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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.324)
Hi, how are you?
Julian (00:03.615)
I'm great. How are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05.344)
We're doing good. Well, I'm doing good. I don't want to speak for Becky, but you're okay. Yeah, it's hot. It's hot. Yeah. Yeah. I was just telling my wife that yesterday. I was like, this heat is oppressive. And I was telling Becky, our office, this side of the house gets the most sunlight during the day. So it feels like a sauna in here.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:09.148)
I'm okay. Life is life right now, but you know.
Julian (00:12.961)
Well, hot, my God, it's oppressive.
Julian (00:21.536)
Yes.
Julian (00:28.276)
Mm-mm. Nope.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:32.11)
I'm going to try to not sweat through my shirt during the interview. Yeah. So we're so excited to have you on the show today. For those of you listening and watching, this is Professor Julian Womble. He, him, pronouns. You teach at George Washington University, political science. You're an assistant professor. And you also teach a class called Harry Potter and the politics of social identity, which is how I came across.
Julian (00:35.517)
Whatever it takes, honestly. Whatever it takes.
Julian (00:47.969)
us.
Julian (00:51.617)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00.909)
your content on social media. One, because first I thought it was fake. Like the videos of you teaching, I was like, oh, this is fun. Like, it's cute. Like, he's staging these conversations for people to get into. And then when I looked at your bio or when I started to really engage with your content a little bit more, was like, oh no, this is real. And then your series on if the Muggle Studies professor was really a muggle. Yeah.
Julian (01:00.98)
Yeah.
Julian (01:06.003)
You are not alone. Yeah.
Julian (01:12.51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julian (01:22.121)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julian (01:27.265)
Oh, it wasn't my fault.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:29.494)
is so funny, so funny. And so my friend Krishna and I, just like send each other your videos back and forth whenever we see them. So anyway, tell us a little bit more about yourself, outside of like what you do as a profession.
Julian (01:35.102)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julian (01:40.304)
I love it.
Julian (01:49.217)
Sure, I am, who am I outside of my profession? No, I am a big music enthusiast. Like I love music, I'm a big singer, so I love doing that. I obviously am a Harry Potter fanatic, which is becoming harder and harder to be as time marches on. I am,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:10.241)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (02:14.759)
Gemini, which actually is important and will be relevant for this conversation because my brain moves in a thousand different ways And so sometimes I have to control myself. And so that is relevant I Yeah, I'm to think of what else I think I you know have a podcast so Criticum critical magic theory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is a lot of fun what we do similar work to what I do in my class, but With a bit of a different approach
Taina Brown she/hers (02:18.761)
Mmm, okay. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:34.859)
Yeah, critical magic theory, right? Yeah.
Julian (02:44.833)
which is also ever evolving. And yeah, I feel like I just got tenure, like a couple of weeks ago. Thank you so much. And so now I'm trying to figure out what it is to not have to feel the constant pressure of having to produce. And so that's the new journey that I'm on, is figuring out what it means to have the kind of job security that is such a rarity in this time.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:55.028)
congrats!
Becky Mollenkamp (02:56.157)
Congratulations.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:03.958)
Mmm. Yeah. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:13.581)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're a Gemini, so our favorite anti-hero is also a Gemini, Traco Malfoy.
Julian (03:20.907)
You see? Yes, yes, yes. And it's so funny, I was doing something one day and I was like, I can't remember what, and then I discovered that Draco Moffat was a Gemini and I was like, it all makes sense now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:33.194)
Makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it all makes sense. Yeah. how, like, what prompted you to begin using Harry Potter as like a framework to teach this younger generation that you're in contact with, like on a daily basis about the politics of social identity?
Julian (03:44.577)
Sure.
Julian (03:49.171)
Yeah.
So I was, there was a point in my life where like every year I would listen to the series. And I was listening to, I think the last book in the series, Deathly Hollows. And I was at a friend's house and I was mowing the lawn because I was like, I need to get my steps in. So, and that's important because I'm not a lawnmower person, but I was like, I've got to exercise is what we're doing. And I was listening.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:18.688)
That's two birds with one stone. It's like getting your steps and doing a favor for a friend. I love that.
Julian (04:20.509)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And so I was listening to the books and I forget exactly what, what was going on, but I had this thought of like, if Voldemort was so pro purebloods, why not just like promote purebloods having more kids? Like that would ostensibly solve the problem of having these individuals, you know, like
dying out, which they are in the series, well, this would just solve the problem. And instead of focusing on a population that has nothing to do with growth in the pure blood circles, and then I thought, right, because it's actually not about being pro-pure blood. It's simply being anti-muggle born, right? This is simply about hate. And that this pro-dominant group ideology is actually just a cloak.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:59.308)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:09.197)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julian (05:18.081)
for anti-subjugated group sentiment. And so as a result, and so I was thinking about it and I was like, this is actually a really interesting way of thinking about this concept because when we think about things like white supremacy, people always, we do a thing where we kind of individualize it and we're like, a white supremacist is this person in a hood, in a cloak or in a polo shirt with khakis and a tiki torch, right? Like that's the vibe.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:38.955)
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
Julian (05:48.137)
and we don't necessarily see it as the system that it is. And I'm like, but Harry Potter actually offers us the ability to think through this in a really interesting way that isn't inherently like, it doesn't attack someone's sense of self. I think sometimes when you bring up, I teach mostly white kids. And so like when you bring up white supremacy to most white people, there's a high level of discomfort.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:10.987)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (06:16.68)
Yeah.
Julian (06:17.427)
And so it's like, yeah, but if I bring up pure blood supremacy, it's a completely different conversation, but it's the same conversation. And so it makes them feel, and so then they start critiquing it and they start seeing it in different ways. And so I started with that thought. And then someone on Twitter once was saying something about Hermione and how she needed to, know, how she was done dirty because of her advocacy for house elves.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:22.28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julian (06:46.727)
And I responded and was like, I think we need to take a closer look at this. Because I'm like, the thing is, is that Hermione had the right idea, but at no point did she ever actually speak to the people she was advocating for. Right? Like she went and talked to the house elves and was basically like, you're all dumb. You don't know what you're talking about. Like, I know what's best for you. And so here's what we need to do. And I thought, okay. And so I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:00.243)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:09.51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julian (07:13.823)
you know, there's a bit of like white saviorism in that. And also I'm like, I know she's a child. so, you know, but I'm also, but I also, tell my students all the time, you know, when we think about all of these community service trips and going abroad and doing all of this work, a lot of it can be couched in very similar terms to what Hermione is doing in that moment at that very same age. And so I thought to myself, I can teach this and this makes it
Taina Brown she/hers (07:34.878)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Julian (07:43.051)
so much easier for people to be open to receiving critique and giving critique without feeling it as a personal attack. And so that's kind of how it was born.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:54.369)
Wow, wow. So how much convincing did it take the university to let you teach this?
