Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We are Alyssa and Bri, two sisters who believe God wants more for women than we've been taught. Join us as we dive into the intersection of faith and feminism, learning together as we go.
To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
Speaker 1:And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
Speaker 2:What if we had an an additional
Speaker 1:intro song? That's actually gonna be particularly confusing because the intro song is gonna be playing while you do that. Oftentimes, I just hit play, and you never know what's about to happen. You don't. We don't know what we're gonna talk about in the beginning.
Speaker 1:I don't know what sounds are gonna come out
Speaker 2:of her mouth. I feel like that's a what do they call it? A cold open? Here we are, and we're cold. We're really cold.
Speaker 2:That's cold here in Michigan. What is it? Like, negative a million Fahrenheit?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's what I heard. It's quite cold. It's that do you remember that movie The Day After Tomorrow? Was that it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Where New York City got frozen over. I just really distinctly remember them running into the library as, like, the ice is coming after them pretty much.
Speaker 2:Our family went through phases where we watched particular movies over and over and over. And it was, like, The Day After Tomorrow. And at one point, it was the shaggy dog with Tim Allen. Oh, yeah. Like, one of his weird one offs, like, probably a Disney channel original.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And, like, facing the giants.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. That was a rough phase. I don't know. Yeah. We watched that one a lot.
Speaker 1:But I remember specifically because they were in the library, and it's supposed to be this tragic moment. Right? They're all stuck in the library. The doors freeze shut. They don't have supplies.
Speaker 1:And I just kept thinking, man, I'd love to be frozen in a library.
Speaker 2:I was not at a point in my life where I was reading. Like, I could read. It's not reading for fun. So
Speaker 1:life in a library would be like a living hell for me. I would that's my ideal situation. And it's this beautiful library. I don't know if it's a real one. I assume it is, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:But it's like a beauty and the beast style library. That's a good one. And that's all I need in life.
Speaker 2:Although you're probably not finding the kind of books that we're reading at that library. There's no romantasy there. That's all research.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That wouldn't be so fun.
Speaker 2:Non fiction found in human skin.
Speaker 1:No. That's Harvard.
Speaker 2:Hey. You can have books found in human skin anywhere. Watched a film
Speaker 1:documentary on that once. There are quite a few books. It was a common thing at one time. And do you know those books have age spots on them? That's disgusting.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:And you can see the hair follicle things and stuff. I think you should be bound into a book.
Speaker 1:I should. I'll put that in my will.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There's enough of you. You could do two books.
Speaker 1:I'm very, very short though, so probably not more than two. Yeah. It's really the limit.
Speaker 2:Depends on how many pages. That's true. Like, if it's a dictionary, we might be limited to one.
Speaker 1:Good point. But a
Speaker 2:couple of casual pamphlets We really just never know where this is going. Would I ever
Speaker 1:have imagined we'd wind up here? Would you have imagined we'd wind up here? Probably not.
Speaker 2:Probably not. I've been mentioning this a lot lately, though.
Speaker 1:The books bound in human skin? Yes. For the people out there that aren't aware that this is a thing, they're both confused and concerned.
Speaker 2:Well, look it up. It's not my job to teach you. It's like, have you seen Hocus Pocus? And she goes, oh, book. I'm pretty sure that one was supposed to be bound in human skin, or at least it looks like it.
Speaker 2:And that's what I imagine every time.
Speaker 1:And it's not. They just look like regular books. No. Yeah. They really just they look like because it's supposed to be, like, kinda like tanned leather.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And that should horrify everyone. But it was a thing. Yeah. And frankly, there are so many things you can do now.
Speaker 1:You can be made into pencils. You can be made into a diamond.
Speaker 2:And we've all discussed Olyssa and I are very, like, pro death. What a statement. And by that, I mean,
Speaker 1:what's the alternative? I'm very anti death.
Speaker 2:I don't think anyone should die. We're all making it out one way.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure. Unless you're Elijah. Elijah? It's hard to say.
Speaker 2:One of those dudes. I'm sure you're very close.
Speaker 1:It's one of them. It's Elijah or Elijah. I'm not sure which one.
Speaker 2:But we think about death a lot. We watch a lot of death content. I have some death books on my shelves. So we're just thinking about the afterlife, and I wanna be buried in a wicker casket. And I want probably, like, a tree to grow out of me And my tombstone, I wanted to say, you're standing on my head.
Speaker 2:Now I'm sure we have said that before in one of our, like, hundreds of hours of talking. It's been a lot of hours. But that's my plan.
Speaker 1:I know. We've this is so ingrate like, our entire extended family is aware of
Speaker 2:this. Mhmm. And and I don't know, Brie. That's what I want.
Speaker 1:We might be strange. It is what it is.
Speaker 2:And it was what it was.
Speaker 1:Now make our transition song. I
Speaker 2:was trying to sit here
Speaker 1:and think like, okay, how do I transition from this to our topic? And there was nothing. There was no through line.
Speaker 2:So find that common ground. We're talking about books bound in human flesh. And now we're gonna transition into Christian singers.
Speaker 1:How do we get there, Brie?
Speaker 2:Who've aligned themselves with Trump politically. But how do we get from one to the other? I got it. I got it. I got it.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. Trump's skin looks like it could be made out of books.
Speaker 2:I found the bridge and I made it.
Speaker 1:Alright. Well, it's a tenuous bridge. Be careful, folks. Today, we are gonna be talking about sun protection.
Speaker 2:No. No.
