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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced, teach them leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:17] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims to support, [00:00:25] inspire, and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell and today I am chatting to Warren Carret. Warren is Chief Executive Officer of Nexus mat, A trust providing educator to children across the South Yorkshire at Nottingham Mission regions with a majority of special schools.
[00:00:43] A first generation CEO. Warren was also the CEO of the Evolve Trust, a failed mat, which he was [00:00:50] appointed to lead with the specific brief of Rebring, its academies and closing the trust down. Warren is a sitting magistrate and is also an independent member of the police. Some crime panel, a statutory body, which holds the South Yorkshire Mayor to account.
[00:01:04] He's an advisory member to the staff college and was a member of the DFEs Attendance Action Alliance. He's also an employer representative on Teach and Pension Skin Pension Board. [00:01:15] He was elected as a member of the policy advisory group that the Confederation of Schools Trust established in 2024. It was a joy to talk to Warren in this episode to learn about his approach, not only to being a CEO and education, but a.
[00:01:30] Also to being human. His enthusiasm is infectious. And we discussed leading with kindness and perspective and happiness strategies, as well as talking about [00:01:40] Rabbits. Star Trek and Wham. Enjoy.
[00:01:48] Hi Warren. Uh, it's great to have you here today. Many thanks for joining us. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you. It's nearly the end of term, so we're in the home stretch and Yep. Happy and healthy. Can't complain. Excellent. Well, thank you very much for joining us, um, today. This is fabulous. So Warren, you currently [00:02:05] see your at Nexus, Matt, um, but you haven't come through kind of that.
[00:02:10] You know, head teacher route. You, you've worked in children's services, workforce development before becoming a MAT leader. So I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about your career background. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, firstly, thank you for inviting me on. Uh, really appreciate it. And, um, I suppose if I was sat in the, um, the mastermind chair, is it, is it [00:02:30] mastermind?
[00:02:30] This would be my expert subject, wouldn't it? So myself, uh oh dear. Um, so yeah, my and I started, oh, 22 years ago working in education Now. We're what were called a classroom support worker in a special school, um, Hilltop Special School, which ironies of ironies, uh, were one of the founding schools of the trust that I was appointed to be a chief exec of.
[00:02:48] But, um, yeah, I'd gone into education, loved my two years post sig Formm, working in a special school, and, and we [00:02:55] determined that I were gonna go away to train, to teach. Um, so I went to university. And, um, my, my plan was to do a postgraduate certificate in education, you know, the other side of a degree, but never really.
[00:03:05] Um, so that through that is still my long term aim and ambition. I think by the time I get to my mid fifties, I'll, I'll finally do the PGC and, and finish my career teaching. Part-time, um, and try and do it that way. Round the wrong, the wrong way round, really. Um, but yeah, [00:03:20] I, uh, I ended up, um, from university taking a part-time job in the NHS, which I really enjoyed working in organizational development.
[00:03:27] Ended up getting, um, quite a big jump up, um, in a role that I took on at the National Blood Service, which were, well, NHS blood transplant is what it was when I joined it. It was a, an organization, a national NHS provider that had seen three. Organizations merge into one. And then I ended up in, in local government, in [00:03:45] children's services, in social care, at a time when, um, austerity meant that there was a rapidly reducing number of, um, senior managers in local government.
[00:03:55] Um, but that also presented a huge volume of opportunities to be able to take on, uh, new areas of responsibility and to stretch yourself. Yeah. So do you think then, you know, those early experiences have shaped your thinking around sort of leadership and, [00:04:10] and culture and education? Um, oh, definitely. I mean, the, the head teacher I worked with.
[00:04:15] Uh, for, um, the start of my career at Hilltop was an incredibly gentle and kind leader. Um, and I understood early on the value of kindness in leadership and, and kindness absolutely not being weakness so that were modeled from the in education at an early phase. And I think probably like most people in this world, you then worked through your [00:04:35] career and you'll learn harsh and hard lessons on how not to do it from, um, people who you work with and for and you appreciate more those who.
[00:04:44] You know, go that extra mile to take a personal interest and to just treat you in a way that you would like to be treated and. There's nothing profound about this at all, Julie. It is what it is. You treat people how you'd like to be treated or try and apply that methodology and that mindset, and typically [00:05:00] you won't get it wrong.
[00:05:01] Yeah. And I think that, you know, I think you're so right, aren't you? You're often the learning comes from seeing how you don't want things to be and Yeah, taking the good bits and and modeling from them. So I wonder whether I just pick up on the fact that you've. I think boldly stated, would we, would we recap it like that?
[00:05:21] Um, the organizations don't need a people [00:05:25] strategy, they need a, a happiness strategy. Um, can you just kind of unpack a little bit what you meant by that and why you believe that's the sort of right direction? Yeah, and, and, and I do try and avoid making unilateral value statements because you always end up.
[00:05:40] Upsetting somebody somewhere or a lot of people everywhere. Um, so this is absolutely predicated on my experience of being a workforce development, organizational [00:05:50] development, uh, lead for local government. And, and when I worked in local authority, what, what, what the organization wanted is we had to have a workforce strategy.
[00:05:59] Um, it wasn't particularly important to anybody what was in that workforce strategy. We just had to have one. So I, I worked in children's social care at the time when I joined, um, Rothland local Authority, they had around about a 39% vacancy fat to each referred by agency social workers who cost twice as [00:06:15] much as establishment social workers.
[00:06:16] And who tell establishment social workers. They get, they're getting paid twice as much, which feeds the. You know, the cycles dysfunction. And there'd been a really clear workforce plan put in place that, um, you know, we, we, we needed to recruit more social workers and train more social workers, but there wasn't a great deal that were done about that.
[00:06:33] So despite the fact that we had a document that said it were a strategy, what struck me, uh, when I joined the local government and what worked really well is two things [00:06:40] really. One is being clear about what is and isn't in your control in terms of workforce. And, you know, we live. It's a free market.
