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What if you could get more of what you want in life? But not through pushing, forcing, or pressure.
You can.
When it comes to money, time, and energy, no one’s gonna turn away more.
And Kate Northrup, Bestselling Author of Money: A Love Story and Do Less and host of Plenty, is here to help you expand your capacity to receive all of the best.
As a Money Empowerment OG who’s been at it for nearly 2 decades, Kate’s the abundance-oriented best friend you may not even know you’ve always needed.
Pull up a chair every week with top thought leaders, luminaries, and adventurers to learn how to have more abundance with ease.
One of the most powerful ways you can take your power back economically is to get just the basics that you need from the news and unplug and unsubscribe and unfollow. Protect your peace above anything else because your peace is your ability to make smart financial decisions and be part of the solution that we need, which is people engaging in the economy with wisdom and power and clarity and consciousness. Welcome to Plenty. I'm your host Kate Northrup and together we are going on a journey to help you have an incredible relationship with money, time, and energy, and to have abundance on every possible level. Every week, we're gonna dive in with experts and insights to help you unlock a life of hunting.
Kate Northrup:Let's go fill our cups. Hello. Hello. Welcome to this special bonus episode. I am not usually the one to share hot takes about news and current events.
Kate Northrup:That is not what this show is about. However, given that this show is about abundance, is about our relationship with money, I thought it made sense to do an episode to talk about what's going on in the economy and how to thrive financially even when the economy feels like a mess. So if you are looking to beat the drum of fear and constriction and contraction and the sky is falling, and this time it's different. Everything is going to hell in a handbasket. Tune out.
Kate Northrup:This show is not gonna be for you. If you are looking for hopeful, helpful advice grounded in historical evidence, grounded in a regulated nervous system that you can co regulate with, then that's what you're going to get today. So I'm going to walk you through what we're doing with our money right now, what I think you should be focused on to prepare yourself. I'm also going to get into my unique methodology to build up your strong financial foundation in times of crisis and in regular times. And I'm gonna be highlighting the stories of people who have been thriving, who have thrived during previous times of economic recession in the .com bubble, in the early two in, like, around February, '2 thousand '1, in 02/2008, and also in 2020.
Kate Northrup:So we're gonna be highlighting some key examples of people who have thrived financially during those times and 10 examples, 10 specific things that they all have in common that you can use as a checklist to keep yourself grounded and centered in this time. Here's what I want you to know. You are not a statistic, my friend. The fact that you are listening to this episode right now tells me that you are not like the masses. This is not a mainstream show, which means your results will tend to be extraordinary.
Kate Northrup:Folks who listen to plenty are on the leading edge. We are here to create the new earth. We are here to be shapers of the new economy, and that means that the headlines and the fear mongering of the media need not apply to you. So know that, number one. Number two, I wanna be super clear.
Kate Northrup:This is what the economy is. The economy is the conglomerate of the decisions of millions and billions of people that impact what's going on with the stock market, inflation rates, that that impact all of the numbers that we read as, like, the economic news. Now I'm not an economist nor do I play one on the Internet, but I have been working with people on healing their relationship with money for over twenty years. And here's what I know. People who have a healthy relationship with money do not succumb themselves to financial panic.
Kate Northrup:When we make decisions from panic, we make decisions that recreate the very state of lack and fear that those decisions were made from. And so today's episode is a warm hug. It is a compassionate, fuzzy blanket with strong advice for how to thrive during these uncertain times. Now I want you to remember that while the economy is kind of a read on the temperature of a particular city, a particular country, a particular region financially, it is just the average of what's going on with all the people. And you, my friend, are not average.
Kate Northrup:So we already covered that, but I just wanted to make it clear. Here's the thing. People who thrive financially during economic downturns see opportunity while others see chaos. What do I beat the drum about constantly? Your nervous system.
Kate Northrup:Now today's episode is not going to be about how to rewire your nervous system to feel safe and secure financially no matter what, but I want to say that healing your nervous system in relationship to money is the number one most important thing you could focus on during an economic recession to make sure that the decisions you make, that the feelings you feel, and that the actions you take set you up to thrive. Your ability to see opportunity while others see chaos, while others see fear, while others see crisis is dependent on your nervous system's ability to feel safe. If your nervous system is in a threat response, if you're in survival mode, you will not be able to see anything other than chaos and crisis. But if your nervous system, if you know how to come back to center, if you know how to return to resonance and power and presence and wholeness, you can easily see opportunity where others see chaos, and you can be brilliant in these times. That's why you must come to my Good With Money workshop.
