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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:02.47
Rick
What's up this week Tyler
00:04.91
tylerking
A lot I always I feel like I always say oh not that much just as like a normal automatic greeting and then I actually have a lot of stuff to talk about so I got stuff to talk about today. Stuff's going on. Yeah, ah so I've got ah updates on a variety of different things. Um one i.
00:13.85
Rick
Ooh tell me more.
00:22.61
tylerking
Like kind of more personal. Well, it's work related but I've been working nights and weekends more lately which I feel like for a couple of years I've kind of been saying is a goal of mine and I haven't been doing it much like two years ago that was my kind of like yearly goal for myself and then when we did the recap I hadn't done it at all. And I feel like I've kind of hit a little bit of momentum here.
00:44.90
Rick
Is it because of something you're doing intentionally or is it because like the the stars are aligning and it's just happening naturally.
00:51.95
tylerking
Yeah I think it's both I the start the version of stars lining is I've been doing a lot more coding lately like I'd say at least two full days of coding per week. Um, and that's just a it's work I enjoy more. But even aside from enjoyment. Feel like if I have a ah day full of meetings at the end of the day I'm just like well a I'm exhausted I don't want to work more and b I can't have another meeting at seven p m there's no one to meet with right? like so and I don't have any momentum going into it or if I spend the whole day coding five o'clock can come and I can just be like well I'm just going to keep doing it. Um, so that's the stars aligning part but then the other thing I've been doing I don't know if you ever do this but I found myself so I'm like okay I've been coding. There's stuff I am excited about working on and then I've got like an email inbox I haven't been like overwhelmed or anything but I've got like 5 random things I need to handle. And it's always tempting to be like it's night time like this is kind of bonus hours I don't have to like this is a time to catch up is how I sometimes feels like let's go answer some emails or let's go do the things I don't want to do the last couple weeks I've had a rule for myself which is if it's not 9 to 5 Monday through Friday I have. Full permission to work on just whatever I want it doesn't have to be the most important thing for the company. It doesn't have to be the top of my priority list. Just whatever I think would be fun. Um, and as a result I've been able to just you know, keep moment you know I've probably put in an extra 20 hours off hours over the last week just
02:18.34
tylerking
Having fun, but it's still like stuff. That's really valuable and and good to be working on.
02:20.35
Rick
I Love that like if you if you if you work extra. It feels like it should be things that motivate you and give you energy and they're so often like I I spend my I'm just thinking through how I spend my extra time. It's like catching up off the stuff that I don't want to do.
02:36.40
tylerking
Um, yeah.
02:38.30
Rick
Um, and that doesn't make me want to work more hours. It makes me want to get done with it as quickly as possible move on.
02:40.53
tylerking
Right? exactly and if if you have the willpower to to power through it I think that's fine but I just kind of accepted the fact that if it's something like I'm at a point in my life where I don't need to work after 5 I don't need to work more than 40 hours a week and I just wasn't doing it if it wasn't fun. And so I just kind of accepted that and so yeah, anyway I'm having a great time with it. Um, yeah, thanks. Ah sorry I have this notion doc did I have other things I want to say there? No I said it all. Ah I also want to give an update on something I think we talked about in the last episode.
03:02.88
Rick
That's awesome I Love it.
03:17.56
tylerking
That we're going to put like a little talk to sales ah kind of call to action on our homepage you remember talking about that at all, we did it. It's done and it's going great. Um, yeah, as a reminder this is it was actually a suggestion from a listener. Ah, and.
03:21.80
Rick
My guess is you decided not to do it What that is a surprise.
03:37.47
tylerking
It sounds obvious like when someone comes to our website. Let them talk to our salesperson that that sounds obvious previously. What we're doing is buying leads and our sales guy was like calling you know, emailing and calling leads. They were like warm and that they filled out a form but like anyway now you go to our homepage or our pricing page if you wait. 10 or 15 seconds a little thing will pop up that's like would you rather talk to sales and it just goes straight to his savvy cow link to book a time with him. It's yeah so I think we're averaging something like 3 ish meetings per day for him. Um, 100% attendance.
04:01.28
Rick
And it's booking meetings that were were not being booked previously.
04:15.72
tylerking
Which is big because like previously when we buy leads and again I need to stress when we buy them these are people looking for a crm who like on the phone with the lead gen service. They book a call with Alex but 50% of the people don't show up because they're they're just not warm enough and then of the people who do show up. He has to like hound them and eat like There's all this follow up and stuff the people coming to our website who who click on this are obviously interested in us. Um, so way more qualified and he said 100 % attendance so far he said ah almost all multi-user accounts and some are like 20 to 30 user accounts which is bigger than what we were getting. When we were buying the leads. Um, they're all really interested like probably a very high percentage of them will will become customers so it's going really? well.
04:58.86
Rick
And I'm I'd be willing to bet that a lot of these customers are are going elsewhere previously. These are people who were not converting online. You're not like.