Speaker 1:It's late. We're tired. We're gonna be talking about Christian singers specifically, who, yes, who have aligned themselves politically with, like, Christian nationalism, with right wing politics, and how that's problematic, how them taking a stance is problematic, and even for some of them, how not taking a stance has been problematic. Mhmm. And there are surprising amount of people in this category.
Speaker 1:I feel like I had to winnow it down Yeah. To some of the more important and more controversial one. Bria has a couple she wants to talk about. And then I am gonna be talking about Michael W. Smith and also Matthew West and Brandon Lake.
Speaker 1:And then I actually threw in another one because of my daughter specifically.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:As she has been listening to a guy who calls himself Forrest Frank. I'm not actually sure if that's his legal name or if that's just a stage name.
Speaker 2:It's a fun name if that's your real name.
Speaker 1:But she's been listening to him lately. And I was like, I wonder where he's at in all of this. So I looked him up as well. So we're gonna be talking about that.
Speaker 2:I looked up two that stood out to me the most. So Natasha Owens. Now keep in mind, I do not really listen to that much Christian music. But Natasha Owens and Gary Chapman, who Gary Chapman, we've talked about before. He was the ex husband of Amy Grant.
Speaker 2:Go back and listen to our Amy Grant episode, and you can hear kind of, like, the scandal and the drama with him. Mhmm. But those are the two that I looked up.
Speaker 1:So part of why we wanna talk about this is not to say that people can't have their own political leanings. Now I do think in the current climate we're in, it's pretty hard to lean into the Christian nationalist and still call yourself a Christian. It's not to say that celebrities, Christian celebrities, anybody can't have their own political leanings and opinions. The problem lies in taking your faith and taking your politics, just like the last two weeks when we've talked about Paula White and Mark Driscoll, where you take both of those two things and you combine them. It's very clear,
Speaker 2:at least with the two people that I've looked up, that they've aligned their careers with power.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Which is interesting because they should be aligning their careers with God. Mhmm. Correct? Because they're supposed to be Christian. They're supposed to be leading worship.
Speaker 2:And instead, they've aligned it with Trump Mhmm. And our current administration. And they're all just seeking power. Mhmm. I remember one church service we went to, and we have been to a variety of churches.
Speaker 2:I remember the pastor getting up on stage, and it was in the middle of a very tense election. Forgive me. I don't remember which one it was. Mhmm. But he said, look around you in this room.
Speaker 2:There are gonna be Democrats, and there are gonna be Republicans, and there are gonna be all kinds of different people who believe all kinds of different things. But the reason we're here is because we're worshiping God who is above politics. Mhmm. And you can be Democrat and be a Christian, and you can be Republican and be a Christian. You can be independent and be a Christian.
Speaker 2:But we should be focusing on God when we're here.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I actually remember that sermon, and I remember that being really significant because we grew up in a space where those two things were combined. Christians were Republicans. The Republican Party was the Christian Party.
Speaker 2:Even to this day, you will hear a lot of people that we love very much say that if you are a Christian, you have to be Republican.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That is the Christian political stance. Yep.
Speaker 1:And you'll see a lot of Christians use that as a default in The United States. I'm not sure if it's this way everywhere. But in The United States, there's when you vote, there's a little bubble, and they call it, like, a
Speaker 2:straight ticket. Not a gay ticket. Not a gay ticket.
Speaker 1:And it can be either a straight democrat ticket or a straight republican ticket. I don't think there's any other options. And if you check that, it just automatically makes anything that's partisan. So obviously not everything is party based, but anything that's partisan will automatically go republican or democrat. And I've always personally had a really big issue with that because I think it gives you an excuse not to know these people, not to have looked into the policies and politics of each individual person.
Speaker 1:Because you're like, well, as long as they say they're a Republican, that's the Christian way. You know? Mhmm. And I don't like that because I think you should have to take the time to know all of the people that you're voting for.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. I agree.
Speaker 1:When it comes to Christian artists in particular, I think it becomes such a big issue because it really limits your platform. These artists are not just being listened to in The United States, and I think they forget that. Because I'm sure a large part of their consumer base is in The US, but not everyone. So when you do things like, I'll go into a little bit in a second, of the performances that some of these people have done, some of the things Brie's got some really horrifying quotes from her people. It alienates you from everybody else.
Speaker 1:You're supposed to be part of God's kingdom, not part of the kingdom of The United States. And when you align yourself so specifically with US Christian nationalism, you alienate the whole rest of the world.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You're telling the whole rest of the world, well, I'm a citizen of this kingdom, not of God's kingdom. And that's not that's just not super great.
Speaker 2:It's not showing a lot of love. It's showing a lot of pushing people away. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna compare a little bit of the things that Jesus says versus the things that Christian nationalism says, and then we're gonna talk about the artists and their involvement there. So in John 18 and I wanted to focus specifically on what Jesus himself says, not what's throughout the whole bible because, obviously, that's what we need to focus on. But in John 18, Jesus says that my kingdom is not of this world. His kingdom is heaven. Right?
Speaker 1:And that's a wonderful thing because it means that it doesn't matter what countries exist. It doesn't matter where you were born or what language you speak or what kind of bible you hold or anything like that. What matters is being part of God's kingdom. Trusting in Jesus, believing in God, loving God, loving others. That's what matters.
Speaker 1:Whereas Christian nationalism says things like, we're gonna bring Christianity back to The United States. I'm not exactly sure where they think it went. We're still, like, statistically pretty Christian. But that's something that they say. Or you've got Paula White that basically has said, like, God wanted Donald Trump to be president.
Speaker 1:Saying no to Trump is like saying no to God. Things like that.