[00:06:46] People aren't tied down, people aren't, um, forced to stay in roles and teaching is not dissimilar to social care. Now, in terms of, we have a national shortage and a real challenge in recruitment and, and retention. I think particularly around mainstream, secondary and the challenges that that yields, we're really fortunate in our trust.
[00:07:04] We don't have [00:07:05] recruitment to retention challenges to the same degree, but it's a sector-wide problem. We benefit. Often because mainstream, secondary and primary teachers come into the specialist sector and then never leave it. It feels like it's the best kept secret in education. And, but I am also really mindful that there are others who, who really struggle with that challenge because, um, they have high turnover.
[00:07:24] For reasons that aren't always, uh, sometimes not at all about how you, you lead and manage and, and your organizational [00:07:30] culture. But my experience in social care was that if you wanted people to join you and stay, it were about relationships and fundamentally it were about people feeling happy. So in local government, when, when we did our workforce strategy for children's services in 2009, it were absolutely not connected to the, we didn't know it at the time, but to the huge austerity measures that the coalition government brought in.
[00:07:53] And what I learned quite quickly is [00:07:55] when you're a public authority, external policy decisions tend to dictate a lot of your strategic options. So you can have the best plan in the world, but once the governor minister comes in and changes their mind, or the Chancellor reduces your budget by 60%. You're a bit booed.
[00:08:11] Um, so our view at Rotham was how do we, or my view at Roham was, um, and it ended up being our organization approach is how do we grow our own and how do [00:08:20] we invest in relationships and happiness so that people want to join us and want to stay? And by the time that I left Rotham, we had a, I don't know if it is such a, a negative vacancy factor.
[00:08:30] So we've over, we'd over recruited on the establishment by about 5%. And that over recruitment was negligible compared to the cost of agency to cover short, short term absence as people moved through natural turnover. So it worked really well [00:08:45] and I brought that mindset into, into our trust is our model is different to a lot of multi academy trust.
[00:08:50] We are very much about the agency and identity within our schools. We're not the exclusively the omni trusts like that. There is some great trusts out there that have a strong corporate identity and it's very much about the trust name. There are other trusts who operate locals where it's about diversity and difference and a key conduit for the recruitment to retention of [00:09:10] staff is our head teachers and how they lead on the ground.
[00:09:13] So, you know, our trust plan if is at odds with agency and diversity if to trust prescribes expectations. To the nth degree. So we decided with the board of directors and they were comfortable with it, that we'd focus our work on how the trust adds value to the achievement and attainment and sustainability of happiness across our workforce.
[00:09:31] And so far, so good. Yeah, and I suppose that. [00:09:35] Kind of control the controllables within that, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Because those, as you say, those kind of wider government strategies, initiatives, policies, can kind of wipe out a whole way of doing things. So yeah, very much kind of understand that that's what's within our control and you know, what are the kind of factors, um, that we can kind of work towards.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] So. Next Ascend, the, you've defined kind of five pillars of happiness. What do they sort of look like if, if, if you are okay to go through them? This feels like it is your mastermind session now. 'cause I'm gonna test you on all five pillars. Um, so what are those five pillars and, and how do you kind of embed them?
[00:10:20] Into everyday school life. So within our, um, strategic [00:10:25] planning framework, we have a, a a five year strategic plan. And our health, wellbeing and happiness plan is its full name. It is, uh, an integral delivery plan of our infrastructure strategy. So, you know, our people are our key infrastructure. We spend the majority of our budget round about 85%.
[00:10:41] EEE. Every school budget is spent on staffing. So, you know, the vast majority of our resources. It tied up in our, in our human resources. And that's a key part of our [00:10:50] organizational infrastructure. So, um, we have an overarching strategic plan. We have three key, um, delivery strategies for that one around school improvement, one around finance, as you'd expect.
[00:11:00] It's a public authority. And then the other about infrastructure and the health, wellbeing, and happiness plan is a key delivery plan of that infrastructure strategy. Our pillars, and this is, I struggle with, I, I loved the Every Child Matters outcomes. Can you remember when we had the, the five outcome measures?
[00:11:14] 'cause [00:11:15] I really like things simple. I'm a simple lad from Rotham, so that's how I have to do things. And I often get very frustrated by, you know, is it an output or an outcome debate? And I, I think it's fair to, there is a, there's cross pollination with our five pillars. So you could probably place one in another and the connector across.
[00:11:32] But basically we tried to split them up in terms of the. The life cycle of an employee within the Multi Academy Trust within our school. So the first one, [00:11:40] pillar one, is recruiting the very best people. Uh, pillar two is then economic sustainability, because whether we like it or not, and I actually don't dislike it, we live in a country that is a capitalist mega power.
[00:11:51] And, you know, currency talks, money talks, you need to keep people remunerated fairly. So economic sustainability. It's key for us, and I think particularly in our trust, around about 70% of our workforce are our lowest paid staff, their teaching assistants [00:12:05] who work in our special school. So that's where our trust is also different in terms of IT demographics.
[00:12:10] So economic sustainability is a key one for us. Pillar three is perpetuating a positive and healthy work environment. Um, and I, I mean that both in terms of behavioral terms, cultural terms, but also in terms of the bricks and mortar that we've got. Um, or the rack and asbestos, which is most schools, um, up and down the country.
[00:12:29] [00:12:30] So, you know, how do we use the very small and decreasing in size spaces because. Special schools are massively oversaturated replacements. So you know that real terms impact of that is we have overcrowded classrooms and less physical space. So what are we doing to make sure that that's the best it can be agency and recognition.
[00:12:48] Recognition. Easy for me to say is, uh, is pillar four. So, you know, giving people, um, as much. Freedom [00:12:55] to be able to self determine as possible within an agreed framework and recognizing, you know, their contributions. One of the things I, I, I, I found three or four years ago is we spend a lot of time fixating on, let's say the 5% of our workforce where we have to manage problems and issues.
