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Two ex-Mormon women in their 20's. Both queer. Both divorced. Both ready to share the ins-and-outs of Mormonism and what it's like to leave.
Karina Vance (00:01)
Welcome brothers and sisters and other siblings, it's me, Karina.
Sammi (00:05)
And I'm Sammi. Welcome to the Peculiar People podcast. This is an ex -Mormon podcast.
Karina Vance (00:14)
and you can find us on social media on Instagram and TikTok and Reddit and it's all under peculiar people exmo and you can also find us on Patreon at patreon .com slash peculiar people exmo and you can subscribe and get exclusive content.
Sammi (00:35)
We have some new patrons this week. Thank you so much. Yeah, we're so excited. Our first ever patron was Savannah and then Liv and Katie also joined us on Patreon. They are all now baptized and confirmed into the Peculiar People podcast. If you haven't checked out our Patreon yet,
Karina Vance (00:38)
Yay!
Sammi (01:05)
It's freaking amazing. There's lots of like exclusive content and even merch that you can get through Patreon and there's four levels and they all have to do with the covenant path. So baptism and confirmation is the first and then initiatory and endowment is the second. The temple sealing is the third and the second anointing which is the free pass to heaven is the fourth and highest tier.
We'd love your support in any way. Even just listening is great. We love you guys. Another exciting thing. Yeah, another exciting thing is the last I checked, we have had 200 listens on our podcast. Isn't that wild? We have not been out for that long and already 200 listens. So exciting.
Karina Vance (01:43)
Yes, thank you.
Sammi (02:04)
So just before we get started, I'm going to give you our sources for today. We pulled information from newsroom .churchofjesuchrist .org, laddergaystories .org, dailyutahchronicle .com, and there was one last one, Karina, which I'm realizing I didn't grab from you.
What was the one that you?
Karina Vance (02:40)
Well, it came from Latter Gay's stories, it's also on there.
Sammi (02:43)
Oh perfect awesome, awesome. Okay.
Karina Vance (02:45)
I've seen it somewhere else in the past, but it is in there
Sammi (02:49)
Okay, great, then that works. Alrighty.
Sammi (02:54)
Prior to diving in, I just want to give a trigger warning that there will be mentions of homophobia, transphobia, self -harm, and suicide. So with that, we're just going to dive in with a readin' something. Here we go.
Karina Vance (03:17)
All right, so deceitful.
Sammi (03:25)
Crime against nature.
Karina Vance (03:27)
Malady.
Sammi (03:29)
confused.
Addict
Karina Vance (03:35)
Unmanly.
helpless.
Sammi (03:45)
promiscuous.
Karina Vance (03:47)
enslaved.
carnal.
Sammi (04:02)
Hopeless.
Filthy.
Karina Vance (04:08)
dreadful.
Sammi (04:10)
Unhappy.
Karina Vance (04:12)
and
Sammi (04:15)
Those are all adjectives that have been used to describe queer people by leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, otherwise known as the Mormon Church.
That's rough.
Karina Vance (04:34)
And it's a lot to take in because they are all over the place.
Sammi (04:38)
Yeah, seriously. It is just, it just makes me want to puke thinking that there are people out there that actually think this way and actually think that there's something wrong with people when they're literally just living their own lives and doing 0 % harm to these people who think this way. It's gross. So if you haven't already guessed,
We're gonna be talking about being queer in Mormonism today. We've pulled some quotes and we're gonna talk about our own coming out stories and how it was being gay as a Mormon. And as we were pulling some quotes, something that I found funny is that gayness used to be called buggery.
So those damn buggering people. It's also referred to as sodomy in some places. But yeah, what a name.
Karina Vance (05:40)
No good buggery.
I we should bring that
Sammi (05:56)
Right? No, literally.
Karina Vance (05:58)
I'm all for pro -buggery.
Sammi (06:01)
We need to make a t -shirt. I love it. Yeah, me too. So for those of you who are not familiar with Mormonism, Joseph Smith is a big name in Mormonism because he founded the Mormon church. And something that is quite interesting is that in my research, I found that he himself was accused of same -sex relations.
