The Other Half of the Church with Tommy Carreras

Promo: Making Time

You have the same 24 hours in your day as the most accomplished people in the world. So why doesn't it feel that way? Follow along on this special 6 episode series as we take a look at how to make more time. By following biblical principles and taking a look at what you really want, Making Time shares the secret to having all the time you need... with a little help from some friends.

Learn more and download group guides at https://lumivoz.com/making-time/

For questions, comments, or sharing your tips on how to make more time, reach out to [e-mail]

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This month we cover the breakout book, The Other Half of The Church, which has taken the Small Group Network by storm. Join our host Nick Lenzi and guest Tommy Carreras as they help us understand how we can activate our full brain when it comes to our spiritual development inside our group. We learn why we tend to lean into left brain discipleship and four ingredients necessary to develop and maintain a vibrant transformational community. Those 4 are: Joy - True joy found through connection and relationships Attachment - The love of securely attached communities Group Identity - Group identity based on the character of Christ Healthy Correction - A culture of uplifting, healthy correction More About Tommy Carreras: Tommy never had any intention of being in ministry. Jesus found him at 17 and after 6 years figuring out what in the world that meant, he packed everything moved to Ventura CA with his wife, Lauren to work at Mission Church where they served for eight years. Earlier this year they moved to Tennessee to be close to family and work on developing his Done with Stuck curriculum. Tommy is also a contributor to the Small Group Network blog and podcast. Tommy's Website → https://tommycarreras.com 

Creators & Guests

Host

Nick Lenzi

Helping people belong at Hoboken Grace. Podcast host of Reading Lenz on the @smallgrpnetwork's Group Talk Podcast. New episodes every 4th Wednesday.

Guest

Tommy Carreras

got a hunch that trauma-informed churches would be a really good idea. working on that.

What is Reading Lenz With Nick Lenzi?

Small group discussions with Nick Lenzi and guests. Applying practical tips and lessons from other areas of ministry, each month Nick shares insights for your church's group ministry.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;21;16
Speaker 1
Welcome to Group Talk four shows, one podcast from the Small Group Network, focusing on topics relevant to small group ministries. Whether you're in a church of 100 or 10,000, whether you're a volunteer or staff, we want to support, encourage and equip you to lead well. So relax, listen and enjoy reading Lenz with Nick Lenzi

00;00;21;19 - 00;00;40;02
Speaker 2
Hey, Small Group Network. Welcome back to another episode of Reading Lenz We're so glad that you chose to take time to hang out with us. Here's how Reading Lenz works Each month I have a guest with us who is also a smokers point person to share with you insights from books we are reading and what our takeaways were and how we plan to incorporate them into our lives, leadership and our small groups.

00;00;40;04 - 00;00;43;10
Speaker 2
Today we have with us Tommy Carreras back with us again.

00;00;43;12 - 00;00;47;21
Speaker 3
And it feels so good to be back. It really does.

00;00;47;24 - 00;01;04;14
Speaker 2
Awesome. I highly recommend if you haven't yet hear Tommy's first episode on Reading Lenz. I think it was back in March and we did the book Tribe by Sebastian Junger, which was just a killer episode. I think I've told you, Tommy, it was the episode I was that I was like, All right, I know this show is going to work.

00;01;04;18 - 00;01;05;07
Speaker 2
I can move.

00;01;05;07 - 00;01;06;12
Speaker 3
Forward.

00;01;06;15 - 00;01;17;25
Speaker 2
So it's really great that like, you know, you're working out those episodes. And then I feel like that was the episode. I was like, All right, We picked a book that had nothing to do with groups and yet had everything to do with groups. At the same time.

00;01;17;25 - 00;01;22;10
Speaker 3
Concept has been proven to be beautiful for you. Yeah.

00;01;22;12 - 00;01;43;26
Speaker 2
So I thank you for being a part of that journey influencer. So yeah, actually it wasn't Mar was probably way sooner than that. But anyways, either way, just search for Tribe and you'll find it in there. But so since we last talked, Tommy, you have actually moved from you've left Center California to Tennessee. So share with our audience what led to that dude.

00;01;43;26 - 00;02;08;12
Speaker 3
It is so hot here. I left paradise at all. Don't know what I'm saying. You know, it's. I grew up with it. And then it was really okay that I had left it forever. And apparently I was not leaving it forever. Yeah, we my wife and I made what felt like a quick. That's because we couldn't handle the sadness for any longer than we needed to.

00;02;08;14 - 00;02;36;13
Speaker 3
Women were really quick and really large decision to move toward where our family was. We live now a block and a half from my sister in law and my kids cousin, and I'm 2 minutes away from my in-laws and it is really wonderful. I also left the best place with the best people. That's whether. Yes, but like I left my family and they're my church family and it was heartbreaking.

00;02;36;13 - 00;03;01;17
Speaker 3
And I just I realized throughout all of it, too, and it was the right decision. It was good or being obedient. Obedience is often very painful. I learned that. But it was the right kind of pain. It was like, This is weird. I'm calling myself Paul or not, but it was like a Paul and Ephesians like, Oh my gosh, I'll see you because we have like planes and chase time, but this hurts at the deepest level I have and that's a beautiful thing.

00;03;01;19 - 00;03;20;18
Speaker 3
I was really thankful for that. On the way out, I got to leave on the a Beautiful note. I was really thankful for that. But I know that we don't always get the really healthy churches that we're apart. Often it it's heartbreaking when it's not. But this is a really beautiful thing. And so yeah we are on to a new and strange and different adventure for the next season, which is cool.

00;03;20;20 - 00;03;29;20
Speaker 2
That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I want to throw a joke in there too. When you compare yourself apart, it's like you went from Rome to Jerusalem instead of Jerusalem to Rome.

00;03;29;27 - 00;03;30;26
Speaker 3
That is true. I mean, he is.

00;03;31;03 - 00;03;32;28
Speaker 2
Even closer to Nashville.

00;03;32;29 - 00;03;39;29
Speaker 3
But where culture shock there are more than 5% Christian. And that's a lot is amazing and a lot of factors that tell.

00;03;40;05 - 00;03;46;19
Speaker 2
Us what our like coast mentality though like there's still so many lost people.

00;03;46;21 - 00;03;47;03
Speaker 3
In there.

00;03;47;06 - 00;03;48;02
Speaker 2
It's true.

00;03;48;04 - 00;03;49;14
Speaker 3
It's true. Yeah.

00;03;49;16 - 00;03;53;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it's between five and like 20%, you know.

00;03;53;08 - 00;03;55;18
Speaker 3
Like big difference. Yeah.

00;03;55;21 - 00;04;04;27
Speaker 2
What the statistic is, but exactly. Yeah. Cool. So you move back to Nashville, you're closer to family. Did you move for the family or is there something else that you had in mind? Why you move back?

00;04;05;01 - 00;04;33;02
Speaker 3
We really moved for the family, but there is some amazing timing that worked out in a crazy way as a much longer story. And we're going to have a really long conversation trying to be sure, even on practicing. But there are some things that we got to start doing at Mission and in concurrence with and in relationship with a guy who was at mission, he and his wife and created some recovery relapse prevention counselor training.

00;04;33;05 - 00;04;52;08
Speaker 3
35 years ago. It was like the cutting edge of brain science at the time, which is it's not cutting edge anymore, but it's like it's been in the works for so long and they ported it over what they learned, which was wildly effective, super exciting, and it changed how they did. Recovery Ministry is incredible, but then they actually ported it over to the church folks.

