one is quote unquote just managing the the home. That was not an option that poorer and working class people had. And we have taken this over in our modern work environment.
also legally because in Ghana for example when under under colonial rule if you were working in the civil service if a woman working in the civil service got married she was expected to leave the job be because you there will be a husband that she must go and take care of and family.
A man in the civil service who got married, there was no question you could and and in fact I I remember when I was doing my PhD and I was speaking to one of the professors at the Institute of African Studies, Professor George Hagen. He said that this is exactly what happened to his parents. They both worked in civil in the civil service. When they decided to get married, she had to to quit because because the man will
Take care of the household, we'll be the provider. This was the automatic understanding. And this was British colonial ideology. This was not ours. And we have taken it and held on to it so fast and so strong. We are not ready to it's diff it's difficult to shift it because the the religious spaces have also reinforced it. Our textbooks have kind of reinforced this, you know.
so diffic dif very difficult to shift and and and I will add that the current, the manosphere and all that it's
Akosua AA (48:00.605)
throwing at all of us, but throwing at young men in particular also reinforces this that you've got to be in charge. And to be in charge, you've got to be the provider. And to be the provider you have to make lots of money. And how you make that money also does not exist. You know, does not matter and how you are seen and the cars and your beach body and all of that has to be there. Otherwise you're not a real man. None of those conversations and I don't listen to many of them, so I could be wrong.
None of those conversations talk about what you said in terms of the relationship that you have with your children. The fact that they know you. You know, not you are not just in and out the door providing the quote-unquote bacon. They know you, they have a relationship with you. Not to mention the relationship that the the person has with their partner. That that is not talked about, right? And these are not.
Things you can you can measure them, yes, but you will measure them best in the long dura, not you know, in it in in the immediate. It's it's like, okay, now I'm seventy, what kind of relationship do I have with my children? Yesterday a friend of ours came to visit with us and he has recently gone through a divorce and and he he has three adult children.
And he says the the most precious thing that has come out of that marriage for him is his relationship with his children. He has a very close relationship with his adult children. All three of them a daughter and two s a son and two daughters has a close relationship with them to the extent that one of his daughters broke up with a boyfriend of many years, and the first person she called was her father.
First person. How many men can claim that if their daughter or son goes through a breakup, they will be the first person? Probably a friend, possibly their mother. Father is like number eight on the list at all. That is a precious gift that you cannot buy with the most amazing high paying job.
Ralph OFU YO (50:15.102)
Yeah,
Akosua AA (50:26.537)
In this world, you can't. And if you don't spend time with your children, I'm not saying that provide providers who go out into the workplace cannot have those relationships with their children. You can obviously women also go out to work outside the home and they have they still have relationships with their children. But this expectation that the man has to earn more, some of the young men
Spoke to is like, yeah, if she's earning the same as me or less, that's cool. But if she's earning more than me, yeah, can deal with that. It's it's difficult if you are in that high-paced job to maintain these relationships with your children. And I know that in the reality of the situation, people may not measure it that way. It's like, okay, I I'm I'm not bringing home $15,000 a month, but I have this amazing relationship with my children.
You almost you want to have both. But the fact of the matter is, if you are at the top of this professional, you will not have that time. So a man who decides, I'm going either decides out of choice or circumstance that there's an opportunity for me to build this relationship, to take care of the home, the practical things that need to be done in the home. Honestly, should be validated.
And it's something that we need to do consciously. I think is part of what a countermanosphere conversation must be about. But in any case, that manosphere the the picture of manhood that that space is conveying is actually even a fiction. I mean nobody nobody can do the things those guys are pretending.
Ralph OFU YO (52:18.313)
No.
Akosua AA (52:19.871)
To have, they are not telling the full story, just like the trad wives are also not telling us the full story about this amazing me. I'm this stay at home mom and I'm doing all this and it's wonderful. My husband comes home, I'm nicely dressed and here I am, darling. Can I take your bag and dinner is ready and this is They are also lying. In this modern era we're living in, it's it's it's a fiction that we should
Ralph OFU YO (52:35.752)
Yeah, yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (52:40.04)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (52:45.761)
counter counter discourse if if that's if that can be a verb. We must actively say it is not it is not true. You can't. Nobody can have it all. It is a it is a fiction. And so let's celebrate men who are doing their best, either for you know, for whatever reason they are they are doing their best for for themselves and for their families.
