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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment, this present moment, wherever
you find yourself taking the opportunity,
the grace and the space to be present
in your body, watching your heart rate
slow down, witnessing the thoughts.
Become softer and allowing your
emotional heart to expand to become open.
Breathing in and breathing out,
I invite you to consider your
ancestors, your lineage, people
that have walked before you.
And as you do so simply taking
a breath in and a breath out and
allowing a person or people to come
towards you to arise in your awareness
and to simply be acknowledged.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Examining what it's doing to your body,
recognizing the stories that are coming
to your attention, and checking in with
the emotional heart as you recognize
this person or people breathing in
and breathing out now simultaneously
leaning to the future to descendants.
Familial, generational, communal,
imagining, witnessing, and
recognizing all the people that
will come after us breathing in
and breathing out, offering you.
The conduit, the space
that you are between your
ancestors and your descendants,
and allowing it all to feel, to be
recognized and to be present with
breathing in and breathing out.
Taking this moment to acknowledge that
you are the bridge between two worlds.
And as you do so, paying gratitude,
paying grace, and paying compassionate
love to yourself as you witness
the people before you and the
people that will come after you.
And with one final breath
in and one final breath out.
Taking this opportunity to ground
yourself, coming back into your body,
allowing the stories to settle and
bearing witness to your emotional heart.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experie.
. We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness in spiritual emergence.
Today you're going to hear from one of my
guests, someone who I have a deep respect
for and have a history of working with and
revisiting with Emma . I'm deeply honored.
Emma, welcome.
Hi.
Thank you for having me.
How are you feeling coming in?
What's the emotion?
I'm like, had a pretty good day.
Phil was feeling a little nervous just to
like, you know, be like in a dialogue like
this, but also very excited because one
of my favorite subjects to talk about.
, isn't it lovely.
It's that anticipation of talking
about something that has so
much, heartfelt meaning to you.
When you think about this medicine work,
, what comes to your attention right now?
I think even just like listening
through your meditation.
And, and working with the medicine,
I think the first thing that
comes to mind is connection.
And I think that's what led me to it, is,
is that desire for connection and what
that, that value that it adds to my life.
And so that's the first thing
that would come up for me.
Can we unpack that a little
bit because I too find so much
appreciation for connection.
What does connection mean
to you and how do you see it
unfolding in your life today?
. Sure.
I think that's a great question and like
there's so much to say about it, but
I, I know what motivated me to explore
the world of medicine like this is, I
felt disconnected from a community and,
you know, I grew up very religious.
And then when I realized that's not
for me, it's, I didn't realize that
I was losing so many connections.
And when I felt like I was in a rut, , I
really examined what it was about, about
feeling down and depressed or anxious,
and it really is like not being able
to relate to other people or myself.
Yeah, , that's beautiful wisdom though.
Because what I'm hearing from you and how
I translate this is this idea of relating
not only to other people, but to myself.
And that's really the,
catalyst of medicine work is.
Forcing us to look at ourselves,
come to peace with ourselves, but
also then appreciating, without
judgment and honoring others as
we walk the path on this planet.
Yeah, definitely.
I think that's really important.
Like just fo following, like what can you
honor in your life and like what makes
sense for you versus like what makes
sense for other people and grow up like
honoring what we see in our environment.
And then at some point you're
like, oh this, I'm gonna take
this and I'm gonna leave this.
And that could be a really tricky
time and I think the medicine
has helped me personally.
Oh my gosh, so much.
Yeah, so much.
And it gets me excited to hear
you say something such as, what
do I need to leave and what do I
need to continue to hold with me?
Because often the psychedelic
medicines, there's an assumption
that we're just supposed to
eradicate who we are and start anew.
But what I like about what you're
saying is no, there's a large part
of medicine work that reminds you
of how important something is.
Yeah, definitely.
I think that was like one of my biggest
fears of like doing any type of like
psychedelic work is that you hear
often of like people having like ego
death and completely annihilating,
like their version of who they are.