[00:13:12] And less time focusing on the 95% of our workforce who come in every single day with a smile on the face, a sung in the hall, and make our [00:13:20] children's lives a joy to be in school. So, so, you know, trying to move towards focusing on, you know, the strengths-based approach rather than deficit. And, and then finally collaboration and progression.
[00:13:30] Um, now again, you could put those together, but those five pillars help us. Chunk up and compartmentalize the, um, workforce initiatives that we undertake across our trust in our, in our schools with our, with our board of directors, bringing our head [00:13:45] teachers then, so obviously as head teachers, we always say, don't the head teachers kind of create the weather?
[00:13:50] What do you kind of see to maybe. Biggest barriers to head teacher wellbeing and or maybe it's the flip side. How do you support them to lead with that kind of kindness and compassion? Uh, but I think it starts by how you, how you engage with people yourself. So the trust organizational culture is always one where when we set the trust, but [00:14:10] I'm sorry if this is speaking in.
[00:14:11] Such to, uh, jargonistic terms, but, um, it, there, there is, it is inherently true for us is we spent a lot of time in the early days of the trust, so the were me's chief executive had been brought in through a, the national recruitment process, new to the MAT sector. We had three head teachers and a board of directors.
[00:14:28] And in those early days. You know, we, we worked as a collaborative to really lay down the [00:14:35] foundation stones for what we wanted the trust to be about. So early on, we adopted the sentiment of servant leadership. You know, the idea that we are here to meet the needs of the children and families we serve, but therefore the trust, whilst the responsible authority for our schools is funded by our schools, you know, I'm really clear.
[00:14:50] I'm paid, um, from the funding that our schools receive to educate children, as is our central trust team. So our responsibility is to meet their needs at all times. [00:15:00] The academy's model were brought in to close the gap between the frontline service users, in our case, children, pupils, and families and decision makers.
[00:15:09] And often I, I do regret that we have seen some trust, um, or, or models in some trusts where that gap seems to have become wider rather than narrower. Now, in order to do that. What do you have to do? Well, first off, I think you have to be really clear about what it is you're doing and why. [00:15:25] So, I'm a big believer in choice, self-determination.
[00:15:27] You know, I like probably everybody else out there, I'm very stubborn. I'm very clear about what my needs are and how I need them to be met. Um, and on a day-to-day basis, the, the way that I've avoided the dysfunction that is, uh, poor behavior, uh, and trying to, uh, self-regulate as best I can. It's by being really clear on, you said it earlier on, you know, what's within PHE control and what are options and choices.
[00:15:47] So primarily this job is a privilege [00:15:50] to do, and it really is. It's a great, see, I've got the best job in the world. If I, if I didn't think it were the best job in the world, I'd do another job. I'm looking forward to fulfilling the, um, aim and ambition of being a teacher in my, uh, mid fifties and finishing my career that way.
[00:16:04] But, you know, if I didn't love this job, I'd be, I'd be doing that now, and I do. It's a great job, and I think approaching it with humility and appreciation every single day is. The challenge I set myself [00:16:15] because there were some days where a little bit of sanctimony likes to creep in and you want to be self-righteous and feel that you are hard done to, and so, uh, misunderstood and underappreciated.
[00:16:25] Um, but actually, you know, I'd probably say nine times outta 10, I'm able to get that balance right. That then sets the tone for how I engage and interact with our head teachers and now how our regional directors engage with me and how they engage with others. So, you know, [00:16:40] starting premises, we all have choices.
[00:16:42] Second premise is we're all here because we want to do the best that we can. So the trust vision is learning together to be the best that we can be. And some days the best that we can be is woefully short of what it is on others. But you know, I, I really struggle with metrics that aim for, um, perfection and, you know, achieving the absolute best.
[00:17:01] Because if you set that as a benchmark and that's what you're aiming for, you'll miss it more [00:17:05] often than not. But learning together, that's what schools are about, being the best we can be. Some days we get, as I say, that. Um, well far less than what it is on others, but let's be clear that that's the human condition and it's provided.
[00:17:17] Provided we are all trying to be the best that we can on any given day, in any given context, and that really has, I think that's infused in our culture from day one. So when we've appointed people within the Central trust, career [00:17:30] history and competence is important. It absolutely is. But you get a lot of that from, you know, people's backgrounds, from the roles that they've held from the application form.
[00:17:39] So what we've been testing now for the past five or six years, and it's not just us, I know there's other organizations that do this, is we test values, we test ethos, we, we try to have a structured conversation through selection about who people really are and how they respond to pressure and [00:17:55] how they respond to what I think is the achilles heel of the human condition control because our model leaves.
[00:18:02] The trust leaders, executive leaders within the central trust outta control more often than not. And we have to be really comfortable with that discomfort. What, what I've observed in my career, what I've observed in myself, a house moving is, is the best one. I remember once, uh, we were selling a house and, uh, we, we were close to finalization and then the [00:18:20] buyer wanted a structural survey doing in the 11th hour, and I was absolutely furious.
[00:18:25] I mean, I was so stressed and so angry and I stopped and I thought, what. Why am I this angry? And it's because I had no control over what were happening. And I felt a big tin and that acute incident, I mean, most people will have felt that we feel it in many different ways in in many different uh, days, don't we?
[00:18:40] It, you know, that taught me a valuable lesson in look, just try and keep some perspective. So [00:18:45] I think that's what we try to engender in our leaders. And then either through the head teachers, I manage, you know, a lot of it is by exception in terms of how bad can this be if we've got an issue, you know, and how much.
[00:18:56] Space and uh, time do we give our heads? And it's a huge amount, you know, so we intervene by exception. And, uh, this may sound incredibly weak and may be coward, libert, in the decade that I've been doing this role, I've never directed anybody to do anything [00:19:10] once. I've never shouted at anybody. I've never lost my temper because A, what ride do I have to do that with another adult?