00;04;52;08 - 00;05;19;23
Speaker 3
They're like, Well, they're all addicts too, but theirs are socially. Their addictions are socially acceptable, but everybody's got the same problem at the core. How do we change people's hearts? I think we have something to offer. And they poured it over to the church world and it's been in churches for a long time. But we started this incredible relationship and we actually, my wife and I, are getting the chance to do like kind of take up the mantle of what they've created and what they've figured out and be able to kind of carry the baton.

00;05;19;23 - 00;05;42;23
Speaker 3
Now they're older and ready to do the rest a little bit, but now we get to carry the baton for it and figure out what it looks like to implement this amazing experiences, group experiences and training and all these things that they've created in churches like ours and like we have been. And it is it has been super exciting so far.

00;05;42;25 - 00;06;07;01
Speaker 2
I'm super excited for that because I really respect you as one of the fresh young minds inside of the group world, which is why I kind of wanted you for this one too. And geeking out on on the science I know that you're going to really enjoy, but to be able to take something as serious as that recovery and be able to bring group elements to it, like I'm super excited for you and what what you can develop and then the bonuses.

00;06;07;01 - 00;06;13;29
Speaker 2
You're in Nashville, so hopefully you find the publisher that kind of helps get this out to the audience that needs be but be exciting.

00;06;13;29 - 00;06;14;28
Speaker 3
Yeah, so they're.

00;06;14;28 - 00;06;17;06
Speaker 2
Interested to reach out to you. What's what's that look like?

00;06;17;09 - 00;06;29;10
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I turned on my website as a shout out, but yeah, we've got a couple of things starting or in the beginning phases of it, but ready to get ready to get some stuff on and we've got some cool stuff in the works. But yeah, cool.

00;06;29;13 - 00;06;35;12
Speaker 2
All right, well let's dive into today's book. So we have a hit book that we're doing today. Tom, I want you to tell me about the book that we're doing.

00;06;35;12 - 00;06;54;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, this apparently has taken the world by storm, and I'm so glad that it has. And I'm so glad that you picked me. I feel like I got picked somewhere up first for kickball because I'm, like, so excited about this book because it puts so many words to so many things that I have been trying to figure out and working on in some other ways.

00;06;54;26 - 00;07;20;18
Speaker 3
It just was like, Oh, well, hear all the words you've been looking for. It is called the other half of the church, and it is all about spiritual stagnation and brain science and what Christian community looks like and how we were designed for it. And it is fantastic. It's written by a spiritual formation and discipleship guide. And then also guy that calls himself a neuro theologian, which you win the title contest.

00;07;20;20 - 00;07;29;18
Speaker 3
Jim Wilder That's pretty much the coolest thing I've ever heard of. Maybe that makes me uncool, and I think that's cool that is just amazing.

00;07;29;20 - 00;07;32;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, it does sound like a lot of school debt.

00;07;32;16 - 00;07;50;19
Speaker 3
That's a good point. That's a really good point. So maybe we could just become that Now that he wrote the book for us or something like that. But it is it is beautiful. And I feel like we should all be shouting it from the rooftops because it if it gives this hard proof in so many ways and what I'm talking about, that's the whole way through.

00;07;50;27 - 00;08;14;18
Speaker 3
But it is this hard and clear proof that it's just a little weird. But like, we were right, all of us people fighting for these slow and messy and, like, sometimes very unproductive feeling relationships in the church and going, No, we think this is like priority one. We've been yelling about it for so long. And apparently we were right.

00;08;14;21 - 00;08;15;20
Speaker 3
Yeah, shocking.

00;08;15;20 - 00;08;22;16
Speaker 2
I know. It's also science describing or proving was what has been true in the scriptures for so long.

00;08;22;20 - 00;08;30;19
Speaker 3
Right. And finally giving us a way to see it through our Western modern eyes. It's true. Exactly. It's been there the whole time.

00;08;30;21 - 00;08;47;16
Speaker 2
I want to give a big shout out to Chris Standridge, who was the first person to post this in our small group network Facebook group. Just one more reason to be there. You can get awesome book recommendations. So he posted this in August and literally six weeks later, here we are doing this, this podcast.

00;08;47;18 - 00;08;48;13
Speaker 3
Well done, Chris.

00;08;48;15 - 00;09;11;26
Speaker 2
Steve talked about this on his podcast inside Saddleback a few weeks ago as well. I know there discipleship pastors are walking through that. You get to hear from Brandon inside that episode, which was really good. And so we're going to attempt to take a stab at this as well today. This episode going to be a little bit different of reading lines and that usually we focus a lot more on application and how we applied, what we learn from these books.

00;09;11;28 - 00;09;25;25
Speaker 2
I got to be honest, this book is so fresh and I'm in the middle of a group launch myself. I don't think I've even had time to teach some of these principles. Some of it's stuff that we've always been doing, and you get to see the Oh, that's why that works so well. Definitely point out some of that stuff.

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;40;08
Speaker 2
But now I think you guys are going to really enjoy this, this book. So let me just give you a little bit of a book summary here. They'll give you an idea of where we're going to go in today's episode because we're going to be doing more of an outline kind of focus for today. But in the other half of the church, Pastor Michael Hendricks, he's the group's guy.

00;09;40;08 - 00;10;06;00
Speaker 2
He's from flat irons and neuro theologian Jim Hendricks, obviously the brain guy, couples brain science in the Bible to identify how to overcome spiritual stagnation by living full brained faith. They also identify four ingredients Those four ingredients are what we're going to really do in this episode develop and maintain a vibrant, transformational community where spiritual formation occurs, relationships flourish, and toxic spread of narcissism and this radical.

00;10;06;00 - 00;10;29;12
Speaker 2
And we're not going to touch on the narcissism piece today, but this is just another reason jump into this book, because there's there's a lot of depth to this book. And I also feel like it's a book that like I know I'm not going to do once because I feel like I need to go back and reread it, which is really interesting because when I do books for this podcast, I try to read them at a good depth so that I can talk about them.

00;10;29;12 - 00;10;33;05
Speaker 2
But this one still, like I don't know that I was meant to understand brain science.

00;10;33;05 - 00;10;42;20
Speaker 3
Like this was like a first phase and then apply it all and then go back through and realize, Oh gosh, five more phases and then chase two and then apply it slowly at a time.

00;10;42;24 - 00;11;06;18
Speaker 2
You know, this might be an old reference for for some of our audience, but I like to compare myself to Tim Taylor from Home Improvement. Every episode. He'd go over to his really wise and smart neighbor, Wilson, and he would go get life advice, and then Tim would come back and he would try to tell that life advice to his wife, Jill, and it would just be a jumbled mess.

00;11;06;24 - 00;11;08;19
Speaker 3
And so that's what like.

00;11;08;20 - 00;11;22;19
Speaker 2
A lot of my life is, is like so be trying to regurgitate these things that I've been learning. But when it comes to neuroscience, we're going to try our best at this. But all the more reason I'm going to pass this to you, Tommy, why is it called the other half the church?

00;11;22;19 - 00;11;46;29
Speaker 3
The whole idea is that we have been living out a left brained Christianity, primarily left brain Christianity in the church, and it really goes back to the Enlightenment era. So we became I love this quote. We became brains on a stick in the 1700s. It was I think, therefore I am. And that was a radical shift that formulated what the West is.