05:06.12
tylerking
Yeah that's the thing that's it's hard to know for sure some of these probably would have converted but like you know qualitatively 1 of them was like I was just on your website trying to get an answer couldn't get it I was about to leave this thing popped up. I said yeah, let's see if they can answer it. So certainly there. There are some examples where they they told us they would not have used us otherwise.
05:28.40
Rick
You're going to get so much good feedback on on these calls Even if there's no like additional revenue that comes through just the the feedback on the experience from a live person. It's going to be huge.
05:39.14
tylerking
Yeah, so so far I'm willing to call this a big win now can can we go into brainstorm mode for a second. What I want is for this to be Alex's our sales guys full time job. Um, the 3 calls a day is like.
05:43.11
Rick
Sure.
05:53.39
tylerking
It's not that far off like that's a third of a full time job or something when you factor in there's also some follow up and he's also got other stuff like bigger leads that need multiple calls so he's got other stuff going on too. But what I'd love to do is turn off buying leads entirely partially because it's always kind of been a waste of time and also. It's we're spending $60000 a year on the leads themselves. So even if if we can just get the same result but not spend $60000 a year that's already a pretty big win. So but we're already kind of like doing it's a pretty obvious in your face cta right now I don't know what we can do to book more of these calls.
06:28.99
Rick
So so the brain you you want to brainstorm how do we? How do we get more than 3 meetings per day.
06:29.13
tylerking
I have 1 idea but I wanted to hear your thoughts before I give mine. It could be how to get more than three. It could just be like at the end of the day. The question is how do we use Alex's time effectively and I don't think the software advice ppl thing. We've been doing is like having seen it like this thing working it makes it so obvious that the other thing wasn't working.
06:48.89
Rick
Well before you turn off the the software advice thing like is that turning in is that paying back like is that a profitable channel for you.
06:56.44
tylerking
It is barely profitable. It is so the payback period is like 3 years on the money we're spending and that doesn't count Alex's time so basically no.
07:04.84
Rick
Oh and are these are these good customers that you're getting that are expanding over time or leading to referrals that are excited. Um, or are these people that. You know maybe I had already hit your website or our unsophisticated buyers not ideal customers any any. Any.
07:19.86
tylerking
I don't think I don't think there are people who had hit our website otherwise I they seem to be pretty standard small accounts like 1 to 5 user counts but otherwise normal.
07:28.65
Rick
So the way I would think about something like this is just to kind of frame the conversational a little bit differently is you've got so you've got like sort of you know in the in the growth. Ah circle dartboard channels that you're testing like you've got this software advice thing. That's probably like you you you were. Playing with it and you were pushing on it. But now you've got a better sort of Mousetrap and so shifting your resources towards that mouse trap to maximize it makes total total sense to me. Um I would just like if you decide to paul software advice I would just make sure you document sort of learnings and have it like ready to turn back on at some point so you don't lose the effort like there's there's some.
08:01.51
tylerking
A.
08:06.51
Rick
Major value in what you've invested in so far, you don't want to like start from 0 again. Um, so ah, but like the way I would be thinking about this is like max alex out save the sixty k you can then reinvest the 60 k into a new sales hire eventually if you can really maximize this out.
08:10.72
tylerking
Um, yeah.
08:23.45
Rick
Um, and then turn back on the software advice leads if you need more leads at some point. Um, so so that's where I go. Um, so so how do we get more sales calls for Alex on the traffic that's already coming to the website within the flow that you're already doing is the is the brainstorm.
08:26.81
tylerking
Um, yeah.
08:37.22
tylerking
Yeah, that's right and I have an idea to pitch you I realize I'm kind of putting you on the spot here. Um, and or so it's how do you get more calls. The other thing is like if it's possible. A good way to spend his time is to follow up more with the people. He's already talking to um, rep.
08:51.37
Rick
I'd want to I want to pay attention to his pipeline. So I think this is less about more calls right now your 3 calls a day is a lot. Um, so for for for phase one. So ah, you can write. You can learn a lot from 3 calls a day over a course of a month that's 3 calls a day times. 20 business days that's 60 calls.
09:02.92
tylerking
Um, is.
09:08.96
Rick
Um, that's 60 opportunities. So I you know I would be wanting to know like how many how many ah were of these 60 calls were qualified. What's the revenue potential and what's the rent when rate and then what's the I don't want to understand the the the sales cycle here. So are we creating opportunities for these I think you call them deals in your in your platform. Great.
09:20.60
tylerking
Um, yeah.
09:27.73
tylerking
Um, ah pipelines so we have a we have a lead pipeline so they're they're going in his leads. Yeah.
