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In a world that feels increasingly chaotic, uncertain, and hard to make sense of, Realms of Curiosity with Sarah and Wendy offers a different kind of conversation.
Drawing from shamanic practice, psychology, and decades of firsthand experience with non-ordinary reality, Sarah and Wendy explore the deeper forces shaping our inner and outer worlds—from intuition and consciousness to deception, transformation, and the shifting nature of truth itself.
They don’t claim to have answers. Instead, they follow curiosity into the unknown—questioning, exploring, and inviting you to do the same.
Because in times like these, curiosity might be one of the most powerful tools we have.
Welcome to Realms of Curiosity. Listen in as two friends explore the mysteries of the Universe through the lens of their otherworldly experiences.
Sarah:Hi, Wendy.
Wendy:Hello, Sarah.
Sarah:How are doing?
Wendy:I am hanging in there. And yourself?
Sarah:Same. Yeah? Hanging in.
Wendy:You are looking so dapper today.
Sarah:Dapper.
Wendy:Yes. Sharp.
Sarah:My it's my ancient jacket.
Wendy:Love that jacket. Just want to say it for the record.
Sarah:Thank you. Thank you.
Sarah:What are we talking about today?
Wendy:The thing that was coming into my head that might be a well, maybe not maybe fun's the wrong word is interesting. Uh-huh. Interesting topic would be dismemberment. So shamanic death and rebirth. So dismemberment and rememberment.
Wendy:Yeah. And because that seems to be par for the course when you step into this shamanic tradition, like, you start practicing.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:At least that's what I was taught, and that definitely was my experience before I even knew that that's what I would call it.
Sarah:Yeah. You know, it's interesting. When when I think about the various types of there's, like, psychologically, what does that mean? Philosophically, what does that mean? Existentially, what does that mean?
Sarah:There's so many ways to look at it. It's, like, such a vast topic. And, typically, we think of the shamanic as as the the the way of it. But when I look at my life, there were my life was very traumatic in in my childhood. And as I matured with this very weighty childhood, what I consider my first dismembermentrememberment came long before I started studying shamanism, in fact.
Sarah:Okay. Before I even would have put those words on it. But it took the form of a kind of breakdown when I was 19, like crashing. All this stuff was just crashing around me. And I started working with a therapist and trying to put So I became very broken in many ways in this, what would be called a breakdown.
Sarah:And then this therapist who I'd started working with, after some time, he suggested to me that there was gonna be too much work to do to put this all back together again. He suggested that I change my name and that I let go of that person who I was christened as, which was Susan.
Wendy:No shit. Okay.
Sarah:Yeah. Leave that behind. Have a new name and have a new create a new persona. Create a new person to go forward. And one could argue that this was a very strange thing to to do.
Sarah:You could look at it from a number of directions.
Wendy:Well, especially in the context of a psychotherapeutic Yeah. Setting. It's because he wasn't doing this from a a traditionally shamanic perspective. He was just looking at what you were going through and saying, you know what would be good for you? Yeah.
Wendy:A new identity. New identity. Protection.
Sarah:Way too fucked up. Just forget about it and and, you know
Wendy:Do over. Yeah. Over.
Sarah:And the crazy thing is it totally worked. Broken aspects kinda got left behind. I went back to school, got degrees, did, like, my life, got married. Like, my whole life as I became Sarah was way better. And I do think of that not as a shamanic dismemberment remember, but but certainly psychologically, there there was that.
Sarah:What do you think?
Wendy:Think it's interesting how you're differentiating them. I don't know if there is really a differentiation between all of that.
Sarah:Oh, no. Right.
Wendy:Because I think on all those levels and we could talk about that more a little bit later after we kinda dive into some more experiential stuff, but
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Just how we feel like it's impacted all us, these experiences. But Yeah. I I I think we all go through our own versions of these experiences, and maybe it would be helpful to talk about what we mean by dismemberment. What does that actually mean?
Sarah:Yeah. Go ahead.
Wendy:My take, if for what it's worth, is kind of like the idea of yourself, who you think you are. Some catalyst happens and it breaks that identity, that concept of yourself down.
Wendy:And then you rebuild yourself, hopefully, in a more pure, more authentic version of you. So it's kinda like peeling away the bullshit Exactly. The things that don't serve you well about your sense of self
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:So that you can become a more real or authentic or whatever version of yourself. Authentic gets overused a lot, but it's a good word.
Sarah:Yeah. It is. Yeah. Exactly.
Wendy:I think that happens on all these different levels.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:And you may not be aware of the the ripple effects of it all. But Right. But
Sarah:the classic shamanic dismemberment, rememberment I mean, the way I was taught, anyway, was that it was going to happen in a journey state and that perhaps you would be approached by one of your animal spirit guides who might eat you or tear you apart, or there would be some, like you said
Wendy:Ripping apart. Like, symbolically. Yeah. This sort of symbolically shredding of your sense of self.