Speaker 2:It's all about power. At the end of the day, it's not about God. Mhmm. Christian nationalism is not about God. It's about manipulating people and having control over people.
Speaker 2:And if you go back and you listen to Trump, he said that. Mhmm. He said the Republicans and the Christian people are the easiest to manipulate. Mhmm. So that's why he ran as a Republican.
Speaker 1:Right. Because originally, he was not a Republican. And when asked if he thought he was going to heaven, he said, I don't think anything could get me into heaven at this point.
Speaker 2:And I agree. Now that aligns very well, unfortunately,
Speaker 1:with Michael W. Smith, who is a Christian artist and was a big deal, I feel like, when we were younger. He's maybe not as big now.
Speaker 2:Is he go west young man? Yes. Oh my gosh. There was, like I think it was a CD from the eighties, so stuff that our mom was listening to. But there is some bangers on that one.
Speaker 2:We listen friends are friends forever. Lift the Lord to Lord of them. I'm gonna listen to that tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Or maybe I won't. That's the point, Brie. Dang it. I love that. If you have the physical CD, he won't make any royalties.
Speaker 1:So that's fine. Otherwise, no. Don't. But Michael W. Smith, like I said, was a big deal when we were kids.
Speaker 1:We listened to that CD absolutely constantly. Mhmm. We had, like, a selection of five CDs, and that was one of them. And it was a great CD, and it was moving and meaningful. And you could listen to those songs as a Christian person and feel like you were worshiping God.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying that you weren't. Your motivation is what matters. But in 2020, Michael W. Smith now he may have been involved in politics prior to this, but this was when he really entered that political stage with Donald Trump and performed at the National Mall, which is in Washington, DC, for the Prayer March for America. And that was a Trump campaign event.
Speaker 1:And his vice president at the time or his vice president-elect was Mike Pence. He was there at that event. And it was basically campaign. Right? Here's the vice president.
Speaker 1:We're all gonna talk about prayer. We're gonna talk about being a Christian. Michael W. Smith is gonna play because we've prayed him a bunch of money. And so they framed it as, like, a worship moment.
Speaker 1:Can everyone imagine with me. You know those, like, worship nights that your church has? And everybody's, like, hands are up and their eyes are closed and then they film across and then What's part of your promo for a year?
Speaker 2:But what's so disgusting about that to me is why are all those people there? Right? They're not there for prayer to God. Mhmm. They're there for Trump.
Speaker 2:Right. So who were they worshiping in that moment? Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's what happens when you align faith and politics. When you get someone like this standing up, not just like, oh, I'm having a worship event near the White House. That's not the point here. The point is that this was a political event. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The vice president is there. This is an event sponsored by Donald Trump. And therefore, we've smooshed faith together with power. It's spiritual manipulation. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I'm just picturing all these people, like, you know, tears running down their face or whatever. Oh, yay. Prayer in the White House, blah blah blah. And what does it say to the rest of the world?
Speaker 2:I was just gonna say that. What about all of the people that are not Christian Mhmm. Who don't worship the same god that you do or worship the same way that you do? That's so isolating to them.
Speaker 1:And it's like what we said two weeks ago when we talked about Paula White Cain. She is the spiritual adviser to the president. Right? She's the head of the faith office. And the entire faith office is full of Protestant Christians, which means that no one else is being represented in that faith office.
Speaker 1:So ask yourself again in this scenario where Michael W. Smith is playing his Christian songs, whatever. Now let's assume that we have a Muslim president next. And someone gets up and starts playing songs about that faith at the White House. How are you as a Christian person going to feel?
Speaker 1:Are you going to feel good about that? Are you going to feel like I'm no longer represented? You're going to feel like you're no longer represented. Right? The the country will lose their minds.
Speaker 1:That's how everyone else feels now. They are not represented. And Jesus, when he was here, didn't play that game. Satan literally offered him political power. He said, I will make you the ruler of everything.
Speaker 1:I will put you on high. I will make you the person that everybody worships and looks to. Right? And Jesus said, no. That's not why I'm here.
Speaker 1:That's not my purpose. And Jesus never looked at anyone and said, you have less of
Speaker 2:a voice. He didn't do that. You think of all the people who flee their countries because of religious trauma, religious warfare, people telling them they have to believe and worship and live their lives a certain way.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And they run from that. Put yourself in that situation. Mhmm. Pretend that Christianity was not in the White House right now. Pretend it was another religion.
Speaker 2:What would you be doing? Right. What if the White House was telling you you had to worship a certain way? You wouldn't want that.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Isn't that why we came to America in the first place? Right? Mhmm. Because we wanted freedom of religion? And maybe we wanted some tea.
Speaker 2:I forget.
Speaker 1:No. We threw the tea in the harbor.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. But that was for taxes.
Speaker 1:Yes. I keep thinking I know we've brought up this episode of VeggieTales, like, a million times. But I'm thinking of the one with the chocolate bunny. And it's supposed to be, like, the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And they are in the bible, they're being asked to bow down to another god, and they refuse.
Speaker 1:In the VeggieTales version, they're being asked to bow down to a chocolate bunny, and
Speaker 2:they refuse. I would consider it. But that's
Speaker 1:what I'm thinking here is, like, your not all of you. I know you're all lovely out there. But the Christian nationalists are asking people of other faiths to bow down to a god they don't believe in. And the way to get someone like, Jesus left the earth and told us to make disciples of all nations. The way to do that isn't to tell someone, you absolutely have to bow down to my god.