Julian (08:05.505)
So the beautiful thing about working at GW is that because political science is the number one major because everyone wants to work on the Hill, I didn't have to convince anyone. I just said, is what I'm teaching. And they were like, that sounds great. Let's go. And I didn't have to submit anything. There was no need for approval. because most of the time when it comes to needing to get approval at most schools, it's because they need to make sure your classes will fill.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15.762)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:34.216)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (08:34.849)
And but that's not a problem at GW because we have too many majors and so they know the classes will fill especially one that's like pop culture oriented and so it was never even a concern they never asked me anything and I I had someone come in and and Evaluate the class because when you go up for tenure, they have to look at your teaching and so I was like you'll come to this class and he Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (08:43.987)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:48.069)
Wow. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:59.594)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. They wanna see your pedagogy.
Julian (09:04.606)
And I had someone come to my other more substantive class. And then I was like, and they were like, well, we'll just come to that class again. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, this is actually a really important part of my pedagogy. And so I want you to come to this class. And he's like, I don't know anything about Harry Potter though. And I was like, that's fine. Don't worry about it. Yeah. And so it, and he was really shocked at kind of the conversations that we were able to have using Harry Potter as like a Trojan horse.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:21.364)
You don't need to.
Julian (09:34.369)
And so, yeah, it's been fun, but it was very easy process to get it approved.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:34.418)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:38.931)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:39.859)
That's awesome. before we go too far down the rabbit hole, speaking of not being a Harry Potter person, I'm just going to step up and say I'm not. Listen, I'm older than y'all. can tell because Harry Potter, when it really by the time it came out, I think I was maybe even into college, certainly into high school. And I was just didn't appeal to me because it felt like something kids read. But I am curious because you mentioned to like you teach a lot of white students, both of you are black, both of you into Harry Potter. I have since watched the movies with my child and.
Julian (09:47.051)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:55.56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:08.413)
Harry Potter is awfully white, right? The whole, like the main characters, everything. So I'm really kind of curious from both of you, but especially you, Julian, since you've gone on to teach it, you said you like reread it every year. As a black youth, like what, what was it about Harry Potter that appealed to you when it feels so white?
Taina Brown she/hers (10:10.462)
Yeah.
Julian (10:25.257)
Yeah, I think that like, it's funny, this is a caveat and I'll get to your question. I was presenting at Princeton not too long ago and one of the students brought up the idea of like, you know, the naming of some of these characters and how racially problematic they are, like Cho Chang and the Patil twins. And I said to him, I said, you don't understand. Like when those books came out, that was diversity. Like the fact that they were discernibly different,
characters of different ethnicities and races was like mind blowing at the time when these books came out. But for me, I never, I think it was because the bar was in hell. And so it was like, I never really was like, I'm looking for myself in this. It was like, at least not physically. And there are black characters, but I wasn't really pressed for them. It's like, who is it that I feel connected to?
more in terms of my personality, more in terms of where I'm at in my life at this current juncture. I was reading them when I was like, you know, 11, 10 and 11. And so it's like the notion of escaping, you know, life and just being able to like go to this magical school that's so much fun. Like that's the thing that appealed to me less so on racial grounds and more so just on experiential grounds. wasn't, and I think again, it's because when at that point,
I wasn't really conditioned to even understand the idea of representation being something. Like I grew up reading like the boxcar kids, these four white kids running around in a boxcar with a rich grandfather, I can't relate. But I loved the, I loved the stories, I loved the, just the mystery. And so I think, and I won't speak for everyone, but I think for many black children of that particular era, the early aughts, late nineties, we,
We knew we weren't gonna find ourselves physically, so we found ourselves in other ways, and I think that that's how I was able to reconcile Harry Potter.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:27.311)
Yeah, I didn't read the books. I think I was a little bit older also, probably like maybe ninth, tenth grade when they started coming out. But I've seen the movies, like they're always on TV. And I've just recently been really absorbed in fanfic. And so fanfic is my canon for Harry Potter. Like, you know, and I think what I love about just the world of Harry Potter is that
Julian (12:29.749)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (12:38.741)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (12:44.349)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:56.301)
some of the characters are incredibly complex, right? Like you're talking about children fighting in a war. it's the appeal of that is the same as like a show like Avatar, The Last Airbender, right? Where you have like these kids who are like having to grapple with these really big themes and make decisions for themselves and make sacrifices that really they're too young to make.
Julian (13:03.947)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (13:14.261)
Yeah.
Julian (13:24.277)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:25.551)
And honestly, like, you said the school is fun and it is fun, but it's also fucking dangerous. Like, all of those adults should be tried for, like, neglect and endangerment.
Julian (13:31.583)
Hello?
Julian (13:36.831)
Listen, and one of the things that I've realized the most as an adult now who spends a considerable amount of time just kind of analyzing this world is like, and I think this is also true for Avatar The Last Airbender, which is like how much the trauma of adults is imbued in the children without like intention, right? So like Harry Potter, there is a first wizarding war and the series begins like at the end of it, right? With Voldemort falling, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:54.848)
Yeah.
Julian (14:04.211)
all the adults lived through it. Like everyone who's in Harry's orbit has all lived through this kind of traumatic event and no one talks about it. And no one spends any time trying to deal with their own stuff. And what you realize is that so much of Harry's existence is him paying the price for his parents, like his father's sins, his mother's accomplishments, his mother's sacrifice, like so little of what Harry endures is anything of Harry's own doing. And I think that like,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:30.918)
Yeah.
Julian (14:32.608)
you know, there are so many ways that we can understand that. And I think it's the same thing in Avatar the Last Airbender when we think about Katara carrying the weight of an entire nation basically as the last waterbender in the Southern tribe and then having to go and take care of her silly brother and this child who's meant to, right, exactly. so this, but like,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:48.357)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:53.432)
older by the way.
Julian (14:58.643)
In both series, what we see is these children, not only like being adultified, but also carrying the weight of the trauma their parents did not ever deal with, either because their parents just didn't have the time, didn't have the desire, or aren't around.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:17.911)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know, like, we're speaking a lot of fandom language right now, I'm backing out. Like, are you zoning out?
Julian (15:24.459)
Sorry, y'all.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:26.04)
No, no, no. I'm well, I was also thinking about Hunger Games, which my kid has recently started to explore. And I'm just thinking about how much of these things are so clearly across all of this problem. I'm sure by design. But and I know I don't want to jump way ahead. But I also feel like for anyone listening, I feel like there's just a giant elephant in the room that I sort of like to get out of the way quickly instead of saving it, which is the deeply problematic author behind the series. Right. Yeah. And and how we reconcile those things because so I'm a parent.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:29.254)
you
Julian (15:29.459)
Yes, yes, another. Yeah.
Julian (15:45.515)
Sure.