Ralph OFU YO (53:15.154)
I I think that's a really good sort of simple thing. Like men were doing their best because yeah, those I I have spent it's it's an ungodly amount of time on the manosphere and the trout wives just because it was as part of the research I'm trying to do, just to figure out what and the if I could simplify it, yes, there's the perception of wealth, of because it's
wealth and women and buying things but there's no there's no perception of joy you know happiness that it it doesn't exist it's I'm like yeah but fine even even a lion doesn't hunt 24 hours in a day it sits and chills and relaxes and you eat a meal and you go relax you you play around with the but so for me this it
Akosua AA (53:48.681)
Mm.
Akosua AA (53:54.343)
Exactly. Exactly.
Akosua AA (54:04.577)
Exactly.
Ralph OFU YO (54:12.934)
It just
Akosua AA (54:14.177)
And humanity is absent. You see joy is absent and humanity is absent.
Ralph OFU YO (54:17.194)
No, no, I agree, I agree. Before I let you go, I know we had a very limited time. I wanted to just ask about 715. How now it's is the introduction of storytelling into your your your your skill set?
How do you see that? Is it something that you now eventually will shift and focus on storytelling only, or just no, this is gonna complement me as a scholar, me as an academic, me as a professor?
Akosua AA (54:54.549)
Would say and thank you for introducing 715 House into this conversation. I would say complimenting scholarly work, but I envision that the storytelling will be where more of my emphasis will go. I mean, I'm a retired professor, I'm not obligated to publish scholarly articles when
We not seven one five House, but when myself and many of the people that I work with in Seven One Five House did a film starting twenty nineteen and the film was ready in twenty twenty two that tells the stories of a series of women activists.
Ralph OFU YO (55:44.58)
I love it. It was very beautiful.
Akosua AA (55:46.815)
Thank you. Thank you. We had an amazing director, Aseye Tamaklo, shout out to Asey. we at that time I was already and and this wasn't my first pop culture project as an academic. And and maybe I'll talk about one of the earlier ones. Because it also has to do with masculinities, that one in a in a way. Hopefully more than when women speak. But anyway, when women speak happened.
Or when I suggested to my colleague Kate Skinner, let's do a film, it it it was a lot about the moment that we are in, and are people reading these scholarly articles, and you know, they have their space, and if you're in the academy, you have to do them. It's you know, it's part of your your job requirement. But because I'm an activist and I, you know, this this the research must have reach an impact. You are always thinking.
You know, how can I do that? And now we are in a moment where film is is more important and other forms of cultural production I I don't want to say respected more, but maybe given more space to to be part of conversation. So it was a an and it was a good time to take that opportunity. So I see my emphasis going there more. I'm not
Ralph OFU YO (56:59.786)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (57:14.089)
I haven't been trained to write story. I mean, academics write, but we write in a certain way and the jargon and all of that. So I I haven't been trained to write in that way. And of course they are amazing storytellers who haven't been trained to write in that way. Just by way of a sidebar. Yesterday I was at an event.
Ralph OFU YO (57:22.346)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (57:37.983)
That on domestic on violence against women, it was sharing a short story by a woman called Peace Mid Day. Peace is an academic. Her her focus is on peace and security, violence and so on. But she's also a writer, a writer of fiction. There are not many academics who combine
both of those roles. But she has done it for a while. She has her first book was called is called His Only Wife. You can look for it. It's very, very interesting story. So there are men not many people who can do that effectively. And I don't see myself being a brilliant creative writer. But I can still tell stories i in in my own way and with other people. So
for for example in when twenty twenty six, twenty, twenty-five, yes. Last year I was Claudaki Chair at the Nordic Africa Institute and the Department of Peace and Conflict Research in Uppsala, Sweden. And my proposal for when I was applying for the chair was, you know, to put it simply to talk about justice and stories of hope. And the stories that I am trying to tell
are not it it cre it's creative nonfiction really and and that I see myself doing more of not so much fiction but I do see myself working more with creators of fiction through theater, through film, spoken word, whatever, in in a supportive role because
Ralph OFU YO (59:07.602)
Okay, okay.