Sarah:My first one that I had after this instruction, the foundation work, was in my journey. It was a lower world journey. And giant ravens came and tore my flesh off. Tore Nice. Off.
Sarah:And I became this kind of, like, skeleton in in the journey. And then even that was taken, and the and the ravens took it and threw it on the rocks sort of, like, to shatter that
Wendy:Like, pulverize the bones?
Sarah:Yeah. And then a bear came and kind of licked and ate up all the all what was left and then pooped me out into a remembered Sarah, like a new person. And so this is many, many years after what I described.
Wendy:When you were 19? Yeah.
Sarah:When I was 19. This is many years later, probably my late thirties or 40, around there somewhere.
Wendy:And you were actively practicing? Yeah. It okay. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. I had been practicing for for a while shamanic work. And so that was, like, the first official. But now that I look back on it all, like, it was such an active thing of ego death and rebirth and ego death, but that was the first, like, official looking shamanic dismemberment.
Sarah:How about you? What's your experience with it?
Wendy:Well, my big one, which I didn't realize that's what was happening because I didn't have context. Mhmm. I think in our first conversation we had that we recorded, we talked about our first experiences, what kind of propelled us into the shamanic world. I talked about my visionary experiences. Yeah.
Wendy:And
Sarah:The lawnmower.
Wendy:Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and the woman being executed. I was in this waking dream state and going through this weird death experience through this woman I didn't know.
Wendy:And after that happened, I had tucked that experience away, so it was just a separate thing. And then I had some subsequent experiences. I think I talked about I just kind of somehow stumbled upon this center that did shamanic work, and I worked with the shaman's apprentice and had some sessions with her and had several more visionary experiences that were very intense and death related. And so that this process was unfolding. But again, I was just putting these experiences to the side, just looking at them with a curious eye.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Because as a mental health clinician, I mean, I was keeping that all very much under wraps. And and then not long after those because so this is over maybe a period of six months or so that I I had that first one, then I had the the subsequent visions with the apprentice. And meanwhile, I'm also having these choking dreams. And I've been having choking dreams since I was a child. I would always wake up feeling like there's something lodged in my throat, and I didn't know if it was real or not.
Wendy:I mean, it felt real every time, and I would have to talk myself out of it each time. And those were getting a little bit more intense too. And and all of those visions I was having with the apprentice were related to deaths that had to do with choking.
Sarah:Oh, interesting.
Wendy:And after those visions, the choking dreams stopped.
Sarah:Do you think sorry. Hold on. No. Go ahead. Do you think that had to do with perhaps some other timeline situations?
Wendy:Oh, yeah. They were all past life experiences. The first vision, I had no idea who that woman was. She didn't feel familiar. It was like I was just a Yeah.
Wendy:Hitchhiker Yeah. Vicariously watching, going through this experience with her. The next ones felt very familiar and and like they were me, versions of me.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:They were crazy trippy and also fascinating.
Sarah:Were you this, Wendy, or you were other types
Wendy:of I I a really scrawny, unsavory Egyptian man in one of them, and I was a young slave girl in the South in another. And cats were the theme in of those two.
Sarah:What do you mean?
Wendy:That that the death was related to cats. It it has nothing to do with the dismemberment, but that's, like, another story. But but, yeah, I killed a cat in the Egyptian life. And then in the other life with as a slave girl, the cat caused my death. That's karma.
Wendy:Well, that was kind of my understanding. I got to experience both sides of that Yeah. Like taking someone's life or a creature's life and then having that creature take my life. Having both sides of that experience, that's my understanding of it anyway. Be
Sarah:careful who you kill.
Wendy:Getting back to the whole ego death concept, when I left that first marriage back in it was probably '97, I felt like life's starting over. I was really excited, and I was I was broke as hell. I was eating rice every day, practicing martial arts. That was the only thing I I I had a little bit of money that I would put towards my martial arts classes. And one of my fellow martial arts colleagues, I picked him up for class one day, and there was a, like, vintage Mustang for sale in front of his apartment.
Wendy:And my eye just went to it because I had been wanting a vintage Mustang since I was a kid.
Sarah:What color?
Wendy:It well, this one was pale yellow with a black vinyl top. It was a 1967, and I I figured out a way to buy it. My mom had one, the first year they came out, sixty four and a half, my mom had one.
Sarah:Oh. And it
Wendy:it made quite an impression on me.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And hers was tricked out. Like, she had the back end lifted. What? Like, she had chrome rims on it. She had the hood scoop on the front.
Wendy:The exhaust was loud. Wow. Yeah. She would drop me off at brownies and peel out!
Sarah:Oh, you've talked about your mom a lot before, and that's not an image of mom.
Wendy:No. She was no. It made such an impression on me. She was like the epitome of cool. Right?