Julian (15:48.991)
the JK rolling up at all. Yes, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:54.725)
of a child who's interested in these sorts of things. He's watched all the Harry Potter movies and started to read them. I think he's on the third or fourth book now. He's also starting to be interested in Hunger Games, but again, that's separate. But and I've talked to him about J.K. Rowling and some of her problematic beliefs and and, know, we have those discussions, but it is this really difficult thing. I mean, my kid also loves Michael Jackson. And, know, there are so many of these things where you have to separate the the the artist from the art and.
Julian (15:56.906)
Yeah.
Julian (16:00.627)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julian (16:14.707)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:22.555)
And I don't know how we always do that. And I wonder for you how you do it. And one other thing quickly, because when you were saying about the hate and or the the the folks who were hating, don't remember all the characters in Harry Potter, but like it wasn't so much about creating this new protecting the the group. It's about hate for the other group. And it made me think immediately of J.K. Rowling and her. She's protecting women by hating trans women. And it made me think what you're thinking about. Anyway, I'm just curious how you're dealing with the J.K. of it all.
Julian (16:38.474)
sure.
Julian (16:43.349)
Yeah.
Julian (16:46.837)
Yep. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, I think I'm not a firm believer if I'm a believer at all in separating the art from the artist. I because it's there. It's in the art. Right. Like in the books, there are ways that we see her gendered politic, the way in which I think is like a gateway into her transphobia. And so
For me, I recognize that there are many ways that people go about navigating this. I think the biggest one that we're hearing right now is just like, leave it all behind. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. And there are people for whom that has been their journey. I think that that's, and I think the only thing that is wrong is ignoring the truth of who she is and what exists in this world. For me, and I think for a lot of people for whom this world has been such
a safety place and a solace, it's a lot harder to like walk away from. And so for me, the reconciliation is really just tear it down because I think the books help us, they do an amazing job of helping us see the things that like we don't see in our own society, right? Like I could go through and point out
all of these like really bad problematic gendered ideas that are in these books that I never saw when I was reading them as a child and probably internalized and a lot of the trans there's and there is active like transphobic ideology in these books that is generally played for laughs that I think is like, right, we don't recognize it as such, right? There's a moment and what else is fascinating, right? Is that
a lot of that doesn't make it into the movies. So there was an intentionality done to remove some of these things from the movies that are in the text. And so my reconciliation is to, say at the beginning of every episode of Critical Magic Theory, loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. And I'm a firm believer in that particular thing because I think that, you know, it is so hard to get people to understand like,
Julian (19:12.637)
systemic inequality on every dimension that exists, whether it be white supremacy, patriarchy, transphobia, all the things. It's just really difficult for people because it can be very disempowering to realize that there's a systemic structure at work that's making it very difficult for you to live the life you want. And so as a teacher, as a person who friendly believes in trying to get us to see
systems of oppression operating, Harry Potter does it really, really, really well. It helps you do that because she wrote what she knew. She wrote what she believed. She wrote exactly the thing that she wanted us to walk away with. And so she didn't try to hide it, which I think, you know, there are a lot of people who say, well, there are other books that exist. And I'm like, 1000%. But like Hunger Games, for example.
Suzanne Collins is so intentional about the world she built. And she's very intentional about our understanding of the actual politics of the government, of the society, of the way that, you know, the systems of oppression operate. And so while, yes, we could use the text as a way to be able to have these conversations, there comes a moment where we would have to stop because she knew what she was doing and she did it on purpose. J.K. Rowling did not do it on purpose.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:37.135)
Interesting.
Julian (20:37.961)
And so because of that, just makes it easier. I think it's so important. think I really have been grappling with this, but I think it is so important because like we have to have systemic conversations, right? And I know that you all are having those conversations on this podcast and it's really, really hard to get people on board. And I think...
Taina Brown she/hers (20:40.29)
Yeah.
Julian (21:03.231)
you know, I think there I get messages, I get DMS, I get all kinds of things with people being like, talking about pure blood supremacist ideology. And I'm like, do you realize like how hard it is to get people to see structures of oppression this way? And, and part of the reason why I think it is so important is because yes, JK Rowling is awful and powerful and is using her power and her money and her influence to do horrendous things. And also is
a part of a much larger problem that is happening globally. And I think that one of the biggest, my biggest fear is that we would believe that if we somehow successfully cancel JK Rowling, it's all done. And that scares me because I'm like, and it's hilarious because it's also what happens in Harry Potter. Like Voldemort's gone. The first time, nothing changes.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:49.785)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:50.963)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:02.721)
Yeah.
Julian (22:03.263)
And then he comes back and they're like, how did this happen? And then nothing. And then at the end of the books, he goes and nothing changes. And it's like, right. Because and we lived it, right? Trump won 2016. 2020 comes, he's gone. We're good. He could never come back. And literally he does. And it's like, right, because the systems that undergird
Becky Mollenkamp (22:06.479)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:06.89)
I say, because nothing changed.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:28.502)
Yeah.
Julian (22:31.765)
these individuals still exist. And so I want us to hold those things in conversation, because I don't think it's bad that people are trying to cancel J.K. Rowling. I think it's amazing. And I want people to keep trying to do that while also recognizing that she is an important and dangerous part of a very, large and dangerous system.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:51.493)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:52.108)
Yeah, so good. Can I ask just one more thing about this piece? Just because I wonder with your students, you've been teaching this course for a while, I believe. Yeah. And so I feel like the JK Rowling stuff has gotten more intense in those years. Have you noticed a difference in the way your students engage with that part of this? has it become a bigger part of the dialogue in your classroom?
Julian (22:57.055)
Yeah. Yeah, since 2020.
Julian (23:06.144)
Yeah.
Julian (23:14.721)
I make it one. I mean, I have a whole section on the syllabus that's like, let's break down why we're still doing this. Because I could teach another class. And so I invite them to see it. And I'm very intentional about saying, do you see this moment here? Like that's her telling us something. And we need to listen to her. And I think, and it's because of that that I'm not a believer in
Taina Brown she/hers (23:34.25)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (23:43.869)
in divorcing the art from the artist because I think, you know, there are lots of ways that I, as a person who read these books at a very young age, had to really kind of recognize and reconcile, no, but what you believe is here. What you believe is here and so I'm working on a project, I hope, that will kind of...
Taina Brown she/hers (24:02.613)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (24:10.699)
help people unmask some of these things that are in the books. Because it's, I mean, I think it feels not realistic. And I know some people won't like this, but it feels not realistic to think that Harry Potter's gonna leave the zeitgeist anytime soon. I think they're coming out with a TV show, I know they're coming out with a TV show. It just exists in this space, and there are gonna be people who consume it. And it will either be because they don't care or because they just.
it's important to them and they want to and they just are reconciling it in their own way. And I want those people to have some sort of toolkit to be able to talk to their kids about it if that's what they wanna do or anyone. There are a lot of teachers who see the benefit of teaching these books because they have been shown to make kids more inclusive. And so I'm trying to work on something that I think will...
Taina Brown she/hers (24:38.901)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:57.301)
Yeah.