Karina Vance (06:05)
work.
Sammi (06:31)
which just is against everything that the Mormon Church teaches.
Karina Vance (06:38)
It'd be hilarious if it was true
Sammi (06:41)
Right? real. Yeah, seriously, the straight hypocrisy. It's probably important to mention as well that the church leaders always refer to gayness as same sex attraction. They never actually really will like call people gay or lesbian or whatever they use.
Karina Vance (06:44)
Like that would make.
Sammi (07:12)
homosexual and just different words like that that are very invalidating.
Karina Vance (07:20)
Yeah, it's a weird phrase too. Same -sex attraction. I don't know. It just feels so odd and it also just reduces all of queer people to two same -sex attractive
Sammi (07:26)
Yeah. Sorry, go
Yes, exactly. It like is hard on the binary. Sorry, what was
Karina Vance (07:42)
It is so much longer.
But it also just gives me ick, just hearing
Sammi (07:49)
Yeah, yeah, definitely leaves no room for any other like gender identification period, which is a huge thing in Mormonism. Your gender is apparently vital to who you are. You're born gender. Yeah, and the Mormon Church also considers queerness a challenge or a trial.
something to be overcome. So that's exciting and disgusting. Yeah, so I'm just gonna jump in with some quotes and Karina has some quotes too. And then we'll go from there. So here's one. This is by Bruce R. McConkie. He was an apostle of the church back in like the mid
1900s. This quote is from 1958. It says, loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of one's life. Better dead clean than alive unclean. Many in the faithful Latter -day Saint parent who has sent a son or daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction, I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue.
then return alive without it. So, just rather you come home in a casket, my friend. Don't be gay, just come home dead if you are. What the fuck? What in the actual
Karina Vance (09:30)
This is like such a part of the harmful rhetoric that they have and what got me into a lot of terrible situations growing up because I thought that if I did not stop being queer that it would be better that I was not around.
Sammi (09:50)
Yeah, yeah, no, seriously. And that's something that so many people struggle with. Like the suicide rates are so high in Utah in comparison to other states. And it's no wonder because Utah is where like Mormonism is so prevalent. It's just absolutely horrid. So another quote by good old Bruce.
R. McKonkie from the same book, it's called Mormon Doctrine from 1958. says, we hold that sexual sin is second only to the shedding of innocent blood in the category of personal crimes and that the adulterer shall have no part in the exaltation of the blessed. So being gay is second only to murder.
Can we just take that in for a second?
Karina Vance (10:49)
Did hurts.
Sammi (10:51)
Yeah, for real. How can someone say that and like continue living life feeling like they're doing the right thing.
feeling like they
Karina Vance (11:06)
to like, to bunch people in who are just minding their own business and loving who they love. Just to group them with murderers. It's just, I don't understand. And I also don't understand how I used to hear this and be like, yeah, makes
Sammi (11:20)
Yeah
Right. Totally relatable. And for them to literally believe that they are the mouthpiece for God. So they're saying this because God told them to.
Oof. Not a fan of that
Karina Vance (11:48)
So I have a quote as well. This one is from Elder Hartman Rector Jr. He was also an apostle for the church. And then this is from 1981 given in a general conference, which is this semi -annual church meeting where all the apostles speak and they kind of give sermons and then they get broadcast across the world. So this was in a public broadcast for the church. But it says,
If children have a happy family experience, they will not want to be homosexual, which I am sure is an acquired addiction just as drugs, alcohol, and pornography are. And the first red flag is calling being gay an addiction. Because you don't just wake up one day and be like, I'm hooked on the gay. It got me. I tried it once. You know
Sammi (12:36)
Yeah, I like that.
my god. Never going
Karina Vance (12:47)
And then it's also wild that like, you're going to also blame their family and their parents. Cause for a lot of, you know, parents out there that have queer children, then they're going to think that they did something wrong because their child is gay.
Sammi (13:06)
Yeah, that's so real.