Wendy:Yeah. She'd park it in the garage, and I used to go and sit in it when I was really little and just sit in it and pretend it was mine. And, like, I couldn't even see over the dashboard and just smell the gas and, you know, the the the feel of the leather seats. And Yeah. I just remember how the hood would lift when you would accelerate, and it would just, like, rise up a little bit.
Wendy:Crazy. Yes. Crazy. So it just it left this indelible impression on me. And so I saw this Mustang, and I'm like, I'm free.
Wendy:I don't have anybody questioning my purchases right now. So I got a personal loan for $3,000, and I bought this Mustang. It was in Phoenix, which is where I was living at the time, and it was a desert car. So it was in good shape as far as no rust. And it needed work.
Wendy:So I got that car, and I I put chrome rims on it. I put low profile tires on it, which really didn't fit, so it looked really fucking sharp. And I had it painted the same color as my mom's. A really bad quality paint job, but I loved it. It was burgundy.
Wendy:And, of course, with the black vinyl top. And I put some big speakers in it. It's
Sarah:So wild.
Wendy:And that car made me so happy. I loved, loved that car.
Sarah:Was it like getting a piece of mom back?
Wendy:Well, it was like getting her coolness. Yeah. Like, I was borrowing it from her or something. And, yeah, my whole identity became wrapped up in that car. I never used to wash my cars.
Wendy:But I washed that car every week. And it was my pride and joy. I loved going places just so I could drive it. On breaks from work, I would go and look out the window at it and smile.
Sarah:Do you feel that this was your remembrance?
Wendy:No. I didn't get there yet. Oh, I'm joking. I've decided to just change everything up. I didn't care for living in Phoenix, and I had gone out to Denver for a martial arts festival and and really liked it.
Wendy:I I found that I was missing the green and and decided to move there. So I I trailered my Mustang on the back of a U Haul and and moved out to to Denver with I think I had, like, $400, and I was gonna rent a room from a woman I didn't know, and I had no job. So I went out there and but I had my car. And I got a really cool job, and I really liked the girl I lived with. Anyway, I had met my my favorite husband, John, in the process through martial arts.
Wendy:He decided to move out to Denver with me, And then we we got a place together pretty quickly, and he would travel back and forth from the East Coast. He'd go to the East Coast in the summertime to work at a restaurant that he'd been working at since he was a kid, and then he would do restaurant work in Denver in the winter. And when he left to go back to Jersey, there was this one day I was alone in our little house, and I got up to get ready to go to to to work, and I had taken a shower. I had my robe on and my hair and a towel, and this very distinct voice I heard in my head said, "check your car." So I went out into the backyard, and then there was a a fence.
Wendy:And then behind the fence was an alley, and I could park my car back there. And I opened the the fence door, and my car was gone.
Sarah:Oh.
Wendy:And I was like, what happened? There was a person across the alleyway in their garage, and I said, did you see my car here? Did you see anybody take it? And they were like, I have no idea. I didn't see anything happen.
Wendy:So my car was stolen.
Sarah:Right.
Wendy:And that car was my identity. Right?
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:I was that car.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:That symbolically, and it was stolen. Yeah. And then from that moment on, my life started to unravel.
Sarah:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:I see. Alright. So they never recovered it. It was such a sad day. That was that was a really sad day.
Wendy:So at this point, I'm more interested in spirituality, but now I'm a newbie in the spiritual world, And I got this sort of magical thinking going on where I'm thinking, maybe I can get a better Mustang. In fact, I would like a conversion vintage Mustang, meaning that I want the vintage body with a newer motor and newer transmission. I want a more reliable one that looks cool. So I made my claim through my insurance company, and I even got reimbursed for all the repairs I had made on my Mustang. So I got a check for $6,200, which is amazing.
Wendy:And guess what I found? I found a Mustang in Denver that was a '66 with a nineteen ninety two three zero two motor in it and a nineteen ninety two five speed transmission and bucket seats that somebody put in there, and it would cost $6,200. And I thought, universe is on my side. Right? So I'm working at the Colorado Institute of Art as the school's counselor.
Wendy:Really cool job. And I had a a really nice boss. And I told my boss about this car, and he said, who's selling that car? And I told him the guy's name. And he said, Wendy, I know that guy.
Wendy:Don't buy that car from that guy. He's not honest. And I had gone out to check out the car, and I had already decided I'm getting that car because how could it not be mine? All the things were lining up perfectly. The odds of finding a vintage conversion Mustang were, like, what?
Wendy:Especially back in 1998 at that point or '99. And I go out and I meet this guy, and I'm excited to drive it, and he he wouldn't let me drive it. But he drove it. And I'm like, okay. That's fine.
Wendy:And I also broke my number two rule, which was number one was to drive it. Number two was to have my mechanic check it out first. But I was like, nope. I trust the universe. The universe is on my side.
Sarah:Oh, boy.