Kate Northrup:There could never have been a more important time for this work. I scheduled the dates for Good With Money in May 2024. I couldn't have possibly known that in April 2025 when Good With Money is happening, it is my once a year live financial healing workshop. I couldn't have possibly known when I set the dates for this workshop that we would be inviting to the workshop at the very same time that headlines are all about economic crisis and impending recessions and the stock market falling and all of that stuff. I just want you to know it couldn't be better timed, and while I'm certainly not happy that things are becoming, you know, chaotic in the economy, I am really happy that I know for sure that the work we're doing in Good With Money is the solution you need.
Kate Northrup:It is the foundation that will provide you the ability to find opportunity in this time of great change and great transition. So make sure you're signed up for Good With Money. You can head over to KateNorthrup.com/good if you're not already. But likely, if you're listening to this, you already have signed up, and if you haven't, make sure you do. So I would love to let you know.
Kate Northrup:I'm not gonna go in about headlines because quite frankly, by the time this episode comes out, these headlines may have shifted. But I do want to say that beyond your nervous system healing, which is the first and foremost, that is your ability. That will determine your ability to think critically, to think creatively, to see opportunities where other people only see chaos. Number two is it is a really good time to double down on building your cushion fund. So a lot of financial experts call this your emergency fund.
Kate Northrup:I believe in the energetic power of our words and our frequency. What we know from quantum physics is that we attract what we are. We attract who we are being. We don't attract what we want. We attract who we are being and the state in which we are living our daily lives.
Kate Northrup:So I don't believe in saving money for an emergency, because if we're saving money for an emergency, we tend to create an emergency. Instead, I love to call it a cushion fund. My recommendation is three to six months of living expenses in a cushion fund that you put in a high yield savings account. Those of you who end up joining us in relaxed money will get access to a high yield savings account that's that's exclusive to financial professionals and people in our community, so stay tuned for that. But you need to save three to six months of living expenses in a high yield savings account.
Kate Northrup:That gives you a nice a nice, soft, fluffy cushion to be able to fall back upon when life requires it, whether that is something going on outside of you, like something in the economy, or something that's happening more on a micro level in your own life, like starting a new business or having a new baby and wanting to go on maternity leave or an illness in the family or whatever it may be. We need a cushion for both delightful events and unexpected ones. Either way, we wanna build ourselves a soft place to land. So now's the time to pad your cushion fund, get it in a high yield savings account so it is earning interest while you sleep. And the second piece of that is, you might be asking, like, how do I build up my cushion fund?
Kate Northrup:Well, I have a very unique methodology that I created when I was, like, 25 years old to align your spending with what you value so that it's easier to find more spaciousness in your monthly spending so you have way more left over without feeling deprived. So back in the day, I was making $34,000 a year, and I was in over $20,000 of credit card debt. Now others might have told me that was a time for panic. That was a time of crisis. And while I knew I needed to do something about it, I decided that I was going to live abundantly while I dissolved my debt, or as I call it, invoices for blessings already received.
Kate Northrup:So what I did is I aligned the way I spent my money with what actually gave me the biggest bang for my buck. Now we go into a whole process for this in Relaxed Money, but the the quick and dirty that you could like just at least think about without having the entire methodology is think about what gives you the most bang for your buck. Right? That's gonna be really unique. For example, I'm not that into cars.
Kate Northrup:Right? Like driving a Lamborghini or, like, some kind of fancy pants car, it doesn't really do it for me. I drive a Toyota Prius. What I love about my Prius is it's silent. It's really easy to parallel park, and I only have to put in, like, $25 of gas a month.
Kate Northrup:It just makes me feel zippy and light and abundant. Right? So if I went and bought a hundred grand car, for example, that would not give me a sizable, impactful return on my investment because it doesn't really align with my values versus I'm a huge health nut. Right? Like, we have thousands and thousands of dollars of strange health equipment in our home.