Karina Vance (13:08)
And so they're gonna put shame on everyone involved because you can't be gay, but also it's your parents' fault that you're gay. And so we're just gonna make everyone feel bad about
Sammi (13:18)
right, the shame in every way. It's just ridiculous. And why? Why is it necessary? It's not. Those are just the facts. So those were quotes from like, the 1900s. From our research, we found that they were excommunicating
gay people from the time of like 1842, which was 12 years after the church was founded. So this shit has been happening for a long time. I am not totally certain. I don't think that gay people generally get excommunicated anymore unless they are, you know, breaking the law of chastity, which is a whole other thing to talk about because
There are so many gay people in the church who end up getting married in heterosexual relationships because that is the only way that they can get married. And so then if they're getting married or having relationships that are not heterosexual, then they might, you know, be excommunicated. But anyway, what a just terrible life to live where you're
married to someone that you're potentially not attracted to at all. And having babies with them and like living life with them and having to go through all the challenges that relationships do with that added layer. Like those poor, poor people, they exist today, for sure.
Karina Vance (15:04)
Yeah, I remember when I realized that I was bisexual. And I know it sounds weird, but I remember being grateful that I was still attracted to men because of things like this, where I was like, like, even though I like women, at least I can be in like a straight passing relationship and still be happy because at the time it felt like that was the only option I could really pick
Sammi (15:16)
Mm
Karina Vance (15:33)
because like, yeah, sure, I like women, but I can't actually pursue anything with them. So I remember almost being grateful that I was bi instead of a lesbian because at least I could appease everyone by being with a man.
Sammi (15:50)
Yeah, yikes, that's really depressing.
Sorry that you experienced that. Oof. So keeping in mind all the things that you have now heard that Mormon leaders have said about same -sex attraction, as they would put it, this is a more recent quote from the church. It says, Feelings of same sex attraction are not a sin.
Let us be clear, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints believes that the experience of same -sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. First of all, I want to say thank you Church for gaslighting us.
Karina Vance (16:57)
It's okay now.
Sammi (17:00)
Yeah. Isn't it great? You can be gay. I even, my God, in part of my research today, I saw somewhere that it said, gay people can participate in all church things. And I was like, that's a lie. That's a lie. Like, okay.
Yeah.
Karina Vance (17:30)
Yeah, it's little odd to hear them change the verbiage on stuff because like they're still saying that you can't be in a gay relationship. But for them to be like, you're actually allowed to feel that way now. It's a good thing, but it's also confusing when you look at the past and it was like just existing was a crime. And now they're just like, it's OK. Not really, but like you can pretend it's OK.
Sammi (18:00)
Right, like you can be gay, but if you act on it, you're not gonna be able to take the sacrament anymore. If you act on it, you can't have a calling. If you act on it, you can't go through the temple and you definitely can't be married in a gay relationship in the temple. So be gay, we love you. But, but, but, to like literally every statement that they ever say.
about the queer community.
my god. Yeah. So with all of that behind us, we're going to talk about our experiences being queer. So Karina, when did you first experience attraction that wasn't to a man
Karina Vance (18:55)
I was really young. Obviously, when you're a kid, you're not recognizing it that way. And you're not like thinking sexually because I was only like six years old at the time. But looking back, I can totally see that like it was me liking a woman because I was like, she's beautiful. I don't know what I'm feeling, but I want to be around her all the time. And I'm just going to upset, you know, just just the infatuation.
Sammi (19:21)
So, yeah.
Karina Vance (19:24)
even if you're a kid and you don't totally get it. But my first experience was whenever I watched Lord of the Rings for the first
Sammi (19:33)
Mmm.
Karina Vance (19:34)
Those elves.
Sammi (19:36)
my gosh, yeah they're gorgeous.
Karina Vance (19:39)
I remember seeing Arwen and being like, Wow! I'm
in love and I was obsessed with her for a long long time. I mean I still am but that was definitely the first moment where you know your eyes pop open.
Sammi (19:44)
That's it.
