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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I'd like to invite you to take a moment.
Finding yourself in a moment of discovery.
Finding yourself landing and
softening in a moment of unknown.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Really getting a chance to unfold
in the paradox of discovery and
being in a position of unknown.
Uncertainty, this familiar discovery
matching with a curiosity of
unknown, this thirst of being a
seeker and simply breathing in
and breathing out the vibration
of curiosity, of self discovery,
all the while built on a
foundation of the unknown.
Feeling into the body, turning
towards your body, this body,
what is it saying to you as you
playfully explore self discovery
and the vast abyss of unknown?
Is it saying something?
Are you registering
the physical sensation?
Breathing in and breathing out,
Asking you to turn to the emotional
heart, the seat of emotion.
Is it excitement knowing that
there's discovery on the horizon?
Is there apprehension?
Is there anxiety when we know we are
at the precipice of self discovery?
and uncertainty.
Breathing in, once again, and
breathing out, letting the
full emotional space take hold.
And now, as we soften into thoughts,
allowing the chatter to quiet and
simply bear witness, bear witness
to the conscious and cognitive.
Bear witness to the play on words,
self discovery, uncertainty, curiosity,
unknown, seeker, and the
simple surrendering of
everything out of our control.
And as you breathe in and
breathe out, Watching yourself
reconnect to this body, your body,
placing hand on heart, hand on belly,
and watching the rise and fall of the
emotions, the physical, and the thoughts,
and simply coming back
to the present moment.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly Dose of
the Psychedelic Psychologist,
where I invite my guests to
share psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I get the wonderful gift
of being present to Genevieve.
Genevieve, it's good to see you.
It's good to hear you.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
Yeah, we got a lot to cover
and yet I just want to go slow.
What's alive, what's alive
in you in this moment?
What, when we talk all things
psychedelic, what's coming up for you?
Well, what's striking me, it struck
me in the meditation that you just did
was this the psychedelic experience
always ushers us directly into the
unknown and I'm never afraid there.
Like the unknown during
psychedelic experiences is never
scary or anxiety provoking.
And that is just freaking lovely.
And that's one of the things that I
bring back with me then when I come
back into the everyday world and.
Face the, what we know is called
the uncertainty impact that we all
the psychic stress of uncertainty.
, so yeah, that's, that's how I'm coming in.
Just excited about the conversation.
I love it.
Can we unpack that uncertainty
impact and just this idea of what
you just beautifully articulated?
Genevieve, talk to me a little bit
about what one does to breathe into that
uncertainty when you're in that space.
Well, we know this from a psychological
mental health perspective, that
there is something called psychic
stress and psychic stressors are
those things that no human can
avoid, which is fear, uncertainty.
And we also know when we study
the fear response, right?
How the.
Sympathetic nervous system responds
to any type of a stressor, like
uncertainty, that there is an
uncertainty impact on the body.
And what it does is it, it has a very
similar physiological impact as like a
fear or a stressor that's right in front
of us, but yet it's psychic in nature.
And, given all of the work we've done
together in all of these years, I feel
that the work is about coping really
elegantly with the The uncertainty
because the uncertainty while it is
and can be absolutely anxiety provoking
and as given our work, my recovery
from, adverse childhood experiences
and complex PTSD and some deep traumas
that really provoke and exacerbate
the uncertainty impact on my body.
It's revolutionary.
During psychedelics to engage
uncertainty from a playful creative
place where uncertainty no longer is
a monster that's there to hurt me.
And I have to prep my mind and body
and spirit by being really tight and
constricted like I did when I was a kid.
Whereas now as a self, a gentle
woman, a single mom, business owner,
you know, moving through the world.
Uncertainty now is my playground.
It's not as terrifying as it used to be,
and psychedelics has helped me with that.
It sure has, and I think to go back to
one of the curiosities I have is what
drew you, so we might be putting a little
bit of a backwards way of looking at it.
You're telling me what
you're getting from it.
What initially drew you to these?
I know you shared eloquently about
your family story, your personal
story, and I'm humbled by that.
What are you learning about the draw?
What are you being provided?