09:28.69
Rick
Pipelines El Lead pipe. Yeah, so like you know what is our wind rate on these you know and how much time are they taken to close how many calls that kind of thing and I'll be really focused on honing that to understand. Ah what? what? this channel can produce and then I would also want to compare that to um, historicals like are we getting. Ah, we seeing a massively an uptick in anything whether it's more conversions on the traffic we're getting is it ah higher Acvs Annual Contract Values is there anything that stands out Here'd I'd be more interested in like understanding like.
09:59.41
tylerking
Um, yeah.
10:05.19
Rick
How to convert what I'm getting then getting more leads. Um, and okay.
10:08.70
tylerking
Well, yeah, and sorry I guess that was we're doing that for sure. Um, he has if we turn off or the the plan right now is to cut software advice volume in half to free up time for this. Ah, the question is like can we. Kill the rest and fill that time productively.
10:25.49
Rick
Got it. So okay, that's a more specific question you're turning off so you want to turn off software advice but you need to you don't want to lose ah the calendar time for Alex.
10:34.20
tylerking
Yeah, um, so the the 2 main things I'm considering here and everything you just said is absolutely right? I just kind of skipped that part. But yeah, like we're like he's putting everyone in a pipeline. We're going to track conversion or it's so early we don't have any of those numbers yet. But um. Qualitatively, it's obvious that it's working way better than software advice was but 1 is spend more time on follow ups and the other is try to get on more conversations. Can I throw an idea at you here. So the the question is of all the people on our site for any reason who are the ones most.
10:57.84
Rick
You know of course.
11:06.96
tylerking
Who are ah best the best fit for. Do you want to talk to Alex and 1 of the challenges with this is scheduling. Well yeah, we don't well, that's after someone signed up and paid or not necessarily paid. But we don't know if they're a multiuser count right? off the bat. Um, so what we're toying with the scheduling is really hard so there's times where it's like.
11:10.86
Rick
Multi-user accounts.
11:16.36
Rick
Um.
11:26.79
tylerking
He's got a free 30 minutes but he doesn't have a call like what does he do? What we're toying with is any so our if you go to our site. There's like a a figure what the language is. It's try a live demo I think it says see how it works or something.
11:36.77
Rick
M.
11:39.83
tylerking
If you click on that it like takes you into lesson. It's it's like a real less knowing Sarah account but you didn't have to sign up. It's just a live demo. We're toying with if Alex has free time just like giving him like here's a list of all the people who are doing a live demo right now and like characteristics about what they've done and then he could just push a button and it would pop up a thing on their screen saying. Hey I'm free right now if you want me to walk you through this and then just put them in a video chat immediately.
12:04.47
Rick
If you if they when they fill out get get your test account. Um, for that demo walk live demo walk through. Do they put in any information about themselves to get the the demo like do you collect any data about the person.
12:14.37
tylerking
By Demo you mean like the free trial or the live demo thing I'm talking about.
12:19.59
Rick
Um, the live demo thing you're talking about like when they when they go through that and he's like looking at the list of people in a live demo like does you does he know like where they're based like what industry they're in Um, what how many accounts they how many users they would have.
12:24.34
tylerking
Um, yeah.
12:33.81
tylerking
So Our goal is to keep that as low friction as possible.. The only thing we ask them is their industries because we'll customize the demo for them. Um, so we'll know their industry now based on their Ip we can know where they're Located. We can see like have they visited the managed users page so we can see stuff like what has their behavior been in there. But we don't have information. We've collected from them if that makes sense.
12:54.91
Rick
So the rule. The only thing I would change what you're saying is I would add 1 more field. There is how many accounts are do you estimate? you need to? ah you know before you go go to your test account and then you know if it's over a certain amount. Ah then flag Alex.
13:06.60
tylerking
Um I like that I I would push back on that if I thought it provided no value to the user because the reality is the vast majority of our customers are self-serve. I don't want to like make it worse for them to help Alex here. Well yeah so I think but I think it'll actually help the demo experience because it's like if you're going to be by yourself because the demo comes with 4 users by defaults. You can see how multi-user stuff works if you're going be by yourself. We shouldn't even show you those other users. So yeah.
13:18.34
Rick
Make it optional are.
13:30.40
Rick
Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah like ah just me or like you let us customize the number of users you can see complex features or not you know like yeah, there's ah that's a great ah like lead in there. Yeah, and then yeah like if you if you can identify people that are like looking for multiple users you could even like.
13:39.83
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome I Like that idea. Um so I.
13:48.54
Rick
Ah, more aggressively do the talk to sales call to action faster. Ah yeah, so that's what I would be I guess where I was going with my question when you asked me like who's most likely to book a call I said multi-user accounts. But what I was really saying was how do you identify.
13:53.80
tylerking
Um.
14:04.15
Rick
Ah, you know more? Ah, the subset of traffic that is for multi-user accounts and then give that a more custom sales first experience. Um, because that's what they probably want in most cases.
14:06.97
tylerking
Um, right.