Kate Northrup:And so I would much rather pull in my spending in areas that don't give me that much bang for my buck so that I can invest in the places where $1 invested gives me, like, a 10 x or a hundred x return on the amount of joy and the amount of abundance I receive from that money. When you get really clear on aligning your spending with your values, you don't need to spend nearly as much money, and yet you feel way more abundant. So doing this work and really getting in there and looking at your numbers, which you're much more easily able to do when you are working on healing your nervous system and signaling to your body that looking at your numbers and engaging with your money is safe, when you do that work, you can find all this extra cushion to build your three to six months of living expenses in the bank. And by the way, if you're a business owner, I also recommend having three months of business expenses in the bank in a business high yield savings account. So that's just a hot tip if you're a business owner.
Kate Northrup:Okey dokey. Now the other thing is my mentor and friend, Barbara Hewson, formerly Barbara Stani, she wrote Overcoming Under Earning and Rewire for Wealth and Sacred Success. She's amazing. And Barbara talked about how when she became an investor, she everyone else was like talking about how the sky was falling, like in 02/2008. Oh, the sky is falling.
Kate Northrup:This is terrible. Da da da. And I had a conversation with my girlfriend the other day too. She was like, oh, with everything that's going on in the economy, are you guys, like, selling are you guys selling your investments, or what are you doing? And I was like, no.
Kate Northrup:No. No. No. No. No.
Kate Northrup:No. No. You do not sell when the market is low. That makes no sense. Panic selling is the very reason the market crashes.
Kate Northrup:So it's such a fascinating if you can take a 30,000 foot view, you'll see it's a fascinating phenomenon in which headlines start to beat the drum of fear, and then people get scared, and then they panic sell their assets, their stocks, their bonds, their whatever. And then the reality of the economy begins to match the headlines, because the very thing that the headlines are about manifests in the world because people are outsourcing their financial power and deciding because the headlines say they need to panic, they should panic, and then they take panicked steps. And panicked steps ensure that they're selling at the bottom of the market and losing money. It makes no sense. So Barbara Hewson talks about that in times of economic downturn, stocks are going on sale.
Kate Northrup:Right? So it's like a sale in the stock market. It is a wonderful time when a a very successful company that has overall had really strong returns, maybe you can get that stock for 13% less or 15% less. Like, that's a good investment because we wanna buy low, right, and sell high. Now for most people, they're not day traders.
Kate Northrup:Right? Like, they're not trying to tune in to everything going on in the stock market every single day so that they can make a quick buck at the end of today. Most of us are buying and holding for the long term. And when we look at the long term, since the year 1957, the stock market has had, on average, since 1957, a 10.5% return annually for the last seventy years. Okay?
Kate Northrup:This time is not different. If we are here for the long term, right, if you don't need that money immediately, the stock market is gonna come on back. Even during the last massive dip, the market returns returned within two years. Right? So there's no need to panic sell, hold, and then it's a great time to take any extra money and invest it when stocks go low because the stock market is having a sale.
Kate Northrup:Now that is a prime example of when everyone else sees chaos and is panicking, you see opportunity. So I wanna give credit to miss Barbara Hewson for that. Stock markets the stock market is going on sale, and that is the wealth builder's advantage. And then the other thing I recommend is to implement a dollar cost averaging strategy. What the data shows us is that people who, you know, essentially use the stock market as gambling where it's like they're trying to time it appropriately or whatever, they tend to lose out versus people who use dollar cost averaging, meaning they set aside a specific amount and they put it in every week or every month no matter what is going on in the market.
Kate Northrup:That dollar cost averaging strategy over the long term is shown to be the most effective. It can also be an incredible way to automate in a nervous system regulated way your investments. And that is one of the things that we teach as bonus material in Relaxed Money, where you can start getting your money working for you in ways that don't require you to be a Wall Street whiz by any stretch of the imagination. It is largely automated, and that is a good strategy is dollar cost averaging. So I already talked about this, but I wanna highlight that fear based financial decision making compounds scarcity.
Kate Northrup:When we have a nervous system that is dysregulated, right, so when we have a stress and threat bucket that is overwhelmed and overloaded, and certainly, if you're paying a ton of attention to the news and the headlines right now, you may be in that state of excess fear and excess threat, not to mention the fact of, like, the regular stressful things that might be going on in your life. I have to tell you, and I really want you to get, that when we are not actively engaging in metabolizing our stress in somatic ways, not thinking about it, not, like, not with our mind. When we are not metabolizing our stress on a daily basis with our bodies, which is the only place that stress can get metabolized, we will only be able to act out of fear. And when we act out of fear, we only get more circumstances that are scarce and fear based. When we are in an overloaded stress and threat scenario, our survival brain kicks in, and our survival brain is trying to make sure that we only experience the same thing we've already experienced.