Akosua AA (59:32.221)
As I said, I don't I'm not obligated to be writing these scholarly pieces and people are not going to be reading them anyway. But I can also speak, you know, I d I do enjoy speaking. So what I might have put in a published piece I can do as a keynote lecture. So it's it's still the the the scholarly bit, but yes, I do see myself doing more of the storytelling and I w want to throw in this pitch about
Ralph OFU YO (59:50.388)
Yeah, yeah.
Akosua AA (01:00:01.129)
work that we did under a project, I'm gonna say at least 15 years ago, if not twenty, that was called Pathways to Women's Empowerment. The the lead PI was Techwa Meinu, senior my senior sister in in the trenches and in this academic journey. And we and it was called Pathways to Women's Empowerment. At the time Diffid was supporting this women's empowerment kind of work.
Ralph OFU YO (01:00:11.423)
Mm-hmm.
Ralph OFU YO (01:00:30.612)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (01:00:31.813)
And the UK development agency at the time, which was and we are like, you can you you can't empower people. You can lead them into spaces where they can empower themselves. You can give them tools, education, knowledge, but you cannot empower someone. They have to empower themselves. So the project was called Pathways to Women's Empowerment.
Ralph OFU YO (01:00:35.198)
Major.
Ralph OFU YO (01:00:58.484)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (01:00:59.469)
And myself and a colleague Awu Asiedou, she's in Theatre Arts, decided that the slice of the project that we were interested in working in was looking at song lyrics and what they say about women. Of course, when you're looking at what anything says about women, you're also vicariously saying what they say about men. And so we we
Ralph OFU YO (01:01:24.714)
True.
Akosua AA (01:01:28.107)
contacted one of the best known musicologists on popular music, John Collins, who has this huge archive of music. And we had research assistants who made selections of songs. We worked with him also to do some purposive selection of songs from the fifties to at the time the early two thousands. And w we looked at the lyrics.
And we're doing evaluation. What do they say about women? And then we had a workshop with some musicians. most of them were men, but there were a few women as well. And we're like, okay, he here he had a word the words of this song on this on this it wasn't even a screen, it was those papers that you wrote. Exactly. So let's talk about this. What is it saying? You know, what message is it conveying? Conversations. I have to say most of the
Ralph OFU YO (01:02:16.803)
The flip charts, yeah.
Akosua AA (01:02:27.487)
musicians that we are invited were like members of the choir. They were not really they were not contradicting us too much. But we had conversations and you know, the idea was how can we write more empowering lyrics, even you know, that than the other conversations about well, this is what the industry wants and the videos they want gyrating female bodies and, you know, the video vixens and how that helps you to sell your music and so on.
Ralph OFU YO (01:02:46.928)
Yeah,
Akosua AA (01:02:52.819)
And and we said, Well, you look at certain genres of music, jazz, for example, does not do that. So it's possible. Right? so that was a project that then we had a song competition at at the end. There were three three well, winner, first runner up, second runner up and quote unquote produced video of the song. I mean, this is so long ago now, if you
Ralph OFU YO (01:03:12.06)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:03:18.687)
I don't even know if if where I would find it, but yeah, I'm sure anybody looking at it today will be like, wow, that's so unprofessional. Doesn't look doesn't look good. But these were our goals at the time. So I've been doing that kind of storytelling in a way without being aware that I was doing storytelling. And even when I'm speaking in a keynote or
Ralph OFU YO (01:03:25.64)
Yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (01:03:29.341)
Yeah, no.
Akosua AA (01:03:47.784)
I I will
Sometimes it's very intentional because you've prepared for your keynote. You you've got it there. And other times it comes out in the QA. There will be stories. There will be an anecdote. There will be an experience, mine or somebody else's. And people relate to that so well. It's it's like, wow, okay, this that's that was exactly my experience. Same thing happened to me. And you know, s so yes, I do see myself moving
Ralph OFU YO (01:04:06.035)
Okay.