At least that's how I interpreted it.
I know it can mean like several
things to different people, but
I like started getting this idea.
that you have to like completely
annihilate who you are in order to feel
better . And that was like terrifying.
And I was like, oh man, okay.
I guess if I have to do
this, I'll, I'll do it.
Cuz I, I needed a change.
I wanted something, I wanted to feel what?
People felt when they felt larger than
themselves or connected to this universe.
And again, like going back to
connection and, and I, I craved it
and I thought, oh man, you really have
to annihilate yourself in order to
like get to that and freaked me out.
But, . That's how desperate I
was to feel that connection.
And then like eventually realizing in
my journey, especially more recently,
that that's not really the case.
You don't have to eliminate who
you are to feel that connection.
That's such a breath of fresh air.
And, leading into what you're speaking
about recently in the last couple weeks
or so, you've had a wonderful experience.
Can you paint a picture of what
you're walking with today or share
what the experience provided?
Yeah, I like this last experience
was wonderful because I feel like
I finally understood what, what
people were talking about, in terms
of being in awe and feeling like.
, there's a greater world out there that
I might not be able to understand.
In the past, I think when I've had
experiences with medicine, with
psychedelics, it's been a little
different but this time I know that
I connected more with my, like, with
my family, which I wasn't even trying
to like, I was like, I already dealt
with, with that part in my life.
Like I already, that's already, I've
talked about them so much in therapy, like
I don't need to deal with them anymore.
And.
all of a sudden, like that's what
the medicine was pulling me to.
And and then after actually just like
giving into that, it was just one of
the, one of the best experiences for me.
Yeah.
And by giving into it, so to speak,
what happened, was there a sense of
surrendering or a sense of curiosity
of sorts that provided you then more
space to honor your family or the
people that came into your experie?
, I definitely just surrendered to something
like, just, just a memory, like first
and then I think I was wearing a piece
of jewelry that reminded me of my grandma
and, and, and she was someone that I
didn't really think, I didn't think
that she had an effect on our life.
I didn't realize that
I was like, grieving.
Loss without actually
like grieving her loss.
I don't know if that makes sense,
but, surrendering to that loss
and that pain that I didn't even
know, like was affecting me.
I just, I feel like a
pretty self-aware person.
. Like I, I draw my best to be.
So that's why when it came up
in my journey and it kept, I
think I spent like hours on it.
Like it just kept coming up and
up it, like I wanted to talk about
it and I, I didn't realize why.
, like I, I, I went into it and then I
even when I, especially when I started
journaling, that's when all of the grief
came out and I realized, wow, this lady
was, has been, you know, in my life
since I was born and has played such
a critical role and my upbringing and
really like able to like, understand
like who she was at a deeper level
and why that loss affected me so much.
Yeah.
And Emma, you're bringing up a super
imperative and I think, uh, strong.
Component to the integration
process after the experience.
Often there's so many people that will
say, oh, I felt that grief within the
medicine session, or It felt so strong.
But what you're really addressing
I appreciate is as you let it
kind of unfold and do more space
and provided it more energy.
You sound like you realized
the magnitude of the.
As you were sober?
Yes.
And yeah.
Tell me more about that experience.
Yeah, that's why it's, it's wild and
like, you know, you have a certain
experience and you really can't
put it into words at that time.
And you're not really supposed to,
like, especially me, like I'm, I, I'm
a talker and I like to intellectualize
things and I want to find meaning.
And so for me to like, , not know right
away what's happening is really difficult.
C I wanna know exactly what my
mind is going through and what's,
what my experience is, how my own
experience, or why my experience
is unfolding the way it does.
But the important aspect, I think
if anyone does wanna like, go
into this medicine is, is what
it, it, the integration matters
so much because that's where I.
Got my gems run.
That's where I had like this experience.
In the beginning it was like difficult.
There was definitely difficult
moments to it, and then it led
me to something so beautiful.
I, I still can't put that
ex that part into words.