00;11;47;01 - 00;12;15;02
Speaker 3
But it was a radical shift in thinking there was a huge overcorrection. And now we see that it was this correction to go, okay, well, let's figure out what thinking really means and let's become intensely logical, have a right answer for everything. Apologetics became something that we're saying. I don't think it is the same kind of thing before, as in I have to disprove your thing because you proved this and we've got all these proofs and everybody else is like, Dude, the proof is in the pudding.

00;12;15;03 - 00;12;37;16
Speaker 3
They're like, No, no, the proof is in the ingredients list. And then there's a very thorough explanation of why the ingredients interact with each other. Yeah. And then everybody else for the rest of human history was like, So it's this idea that we shifted so far and that we've become so obsessed with this idea. That transformation comes from information transfer and good choices.

00;12;37;18 - 00;12;57;10
Speaker 3
Yeah, that now we have to overcorrect back to the other side. But the beautiful thing is you don't have to go backwards. I and I really feel like this is happening because you see the words brain science and like, everything right now is like anxiety. We'll talk about brains, science, and it's like productivity. We're going to talk about brain science, like cooking and brain science, and it's everywhere.

00;12;57;10 - 00;13;21;12
Speaker 3
But what it is actually like is God calling us back to something that's been true the whole time? Yeah. And he is just saying now. I mean, I help him. Silly Westerners and modern people hear it with the words that you made up the science because I designed you this way. And so this idea is that we've been a primarily left brain dominant church, and that's because the left brain is the logical cause and effect side of our brain.

00;13;21;12 - 00;13;38;15
Speaker 3
It's where we actually form thoughts, it's where we speak. And then our right brain is the place that all of the other things happen. And it's actually the primary part of our brain because thoughts travel in a specific pattern. And so if you think about where sensory input happens, you get slowed down a half speed for all. Is it?

00;13;38;15 - 00;14;02;02
Speaker 3
It helps because it's been like we've been through it five times. So I can actually say it out loud. The idea is that sensory input happens all over my body in a thought travels through my brain stem, the very primitive, ancient survival part of my brain, this one that's keeping me alive. And then it goes through the right back part, travels to the right front part, moves to the left front, and then the left back.

00;14;02;02 - 00;14;24;07
Speaker 3
And literally every thought we have goes in that pattern. And so the right brain is primary and predominant also because it functions faster, about 15% faster than the left side of our brain. Because also what's faster, a picture or a word? Well, a picture. And that's what the whole right side of your brain functions in pictures, memories, emotions, feelings and attachments.

00;14;24;14 - 00;14;46;14
Speaker 3
And that's the idea. It works faster, it works first, and it also governs things like and this is a crazy thing to say, but it's actually neurologically true. It governs your character. It's who you are when no one's looking, but it's also who you are before you have a chance to act like who you think you should have acted like because you didn't do any thinking, the guy cut you off and then you flicked him off.

00;14;46;17 - 00;15;00;10
Speaker 3
That wasn't your left brain. That was your right brain. You know, it's this it's the quick part of you because it's the one that's baked into who you are. And it functions on a different level than the left brain, which is what we primarily aim at.

00;15;00;10 - 00;15;20;07
Speaker 2
This is a book that you read and you don't even finish it and you start explaining it to others, which which is going to tell you just how the brain works. Because the first few chapters, they do an excellent job of giving you a tangible way of how this works. The way I've been explaining this to my friends is it's like when you bite into a cookie, right?

00;15;20;09 - 00;15;36;27
Speaker 2
And you take a bite of that cookie and you you taste how it tastes, but then eventually it gets to the other side of your brain and you realize, Oh, this tastes just like my grandmother used to make it right. You taste it first before that memory comes to you that say, Oh, this tastes like X, Y, and Z.

00;15;36;27 - 00;15;56;06
Speaker 2
Or when you're listening to music right, and you're taking it in and then you're like, Oh, this reminds me of when I was at that concert or when I was in this moment, or I was, you know, I had this experience like one of the things it talks about is how our right brain goes six revolutions a second, whereas the left brain only does five.

00;15;56;06 - 00;16;03;09
Speaker 2
And so your feeling way more faster than you are thinking about and processing information so.

00;16;03;11 - 00;16;25;12
Speaker 3
Well, and it's incredible because what that tells us too, is that it's as simple as even like that. I feel grandma's house. Yeah. Before I. I realize what I'm thinking. So what? The left brain is constantly trying to do is make sense of all the stuff it just experienced on the other side. And so what you're doing is you're trying to catch up always.

00;16;25;12 - 00;16;45;19
Speaker 3
And that's why the ancient poets in the whole entire Bible. And that's why was so much poetry in the Old Testament, too. If you went that way, it's like, we can't explain it to you, so we're going to write a song. I can't explain it to you. So I'm going to turn crafted in a poem because it's this other side of us that says, I don't say it like it's I'll describe it.

00;16;45;26 - 00;16;49;03
Speaker 3
I want to feel it because it's such a deeper part of us.

00;16;49;05 - 00;17;05;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And so, like, let's say, if it's not obvious, what is the issue then with the left brain discipleship? Yeah, what's interesting about this is I don't think anyone purely does left brain, but I think we develop systems that are way more left brain than they are. Right, which I think we're going to get into.

00;17;05;06 - 00;17;27;12
Speaker 3
But with tensions and the issue of it is that we're intentional in all our left brain activities and we're unintentional with most of the right brain or we understand that it's important, but we actually we just way underestimate how important it is. And the problem is that all the left brain activities that we do And so when we think about left brain, we think again, logical.

00;17;27;19 - 00;17;49;22
Speaker 3
So we think a good message on the weekend, like we're touching pieces and parts of the right brain. A good story taps into the right brain, an actual emotional thing that drives us home and engages my emotions and my beliefs at the core of me. That's all right brain stuff. But somebody's saying these are the six reasons why that is all left brain and it's all informational.

00;17;49;23 - 00;18;13;00
Speaker 3
And so, so many of the things we do, even even when we get in a group that's a right brain environment, hopefully. But then what we do is talk about ideas. Yeah, and we do spiritual practices. But what are they? They're alone, which is primarily less brain because I'm trying to digest and understand the Bible. And so all of these things happen to be mostly left brain.

00;18;13;00 - 00;18;31;28
Speaker 3
And the problem is the left brain is good, but only in the fertile soil of right brain health. Yeah. And so this idea is that characters formed over here. And so if we're trying to form character with left brain activities, if we have forgotten the place where characters actually formed in the right brain, then we have no shot at the left brain, things working.

00;18;31;28 - 00;18;34;10
Speaker 3
So it's almost like we're bailing out a sinking ship at that point.

00;18;34;10 - 00;18;57;13
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. And let me read two quotes from this book that I think really explain this process. Left brain discipleship emphasizes beliefs, doctrine, willpower, and strategies, but neglects right brain loving attachments, joy, emotional moment and identity. And then one other one is, if I want to obey Jesus, I need to focus on right brain skills that help me love him and receive his love.

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;22;02
Speaker 2
My behavior will then take care of itself. Our brains are designed to change us through love, and I just love. He doesn't really a good job of using scripture in this to show you even how Jesus is trying to teach. Ian, Just what do you know? Yeah, because, I mean, just like everything, it's always coming back to your faith, your love for me, love me, love others that we see in Scripture.

00;19;22;08 - 00;19;46;21
Speaker 2
I think one of the thing that's really worth talking about that, you know, on I hear this, what's the issue with Love brand discipleship? You know, as we answer this question, I can't help but get this out of my brain. It's going to sound like we're bragging on the small group network founder here. But Steve Layton in his book Small Groups with Purpose, one of the things he's trying to get through to us that he's repeating over and over again, you come to the lobby, you come to a line, you come to any of the trainings that we have.