Akosua AA (01:04:20.895)
more in that direction and I you know I enjoy it. Stor stories are powerful. I think we as academics we know that but we it's it's like the poorer cousin in the family. You know, you you you tend not to. Are you still there? Because my thing says trying to connect. Hello
Ralph OFU YO (01:04:36.207)
I lost you.
Akosua AA (01:04:47.285)
Hello? Hmm.
Akosua AA (01:04:54.516)
Hello.
Ralph OFU YO (01:04:59.728)
I lost you.
Ralph OFU YO (01:06:03.197)
I lost it just for a bit.
Akosua AA (01:06:06.39)
it was telling me that my internet connection was not.
Ralph OFU YO (01:06:09.819)
you're back, you're back.
Akosua AA (01:06:11.8)
Yeah, I remember what I was saying. But anyway, that stories are powerful and that's important.
Ralph OFU YO (01:06:16.039)
No, no, no. I I I love stories and as you were actually talking about your the project you did on music lyrics, it it's it's really strange because now there's so for this project I'm trying to do different things. One is conversations like this, and then the conversation where it's our essays. I just pick a story and I try to I pick an issue that I have and then I try to tell a story around it. The most recent one I did.
was about cycling in general, not comparing you cycling in Europe and cycling in Nairobi, Kenya, but not comparing, and Europe is better no, about the structures and systems that sort of enabled Europe to build the infrastructure that it has, while those same similar structures
Actually, sort of suppress the these things that actually s could make cycling better for that random person, just like not the professionals. It wasn't focused on professionals. But I also did remember to focus.
Akosua AA (01:07:25.784)
Okay, so I think we're supposed to be the bicycle for their day-to-day lives.
Ralph OFUYO (01:07:31.611)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the recreational cyclist, you know, the one who wants a weekend, or let's cycle to place X twenty kilometers, thirty kilometers, like that. But and then I also pointed, yeah, but also, yeah, I'm not saying that Europe is perfect because they have problems. Bridges collapse, roads are in disrepair. So and and I hope people could get what I'm saying. I'm talking more about leadership, essentially, African leadership and other failure. And so the next one.
I'm actually looking at music because I grew up in the listening to Jay-Z, Nas, all of this. You mentioned the video vixens. Yeah, we we knew them by and that there was no internet back then, but we knew them. Excuse me. But my essay sort of wants to look at, okay, fine. We did listen to a lot of that music. And yes, looking back, yes, some of the in fact a lot of the lyrics were
unforgivable, but but then I look at my life where I am. So essay is gonna be okay, yes, I listened to that, but what did I take away from that? Because parts of this music was about perseverance, was about ambition, was about focus. And so yeah, I listened to that, and then looking at the music my dad used to listen to, and the older people that now we would never go anywhere near that music.
Akosua AA (01:08:34.316)
Mm-hmm.
Ralph OFU YO (01:09:02.227)
But however, now I'm in my 40s and now visiting my friend Nairobi and which song, yes, we can play that song by Jay-Z and yeah, we'll of course this was the song, but we'd also just as easily put something by Franco or Taboule and just and that and that Roomba, the banger. And we feel more comfortable with that now at home when you're just chilling and talking. So
And so this is what what my essay is gonna be about. So I was very happy to hear you talk about that, yeah.
Akosua AA (01:09:37.72)
Yeah, and to be fair, maybe the lyrics are more explicit now, but I'm listening to some of the old songs and I'm not going to repeat any lyrics. It's just that I will not let some young people be listening to me and say, hey, the professor said that, I will not.
Ralph OFU YO (01:09:44.156)
Yes.
Ralph OFU YO (01:09:50.793)
I mean you can, we we don't we don't
Ralph OFU YO (01:09:59.402)
They'll say the professor is a bad ass. That's
Akosua AA (01:10:04.722)
I don't know about that. Some people will judge me. I don't want to be judged. some of those lyrics, and I shouldn't be afraid to be judged, I'm not. Anyway, some of those lyrics were very sexually explicit in code. But the people who understood the code and much of that was either pro-
Ralph OFUYO (01:10:10.825)
True, true, true.
