ABOUT OUR GUEST
Katie Westenberg is a wife, mom and fervent follower of Christ, growing faithfully right alongside her four children. As both an author and speaker, she teaches women to grow a robust theology of who God is, become students of Scripture, and learn to live that truth out with courage. She is the author of I Choose Brave: Embracing Holy Courage and Understanding Godly Fear and she makes her home in the lovely Pacific Northwest.
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But Then She Remembered: How to Give God Your Full Attention in a Distracted World
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What is The Connected Mom?
Form a deeper connection with God, more empathic connection with other Moms, and more intentional connection with your child.
Welcome to the Connected Mom Podcast, where we have real conversations helping you to connect more deeply with God, more empathically with your fellow moms, and more intentionally with your child. I am Becky Harling, your host, and I'm really excited today about our conversation because it's something I've been thinking through a lot in the last few months, and so there are a few facts I want to start with before I introduce our guest. Do you realize that 47% out of one, uh, thousand adults consider themselves addicted to their phones? That's a staggering statistic, right? And so you've probably been at the park with your kids, and you've looked around, and what are all the moms doing? They're scrolling Instagram or their email or their Facebook or whatever. They're addicted to their phones. And adults attention span has gone downhill in the last few years. In fact, some experts tell us that we now have the attention span of a goldfish. I don't know how that makes you feel, but that doesn't make me feel great. And then 99% of daily decisions are happening without any personal reflection time, and, uh, those statistics, to me, are staggering. Our guest today is Katie Westenberg, and she has written an amazing new book called But Then She Remembered. And the subtitle is how to give God your full attention in a distracted world. Man, do we ever need this. Katie is first and foremost a follower of Jesus. She's a wife, a mom, um, to four, um, homeschooled kids. She believes boldly in the transformative power of faith in Jesus Christ. She's an author and a speaker. And we'll give you more information on how you can connect with her in a little bit. But welcome, Katie. It's fun to have you here.
Becky. Thank you for having me.
Yeah. And I am a parent of four kids now. I have 14 grandkids. All my four kids are out of the home and married, uh, which is amazing. But tell us a little bit before we get into our conversation about who you are, about your kids, and about your life as a mom.
Okay, well, this is fun to talk about, because a lot of the podcasts I do are not focused just to moms. And so even when I was writing, my editors would say, like, not quite so many mom examples, maybe, but now we just get to talk about the mom thing. So I love it. I love it.
So I am from the non Seattle part of Washington state. People tend to think that Washington is all Seattle, but where I live, it's actually quite dry. It doesn't even rain much. A lot of agriculture. We live on a little bit of land, and we're surrounded by grapes and cherries. And I have four kids. Um, how old are they? My oldest is about to graduate just in a month or two. So that's exciting. That is high school. So he's 18 and then I have the two girls and they're 14 and just about to turn 13. And then the littlest one is ten. So two girls and two boys.
How fun is that? You're right in the thick of it, and I love that. And then, um, you are married, obviously. And tell us a little bit about your husband.
So, my husband's an electrician and we dated in high school. Wow. I didn't really plan that this would be I was going to marry him. I don't think of those things. When I was in high school. I was planning on leaving for another coastline, but I went to college and came back and got married. And we have been married 22 years this summer.
Congratulations. I love it when marriages continue and they're healthy. I know my husband and I have been married for 43 years, so well done. And it's delightful to have you on. So, Katie, what prompted you to write this book? What's the story behind the book? Because there's always a story behind every book.
Yeah, so the writing I do typically just comes out of my time with the Lord. I, um, love that I'm just a nerd at heart. I love to study, I love to read. And so, um, anything I've written really comes from that time. And specifically, this one was a couple of years ago when I was reading through the Bible cover to cover. And I always like the perspective that gives me. It can be, um, a daunting task for some people. But the times that I've committed to that, I feel like I see scripture and new, you see themes that I wouldn't otherwise see when you're deep diving into a book. So the theme of remembrance just caught my attention and how much it's talked about and what happens when God's people forget, and even the parallels between distractions. Because although the facets of distractions are new today, the technology obviously wasn't there in the Bible. They weren't dealing with, um, watches that send text messages to us and notify us, all these things, but they were there in different ways. And their hearts were prone to wander, just like ours are. So it was really just a few years ago, writing through scripture and seeing the parallels and realizing they're not outdated. And God not only commanded us to remembrance, but created us for it. He made our bodies and our brains designed. So they do remember. So it was really just working through it in those years and highlighting those passages. And I want to see everything God has to say about remembering. So that's kind of where it started. But, um, this world doesn't allow us to get away from it. The distractions are everywhere. So it seemed like a fitting time to talk about this topic.