[00:19:15] And B, how does that actually help a dynamic? And that's what we expect from our executive leaders. You know, you work with and through. So the two words that I use more than any other. In this role are enable and facilitate That is the role of executive leadership to enable and facilitate our heads and our schools to be the best that they can be.
[00:19:34] And some of [00:19:35] that means that you stand back and you give space. What we tend to do is we make sure that for head teachers, so the way I describe the line management model is it's pastoral first because we have other checks and balances within the central trust team to, you know, to weigh the pig of school improvement and quality of education.
[00:19:51] Um, so line managers are there. To help support, enable and facilitate the head teachers being the best that they can be. That's our deliberate intent. [00:20:00] And you know, our workforce surveys tell us that it's having the impact we want it to. Uh, I think that the challenge we face, and I have to say this to the board of directors, is.
[00:20:09] If you go to early intervention and prevention, if, you know, if you have a strategic intent and it avoids a negative outcome, you, you can't prove a negative can you. So you're often left without the evidence that what you've done has had the desired impact. But we have a, I think a range of metrics which help us determine that.
[00:20:23] And there's [00:20:25] just the feel On Friday we had our end of year celebration event. The do, which is a, the head teachers executive team, central team have the choice about whether or not they want to, um, go out and they have to, you know, they pay for the meal. Um, we, we just coordinate it and all the head teachers were there.
[00:20:38] The majority of their SLTs were there. A number of the central trust team. And it were beautiful. I mean, I, I were, I were driving, uh, because I, it's not wise to drink, um, just 'cause I don't drink well. Um, so [00:20:50] my wife and I went, she, she drank, I drove and they just all stayed until about one o'clock in the morning talking to each other.
[00:20:56] You know, you, you can't direct that. You just have to create the conditions where that happens. I love all of that. That's just gorgeous. And I think I've read somewhere that you said, well, actually, you've already said it in this conversation, you like to make things as simple as possible and simplicity.
[00:21:14] And [00:21:15] actually within that. Philosophy that you've just explained, those if, for want of a better word, um, those things are, you know, fairly key, simplistic properties aren't there? So that one around self-regulation, um, and that ability to self-regulate, um, which obviously you've just demonstrated by your, um, not drinking, you know, your limits and you, you know, that kind of where that goes.
[00:21:37] And two, about not expecting that bar to always [00:21:40] be so high. I think, you know, accepting that, that some days that bar. Is just law. And that's good enough on some days, just rocking up, doing the basics, keeping the school open. Running is enough and some days are around, um, thriving. But also, um, that, you know, going back again, it's that control thing, isn't it?
[00:21:59] That what you, you know, what you said there is that getting comfortable with things [00:22:05] being out of control because you know, what we know is that lack of control is the biggest source of stress. 'cause it makes us feel unsafe. So, you know, everything in your head was lined up about your house move and then there was a curve ball.
[00:22:18] So the impact was, you know, I've lost control, I feel unsafe. I'm gonna go into kind of this sort of stress mode. So it's really nice to hear there that in the one sense, one of your pillars [00:22:30] is around that autonomy and control and agency, but at the same time, recognizing that that. Kind of what can't always be the case, that some things are going to be out of control and getting comfortable with that.
[00:22:45] So yeah, just lovely to hear. Um, lovely to hear about that kind of philosophy and I like the way that you stated about making your needs really clear. And I'm just [00:22:55] going for context. Um, at the beginning of this conversation, more Warren had made his needs really clear, um, and got somebody to come in and do servant leadership and bring him a coffee.
[00:23:08] True that. Okay. So you've talked about this sort of simplicity. We, we've sort of mentioned kindness, but again, um, in, in doing [00:23:20] kind of a bit of of research, I saw a statement that you made and you just said kindness and perspective. That is all. Speak to that just for a little bit. Yeah. At is, so I, I, I'm part of a, a, a, a network of peers, um, who I speak to regulating, and it's a, a great group of people to be, um, connected to.
[00:23:41] Um, but one of the things that we took about quite often is, and it calls about what I said earlier on, is [00:23:45] that. You know, I'm not just saying it because it feels like it's the right thing to say. This job is a privilege. You know, I pinch myself. Um, most days I'm able to do it. So in, in a non bleeding hearts way, I come from a, you know, a very working class background.
[00:23:58] My, my dad, uh, were deputy down the pit. My mom didn't work. He were maybe redundant from, um, mob ery when I were about. Nine or 10. We had a very difficult period for the next 10, 15 years where we were [00:24:10] low-skilled. Those, um, qualities that allowed him to be a deputy weren't transferrable really to any other industry.
[00:24:15] So he ended up being a school caretaker. Um, but you know, I think he's paid reduced by two thirds. And I, and I were one of the first members of my family to go to university and to get a degree. So I, I'm one of those people who's made that transition from working class through to, you know, what I think is, if you were looking at three bands, it'd be middle class now, where I occupy space socially, [00:24:35] economically, and, and in terms of, uh, profession as well.
[00:24:38] So there is that, you know, all of that makes me feel very grateful. But I also think that. I, it surprises me how often in education we have leaders that publicly want to be moan and complain the context that they operate in. So, and I get it, I understand it and I'm not unsympathetic towards it, but I also think that it's very easy to lose perspective.
[00:24:59] [00:25:00] Um, so you, the parental complaints and the difficulties we, um, some schools have with those. I, I understand that it's challenging, but you know, it, it's public service. The public have got a right to complaint and we haven't got a right to demand that they can't or shouldn't. Uh, and when I look at, you know, uh, our, um, exec director for business transformation.
[00:25:18] I, uh, I had bartered to bring me a coffee in at late notice earlier. Um, she talks about end of term [00:25:25] quite a lot. So it's just end of dermatitis and, and you, you do see it and you feel it, you know, people come in online and making statements or talking about how I, I mean, you see the trolling on x uh, uh, uh, head teacher of a, of a secondary school recently, we're getting quite a lot of, um, online abuse for putting pictures on about his staff away day.
