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Kaatscast: the Catskills Podcast is a biweekly series featuring Catskills culture, history, sustainability, local interviews, literature, and the arts. Shows are hosted by Brett Barry and produced by Silver Hollow Audio, in the heart of the Catskills. Subscribe and experience what reviewers have called “delightfully informative” storytelling with “great production quality.” Voted “Best Regional Podcast” three years in a row. Episode archives, transcripts, and a robust search engine at kaatscast.com. Enjoy!
Transcription by Jerome Kazlauskas
[00:00:00] Colleen McMurray: I love to say there are no limitations, and I love to say that we are here for whatever the community needs, and I think that's how a lot of our programming has actually come to life. The community has come to us and said, "We want to do this," or "We're looking for a space for this," and we found a way to make it happen. However, the community needs the space, we'll meet that need, so...
[00:00:23] Brett Barry: For a small Catskills town that counts its residents in the low hundreds, the presence of a community center, offering everything from art and music to pottery classes, and a carefully curated thrift shop attests to a community that takes care of its own. I'm Brett Barry, and this is "Kaatscast," and today we are back in Pine Hill, where the Pine Hill Community Center recently celebrated its 25th anniversary. We caught up with director Colleen McMurray and founder Florence Hamling as residents filtered in and out for some thrifting, a social circle, or just a midday coffee break.
[00:01:05] Colleen McMurray: I'm Colleen McMurray, and we are at the Pine Hill Community Center.
[00:01:09] Florence Hamling: I'm Florence Hamling. I'm the founder of the Community Center, 25 years ago.
[00:01:14] Brett Barry: Can you tell me a little bit about the history of this building?
[00:01:17] Florence Hamling: It was an eyeglass factory where they just made frames, and prior to that it was a gas station. They used to service cars here. There's a pit here where, you know, they used to drain the oil or whatever they do, so we've been in existence for a long time. The original owner was the mayor of the town I understand. I knew him when I was young [a little bit]. His name was Charlie Griffin. He lived next door, you know, and so it's been around for many, many years [turn of the century].
[00:01:51] Brett Barry: Fast forward to 1995, when Florence's late husband, Bernie Hamling, purchased the building for research and development for his high-performance ceramics company downstate. Five years later, in 2000, tragedy struck the town and prompted Florence and Bernie Hamling to found the community center.
[00:02:13] Florence Hamling: Well, my husband bought this building, and he had an R&D here, a small R&D. He was semi-retired. Anyway, he was here on a Sunday, and there was a lot of commotion. A boy shot himself, and so the parents carried him down the street, you know, because the helicopter was going to come to the firehouse here and try to take him to Albany or Kingston to try to save his life, and so, you know, it was a Sunday afternoon, a lot of people were around, so they were all panicky to see this, you know, situation like that, so my husband said, "Just come in," so all of a sudden all these people came into here, and then the townspeople, you know, just had a very hard time dealing with it. It was such a tragedy, so they—my husband—decided, you know, and I—it's good to have a place for people to come, like a community, you know, where they all can gather, so he was about to retire, and he was going to sell the place, and, you know, we were talking, and I said, "Why don't we, you know, make it into a community center?" And that's exactly what we did. That's how this came about, so we've been here 25 years, and I hope we'll be here for another 25 years, very successful as a community center. It was really needed. It's our pleasure to be able to do this for our community.
[00:03:47] Brett Barry: So, Colleen, how did you get involved with the center?
[00:03:50] Colleen McMurray: So I actually grew up in Margaretville and had moved away for college and life and had kind of moved all over and was living in Boston just before the pandemic. I knew I wanted to move back and settle here, and I have always been doing nonprofit work, so when I moved back, I was looking for something community-related, community-relations-related, and a neighbor of my parents actually was like, "You are perfect for this job," and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I haven't been in Pine Hill in ages," and ironically enough, I had run a summer camp program through Kids in the Catskills when I was in high school. Still, I was running a part of that program in Andy's, actually, and knew that they had a program here, so I knew what kind of work they were doing already, and I knew that they had been doing it for a long time when my neighbor had recommended that I apply for this position.
[00:04:41] Florence Hamling: Your neighbor was on the board?
[00:04:42] Colleen McMurray: Yes.
[00:04:43] Florence Hamling: So she's the one that...
[00:04:43] Colleen McMurray: She was on the board and introduced us, yes.
[00:04:46] Florence Hamling: Yes.
[00:04:46] Colleen McMurray: So I had interviewed and really loved the board at the time and had been reintroduced to the space, which was drastically different from how I knew it as a child, and it was also undergoing some upcoming renovations, and it just felt like the right fit, so when I got hired here, I started in the midst of a global pandemic and started when the space was under renovations and...
[00:05:12] Florence Hamling: She's been the best director that we've ever had.