Akosua AA (01:10:33.72)
If it was American music, because I wasn't from there and I didn't come from the US and I didn't grow up in the hood and the language, I did not understand that this what they were saying. And I would sing it along merrily and I'm thinking, you know, as an adult, I was like, oh my God, this is what I was saying. That was not very respectful of women, right? I love Fela, some of Fela's songs, honestly.
So I don't think it's, we didn't have video in the same way. So I could imagine that if those songs had videos accompanying them, they would have also been problematic from a feminist perspective. What are they saying about women? And as you said, a lot of music comes from a space where people are dealing with the tangible issues.
hip-hop or it's rap. There's also there may be stuff in there that's problematic when it comes to gender relations but there are also other issues in there and there are some people I will not listen to because their own lives also don't line up with respect. So for me it's not only the songs but it's also your life. know what are you doing?
in your private life, how are you abusing women, all these accusations of rape against you. And so I want to listen to your music. For me, that's a problem. But you know, we're listening to Tupac. OK, there's a message that's there. And let's look at the package. Right. And what else is in that package?
Let's have a conversation about some of, you know, there some words, the N word, the B word that do not mean the same thing today as they did 20 years ago in different communities. And they are insiders who are allowed to use them in particular ways that the...
Akosua AA (01:12:46.282)
I mean, if a young woman says to another young woman who's her friend, you're my bad bitch, she's really not using the word in the same way as a song 20 years ago is calling a woman a bitch and asking for her to be dealt with and abused. And you need a certain level of knowledge about that space in order to appreciate it or participate in it. But I have found back to stories that
Ralph OFUYO (01:12:54.931)
Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (01:13:04.573)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:13:17.112)
And it's also, I think it's because Africans work so well with stories, but also a generational thing. That when we use film and fiction in our teaching, it's like, you don't have to say too much. People get the point. the theory is important. I believe that theory is very important. It helps us to think and to categorize. But sometimes the story...
Ralph OFU YO (01:13:32.393)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (01:13:45.973)
says in, in, you know, fewer pages than the theoretical piece, or maybe more pages, but it's you read it, and you get it. Here, we're talking about patriarchy, but what is patriarchy? What is this concept of patriarchy? It's a big word, as they will say, big English. What does it really mean? How do you break it down for somebody to understand? They read a story, they're like, okay, I get this is what
Ralph OFU YO (01:13:58.057)
Yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (01:14:12.093)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:14:12.928)
you mean when you use the term patriarchy. So can we go back now to the theoretical piece and sort of unpack it and, you know, what is it, where does it come from, how do we deal with it and so on. And then we can go back to the story and look at the protagonists and see, you know, how did they in that piece deal with this amorphous concept that's quite easily defined.
Ralph OFUYO (01:14:35.314)
Mm-hmm.
Ralph OFU YO (01:14:40.937)
Professor, thank you. I I I have no words. Thank you for your time. it's been a pleasure listening to you and of course I wanna sp
Akosua AA (01:14:50.52)
I hope this is not our last conversation.
Ralph OFU YO (01:25:30.076)
You need two people, you need two partners who are working together, trying to find a balance between the two styles and to know where you're going, like to have that, okay. And this is what I think why my partner now is more open, because I tell her, listen, that is the I want to give my daughters the tools that they'll have to make good decisions for themselves. So
Akosua AA (01:25:38.879)
Yes.
Akosua AA (01:25:53.205)
Hmm.
Akosua AA (01:25:57.653)
Absolutely.
Ralph OFU YO (01:25:59.481)
If you hear me say or what I do when I'm punishing them or when I'm saying something and that conflicts with my vision, then please call me out. Call me out on that one. But I want you to trust, like when I'm saying something, when I'm just give me the give me a bit of rope, so to speak, to see where we end up. Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:26:10.707)
Mm. Mm.
Akosua AA (01:26:20.405)
Well, I'm loving hearing it and it would be interesting to, you know, to, I'm thinking now as a researcher, to hear what your daughters say today and what they say in five years and what they say in 10 years as they, are you still there? Did you freeze again?
Ralph OFU YO (01:26:37.384)
I can switch off my videos well.
Akosua AA (01:29:12.165)
Hello. Hi. I don't know what I couldn't join via my phone because it says I should download the app and that was So anyhow. You were gonna ask a last question.