Wendy:I said, I'll take it. And he dropped it off where I was living at the time. And I gave him my $6,200, and he left with a big ass smile on his face. And then I drove it to work the next day and showed everybody my new car. And then the next morning, I went out to drive my new car to work again, and there was a big puddle of coolant under the front end.
Sarah:Oh, no.
Wendy:And I had it towed to my mechanic. He lifted the hood, and he just said, oh, Wendy.
Sarah:Oh, no.
Wendy:He said, who did this conversion?
Sarah:Oh, no.
Wendy:And he said, this radiator doesn't belong in there. It doesn't fit. And then he looked in the cab of the car, and he said, is that the fuel line running between the passenger seat and the driver's seat? I can't let any of my guys drive this car. It could blow up.
Sarah:Oh my god.
Wendy:So the guy who did the conversion, the guy I bought it from, had no idea what he was doing. So it was dangerous. And he said, you can't drive this car. It's gonna cost thousands and thousands of dollars to get it where you need it to be. With tears streaming, I took it to a conversion shop and begged them to please buy it from me.
Wendy:And I think the guy took pity on me and gave me, like, either 2 or $3 for it.
Sarah:Oh my god.
Wendy:Yeah. So it just kept unraveling. And then John and I decided we're gonna move to Santa Barbara. We get out there and find this really expensive one bedroom apartment. He got a great job, and he was a happy camper, surfing all the time.
Wendy:The weather was amazing. I could not find a job. I could not get a counselor job. I couldn't get licensed out there even though I got my degree in California. A couple years before, I couldn't get my license out there because they wanted me to take more coursework, and nothing was going my way is my point.
Wendy:So I ended up
Sarah:Oh, slow.
Wendy:Working at a embroidery shop in the mall Wow. Part time, and then I ended up get getting a temp secretarial administrative gig. My dad let me borrow his Mustang.
Sarah:So Another Mustang.
Wendy:Temporarily. Yeah. And nobody had driven it for a while, so that one needed work too. I didn't have any money to repair it, so I was struggling. Nothing nothing was working.
Wendy:The only thing that was going well was my relationship with John. I was trying like hell to not let him see how much I was struggling. But meanwhile, I'm also having all of these crazy spiritual experiences and not knowing what to do with them. I don't understand them. Some of them are just freaking amazing, and others are really disturbing.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:It had rained for a month straight in January 2000. There was a park by where we lived, and I would just sit on a rock, and I would stare at the water and feel sorry for myself for hours as I'm being rained on. So it was highly symbolic. Yeah. And then I couldn't survive there.
Wendy:I just couldn't make it. And meanwhile, John is having the time of his life, and his dad's health started to suffer. And so we decided to move back east so we could spend time with his dad. And we decided to get married. And when we moved back there, which was to New Jersey Shore, which is where John grew up, that's when things started to pick back up again.
Wendy:Oh. And that's when I dreamed of Hank before I met him. Oh. And then I started training with him. Yeah.
Wendy:And I did that one foundation for shamanic studies weekend with Nan and David. So that was all in a very short condensed period of time of probably ten months that all of that happened.
Sarah:So do you feel that all of that was everything was being kind of taken away from you and that was the act of dismemberment before
Wendy:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The person I thought I was, it it wasn't like the part of me that was so afraid of looking at those visionary experiences because I was afraid of being judged and all that had to go away. This idea of needing to be cool.
Wendy:Yeah. I needed to strip that away, like my mom to try to live out my idea of what I thought was cool because of who she was. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many layers to that.
Wendy:What I'm supposed to be doing, where I'm supposed to be focusing my energy. Yeah. That all kind of pivoted into that direction, but I did not understand that that's what was happening.
Sarah:You never do.
Wendy:No. There were so many other things that were happening during that that I won't
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Bore you with. It's already been a long story, but it was getting down to the last shred of hope. That's all I had. It sounds so dramatic, but that's exactly how I felt because I I did not understand. What did I do?
Wendy:Why is nothing working for me? I mean, I can't even get a job. Yeah. I'm I'm embroidering people's initials on baseball hats. Okay.
Sarah:That's inspiring. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? That that feeling that you have when when it's all being taken away from you in or that you can't get traction in who you think you're supposed to be. Exactly.
Sarah:It's like, you know, when my marriage was ending, my marriage started to end coincidentally around the same time that I started studying shamanism. And Or not. Well, yeah. I mean, officially end. Yeah.
Sarah:I mean, there were issues, but it had remained somehow. But that feeling I remember the feeling I had was that I can't I can't be me in the context of this relationship. Like, it was just like I I couldn't put the new self together until I got out of that old self. And
Wendy:Makes perfect sense.
Sarah:Yeah. It makes perfect sense. And I my husband at the time kept saying, well, why can't you do you and stay married? And I couldn't do it. It was like it was like, this needs to be fully happening for me, and I can't do this.