[00:25:43] And I just look at it and I think why a, why is, where's the kindness and b. How have on earth have [00:25:50] people lost the perspective to such an extent that they feel that abusing somebody anywhere is where they want to be? They're the two things which I have to remind myself of most days, kindness and perspective.
[00:26:00] So we had an incident a couple of weeks ago with an, an employee who, uh, I won't go into too much detail because they'll know if they hear this, I'm talking about them. But, um, somebody who, who had started to spiral and started to behave really quiet, [00:26:15] dysfunctionally. And, you know, we had a clear strategy of what we'd do if we didn't recover.
[00:26:19] But you know, as, as much as I were disappointed and upset with how they were behaving, I recognized that they had created their own dysfunction spiral, and they were suffering more than anybody else because of that. Now, if I were pleasing myself at that moment in time, emotionally, it would've been about feeling strong in leadership and banging the table and saying, we cannot stand for this.[00:26:40]
[00:26:40] We needed a Strat. We needed three options, I think, for how we dealt with it. And you know, one of those options could have been that you went the whole hog and the you parted ways. But the course of action that we sought to follow, that we bent over backwards to help nudge them onto, which they eventually did get onto, was, let's try and diffuse this and just keep it calm.
[00:26:58] Now we need apologies. We need. Resolution. Um, but that's all we need, you know, because we can't take this [00:27:05] back and we've got to move forward together and the organization is better for that person being with us. There are times when you're looking in the mirror and you think, oh, how am I just a coward?
[00:27:13] Have I avoided conflict? But actually. It wouldn't have been conflict for me and for our executive team. There are ways in which that could have been dealt with, which would've spared people that individual, uh, difficulty. Um, and instead we chose kindness because it, it is the right way to go. And, and as well, I said [00:27:30] at the start, you is you have to treat people like you'd want to be treated.
[00:27:33] And if I was at my most dysfunctional, if I was at my most, you know, unfiltered, uh, worst. And they were the, the empty were constantly being upped. I think what I'd want is somebody to just put the hand on my shoulder or give me a hug and say, let's stop this. Everything that my mom didn't do, uh, I'd get belted instead.
[00:27:52] Um, but not belted. She'd throw slippery in my [00:27:55] direction. Um, but, you know, you look and you think, what is it that I'd need and want and just apply that I, I'm sorry. Have I gone off piece there or is it I don't care. It doesn't matter. Um, I love that because it's that, it's that compassion, isn't it? It's that compassionate kind of leadership, um, and put in the human first beyond the problem and.
[00:28:19] I think there [00:28:20] is a perception, I think there's a perception amongst leaders, people, general population, that kindness, it can be soft. Yeah. Like maybe it's what you were saying there is you questioned yourself. Am I being cowardice? Is it that I'm not strong enough to make these decisions? But actually you can still make difficult decisions.
[00:28:41] And be kind. Absolutely. And we did, you know, the strategy [00:28:45] we, which again, it comes back to me, I think one of the biggest qualities, competencies, I'm not sure what you'd call it, but I saw it in social care were absent more that you were present. And I see it, I think just in the human condition is, is genuine reflection, is understanding yourself.
[00:29:00] And what's driving you to behave in the way that you are behaving. So, I mean, I would argue, and I think my colleagues would, and my wife would definitely say that this is true. You know, I am a [00:29:10] control freak. But, um, you know, in the sense that I, I just let me know what it is that's within my gift to control or not, and don't let my emotions control me and drive me to do something that.
[00:29:22] You know, later down the line, I'd regret. And I think as a people manager, you have to adopt the approach, don't you? Where if you can walk around the supermarket and see any ex-employee and look them in the eyes and ask them how they are and how the family are and not feel [00:29:35] a hint of. Shame or regret about your actions, then the chances are you've either, you, either a sociopath or you're winning and you're doing it in the right way.
[00:29:44] There's a fine line, but I also think that, you know, like the job title that I've got is ridiculous, you know, chief Executive officer in, in France, you'd be called a schools administrator and I'd be fine with that. But I think that you know, that even the job title has all these powers and these notions don't it in connotations of [00:30:00] power and authority.
[00:30:01] And I get how people feel that they've got to act like. The chief executive? Well, it's just the title that people give. You know, a head of workforce or Head of Compassion or head of kindness would probably engender a much better outcome at times. But yeah, it, it, yeah, it is what it is. Every action we take is deliberate, and if it's not deliberate, then you've got a problem.
[00:30:20] Yeah. I think though that's where that self-awareness comes from, doesn't it? And I'm a huge advocate [00:30:25] that they are the kind of skills we need to encourage amongst managers and leaders starting with themselves. You know, you can teach all the strategy, you can teach all the kind of, or, or often people are skilled anyway.
[00:30:39] Those areas, but actually it's the skill of self-awareness, reflection, knowing what's driving your behaviors. Because once you've got that conscious awareness, then you can make those [00:30:50] conscious, deliberate choices, can't you? But without that self-awareness, and I, I think this should be at the heart of any sort of leadership training, management training, because yeah, I just do for all of the reasons that you've said, because then you can make those deliberate choices and.
[00:31:07] Ability to see people as people harnessing the best of people. So such. So one of the things that we've done, um, in the last few years is we've got our [00:31:15] own leadership development program within our trust that focuses on all of that side of things. So we start with mayers bricks. There are different models out there, but know thyself, practitioner know thyself is the.
[00:31:25] Uh, the, uh, module that we have on there. And it's one of the things that I say in, in the introduction to that, in the overview. So these are like our deputy heads, assistant heads who are on a pathway to headship and look. MPQH will give them some. And knowledge, skills, [00:31:40] and, and competency. But this is about who you are as a human being.
[00:31:43] And I say if you, if you want to go into headship because you feel that, that's when you're finally gonna feel like you've got control and power. Stop now. Because if you get it right, you'll probably feel more powerless more often than you'll feel like you're exercising power. You'll have to compromise.