That's awesome.
Yeah. I love it. Super, super cute.
Karina Vance (19:58)
Yeah.
What about you?
Sammi (20:07)
for me, I definitely like, I have this one very distinct memory. And I'm just going to say to my best friend, Lily, if you're listening, I've never told you this before I don't think here we are. It's all coming out. my best friend, Lily and I, were probably like 15, 16, maybe 17. And,
We had gone to see a movie together and I remember as we were like sitting down in the movie theater, I had this thought that was like, man, if I was a boy, I would totally date Lily.
And the fact that I phrased it like that in my mind is problematic in and of itself because that's how like brainwashed I was into thinking that I could only be with like someone who was female if I was a man, but
Yeah, that was definitely the first time that I remember at least that I was like, yeah. But at that time, because I phrased it that way in my head, I didn't really internalize it as me being gay. It wasn't until much later that I was like, oh that experience was definitely me being gay.
Karina Vance (21:28)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I've definitely had the being in love with your friends stories so many times.
Sammi (21:47)
Mm -hmm.
Karina Vance (21:52)
Especially like since female friends tend to be just like naturally affectionate with each other that I would get confused because like, you know, you'd see each other and you'd hug or you'd like hold hands and walk down the hall or you'd have sleepovers and just like cuddle up together. And the whole time I was like, cool, we all just love each other until I got older and then it was like, you guys aren't, We're not all...
Sammi (22:16)
Aww.
Karina Vance (22:21)
Women aren't all in love with each other?
Sammi (22:24)
man, that's rough. Goodness.
Karina Vance (22:25)
Oh! Well this is a little awkward.
Sammi (22:36)
Yikes. So when did you first learn about queer people?
Karina Vance (22:42)
I don't think I even heard the word gay until I was like 11 or 12.
because I just grew up in a bubble and it didn't like really ever come up. Also, because people always were talking about it. And so I remember asking, I think it was a cousin or someone, they said gay and I was like, what does that mean? And they were like, it's when boys like boys and girls like girls. And I was like, okay. And internally, I'm not, it's not clicking because I'm like, I like boys.
Sammi (23:00)
Yeah, for real.
Yeah. Right. Right.
Karina Vance (23:22)
And then, and then I was probably like later in my teenage years when I realized that there was more options than just gay or straight. And then there was bisexual and then there's also other kinds of sexuality or asexuality and that there were other gender presentations. And then I was like, turns out there's like a whole spectrum of loving and how you love people and how you want the world to perceive you. And then I was like, oh!
Sammi (23:44)
Right
Karina Vance (23:52)
I didn't realize I had so many like choices. So then I had to do some thinking and I was like, definitely half and half. So I guess that makes me buy.
Sammi (24:03)
There you go. Yeah, I think for me, I don't remember like a specific moment, but it had to have been. I want to say once I was probably in my like young teens, probably around the same age as you. Just with I mean, I grew up in a like a very conservative place. you know what? Actually, I do remember. Kind of.
This wouldn't have been when I first heard about it, but it was definitely like a very distinct memory. When I was in like seventh grade, people were spreading a rumor about me that I was lesbian because I had never had a boyfriend.
Karina Vance (24:49)
Makes sense.
Sammi (24:53)
Yeah. Yeah, so, had to have been before that, but that really kind of cemented it in there for me. but yeah, it's just, it's very strange, especially now as an adult, how like aware I think that children should be from the very beginning of the fact that there are, you know, you can be whoever the fuck you want to
And I did not experience that at all
Karina Vance (25:27)
I think that some, at least the Mormon people I know that are homophobic, misconstrue with like the awareness with like teaching sexual things to kids when they talk about being gay. And I'm like, no, no, that's not what we're going for. We're just letting them know. Like if they like someone, then they like them. And that's all it means at the time. And it's fine.
Sammi (25:41)
Yeah.