What I'm learning and being provided
is that there's a whole nother way to
engage the relationship to uncertainty.
That the thing that I'm in relationship
with changes, not because the thing
uncertainty changes, but because my
relationship with it changes and my
perception and my interpretation of
what I see is what changes and what
I've discovered through psychedelic
work or deep trauma healing work, that
involves psychedelics is that I get to
change my relationship to all of it.
It's all within my control.
It always has been, that, that is so
powerful and such a metric of relationship
health, which I don't think we talk
enough about in our world, because
everything is a pattern of relationships.
And so this capacity was psychedelics
to help me see what frames my
seeing, like to take the glasses
off and to like explore, like, well,
why do I see uncertainty this way?
And I'm not perfect at it.
I still, I still get freaked out
about many things when uncertainty is.
I'm not perfect.
I don't have a perfect
relationship with it, but.
I have a much more skillful relationship
with uncertainty now, what I really was
excited about is your, grateful humility
of saying that it's still lessons learned.
And one of the things that's a
breath of fresh air is that these
medicines are teaching me and
I'm using them appropriately.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Reality still.
It's like us walking down a dark alley.
If we became so cavalier to walk down the
dark alley, that would mean we're actually
not using resources like uncertainty
or fear or as a memory imprint.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I think it's very dangerous to not be.
Afraid.
I think it's very dangerous to not
admit that uncertainty is unnerving.
I think we have to draw from that
sense of, of like not being able, if it
reminds me, I, when I was really young,
like in middle school, my parents took
us to Oh, like there are some caves
down in like, like North Carolina.
And I remember we went into this one cave
and the guide told us what he was going
to do, which was turn all the lights off.
And we're deep dark in this cave.
And I have never seen a
darkness that dark before.
And sometimes when I'm in the
grips of uncertainty, like the
bad kind, the anxiety provoking
kind, that's where I'm at.
Because I remember in that cave, when
he turned the lights off, what was so
unnerving was that I felt like the bottom
had dropped out because there, there
was no sense of up, down, left, right.
And And for me, that's The thing that
psychedelics as an experience, whenever
I dip my toes in the experience, what
it provides me to bring back to my
everyday world is a sense of foundation,
even in the fact that I know that
there's really kind of no foundation.
I know that's so hard
to wrap words around.
No, I love it.
I think it's quite actually
mesmerizing that it provides a deep
kind structure that's permeable.
As I hear you talk about it and not
necessarily solid, Yeah, because I,
given the things I traversed, as a child,
which produced incredible anxiety, it
wasn't just anxiety during the day I was
having, you know, horrific like night
terrors and wakings and those night
terrors and those wakings were always
steeped in this sense of like the bottom
being pulled out from underneath me.
At any moment's time, and
then me just falling and not
knowing how to catch myself.
And so the time that, and that's
what uncertainty feels like to me.
It feels like, The rug is pulled out
without any awareness whatsoever.
And so my body has to always stay
tight and contracted, which is not
good for energy flow or becoming right.
But, psychedelics has helped me
to relax in that uncertainty, to
remember that it's okay if the bottom
drops out, cause I know how to fly.
Like it's, it's okay.
And so that I feel like
every time I engage this.
incredible plant medicine.
It helps me to remember that I'm not a
dead weight, just falling through space,
that when there's complete darkness and
I can't see, and I can't feel any edges,
then it's time to like, actually grow.
And Fly and feel the the beauty
the beauty of weightlessness.
I really appreciate that relationship,
yeah, it's it's Did you ever think that
was gonna be present on the precipice
of when you started exploring this work?
Was that even on your register?
No, like not even at all.
I had never had any lived
experiences of that.
But what's so, what's so fascinating
to me as I reflect on the impact from
like a cellular level that psychedelics
provides me is that, there was
something in my body always reaching
for that feeling and that knowing,
even though I had no idea what it was.
I could never name it.
I couldn't tell you what I was seeking,
but there was just something that I was
being drawn toward and it was that, that
capacity to, to almost feel weightless.
So no, I had no idea.
It feels called to me to talk about
the idea of self discovery because
it opens up quite a paradigm shift.