Yeah. And it seems I mean, Moses, Daniel, David, Jesus, they didn't have iPhones. They weren't checking their email. There certainly wasn't social media constantly pulling them. And yet I think back to the story of Mary and Martha, which is one of my favorites. And Jesus comment to Martha is, Martha, Martha, you are distracted by many things, and so distractions do come. So what do distractions have to do with remembering?
Well, distractions are really a surface level symptom. And I think a lot of times we think they are the problem. If I could just turn my phone down, if I could just set it over here for a while. And not that any of those things are poor strategies, because they can be helpful to help us get away from the noise. But when we have a heart that is prone to wander, that wants to peek into other people's lives, that wants to think that what I have is really not good enough, that becomes a bigger issue. So, really, in this book, we're getting past the surface level distractions and asking, why is it that I have a heart that doesn't want to focus, that is so easily distracted? Why am I, like the Israelites, so easy looking for, um, something right in front of me, or something that and thinking, beginning to doubt what God has done and what he has placed. So it's getting beyond the symptoms to what has God commanded me to do? Who has he said he is, even here? Even when I feel overlooked or feel like I don't add up to any of the parents or the moms around me, what does God say about this?
Yeah. And so, for the mom that is, let's say, in the toddler years, um, or even the mom that's in the grade school or high school years, like you are with all the kids, activities with babies, uh, that are up at night, how does she live undistracted to the Lord? I mean, it almost seems to some, I'm sure, like an elusive dream. Like you talk about reading through scripture. And I have done that as well, and I love that. But what about the mom who says, well, this is just not realistic for me because my kids are up at five and I'm exhausted and I've always got the next thing to do. I really can't sit down and just study scripture. What would you say to her?
Well, thankfully, the Lord is not up there keeping score like we do. She missed her Bible study today and, um, she hasn't met with me for a while. And her prayers are short, hers aren't very long. And he's not keeping score like we are. He's not keeping a record of that. He wants a heart that chooses to follow him in any season we're in. And I remember specifically when there was a day that I have been a faithful Bible reader, because that discipline is easy for HM me. I don't have to work at it as hard as some people do. It's just been a natural part of my day. Right? So I probably don't get extra credit for that. So I was doing my regular Bible study, and then one day, I didn't have time for it. A baby was up early, and I just went about, okay, here we go. It hit the ground running. Uh, and I remember it being a super sweet day. And at the end of the night, as I lay in bed, I was thinking about what sweet day with the Lord. I could feel his presence. I could feel you were with me and you were sustaining me when it was hard. And then I looked back on the day and thought, uh, I didn't even read my Bible today. How does that happen? And I think when we develop those disciplines, we often make them God rather than being present with God. And I realized, not that would discount Bible reading at all. That's still an important part of me meeting with Him. But Him being present in my life isn't dependent on that. So it's just really saying, am I after a checklist or am I really after more of God? And if this is what he's placed in front of me sick toddlers, crying toddlers, crazy busy schedules because I'm running kids to sports, where can I meet Him in between? Because I'm sure that he thinks that's enough. I'm just searching for more of Him while I take care of the things that he's placed in front of me.
I love that you said that, Katie. Um, and for you moms out there listening, I sure hope that relieves a whole lot of guilt from you, because guilt isn't helping you. And so I love what Katie said about you want more of God. And so you got to figure out how that looks in your life, in your season with your kids. And one of the things that you talk about is the difference between an interruption and a distraction. Now, for those of us that are moms, we are interrupted all the time. I mean, I can just imagine some moms leaning in right now, listening to us, thinking, yeah, I was just on the telephone and my four year old interrupted me, or, My junior high student had something urgent that I had to take care of. So what's the difference between interruptions and distractions? And how can we steward an interruption in a Godly way as a mom?