14:15.14
tylerking
Um, yeah, yeah I Wonder if there's even a way on the marketing site to this. This is probably too annoying again. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and make the self-serve experience bed but you could imagine go to the pricing page and then like. If the multi-user price is behind a tab or something where they have to click to indicate. They're curious. What the price is for more than one user just anything like that that could flag hey this is a person we want to you know, try and schedule a call with that's probably too much.
14:39.60
Rick
Yeah, anything that anything I agree with like like you kind of have to plan if I and say like we will not we. We cannot make the current experience worse like that's our constraint. But if there's a way to like have people like self select but like out of the current flow.
14:51.87
tylerking
Here.
14:59.51
Rick
Ah, with call to actions like the talk to sales like what you've done so far. There's a reason that people are clicking on it and that they tend to have larger counts like the current flow isn't working for those people. Um, and so if you can identify areas where people can sort of self select out without you know it being ah like annoying. Um.
15:06.48
tylerking
Um, yeah.
15:17.83
tylerking
Um, yeah.
15:18.22
Rick
Then that's like triggers those are lead triggers for ah for a sales team or Alex in this case.
15:23.75
tylerking
Put putting that question on the the demo creation pages. Yeah that that's a great idea I just got what I wanted out of this conversation. Um, so yeah I'll and yeah I'll think more about the other thing I've got to call a meeting with Alex later today. So great. Thank you? um.
15:38.52
Rick
Can we can We talk a little bit ah just like I think it's interesting to think about ah buyer psychology when you're selling like ah to a decision maker who is the user versus a decision maker who is often like representing different end users like it's a very different like how do you market to that.
15:46.93
tylerking
Are.
15:55.44
Rick
To that person. How do you sell to that person we deal with this a lot of leg of health where it's like the person we're selling to like yes they have a need but like oftentimes like they also have to consider other people's needs and so it doesn't like if you're buying Health insurance for your family. You might be able to Transact Async But if you're buying.
16:05.81
tylerking
Um.
16:12.47
Rick
Ah, Health insurance for your for your family and all of your employees. It requires like multiple calls conversations and like the the buyer Journey is very different.
16:19.32
tylerking
Yeah, this is what like I think probably everyone listening to this and probably you and me when you go to a website and there's like a talk to sales button and there's no pricing information. There's no sign up, you're like fuck this like this is not how I want to buy but the reality is some people do want to buy that way because they're not. Like if they demoed the product right? there They'd be like well this this doesn't answer any of my questions.
16:39.60
Rick
Yeah, and like I mean you can still like show the pricing but like if I were evaluating I guess like I I didn't talk to sales for my cm experience but I was by myself at the time. So like I was that single user so I could evaluate everything. But if I was if I had 10 employees.
16:50.22
tylerking
He.
16:58.36
Rick
And I was buying a cm for them and I was and I wasn't just going to default to salesforce like i't want to talk to everyone like I don't want to demo a custom demo. Potentially I Don want to I'd have like lots of edge case questions I might I probably want to do a demo for my team then we get them balled in. There's a whole like different process and consideration.
17:12.28
tylerking
Ah.
17:15.54
Rick
That a self sign up flow doesn't address.
17:17.63
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. So I'll keep reporting back on this. Um I think once we have numbers I'll share some numbers on how the existing talk to sales thing works and then it's going to take a little technical work to get this. To give Alex the ability to pop up a thing in a demo account and say hey do you want to hop on a call right now that that'll take a little bit to build. But I think we're pretty much 100 % going to do it so I'll ah I'll report back. Yeah, how about you? What's going on.
17:42.91
Rick
That's cool. You're building a sales team. This is this is quite awesome.
17:47.67
tylerking
I I I would be shocked if we hire another salesperson. We're building up 1 salesperson all right. We'll see we'll see.
17:56.36
Rick
You're starting a sales team. Ah, ah, um, yeah, my first update is um, one of our core values that leg uphelp is recharge and um, this is the first year we're actually practicing it. It's kind of.
18:11.28
tylerking
Um.
18:11.35
Rick
Um, you kind of have to be profitable to be able to recharge like you can't just like be unprofitable and like be okay with you know, not doing something but we hit profitability. So now we're like okay we could actually live our values. It's kind of funny how that works right? like default alive allows you to live your values default Dead doesn't um.
18:17.83
tylerking
Um, yeah.
18:25.33
tylerking
Um, yeah, there's a lot of stuff you say in the early days that are it's aspirational. It's not actually true yet.
18:34.48
Rick
Yeah, um, but but anyway, um, it's been interesting to sort of watch his um you know approach to coming off of this like a drill and rush of our our big season which is like November first through January Fifteenth and it's been a month. And just like every week. He's just calmer clear ah more like like kind of you know when like ah you know a superhero like extracts energy from people and they're just like powering up like I can just see I've watched that happen with Jd over the last few weeks and it's like okay, he's ready to pounce man like and so what? what? that's doing for me is like.