Kate Northrup:So it will do everything within its power to keep us in a limited range of life experience that is familiar to us. It will not essentially allow us to see opportunity where other people see chaos because opportunity would be a direct threat to our sense of here's what's familiar. Right? So if you grew up, for example, in financial chaos or financial pressure or financial stress or instability, that's going to feel like home. So just trying to look out at the world through the eyes of opportunity is going to be impossible during times of stress and threat.
Kate Northrup:Because during times of excess stress and threat, our default is to go back to the nervous system thermostat that matches our experience in childhood because our nervous system wants us to experience only that which we've experienced before. So abundance and opportunity is perceived as a direct threat to a nervous system that is wired for scarcity and chaos and crisis and instability. So even though these times of economic chaos may not feel good, for many people, they feel like home, and they will totally take the bait because there's a part of our wiring that gets off on the addictive nature of fear, and the media only feeds on it and only feeds it. One of the most powerful ways you can take your power back economically is to get just the basics that you need from the news and unplug and unsubscribe and unfollow. Protect your peace above anything else, because your peace is your ability to make smart financial decisions and be part of the solution that we need, which is people engaging in the economy with wisdom and power and clarity and consciousness.
Kate Northrup:Okay. So we've talked a lot about the nervous system on the Plenty podcast. You can go back to previous episodes, and we'll link a few of them underneath in the show notes on this episode. But I really wanna highlight that now is the time to double down on your nervous system healing techniques. One of my favorite ones is to go for a walk.
Kate Northrup:When we move our body in bilateral rhythmic motion, we metabolize stress. So go for a walk. Move your body. Take off your shoes. Stand on the bare earth.
Kate Northrup:Those things will remind you that all is actually well. And when you make financial decisions from the place of knowing that all is well right now, you make decisions that continue to create a scenario in which all is well. Now I also wanna say that there are folks who have thrived, who have absolutely thrived in all sorts of times of economic downturns. One of them is Sarah Blakely. So Sarah Blakely, the founder of Spanx, she is a billionaire, she took $5,000 during the 2thousand,2001.com bust bubble bust, and she invested it in solving a problem that she knew women had, which is, about shapewear.
Kate Northrup:Right? And, like, that feeling of, like, oh, you can see my panty lines, do this, that, and the other thing. So she knew that even during a time of economic downturn, beauty remains important. Vanity remains important. That's an industry that is going to thrive no matter what.
Kate Northrup:And she had a smart idea, and she went and she solved a problem. So Sarah Blakely is a wonderful example of someone who thrived in the last economic recession. Now she didn't rely on venture capitalism, which venture capital, which dried up in the recession. So she actually maintained full power in her company, and she focused on value creation, and she leveraged word-of-mouth marketing and organic celebrity endorsements rather than big ad spend. So she worked with what she had.
Kate Northrup:My friend, Mignon Francois, the founder of The Cupcake Collection, also in 02/2008 during the Great Recession, she was a single mom of six in Nashville, struggling financially with only $5 to her name, and she couldn't afford to keep the electricity on or provide the basic necessities for her children. But in her amazing book, she tells the story, and her book is called Made From Scratch. She tells the story of how she invested her last $5 in baking supplies, and despite having no prior baking experience, she took that $5 and turned it into over $600 within a week because she knew during a time of economic downturn, people still needed comfort. They still needed treats. They still needed cupcakes.
Kate Northrup:Right? And she, over the next seventeen years, grew her business, The Cupcake Collection, into a multimillion dollar enterprise, and she sold over 5,000,000 cupcakes without incurring debt or taking out loans. And she started that business in 02/2008. Incredibly, incredibly inspiring. There are so many other people.
Kate Northrup:There was a guy who worked at auto detailing place that closed during 2020. And instead of just being like, uh-oh, I've just now completely lost my job, he took his skill set. He knew how to add value. He was like, people are still gonna be driving. People are still gonna be needing their cars cleaned.