Yeah, this is a fun one for me to realize. When I was reading through scripture, it was specifically in John four when Jesus met the woman at the well. And he and his disciples had just come off after this big time of traveling. They were exhausted and they were hungry. And so if that isn't a mom's life, when was the last time you got to eat a decent meal and you're working hard? And here he is at the well, and he sits down against the well, and we know that kind of tired. I'm just going to be done. And what do you know? This is how it happens with Jesus. The people always show up, like, there they are meeting him on the other side of the river. Well, here comes the woman at the well. And he, um, has this dialogue with her. So she's an interruption to what he wants. I just want to rest. Just give me some water, I'm thirsty, right? And here he gives of, um, himself and, um, changes that woman's life. And she goes on to her city to tell more people. And when the disciples come back, they're like, hey, we got the food. And he said, I have food that you don't even know about. Like, I've already been fed in serving. And so any of those times, even when the woman reached out for the hem of his robe, he's going about things. And here he's interrupted by her. And the interruptions don't rattle him, which is what I noticed as M A mom. The interruptions are really what rattles me, not the distractions. I can pick up my phone and scroll and like, oh, no, I'm just doing this now. I'm not distracted by my distractions. I'm happy to engage in those. But it's when a kid interrupts me that I'm like, wait a minute, I don't want to be doing this right now. I don't want to stop and do this. I don't have time for another injury and another Band Aid and whatever else. But it was the interruptions that didn't trip Jesus up. And he always had that sense of mission. So he would deal with what's in front of him gracefully, had time for them, and then he would go about his mission. He'd go right on through the interruption and okay, and now we'll turn and do exactly what I was doing. So he never lost a sense of direction by interruption.
I love that because I think our interruptions oftentimes are sent from God because he has something for us to do or say or listen to in that conversation. And so that's huge. So in our quest to be fully present, we're trying to live in such a way that we're going to be fully present to God and hopefully fully present to our kids and our spouse. Uh, how do we change our mindset about these interruptions?
Yeah, so one clear way to do that is to distinguish and this is what we talk about in the book, between a sense of moment and a sense of mission. And this is where I think the world has really kind of tainted how we look at things, because all of social media and I will argue that there are benefits to that. There are things that we really cherish and have made our world better because of that. So I'm not saying, like, throw the whole baby out with the handbag. But one downfall of it is that it has made us so focused on the present moment. There's new information and new information and new information. There's always something going on. And so we get caught up in this sense of moment. But that's not where Jesus was. He wasn't constantly in the sense of moment. He was on the sense of mission. So if we can change that in our hearts, okay, right now, I don't want to deal with another crying kid. I don't want to deal with the refrigerator that something just got spilled. And it's a mess like this messes up my sense of moment. But if we can convert to thinking about our sense of mission god, is this what you called me to do right now? Could I serve you and honor you and glorify you by cleaning up a messy fridge with a happy heart? Could I run errands and carpool extra kids or feed extra kids that I didn't plan on feeding? Can I serve in a way that would honor you? Could this be an act of worship? So it's really just trading that sense of moment for a sense of mission. There's something bigger and more important here, Lord. I want to see it. I want to honor you with it.
I love that so much. Um, when my kids were really little, I remember moments where one of them would be sick and I would be rocking them, and I remember praying over them and just saying, lord, help me not to forget this moment, because right now, in this moment, this is my mission. And it may not feel like you're changing the world, but you really are. And so in those ordinary moments where you are picking up a neighbor's kid or where you are taking a meal to a mom who's just had a baby, those are ordinary moments, but they can be you being on mission with God and doing what he's called you to do. And so I really love that distinction, Katie. It's really profound for our listeners, so thank you for sharing that. So if you were to, um, talk to us about taking every thought captive, I mean, that's a well known verse that if we have struggled with anxiety or depression or we've just struggled maybe with the kind of brain that gives us 10,000 thoughts per second, how do we take those thoughts captive from your perspective? And what does that look like in motherhood?