Julian (25:02.325)
give people the tools and the language to be able to break down some of this a little bit for the sake of really exposing what's in these books while also inviting us to think deeper about what it means for us.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:15.646)
Yeah, yeah, I love what you said about like, you know, her her ideology shows up in the books. And rather than just like not deal with it at all, which is what the characters do right, went in turn in the context of like Voldemort and the Wizarding Wars and all of that, like, let's use it as an instructional manual then. Right. And I think I hadn't thought about it.
Julian (25:32.171)
Right.
Julian (25:36.022)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (25:39.711)
Yeah. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:44.405)
this way before until you were just talking now, but separating the art from the artist is just another way that we compartmentalize people. And that doesn't just service, right? Like every time we compartmentalize or we fragment someone else, we're also doing that to ourselves, right? It's a mirror about, it's a projection about how we engage with the world around us. And...
Julian (25:51.743)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:11.692)
One of the things that like I've been coming to terms with lately and I feel like for my whole fucking life really is that like someone can be an incredibly horrible person and be good at what they do. Right? And for better or for worse, like J.K. Rowling created this universe that like you said is going to be a part of the zeitgeist for
Julian (26:27.168)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:41.36)
foreseeable future. And she wove this story together, right, that is engaging the characters. Some of the characters are complex, some of them aren't, right? Like she created this world that it's so easy for us to find ourselves in that we can't not acknowledge that when we talk about her, right? And I think that's the messy part that like a lot of people are like,
Julian (26:53.951)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (27:09.394)
my god, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:11.104)
Well, I don't want to acknowledge that she created this thing, this gift to the world, right? Because she's such a horrible person, right? And it just, makes me think back to like personal relationships that we might have, right? Where we're just like, whether it's with parents or friends or ex lovers, whatever, where we're just like, no, you are a completely horrible person. Well, that's, that's never really true, you know, like.
Julian (27:18.998)
Yeah.
Julian (27:26.389)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:39.635)
there could be instances in that relationship where there were moments of joy, were moments of pleasure, there were moments of love and happiness that doesn't negate the fact that there were also moments of pain and suffering and harm and oppression and whatnot. And so I wanted to ask, how quickly does your class fill up?
Julian (27:52.703)
Right. Yeah.
Julian (28:01.205)
Oof, it's fast. It's a very, it's small. I only have 14 students. Yeah, it's very, very small. And so it gets filled very fast. And as time has gone on and word has spread about the course, it has really become like an intense, when I tell you,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:07.176)
my God, wow.
Julian (28:26.921)
And I say this not to be like, my God, I'm just like the best, but really because it's one of those things where like I get these emails from people giving me their like Harry Potter resumes to try and like convince me to put them in the class because they haven't been able to get in. And it's very constrained because you have to be a major, you have to have done all these prerequisites, you have to, and so it's...
already difficult to get in and then because of the topic and because of its growing popularity, it's become even more difficult. so, but what's great for me is that I'm not in charge of letting students in my class. Like we have someone else, there's another person who that's their job. And I'm so grateful. I couldn't be happier. I couldn't be happier.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:09.705)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:11.283)
I heard you saying something about creating some guides or something, right? And because if it's that popular, which I'm not surprised by, and these books are that and movies are that pervasive and so many parents like myself, I think are grappling with these issues around how do I manage this with my kids? What do I do here? I don't want to say, no, you can't read these things that your friends are reading. And I want them to understand these bigger issues. And I may feel ill equipped to just
Julian (29:18.005)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (29:27.477)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (29:36.437)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:40.711)
to do that. Are you like creating things for folks like that and or for high schools or even elementary schools that want to tackle these books in this way?
Julian (29:50.113)
So I was approached to like come up with an idea for an oppressed to like give them something to work with on Harry Potter. And this is what I'm kind of conceptualizing, thinking that like, you know, it like, it would be kind of like a, in my head, it's like a guide for like a conscientious Harry Potter consumer. For someone who is either in the position that you're in, Becky, or
it's just, a lot of the listeners to my podcast are like this text saved my life and I can't, it, it feels very difficult for me to walk away from it. And so, but I also want to be like intentional about how I do this. And so that's what I'm hoping it will be used for, assuming the press likes the idea.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:27.443)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:48.797)
hope so.
Julian (30:49.345)
Me too. think it would be, I think it feels important now to do that. And I think I really have been working hard to figure out the language to explain why it is that I do what I do and why I'm not.
going to just stop because I think that is a recourse that I could take just like, yeah, okay. But it's like, it doesn't even begin to address the issues at work here. And again, I think, you know, one of the backhanded blessings of the text is that,
it is something that people can easily relate to because the world is just like ours, just with magic. And so I don't have to draw a massive bridge to get people to see it. And that is great. And so that is my goal. My goal is to try to create a resource for people to be able to go in and say, okay, this is what my kid asked about, like Hermione and the House Elves.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:40.542)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (32:03.273)
and I want to have like a chapter that would be just kind of me going through and kind of breaking down like, okay, what do you do when your kid asks about enslaved creatures that are happy to be enslaved? How do we reconcile that which is coming up in the fourth book, Becky. So you've got a little time.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:21.395)
Well, even more for me, it's like if my kid doesn't ask these things, I don't want it to be the kinds of things like you mentioned earlier, reading these in your youth where that seeps in and you start it starts to become like form some of the ways that we see the world. And I would like to able to be that person if I'm going to. I want my son to be able to have access to these books. He's we've watched the movie, so I'm not opposed, but I do feel like I'm failing him. I'm falling short by not being able to.
Julian (32:28.991)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julian (32:35.84)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:48.295)
help him think about these things, contextualize in the way that you have been offering. Because when I hear you talk about it, I'm like, like light bulbs are going off for me just from what I've seen in the movies of like, yeah. But I don't think, you know, I like to think I'm smart, but I guess I'm not that smart because honestly, when I watch them, that stuff's not triggering for me. I'm not going like, this speaks to this, to this. I'm just kind of escaping too. And I want to able to be that way with my kid to help him with.
Julian (32:48.48)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:51.083)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (32:51.19)
Yeah.
Julian (32:58.442)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:01.545)
you
Julian (33:09.353)
Yeah. And I think that there are a lot of people, and this is a critique that I get often, which is like, why are you even going through all this thought? Just, like, it's a kid's book. And I'm like, and it took me a little while to figure out, and I'm like, but this is, this is my love language. Like, overthinking is the thing that I do really well. And I'd much rather do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:34.205)
Thank
Julian (33:35.883)
for this for a good reason than like overthink a conversation I had with some random person 10 years ago where I think I look stupid and I'm driving like, like I would much rather use my brain power for something that's productive as opposed to self destructive. And so yeah, so you've, Becky, thank you because now I feel very like validated in my desire to do this thing. And, and I think, I think it is important because
Taina Brown she/hers (33:42.397)
and
Taina Brown she/hers (33:46.973)
Yeah.