Kate Northrup:So he created his own mobile detailing business and was able to thrive when everything else shut down in 2020. There are countless examples of this, and I wanna highlight 10 things that people have in common who thrive in any economic climate. So I I said number one, they have worked on healing their nervous system so that they can do the following 10 things. And again, we are going to, in real time, rewire your nervous system money thermostat so that abundance and opportunity actually feel safe on a conscious on a conscious, subconscious, and unconscious level so that you will not sabotage yourself, so that you will not get caught by the hook of fear that they are so desperately trying to catch us with right now so that you can remain whole and complete and abundant no matter what. And that's what we're gonna be doing in Good With Money.
Kate Northrup:So make sure you sign up at KateNorthrup.com/good. It is the only time I teach this workshop. It is live. It is once a year, and it is the most powerful important place you could show up right now during this time. So here are the 10 things that people who thrive financially even when the economy is a mess do.
Kate Northrup:Number one, they respond instead of reacting. Right? So rather than panic, they pause. They take advantage of the space between stimulus and response, and they're able to use their full mental and intuitive capacities to choose to be at choice about their wisest next step. And I will tell you that requires having a regulated healthy nervous system.
Kate Northrup:Number two, they lean into being of service and the real needs that people have. So Sarah Blakely, she knew women wanted to feel beautiful no matter what. Francois, she knew that people wanna eat cupcakes when they're stressed. Right? So there were real needs that people had, and they asked, what do people need right now?
Kate Northrup:Miguel, right, with his mobile auto detailing. People are still gonna be driving around getting their groceries and whatever. Right? Like, they still wanna have a clean car. So what do people need right now, and how can I position myself to meet urgent and meaningful needs?
Kate Northrup:So service becomes the engine of financial sustainability. Now that's true no matter what our economic climate. When we add value, we receive value in return. And those who are the smartest with money, those who are good with money, understand how to add value to other people's lives and get paid in return. Number three, these people who thrive during economic times of downturn work with what they had.
Kate Northrup:They work with what they had. They look around. They're resourceful. They're able to see all the riches that they already have, whether it's within their network, whether it's a skill set, whether it's a particular resource or or methodology that they've created. So they don't start usually with big capital or ideal conditions.
Kate Northrup:They maximize the resources, skills, and relationships they already have in their hands. So they choose resourcefulness over resources. Number four, they allow their identities to evolve. So when we have a fixed limited identity, that identity is actually wired into our brain and our nervous system. Our brain and body, the neural patterning is our identity.
Kate Northrup:And the good news is when we do our nervous system healing work, the rewiring work that we'll do in Good With Money and beyond, we actually can quickly update our identity so that it is possible to act and be in new ways relatively easily. So those people who are thriving during these times don't cling to past titles or roles or past identities to be like, well, if if you're a laid off factory worker or a stay at home parent or a restaurant chef, you'd be like, well, I'm just a laid off I'm just I'm a I was a laid off factory worker. I just can't do this. Or I my the school I taught at is not is not open, so I just can't do this. Right?
Kate Northrup:It's looking at how can I have a fluid identity that can adapt and evolve giving the given the adapting and evolving circumstances? Number five, they made small, courageous first steps. So none of these people that I spoke about leapt straight into multimillion dollar success. They made micro moves like baking with $5, posting a new Etsy listing, investing in one property. Right?
Kate Northrup:Like, they start where they are, and that in the land of nervous system healing is called titration. One doable action step at a time. And for most of them, they didn't see the full path. Right? Like, that's been the case for me.
Kate Northrup:I've never thought that I would be teaching a program about helping people heal their money for multi 7 figures every year. I've never that was not on my radar. I took one single next best step at a time, and that wisdom applies no matter the economic circumstances. Number six, these people bet on what was working, not what was broken. So while others double down on outdated models, these people who thrive pay attention to what is gaining momentum, and they align their offerings accordingly.
Kate Northrup:So you want to partner with the momentum going on in your market, in your community, whatever it may be. For example, in 2020, a lot of people blew up with online businesses. Right? I was already in that space for a million years, so I've been around. But a ton of people joined this industry, and I was like, woah.
Kate Northrup:Look at them. They saw where the world was going. They were like, oh, people are at home. People are on their devices. People can't go to a live workshop, to a live class in the same way.