Right, right, literally. And I feel like they use the argument of like, you're indoctrinating our children, like as if they believe that we're telling children you are gay and just like brainwashing them into believing that they're gay because we want everybody to be gay. Like why the actual fuck? Right. But also like, can you just turn around and look at yourself? People who have these homophobic transphobic beliefs.
Are you not indoctrinating people with like your religion? And stuff like that. Like let's do a little introspection here friends.
Man, when did you finally realize you were queer?
Karina Vance (26:39)
The first time I kissed a girl I was 15 So I definitely knew then and then I didn't put like the label on it till I was probably a little older like 17 Once I figured things out and then I was like, you can be both I'm both
Sammi (26:45)
Mmm.
I love it.
Karina Vance (27:02)
I grew up thinking I had to be on one side and then I realized that you can walk and you can be in the middle. I was probably 17 when I realized that I was bisexual and then I started telling
Sammi (27:05)
Yeah.
Karina Vance (27:18)
Probably around like 19. I wasn't like out, but I had a few friends and like a sister that knew and then I publicly came out.
Let's see, how old would be then? 23. But we'll get to that later.
Sammi (27:35)
Awesome sounds great. I Don't think I really realized I was queer until Like the fall of 2022 probably So that would be when I was like 24 going on 25
Karina Vance (28:03)
It's so new!
Sammi (28:04)
I know, it is so new. It was just, I mentioned this in the last episode, but my sister and I were talking and she was talking about like her exploration and I had the memory come up of like with my friend and I was like, and then like, I would just, you know, notice things more like, like
you know, find this person attractive or this person attractive, just random, random people. And even just like watching different shows where there's queer couples and stuff like that. I was like, you know, like, I like that. Thinking about, honestly, I'm just gonna say it sex. I could do that. But
Karina Vance (28:58)
mean, yeah.
Sammi (29:03)
Yeah, so it was kind of like I started really questioning my sexuality probably like summer of 2022, fall of 2022. And as time went on, it was just like confirmation after confirmation.
Karina Vance (29:22)
Mm -hmm.
It's funny watching all those puzzle pieces like finally fit together and then you're like,
I figured it out! I should have seen it the whole time but I got it now.
Sammi (29:33)
Right, I'm gay!
But seriously.
Karina Vance (29:42)
So when did you come
Sammi (29:45)
I came out to first I came out to my ex mother -in -law. she's lovely. Love her to death. We still have a good friendship. I'm grateful for. but it was basically the way that the message was approached when I came out to her is I think I'm pansexual. I'm terrified to tell my ex husband, which was her son.
And yeah, she was very, you know, welcoming, loving. She's a great, great queer mama. But yeah, I was super terrified to tell my ex -husband because
He just had said some things about the queer community that made me uncomfortable and he had made jokes in the past about how like people he had dated before like became lesbian or whatever after they dated and how he like turned them queer or whatever and I was just like I don't know if I want to do this. Yeah.
But I did end up coming out to him. It was probably like early spring, maybe late winter of 2023. And then I came out publicly during Pride Month of 2023.
Karina Vance (31:29)
So were you guys divorced then, or?
Sammi (31:32)
We were separated at that point.
Yeah.
Karina Vance (31:39)
how did telling him go?
Sammi (31:43)
it was, I don't know. I think it was a lot for him to grapple with and that information came out pretty shortly after I had told him I was leaving the church. And so it was all a lot at once. I think,
If I remember correctly, his first question was like, is there someone else? And I was like, no, like, what? What? Why? Why would there be someone there? Yeah. goodness. God. But yeah, he just. Was like, you could tell he was uncomfortable.
Karina Vance (32:25)
It's okay, I got that too.
Sammi (32:40)
but he wasn't necessarily like terrible about anything. It was just uncomfortable.
Karina Vance (32:48)
And how was it coming out publicly?
Sammi (32:51)
Lovely. I had like so much support and just people having my back and like the validation that you need, especially coming from a background where you are completely invalidated and told that you're like my dad has called me or like said that my queerness is an abomination. So coming from that, having thank you. Yeah.
Karina Vance (33:01)
I'm out.
So sorry.