19:05.25
tylerking
Um, just kind. Nice.
19:10.30
Rick
I'm actually feeding off that energy and going. Okay I've got to help Jd um, and so it's ah it's really fun to to work with him on on that. Um, the main thing that we're focused up. So so 1 thing he's been working on while he's been recharging is is just sort of start to like spend some time thinking about how do we grow airr. Um. With the profit first framework which I've talked about in previous episodes. Um, it really incentivizes him to like grow a r any way possible without any sort of constraints on a comp plan. Um, and so he's you know the first thing he said is like I've got at least I've got 10 to 20 clients. Worth you know. Anywhere from 5 to $15000 in errorr that I could aor today if I were if we were licensed in Texas and set up and so it was like that's a nobrainer. Let's go. Do it now. Fifteen k total. Yeah, 5 to fifteen k total. Um.
19:56.36
tylerking
Um, yeah, sorry 5 to 15 each or total total. Okay, cool.
20:07.20
Rick
And then you know once you start doing it. They have friends you know and so we get to test this local market. There's a whole like other reason to do this which is where ah most health insurance agents we talked to in terms of how they're growing. It's local networking which JD is not able to do in Utah because he lives in Texas and so.
20:10.44
tylerking
Um, right? yeah.
20:25.30
Rick
Unblocking that in Texas could be a huge growth on block there. There is like upside on getting grabbing that fifteen k 5 to fifteen k um, in air are yeah I know.
20:32.79
tylerking
Yeah I mean let's say it's 10 That's 10% of the the growth for the year right? because the basically the goal is to go from a hundred to 200 yeah that's awesome. Great. So what? oh that's not even okay, that's just like he has a bunch of friends.
20:43.11
Rick
Yep, and that's just consumers. So there's no employers. But yep, just in his co-working space. But yeah, so um, so so ah, the learning so far. So so that was like okay, let's go do that and so he started going like Rick.
20:52.50
tylerking
That's pretty second Wow. Okay, yeah, that's awesome.
21:02.81
Rick
Like your job is to make sure we're licensed your job is to make sure we're appointed like please do this and so um I have gone. We've gotten a license in Texas now. Ah, the agency is licensed I am licensed Jd is license. We're now working through appointments which is the biggest pain in the ass ah like these carriers.
21:17.32
tylerking
So.
21:21.30
Rick
These these insurance companies. The systems are like so bad. Ah, and so and it's different for every single one sometimes you have to go through a third party The third party is like old school sales ah insurance agent person like slight I'm sorry I'm gonna offend people here like I don't like dealing with. They're called general agents I do not like dealing with them. Um I don't know whether I can trust them I have what I have a great general agent here in Utah but I I like evaluated them over 3 3 dinners or and 3 lunches to like do I trust you and like I actually do trust our general agent here in Utah but they're only in Utah um, so we've got to like I I am it's such.
21:50.12
tylerking
And.
21:59.78
Rick
It's very painful process but got to do it.
22:01.76
tylerking
Um, and what happens if you pick the wrong one like what does this trust mean how do they impact the business.
22:04.11
Rick
So the thing that I am most was most worried about and ammost worried about in Texas is when you sign up with the general agent. You're basically saying you know be my conduit to the insurance company which means they are tied to your book of business. So if they wanted to like screw you they could basically take your book. Um, and you'd have to go through the administrative process of transferring all the agents of records to your new book by getting reappointed and so there's a big power like dynamic at play. Um and risk sort of like this. Ah this risk that you take on by doing business with them.
22:31.81
tylerking
Um, is.
22:40.80
Rick
Um, and so one of the big things. Um that I wanted in in writing when we did our ga contracting in Utah was that if if we ever had a dispute. Um they would make sure that they would they would transfer the book of business to us. Um, our direct line versus like making us go through the. The process.
22:58.86
tylerking
Got you fun stuff I Guess that sounds miserable and also that's why this business works is because ah tech entrepreneurs like me would never do that and you will.
23:09.36
Rick
Exactly um, but but but it just it. It kind of signals like at some point like if you're in all 50 states like just managing the licensing the insurance because you have to have errors and admissions insurance the training and certifications.
23:21.80
tylerking
Um, yeah.
23:25.32
Rick
The continuing education the carrier appointments. Um yes, so that's that's why it matters right? because eventually we want to? there's extra ah commission points that these general agents are taking for being the middleman.
23:29.36
tylerking
Um, I assume you become a general agent at some point if it's bit if you're big enough.
23:42.26
Rick
And so eventually leg up will be big enough where we go direct and we are the general agent for ourselves. Um, yes, yeah, that's like the upside version. The other version is that there's a we get. We get in a fight with Y Ga for some reason and they or they just decide. They want to be difficult and fire terminator contract.
23:42.90
tylerking
Um.