Kate Northrup:I'm going to put myself in the way of the momentum rather than try to build in the old way that people did before. Another example is a restaurant that we love in Portland, Maine called LB Kitchen. LB Kitchen was a, you know, go in there and order at the counter or whatever. During 2020, when that wasn't happening anymore, they blew up their take home, like, eat out meals. We spent hundreds of dollars there every week because they were creating healthy, prepackaged foods that we could go and pick up at the window and take home.
Kate Northrup:Online ordering, they like fully made that like really easy and straightforward. They made the whole thing so great, and the food was so delicious and also healthy. It was our go to, and it became like our little favorite outing that we would just go and pick up our stuff. So instead of being like, uh-oh, our business model is broken, they pivoted and they innovated. Now number seven is these folks stayed emotionally present and purpose aligned, which, by the way, requires a healthy nervous system, a resonant nervous system that's that's supple, right, that can move in and out of parasympathetic and sympathetic dominance and between the two that can do the dance between activation and deactivation.
Kate Northrup:And so in fear or hardship, you can still stay connected to your why. You can still stay connected to resonance, to heart coherency, to emotional presence. And the more you do, the more you will be poised and primed to offer the solutions that people need so that you can thrive and so that they can thrive. So staying anchored in your purpose, staying anchored in emotional presence and connection to your why will absolutely be your north star. Number eight, people who thrive financially in times of economic mess use constraints as creativity instead of fuel.
Kate Northrup:Now I can tell you, I have a lot of freedom in my life, and we have been navigating moving to a new city. And at first, when we were navigating this, we were like, we could go literally anywhere. Mike and I run our own company. We could go anywhere. We can work from anywhere.
Kate Northrup:There is there are absolutely no constraints in terms of where we can live, and that is not actually the easiest situation. We I mean, I'm grateful for it by all means. However, when we have infinite choices, it can create a feeling of, I can't take action because there's too many choices. If you've ever given, you know, a three year old, hey. What do you want for breakfast?
Kate Northrup:You can tell if that is the case. Right? Like, we all do great with more limited choices. And in times of economic instability, we may have more limited choices, which can be the fuel to our creative fire. So instead of seeing limitations as dead ends, you can use them as creative prompts, like I have less capital.
Kate Northrup:I have leaner models. I don't have a store of a physical storefront. Maybe you would then pivot to digital. So whatever it is, allow any constraints or limitations to spark innovation. Number nine, people who thrive economically, financially in times of downturn embrace community and collaboration.
Kate Northrup:Right? So whether it's word-of-mouth marketing on platforms like Etsy or local Facebook groups, people build relational ecosystems around their work and just really around everything. We would not have thrived as a family if it hadn't been for our sweet little neighborhood during the 2020 and 2021. We leaned on each other in beautiful ways, and that supports us economically. That supports us emotionally.
Kate Northrup:We need village. We need community. So use your network as the resource that it is and be collaborative and embrace community. And then number 10, finally, is folks who thrive financially at all times do not wait until they are, quote, unquote, ready. None of us will ever feel ready to do anything.
Kate Northrup:Right? It's never the right time. It's never the right time. But when we take action while we're still learning, our ability to integrate, our ability to refine happens so much faster. So people who are going to thrive during this recession and any other time are the people who get in the game, and they do that by co regulating with safe community, like we have in Good With Money, like we have here in the different spaces that we create, and they get out there, and they do it imperfectly.
Kate Northrup:They just get their hands dirty. They get their feet wet. They trust that clarity and capability will grow through the doing, and it does. You create as you take action, you create something called self efficacy, where your ability to depend on yourself to show up and thrive and be able to get back up when you fall only increases through taking action. So imperfect action always will outpace perfect preparation.
Kate Northrup:So that was a big episode. Here's what I want you to know. You are safe. You are loved. All is well.
Kate Northrup:And with what I have shared today and what we're gonna be talking about in good with money, you are absolutely prepared to weather any economic storm and any storm, quite frankly, in your life financially and otherwise. This is exactly where you need to be. I'm so glad you listened to this episode. If it was helpful for you, please share it with a friend. Take a screenshot.
Kate Northrup:Send me a DM. Post it on your Instagram stories. Let me know what was helpful. Let me me know what action you're taking from this episode. And again, if you've not yet signed up for Good With Money, head over to KateNorthrup.com/good.
Kate Northrup:And I will see you for the most important workshop of the year. Thanks for listening. See you next time.