Sammi (33:22)
Coming from that background, was definitely like very validating to have people be like, we love you, we're here for you, we got your back, you're perfect just the way you are. So yeah, it went super well.
Karina Vance (33:32)
Mm -hmm.
Sammi (33:41)
So how about you? What's your coming out story?
Karina Vance (33:46)
so the first person I told, well, I didn't really state that I was bisexual, because I had internalized a lot of shame, as we have talked about, especially with all of the terrible things the church leaders have said. But I remember the first person I told, I don't even remember what came over me, but all of a sudden I was just like, I kissed a girl. And they're like, huh?
Sammi (33:57)
Yeah, sure.
my God.
Karina Vance (34:14)
And I was like, like Katy Perry, I kissed a girl and I liked it. And they were like,
Sammi (34:24)
my god, that's classic.
Karina Vance (34:27)
They were like, okay. I was like, I just, have to tell you because you're my best friend. And they were just like, okay. And then later, like I had told a few family members and they were supportive. And then when I had started dating my now ex -husband, I told him why we were dating.
Sammi (34:40)
important.
Karina Vance (34:55)
Mostly because I was like, well, if he's going to have like a huge negative reaction to this, I want to know now before. And then he like saved me the trouble. And he he was cool with it. I could tell he was like uncomfortable and then he had like some odd questions. But like he was like, OK, well, as long as you just love me. And I was like, yeah. And then and then it
Sammi (35:02)
Yeah
Karina Vance (35:25)
was okay. He asked me though if I was gonna cheat on him and date other girls, which I thought was a really weird question to ask. But people often have that misconception that if you're bisexual and you like men and women, then you must want both at the same time, which is not how being gay works.
Sammi (35:48)
Mm -hmm.
Karina Vance (35:54)
some people maybe, but like it's not the same thing. And so I could tell he was not a fan, but he was okay with it. And then in our marriage, he didn't care as long as I wasn't being too gay.
Sammi (36:12)
Oh boy Yikes.
Karina Vance (36:14)
So we did not do Pride. He hated drag queens. Well, he didn't hate them. He just was not a fan because I'd want to go to shows. And he was like, I don't want to go to that. I want to have fun. He was like, you can if you want. So I was just like, OK, well, Imma go.
Sammi (36:23)
Yeah.
geez.
Yeah, do it
Karina Vance (36:35)
and then whenever I came out publicly, which was in 2021, I think, it went really well. I had some people that were just like, duh, we know. Which is funny. and then other people were really supportive. And I even had a few people that were like, I don't know if I ever did or said anything that was harmful because I didn't know, but if I did, I apologize. And luckily, you
Sammi (36:49)
So
Karina Vance (37:05)
The people willing to apologize were not the people making my life harder, but I appreciated them
Sammi (37:10)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Wow
Karina Vance (37:14)
So overall it went well. then, well I guess right before I came out publicly is when I told my parents and I got cornered into that. So that was not a fun conversation. That was like the only one that was just not that great.
Sammi (37:28)
Oh boy
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of... sorry, go ahead.
Karina Vance (37:35)
They were
They were kind of like they wanted an answer why I had left the church and I was trying not to dig too deep into it because I didn't want to get into an argument over doctrine and me not thinking it's true. But my dad was like, you left because of this, you left because of that. And then I was finally like, you know what? Stop. I was like, some of this stuff you're saying doesn't make sense. I never said that. And then also, by the way.
Sammi (37:52)
Yeah.
Karina Vance (38:06)
I'm bisexual, so that's why all of this stuff rubs me the wrong way so bad because they're talking about me. And then they were like, Oh! I guess they didn't see that one coming.