23:45.63
tylerking
And that's when you have to move everyone off of the other one. Okay gotcha.
23:59.90
tylerking
Um, right, It's just.
24:01.48
Rick
Which they can do at anytime? Um, but but anyway so so but like at some point this is a full time job if we want to be in office states. Um, but I think we'll be good with u time Texas for a while.
24:10.85
tylerking
Yeah, it's worth mentioning I mean you in it. So there's a more general conversation in on podcasts like this about niching down and geography is a way to niche down in certain not with like saas so much but with with health insurance. It is Utah has. The whole state of Utah has I believe 3 point 3 point 3000000 people in it Texas has 2 cities that are twice that size and then you know the total population of Texas is way way bigger. So by by expanding into Texas in a sense. Maybe it's bad because there's more It's a bigger you know, competitive landscape I would imagine but.
24:32.51
Rick
Um.
24:47.86
tylerking
The the need to go outside of Texas is is a lot lower than the need to go outside of Utah I would think does it, you get what I'm saying.
24:54.85
Rick
I agree yeah and and the fact that we don't have a team member located in any other state like the the major driving factor here is actually not Utah being a constraint on growth. It's Jd's residents um and you know local geography. Um.
24:58.86
tylerking
Yeah.
25:08.21
tylerking
Right? Yeah, right now that's true. But I'm saying like now that it's because it happens to be Texas that he lives in that means like it'll be a decade before leg up health outgrows Texas you know? Um, yeah.
25:15.72
Rick
He yes, yeah and I think it would have been a decade for Utah too. If JD was in Utah to be honest, the only reason like with these leads exist is because he's bumping into them on the way to work which which is just like kind of the point of like why we're doing this because.
25:29.70
tylerking
Um, yeah, fair enough.
25:32.89
Rick
I think that there is a ah massive local networking thing. Um, so and I and we're missing out on it in Utah frankly.
25:39.42
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, um, cool. Okay, so but Texas is basically rolling so should start getting those that that 10000 ish in air are soon.
25:50.20
Rick
We have to get appointed with the insurance companies first and it is very painful so we kind of knock down There's like you know, licensing and then there's errors and admission updates those 2 have been knocked down. Um, but it's not like a day process. It's weeks that it's taken to get that done. Um, and then we're working through the appointments now and some some insurance companies are going to be like super fast and others like it might take a month and some we can't even appoint directly. We've got to find a g a 4 yep yep! thanks.
26:07.69
tylerking
Um.
26:11.89
tylerking
Um, yeah yeah god sounds like a nightmare good luck. Can we I've got to go in 12 minutes here can I you've got something on here saying creating online identity for outreach. Can we talk about that.
26:27.21
Rick
Um, yeah, yeah, well yes, um so ah, okay so I um I don't really have time ah to be like the face of leg up health and frankly like it's not my job. Like I have a win I have a full time job and my my priority is winfall um, as ah as a a key member of the team there but like I do want to help jd grow and I would love to like I always dream about like being able to hire like outsource v as who are really really good and can can add leverage to um, the leg up help business for a. Ah, a fraction of the cost that would take to hire a full-time employee? um and in the in you know in in you know Salt Lake city um and so I was just thinking like what if I like created a fake. No not a fake a real identity for myself virtually because like this is a thing that's happening like people are creating.
27:10.86
tylerking
Are.
27:24.24
tylerking
Um.
27:24.51
Rick
Online versions of themselves that like are different and like you know and they have a name and they have a face like an Ai generated face.
27:27.98
tylerking
Yeah, this is just so people can't connect it to your identity at windfall. Basically.
27:33.89
Rick
No, it's it's more about like not what what if I do out. It's weird if I do outreach as Rick Linquist and then introduce Jd because people want to meet me and then they're like you're bait and switched me if I if I reach out as an assistant to jd I don't have that friction.
27:47.59
tylerking
Um.
27:52.26
Rick
And don't have like this ethical like bait and switch I have an issue with like reaching out to someone and saying can we schedule a meeting and then going oh the meeting's not with me. It's Jd but if I'm an assistant and that's my like persona like I am reaching out on behalf of Jd I think that that like that solves the ethical dilemma for me and then I can you know.
27:53.28
tylerking
Um, and.
27:58.74
tylerking
Um, right.
28:10.86
Rick
Just be like hey I'm virtual I don't get on the phone sorry is this unethical.
28:13.33
tylerking
Um, yeah I don't I don't think so so um, yeah, and and this persona is this person called Rick is this like a different name.
28:23.48
Rick
No, this is like a woman or ah or ah, a man that is like John or ah, ah Elizabeth um, and they have like a virtual like an Ai generated image. They have a Linkedin profile no phone number and an email address it like a belt.
28:31.72
tylerking
Um, yeah.