Julian (34:05.973)
like people are still running around talking about like I'm in, know, Gryffindor or whatever. And like, I think, like, I don't think this is going anywhere anytime soon, much to the chagrin of many people. And I think about it a lot and it feels somewhat hyperbolic, but like, for some people, Harry Potter is a religion. Like it's how they've structured their lives. And in the same way that a lot of theological scholars,
who are grappling with a lot of the misogyny, homophobia, that exist in religious texts broadly construed. And I've had to figure out ways to help people who are like, I am maybe a member of any one of these communities who feels attacked by this text. And there are scholars out there who have helped them reconcile their identities with these texts. And that are problematic.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:40.252)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (35:02.665)
and hold, and that there are people who have taken the time and the brain power and the willingness to sit down and say, here's how we can do this. And I feel like if we had that for not only just Harry Potter, but for a lot of books that were written by problematic people or who that, you know, promote problematic views, I think people would be better for it. And so in my head, that's kind of what I think all the work that I do is kind of doing.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:02.833)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:24.443)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (35:31.905)
because there are people who just, who can't let go of this world and I get it. And there are lots of people who don't get it. And honestly, that's not their business. But I do want people to feel like they have a way to do this and can still hold the author accountable at the same time. Because I think that that's really, really important.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:51.195)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:54.995)
It just makes me think, because last year I read James by Percival Everett and it felt like a, it just felt like such a beautiful response of helping to call attention to all the ways that Mark Twain's books were deeply problematic and fell short and all of that. And it was such an interesting way to do it. I'm guessing maybe Tain, is that what the fanfic does for you? Like, do you read into that fanfic too, Julie? Does it right some of those wrongs? Because I'm like, they need to teach those books. If they're going to continue to teach Mark
Julian (35:59.679)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (36:17.887)
Oof. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:24.467)
I feel like that James needs to be taught side by side to offer that more contextualized robust discussion. So I don't know if you if the fanfic is doing that or if we're just waiting for this stuff to go into the public sphere. When else can?
Julian (36:29.525)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:36.071)
Yeah, I feel like it does do that for me. It's like, it's... I saw something on, I don't remember if it was like TikTok or Instagram. It was on social media and it was...
something that somebody had posted on Tumblr, it was like a screenshot of Tumblr and it was talking about how the subversiveness of fan fiction, where it's an opportunity for marginalized people to take these worlds, these universes that are typically built by people who have privilege and turn them into whatever they want, right? And so it...
I like the complexity of it. I honestly, some of the fanfics that I have read are some of the best pieces of literary work I have ever in my life read as a 43 year old person. Like these people need publishing contracts, like they need something. Like I want to throw money at them because it's so good. But I also, I realized about like three or four fanfics in.
Julian (37:27.189)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:44.684)
And just to be clear, I just got into fanfic in February and I'm like 50 fanfics down. And so I'm just like, it's an addiction, it's a problem. But I realized about three or four fanfics in that like the ones that I read are mostly Jermaini. So that's pairing up Draco and Hermione as love interests. It's a lot of enemies to lovers, enemies to friends to lovers, forced proximity, marriage law.
Julian (37:51.677)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julian (38:02.879)
Okay, I was gonna ask.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:13.624)
that kind of thing. And so I realized early on that like one of the reasons why it resonates so deeply with me, especially that particular pairing or just Draco's, the way that he's written by fans so much is because I relate to Draco. Like I grew up in a very evangelical bubble.
Julian (38:35.873)
Mmm.
Julian (38:41.301)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:42.103)
And so this, a lot of the fan fakes about Draco, there's a lot of redemption, there's a lot of change in his attitudes and his beliefs. And so about pureblood supremacy and what that means and like who has a right to live and who doesn't have a right to live and things like that. And so I see a lot of myself in his story, no matter who's writing it.
And then the other thing is also I'm a Pisces moon. I love a tragic story like antihero like give me all the yearning all the angst all the emo like and so a lot of there's a lot of pining in fanfic and so I I definitely relate to that. Is it the same for you Julian?
Julian (39:28.679)
I love fanfic because I think it is such a clear indication of like despite how problematic and dangerous JK Rowling is, the text that she created really shaped a beautiful, beautiful generation of people who said, here are all the deficiencies here. Here are the ways that I don't see myself represented. Watch me work.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:55.15)
Mmm.
Julian (39:55.399)
And instead of just being mad and being like, well, she should have written this. It's like, I'll write it. I will write the story that I believe I will make, you know, because another one of my favorite pairings is Drury. That's Draco and Harry, which amazing. I will make characters that should have been queer based on the canon. I'll make them. I'll make them queer. I will. I will take characters and give them backstories. I will do all the things that you either didn't do.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:08.857)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (40:24.053)
because you didn't want to or you couldn't because of whatever, I will do that. And I will do it in a way that is inclusive. I will do it in a way that is honest. I will do it in a way that seeks to rectify all the ills of this text that we are able to recognize. And I think like it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing and a testament to what the series means and also offers in terms of lessons that people could read these books and say,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:27.822)
Yeah.
Julian (40:54.077)
I love this world so much that I'm gonna fix it. And that, like, I won't credit JK Rowling with any of that. I think that that's, that to me feels like such, it's just the people who were attracted to this world came together and said, we got it, and did a beautiful, beautiful thing with it. And I think, and so I love fanfic for that.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:56.717)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:02.176)
No, absolutely not.
Julian (41:21.473)
I also I'm a big fan of enemies to lovers. I have read most of the big like fanfics that are the Jermainy ones. Some of them are a little bit boring to me because I'm not a piney girly. I can't do it. I need a plot. If I have to sit and listen to Draco like wax poetic about like how he doesn't deserve to be I can't do it for too long. Like give me a little bit.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:34.104)
You don't want that internal dialogue?
Julian (41:49.021)
One of my favorites is the Disappearances of Draco Malfoy. It's such a good one, but also, I know. And so like, just, I was erect the most of it. And so I love it when like we are able to take these characters and rewrite narratives that make sense, that are beautifully written, and that just, I don't know, like it's more than just fan service. It's a complete kind of rehaul in a way.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:52.436)
my god, I love that one. It's so, that, that Ask A Volunteen fucking wrecked me.
Julian (42:17.695)
And I just think that level of creativity, like you were saying, Tayina, like some of these pieces are unbelievable. Like Manicold, I have never in my life been so wrecked by a text. And I've never experienced anything like it in my life.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:43.731)
Yeah. Do you integrate any of that into your curriculum with your students?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:43.905)
Yeah.