[00:31:59] More than you get your own way and you'll find that, you know, throughout the course of your, [00:32:05] your time in that role, actually, it's probably more uncomfortable than it's comfortable, but if you're prepared for that because that's what you want to do and that's how you want to lead, you know, run to it.
[00:32:14] Because that's what we need in leaders. Yeah, it's that discomfort, isn't it? That comfort in the discomfort and that sort of like, when you kind of talk about the pillars of happiness, and I think again, that is a bit of a perception, isn't it? So, so by talking about happiness [00:32:30] to some people might be about, well, you know, it's not all gonna be happy.
[00:32:34] And like, why are you saying this is what we're gonna do and make it happy, but actually. The caveat sitting underneath that it's, it's kind of like the whole human experiences there and get uncomfortable with being uncomfortable and feeling out of control or feeling, you know, those difficult times because actually.
[00:32:54] [00:32:55] Just being happy is not achievable. But it's a huge part, isn't it, of, of kind of us all working with under that, you know, that happiness umbrella. Yeah. And embracing the, the whole range of emotions, isn't it? Which is very kind of the whole positive psychology. So of remit, which gets me misunderstood because you think a positive emotion must just be happiness and we we're trying to make people happy all the time, which, you know, it's nice to hear you explain [00:33:20] it in the context of a working culture really.
[00:33:22] So. Have you any ever kind of faced any sort of backlash or negativity from the wider community or from around some of those strategies? Have people questioned whether, you know, people mes concerned about accountability or buts or that perceived softness? Have you, have you ever kind of come across. That [00:33:45] reaction?
[00:33:46] Yeah. I mean, we have, so one of the things which is worth saying, I think I was saying it before we started, um, is that, um, I'm a big believer in securing the outcome. I, I'm not necessarily, I'm agnostic about whether or not, in fact I'm probably less, that is more than ag, um, being agnostic, I think, um, I, I think the strategies and plans can get in their own way if they become the talking point.
[00:34:06] So our wellbeing, uh, happiness plan is. The [00:34:10] first time I spoke about it when I spoke to, in the article with the Edwin Group, it's not something that we promoted across our trust. 'cause my view is now what we want is we want the associated behaviors, the initiatives that will drive those behaviors and, and the outcome of people feeling more happy than they otherwise would without the initiatives.
[00:34:25] I could send a table that I couldn't care less whether or not people know that we've got it, which is a big counterintuitive to having this conversation, but it's a little bit like peeping behind the curtain in ours, isn't it? It is [00:34:35] probably as disappointing actually as well. Um, but we, um, so in terms of the way that we've approached it, I, I, yeah.
[00:34:41] In the same way that my kids, and this sounds real Mari's hand, really condescending to workforce. I don't intend it to be, but in the same way that my kids just feel happy on a day-to-day basis and they don't really understand. How me and the mum talk about how we parent and when we have a pinch point, what we do about it.
[00:34:56] Now, I, what I've never done is I've never sought to take our happiness plan out [00:35:00] there and say to our staff, look what we're doing to make you happy. And um, and a lot of that is, I suppose so enmeshed in the sort of like the nebulous, so the behavioral side of things, the cultural side of things that he probably would, if it feels like it would be counterproductive.
[00:35:14] If I say to you, I'm gonna make you happy right now, probably you're the immediate position that you'll take mentally is no, you're not. Who else made me happy? Um, so we've not had a huge amount of pushback on that because I've, I've always been quite [00:35:25] clear that we don't make it our mission to shout about what it is that we're doing, we're doing because it's the right thing to do.
[00:35:32] I think what, what really struck me is last year we had our, um, bi biennial employee opinion survey. And our trust, I call Academy Trust has grown over time. Um, but some of the metrics in that really hit me about, you know, we, we've we're doing it in the right way. So 94% [00:35:50] of our employees look forward to coming to work most days.
[00:35:53] 94% said that they look forward to coming to work most days. 95% have confidence in their school leadership team and believe that the school is managed effectively. Wow. You know, I would've taken 65, 75, 90 3%. Uh uh, uh, uh, our staff welcome working with colleagues from other schools, so I felt like we're getting that right.
[00:36:11] But 96% of our employees also agreed that the trust vision of [00:36:15] learning together to be the best it can be reflects what's important to them. So, you know, the collective buy to who we are without us forcing it on people and shoving it down the throats felt like, yeah, this is the right way to go about it.
[00:36:26] Now, in terms of when does, you know, when does schism kick in? I think what's interesting is where we've had culture clashes with individuals, where we've had a values clash, which has become apparent. And I, I struggle with this [00:36:40] personally because my, my starting premise is, look, people join us because. You know, it's education is vocational.
[00:36:44] People want to make a difference. We have had people who've worked with us whose values aren't the same, who've wanted to use power and authority to oppress others. And that's a real problem for me. And their inference has always been, ironically, the, you know, kindness is weakness, which is not surprising.
[00:37:03] Um, and what we've always done with that [00:37:05] is reach resolution really quickly and, and. You know, this sounds like it could sound like it's at odds with everything that I've said, but kindness isn't weakness. But kindness can only be perpetuated if you have ambassadors who are prepared to continue to, you know, spread that culture.
[00:37:19] And if you have somebody who isn't, you have to take that person outta your culture as quickly as possible. Now, you can try and affect change, but again, this is where I'm, I'm probably more black and white than I'm [00:37:30] in any other ways. I believe people are people. Yeah, I, I, I believe that, uh, who somebody is, is who they are.
[00:37:36] And you disguised compliance is like rust on a boat for an organization. If you aren't clear with who people are and what they actually believe in, um, then very quickly, you know, you lose those ambassadors. Your organizational culture shifts because people are telling you what you want to when they don't really model it.
[00:37:53] Um, but I also believe [00:37:55] therefore that if somebody, it's clear that somebody doesn't align with our values, there isn't really a way around that. It's about a parting of ways, and we make that change as quickly and as compassionately as possible. So, you know, in the, in the last decade, I haven't dismissed a single member of staff, but people have left us because we've agreed that it's the right thing for both parties, and they've moved on in the best, most strengths based way [00:38:20] possible, and the organization more importantly, has moved on without them and be better for it.