Ralph OFUYO (01:29:13.062)
Hello.
Ralph OFUYO (01:29:19.43)
No no no don't don't loud it's fine, it's fine, no need. Yeah.
Yes. If you could recommend one book, what would it be and why? And it can be any fiction, what it can be anything. Which book and why?
Akosua AA (01:29:42.715)
Which book and why I should have prepared for this question.
Ralph OFUYO (01:29:44.966)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:29:48.531)
having read so many books, what would be
Ralph OFU YO (01:29:53.68)
And don't worry about the title or the author specifically. We c we can find that.
Akosua AA (01:30:00.003)
You know, I read it's it and it I guess I would answer this question differently depending on when you would have asked the question, the moment that I'm in. But I'm I'm gonna do two. Actually I'm gonna do three, please. So the the the first one, I just mentioned His Only Wife by Peace Midier. It's it's almost like young adult fiction because it's a very
Ralph OFUYO (01:30:15.622)
Perfect, perfect.
Akosua AA (01:30:28.685)
easy story to follow and it's it's fun but it's a it's it's it's not an easy story but is written in a very when I say simple, not simplistic, but yeah, anybody could read it and it talks and maybe I shouldn't it talks about a man who whose parents make him marry a second wife for whatever reasons, tradition and so on. And the and this
young woman who is sort of pushed into this by her family who are poorer and so on, but eventually falls in love with this man and and then realizes that he he does like her, appreciate her, is attracted to her, but he has a first wife, woman, who is even maybe more important to her. Anyway, eventually she leaves. She's like, Okay, I'm not doing this. And
you know, just the way she navigates the story and h his his role in it. He's almost like the the man who is caught between two women and his mother and is not able to take a decision. And then you wonder what goes on in his head. two other books. There's Wizard of the Crow by Gugi Wateongo, which that book is amazing. And I I I'm
Ralph OFUYO (01:31:47.952)
Uh-huh. I I love that book.
Akosua AA (01:31:53.423)
I met Googie when we were I did. I met I met I've probably met him twice, but through a colleague who teaches Cecilia Lynch teaches at University of California, and he he was a professor there and so we threw her, we managed to invite him to the Institute of African Studies fiftieth anniversary at the time I was director. I was like, We need some mega keynotes, can you help us?
Ralph OFU YO (01:31:55.332)
wow.
Ralph OFUYO (01:32:05.842)
Okay.
Ralph OFU YO (01:32:18.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Akosua AA (01:32:21.537)
So he came and he also had he and a feminist scholar called Fatusau, who is Senegalese, had we organized a conversation between them and high school students, which was just fantastic, fantastic. So he had he had copies of his book with him, I believe. So I bought two copies for my daughters and my younger daughter said, I don't know if she said it then or she said it recently. She was a teenager then and she's gonna be 30 now, and she says
This is one of the most amazing books that she has ever read. And I hadn't read it then. I bought it for her. He signed it, read it. And then I was reading Wizard of the Crow. And I'm like, this book is amazing. It's funny. It's well written. The prose is fantastic. It talks about our context. It's science fiction isn't the word, but it's, you know, what's what's the genre? it's it's it's just an amazing book.
Ralph OFUYO (01:32:57.064)
Mm-hmm.
Ralph OFU YO (01:33:16.893)
Yeah.
Yeah, agree.
Akosua AA (01:33:21.261)
And it's what? 300, 400 pages? I'm like, if a writer can captivate a teenager with a book like this, and she can say as a young adult that it's one of the most amazing books she's read, that's that's fantastic. It's it's it's just it's humorous, it's real, it's it's thoughtful, it's it's also hopeful. So I love that book.
Ralph OFU YO (01:33:35.346)
Mm-hmm.
Akosua AA (01:33:49.741)
And then I'm thinking of one by my god, why is his name gone out of my head? James Baldwin. And I I'm trying to remember the title of the book, but it's it's the one that's autobiographical, semi-autobiographical. It's about a a a young boy growing up with his mother and
Ralph OFU YO (01:34:00.24)
Uh-huh.