Julian (42:47.879)
Sometimes I'll bring it up because most of my students have at least read the books once and then have all gone into become fanfic girlies. And so I'll bring up some of the fanfics because I also do think that what I like about it is that they also offer us perspectives maybe on characters that we don't know a lot about or ways to think about like, know, certain issues in the books.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:58.764)
you
Julian (43:15.969)
And so I will bring them up on occasion or just to be chaotic because again, I'm a Gemini and so every once in a while I'll be like, you know different yeah, I'm like if Hermione was a Slytherin she'd be just like Voldemort and There's an entire body of war. There's a ship. That's Tom. I need so it's like Tom Riddle and Hermione and I'm like, yeah, and it makes sense because they are not that different of people and
Taina Brown she/hers (43:24.765)
Let's get messy.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:35.681)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:43.073)
Yeah.
Julian (43:44.413)
if Hermione had never met Ron and Harry, she absolutely would have been easily turned into an evil person because we're talking about a girl, they did not put this in the movies. the Hermione revisionist history that happened in the movies is a wild time because Hermione, she's...
Taina Brown she/hers (43:53.687)
She's wild in the books. I haven't read all the books, but some of the things that she does is like, yeah.
Julian (44:09.921)
she's out of control. Like she put a woman in a jar and then charmed the jar so that if she tried to become back into human form, it would kill her because the jar couldn't break. She, for months, she kept her there and then out of sheer revenge. And so Hermione is a character that I use a lot in my class to talk about a lot of JK Rowling's gendered politics because...
Taina Brown she/hers (44:25.825)
for months.
Julian (44:37.419)
JK Rowling is like, she is my self insert. And I'm like, right. And Hermione really only ever has smoke for other girls and other women in the books. So she only really leverages critiques against like really girly girls. She punches Draco Malfoy in the face one time, but most of the other heat and like all of the other angst and anger is really reserved for girls. She doesn't have any girlfriends. People get mad at me about this, but I'm like, Jinny doesn't count.
because she's Hermione's best friend's little sister and not Hermione's friend. And I think that there's a meaningful distinction there. But like she has no friends that are girls. you know, waits on Ron and Harry hand and foot. Like, and I think a lot of particularly, there are a lot of people who have a strong affinity for Hermione because she's super smart and kind of awkward. And so all of us nerdy people were like, that's our girl. But when you look at her,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:10.301)
mm-hmm. yeah. yeah. yeah.
Julian (45:37.545)
And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like there's something not all the way right. And I think, you know, on my podcast, what we do is we look at characters specifically, and there's a character, Lavender Brown, who ultimately becomes Ron's love interest and the fandom hates her. Hates her. And one of the questions I always ask is, or one of the questions I asked for her particular episode was why is it that we don't like Lavender Brown? And people wrote, because she's not Hermione.
And I thought, right, so we are literally invited by the author to dislike this girl because she had a crush on the person we thought her mind needed to be with. And we as readers are totally okay with that. Like, that's the thing that I think I sometimes, like these books invite us to do is like to be really antagonistic, particularly towards women in ways that I find.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:34.453)
Yeah. She's like silly.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:35.207)
I wonder if her name, do you, I'm just so curious too. she, was she designed to be somebody that people wouldn't like? Is that kind of what JK introduced her as? Because the name is very interesting with the lavender, the associations with the lesbian movement of the seventies and everything. I don't know, I'm just curious.
Julian (46:50.983)
interesting. Yeah, no, I think she is introduced to us to be someone who is not liked because she is like very girly and she giggles a lot and she's like likes, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's just your silly teenage girl. She likes all the things that Hermione doesn't like. She likes, she's just the anti-Hermione. And then she gets the guy and everyone...
has such strong feelings about her for just being this teenage girl who's 16 years old and liking this dude who's kind of trash.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:24.873)
Yeah. Yeah, she's a pick me. She's a pick me.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:28.167)
feels like if Hermione is supposed to be JK and she's the, I'm just like the guys kind of girl that we all know now. And then her foil, the person we're supposed to not like because we're supposed to pick me is Lavender, which is like was this movement of trying to be more inclusive around feminism. It's just, that's interesting. don't know. Like fascinating.
Julian (47:33.843)
Yeah, exactly. That she picked me. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:50.025)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julian (47:50.045)
Yeah, I, I, there are a lot of ways I could probably teach an entire class just going through each of the books and just looking at her how Hermione treats girls and teach a whole class on it. And what that would tell us about JK Rowling's politics. Because it's, and it's really there that I think we learn a lot and see a lot. And so,
Taina Brown she/hers (48:03.381)
Hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:09.065)
Yeah.
Julian (48:20.349)
Yeah, I think it's very fascinating as well because you know, lot of people, a lot of women of color, particularly black women see, you know, are like, well, Hermione is a black woman. And I'm like, bushy hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:34.441)
what she's described as having olive-toed skin and bushy, frizzy hair, which I think the description of her bushy, frizzy hair is a little bit of anti-Blackness happening there, or some kind of white supremacist. You should have thin, straight hair all the time.
Julian (48:46.985)
Well, yeah.
Julian (48:56.105)
And then she, well, and it's like, but there are certain aspects. And it was interesting in the episode on Lavender, I had a woman on, she's a white woman, and that's relevant to this conversation because she was saying, you know, I think Lavender is just like a girl. And in the movies, the original Lavender Brown was black. So in the third movie, she was black. By the time we get to the sixth movie, she's now a white blonde girl.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:14.709)
Mmm.
Julian (49:21.683)
And so we had a conversation about what that change would have looked like and what would it have been different if Lavender had stayed black. And I'm like, yes, because there is no portrayal of black girls as being young and giggly and silly. you know, that just isn't a thing that exists in like the global culture. And so if the character is written the way that she is written, she is written as a white girl.
Like that's just how she is written. And I think, you know, there are lots of ways that, again, a lot of people have been upset recently because they cast a black person to play Snape in the TV series. And a lot of people are like, well, you know, he's white. And I'm like, no character in these books is described as white. Not. They're not real, know, people are.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:51.508)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:12.051)
And even if they are, they're not real.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:13.896)
You're right.
But you know, people get attached.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:18.163)
I know, it's the little mermaid all over again.
Julian (50:20.029)
No, it really is. And so people are like losing it. And I'm like, no one is described as white. She tells us which characters are black. And then she racially codes the names of the certain other characters to make us make it clear that they're Southeast Asian or that they're East Asian or, you know, whatever. But, you know, for some of these characters, I'm like, you're assuming because whiteness is the default that they are white. And
nothing in their storyline means that they have to be white, but lavender? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Unless we want to break norms, which I'm all about, but like you giving me a black girl lavender brown, it would be something else because we don't, that's just not the way that we see young black girls portrayed. I wish it was. I wish we got to see like a silly like little, you know, just kind of living our life, having a good time.
black girl running around, but that's just not a thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:19.024)
Yeah, yeah, I want to say really quickly two things because you mentioned the disappearances of Draco Malfoy and so for anyone listening or watching the disappearances of Draco Malfoy is a Deathly Hallows rewrite where Draco goes on the Horcrux hunt with the Golden Trio and and so you see the characters like some of the some of the plot points are the same some of them are different and so
Julian (51:31.371)
rewrite. Yep.