28:40.40
tylerking
Can I pivot to a topic on my mind at like a lessing crm because I think it's related and then we can come back to yours so on the so we have a position called cm coach we have 8 serm coaches most of them are women are present as feminine and.
28:48.45
Rick
Yep.
28:59.46
tylerking
There's all kinds of creepy people online. So it's it's a different concern than the one you have, but this has led to ah an internal discussion recently of like does everyone like they're worried like a customer could find out who they actually are and it's not that hard these days to find out where they live or some and nothing bad has happened but there's concern of like It's just a matter of time before some creepy customer becomes attracted to their crm coach and does something stupid and so we're kind of talking about like should we you know the the far extreme version of this is make up an entirely different name picture everything for somebody. But maybe the the. Middle ground is just use first names and use little like animated instead of an actual photo of the person which we use now use like a drawing so it kind of hides some of the details that type of thing. So we're toying with doing that. Um in this discussion.
29:56.96
tylerking
We've kind of had a similar conversation what you're saying of like you know is it weird to use a different name or whatever and my attitude is as long as like the goal is to form an actual personal relationship with somebody and as long as you're not misrepresenting yourself. So for example, if you're ah. A white man and you present yourself as a black woman. You've probably changed your identity to the point of like lying and being inauthentic. But if your name is Michael and you say your name is David and everything else about you is the same. You're still presenting yourself in honest enough of a way that like at least this has been our take. That ah, it seems fine. Um, what What's your take on what I just said.
30:39.50
Rick
Yeah I guess um I haven't gotten I guess that is the center of my question which is like ethics. Um, where where I go for this is like I would what I want to ideally create is an identity that we can then hire other people like if I can prove out the identity. Online I can then hire someone else to act as that identity. Um, and I never I'm I'm hiring people to supercharge this one person. Ah the like online that ah maybe there's 10 people behind that person doing all kinds of stuff but like I don't ever have to ah why? why.
31:03.18
tylerking
Um, yeah, see that feels icky to me I think well so first I should say there's some early saas company I think it was one of the early email marketing tools I forget what it was. They had like a. Their first hire was this customer service person that all their customers loved and her name was like I forget but like Emma or something and yeah and then everybody they hired from that like Emma has left the company and now they're like everyone they hire goes by Emma and the customer still think it's the same person I I've always thought this feels to me.
31:26.78
Rick
Ask him? ah.
31:32.15
Rick
Yep.
31:39.50
tylerking
It's manipulative. what I what I was saying earlier like my name's Michael but I go by David you're not manipulate. You're not trying to get the person to think something untrue about you in a way that's it's like the difference between a lie versus just being wrong like there's intent behind it. You're trying to change someone anyway to me. If you're actually trying to get the person to believe something that benefits you and isn't true rather than just a total neutral alias because of some reason that's valid. They feel different to me I also don't it doesn't strike me as an yeah, no i.
32:08.59
Rick
Okay, so you're you're basically saying you're basically saying that what I want to do is not ethical in your view.
32:18.53
tylerking
I don't think it's necessary if you hire another person like people aren't forming a relationship with this v a they're forming a relationship with j d like why does this if you hire someone? Why do they even need your name like why do all 10 people need to share the same name in this scenario.
32:35.39
Rick
Consistency across like multiple people working different hours fractionally like 1 conversation.
32:38.58
tylerking
But isn't this person just setting up a call with J D like they're not actually forming a relationship with the person.
32:44.85
Rick
I think I think the the minute that you interact with someone you're forming a relationship with someone So like I mean I It's not like the it's transaction. It's a transactional relationship correct. So you think it's different. It's not intimate at all.
32:50.23
tylerking
But it's it's transactional though. It's not like a what I'm saying is it does They're not going to remember this person's name. They're not going to think about this person again. It doesn't There's no benefit to you in.
33:07.92
Rick
Okay.
33:08.24
tylerking
In crossing that line in my opinion I would it be unethical to do it I don't know like low key like a type of unethical that I could live with but it feels a little icky. That's my take I mean you're asking about this. You must have a little bit of that doubt in you.
33:25.47
Rick
I mean it's I it's interesting like I see the other side of this. Um you know which is like I've listened a couple of years ago I think it was during covid there was a big spur like splurge of like people assuming like online identities that were vastly different um than.
33:42.51
tylerking
Ah.
33:43.36
Rick
Um, then themselves than like their core identities and like you know it allowing them to like express themselves in ways that they're not allowed to and their' like their their um core identity or like their reality reality I didn I don't know what you call it real identity. Um, and and there is like like.
34:00.74
tylerking
Um, yeah.
34:03.15
Rick
Merits to that. Um, and that is what is allowing will allow me to do in a lot of ways is like I don't want I want to be an assistant to Jd in this case I don't want my my personal brand and reality to get in the way of that. Um.