[00:38:24] Um, we check that saying it out loud and Craig, here, when I hear that back, it's gonna sound really harsh, but I think that that's where there's that misunderstanding that can's weaknesses isn't. Kindness is something that you absolutely have to value and be uncompromising and perpetuating. Yeah. And those values, and, and I think you said it there, like it's not the right thing for that person either.
[00:38:43] Yeah. Like different [00:38:45] value sets can be appreciated elsewhere. And as long as that person leaves, as you say, in a strength-based approach, they leave knowing that they can still do a good job or, or you know, they've still got these qualities. But actually they just don't fit in this jigsaw because this jigsaw's got, you know, this blue sky here and this tree here and you know you want this tower block and whatever.
[00:39:08] I don't know where I was going with that analogy.[00:39:10]
[00:39:13] Well, yeah, and it makes, you know, it makes perfect sense. So, Warren, what about you then? How do you approach if we bring it. Kind of to wellbeing, how do you approach your own wellbeing? What's, what are your non-negotiables? I think kindness and perspective is where I start, and, and that's been a big part of how I've been able to, um, achieve in this [00:39:35] role because, you know, I'm still here.
[00:39:36] I, I, um, so the perspective element is, look, on the one hand, this job comes with a huge amount of responsibility, and I take that responsibility really seriously, you know. But I also recognize that as responsible as I am, there are other people in the world who have got a bit more responsibility and accountability than I have.
[00:39:54] You know, so it's not Downing Street. I'm not trying to advise the United States President on policy, and, [00:40:00] and I've got a huge amount of agency and, and, and control over how I. Deliver in this role because there's only ever me that's done this job in this trust. So again, a a sense of perspective is really helpful.
[00:40:11] I like everybody, you know, I'm my own worst critic, so I'll come away from this conversation, really frustrated with myself at talking at a hundred miles an hour and probably saying things that I didn't know to have said. Um, but then I just have to remind myself that, you know, in the grand [00:40:25] scheme of things, does it, sorry, job, this isn't about the podcast, but how important is that?
[00:40:30] And I think staying humble. And not taking yourself too seriously is a really positive way for me to positively affect my wellbeing. So my parents don't really understand what I do. No, I, I went down to see him yesterday and, uh, I, I, I've had spent a bit of time in the capital recently, so I, I've been away and my wife's absolutely fine with, actually, [00:40:50] she prefers the rest when I'm not at home.
[00:40:52] She's an introvert and she needs that. Downtime away from me, but I went down and my mum were having a go at me. What you do? You were away again last week. It's ridiculous. And I'm like, I know mum, that I can't get the Secretary of State to come up to Linn to meet with me. It it, you know, it's that just, yeah.
[00:41:05] You go home and all you are is I'm, you know, it's what you feel like I'm that 15-year-old kid that just looks a little older. Um, and, uh, we're slightly. Bigger clothes than I [00:41:15] do, even though that age. And that helps keep a sense of perspective. Kids do. I mean, the reason why I share the stories about my two boys on social media is because it makes me laugh.
[00:41:23] And I think if other people see it, it might make them laugh as well. So I'm a big, I'm a big believer in the power of humor. Um, you know, so I try to see the fun and the funny aspects of almost everything, but probably first and foremost, myself. Because if you can't laugh at yourself, [00:41:40] God, you will spend this life agonized about other people laughing at you.
[00:41:43] So actually, I mean, my name, I always start with that ridiculous Warren carat, but it looks like it's spelled carat. Why when your surname could so easily be mispronounced, would you pick Warren and all the rabbit connotations that that rings with it? Why would you do that? Mom, dad, why? But you know, if you start there, you know, and laugh at how you are then [00:42:05] stress can't always find a way in because you're laughing instead.
[00:42:08] And then I think there were a couple of other things, which you've asked that, sorry. I mean, nobody else knows this really, um, outside of the people work close with. But, you know, I get up every morning at, um, 10 to five. I have an exercise regime and I run five days a week, and then two days a week, I, I do the, uh, five two fasting diet to just try and.
[00:42:26] Keep my body as close to what it was 15 [00:42:30] years ago as it possibly can be. Um, so that makes me feel better about myself and feels like I'm winning every day. 'cause it's body odd getting up at that time when you're naked. Um, and you've probably had a, a one ma back too many the night before and hate yourself for doing it, but then repeat the cycle again with.
[00:42:45] The next night. Um, and what, what I've started to do routinely now is if I do feel that I'm in a stressful place in the morning, if I get up and I'm feeling low, the one [00:42:55] thing which I learned about myself about five years ago is I love feeling low. You know what? I'm low. I, I don't, but you know what? I'm feeling down.
[00:43:01] I love embellishing my own misery. I love trying to find a reason to feel more angry with the world and more upset, and I love feeling a victim and nobody else is understanding. And then what I realized is I spent, you know, I'd spend days, not weeks, but days, feeling like that. And then once I got out here, I'm like, why have I just wasted so much time [00:43:20] feeling so negative?
[00:43:21] So if I am like that now when I drive in, I don't listen to the Today Program. I don't listen to, uh, a podcast. I listen to Van Morrison, or I listen to Wham or I do something to force myself to grab a hold of my mood and try and. Myself outta it. And, and there is some science around how, um, stimulation of your, um, anhe can help lift your mood and generate happiness.
[00:43:42] Um, so I, I force myself to take the [00:43:45] medicine that I absolutely don't want. And again, I don't manage to do it every time, Julie, but more often than not, I do. So that when I, when I, by the time I arrive at work, when I get out of the car, I'm happier, I'm in a better place. And, you know, and I've got, again, back to a position where I can have some perspective and feel like I've got a better chance of being kind.