[00:05:14] Colleen McMurray: You can't see.
[00:05:16] Florence Hamling: Oh yes, so true.
[00:05:17] Colleen McMurray: Definitely edit that out.
[00:05:19] Florence Hamling: Put that down. You quote me about that.
[00:05:23] Colleen McMurray: Yikes.
[00:05:24] Florence Hamling: Everyone loves her, young, old, and everyone in between. She's the best.
[00:05:30] Colleen McMurray: Well, thank you.
[00:05:32] Brett Barry: As the editor of this show, I debated fiercely with myself on whether to edit out or to keep that exchange, but Florence's genuine admiration for Colleen seemed in this case to override Colleen's embarrassment/diplomacy. You are the director of the center that comes with a salary, I would assume, and you talk about the renovations to the building that costs money. How is this center funded and how are people paid?
[00:06:02] Colleen McMurray: We have, I think... I like the word "nimble," but I often use "small but mighty" staff. I am the only full-time employee that we have, and then we have two part-time staff who I could not do my job without them, and then we have a very strong group of volunteers that keep this space running, but we are primarily funded through, like, private donations, which is a huge bulk of it, and then historically we've been funded through local foundations and grant funding. Just recently, I think 2023 was the first year that we had applied for and received in our first year a state grant, which was very exciting for us [a tedious process], but we've been funded through the same grant for the past three years now, which is great, but it is a good balance between private donations and grant donations.
[00:06:54] Florence Hamling: It works, you know?
[00:06:55] Colleen McMurray: Yeah, and our thrift is massively revenue-generating. It is a huge bulk of where income comes from and also a great way we can serve the community.
[00:07:04] Florence Hamling: And that's a volunteer, Berns, who really is in charge of that, and it's amazing the job she does and how much the shop takes in every year.
[00:07:13] Colleen McMurray: Yes.
[00:07:13] Florence Hamling: Every year gets bigger and better. She deserves a lot of credit. She's an amazing volunteer.
[00:07:19] Colleen McMurray: It's a curated piece of art [the thrift shop].
[00:07:22] Florence Hamling: Yeah, it's great.
[00:07:22] Brett Barry: Thrift shop manager Berns Rothchild is a longtime Pine Hiller whom we found organizing racks of brand-new clothing for a spring sale.
[00:07:33] Berns Rothchild: Well, I joined the board. I'm not a member now, but I was on the board maybe 13 or so years ago, and I was just trying to figure out where my place was here. They had a room in the back of the center that was full of junk, and I asked if I could take over the space. I work in advertising in the city, and I get lots of free shit, so am I allowed to say "shit"? So I started the thrift store, and 13 years later, here we are. I created a monster. I have one helper, and we spend probably 30 hours a week collectively on thrift store volunteering, and it's fun. Yeah, when I worked on photo shoots, I would get the stylist who would give me all their clothes, and so we used to get a ton of stuff, which we call "shoot loot," and we have a relationship with Eileen Fisher, and that's been life-altering for us. A company just sent me beautiful little coats for kids...
[00:08:42] Brett Barry: Fur-trimmed OshKosh parkas?
[00:08:44] Berns Rothchild: OshKosh, yeah, a whole bunch of OshKosh. I might end up giving these away to families who need them.
[00:08:53] Brett Barry: What do you find special about living in Pine Hill?
[00:08:57] Berns Rothchild: I feel like it's the Wild West. You can kind of do whatever you want here.
[00:09:03] Brett Barry: Back to Colleen and Florence, so can you give a sense of all the different things that happen here?
[00:09:09] Colleen McMurray: So on a weekly basis, we have exercise classes. We have a pottery circle that happens and an open pottery studio for folks that want to learn or folks that already are well-versed and just want to use the space. We have a social circle, which is a very inclusive group for anyone to come and meet and truly just socialize and occasionally work on their craft projects while they socialize. We have a gallery that turns over every eight weeks and features a different local artist. We have our thrift that is always busy. We like it that way. We've got concerts that happen on a usually seasonal basis. They're usually a little heavier in the summer, the spring and summer, and a little quieter in the winter, but they're happening on a pretty consistent basis, and we've got some seasonal activities that happen. We have an annual plant sale. We have holiday bazaars with local artists that are selling their goods. We have the Maker's Market, which is local artists right in this space here that can sell their wares and can sell their art, and really we're just a space for folks to come in that need resources for anything and everything. We have a wellness program that includes, I always say, it includes our watercolor class because that is a social experience. We folks that I think are coming more so for the social aspect than the arts aspect, although they love both, and we have a weekly real talk, which is a space for anyone to come in almost in Alcoholics Anonymous style: a conversation where folks can just come in and talk about anything that's troubling them or anything that they might need support for. A lot of our partnerships happen outside of this space, but on a weekly basis as well, so we also have we're partnered with the Phoenicia Food Pantry, so we have a staff person that will go down and pack bags there for the families that we serve in Pine Hill and the surrounding area, and then they get delivered, and a couple of folks will pick up here.