34:17.51
tylerking
So I'm fine with that part to to me where you cross. So if there is and and I'm fine with Crm coaches a lessoning serum saying I don't want to use my last name or even I want to change my first name for safety reasons. There's like a good reason behind it and it's not really manipulating any that the customer in a way that feels wrong to me. But there's a difference between that versus saying so like okay Rick you want to go by a different name and say your j d's assistant which can technically be true. All you have to do is type an email saying hey jdm your assistant now and it's true. Ah. There's a difference in my mind between that versus saying now you hire another person to actually be his assistant and they're going to share the same name as you and you're pretending 2 people are one that is pure manipulation. It's not in my opinion, a valid like I'm presenting myself authentically. But There's just a bunch of baggage that was in the way that's my opinion.
35:11.25
Rick
Yeah I think there's nuance between like what you're saying and what like what what I'm saying but I I agree generally I think I I understand I understand what you're saying and I I I agree in general. Um, cool. Thank you that was helpful.
35:25.10
tylerking
Well our old our our kind of former boss pauls pillsar did this all that he was his own secretary right? because he was always like I hate assistants I hate secretary like he was like it's easier to do it myself but he had what was her name I forget he he had like a made up email address Kathy Unshaw and so he'd be emailing with.
35:39.75
Rick
Kathy Ernshaw yeah
35:43.92
tylerking
Because he was kind of a big shot and he'd be emailing with people who think they're talking to his assistant. It's just him I always thought that was funny.
35:47.61
Rick
Yeah, yeah, but it allowed him to like save him save his like it saved himself time. Um, significant time. But but what it allows you to do is qualify people. That's not even what I'm doing in this case, It's really like um, it's really more about ah ah, being able to. To act as an assistant versus be.. It's just enabling the the function better. Um, so cool. Thank you for talking me about that. Um I don't know if I'll do it. But it's something I was thinking about I was just curious to get your take on anything else. Oh cool, cool.
36:10.48
tylerking
Um, yeah.
36:17.83
tylerking
Yeah, no I think it's a cool idea and we're we're also probably moving ahead with our some version of our alias thing as well. Um, but but but I've got to go in a couple minutes so I'll skip to just a fun story time. Um.
36:26.60
Rick
What anything on your mind that you want to talk about before we jump.
36:36.77
tylerking
I Love the events we do at less knowing serum and ah the person who plans them has been just on fire planning good ones and I just thought I'd share a little bit of what we've been doing So first of all have you ever been to a Bingo hall like.
36:44.62
Rick
Now Cool is it is this like a.
36:51.30
tylerking
We've all played Bingo like in school but have you gone to like real bingo where it's gambling one where people can lose all their money.
36:54.60
Rick
Like a community center or like one where like people can lose all their money. Never no. But I've I think I've heard I've heard about this I I think I've met people is this like big in like Asian culture.
37:07.56
tylerking
I'm not sure the one we went to was very like say like old St Louis white people. Ah bingo but ah it was ah it was.
37:13.69
Rick
Okay, ah go.
37:18.24
tylerking
Ridiculous. It was so intense we we thought we were going to go there and laugh and talk and have fun if you talked people would shush you people but we're trying to win money here. Ah that was wild. We did a thing we called the mediocre talent show where everybody it was a talent show but you weren't allowed to do anything. You're actually that good at. Ah, so people like 1 person did speedwalking ah 1 person did um like kind of slam poetry or whatever. It's called 4 of us formed a band and we played holy diver by dio if you're familiar with that old classic metal song.
37:55.39
tylerking
And then the the one that's coming up that I'm excited for is powerpoint night where everyone gets 5 minutes to present a powerpoint on any topic they want and I'm excited to do foods that are overrated starting with in and out. That's my presentation. Yeah in and outs burgers are great.
38:09.34
Rick
Um, in and outs burgers are actually way better than Jack in the box.
38:14.58
tylerking
Fries suck and if you only have two food items on the menu and one of them sucks. You can't be as good as in an ah and anyway I'm so excited to present this to the world.
38:19.30
Rick
Overrated.
38:24.94
Rick
Ah, a lot of be fun and this is these are just like culture building activities. What what is this like I'm smart.
38:27.34
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, culture building and I do think you know it's been over 2 years since anyone left the company I I think like at some point people are actually just friends and like hanging out. So. It is deliberate like we should do this as a company but I Also think there's an element of just like hey wouldn't it be fun to do this. Let's go do it So just thought I'd share that if anyone needs inspiration for company events.
38:44.83
Rick
Totally.
38:50.58
Rick
Ah, ah, that's awesome. Well um, thank you for that I get I would like to see the slides of whatever you come up with perfect now put them in the slide notes. Yeah, um, well thank you for um.
38:58.42
tylerking
Yeah, we can all run through the whole presentation on the podcast forever now. No I won't But yeah there we go all right.
39:09.24
Rick
Ah, listening and I'll see you next week Tyler
39:11.74
tylerking
Um, see you.