And, a, after actually sitting and
writing and, and thinking about it
and letting all the feelings in is
when you start to make the connection
of like why your ancestors matter.
Like why.
, the familial relationships matter
to like feeling whole and connected
and where you wanna be as much
as you wanna leave them behind.
And, and , so many times I would
love to just push the turnoff
button and disconnect from them.
But like, it really hit me.
And why you, why it was important for
me to face, face those connections.
It means, yeah.
A tremendous amount of who we identify
with as a human being too is if we
discount our ancestors or the lineage
that we have chosen at some level,
or have been given it really, I
think defeats or negates who we are.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Point, knowing that you shared with
me so beautifully that you're a
talker and you intellectualize things.
What's the emotion that comes
up when you're, without words?
What happens to someone in a position
that doesn't have words or oi,
what, what do you do with that?
, if, like, if I don't have words,
like in, in terms, In the experience.
The inte.
Yeah, the intellectualizing.
Yeah.
What, what, what did you end up
recognizing you needed to do when
words became, in inappropriate or
unnecessary or even unattainable?
Oh, just like really feel into the
experience and just allow, allow it.
And I think the, I think like
what's really helpful in that
is the music, , that's playing.
I think I just like when
I let, let the music.
not control, but like, let it guide me.
It, I could really just like stop
intellectualizing and like, just
go on this journey that I, I really
cannot describe to, to you one words
right now because, no, I love it.
It's, you just can't, it's, it's, it, it
can lead you to some just profound beauty.
, that's where I laugh about myself and
even attempting to do what we're doing
is the words become meaningless because
the embodied experience is so priceless.
But then it's like, you, you don't have
the words, but yeah, it is priceless.
But you know, it, you know
this feeling and this is what
motivated you to do this, right?
And you, you, for anything that
you're passionate about and, and
a lot of people like pick jobs.
Go into school or, or move from
cities and they don't know what's at
the end, but they have like this gut
feeling that it's, it's something good.
And that's, I think that's the
best I could say in terms of words.
It's like, I, I knew this, it
was worth like, Doing this.
I just didn't know why and towards
the end it was like, oh, this is it.
Like this is what, what
I was searching for.
And share with me your
embodied experience today.
Are you still swimming in that?
Are you still have that knowing, as you
said so eloquently, this understanding
within why you're doing this work and why
you're on this healing spiritual journey?
That's a really good question.
Just because like when you, when you go
back to your life, your life and, and,
and you know, work and family and friends
and all of that hits and it's really,
it's really easy to just get distracted
from what, what you're learning from the
experience, like what you experienced.
And I found myself doing like losing
like what I thought I learned until I
take a pause and go back into like, , you
know, like just, just defining stillness
and then just going back into like that
wholeness and that, that connection.
I love that stillness too, because I
think it, it shines a light on, it doesn't
have to be hours, it doesn't have to be
regurgitating or turning this, mm-hmm.
psychedelic experience into a dissertation
or a book or some tomb of information.
But what you just said is
momentary stillness to remind you.
Yeah, I think that's a, a challenge for
me because I am like, go all in or nothing
sometimes, and so like it and, and,
and you're a hundred percent on point.
It doesn't have to be, extensive
journaling and medi like meditating for
, a week or two, , continuously after it
really is, just about having like that
embedded in your, in your daily life and
it's gonna be good for you long term,
regardless of like having a, a session or.
Share with me a little bit of
what, you do when you come up
against, is this real or not?
Right?
I know often for myself included,
I, I start to question and I
start to examine what is this?
Was it real?
Did this happen?
Am I appropriately examining
something that I should be?
How do you discern, um, working
with something and when is it app.
To just accept something.
yeah, that's definitely,
something that's been challenging
for me since I've returned.
Cause like the magnitude
of, of the experience can be
jarring and, it's different.
It's, it's, the feeling is different.
Like not a lot of people, you
know, have gone through it.
It's, you know, this is like
pretty unique work, I think.