[00:11:19] Brett Barry: And the Phoenicia Farmers Market, which happens here in the winter?
[00:11:24] Florence Hamling: Yeah, very successful.
[00:11:25] Colleen McMurray: So very successful, Sophie Grant runs the program, and I think we just figured out this was our fourth winter together, which feels crazy to me because it happened so fast, but they usually function outside in Phoenicia. They were looking for a space inside and couldn't find something that was big enough and affordable enough, and we had the space and figured, what else are we doing on a Sunday? And that's kind of created a little history here, so they've been here for four years every Sunday from eleven to two, and it's brought a lot of new community members to us. It's brought people far and wide. There are definitely regulars, and it's become quite a social scene where people will just come and have lunch and head out for the day.
[00:12:10] Brett Barry: Are there any limitations on how the community can use this space? Or, in other words, if an idea surfaces, what's the process for bringing it to the center and creating a program?
[00:12:20] Colleen McMurray: That's a great question. I love to say there are no limitations, and I love to say that we are here for whatever the community needs, and I think that's how a lot of our programming has actually come to life. The community has come to us and said, "We want to do this," or We're looking for space for this," and we found a way to make it happen. Facebook message us or call us on the phone. All of our emails are on the website, and let us know what your idea is, and we're happy to work on it. However, the community needs the space that will meet that need.
[00:12:51] Brett Barry: As Colleen guided us through the building, the space opened up around us: bright, clean, and inviting.
[00:12:59] Colleen McMurray: So this is the thrift shop. "There's something for everyone in there," we like to say, and then this space out here is the Maker's Market, which is local artists selling their wares. We've got our middle room, which is where a little bit of everything happens, so this is exercise classes. This section over here on the right is the gallery that switches every eight weeks. We've got our stage, which is usually for concerts but has also been for some really great lectures [occasionally a summer camp theater performance self-directed by the kids]. It's kind of hilarious. We've got a pottery studio through this door completely managed by volunteers. I like to say it's a very co-opted space, and spring and summer is prime time for lessons and teachings, but every Thursday it's a group of volunteers that will come in and, like, skill-share, which is so fun because they kind of pick a project. We'll work on it, and on the first Thursdays of every month, anyone can come in and learn for the very first time, and then they can just continue to come and create, so it's very casual and we don't want anyone to feel like it's a scary place to come or it's super structured. We want people to feel really comfortable, but it's the volunteers that keep it clean and keep it running, and then they just come to me when they need things to be reordered, so there's a membership option, and then there's just a day pass option, so folks that just want to pop in for the day can, and folks that wanna be here every day can also do that.
[00:14:26] Brett Barry: By paying that fee, you have access to not only equipment but supplies and clay and everything you need.
[00:14:31] Colleen McMurray: Yep, clay glaze firings—everything you could possibly need, and there's always really great sounds that come from this space. I'll never forget the day that Ann, who is one of our like lead volunteers right now [she's really coordinating a lot of this space]. She took her first wheel class like a year ago, and I just remember hearing like this squeal coming from the pottery studio, and I like popped back here. I was like, "Is everything okay?" And she was like, "I did it." I threw my first bowl, and it was like the most impeccable piece of ceramics that I've ever seen. I was like, "You just did that like your first time around, so it's very satisfying, I think, for people to create and then see this thing that they just made with their hands and they're very proud of." It's a cool space.
[00:15:14] Florence Hamling: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:16] Brett Barry: Then we popped into the backroom where half a dozen community members were connecting over homemade cake and coffee.
[00:15:22] Colleen McMurray: This space is usually used for youth and summer camp but during the week it is used for our watercolor class [used for right now social circle], which is just a bunch of good chitchat and snacks and coffee, and then the farmers market usually does hot food back here, so it's a little bit of everything. This is our catchall space, and then outside, there's actually a butterfly garden just behind here where the kids play in the summer, and sometimes people go out for a cup of tea, or there's been a couple music performances out on that little patio, and this is us.
[00:15:56] Brett Barry: When people want to book the space, is there a set price list, or is there a suggested donation, or how do you work that out?
[00:16:02] Colleen McMurray: So we really try to accommodate places that are local and are either underfunded or not funded or local nonprofits that we will happily let them use the space for free, especially if it's after hours and it doesn't require our staff to do enormous amounts of work, but otherwise, it's $25 an hour, regardless of how much space it could be—the whole space, it could be a smaller space—so if it's available, we want people here.
[00:16:29] Brett Barry: $25 an hour for the whole space is almost free.
[00:16:33] Colleen McMurray: It's basically free, and oftentimes that includes, like, we'll make you a pot of coffee and you can use our paper products, and you have access to anything you want.