When I listened to you, rather than
worrying about uncertainty, I'm
hearing this just, Low of consistent
self discovery and curiosity.
Is that accurate?
Absolutely.
What are you feeling right now?
As you're I get the privilege
of watching you smile.
What's coming up?
Yeah Well, I think what I discovered
especially with using the plant medicine
therapeutically was that Oh, I had it.
It's it's here.
I was thinking it when you
were asking the question.
It runs away, but it'll be back.
What happens therapeutically
with the medicine is that
I just feel like when there's
a reconnection with my basic
nature and myself, because
it helps me to remember that.
I do know myself because the
trauma and all of the upbringing
stuff disconnected me from myself.
The medicine allows me to
remember that I know who I am
and that I know that I'm capable.
And then whenever I emerge from,
especially a therapeutic psychedelic
experience, I'm left with such like
a breath of fresh air of remembering
that even at the worst moments of
the trauma, I was fully with myself.
I never abandoned myself.
That's super cool to remember, right?
I just didn't know it,
but I was always there.
And that was something in one of my
most recent, therapeutic sessions using
plant medicine was this awareness, I
invited myself to pose a question
to my, to myself or to the, you
know, wherever, whoever I speak to
when I go into those states, right.
Everybody, I think has communication
with different energy, which is all
the universal energy, of course.
But I, I asked about that because
I, I have these memories, especially
when I do the therapeutic psychedelics
of, it wasn't just the stuff that
happened to me that was awful.
It was that I was left alone in it, right.
It wasn't just the traumatic
events when they happened.
The problem was is that after the
traumatic events happened, no one
was around and I was like alone in my
room for like hours and I one of my
last sessions with the plant medicine.
I asked about that.
I said, why was I so abandoned?
I don't understand.
And what.
Information I received was, well,
because the people closest to you
weren't safe to be there in that
space with you and you weren't alone.
You were holding yourself the whole time.
You were being held and you were
being held by the absence of the
people who were there to harm you.
That was really mind bending to be
just like, well, so wait, so again,
the absence in that particular
context was actually protective.
That was, that was a
new revelation for me.
I always assumed absence meant that
I was defective or unworthy of care.
But absence in that regard meant, no, you
were being very protected in that space.
Held by you.
Held by, held by you.
Yeah.
Your soul, your spirit,
everything you, yes.
That land in your body right
now, what's emotionally coming
up for, as you say that?
Yeah, I feel, I always
feel it in my throat.
I always feel like, like a tightening
in my throat, you know, just when I,
when I feel emotional or I feel the
truth of something, yeah, I feel it.
It's really beautiful.
I didn't realize that.
It's impressive.
I'm seven.
Right.
Yeah.
That's powerful.
What would you say to her right now?
You're not going to make me cry.
I want to.
What's coming up right now?
I just, well, it's again, this sense of
fierceness, even at like six or seven.
And, but it was a gentle fierceness.
Like I remember whenever I was left
alone after those really hard moments,
I nurtured and played with my dolls.
And in moments where I was left
alone in deep, dark pain and
uncertainty, I extended love and
care to my, to like my dolls.
I just played, I played a caretaker
and it felt so good to, to, to be
loving when I was not being loved.
I didn't realize that
was in me the whole time.
And it oozes out of you today, as I
know you, as you're, you walk with
love and you walk with compassion.
Not only for yourself, but for everybody.
Yeah.
That's power.
That's power.
Discovering.
And how is it sitting in
your body in this moment?
It's overwhelming.
In a good way.
I bow deeply to you.
I'm laughing on purpose so I don't cry.
I'm trying to keep it together.
I appreciate you.
It's, it's remarkable too that to
be able to integrate it and do the
work that you're doing it's, you're
not steering away from anything.
What gives you that courage?
What gives you that power and strength?
I think it's alignment, it's the
sense of knowing like that's always
been me and it always will be me.
And so it's just so simple to feel such
power from that knowing and that that
sense of alignment of yeah, that was
always me even in the hardest moments.
And then it was after I.