Yeah, that's a hard one. We have heard it a lot, but sometimes we don't finish the verse. It's to align it with truth. Right. That's the purpose. I'm not just out here catching thoughts like butterflies for the fun of it. I'm catching them and aligning them with what is true. And this happens at every age and every stage of walking through with the Lord. It just does. It wasn't too long ago that when my first book released. I'd never done that before. Right. New author didn't have this experience before. It was during COVID So everything was even weirder than it would normally be. And, um, I remember it was coming up and the public to start setting dates for podcasts. I'd never done podcasts before. This really isn't my normal life, right? I'm here raising kids and cooking food and cleaning toilets. And so now I have this schedule. And I'm typically not an anxious person, but it made me anxious because there were all these things that needed to be done and none of it could be done today. It's just this is on the calendar and this is on the calendar. And I'm starting to wonder, can I even do this? Is this going to make me crazy? Uh, so I remember calling a friend and saying, I kind of feel this ball of nerves in my stomach. And I'm wondering, is this just what it's going to be like from now? I'm just going to be nervous this whole next six weeks. And that's how I'm going to get through it. And she asked me, and this is why we need Godly friends. She asked me one question. She said, Katie, I want to ask you, what are you believing to be true about God right now? And m m, that question just leveled me. I was crying. I was thinking, because I hated the answer to it. I'm believing that he's not enough. I'm believing that he would take me this far and just hang me out to dry. I believe that he's going to let me fail, let me sink. He's just not enough in this. And that's not even true. But that was a thought that was getting in my head and I was believing it. So it's a friend to come beside you and say, let's take this thought and hold it up against what we believe to be true. And so that's really why remembering is critical, because our lives do feel sometimes like they're just too much or these moments really are. I really am failing at this. This kid's crying and I'm crying and I don't know what to do. There are times that we are beyond ourselves. And so remembering scripture is everything. God. Who are you here? What have you done in the past? How do you love your people? And it's remembering that that gives us the courage and strength to align those thoughts and say, wait, this is not true because this is who I believe you are, God. And so we can declare that and pray over it and ask Him to send His Holy Spirit helper, who he said in John 14, is the one who helps us remember and go out and can we do it through his strength instead of ours? So that's what it's looked like for me.
I love that. Uh, there's two things that you said in that that I really love. The first one is that you had a friend who reminded you. So before I get to the second thing that I love about that statement, talk to us a little bit. I know this could seem like it's off topic, but it's really not. Talk to us about how having close Christian friends can actually help us in our quest to be more fully present to God.
Yeah, well, sometimes we can't see our own blindness in that moment. I couldn't. Right. Um, and it's typically when we're in new areas. So now you're walking with a kid, you've never maybe it's your oldest child and you've never done teenage years before. Uh, we're new at this and we're new at this, and we're new at this. Then you're empty nesting. Well, you've never done that before. Well, now you're a grandma. You've never dealt with in laws before, you've never done this. Right. So I'm realizing that life is just a whole series of new beginnings, and so sometimes it's hard to see. We know what we've done in the past. We know maybe the way our parents have done it, but when we're in new territory, sometimes we need those Godly friends and mentors to come beside us and say, wait a minute, I think you might not be seeing this right. You might be missing something. And those friends, it's amazing when they are in our life on the day to day, but sometimes they're at a distance. And this is where technology is amazing. Um, that friend of mine lives in Tennessee and I'm in Washington State, so he was a phone call away. Sometimes it's books, sometimes it's podcasts. Like, God gives us all of these mentors who can speak into our, ah, life and remind us of truth.
Yeah, I love that. The other thing that you had said in that conversation was that we need to declare scripture. Now. Talk to us about that. What does that look like in your everyday life? So you've got these four kids, and I think I read somewhere, are you homeschooling all four?
I am. Well, one's graduating, so I guess I can't see them anymore.
Okay. There's so many questions I have, like, how did you deal with high school math? Or did you just outsource that?
Well, I kind of like to learn. I told you that at the beginning. I'm a little bit nerdy, so that has been fun. One of the educational programs we use, they say it's redeeming two generations of education. So I am learning right along with them and trying to remember all the algebra and all of that.
Yeah, well, I love learning, too, just not math. But anyway, just back to our conversation. So what does it look like in your everyday life to declare scripture over these thoughts so that you can contain and bring them back into focus on the Lord?