Sarah:I can't be born into this while I'm still doing this. It was the strongest feeling. And when I like you, when you left your first marriage, when I when I left that relationship, it it it just all it was like, phoom. Now I'm like you when you got the car. Mhmm.
Sarah:Now now I can now I can grow this now I can be remembered, you know, because I had to I had to leave that. And I and I look back at it, and it was like, yeah. Of course.
Wendy:Of course. Yeah. But when you're going through it, it's Yeah. Not Right. But I think that's a great point that leaving a relationship that's not serving you Yeah.
Wendy:Or that can't serve who you need to be Yeah. That maybe holds or sees you in the old identity
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:That that would be a pull that would keep kind of pulling you back to the old when you're trying to move into the new. Exactly. Because, yeah, that's similar for both of us.
Sarah:Yeah. Exactly.
Wendy:Not that everyone has to go through the breakup of a relationship if they
Sarah:Well, many people do. It's, like, pretty common thing for people to go through, and I think that feeling is quite common for people. Like, that they're that they're buried under something, and it has to be cast off.
Wendy:You know? You're talking about in general or when they're called to study shamanism?
Sarah:Yeah. I don't know. I think in general, but but certainly when I mean, in my three year program, there were 48 people. And one thing we used to joke about was that studying shamanism in a serious way is not good for marriages.
Wendy:A lot of people. So they have divorce attorney business cards on the table?
Sarah:Exactly. Exactly. I think that's true. You know, in general, there were a lot of ends of marriages during those three years.
Wendy:Yeah. So interesting. If somebody had told you while it was happening that you are right on schedule, that this is happening for a reason, that you're okay, it's not fun, it's hard, But it's kind of necessary for you to make the next step.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Do you think that would have made a difference for you?
Sarah:Yes. But you know how it is when you're in the throes of it. Like, for me too, it always starts with this kind of restlessness that I get. Like, I'm in one now. I'm in this bit of casting off something, and I'm not sure what's going to be coming on.
Sarah:It's not as dramatic as then. But I have that restlessness, and I think, you know, I'm not quite comfortable in something now. And I think, well, is it that I should be moving? Is it that I want, you know, this or that? Or how do I wanna change my career?
Sarah:Or but for me, I recognize the feelings now. I trust them more. I think, okay. This is happening now. It's it's a it's a dismemberment of sorts.
Sarah:Not not as dramatic as when I was 19 or 30 or 35 because I'm old now. But, yeah, I can I can recognize the patterns, and I can give myself a little grace that, yeah, I'm going through this thing now? You know? And I'll I'll get to the other side of the bridge. I trust it now.
Wendy:Yeah. And that's the benefit of experience. Right? If you've had the direct experience of it. And then Yeah.
Wendy:But also understand, oh, that was necessary, but it has to be in hindsight is what you're describing. Yeah. Like, you can't necessarily understand it while you're in it.
Sarah:But you have to trust it. And I think we don't when we're young, we don't necessarily trust it as much.
Wendy:Makes me wonder if it's just if it's a cultural thing too. If if it was just something that, like, a rite of passage of sort, like, we looked at it that way, if it would be more like, oh, okay. I heard about this. So now I guess it's my turn.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And I think the first one is particularly challenging because it can be so disruptive and unsettling.
Sarah:And there's so much material to disengage from. You know? Yeah. You know, typically, when we're, like, in our late teens, early twenties, like
Wendy:Yeah. Yours was really young too. You were young.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I didn't feel young.
Wendy:19? Yeah. But, I mean, life experience wise, that's Yeah. It's pretty young.
Sarah:Yeah. It's pretty young. Did you have any classic dismemberments where you were in a journey state, where you were taken apart by an animal? Or did you ever have those experiences?
Wendy:Sure did. Yeah? Yeah. That was part of the training. Yeah.
Wendy:We had to invite it. We had to go on a journey to ask to be dismembered.
Sarah:Yes. Exactly.
Wendy:I remember mine distinctly because I remember laughing in the middle of it because I went and requested to be dismembered. And it was a little I don't know about this. I was a little trepidatious at first. And all these rats came. Oh, rats.
Wendy:I'm laying on the earth, and all these rats just taking small bites from me. And I'm like, Jesus, this is gonna take forever.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:And I'm like, hey. Can we can we not make this such a long process? And then all these wolves came and and finished me up. And then I think there were gnomes that came and rebuilt my body. I kept my skeleton.
Wendy:They just took everything else and then and then just created a new body. And then after I I started studying shamanism, I would journey every year on my birthday. And every year on my birthday, I would get dismembered Oh, interesting. For ten plus years. Oh, that's amazing.
Wendy:It doesn't happen so much anymore, but, I mean, I still have my dismemberment experiences, but I don't know if they need to be as deliberate. Yeah. What do you see the purpose of it is especially from the shamanic tradition? What's your take on why that's important to do that as a practitioner? Mhmm.