Became a mom that I realized that power
that I felt when I was a nurturer in
times of pain and suffering when I
was little, when it came pouring out
as a mother, that's when I started
to realize that's innate in me.
And if I can bring that kind
of love and nurturing to my own
children, I can turn that on myself.
And then that's when I started to
really dive into psychedelic work
and just douse myself with it during.
That's the public service announcement.
Douse yourself with what?
Self love during psychedelic sessions.
It's so beautiful and
it changes your cells.
I mean, I'm, I'm, I I've
not, this is not a research.
I can only give you the lived experience,
which I think is actually more powerful.
We don't need data and we don't
need numbers for this stuff.
I agree with you.
It gets in the way.
It's helpful.
I'm all about quantitative
data, but that's not the story.
No, the story is self love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's not quantifiable in those ways.
And I just, I find when I'm
in, And complete reverence and
connection with the medicine.
There are facets of myself that
I get to see and explore that I
don't have access to otherwise.
Right.
Right.
You're saying there's so much
beautiful things of your courage, of
your trust in the uncertainty, and I
know your story to be deeply evolved.
What would one say?
Because I know you're not
going at it talking to unicorns
and fluffy cotton candy here.
I mean, you're you're doing
the work it's shadow work.
Sometimes it's family of origin work
sometimes How does one present that trust
and healing such a long journey like this?
What would you say gives you
energy to continue to heal to?
Join forces with yourself I love that.
I love that.
I like that posing of
joining forces with the self.
I think I'm trying to find ways that it's
most relatable to the human experience.
It's going to sound cheesy.
And I'm aware of what I'm about to say
is going to sound super cheesy, it's
almost like, how when you're first falling
in love, there's this like captivating,
just like, like tractor beam of just
energy, just like making you want to
steep and be in that all the time.
That's what I feel, but like toward myself
and, and it's, it's really mesmerizing.
And so it's energizing in and of itself.
And anytime that I engage in the
plant medicine, I, I ignite that
sense of relationship with the self.
And it's just a very beautiful, it
isn't, it isn't an egotistical, like
narcissistic, like looking at the self.
It's a.
It's a mesmerization of, I don't
know if that's a word today.
It is today.
That's another t shirt that I have.
Well, it's a mesmerization of the
human, the tenacity of the human spirit.
I'm just like, damn, I went
through some stuff that almost.
literally killed my soul, right?
Like bad, bad.
I, and, and so I'm just like mesmerized
by the, resilience of a soul,
especially when it's given the same
love and energy that it pours out.
The psychedelic experiences for me
immerse me in that remembering, and then
because of the psychedelic experiences,
those energize that remembering of
that, like resilience of the soul.
So then I can take that lived
experience that embodied.
Memory from the psychedelic time and
I can then integrate it into my every
day and in those integration moments,
I'm like seeding those moments and then
they're growing and they're blossoming.
And so I'm like freaking
creating it in reality.
I'm like pulling it.
From the ethers into reality.
I didn't know I was that magical
and I don't think it's just me.
I think it's just the freaking magic
and when you know how to play with it
and use it with reverence and intention.
Wow.
It can change everything.
I am hearing a deep sense of gratitude
because You recognize that it can be
locked and it can also be unlocked
for everybody and I I'm humbled in it
too Is it's fuck I know nothing, but
I do know everyone deserves to have
self love self compassion self grace
And what I'm really grateful that
you're saying is you you know, it's not
there's no fucking way It's egoic when
it comes to just being compassionate.
That's not narcissistic.
There's no that's Actually quite
doesn't it feel that way Feel like
almost texturally the difference.
Oh god, 100%.
I just kind of get chills
when you said that like Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just, we're wrapping words
around things that are difficult to
wrap words around, which is important
because it helps to ground it.
But, yeah, it's just, it's,
it's how I feel when I love my
daughters and they love me back.
It's just genuine.
And I never knew that you could feel that
for the self and I never knew how powerful
it would be to be able to feel that for
the self in a very genuine, authentic way.
And it changes, it changes everything
because it softens my perception.
And then when my perception is
softened, I have that, I do yoga, right.