Yeah, the absolute best tool I have for that is really scripture memorization. And that has become the biggest part of my life in the last few years. I really have undervalued it. And I think kind of culturally in the church, we do undervalue it. We think it's great for kids, like, memorize those when you're little, and then we become adults, uh, when we need it even more, when we're facing the challenges and we're not actively doing it. So in memorizing Scripture, there's a couple of things I've noticed. Well, I told you it's easy for me to be disciplined, to be in the Word. But there's times where it's actually not. There's times where real suffering has hit our family, like, real tragedy that has just this kind that makes your stomach turn. And you can't lay asleep. You lay awake at night, and I can go to read my Bible in the morning and read a verse and then read it again and realize it's not sinking. Like, my mind is just spinning so much, I'm not even retaining anything. And at that point, it's what I've already fed my heart and mind that I have to lean on. Lord, what do I know to be true about you? What have I learned in the past? Because I'm not even comprehending what I'm reading right now. So that has been useful at a time like that. But also I've noticed through Scripture memorization is that it is doing what God intended the Word to do. It's helping me meditate on it. Right. When I have to say that over and over and over again, then it's just thinking deeper and deeper. It becomes the words I pray. I remember when I was a new mom with one of my babies, and a woman from church came to my house to visit me, and she prayed. And as she prayed, she was praying so much scripture. I remember noticing that and thinking, how does she do that? Was she looking at her Bible like, where is she getting that stuff from? She's just praying scripture. But I realized that she had put the time in, and God's words were becoming her words, right? She had internalized them, and they're just coming back out because His Word does not return void. So, um, memorizing Scripture has helped do that for me. It brings it to the forefront when I'm listening to a sermon I worked, uh, with my kids to memorize. John 14 two. Yeah, I remember when we hear it, and then we hear it in another sermon, and we're like, wait, we know that it triggers something in your mind, which is the way God designed our minds to work to bring us again, wait, I know this. I know this. And it makes you pay attention and queue in. So it's really been vital to work on, and it's not easy. Um, but we do work on memorizing Scripture and internalizing it.
I love that scripture, um, memorization has been a big part of my life as well. And what I have learned, too, going back to what you said, is that when you memorize it. It's in your mind in the moment you need it. So the Holy Spirit brings it back. And then you know what to pray for your kids. I always think and tell Mamas that one of the greatest gifts you can ever give your kids is to pray Scripture over them. Because when you're praying Scripture over them, you know you're praying in God's will. And so as you're praying Scripture over them, god's word is powerful. And I have seen some of my kids transformed as we have prayed Scripture over them. And so as you think about what Katie has said, katie said memorizing. And when you take the time to memorize, and you can start small, you don't have to memorize the whole book of John. Start with one or two verses, but really get them in your mind. The Holy Spirit is going to bring that back when you need it the most, and it's going to be right there in your thinking and right there on the tip of your tongue. So I like that, um, Katie a lot. And then when we think about declaring God's Word, sometimes, as you say, we forget about who God is in a situation. And I think it can be helpful to write down, even make a list, who does God say he is? And write that down with the verse next to it so that it's in a prominent place in your home, so that you can remember, okay, I'm fearful right now, but God says he is. Almighty God, I am anxious right now, but God says he's the Prince of Peace. And by having those in front of you again, it just gives you another tool to manage your thinking. Okay, so we think about this world we're living in, world of cell phones, of Internet, of social media. My daughter and I were talking, uh, a few months ago, and she was like, mom, how in the world did you parent us without Google MD? There wasn't even Google MD back then. And then another daughter said, and how did you do our birthdays without Amazon? Now we can just click and it's delivered to our house. So the whole world has changed rapidly in these last few years. How do we stay focused on what really matters to God here and now?
Yeah, that's a tricky one because it has changed a lot. I would maintain that interruptions and distractions and all of it have always existed. Right. I think about I mean, go back 40 years ago when people were reading their newspaper on their couch, and we could use that to block other people's people out. We could just put the newspaper up and I'm going to not pay attention because I'm going to read the newspaper. So I think, um, our hearts that are prone to wander have always been there, but it really has reached a feverish pitch because it's so much closer. But I think it's important. To not take our eye off the issue here, that it's not really the Internet, it's not really the social media. I mean, those can be used for good and they can be used for bad. And there are times where I think silencing them is a really healthy thing to do.
But I also think the struggle is healthy, too, because I think that's us trying to listen and discern what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. And I'm at this age now where I'm raising these teenagers, and not only am I making decisions for me, but they're seeing what I do, and I'm teaching them what to do, too. And it's easy to go down these lanes and off these cliffs where all of a sudden we are consuming more and we notice how it's changing us. And so then when we have that struggle, we have this dialogue with the Lord, and we're asking Him, what am I preferring here? What am I seeking after by looking at this? What am I wanting more than you? And I think he loves those questions. He loves to guide us back to truth in that.
Yeah, I love that. Katie and then how does staying focused, um, on God help us be more present to our kids? Like, how are the two interrelated from your perspective?