Sarah:As a practitioner, what's important? I don't know. Like, cleaning up, you know, cleaning cleaning up the the landscape of yourself. I I don't know. Why is it important?
Sarah:It's
Wendy:I think there's a really distinct reason, especially if you're gonna be of service in this way. Because if you're gonna be cleaning other people's houses, like, traipsing around in other people's houses
Sarah:The mud.
Wendy:Yeah. Then you should damn well have your house pretty clean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:So so it's like in psychology, we'd call it transference, counter transference. Right? You don't want your shit getting in the way of somebody else's shit. And that idea of, I think, fool's crow talked about hollow bone.
Sarah:Oh, yeah. The hollow bone.
Wendy:Yeah. So if you are a hollow bone, meaning you you're pretty clear
Sarah:Clean. Yeah.
Wendy:Clean, then you can be a better channel for the purpose of being of service to connect with your helping spirits.
Sarah:And For me, when I'm when I I mean, I keep I keep clean by I mean, psychologically and spiritually clean by when I'm working with people. People always ask me this, like, oh, don't you take all that difficult information into your your day? And I'm like, no. I I sort of see myself as this hollow bone and that my crown chakra is open and that I because a lot of what I feel when I'm working is I'm very empathic. So if somebody's very if somebody stops breathing, I stop breathing.
Sarah:Just to show me what's going on with them or to So, like, clairsentience. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I'll get, like, a feeling in my stomach or wherever the thing is that's happening, or I'll understand what's going on.
Sarah:But I don't hang on to it. It's like it comes and Just information. Yeah. Information, and it shows me, and I'm not attached to it at all. And then it's, like, gone.
Sarah:You know? Every now and then, there'll be something some if I'm working with a couple, I find it's a little trickier to to let it go. I get I get it because it's so intense with people who are having conflicts.
Wendy:Absolutely. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. It's so intense, that that energy that's that's permeating. And I don't work with a lot of couples.
Wendy:It's easy to do shamanic work with couples.
Sarah:No. It's more it's well, it's a mix of the two things. We'll journey together, the the couple.
Wendy:Well, yeah, I could see the way you do it would be probably easier than the way I would approach it, typically. Yeah.
Sarah:I mean, there's the psychological aspects and the but the journey aspects really help a lot. But with couples, after they leave, I typically have to, like, intentionally clear myself. It doesn't just automatically happen. Sometimes I feel like, woah. You know?
Wendy:Yeah. Well, they're they get a little I've at least I've noticed a little tangled up together. It like, whatever they're presenting about their issues as a couple. Yeah. And especially by the time they're seeking help, it's probably pretty deep.
Sarah:Those are the people I don't work with.
Wendy:Gotcha.
Sarah:I work with people who are in a relationship, and they wanna make it better. Mhmm. Not that they're coming because they're, like, this far from divorce and they
Wendy:hate Okay. Guts. Which is where when most people
Sarah:Which is yeah. Seek help. Yeah. I I'm I'm not interested in that. It's just too much.
Sarah:It's like playing very high stakes two chessboards, you know, with very high stakes.
Wendy:Anyways So let me ask you this, getting back to the dismemberment thing. What impact do you think your dismemberment experiences have had on you on all those levels emotionally, mentally, spiritually?
Sarah:And physically.
Wendy:Oh, and physically. Yeah.
Sarah:Well, I think it's what you said. Maybe you're at the exact perfect place, and you have to be able to clear it out before you can move on in whatever way. I do think it's true that it's all perfect. Even though it feels like shit often, it's all perfect, and you're always learning the things, and you're always finding the jewels and the, you know, the alchemist, the the gold, and the lead.
Wendy:There is magic interspersed throughout it. It it is, but if you don't know what's happening, it's like the magic can become addictive. It's like, I want that. I don't like the sitting by the creek feeling sorry for myself in the rain. I don't like that part.
Sarah:Yeah. It sounds kind of interesting, actually.
Wendy:Like that old.
Sarah:Well, lonely.
Wendy:It sounded like a. Yeah. No. I was, yeah, I was doing a good job feeling sorry for myself. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. No. It was all very poetic. Holy shit. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. I had a very similar experience when I was living in Vancouver one winter. And it just rained and rained and rained and rained. And I was feeling very sorry for myself. Yeah.
Sarah:I decided I was going to go to University of British Columbia to finish my my bachelor's degree. And I just got the hell out of there. I stayed I am went walking back
Wendy:to That's it.
Sarah:University and said, please take me back. Yeah. Was there more to say about dismemberment and remember well, remembering. That you know, like, what is remembering? Remembering.
Sarah:Being remembered. That's like an interesting word. It is. Yeah. As you think about the what happens to you.
Sarah:You know? It's You're reborn. You're reborn.