I think it's like really meaningful
work and I think it's gonna help a
lot of people, but it's hard to like,
talk to other people about it and say
like, I feel ungrounded because I felt
like I was in a different world and
it was a beautiful world, but now I'm
in this real world and it feels just
like what was real and what wasn't.
And.
. It's just like that ability to be
like, I can touch my body and I'm here.
And then like, or even just like watching
like funny shows on TV has been like,
helpful and like laughing and like
just calming down and I'm like, oh, I,
I can laugh and I can, I can be here
in this moment and I can like sit.
And again, just goes back to like that
stillness, not being like overstimulated.
and, and connecting back to like the,
the experience to know, like that
was something that happened, in my
session and now I'm here and, and,
and I'm able to like contemplate it.
Yeah, I hear this, as in one foot being
in process and taking it seriously,
but having one foot out of process
and knowing that reality needs to
have some lightheartedness, it's okay.
And I, I'm a huge endorser in
watching mindless TV two ground.
Touching one's body to remind
ourselves that we are embodied and
not having to carry to be paradoxical.
Now, this torch of integration 24
hours a day where there's actually
a place to go, okay, that happened
and I don't need to be mining the
existential story that it provided me.
I can really still embody and be aware of
the presence of living this experience.
Yeah.
Def it's really, it just goes
back to like, what can get
you back into this moment?
Cuz that's where you can find like for
like the most peace, at Leasts for me.
And I, I know that like, it's, it's just,
I think the medicine really helped me
just give an example of like, this is
what it feels like to be hearing now.
This is what it feels like
to quiet your thoughts.
And so I, I love that I can actually go
back to that feeling, you know, it's,
Whether what was real or not, it doesn't
even matter because I know I can just
like, I know what it feel felt like to
be in the present moment and that was
really hard for me cuz my thoughts are
always running, my thoughts are always
trying to like take control, and now
it's like instead of control, I can just
discern the moments of like having a
lot of thoughts into like, just being
in the moment, whether it's from like
mindless, teeny, or you know, Yeah,
take a walk or intense work or, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
taking a walk.
It's beautiful.
There's no, there's no
separation when we're present.
And I love the word that you used,
and I know it's important to you,
the consensual discernment, right?
Yes.
You get consent and you
get the discernment of it.
Yes, exactly.
And I think it's like, I think
the differentiating control versus
discernment, it was really important
about like, I wanna control
everything that happens to me.
But like being able to watch your
experience and kind of pick and choose
like where you wanna go with it, was just
such a key, key, um, aspect of me, like
getting the most out of my, my session.
What are you doing, um, to recognize
yourself in gentleness, you know,
I love that word and mm-hmm.
. Emma, I'm gonna ask you, what
are you walking, how are you
walking, and what do you notice
regarding gentleness with yourself?
You know, that was one of the best
things I think that came from the
experience is that like, . I don't know.
I know I've done a lot of
work going into it, so I don't
wanna just like dismiss that.
Like I've been practicing like, on
a daily basis, like of, you know,
doing like a, even like a 10 minute
meditation in the morning or, or doing
a, guided meditation before I go to bed.
Like, but really the experience just
taught me how to be gentle and it was
that teaching that, that, that lesson.
. I hope I'm, I'm doing some justice
in, in explaining this, but like, the
gentleness right now feels natural.
Like, I'm not going outta
my way to do the gentleness.
It's not like a goal, it's
not a goal on my list.
And that, like is wild to me.
It really, this really is like such a
powerful tool to help you because it felt
like, oh, I was, I was just given this
lesson on how to be gentle with myself.
, which is the opposite of what I
thought psychedelics is supposed to be.
So it's really nice to know that,
you know, also there, there are
differences amongst the psychedelics.
So, but my session in particular
helped me be gentle and it was just a
lesson and now it feels just natural
to like think that way to be kinder.
. Yeah.
To be kinder to oneself
and allow it to settle in.
Mm-hmm.
, it's a profound gratitude I have for
you, and I am deeply honored to walk
next to you in your healing path.
Thank you so much.
Yes, thank you.
I appreciate that a lot.