00;19;46;23 - 00;20;11;07
Speaker 2
He wants you to have balanced groups, right? So they have the finances which are notorious. It's out of whack. So worship, discipleship, fellowship, ministry and mission. I'm sorry if I got this wrong. I know that every year redefines those differently, but if we're purely focused on discipleship, we're missing out on those for other areas. Like we've got to get out and share the word with others.

00;20;11;07 - 00;20;40;11
Speaker 2
We've got to use our gifts that he's given us to love others and love God. And we need to express that love through worship. And I just think it's one of those things that like it's just a great example right off the bat of being able to be more holistic inside your group. So be thinking about like it's great that you want to educate your people of your church, but if you're just trying to educate them, I think you're missing out on them getting the full experience of what God might have for them.

00;20;40;11 - 00;20;57;22
Speaker 3
And what the reality is too. If you look at the model of Jesus, he would send them out, send the disciples outlet's say, and then they would come back and then they would say, Well, this thing happened is crazy. And whoa, wow. And he was like, Yeah, that was crazy. That was really cool. And then he would say, I'm going to teach you a quick thing.

00;20;57;22 - 00;21;15;11
Speaker 3
And it's a nugget because they're walking around experience. They've grappled with it, they've wrestled with it, they've probably been hurt by it or confused by it. And then he connects with them in the moment, brings it back to that. And this is later in the book. It gives us an example, but then it goes, Let me explain what you just experienced.

00;21;15;17 - 00;21;31;26
Speaker 3
And that's the thing. I think this the whole like are you left brain to right brained, never asked that question again. You are whole brain whether you like it or not. It's just how healthy your side is. It's not like, Oh, I'm more logical, I'm less brain and everybody's the same. And it doesn't. It doesn't. You got a whole brain.

00;21;31;28 - 00;21;58;12
Speaker 3
But this, this idea, let's help. But the idea is it's just like your thought that you have an experience and logic in there as an experience and then explain it with the left. And that's actually a really good example, is we actually have to give people experiences. It's not like, well, creatives are right brained or emotional, wishy washy poets or right brain.

00;21;58;15 - 00;22;22;23
Speaker 3
I don't know, everybody's right brain. It's not emotional, it's not overly wishy washy, it's not creative, it's experiential. Yeah, it speaks the language of experience and this speaks the language of language. And so we're always trying to put words to our experiences. So that's a good model for actually how we can set up discipleship environments, because who said discipleship was teaching information in the first place?

00;22;22;23 - 00;22;34;12
Speaker 3
You know, we so often define that as like, Well, let me give you the theology to explain this experience. You've had like, well, the last 10% of discipleship, because that's that how big that part of your brain is. Yeah.

00;22;34;14 - 00;22;54;10
Speaker 2
And a lot of this is too is tracking with one of my other favorite kind of small group books is transformation of Groups by Ed Stetler and yes, Eric Geiger. And he really walks through or they really walk through how it's not about knowledge transfer, it's not about behavior modification. And I love how he uses the rich young ruler.

00;22;54;10 - 00;23;11;25
Speaker 2
And I can't remember the other example that he uses because the other one is like, what do I need to do? What do I need to do? And the other one's like, What do I need to know? What do I need to know? But it's about transformation. It's about that faith in Christ that that obedience that comes with that and accepting his grace.

00;23;11;27 - 00;23;31;10
Speaker 3
As well in allowing your trust structure to change. So we talk all the time and this has been like a massive realizations. Remember the last 18 months or so, It's like we talk all the time about, Hey, it's not about progress, it's not how it is about progress. I'm a perfectionist about progress, not about behavior modification. It's about transforming how the heart has to change.

00;23;31;10 - 00;23;45;26
Speaker 3
And we like, Oh, it's out of our overflow, the heart, the mouth speaks, and then what do we do? We tell people we should probably stop doing that. Yeah, well, we give people behavior modification. We're like, Well, let's give you some information that wasn't even in the thing. That wasn't one of the two options. What am I how does a heart change?

00;23;45;26 - 00;24;04;19
Speaker 3
And this actually gives us the information that just illuminates and turns the prism on what what Jesus has been saying the whole time. Because he says, yeah, you'll be obedient. You'll do what I say if you remain connected to me. And right, Yeah, if I believe and think that I'm connected. No, no. If it's, it's I'm deeply attached to you.

00;24;04;20 - 00;24;32;04
Speaker 3
If I have a clear love relationship with God and with the people that now embody God around me. And so we just have to know where transformation happens. And it's not this conceptual place called the heart. And your heart's also not something you can put into words. It's an actual part of us, and we have to learn how to tap into it or else will miss out on so much of what God is trying to give us.

00;24;32;06 - 00;24;33;20
Speaker 3
Yeah, So yeah.

00;24;33;23 - 00;24;34;20
Speaker 2
So good timing.

00;24;34;24 - 00;24;37;24
Speaker 3
So this is so fun. I love this book, man. So.

00;24;37;27 - 00;24;42;04
Speaker 2
So. All right. Before we get going here, let's take a break to hear from Jason.

00;24;42;06 - 00;24;58;24
Speaker 1
Happy fourth to all you small group point people out there. Jason Barnes of his group talk producer. And we are getting closer and closer to our big event of the year. This is going to be something you are not going to want to miss. The Small group Network is very excited to present the Fall virtual lobby on October 7th.

00;24;58;26 - 00;25;17;29
Speaker 1
Our biggest and most popular event of the year is now going to be a virtual event this fall. The theme for the conference is leadership and will feature main session speakers Bill Donahue, Deval Ford and more. We will also be hosting over ten breakout sessions, all of which will be available on demand following the live event for all registered attendees.

00;25;18;02 - 00;25;37;17
Speaker 1
Come Ready for World class leadership development, amazing breakout sessions, plenty of discussions and Q&A time and a chance to make some great new friends. Check out our Facebook group or a small group networking dot com forward slash virtual lobby. Again that small group network dot com for its last virtual lobby to register. Now back to reading.

00;25;37;17 - 00;25;56;10
Speaker 2
Lions Welcome back. Today we're going to talk through four ingredients necessary to develop and maintain vibrant transformation in community. And so let me just start by sharing what the four are and then we'll dive into each one as we go along. But let's start upfront with what they are. So the first one is Joy, and it's the true joy is found in connection and relationship.

00;25;56;13 - 00;26;19;08
Speaker 2
The second one is attachment, which they use the word hassid. So you're going to hear this word hassid a lot and we'll get into what that means. But it tested love of securely attached communities. And the third one is group identity. And group identity is based in the character of Christ. And then the last one is Healthy Correction, which is a culture of uplifting, healthy corrections.

00;26;19;08 - 00;26;23;24
Speaker 2
So let's start with joy. Why is Joy an important ingredient to our transformation?

00;26;23;25 - 00;26;47;17
Speaker 3
Yeah, this was fascinating because what I learned right away, because they lead with it right away, is not like an idea of why joy is important. It's just the fact that our brains have specifically designed circuits and pathways in them that are all the back, right right there in this center. This part of our brain that is almost is one of the first parts to develop.

00;26;47;19 - 00;27;07;21
Speaker 3
It's actually the first. This is amazing. It's the first thing that a baby starts to be able to realize, besides, am I going to survive or not? That's the first thing. But then the moment they come out and are like, What is the world? A baby starts to learn that somebody can find joy in me or disgust. And there's no in between.