[00:16:41] Brett Barry: Colleen, just a little bit about the day-to-day, like, what does it take to run a place like this?
[00:16:45] Colleen McMurray: Oh, goodness, I could be here all day talking about that. It's literally a little bit of everything every day. For me, personally, it is a little bit of grant writing. It's a little bit of social services when someone walks in the door and needs a resource. I always say my job is a lot of like finessing egos and listening to people's stories, which I love. That's my favorite part and also the most challenging part, but... and then it's really working hard on the partnerships and making sure that we are a part of the community and we are rippling through the community as much as we are serving it, so it really is a little bit of everything.
[00:17:20] Brett Barry: So this is a really unique and large space for a little town like this. What would you say to other communities about the benefits that a place like this brings and maybe a motivation to expand this idea throughout other small villages and hamlets in the Catskills?
[00:17:39] Florence Hamling: Well, you know, you have to have someone that has some money to get it going, and this is why so many of these communities, especially small towns, they try, but they don't succeed. It is a difficult, you know, and long process to get established, but once you are established, grants come in easier because they know that, you know, you're here to more or less stay. They're willing to invest in you. That's what really makes it happen and develop. Without grants, you know, it would be a lot different. It's a lot of hard work, and you have to have the right people behind it.
[00:18:15] Brett Barry: The center recently celebrated its 25th anniversary. Colleen, you've been here since 2020, so...
[00:18:25] Colleen McMurray: 5 years.
[00:18:26] Brett Barry: ...5, almost 6 years?
[00:18:27] Colleen McMurray: 5+.
[00:18:28] Brett Barry: And, Florence, you've been here from the beginning, so what changes have both of you seen, and what direction is it taking?
[00:18:34] Florence Hamling: It's growing like crazy. It's almost scary. We need an extension. No, but we know how to work it out and work around it, and, you know, some programs are here for a couple years, and then they pal around—there's new ones, and it's good, and there's a variety of many different things, which keeps it interesting, and like I said, Colleen is one of the main reasons why it's so successful. People just love her. She knows how to handle situations, and she has the energy and the interests, and so it's very good. We have the right people.
[00:19:13] Brett Barry: And, Colleen, what's it like working with Florence and having that kind of institutional memory?
[00:19:19] Colleen McMurray: I don't think I would have a career here without institutional memory. I think so much of what has happened in the past five and a half years. It's been such an evolution of the past and not being afraid to recreate it, but being able to move with the times and to grow in, I think, a sustainable way. We've also got so much of a new community and a change in community, and I think welcoming that community as we grow and shift and new programming comes in and moves out, the community is shaping all of that.
[00:19:54] Florence Hamling: And for being a small town, it's interesting to see almost everyone involved. You know, they just feel very comfortable here, and it's a friendly atmosphere. It's very good for everyone, yeah.
[00:20:07] Brett Barry: I asked what's on tap for the immediate future, and Colleen gave us a little preview.
[00:20:13] Colleen McMurray: We recently partnered with Catskill Neighbors and their new group called "The Good Company Club," and they will be here Thursdays starting in July for a dementia social program where folks can come and meet with friends and socialize, and there's programming that will be happening, so whether it's pottery that they're working on or music classes or exercise classes, they're going to meet in this space, and there'll be volunteers that are also here, and they're all trained to work with folks with dementia, and they get to have a lunch that's made by a local restaurant and hang out so that their caregivers can have some respite. They can grocery shop or go to doctor's appointments or take care of themselves for a little bit, and I feel like that is like the epitome of what a community center should be doing, and I feel like we have become a space for folks to really age in place, and I love that so much because I think I moved back, and I hope to age in place here, so I think it's the program I'm most looking forward to right now. We are gaining access to the second floor, which runs the entire building. It's huge, which will hopefully be a great meeting space and an office because I have given up my office twice now for a thrift closet and a food pantry, but it will eventually be a programming space and office and a meeting space for both board meetings, and if folks want to book meetings here for external stuff, we've had the hospital come in and other partnerships come in and use it, but it is currently only accessible via stairs, so our next big, big project is an elevator, just a small elevator that would get people who need access to the second floor access and would make it easier to do quiet programs like yoga or meditation that I think are really serving the senior population to get them up there safely, so that is the next big grant application and big funding project. We feel incredibly rich to be in this teeny tiny hamlet with both a community center and a library that has so many resources that complement the resources that we have as well, so we feel like we have won the grand prize of tiny hamlets, so...
[00:22:34] Brett Barry: More info, including a schedule of programs, at pinehillcommunitycenter.org. Recording for this story by production intern Sierra DeVito. Transcripts by Jerome Kazlauskas. "Kaatscast" is a production of Silver Hollow Audio. More at kaatscast.com. I'm Brett Barry. Thanks for listening.