Speaker 1:That's not how you do that. No. The way you do that is creating a relationship with someone. And eventually, they will maybe see, hey. Their faith looks amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, they're supposed to know you by your fruit, Right? Not So by your you're supposed to share what you have with them. You're supposed to share a meal with them. You're supposed to care about them on a personal level, care about their lives, know what's going on, how you can support them, not crack the whip Mhmm. And say, I dominate over you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Now you must bow down to my bunny. Right.
Speaker 1:Well, and in a way, you could be creating martyrs of someone else's faith too. You know? Like, we look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and say, like, oh, they're they didn't die in this story. But essentially, like, martyrs of their faith because they chose not to. And so in trying to force somebody else to bow down to your god, you're creating their martyrs.
Speaker 2:Are they saints? Probably. Because they went into the fiery furnace but didn't die. Right?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So are they a saint? Probably the saint
Speaker 1:Shadrach? Church doesn't do saints.
Speaker 2:Saint Meshach?
Speaker 1:Thank you. Saint Abednego? It's actually Abednego. I feel like that was it is. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I don't think that was good. One
Speaker 1:of the other things is worshiping only Jesus. Right? We could go back to to the VeggieTales story. You only bow down to Jesus. You only bow down to God.
Speaker 1:That's in Matthew four. Jesus says, you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve. Right? Now, Trump has said America is a nation under God. We're reclaiming this nation for God.
Speaker 1:We're blah blah blah blah blah. Right? And yet the real message is bow down to him. Mhmm. Because the messages of god are getting ignored.
Speaker 1:The real message of Jesus is love god, love others. So the lessons that you're teaching in broader politics are not Jesus' message. You can say we're a Christian nation again, but we're not a Christian nation if we're not loving God and loving others.
Speaker 2:Take a good hard look around you and see how
Speaker 1:much love you see out there. Mhmm. I dare you. I mean, I've had a really hard like, emotionally, I'm struggling a lot lately. I'm noticing myself feeling a lot more anxious and dealing with a lot more of those panicky anxiety symptoms.
Speaker 1:Because I'm looking at the world around me, and I'm like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna deal with this. This is horrible.
Speaker 2:Well, it's pretty awful too because, like, we are very privileged. We're able to look at ourselves and say, like, I don't think I would be deported. I don't think I would be separated from my family. But I'm still scared. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Me sitting here in my seat of privilege, I'm still scared. Mhmm. So what about the people less fortunate than me? How scared must they be? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And you're telling them to turn to my God, and this is love. And they don't see any love there. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Well, and the messaging is very strange because this is a a Christian stance, right, to be Christian nationalists, to deport families and people who are here legally in some cases, and even those who may not be here legally, who are still here adding to the tax base and funding Medicare and Social Security and things like that. And the Christian stance is deport, not help them become Christians, like, not be there for them. Like, if your messaging isn't bringing people to Jesus, then your messaging is wrong.
Speaker 2:Especially if you haven't even cracked open your Bible to see how many passages it says Mhmm. To protect the immigrant, protect the people who are less privileged than you. You just glazed over that part. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:There is a quote from Carrie Job, who is also a Christian singer, and I'm not gonna go into her story necessarily. She's very political, but said in 2019 after, like, a worship prayer event in the White House, said, what god is doing in our White House, I've been in tears all day. I am also in tears, but for very, very, very different reasons. I wanna talk about Matthew West. Now Matthew West hasn't actually done, like, technical campaign stuff, but he's another one that, like, I feel like you know.
Speaker 1:He's all over Christian radio right now. Oh, I don't listen to that. I don't often either, but I feel like even if you don't, he's saying truth be told is one of the big ones that I I really love. It's a song I love.
Speaker 2:Sing a couple bars. No. Well, if I can, you can.
Speaker 1:No. Truth be told?
Speaker 2:I don't know the song.
Speaker 1:So he hasn't actually performed at campaign stuff, but he was just at the White House over Christmas for the Christmas tree lighting. I'm not actually sure if he performed, but he did do the Christmas tree lighting. He has been promoting the don't stop praying for America branding, which also has a lot of Christian nationalist tie ins. He posted a picture to his social media with him and his wife and Donald Trump and Melania Trump and was like, oh, what a blessing to be here at the White House. Blah blah blah.
Speaker 1:Right? So maybe not campaigning, but definitely aligned himself with power. Why? Because it makes him more popular. Because a lot of Christians have fallen into this, oh, Donald Trump is god kinda thing, and so his fan base likes this content.
Speaker 1:Jesus talked about in Matthew and really in all of the gospels, he said, whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me. The least of these. The people who are struggling. Not people who are less important, but the people who need help, who need a lifeline, who need you. You are doing all of those things for Jesus.
Speaker 1:It's as though Jesus is sitting there staring at you saying, help me. And then you have someone like Matthew West posting pictures from the White House in his very, very fancy, expensive clothes with his best political friend now. And he's not doing any of this for the least of these. Because you look at the messaging from Donald Trump as he speaks about immigrants who are in this need situation. They need help.
Speaker 1:They need us. And he's saying, they're invading our country. We need to protect real Americans. They're hurting you. They're the enemy.
Speaker 2:Take a look back at World War two propaganda. Mhmm. They found a common enemy because they know that that's what brings people together. So they looked at the Jewish people and said, they're taking from you. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They're bad. And there's all kinds of war propaganda that you can see
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Where they try to dehumanize the people so that Hitler and his party could get higher in power. Right? All he wanted was power. And look what we're doing today. We're looking at the immigrants and the people who don't look like us and saying they are less than.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Dehumanizing them. We give them what's called an A number for people who are deported, but people who went through the Holocaust and went into refugee camps were tattooed Mhmm. With their numbers. Yep.