Julian (51:37.494)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:45.905)
Draco's redemption happens through the Horcrux Hunt and it's so, it's so well done. It's so well done. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of my favorites.
Julian (51:51.273)
It's the best one. It's the best one as far as I'm concerned. The one, the thing that I always feel about Draco is that sometimes in fanfic, the girlies absolve him too soon. And the thing about Draco in fanfic, and I tell my students this all the time, is I'm like, he's such a plot device because society tells women and men attracted people broadly construed, like fix them. And there's an, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:17.041)
Yeah, but daddy I can fix it!
Julian (52:19.613)
Exactly, and that there is this allure, this kind of allure of being the one to fix him, to get him to be, you know, he's got problems, but like nothing I can't solve. And for me, I'm like, that fool better figure out how to get himself together on his own and not, because I'm like, because the burden falls to Hermione and a lot of these fix to have to repair this man.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:40.083)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:44.413)
Yeah.
Julian (52:47.657)
And I'm like, right, which is art imitating life. And also, again, encouraging, I mean, and even in the canonical text, like Hermione is expected to be the one to kind of like guide Ron and guide Harry. And so it's a lot of traditionally understood gendered roles about boys will be boys. And in order for boys to be men, there needs to be someone else, generally a woman, coming in and.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:56.243)
The emotional labor, yeah.
Julian (53:14.155)
doing all the emotional labor to clean them up. And what I love about Disappearances of Draco Malfoy is that that's not the case. That he has to do it on his own. He figures it all out by himself. He has to navigate that in such a specific way that I think, I'm like, this is the kind of redemption that I want. I don't want his redemption to be contingent upon the work of a woman or girl to have to come in and be like, well, let's look better. And like, why don't you think about it this way? girl, no, you go sit down, rest, have a drink.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:19.674)
Yeah, he does it on his own.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:43.496)
Yeah.
Julian (53:43.605)
This fool needs to figure this out himself. And I think JK Ruling is so like, I'll say this and then I'll shut up, I promise. But one of the things that really pisses me off in these books is that all of these women get no backstory. We don't know anything about them. But every man, every man has a redemption arc if you want it. Voldemort has one. his mom, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:52.834)
Hahaha
Julian (54:09.709)
you know, assaulted his dad and then he was born without love. Draco, his parents, you know, mistreated him and he was raised to be, you know, a supremacist. Snape was brought up in an abusive household and so now he, like all of these men, he lost his love and every, and so every single problematic man in these books, and there are a bunch of them, most of them, we can, we have a narrative that explains why they're a problem. None of the women, not a single, Bellatrix, we don't know. Umbridge, we don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:21.51)
And he lost his love, yeah.
Julian (54:39.423)
Rita Skeeter couldn't tell you. Like none of the women get that treatment. And I'm like, that's intentional. And it just reifies this idea that like, you need to know why men behave the way that they do so that you can forgive them easier, but you don't need to forgive women. They can figure it out themselves. And that drives me freaking nuts.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:45.361)
And it just reifies this idea that like.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:58.675)
And it just feels like that's so much of what we see with her showing up now, too. Like, you're right. It's it explains a lot. And honestly, you have me like, I don't I've never had an interest in reading the books because one, like I'm a grown up now and they feel like kids books and two, I hate her. So why would I start now? But like, I want to take your course. Like you have me linking like I am super interested. Right. I've been through the podcast, I guess, but I'm super interested.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:04.816)
Yeah.
Julian (55:05.088)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:21.573)
Can I audit? Do I need to become a student again?
Julian (55:23.933)
Listen, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:28.187)
And like maybe exploring them myself and not just as a parent, thinking like that piece of saying, can I take something that exists and bring that critical lens to it? I just think sounds really interesting. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:40.655)
Yeah, yeah. you can be, go ahead. Now was gonna say you can be critical of something and still enjoy it, right? And I think that's what a lot of people, or well, and I include myself in this, is like we sometimes forget, you know, it's like, well, if I'm gonna be critical of something, then, you know, I'm gonna be a hater the whole time, you know? And it's like, no, I could be a hater, but still laugh when someone makes a funny joke, you know? Like it can still be.
Julian (55:40.777)
Yeah, it's fun and you can, good, I'm sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:46.652)
No.
Julian (55:58.205)
Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:06.971)
partly entertaining for me. The other thing I was gonna say, or actually there were two more things. You said, you used the phrase fangirlies. And I just wanna make it clear that fangirlies is gender neutral.
Julian (56:13.814)
Yeah.
Julian (56:17.375)
gender neutral. thing I am one. Like I want to be very clear. I am a cis man and I am a fangirly. I use the term girlie to as a broadly gender inclusive, gender expression inclusive term. Yes. Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:26.49)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fangirlies is definitely a gender neutral thing. It's it's fandom culture. And then the other thing was I'm not really into like the dreary fix. I have a best friend who that's all she reads, but I did read one recently where it was all queer pairings and it was during Pride month. And when I realized what was happening, I was like, it just...
Julian (56:35.071)
Yeah.
Julian (56:42.805)
Yes.
Julian (56:46.517)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:53.328)
It was really short, it only six chapters and I, it just, I feel like it just healed something in me to like engage with that text during Pride Month. And I was just like, oh my God, I'm so glad I came across this, especially right now when the world just is a dumpster fire and everything queer is getting erased.
Julian (57:00.907)
Yeah?
Julian (57:21.707)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:22.788)
there's this safety in the fandom to still be able to engage with these kinds of things.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:29.22)
No, before you go, see you looking at the clock. can just tell you're about to be like, we got to go. No, because I have one more thing I want to know, which is you mentioned at the beginning, Julian, that you're a Gemini and my son is a Gemini and I'm learning a lot about Geminis. And I'm curious because you said that's important and that may come up. So tell me why it's important and what I need to think about with my kid being a Gemini interacting with this.
Julian (57:38.441)
Yes. Yes.
Julian (57:46.625)
Sure, sure. think about this a lot now because I think that one of the biggest tropes about Geminis is that we're very two-faced and kind of, you but I think it's mostly just very mercurial. Like, I feel like our brains move very fast. And so it's not like an emotional, like, I'm fake. It's like, I was there and now I'm here. And sometimes, like, other people will notice it well before I do. Like, you know, I'll be at a restaurant and someone, and I'll say something to the waiter.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:06.33)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (58:16.383)
and I'll be smiling and then as soon as this is over, it's like, okay, now I'm back to this. And they're like, you're so fake. And I'm like, no, that interaction is done. So now I'm back to this one. And I'm, so it's not even that I was being disingenuous. I wasn't, I was, I'm just, I moved very quickly and the shift might've been jarring to you, but my brain doesn't operate that way. And so I think that like, you know, I'm also a person who I have to have things that keep my attention, which is why certain fanfics can't, don't work for me. Like I need,
Taina Brown she/hers (58:24.368)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (58:46.089)
I love Disappearances of Draco Malfoy because it's plot driven. Like there's actual adventure, there's things going on. There's another fanfic called Remain Nameless that the girls love. I can't do it because it's so slow. There's really no plot in so far that it's just like Draco and Hermione getting together being like, I can't do that. Like my brain needs to be firing at all cylinders in order to like keep me locked in. What else? I think that like Geminize, I think we're always looking for things that stimulate.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:55.361)
It's very slow.