00;27;07;21 - 00;27;32;17
Speaker 3
It's insane and it's terrifying, to be clear. But how do you transfer joy to a baby? Insecurity, Yes. To yes. Smile like it's literally to one of the most basic things in our brain, the circuitry that our brains are built upon, the rest of our brain develops over the top of the circuitry that is based on smiles, happy eyes.

00;27;32;19 - 00;27;51;16
Speaker 3
And this is all like how it works. And it lights up like crazy when we get smiled at and we see happy eyes like, Oh, somebody's glad to see me and I can tell. And also a warm, welcoming voice like it's those things that are the rest of our brain and our identity is built on it is crazy.

00;27;51;16 - 00;28;06;17
Speaker 3
And so this facial circuitry is and that's why you walk into a room and ask you if you know anybody and you're going to a party or get together or small group. And what do you do? You desperately scan the room for somebody that you know, because then they look at you and they go, Oh, hey, and they smile at you.

00;28;06;22 - 00;28;26;11
Speaker 3
Yeah. And you realize it's all going to be okay. Somebody cares that I'm here. Yeah. And all of that is pictures. It's all smiles and rejoices and feelings and none of it is somebody going, okay, I'm going to walk into the room and then. Okay, well, they think they're happy to see you don't think that. You just know that because you have designed circuitry just for that.

00;28;26;11 - 00;28;38;10
Speaker 3
And it is amazing. And that's the place that joy comes from. Like, it's not a feeling, it's an emotion, It's not an idea. It is that experience that can it's sad to be with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;28;38;12 - 00;28;57;10
Speaker 2
I love to in the book how they linked it to how God does this for us. And yeah, this was a really important verse when I was growing up because I remember our lead pastor used to repeat us all the time, like this was part of his benediction every single Sunday. But it was this is from numbers 624 through 26.

00;28;57;12 - 00;29;27;10
Speaker 2
I'm sure you've heard the words The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his voice to shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn His face towards you and give you peace like it. It's just a beautiful example of that joy as well. Yeah, it's just so fascinating. Did you find it interesting, too, when he was talking about how our brains are also smart enough to know a screen and that how much we need like actual physical face in front of us that like to.

00;29;27;10 - 00;29;27;29
Speaker 3
Read you.

00;29;28;00 - 00;29;39;10
Speaker 2
Really experience that joy. And that's another just thing. Adding on to how this like screen addiction is actually hurting because our brains realize it's not necessarily.

00;29;39;13 - 00;29;41;27
Speaker 3
Real, it's just not the.

00;29;41;27 - 00;29;44;19
Speaker 2
Same for those who are watching. I'm using like air quotes.

00;29;44;21 - 00;29;45;28
Speaker 3
But.

00;29;46;01 - 00;29;50;08
Speaker 2
Which is ironic because all my guests are over Christmas.

00;29;50;10 - 00;30;17;14
Speaker 3
It's true. But yeah, no, no, it's unbelievable. I mean, it's it's incredible how good our brains are deciphering like what they really need. And because our hearts have been desperate for that same joy, like desperate for it, like our identity is built upon it. So we've been desperate for it since the first moment we were here. And so it makes sense that the best thing that our brains do is decipher.

00;30;17;15 - 00;30;35;24
Speaker 3
Is that a real smile or is somebody really here? And is that the real thing now? It's not the real thing. And like our brains have not caught up with what Zoom is, and that's okay. It's still better. It's a better tools and text. It's a richer medium, but there's literally nothing that replaces somebody smiling at me in person.

00;30;35;24 - 00;30;37;13
Speaker 3
It's it's unbelievable. Yeah.

00;30;37;18 - 00;30;53;27
Speaker 2
And then some other things to highlight in this chapter that I thought were really important is the interesting. Looking back on my own journey, I wish I had more time to share this, some of these stories, and I'm sure we'll get to them in future podcasts. But I love these talks about self feeling. Joy means our right brain is functioning smoothly.

00;30;54;00 - 00;31;15;19
Speaker 2
Like I definitely had periods where I've been in ruts and I can tell you that I'm not experiencing joy at all and not like I'm in miserable situations. It's just that like that feeling numb, feeling burnt out like and I'm sure others in ministry, maybe you've felt that way before. And so, like, use that as a guardrail. Like, man, I can't experience joy anymore.

00;31;15;22 - 00;31;40;10
Speaker 2
And sometimes it's a protection mechanism where, you know, I'm trying to shield myself from the loneliness I'm feeling or shield myself from the disappointment or, you know, those negative emotions. And when you start cheering yourself to negative emotions, you do it to the other side as well. So something to really think through. And then the other thing it talks about too, is like trying to do emotionally.

00;31;40;10 - 00;31;48;03
Speaker 2
Taxing work with an empty tank is like running a marathon without even here, without eating food for a month. Eventually your body will shut down. The lack.

00;31;48;03 - 00;32;02;18
Speaker 3
Of energy. Oh, so it was just so obvious at that point. And the amazing thing is, too, that marathons are hard. And so I think that's a good example of also what joy is. And we always talk about, I think in the church, you know, like the joy is not happiness or we're going to be happy all the time.

00;32;02;18 - 00;32;23;09
Speaker 3
Really no joy. It's much deeper. And then we try and make it into words and we're like, okay, I can't really describe the difference, you know, when you see it, but the fact is you actually know it when you feel it. But that's because the circuitry, Joy, doesn't come from a decision that I make. I can't send a thought from my left side to my right side that says it's okay, be joyful.

00;32;23;09 - 00;32;46;28
Speaker 3
This is not a thing. It's physically impossible. Joy is a relational experience. I was going to say feeling. And then it's just emotions. None of those it's a joy is literally a neurologically relational experience that only comes through relationship and its relationship with God, an active and real and personal relationship with God. But also and this is a theme throughout the whole book.

00;32;46;29 - 00;33;04;17
Speaker 3
And it's it's what I've realized is, is the beauty of all of this is what in God do to send the best message and finally make the world right. You became a person with a face, and then what did that person with a face do? He left and he said, Here's the baton. It's yours now. And then. What did he say?

00;33;04;17 - 00;33;08;20
Speaker 3
He said, You're my messengers now. He said, You're my body on earth. And bodies have.

00;33;08;22 - 00;33;09;08
Speaker 2
Faces.

00;33;09;12 - 00;33;32;11
Speaker 3
Faces. And so literally the face of God shining and like just blowing my mind, the face of God shining on a person is is literally I'm going to take a big swing at this is not ever really big ever made complete until the face of a person who represents him is also smiled at you like he never I'm just I got to do it.

00;33;32;11 - 00;33;51;15
Speaker 3
And we're rich people. This is like this is preacher man, right? So but but literally it means that we get to speak on behalf of God, not with words, but with a smile. It's amazing. We just get to be there and then represent God in that moment. And that is how we designed it and that is the completion of it.

00;33;51;15 - 00;34;09;02
Speaker 3
Because also he never separated the love of God and the love of people. We have to love both. We have to experience love from boss or else both of them are incomplete on their own. And it's like a game changer when you expect when you start to realize all of that. So this matters way more than I even thought.

00;34;09;02 - 00;34;13;06
Speaker 3
And I. I thought about it a lot before. Yeah.