Speaker 2:Right? So we can see echoes of what's going on. Why are we wanting to repeat this? Mhmm. When we in The US fought against it.
Speaker 1:Right. Right? Well, you have to ask, what side of history do you wanna be on? And at the end of your life, will you be proud of these moments? Will you be proud to tell your grandchildren or the the interviewer who's writing your biography about these moments?
Speaker 1:Will you be proud of yourself? Or will you look at your history and say, oof, I should not have done that.
Speaker 2:And it's okay to look in the mirror and say, I made a mistake. Mhmm. It's okay to say, these people in the White House manipulate people. Mhmm. And they will brainwash you into making you think you're making the right decision, right?
Speaker 2:They're aligning themselves with God. So you think this is what God wants. But open your Bible for a second. Right. And you'll know this is not what God wants.
Speaker 2:Well, next week, I think we're gonna be talking a
Speaker 1:little bit about deconstruction. And if you're not familiar with that term, it essentially means, like, pulling apart your faith and figuring out what it really means. And it's really hard. It's very hard to deconstruct your faith. And I think in today's political climate, you're not just deconstructing your faith.
Speaker 1:When you go on this journey, you're also deconstructing your politics. And I do think as more liberal leaning Christians, I guess is what you could call us Mhmm. I think that we in this space need to leave room for people to do that. Yeah. For people to deconstruct and realize that they're wrong and let it hurt.
Speaker 1:Like, it's it hurts to realize those things, to realize that you may have perpetrated harm on others.
Speaker 2:Well, I look back on my life, and I would let you know right now, I was a butthole. I didn't know why I believed what I believed. And I know throughout my life, even though I was maybe young at the time, I hurt people because of things that I said and didn't know why. But now I'm at a point in my life where I can look back and I say, that was wrong. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And now I believe differently. Right. And I believe the greatest commandments are to love God and love others. And is that what we're doing? Now, do I have a little bit of road rage?
Speaker 1:Yep. A little bit is maybe not the phrase I would use.
Speaker 2:I guess when I'm driving, I'm not always loving God and loving others. Pretty
Speaker 1:solidly never. Once Bree gets mad as she's driving, it's the whole rest of the way is rage.
Speaker 2:I think I'm a witch. Because I bring it on myself. If I get really angry at one person, like, someone's going slow in front of me, and I get really rage y, then it keeps happening to The whole ride. It's like, everybody else surrounds me and is
Speaker 1:like, we're gonna screw up your drive. It's not a good time. Driving with her
Speaker 2:is a little bit rough. So someone I did not know of before researching was Natasha Owens. I'm not a big Christian music listener. And when I do listen to Christian music, I'm not usually looking at the artist. It's just like something I heard in church or something, and it got added to a playlist.
Speaker 2:And there are a few songs like that, but Natasha Owens is decidedly not one of them. I personally don't believe she's talented. Wow. Tell us how you really feel, Brittany. Like, you're more than welcome to try to go listen to her, but she's a contemporary Christian musician.
Speaker 2:In 2023, she released a song called Trump One. Interesting choice for, like, usually a Christian artist thinking about, you know, the bible and god and Jesus. No. This one is Trump won. And it was after Trump lost the election to Biden.
Speaker 2:And she came out, and this song went everywhere, I guess, for the Trump supporters. They really liked it. The MAGA people, they really loved it. The single debuted at number two on the Billboard, like, country digital song sales chart. I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2:But, like, very popular. And the whole premise of the song is Trump won and you know it. Like, the election was rigged. Trump won and you know it. And literally, if we were to do a drinking game of how many times she says Trump won and you know it, we'd be trashed.
Speaker 2:Because that's, like, pretty much the only line in the song. There is one line that says the Democrats know how to steal. Great. I just am very confused by her choices Mhmm. As a Christian artist Mhmm.
Speaker 2:To come out with this song. Now, if you're gonna tell me, I've turned away from Christian music Mhmm. Like Katy Perry. Right? Katy Perry originally was a Christian artist.
Speaker 2:Her dad was like a pastor that the kind that hits you on the head, heals Both
Speaker 1:of her parents were pastors. Possibly.
Speaker 2:And then she did a real one eighty. One eighty? Yeah. Yeah. One eighty.
Speaker 2:You do a three sixty, you
Speaker 1:go all the way around.
Speaker 2:And she came out with, like, teenage dream or something
Speaker 1:like that. I kissed a girl.
Speaker 2:Yes. That song. Which made people go crazy. If you were to tell me, I'm not doing Christian music anymore. I'm coming out with a new genre of music and it's called political.
Speaker 2:I
Speaker 1:don't know.
Speaker 2:Then fine, but she's still claiming to be a Christian artist. Right. And this is the music that she's coming out with. The problem that I have is that people who are Christians are looking at this and thinking, oh, because you said this, this is what God would also say. Because you must know more than me because you're a Christian artist.
Speaker 2:So you must be speaking the truth.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Another song that she came out with, which I think is more problematic, came out in 2024, and it's called The Chosen One. And it promoted her belief that God has chosen President Trump to push back against the evil in our country and the evil of this world.
Speaker 1:What if President Trump is the evil in our country and this
Speaker 2:world? The whole song just goes basically one of the quotes is, I'm standing with the chosen one. Ain't no stopping what the Lord has done. And then towards the end she says, Trump is the chosen one. Now, when you're saying, I'm standing with the chosen one Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I'd be like, oh, cool. You're standing with Jesus. Right. And now she's replacing Jesus with Donald Trump.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And again, it's problematic because people think that she's speaking the truth. Mhmm. People think that she's educated in the Bible and speaking the truth. And if you look through the Bible in Exodus, says, you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below.