Wendy:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:You're reborn. I mean, that's death and rebirth. But, again, hopefully, a cleaner version of yourself, more pure authentic version of yourself. Each time it happens, it's like you're shedding another layer of bullshit.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Of who you thought you were Yeah. And hopefully getting to a closer version of who you really are.
Sarah:Yeah. But, I mean, it's a bit like snakes because you like like, for example, I referenced my marriage. Like, there were many times in that marriage where I was very content and very happy and very very myself. It's not like I wasn't myself. But at some point, I started to grow into the more spiritual end of my direction, and that's when things got tricky.
Wendy:Yeah. No. That makes perfect sense. These little pulls in a certain direction
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:That gets you restless. And Yeah. And so you're kind of squirming around in your in your old skin, and this snake is transmutation. Right? It's symbolically classic death and rebirth symbol.
Sarah:Yeah. When they grow out of their skin, that's what it feels like. Yeah. You're going through that.
Wendy:It's really uncomfortable.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:But necessary. Yeah. You can't undo it. You can't go back into the old skin. Once you start the process, you gotta see it through.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:That's the way it seems.
Sarah:You know, it's interesting what you just said about being uncomfortable. I've become obsessed with helping people and myself, all of which started because of my new dog, and teaching him what it is. He's very smart and very energetic and young. And when he gets uncomfortable, he wants to do something about that, whether it's run or pull or jump on another dog. And I've become obsessed with the idea of what is it to be uncomfortable and not do anything about it.
Wendy:Oh, great question. Yeah. So what does that mean then?
Sarah:What I started with the dog was we go for a walk, and then we go on to the there's a cafe and a market on the corner of my street. Very active, lots of people. And he used to just lose his mind there jumping on people. And so we sit now on on this bench, and I don't give him directives. I don't give him instructions.
Sarah:Nothing. We just sit there, and he has to figure out what to do with himself. And, you know, if he if he's straining to go eat some garbage off the street, which he loves to do, I just give him a little tug back. I don't talk to him and, you know, come on. Calm down.
Sarah:Calm down. All the stuff. And he's become incredible. He's got it now. He just sits there and watches things happen and then the cars and the people.
Sarah:And and so with human beings, I've I've really started to, like, go into this with with my clients and, again, with myself. Like, giving myself space to be uncomfortable when something is happening and realizing I don't actually have to do anything about it. You know?
Wendy:I don't I think you're hitting on something really important. You don't have to what do you what you were just saying?
Sarah:I don't have to have a drink or have coffee or eat food or call somebody or, you know, have alcohol. Like, whatever the thing is that we do when we become uncomfortable. Oh, I have to make a change. I have to, like I don't like you. Go away.
Sarah:You know, we we're constantly reacting to some level of discomfort that we have. Right?
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Sarah:It's like like I said, hungry, thirsty, tired, not tired, anxious, take a Xanax, like, all the things that people do. And what happens if you just sit with it and have a breath and be uncomfortable? And I I just think it's like, why don't they teach us that when we're, like, five years old?
Wendy:That's a great question. Because they don't?
Sarah:They don't.
Wendy:Yeah. So what you're making me think is the is it that these experiences are teaching us to be resilient? Because you can't I mean, especially when you're going through the dismemberment experience, you can't make yourself comfortable. You just can't. You just have to kind of tolerate it and just find the best way through that you know how given your life circumstances and who you are at that point.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:But on the other end of it, how can you not be more resilient? And that, like, you were talking about subsequent dismemberment experiences, you understand them now. And you you can say, alright. I know what this is about, and I I know I'll get through it. Yeah.
Wendy:And I because I know how to do this.
Sarah:Yeah. And, you know, like I was saying, I'm a little uncomfortable now, and I'm thinking, oh, should I leave LA? Should I move to the like, part of me wants to just have a cabin in the woods again, which I had a cabin in the woods, and I was uncomfortable. So I'm like, alright. And now I'm like, oh, I want the cabin in the woods again.
Sarah:You know, this this discomfort
Wendy:of Right.
Sarah:The city, the politics, all the stuff that's going on in our world.
Wendy:Yeah. That's what I was thinking too is that that I'm noticing more and more discomfort in the folks I'm working with and everywhere. It's just it's a really uncomfortable time because I've been calling this a global dismemberment that we're going through. So it's
Sarah:Oh, that's a good thing.
Wendy:Uncomfortable on all levels everywhere. So it's not fun, but we're in it, and there's nothing we can do to change course.
Sarah:Thing, though, a global dismemberment. I hadn't used those words ever to describe what's going on, But that's absolutely the truth.
Wendy:No. It's death and rebirth on so many different levels, all the systems. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. You know, people are like, I'm uncomfortable. I have to go protest down in downtown, or I have to go there. I have to give money. I have to I think, okay.
Wendy:I'll Yeah. It gives that illusion that maybe I can do something or feel productive or useful or in making a difference. But this is a This is a big machine. One. Yeah.