00;34;13;12 - 00;34;34;07
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm also sitting over smiling because I'm having this thought of I think so much of joy and I relate it to Christmas and I just get this. This is going to mean a lot to my coworker Sarah, because she starts collection of Hallmark Channel and like July. Yes, but. And I'm like, I'm a Grinch when it comes to Christmas, right?

00;34;34;09 - 00;34;46;04
Speaker 2
But like, thinking about this chapter and the joy and God's intentions with that, it really makes me then like singing joy to the world is going to be so much different now and what it.

00;34;46;04 - 00;34;46;24
Speaker 3
Means to.

00;34;46;24 - 00;34;55;09
Speaker 2
People and what what that message is, which is probably what I should have picked up on Christmas long ago. But there's will save the rest for the counselor, you know.

00;34;55;11 - 00;35;15;08
Speaker 3
But yeah, that's what to take a dark turn on that though it will get dark because Because why not? Well, but the reality is too, like so many of my experience or feelings around Christmas or all of that nostalgia is built in all of this relationship right? Like, that's why it's so good. It's not because of the colors and the lattes and the whatever.

00;35;15;08 - 00;35;49;10
Speaker 3
And the pumpkin spice bubble is none of that. It's because of the feelings surrounding it. That's all relational. And that is why this is the dark turn. That is why the majority of relapses happen at Christmas time. Yeah, because the experience of actual joy that's relational and how we were designed for it. The loss of that is absolutely by far clearly the most devastating thing, not just for a soul like for the human brain that runs the rest of you.

00;35;49;10 - 00;36;12;06
Speaker 3
It is, it is actually functionally and physically destructive. The loneliness is. It is. Yeah, it would actually kill people to be really clear. And so all of that is true. And that's why Christmas is such a big deal, because we have all this nostalgia and it's all relational, and then you take that away or somebody dies or the family, like the divorce happens and it is earth shaking.

00;36;12;06 - 00;36;15;02
Speaker 3
So anyway, it's dark. Turn my bad boy. You went there.

00;36;15;03 - 00;36;15;27
Speaker 2
So she's gone.

00;36;15;27 - 00;36;17;07
Speaker 3
But let's keep going.

00;36;17;12 - 00;36;51;21
Speaker 2
But that's actually that's that's like my story, right? So my parents divorced when I was five. And so Christmas for me was always no attachment. It was constantly being thrown around like, I need to get my time with this for this day and a thing. And just like I just want us to all be one together. Right? And it's interesting how long some of that stuff takes to actually surface, but I think it transfers perfectly into this next point, which is attachment or has it so has it means this the Hebrew word meaning to endure covenant love.

00;36;51;24 - 00;37;04;10
Speaker 2
Another way to describe it is loving attachment like a family member, and it's translated in the Bible several different ways. So the different ways are great love, loyal, kindness, loving, kindness, faithful love. You know, what's what stood out to you in the section and why is it important?

00;37;04;14 - 00;37;25;05
Speaker 3
Well, I love that he mentioned it to capture has said Paul in first grade and 13 says well, it's like a got day, which is the best word we've got now. But it's also like this. And he takes all the first Corinthians 13 to describe this powerful force. And it's like, this is just love. And also it is the only thing that matters.

00;37;25;05 - 00;37;43;01
Speaker 3
I can do all these other things. If you think about it, you transfer some of those things that he says, I could do this, this and this. But if I don't have love, if I don't have a deep attachment with God and others, I got nothing. Take that to all the left brain activities of the church and you got one dinger of a rebuke.

00;37;43;03 - 00;38;04;12
Speaker 3
Ouch. But it's true. Like you can have a great sermon with apologetics, but if you don't have a deep, abiding attachment and the experiences that with God and with others doesn't matter, it's ineffective to anything about that. And so that but what stood out to me in this, too, is actually what he said about the formation of the brain.

00;38;04;12 - 00;38;23;11
Speaker 3
Again, when you think about a baby's brain, essentially the prefrontal cortex, which is the last part of the brain to get worked on, it's the thinking part, but it also has the logical left side and the experiential right side. And the only way that is formed is by forming the back side of the brain. First, right? So it's these unconscious parts.

00;38;23;11 - 00;38;51;11
Speaker 3
It starts with joy and it leads to this attachment. And literally the way that the frontal cortex looks at brain scans is, it looks like three faces interacting with each other. And who are those three faces? It is a loving mother and a loving father deeply attaching giving themselves to a baby with no identity, no self-understanding. A baby doesn't know that they're a different person.

00;38;51;18 - 00;39;13;12
Speaker 3
Mom and dad literally like it takes a while to go on my own. I have a hand, right? And that's what that is. It's the brain building forward. And but those like that third face in the frontal cortex is the self-identity and the self-worth and the self-image of a baby being born out of the loving sacrifice and attachment of its caregivers.

00;39;13;12 - 00;39;31;25
Speaker 3
It's ridiculous. So it's this I'm skipping to the next chapter. I because, like, that's but that's where our identity comes from. And it's from this attachment. And it is. I love how he describes it as relational glue also. And this concept of loyalty, it's a loyalty that defies logic to which the loyalty of God to stupid people like us.

00;39;31;25 - 00;40;03;08
Speaker 3
That defies logic. Yeah. And that's the same defying, defiant love that we're supposed to have. That's why we pray for our enemies. It's a relational glue that is so countercultural. It changes everything. And it's the kindness of God is the attachment of God as the loving sacrifice of God that leads to our repentance. It's not the understanding that, well, the complexity of my sin means that it'll probably have this effect on me, not the kindness of God and the willing attachment of Him to us that leads us to repentance.

00;40;03;08 - 00;40;10;22
Speaker 3
It's all just baked right in there, and we just put it in our brains because that's how it works and it's fantastic. Yeah.

00;40;10;24 - 00;40;30;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. Let me read this quote. This I think this one's really good too, of talking about attachments is attachment is the strongest force in the human brain. It's not an emotion, although we feel it strongly in attachment runs deeper in the brain below. Willful control. Attachment is the best word scientists could find in. This is what the point you talked about of working with people together and creatures to their parents.

00;40;31;00 - 00;40;49;18
Speaker 2
It produces enduring care for well-being. For another attachment is life giving forever bond with no mechanism in the brain to on glue us if God has an enduring love for us that brings us good. The only force in the human brain that can understand such lasting kindness and care is the brain's attachment system.

00;40;49;20 - 00;40;53;15
Speaker 3
Like just really such a good part.

00;40;53;18 - 00;40;56;16
Speaker 2
It's so beautifully written.

00;40;56;20 - 00;41;16;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's just. It's just like putting the thing together right now. You think about the difference. What's the difference of a human baby versus the deer, Right? A deer pops out, walk in the eating, whatever, and it's like, Thanks, Mom. And it goes about its life and it needs mom, but it doesn't need mom and an attachment kind of way.

00;41;16;27 - 00;41;37;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, because they don't have that. It's not a gift that a deer has been given, right? We have it. But if you think about and this is I'm skipping ahead to the same chapter as long good chapter, but this idea that how we actually form attachments as well like we're not doing it as babies anymore. So how do we form attachments?

00;41;37;24 - 00;41;59;25
Speaker 3
What are the some of the fast tracks to it? And one of them is sharing weakness. And I love that where is attachment first formed when we are utterly weak and unable to care for ourselves. And that's like we're weird creatures, that we are born so pathetically helpless but baked into our brains, baked into our biology, baked into the design of the human life and the human brain.