[00:44:03] I love that. I love that we went from Warren Carrot to wham crowd [00:44:10] transition as wellbeing strategies. I mean, other bands are available. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a book in there though, isn't there? No, that's fabulous. And it's that intentionality, isn't it? And again, I think that comes with that self-awareness, doesn't it?
[00:44:24] That ability to go, right. Actually, what can I control at this minute in time? I feel like this, I recognize, I feel like this, what's within my power. Okay. Like if I [00:44:35] get outside, if I move, if I can, if I choose the tunes, I, I often say that to, to people and want talk about music. Like sometimes I can't cope with the DJ on the radio telling me what I need to listen to.
[00:44:48] Because I need to intentionally bring myself out. And we've talked about it on this podcast before when we talked Mark Dates, having like those playlist, this work [00:45:00] that allow you to and, and it's interesting and I think that point you made, sometimes you don't want to do it. Because actually you're kind of relish in this position of, actually, do I wanna feel better?
[00:45:13] You wanna feel angry and cross and irritated and you know, all of those things. So it could be hard to do that, can't it? To intentionally move yourself into that state. You need to do it. I, I need to do it [00:45:25] at the time where I want to do it the least. You know, I want to be like Smigel and Golan from the Lord of the Rings, staring at my own happiness and my misery in my hand and spitting at the world.
[00:45:33] Um, you know, and instead you have to, you, you have to become the hobbit instead, don't you? And be, uh, bright eye and bushy tailed and I mean, it's, if it were that easy. I think one other thing about the human condition that, that I find most fascinating is that our, um, subservience to our emotions is something that I don't think will ever truly mass.[00:45:50]
[00:45:50] You know, that's, that's a Vulcan quality into it. I'm a big trekky. So, and, uh, and even then it feels more like repression than the the mastery, um, for Spark. But yeah, just, but you know, it sounds really glib, but learning together to be the best we can be, feels like it's become as much a mantra for. What I want to be as a person, as it is for our organization.
[00:46:10] And again, you know, I just, I've worked in local government, I've worked in the NHS, where, you know, [00:46:15] slogans and strategies and, and organizational drivers are so divorced from who and what you are. And bloody hell, I get to work in an organization where the vision is absolutely what I think I need to be adopting every day as a human being.
[00:46:28] That's. That's just again, a real, I'm just so lucky and having kids helps reinforce that. You know, I think that probably being a dad means that I've got something else to focus on in terms of failings, because that's how you [00:46:40] feel most days with your kids. But yeah, it's, again, it's the control freak. With Julie, it's a choice.
[00:46:45] So choose the right way. Choose life, wasn't it, with the one T-shirts, weren't they? That's right. Yeah. Everything comes back to wha eventually. Love that. Right. Warren, we always ask, uh, the same final question and I, I think maybe I know where we're gonna go with this, but let's see. And we always [00:47:05] ask our guests for.
[00:47:06] Some words of wisdom, kind of in the spirit of compassion. If there's one kind thing that you could suggest that our listeners did for themselves today. What would it be? I don't, I think probably coming back to being lazy and coming back to my, uh, social media post is just try to put things into perspective for yourself.
[00:47:28] You know, because you only you [00:47:30] will ever know how much you care about something. Only you will ever know how much you've invested in something. Nobody else ever will is not fair ass. The others to understand why something's important to you or why something's making you feel, um, outta control. We, that sits in our world and, and we often, I think, fail to recognize how easy and simple it is for other people to just not grasp it because they're not in our head.
[00:47:52] Um, so just try and find a way to create. [00:47:55] Perspective for yourself. I, I run most days to do that. Um, and I compare myself to other roles and professions, uh, to give myself some perspective. So, you know, what I don't do on any given day is I don't have to take a decision of whether or not a life support machine is switched off.
[00:48:09] You know, I'm not a doctor who's literally hand in life and death. In my hands and, and in COVID, I used to come back to that a lot is, look, I know it's difficult and I know it's challenging and I know we're all stressed, but [00:48:20] we're not hospital ward. We know PPE trying to care for people who are dying whilst at the same time putting ourselves at risk.
[00:48:26] So I think if there's a way to do that, um, I, I just think that is the bet that that has helped me immeasurably in my life. My quality of life is so much better because I've found a way to find perspective and to laugh. Myself more than, um, cry. Um, I think it's, it's hard and it [00:48:45] takes reflection and, and reflection means that you've got to be really unfiltered.
[00:48:49] Um, uh, honest with yourself. And I think self-honesty is one of the harder qualities to adopt because we all really want to tell ourselves what we all really want to hear, and the ego drives you. But if you can find a way to be self honest, to understand your motivations, your insecurities, to really de deeply think about why am I feeling like this and what's driving it?
[00:49:08] And I accept that that's all [00:49:10] gly and that's horrible. But you know what? That's the human condition. That's the perspective. And if you can find a way to be. Perhaps not Sam Beckett from Quantum Leaping that we're not leaping from life to life, but go from day to day trying to put right rather than put wrong and hoping that you can make a better difference.
[00:49:27] Um, and you'll do that better if, if you can just laugh at yourself, if you're comfortable with yourself and if you know who and what you are. I don't know. Have I answered your question? Yes. Gorgeous. [00:49:35] Yes. Yeah. And all I kept thinking, well, what's, you know, your sense of perspective? And for me, I always. Try to think what my life would be if I was a submariner.
[00:49:48] 'cause that's my worst nightmare. And I think those people like are fabulous. Like you know, I do not have to be however many feet underneath the ocean, like with no [00:50:00] way of getting out any given time. And that is what helps me. I always think everything's all right because I can kind of move freely. So yeah, that's all that kind of has come to mind.
[00:50:11] So I think that perspective and finding whatever it is that helps you gain that perspective, I think that's a gorgeous piece of advice. Warren, it has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much. And we look forward to seeing where Nexus grows next and, [00:50:25] and what happens. So thank you, Warren. Excellent. Thanks a lot, Julie.