Sammi (38:15)
Yeah
Damn. Yeah, that's another thing for me. I didn't come out to my parents because I knew that I was going to receive a lot of hateful speech by doing so. And so after I had come out publicly, this would have been just last summer, actually. I went on this little trip with my mom.
for a couple of days and we were talking about me leaving the church and me being queer and my divorce. All hot topics at the time and very touchy considering who I was speaking with. And she basically like,
came out to her but she was like, yeah I already knew that because I saw it on your social media and I was like, okay. asked her if she knew what it meant to be pansexual and apparently she like researched it, googled it. and she basically gave me the, we'll always love you, but we'll never condone your choices and I was
Cool, cool, cool, cool, So yeah, that would be the pretty much the worst of it for me other than, you know, my dad telling me that my queerness is an abomination. That was pretty rough. But yeah, for anyone who doesn't already know, I don't have relationships with my parents at all currently. Just not a viable situation.
It's very peaceful for me at this point in my life hard for sure, but worth it for my mental health. Definitely.
Karina Vance (40:30)
I guess to bounce off what your mom said about looking up what being pansexual was, what do you think is the biggest like misconception about your sexuality?
Sammi (40:43)
I think that people believe that I'm attracted to literally every single person I ever lay eyes on, which is not true. Yeah, because I mean, pansexuality, if you're not familiar, means that you are attracted to people regardless of their sex.
Basically, some people will say like, not parts. And yeah, so just, I can be attracted to anyone, but I am not attracted to everyone. What do you think is, sorry, go ahead.
Karina Vance (41:32)
for sure.
I think as a bisexual person, it's really similar, just because to me, like, a trans man or a trans woman are still a man or a woman to me. And so I still lump them as in I'm attracted to men and women. And so I don't, if I like them and we have a connection, then I don't care.
what happens after because I will enjoy it.
Sammi (42:05)
Yeah. Yes. Love that.
Karina Vance (42:09)
And I had thought maybe that means I'm pansexual. don't... I guess it's whatever you decide to call it, but... I just... I like hot people.
Sammi (42:19)
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Same.
Karina Vance (42:26)
I think other misconceptions that come along with being attractive to multiple types of people is thinking, like you said, you want everyone. I've also heard that like, it means you just really like having sex and that's your excuse to like be promiscuous and run around with everyone or
Sammi (42:51)
Yes.
Karina Vance (42:52)
you're confused or you can't make up your mind or you're just a closeted gay person or I feel like there's a bunch of other just little things where I'm like, you don't, you're not getting me.
Sammi (43:07)
Yeah, for real, for real. Yeah, I think that a lot of people who don't get us queer folk literally just believe that we must be the biggest whores on the planet. I'll take it.
Karina Vance (43:28)
some of us are, but some straight people are. It's just how much sex you have or how many partners you have. Everything about that is just totally separate. It's all individual.
Sammi (43:33)
Right.
Right. Yeah, exactly. how has your life changed since you came out?
Karina Vance (44:01)
I wouldn't say it has helped me with dating women because women still terrify me.
Sammi (44:05)
Same.
Karina Vance (44:08)
I'm out, people know, but that doesn't mean that I want to approach women because they're beautiful and cute and I don't feel worthy to be in their presence. But!
It has been really validating to find other people and finding like a little queer community. Cause even if I'm in the South and Kentucky, like we're still here and we're still queer. And so it's been fun to find other people who are like me and being able to like go to events and just be myself freely without feeling like I have to brush over it or avoid talking about it.
Sammi (44:35)
Oh yeah
Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. I think the biggest thing for me is that a lot of relationships in my life, especially like with my parents, have really changed a lot. And there's a lot more behind that, but it's definitely a factor. And yeah, otherwise, like you said, finding your tribe, your people, I don't know if I should use the word tribe.
Is that cultural appropriation? I don't know. I'm gonna look that up after this, but, yeah, it's really cool. I'm so grateful that I live in Maine now because, I mean, I grew up in Michigan and then I moved all over the place, but I spent like a good amount of time in Utah and Idaho, which are very Mormon and very like anti -queer.
There's definitely queer people there, but it's just a whole different vibe, a whole different culture. And,
Moving to Maine, like, it's so accepting. There are pride flags everywhere. And there's like certain towns especially you go to and you're just like, everybody's gay here pretty much.
Karina Vance (46:15)
I wanna move there!