00;41;59;27 - 00;42;22;08
Speaker 3
Is this fact that weakness is the only fertile soil for somebody to provide attachment for me, because also I can't provide attachment. For me, it's a gift that somebody else gives me, the gift that God gives me, where in my darkest moment, at the height of my pain, at the height of my sinfulness, that is the God. That's the me that God chose to redeem.

00;42;22;15 - 00;42;44;21
Speaker 3
He was waiting in my brokenness for me and like, Hey, when you want to come over here, I'm over here waiting for you, but I'm over at rock bottom. Come meet me here. Yeah, but that's the only place weakness is the only place that attachment really gets formed. And that's why it formed so strongly in a baby. And so it's incredible that this deepest part of us comes through.

00;42;44;28 - 00;43;07;00
Speaker 3
It's just interesting. Then you get a second Corinthians nine and you get to hear Jesus tell Paul. It is in your weakness that my strength is made perfect. And where does Jesus exercise his strength? Through the church, his body of action. So literally, it's in my weakness. Like you can put that right over. It's a personal connection to him and like Paul and Jesus thing.

00;43;07;02 - 00;43;25;21
Speaker 3
But there's just no way that Jesus ever would separate the church from himself because he says, You are my body. And so there's this idea that also when I bring my weakness, that is where strength comes from, because that is where attachment is formed and. That's the strongest force in the brain, and it's why we get this ridiculous thing.

00;43;25;21 - 00;43;45;03
Speaker 3
I'm super excited right now. This why we get this ridiculous statement that healing doesn't come in these two verses here. But like when I when I confess my sins to God, I am forgiven. And he is the only one that can do that on a cosmic scale. But I have to confess my sins to my friend and my brother or my sister.

00;43;45;05 - 00;44;04;28
Speaker 3
That's where I find healing. God has said I've separated the two. They're not separated because we're all one. We're all one with each other. As you know, Jesus and his father were one. But it's healing when you get to look into the eyes of somebody and they say, No, I still love you, even though you're kind of an idiot or you hurt me, but I still love you and I won't leave your side.

00;44;04;28 - 00;44;30;10
Speaker 3
And I'm actually going to sit here in there with you and I just the power of that is unbelievable. And it's and it's a little intense because that is a really high calling. And the fascinating thing is like I felt a few years ago, probably I started feeling a weird guilt and conviction that I was under selling and under promising, not because I was like, I don't want to underplay this over deliver.

00;44;30;10 - 00;44;51;02
Speaker 3
Like, that's cool. But I wasn't able to to say with full confidence. Like, I think transformation happens best in the context of give me I said that a lot and now I feel more free to say no. Transformation only happens in the context of community. It's community with God. Yeah, one on one that's real. Yeah, but it's also not the words of God, it's the word.

00;44;51;08 - 00;45;13;02
Speaker 3
Who is the person, right? It's the word of God being Jesus. It's a and it's like a it's a religion relationship, not a religion. No, That actually means like, it's the person of God that forces transformation. And then it's like the embodied person of God, which is the church, which is super intense. But like I started a few years ago, calling people to the higher standard.

00;45;13;02 - 00;45;36;27
Speaker 3
I like calling all of us, not the leaders anymore, but the people of our church as much as I could. Like you're in a group, man. You just you walked into a high calling because you are the presence of God in somebody's life. Yeah Super intense. Yes, Super true. Yeah. And it was a game changer because it was like people were taking up that mantle going like, Yeah, that sounds like real purpose to me too.

00;45;36;29 - 00;45;46;06
Speaker 3
And that is that was really exciting. But it's also really intense, and I think I shied away from it for a long time, but I don't feel like I have to anymore, man.

00;45;46;08 - 00;45;56;07
Speaker 2
So good timing. That's what I feel like. Usually in the episode I tell people to rewind and go, Listen to that again. That was just like, home run man, good job.

00;45;56;09 - 00;46;06;09
Speaker 3
Well, just long in the making and took me a long time to be brave enough to try to figure this all out. And then somebody just wrote a book and gave you the words for it. I was like, Yeah, I appreciate.

00;46;06;09 - 00;46;24;20
Speaker 2
The book he gives. This is he gives a few small group tips throughout this a little bit. And then one of them from this section is that, like as it doesn't grow out of mark and small groups, leaders and members that need to be taught the importance of it. And that curriculum must make relationship building a centerpiece of the group curriculum instead of an afterthought.

00;46;24;27 - 00;46;34;15
Speaker 2
I really am. I really really enjoyed that as well, because those relationships have got to form before we're going to get to correction, which is which is coming up here.

00;46;34;17 - 00;46;57;17
Speaker 3
And second, and it it really does help so much because it starts to mean that if this is really the foundation for all the other stuff and most of the other ministries in our churches potentially are less brain dominant where they maybe need to swing and go, Well, you know, 80 out of the 90 minutes of our group, are we going to talk about ideas or we can talk about how we can keep forming attachment between each other?

00;46;57;22 - 00;47;15;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. What is a group? Is it a cooler way to do information transfer and a more personal way to do information? What if it wasn't that? What if it wasn't a better way to understand an idea which I've sold it? That is that for a long time you want to really understand the student, really apply it. Personal life, personal life, individual, blah, blah, blah.

00;47;15;20 - 00;47;43;09
Speaker 3
Well, the other people help you do that. Yeah, that's probably not a good enough self. What if it was like if you want to be trained on how to be the human that you were created to be and also become a real friend, not just to these people but everybody else. This is friend training. That's what we do in groups I started calling it That is super confusing for people and I was like, No, but really the goal is to help you become a real friend who understands people and how to love one another and brings it everywhere else.

00;47;43;09 - 00;48;06;09
Speaker 3
So it's like it became a training ground for this side of the brain and a training ground for relationships so that they can bring that healthy, really healthy relational skill. It's not skill, but relational experience even. But in fact, the other people around them that are toxic or that are terrified of vulnerability, we're actually trained that here, so you can go do it elsewhere.

00;48;06;09 - 00;48;25;01
Speaker 3
And it was like there's night and day difference because it set new standards and it set new goals. And it was it was really exciting. Yeah, but that's that's the idea. And I loved that he built these in order. So in terms of small group tips, it's like if you're not creating a high, high joy environment, you have blocked the rest.

00;48;25;02 - 00;48;27;00
Speaker 3
You can't have had said without joy, Yeah.

00;48;27;02 - 00;48;28;04
Speaker 2
Are your groups fun?

00;48;28;04 - 00;48;48;13
Speaker 3
Yeah. Seriously? Like, do you think a party this is I did this. It was a little facetious and annoying when I started saying this a long time ago. It was like, Do you think a party is as holy as a Bible study? And if your answer is no, redefine what a party is because a party is a chance to just enjoy each other.

00;48;48;15 - 00;49;06;04
Speaker 3
What could be more beautiful than that? Well, Bible study can be, but also put them together. Man like make it fun, laugh a lot, make jokes, but also just enjoy each other and get to know one another. That is actually a holy experience and that's why partying is holy.

00;49;06;04 - 00;49;18;11
Speaker 2
All right. Let's take a quick break. Stand, share. How do we take this joy in attachment and bring it into our groups through group identity? Let's jump in to group identity. So what do we mean by group identity and why is it important?

00;49;18;11 - 00;49;23;17
Speaker 3
Yeah, it means something political, right? This in a bunch of political circles recently. And it does have to be.

00;49;23;17 - 00;49;26;24
Speaker 2
Able they execute on this perfectly. But go ahead. Yeah.