Julian (59:14.613)
So it's like, as long as you are able to kind of keep us stimulated or we're able to keep ourselves stimulated, like that is the way to kind of keep us locked into something. Which means that sometimes, like for the longest time, I wasn't very good at finishing things because once I like was over it, I was over it. In the same way that like that part of that conversation with the server was over and now I'm back like that. And so it's taken me a very long time to realize a lot of those things.
And sometimes my brain moves much faster than my mouth and I will have to like catch up sometimes. Or I'll say something like very snide and sarcastic very quickly before I can process it and not say it. And so sometimes, but I think, I, you know, I think there's a, I think the beautiful thing about the Geminis that I know is that, you know, we, I'm,
Taina Brown she/hers (59:50.991)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:00.221)
Yeah
Julian (01:00:13.277)
an introvert, but when I'm not, I'm not. And I think that there's a way that Geminis are very good at being in any space. Like I, you can draw me anywhere. I will either make a friend or like entertain myself enough to be fine. Like I never worry about like being out by myself. I'm always like, yeah, whatever. I went on vacation a few weeks ago by myself and was just, and got invited to some random people's wedding.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:43.443)
That sounds a lot like my kid. Yeah. And I think that's also the problem he had with Harry Potter. He sort of has stalled out in the third book. And I think it is a little bit of that. Like, kind of I've seen the movies. I've read enough of this now. I've kind of got it. I'm getting a little bored and I'm hoping he'll return at some point so we can have more of these conversations.
Julian (01:00:43.967)
because that's just like the thing. Yeah. And so like.
Julian (01:00:54.858)
Yeah.
Julian (01:00:59.795)
Yeah, because the fourth book is where it all gets real. That's where I start my class. I start my class at book four, because that's when we start to get into kind of more of the adult ish themes. And that's when things start to come together. And so I definitely encourage like, if that's the thing that he wants to do to like, just get through the through the, yeah, at four. And then because that's when it all kind of goes, gets pretty intense and fun. But yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:03.558)
really? Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:18.963)
Maybe we just need to them at four.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:28.775)
Yeah, the movies definitely got better, I think, as they went on too.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:31.114)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, last last question. Well, that's two questions real quick. Just fun questions. Top three, your top three favorite fanfics and for someone who is interested in getting into a fanfic who has no idea about that world, like what would be the first fanfic that you would recommend to them?
Julian (01:01:31.209)
Yes, for sure. For sure.
Julian (01:01:36.395)
Sure. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:53.427)
Can we also ask your favorite of the Harry Potter books? Just for, okay.
Julian (01:01:56.129)
Sure. Yeah, yeah, okay. So my favorite Harry Potter book is Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince because I think it's one of the few books that we ever get where we really understand the psychosis of a villain. So we learn all about Voldemort in that book. And it's unbelievable just because by the time we then get to the last book, we have a very clear understanding of who this person is and why he's...
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:56.942)
yeah, yeah, for sure.
Julian (01:02:24.873)
the mess that he is. And so I love that. Top three fix. Disappearances of Draco Malfoy, Manicold, and there's one called Bloody Sleazy Empathetic. That's also very good. It is, and it is. Yes, I know. I'm like.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:42.769)
great name.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:45.13)
It's so good. It's oof, oof, so good.
Julian (01:02:49.087)
Yeah, I read fanfics of a very particular rating because like I'm grown. But yeah, no. And if I had to think of a fic that I think would really, honestly, and I don't say just because I love it, I think Disappearances of Draco Malfoy is such a good gateway because it's taking a world and characters and a plot that you already know. So it's not so much of a departure from, especially in the beginning.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03:13.197)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03:17.677)
Yeah.
Julian (01:03:17.825)
of like the world because some of the fanfics are great, but they're like all in like alternative universes are doing. And so it's kind of difficult for you to kind of ground yourself. I found that when I read Manicold, I was like, this doesn't feel like the world that I know. And it took me a little what time, but Disappearance of Draco Malfoy feels just like an expansion of the world. I also would recommend, okay, and it's not finished yet, but and this is this is not like a entry level one, but it's called
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03:31.201)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03:36.619)
Yeah.
Julian (01:03:46.643)
Let the Dark In, and it's by the author of Manicold. And it is, I love a dark Hermione, and basically the plot is Voldemort never existed. And so, what, and so, okay, I'm sorry, this is one those Gemini moments. Voldemort never existed, and so the world operates as if he never came in and forced them to change in many different ways.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03:56.138)
Mm-hmm.
Julian (01:04:15.881)
And so it basically takes the plot of the fourth book, takes it to the sixth book or sixth year. And Hermione becomes the champion instead of Harry. Draco is somewhere else. He's at Durmstrang and comes in. So he's a Durmstrang champion and a bunch of madness ensues because they make a deal because she wants to learn certain kinds of magic from him.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:04:29.357)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:04:41.452)
What?! Those are really high stakes!
Julian (01:04:42.689)
Because she needs it in order to be able to like succeed and he wants her to disappear so they make a deal that whoever wins the tournament or whoever like whoever wins the deal either has to force he either has a forsake his family or she has to leave the magical world all together and all kinds of stuff happens now The stakes are high the writing is unbelievable the magic like yes, the magic world-building is like
Taina Brown she/hers (01:05:06.924)
I mean, it's similar to you, right?
Julian (01:05:12.435)
insane. But it is important to say again, it is a work in progress. It is not finished and Sinlin Yu is about to have another book that comes out that's basically manacled with a different plot. And so, right. And so the likelihood that that that the Let the Dark In is going to be finished anytime soon is not very high. But it is still worth it because it is. it's so good. It's so good. Do it, do it, do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:05:13.194)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:05:22.218)
Yeah, I pre-ordered mine already.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:05:35.308)
Okay, I'm gonna have to add it to my TBR. And for anyone who's unfamiliar, Durmstring is like a wizarding school in like, I think the Russia area, the Russian continent, where they practice, they do practice a lot of dark magic. So yeah, that's interesting. Okay, I'm gonna have to add that to my TBR. Thank you. Thank you for those, Rex. And thank you for joining us today. This was such a good conversation.
Julian (01:05:41.759)
Yes.
Yeah, it's in this because yeah.
Dark Arts, yeah, yeah.
do it. Yeah, absolutely. this was a blast. Thank you so much for having me.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:06:02.693)
And even as a non Harry Potter person, I'm not a fangirlie. I really appreciated it. So thank you.
Julian (01:06:06.069)
You see? That's amazing. I'm so glad to hear that.