Akosua AA (01:34:18.265)
stepfather and you know, all the and and then the the role of the church, his stepfather is extremely religious and you know, the abuse psychological and so on that also happens in these church spaces and how this young man is dealing with his relationship to the Christian faith that is being presented to him, but also his attraction
to a man and we don't we that one is treated not very explicitly but we see you know how how the an adolescent teenage boy is is navigating that space and of course we know that James Baldwin himself was gay so you know and and also very very well written you can you can relate
the characters. So in all of these books, it's my relationship to the characters that really and and the relationship is different. his only wife, you the the the the characters are not they are drawn in broad, bright strokes. Whereas with with the Wizard of the Crow and I think Baldwin they are painted in
Ralph OFU YO (01:35:17.554)
Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (01:35:21.725)
Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (01:35:39.0)
Okay.
Akosua AA (01:35:46.723)
In more fluid colors, so that the you know the characters are more complex, but yet in all of these cases, you I I at least formed a relationship with the characters. And for me, when I'm reading a book, I have to have a relationship with the characters. There have been some you know prize-winning books, and I read them and
Ralph OFUYO (01:36:01.745)
Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:36:12.519)
I'm like, I don't know these people in the books. There are people isn't it's an interesting story. It's well written, but yeah, okay, whatever. But characters have to I have to be able to remember them and to think about them after I've read the book and wonder, you know, what would they do if this story had another couple of chapters? How would they resolve these issues? What would they do? So yeah, that would th th those would be thank you for giving me three choices. So thanks.
Ralph OFUYO (01:36:24.38)
Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (01:36:38.192)
I think No, no, no, it's absolutely is the is the last book, Is it "Go Tell It on the Mountain"?
Akosua AA (01:36:45.581)
Is it that one or
Ralph OFU YO (01:36:47.568)
It's like semi autobiography. I think it captures the the mother son relationship and the church.
Akosua AA (01:36:50.28)
Yes. Yes. Is it go tell it on the mountain? Because I can see I can see the two that one and another one sitting by my bedside and the publisher is the same. So the covers look the same. And I can't remember which one is go tell it on the mountain and the other one. I think yeah, it's probably that one. And I'll I'll confirm. Yeah. Thank you. This has been fun.
Ralph OFUYO (01:36:56.122)
Yes, it's good to listen to Martin, yeah.
Ralph OFU YO (01:37:14.746)
As I no, no, for me, for for me, I I really loved it and thank you so much. And I will bother you again for sure. Absolutely, absolutely.
Akosua AA (01:37:22.523)
Please do. Please do. And I hope your your podcast makes waves and impacts far beyond what you can imagine.
Ralph OFU YO (01:37:29.832)
If I switch and start debasing women or yes, definitely. Remember you you talked about how writing academia and journals no one reads it.
Akosua AA (01:37:40.437)
No, no, if you could.
Akosua AA (01:37:47.931)
You see, you see, but bueno
Ralph OFUYO (01:37:49.052)
But we still do it. I I tell my kids now we do the hard things because they are hard. That's why we do them. And because it's the right thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:37:56.23)
Mm.
Akosua AA (01:37:59.801)
Exactly. And the and the and and one can do maybe maybe you'll not get the same number of hits and likes and read this is and read that. But sometimes people stumble into spaces or they are recommended by others and they have an impact, even though you know, they have an imp they have a serious impact beyond the yeah, I listened to this and it was great and
I'm vibing to it. Okay, what am I clicking on next? No. That's that's not what you're about. So hey.
Ralph OFUYO (01:38:29.298)
Yeah.
Ralph OFUYO (01:38:33.98)
No, no, no. We as we create something, we put something out there that I am proud of, that it was it was well thought out. It I found it interesting. And I hope if it if it benefits at least one person in the world, then I am okay with that. Because this I'm doing it for me. I'm very selfish for me first, and just documenting the journey in hope that it helped one person. That's all I need. Yeah.
Akosua AA (01:38:39.204)
Exactly.
Akosua AA (01:38:50.043)
Thanks.
Akosua AA (01:38:58.279)
Mm.
Mm. Mm. And it's definitely more than one person, so so you're good to go.
Ralph OFUYO (01:39:05.939)
Thank you, Professor.