And, sword fighting, even in sword
fighting, I do historical European
martial arts and both in yoga and in HEMA,
you're to have a soft gaze on the torso.
Right.
And, and you're seeing everything
and nothing all at the same time.
And that's how I feel about self love.
It's just like this overriding,
very soft gaze, which then allows
your perception to be softened.
And when your perception is soft and
not assessing for threat and danger at
every turn, you just see so much more.
And it's just like,
It's always been there.
And that's when I would start
after I started doing psychedelics,
I got a little pissed.
I was like, you've got
to be fucking kidding me.
Like this has all been in, in
front of me the whole time.
And I just couldn't see it.
But then your defense.
Yeah.
And that's why I appreciate you and
deeply respect what you're saying.
It was, you came to the invitation though.
And what I want to just.
honor in you Genevieve is the motivation
for working with psychedelics was to
have the courage to look at the unknown
and you were curious and now even though
it's in you and I see it landing on
you right the it took the invitation to
yeah it's very courageous though you're
absolutely right because it's squeezed
out and the minute you squeeze it out
you gotta you gotta fucking face it
you gotta work with it You do, but you
know what I've discovered through this
work is it's scarier to not face it.
Just look at, just look at square
in the eye and it shrinks in size.
Just look at square in the eye and
it's that compassion and it just
softens all of it and it makes
it then malleable to work with.
Thank you.
It's no longer razor sharp dag daggers
that are there to threaten you.
Well that, that's because
you are a sword fighter.
That is true.
I do know how to wield a sword.
Literally no shit it when you coming up.
I, I too, if you had the
sword in front of me,
I think all people should
learn how to wield a sword.
It's brilliant.
It's just magical.
Genevieve, what are you doing
to be gentle with yourself?
What are you doing to
walk with gentleness?
Oh, I love that question.
I think for me, the first response
that comes to mind is, I'm just, and
especially given our theme of uncertainty,
whenever I'm in uncertain spaces, I like,
I think that if I just rush and like
run through it, it won't be so scary.
And I've learned to do the opposite.
I've learned now an uncertainty
to go actually slower.
And I've learned like, well, wait,
instead of rushing and pushing and
running and being frantic, do the inverse.
The rule of inverse, you call it, right?
The sword fighting thing, you know,
somebody comes at you hard, like you
do the opposite energy because it, it
allows you to get the momentum on, or
the advantage, because if two people
are coming in fighting with swords and,
and they're just like, There's different
parts of the sword and, you know, one part
of the sword, it's like hard and soft.
It's like if two people are just coming
in hard all the time, it's just not even a
fun sword fight because it's not elegant.
And so I've learned that whenever
I feel incredibly scared or
uncertain, which definitely happens,
I just go slower and I get softer.
And it's the opposite of what
my body and mind want to do, but
I've trained it enough now for
that to be its basic response.
And it's really beautiful.
And it helps me to then just flow a
lot more gently and softly and remind
myself that just because I am going
slow and I'm being gentle and soft,
it doesn't mean that I'm not fierce.
Like I'll, I'll, if I'm going
slow and gentle and soft and the
uncertainty, and there is a real, very
real threat, I'll take care of it.
You know what I mean?
So in fact, I have this little
placard that I have on my,
oh, it's hard for you to see.
It says, stay positive.
It's right on my desk.
But then I wrote in Sharpie underneath it.
It says, go slow, dot,
dot, dot, go slower.
And I have this right on my workspace
to remind me like being frantic doesn't.
But being fierce and being slow is quite
beautiful and powerful and safe and safe.
It's very safe.
Thank you.
For everybody.
Not just myself, but everybody.
Right?
Because I don't ever want to provoke fear.
I don't ever want my
presence to provoke fear.
Intentional.
It's intentional and it sounds like
it's carrying yourself with integrity.
Intentional integrity.
Just compassion.
Correct.
I'm humbled.
I'm humbled.
I'm humbled.
With this relationship and trusting
me on this journey with you,
and I'm deeply, deeply Excited
to see the unfolding and watch.
I appreciate you.
Thank you.
Yeah, and in this lifetime
and many others Blessings.
Thank you.