Speaker 2:You shall not bow down to them or worship them for I am the Lord your God. And I'm a jealous God. And he goes on to say how he's gonna smoke you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Well, there's a picture that Trump reposted at one point of him as, like, a golden statue. Like, the golden calf? Yeah. And I was like, have we not heard that story?
Speaker 1:Because it doesn't go well. They have to drink the golden calf. Like, it's not a good time.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It's just a very interesting statement. Like, if you're trying to tell me that you don't think that Trump is an idol for you
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Or the Republican Party is an idol for you or the MAGA movement is an idol for you, you're dead wrong. You're lying.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because you have directly replaced Jesus with the power of the Republican movement.
Speaker 1:We talked probably the last couple of weeks about what taking God's name in vain means. Mhmm. We were taught not to say God in any context other than speaking about God. And yet, this is okay somehow. Like, to me, this is taking the Lord's name in vain.
Speaker 1:Because you're literally saying, no. No, Jesus. You stand over there. It's like that quote from Pride and Prejudice in the six hour long spectacular when Lydia gets married. Because at the time, normally, like, you would file in the house and you'd walk sort of in a line, the oldest kid would go first and then so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:But whichever one was married would go first. She, like so Lydia She
Speaker 2:had more status.
Speaker 1:Yes. So Lydia was the youngest, but she got married first. And so she walks in front of her oldest sister, she goes, no, no, Jane. You go behind me now because I'm a married woman. And that's what makes me think.
Speaker 1:I was like, no. No, Jesus. You go behind me now because I'm the president of The United States.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Well, they kind of have made it that way. Mhmm. Right? We talked about Mark Driscoll last week and how he couldn't worship a hippie Jesus.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And how he thinks he could beat up a hippie Jesus. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Like, hippie Jesus is is Jesus. Like, that's what he is. And I say that all the time to people. I'm like, Jesus was totally a hippie. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Love God and love others. That's a very hippie thing to say.
Speaker 2:He's going around, like, radically feeding the people. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:What? It's very anti establishment. Right.
Speaker 2:The next one that
Speaker 1:I wanted to talk about is Brandon Lake, and he is one that is super, super popular. If you are into Christian music at all, you've definitely heard his most recent album. It was all over Christian radio for a while. And he's a great singer. Like, he's got a really good voice.
Speaker 1:I really I dislike Christian music as a rule because I think It's bad? Normally yeah. Like, it just seems to be, like, less talented people. You can always clock it.
Speaker 2:You can always clock There's certain people that I'm like, okay. This is a beat. Like, I will say Forrest Frank Mhmm. Who I heard one of his songs yesterday. I was like, okay.
Speaker 2:This is a bit of a bop. Yeah. But usually Normally. It's like like Natasha Owens. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:You're not talented.
Speaker 1:But I do think Brandon Lake is pretty talented. Like, he he does have a good voice. His songs are pretty interesting. Like, I I enjoy his music as a rule. And he has not officially endorsed Trump.
Speaker 1:I will say that. I think that's important to note. He hasn't done any events at the White House. He hasn't done any of that kind
Speaker 2:of stuff. He didn't sing along with Trump won and you know it?
Speaker 1:Not that I'm aware of. No. Oh, okay. I don't think there's any, like, riffs that he's got going on. However, he did go and perform at Charlie Kirk's memorial, which was a heavily MAGA supported event.
Speaker 1:There were quite a few Christian singers that got up and sang for it. If you're not familiar with Charlie Kirk, he was the head of Turning Point USA, which is a very MAGA organization that tries to target younger people, so college age and younger, to become part of this Christian nationalist movement. He would go around and debate college kids to try and embarrass them and prove them wrong about god and then was assassinated recently. And the Christian nationalist movement called him martyr. And then you had all these Christian singers get up at his memorial and be like, oh, look at this wonderful martyr or whatever.
Speaker 1:And really, when you listened to a lot of the things that he said and as a rule, don't wanna disparage someone who's passed away, but he said some pretty horrific, racist, sexist, homophobic things. Maybe the disparaging isn't so bad. But even though Brandon Lake did not get up and officially endorse Donald Trump, he did get up and endorse the mega movement by performing at this event. And again, he's playing to his consumer base. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, a lot of the Christians align with this political party. So I'm gonna get up there. It's gonna make me look really good. It's gonna make me popular. It's a career move for me.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's not, I wanna go spread the good news of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Right. And I wanted to talk a little bit about I just I literally just found this. A lot of the Christian movement right now is talking about Romans 13. Now Romans 13 is the part of the Bible that says, essentially, everyone should be subject to the governing authorities. Don't break the law is basically what that part of the Bible is saying.
Speaker 1:And so you've got the Christian nationalists right now. Now they're not gonna say that to you when a democrat is president, but they are saying it now of like, well, you gotta do what you're supposed to do. Whatever crazy laws this man comes out with, you just gotta do it because you should be subject to the governing authorities. But as I was reading about it, I found out that in March 1933, in front of members of the German parliament, Otto Debellius, who was a Protestant theologian, told the Germans to follow Romans 13. And who was he talking about in that instance?
Speaker 1:He was talking about Hitler. And that was the message of the Nazi party. Because the Nazi party was very supposedly Christian. Christian nationalist.