Wendy:This is it's on its way. And if if you don't have that kind of, like, you're describing eloquently, this ability to sit with the discomfort, then it's extra uncomfortable. But I'm wondering if we look at the discomfort as information, like, alright, what is this discomfort trying to tell me about myself? Like, you're looking at your restlessness. What is that is it about where I live?
Wendy:Is it about what I'm doing? Yeah. Just asking questions, being curious, because we are exploring the realms of curiosity.
Sarah:We are. And and I think for me, my discomfort is, you know, feeling and seeing everything that's going on. And we're very programmed as human beings to do something about it. You know? And Yeah.
Sarah:And Yep. I'm I'm just not sure what there is to do at this time other than, you know, like you said, it's a big machine, and and it's being run-in very mysterious ways. Interesting
Wendy:ways.
Sarah:In interest furious ways. And each day brings more like like, the train just keeps coming. You know? And you can't you can't keep up with it. And and
Wendy:much of Well, yeah. Why try? Up with it.
Sarah:Yeah. Like, now we don't have Epstein anymore bombarding us every every every every day. Now we have the wars, the various worrying things that are going on, and that's like, okay. We don't like, Epstein's fallen off the coffee table. Nobody even thinks about him right now.
Wendy:How it all works right now. But by the time this releases, who knows what it'll be? Who knows what it'll When this conversation is out there.
Sarah:That's right.
Wendy:Who fucking knows?
Sarah:Who fucking knows?
Wendy:I think maybe that's why a lot of people are drawn to meditation because that is a great practice to be mindful of the discomfort and not get attached to it.
Sarah:Yeah. Well, the way I do it is For
Wendy:people who know how to meditate.
Sarah:I don't need you don't even have to meditate, really. I hate meditating. It makes me anxious. But
Wendy:I suck at it, obviously. But
Sarah:what I've started doing when I'm feeling uncomfortable in whatever way that is is kind of like Buddhist y Zen idea, I look for the space between the stuff. Beautiful.
Wendy:Yep. That's perfect.
Sarah:And it's just like I see this kind of I don't know. It's it feels like a bit of a it it feels like a little dark, but it's very soothing, and it's just empty. So I find that emptiness between the stuff and just be there, you know, which is what I've been teaching the dog. And that's what he does. He just sits there.
Sarah:Every now and then, some tourists will be like, oh, can I pet your dog? And then all bets are off.
Wendy:That's cute.
Sarah:You know, because he loses his mind with excitement. But then they leave, and I just ignore him. It's so great because we're so you know, gotta do these things to train the dog. But what about not doing the things to train the dog? You know?
Wendy:Yeah. Or or constantly engaging when they're doing the thing Yeah. Which gets them engaged with you because you're doing the thing now with them.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:So you're participating in this dance of misbehavior. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay.
Wendy:We're gonna do this now. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna bug the shit out of her, and then she's gonna get annoyed and then but I'm gonna get a lot of attention.
Sarah:Gonna get a lot of attention.
Wendy:Gonna turn up the volume on the misbehavior.
Sarah:Yeah. And and a lot of it is my fault
Wendy:too because dog expert.
Sarah:Yeah. So when he's laying down and just chilling and being, like, super peaceful, I often decide to stroke him. And so what am I doing? I'm stimulating him. Mhmm.
Sarah:And now he's, like, now he's like, oh, what what's happening here?
Wendy:More, please.
Sarah:More, please. Like, what's happening? Boom. Boom. Now wait.
Sarah:Wait. Why did you stop stroking me? You know? So it's my fault. And I have a hard time when he's so cute and sleepy to not touch him.
Wendy:At least
Sarah:let him be. You know? It's very hard. I I don't know that I've succeeded at that because he's so cute.
Wendy:He's really cute. And he's
Sarah:so soft. You know? And I won't touch him. I mean, we love dogs.
Wendy:But maybe when he gets old enough, you can touch him, and he won't have that reaction.
Sarah:I don't know. I have a feeling this dog's gonna be, like, reactive for
Wendy:many years. Forever.
Sarah:He's just so curious. You know? Speaking of curious, he should be part of our program. Sometimes he is. Yeah.
Sarah:That's right. He was
Wendy:I'm a little bummed he's not here today.
Sarah:Well, he is. He's just
Wendy:I mean, like, in the picture.
Sarah:Yeah. He's asleep. Well, is that all how we finished?
Wendy:I think yeah.
Sarah:I didn't mean that to sound so despairing.
Wendy:Sure, Sarah. I guess we're done here.
Sarah:I didn't know. Are we finished?
Wendy:Are we done?
Sarah:I don't wanna talk to you anymore.
Wendy:Yeah. We did talk a long time today. It was fun.
Sarah:Yeah. It was fun. Thank you. I love talking to you.
Wendy:I love talking to you more. Bye, Wendy. Bye, darling. See you next time. Bye.