Sammi (46:17)
Yeah, it's it's really great and like I feel like it's the first time that I've really noticed like two men walking down the street holding hands or like just people just being flamboyant as fuck and no one batting an eye like I love it so much and so I think that's a really positive thing that has come out
Karina Vance (46:17)
.. ..
Sammi (46:45)
One, me moving to Maine, but also me being out now is like being able to find my people and feel comfortable in my own skin and just having people to look up to, for sure.
Karina Vance (47:00)
That's definitely been like my favorite thing. It's just, yeah, finding people like you and also getting to appreciate people like you and also appreciating people not like me because I don't need to judge them for being different. I just get to embrace, you know, all the wonderful differences and just let them
Sammi (47:22)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So speaking of people to look up to, do you have any queer role models?
Karina Vance (47:31)
I am a huge drag fan and I absolutely love RuPaul. I have read almost all of his books. There's just so much that he has done for the community beyond just like, you know, doing drag. There's a lot of activism and a lot of change that he's brought. So he's, he's a big celebrity for me. And then for personal people,
Sammi (47:34)
Yes!
...
Karina Vance (48:00)
Probably a friend I had in high school. She was openly bisexual before I like fully had realized it. And she was just like so unafraid to be herself and to just let it shine. And so I've always kind of looked up to her and just that confidence and freedom just to be her.
Sammi (48:28)
Yeah, definitely. Our patron, Liv, is the person who comes to mind most for me in answering this question. Liv and I were really close through middle school and then probably like our freshman year, maybe sophomore year of high school, we kind of drifted apart. But Liv just lives life.
like so authentically and I am always yes and I am always just so impressed and
Karina Vance (48:59)
Liv live
Sammi (49:10)
It's just it's just amazing to see people living in a way that they don't give a fuck About what people think or at least it appears that they don't give a fuck they exude confidence that is just Insane and incredible and I want to be I'm gonna be that kind of person So thank you Liv
Karina Vance (49:27)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, that positive energy is definitely contagious. And it's good to be around people like that that make you want to be you, just as fiercely.
Sammi (49:41)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So in wrapping up, we just wanted to touch on the fact that it's pretty apparent that suicide is a really big thing when it comes to the queer community. And as we mentioned before in Utah,
Karina Vance (49:42)
I love that
Sammi (50:11)
the leading cause of death for young people between the ages of 14 and 21 is suicide. There was a policy that the church put out in 2015 that they have since taken away partially that basically made it so that children of queer parents couldn't be baptized and that if they wanted to be baptized when they turned 18 that they had to like
totally basically say that they didn't agree with what their parents are doing. Being queer. And when that happened, the lives of young people in Utah, there was definitely like an increase in how many people committed suicide. And that's devastating.
really really heavy and we just want you to know that we're here for you and if you're experiencing any self -harm habits or having suicidal ideation that we'll always be here for you but there are also resources such as the suicide hotline which they made it super simple recently where you can just dial 988
or text 988 to talk to someone right away. And there's also the Trevor Project, which is suicide prevention specifically for queer youth. So please, please, if you're struggling with any of those things, please reach out, find someone to talk to because you're not alone in your experience, but also we want you here. We need you here and we love
Karina Vance (52:04)
Yeah. We do love you all. I know that you were made perfectly and wonderfully. You are not a mistake. You're not an accident. You don't need to change who you are to earn love. So big love to all my queer people out there.
Sammi (52:23)
Yeah, definitely. Sending all the healing vibes. It's not an easy world to be living in. We also just wanted to remind you that we are on social media. So go follow us and subscribe and check out our Patreon at patreon .com slash, my God. I almost said a different.
a different podcast, it's a tag, patreon .com slash peculiar people exmo. And yeah, we're just, we're so excited about the community that we're building and we're so hopeful to be of help to people regardless of where they are on their journey. So thanks for supporting us
Karina Vance (52:54)
Hahaha
Thanks guys, we'll see you next week.
Sammi (53:19)
See ya, bye!
Karina Vance (53:21)
Bye