Speaker 2:I'm sure people have seen this all over the internet, but they have been posting a lot about Anne Frank. Mhmm. And rightfully so. And they're saying the people that took and killed Anne Frank and her family, everybody but her father Mhmm. Were doing it legally.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. They were following the law. And it was legal to murder people. What are we doing today? Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I saw a thing that said there is an Anne Frank hiding somewhere in The United States right now. Probably many. I hope she's keeping a journal. There are probably many children hiding, being hidden right now
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:To ensure their safety. And even if you don't get up and say, I support Donald Trump, if you align yourself with this movement at all, you are the one making those children stay in hiding. Their blood will be on your hands. I realize that that is a harsh statement, but it is a true statement.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So it is important not only to not stand up at a political rally, but also to vocally say, I am not for this. This does not represent my god. Gary Chapman,
Speaker 2:who we've talked about before, he was the ex husband of Amy Grant, is also a Christian singer. So that must have been a fun relationship. Just singing all the time. Over Christmas, he did come out with I guess you would call it a song. I think it's more of like a a spoofy type song, but it says, we wish you a Maga Christmas, instead of we wish you a Merry Christmas.
Speaker 2:And, like, the whole thing sang the whole song. We wish you a Maga Christmas, and there's other lines to it too that talk about politics. But I just can't help but think how awful that is from a Christian perspective. You're replacing Christmas, the birth of Jesus, our savior. He came down, was born from Mary to go die on a cross so that we could have the opportunity to go to heaven.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. God sent his only son to die. We talk about this as Christians. We harp on this at Christmas time because that is the reason why we're celebrating. We're celebrating the opportunity to go to heaven and be with our God forever.
Speaker 2:But we replaced that with MAGA. Mhmm. We replaced that with Donald Trump. We replaced it with our current administration. We replaced it with power.
Speaker 2:Power of this world, which we're not supposed to be part of. Power of not the kingdom in heaven Mhmm. The kingdom of The United States. And that's what Gary Chapman decided to come out with.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Obviously, I knew who he was because of our Amy Grant episode, I had kind of thought he faded into the background. So when you brought his name up, I was
Speaker 2:like, oh, hey. I knew who that is. Also, when I looked him up, there are multiple Gary Chapmans, and one of them is the author of the five love languages. Not
Speaker 1:the same guy?
Speaker 2:Not the same guy. Weird. I was like, wait a second. He also sings?
Speaker 1:Hold on. Hold on. Wait
Speaker 2:a second. I'm, like, 93% sure they're not the same guys. Because Gary Chapman, wrote the five love languages book, is, like, 84.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. So probably not this dude.
Speaker 2:Gary Chapman, he was married to Amy Grant. He also has been, like, on a radio show when they had, like, TV show. He's not exclusively, like, a Christian singer. I think he is also in the secular Mhmm. World as well.
Speaker 2:But known to be, like, a Christian. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I really can't justify anyone, whether they call themselves a Christian or not, from aligning with this movement. It just seems worse when you're a Christian whose main calling is to love, and you align with this movement.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And that's why we're calling out all these people throughout these last three episodes is these are people who are coming and telling Mhmm. The world that they are Christians, that they're Christ followers, and yet their lives are not that of Christian
Speaker 1:Christ followers. And if I'm someone standing on the outside looking in and saying, this is what because these are the types of people, Paula White, Mark Driscoll, Matthew West, Gary Chapman, like Donald Trump. Yeah. If these are the people that are telling me what Christianity is, because they are the loudest voices or some of the loudest voices, I want nothing to do with this. We're not worshiping the same god.
Speaker 1:No. This religion that they are showing is a religion of hate. It is a religion of power. It is the religion of the pharisees, except arguably a whole bunch worse. And I wouldn't want that.
Speaker 1:And so, again, if your faith is pushing people away from God, you're doing it wrong. But I also the last person I wanted to talk about as we wrap up is Forrest Frank. And again, I'm really
Speaker 2:just not sure if that's his real name. I think he should have a brother named
Speaker 1:Woods William. Thank you for that. You're welcome. I really just heard about this person. My daughter had heard one of his songs and loved it and wanted to play it and whatever.
Speaker 1:And we don't listen to a whole lot of Christian music, so this was out of our norm. Well, there's a TikTok dance that goes along with this stuff. Yes. She's been doing that. But I looked into him because I wanted to see what someone that's very, like, Gen Z, like, appealing to the much younger demographic.
Speaker 1:The youths of today. Exactly. What do they look like? Now based on the research that I did, Forrest Frank leans a lot more into TikTok faith, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the TikTok dances, the god is for me. Not in, like, a bad way, but, like, god is gonna help me emotionally. God is gonna help me through life. God is going to keep me safe. And things that he emphasizes as, like, joy, personal peace, God helping you, like, you individually to feel okay.
Speaker 1:And that's very TikTok friendly.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Short form content. Exactly. Not very deep. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I will say he has not aligned himself politically at all that I could find. He's not doing rallies. He hasn't gotten up at any controversial events. Nothing like that. And that's a positive.
Speaker 1:So at
Speaker 2:least we've the bar's low, but I guess that's a positive. The bar is in hell. The bar is so far in hell.
Speaker 1:But it is also a little problematic. And you can argue it's not the most problematic thing that we've said in this episode, certainly, but he doesn't talk about important things. He's using his platform to say, Jesus is joy. Jesus is gonna help me. Jesus is for you.
Speaker 1:Whatever. But I think that we live in a time where you can't be apolitical. You can't be in the middle right now. I hope that we reach a time where you can be in the middle again. That would be great.