Mhm well, when he commands us to love our husband and love our kids, he designs us to obey those commands. Right. Like, our minds and our hearts are for that, and they're just so easily taken away. So when we ask Him, can you help me do this, Lord? Because this is hard. This is different. Right now, there are all these distractions. That's where he's going to send the Holy Spirit to remind us. And sometimes I even make the practice of when I'm doing something else, say I get on my phone. I mean, how many times have we got on our phone for something legitimate? I need to look at this recipe. Then I'm looking at the weather, and then I'm looking at someone else's color that they painted their house. Right. It's so quick, that line from jumping 20 miles from where you intended to be. But I can say right now while I'm doing it, when I pick up my phone, sometimes I say, okay, I'm getting on here to look for this recipe. Um, I'm telling my mind what to do because I need to say it out loud. And there's nothing wrong with using that as a form of entertainment sometimes, too, but I want to say that, you know what? I'm going to get on here for entertainment for 10 minutes. I'm going to say what it is. So I'm not going to waste all that time, because time matters. We're told over and over throughout Scripture that the days matter and I want to use them well, and I want to honor the Lord with them. So I'm just going to be completely honest with him and with my kids about where I'm at with this. And I'm going to keep on asking him to redeem my time. Let me use it for you. Let it glorify you, lord.
I love that so much. It's like you're setting a boundary for yourself. Almost like a little self management meeting sometimes. That's a principle that I teach because I think sometimes we're great at managing our households or, uh, other people, but we have to self manage too, right under the influence and power of the Holy Spirit, obviously. But saying, okay, I'm going to take 3 minutes and look at this recipe or I'm going to take 5 minutes and check my social media because I need to make other people feel validated for what they've posted. But giving yourself a time limit so that you're not all the way consumed by that. And then you realize, okay, my kid has been trying to tell me something for the last hour and a half and I've been too distracted to even listen to them. And so, um, taking every thought captive, putting boundaries around, uh, some of what distracts you certainly helps memorizing scripture. I love all of these ideas, Katie. You're being so practical with us and I sure appreciate that. Okay, so we almost are out of time here. I can't believe it, but how do you want to challenge our listeners today?
I want to challenge your listeners to be remembers. I just don't think it's a topic we think about that much. We focus a little bit more on the distraction. But what's behind that? How can I be someone who knows truth, who knows the God of the past is the God of the present and he's going to be the God of the future, not only for me, but for my kids, for my grandkids. We see this throughout Deuteronomy. Like, he set these things in place so we would pass them on. And the mission of the world at the moment seems to be to get us to focus on the present moment. But we know we're living for a greater eternity. So I want to live as if that's true. I want to live as, like this, uh, moment is not everything. But I have a heritage that I'm passing on. I have little people in my home who are watching me or big people who are watching me, Lord. And I want to live for a moment beyond this one. I want to live and honor you for eternity that, that might be passed down to my kids and my grandkids. And in order to do that, we have to be the remembers, the one who remembers God's truth and is going to pass that on. So it's a big, uh, undertaking, but it's also an undertaking that he equipped us for. He equipped our minds to remember. He designed our brains. And we get to study that a little bit in the book, we get into the nerdy science part of it, how he created our brains to obey Him here. So I would just challenge your readers to commit to being that remembers.
I love that there's something I've written about called the worship of remembrance, because when we remember who God is, it leads us to worship Him. And so then we are honoring Him in every way. We are worshipping Him with our mouths as we praise Him. We are worshipping Him through our lives as we parent. We are worshipping Him as we live out our marriages. And so remembering is key. So we've been talking today with Katie, um, about this great idea of, uh, but then she remembered. That's a great title, by the way, Katie. So it's Katie Westenberg. And Katie, how can our listeners get in touch with you, order your book, follow you on all the social media things, and just stay in touch with you?
Yeah. On my website, which is Katywestenberg.com. And I also am occasionally on Instagram and Facebook at that same title. But the book is available or will be available as of April 25 on Amazon and at some local bookstores and Christian book those places.
Uh huh. And we will have all of that information for you in the show notes. Mom. So we're going to wind down our conversation with Katie. Katie, thank you so much for being here with us. This has been incredible. I love all the practical tips you gave our mamas. And this has been such a powerful episode, I feel, helping you to connect more deeply with God and more empathically with your fellow moms and more intentionally with your child. As we remember who God is, he's going to empower us to do that. So thanks for joining us today on the Connected Mom podcast. And join us next week for another conversation to help you connect more deeply with God, more empathically with your fellow moms, and more intentionally with your child. This is Becky Harling saying goodbye for now.