Speaker 1:But right now, when people are saying to be a Christian is to deport, To be a Christian is to be okay with someone being gunned down in the streets of Minneapolis. To be a Christian is to be okay with being sexist, homophobic, racist, horrible. In that era, I don't think you can be out of politics.
Speaker 2:Especially if you have a platform like that. Right. And you're saying hopefully, you're saying, hey, that's not my god. Mhmm. And you do have a platform.
Speaker 2:You need to be screaming. Mhmm. You need to scream from your lungs that this is
Speaker 1:not the same God. Mhmm. This is not okay. This is not love. Right.
Speaker 1:Now, you can certainly argue that the reason that he doesn't do that is because the Christian fan base largely wouldn't like it. Nope. He would lose a lot of followers. He would lose money. He would lose influence.
Speaker 1:He would lose power. So there is a financial motivation for him not to do that. There's a quote, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right because I don't have it in front of me. But it essentially says it's very hard to get a man to believe something when his financial life depends upon him not believing that thing. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He's not going to be political. Now, I can't say this for sure, but thus far, my assumption would be he's not political because it would harm him. But he is benefiting from the MAGA movement. He is benefiting from that customer base who's taking God's name and throwing it in the dirt. And that's not okay with me.
Speaker 1:It's not okay to stand by while this is all happening and benefit. I think it's one thing
Speaker 2:because a lot of celebrities will say that they don't wanna align themselves politically or speak out against certain things because that will affect the work that they get. Mhmm. Because certain producers or directors or whatever might not wanna work with you because maybe you're too outspoken. But if you're a Christian person Mhmm. I don't think you have the option Mhmm.
Speaker 2:To not be outspoken about what your god represents.
Speaker 1:Being able to be middle ground is a luxury. Being able to be quiet about things like this is a luxury. And it is a luxury that you probably only have in The United States right now if you're white, if you're male, and if you're at least middle class. But really, it's all a facade. None of us really has that luxury to be not that political, to be silent, to ignore it.
Speaker 1:You just don't right now. Our world is
Speaker 2:so Crashing and burning.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So tense. So scary that you have to get involved. It is your job as a Christian person to get involved. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Because without it, these are the voices that everybody hears. You cannot make disciples of all nations if they think that your faith absolutely sucks. And I'm gonna be honest. It looks like our faith absolutely sucks. I posted a TikTok last week, and I said, basically, like, I was always told not to be embarrassed of being a Christian as a kid.
Speaker 1:Don't be embarrassed to share your faith. Don't be embarrassed to talk about being a Christian because you should never be embarrassed of Jesus. Well, I'm not embarrassed about Jesus, but I am embarrassed to tell people I'm a Christian because these are the people representing Christianity. So I try and use other words. Yes.
Speaker 1:I'm a person of faith. Yes. I'm a Christ follower. Something that just anything that doesn't associate me with this chaos. When we were younger, there
Speaker 2:was a story in junior church that they would talk about quite often. And it was I think we've shared this on the podcast before, but it was a story about a school that had an active shooter and was going around and asking people if they were Christians or not. And if you said no, then you could go and be free. But this one girl was shot because she said that she did believe in Jesus. And for some reason, they really harped on that.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And we all thought there's gonna be a time in our lives where someone is gonna have a gun pointed towards us, and we're gonna have to say whether we're Christian or not. I think we're at a time in our lives where someone is pointing a weapon at us, and they're wanting us to, as Christian people, align with Trump. Mhmm. And I think right now, we're in a position where we have to say no Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Even if that's violent. And that's hard to say right now because I know what's happening in the world, and I know what has happened to people.
Speaker 1:But we have to stand up against it. Mhmm. Even when it's hard and scary. Even when it might benefit us to do the opposite. It would be a lot easier for Brie and I to to be more right wing.
Speaker 1:Like, we have not become the people we were supposed to become.
Speaker 2:I could find a good Christian boy at a good Christian church and be married. And I would fulfill my purpose.
Speaker 1:But we can't do that. I don't just mean the the finding a good Christian boy at a good Christian church and getting married. I mean, aligning ourselves with this Christian nationalist movement, it would save several of our relationships to do that. But we can't because we truly sincerely believe that this is not what God would want. And that at the end of our lives, if we wanna be proud of ourselves in this moment, we have to do the hard thing, and that's stand up against it.
Speaker 1:Now next week, we're gonna be talking about deconstruction. And like I said, deconstruction is pulling apart your faith and finding what's left. It's a big buzzword on social media right now. And we both have had to go through that journey, and it is a tough one to do. It hurts.
Speaker 1:We were just talking to our cousin about this the other day, how difficult that journey is. And so we're gonna talk a little bit about our own journeys, about what that might look like
Speaker 2:for you, what to expect in it. Maybe some wrecking balls. Maybe some sledgehammers. Yeah. Whatever.
Speaker 1:Whatever works.
Speaker 2:And maybe some small those little brushes that they use to dust off dinosaur bones.
Speaker 1:Wow. We went from sledgehammers to brushes, Yeah.
Speaker 2:You need to have them both. Right. If you're deconstructing, we need to have all the tools in our toolbox. Toolbox.
Speaker 1:Alright. Get ready for the tools in your toolbox. I
Speaker 2:don't know that everyone will get that. Oh, home improvement. Alright. So we'll talk to you
Speaker 1:guys about that next week. Do something nice this week to someone that looks like they really need it,
Speaker 2:or call someone out on their stupidity. You get to pick.
Speaker 1:Good luck. Bye. Love you. Bye.
Speaker 2:Love you.