00;49;26;26 - 00;49;50;00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Seriously, this is a challenging chapter because it takes a concept that feels like an afterthought, feels like a thing I don't want to do not don't do group thing. Right? Yeah. Actually, all your brain really does is group saying this side of your brain. It's what it's wired for. It's the fact that every single thing right? The pattern of thought forms a group identity and then it's the question and this was so cool.

00;49;50;00 - 00;50;12;00
Speaker 3
The question was really simple. The question my right brain asks in any situation is what do my people do in this situation, first of all, who identify as my people? Great question. And how do we help people identify the church as my people? Right. Is great question. And it's joy and has said joy and attachment is the easy answer.

00;50;12;00 - 00;50;29;25
Speaker 3
But what do my people do in this situation? And that's the first reaction that we have. And it's unbelievable. And it's because the right brain was working so much faster and it's working first and it just literally scans through, I think, to the cover flow on a mac. And you have a mac, I'm sorry, but the thing that I never use in the finder, right.

00;50;29;25 - 00;50;44;08
Speaker 3
You could do the list. You could do the columns or you could do the boxes and you could do cover flow, which is just a bunch of like album covers or pictures or folders and on an iPad or whatever, you can just go and it scans through all the folders and you're like, I can't see these. Why would I use this?

00;50;44;10 - 00;51;01;08
Speaker 3
But that's what your right brain does. Instead of thinking, Well, let's get there logically, what should I do? There's no I it starts with we. What have I seen in the past? My group identity is born out of the examples and imitations that I have to go off of to go. Who do I identify with? What do we do?

00;51;01;10 - 00;51;21;22
Speaker 3
And we do it really quickly. And that is why this is the perfect example. It's why we do so many things like our parents, even though we vowed to never do them again. It's because the majority of examples What do I do with that stressful situation? What do I do in that challenging or scary when my fear gets unlocked to my limbic system kicks in, is protecting me from what it feels like death.

00;51;21;24 - 00;51;43;07
Speaker 3
And this is another book, but it's like Jan, it's like everything shuts down. It says left brain, take a chill pill. There's going to be no thinking, I'll protect us. And the right brain just goes, We've got this. Take the best example and hopefully find the one with the least harm. And it's like you got a lot of examples of your parents, even though you hate what they did and in a lot of cases.

00;51;43;14 - 00;51;45;23
Speaker 3
And so just picks a picture and says, yeah, I'll do that.

00;51;45;25 - 00;51;46;29
Speaker 2
And all of this is informing.

00;51;47;00 - 00;51;47;27
Speaker 3
Our kids to.

00;51;47;29 - 00;51;49;25
Speaker 2
Write this, this group idea and.

00;51;49;29 - 00;51;50;19
Speaker 3
What our character is.

00;51;50;26 - 00;52;15;09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And this is why it plays such a crucial role in our groups because, you know, we're all trying to live this out. I think he talked about two is, you know, Western culture, like our identity is individualistic, especially here in America, Like we love our individual freedoms. And so this can be countercultural to that as well, that we're going to have this this groupthink of thinking in terms of group values as as well.

00;52;15;11 - 00;52;38;01
Speaker 3
Yeah, I really love it. And the wonderful thing about it, too, is it doesn't take the responsibility away from the individual. It doesn't take the responsibility away from myself. I don't have to have a self and I can't just be informed by the group. But my self identity is the words that I put in so many ways to the group identity that I have in my group.

00;52;38;01 - 00;52;59;12
Speaker 3
Identity is different than everybody else's because I have so many groups and I have so many attachments and all these things and some of them are really destructive. So what group am I a part of? Like if, if, if Republican or Democrat is one of my primary groups? In a moment, I'm going to go I see some of these pain, and especially because pain is like pain.

00;52;59;12 - 00;53;16;12
Speaker 3
Your pain makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm going to go to my default and what's my default? I'm going to take my group, especially the one that's most emotionally charged, could be a political one. And I'm going to pick that. And I'm going to instead of responding to your pain, which is what Jesus does, right? He enters into our pain without reservation.

00;53;16;12 - 00;53;26;05
Speaker 3
He's like, I'm in. You can't hurt me with your pain. I'm okay. I'm just here for you. We get into protection mode and just do what makes us feel good, which is like, well, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's.

00;53;26;11 - 00;53;27;28
Speaker 2
Easy. Invitations, right?

00;53;28;01 - 00;53;43;26
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's super is super hurtful. And that's why we've seen so many bad examples of group identity is because it is absolutely the most powerful thing to tap into because it's born out of these unhealthy or healthy attachments and it's unbelievably effective.

00;53;44;03 - 00;53;47;18
Speaker 2
So how do we pull this group identity into our groups?

00;53;47;21 - 00;54;09;00
Speaker 3
Yeah, I loved the example. They gave one of the primary ones and it was it was just say we are blank. We are people who blank. And they had this they talked about this identity statement. That was all we are. And they said it every time they were together. And they would do it in different ways and they would revisit it and they would do it as a group.

00;54;09;03 - 00;54;32;13
Speaker 3
And just the fact that they could do that together was starting to inform these values. They came up with the values to together, and so they would customize it together. And sometimes it was based off a situation that was really challenging and nobody had a context for and they did it wrong. And they brought the group and the group was like, Well, let's look at the character of Jesus, because our group identity and this is what I love and I will get back to the positive thing for the practical thing.

00;54;32;13 - 00;54;56;07
Speaker 3
But if you think about it, if everything is images of the people around me and we are a line of just like I'm just imitating whatever, the more we conform to the church and become this group identity together, the more we are literally just a cascade of mirrored reflections of Jesus himself. Because who did the disciples imitate Jesus himself?

00;54;56;09 - 00;55;13;10
Speaker 3
And who did everybody else imitate? The disciples all said, Follow me as I follow Christ. And so we are a direct descendant, neurologically, whatever. I don't know. But of imitation of Christ. And that means we can imitate each other, because that means we're all coming back to imitating Christ. And that's why the central figure has to be Christ too.

00;55;13;10 - 00;55;14;11
Speaker 3
Because otherwise.

00;55;14;13 - 00;55;14;26
Speaker 2
Exactly.

00;55;14;26 - 00;55;34;03
Speaker 3
Just will distort it and malformed it so much and it will be devastating. But it's always centered on the person of Jesus. We actually something to come back to and we can confirm it. It is it is so cruel to think that we are just in the last, you know, the cutting edge of that line of of group identity is amazing.

00;55;34;03 - 00;55;36;07
Speaker 3
But they do this in their groups. Well, go ahead. You go first. Yeah.

00;55;36;08 - 00;55;52;11
Speaker 2
I really appreciate it, too, in this book, too, where it talks about like this one can be dangerous, where like if you if you're if you don't do it properly, you're going to you can reap bad fruit from this as well. So it talks about being conscious within that. But let me read the we are statements that he recommends.

00;55;52;11 - 00;56;13;09
Speaker 2
So it's we are people who would rather listen and speak. We are people who see what God is building in others. We are people who spontaneously love our enemies and return blessings for cursing. We are people who remind each other who we really are wherever we forget. And this is why I love this last one. We are people who get our group identity from the character of Jesus, which is what you just said.

00;56;13;11 - 00;56;14;05
Speaker 3
And it's.

00;56;14;08 - 00;56;14;29
Speaker 2
The good.

00;56;15;05 - 00;56;35;16
Speaker 3
Guys. I love it. Well, and the cool thing is too, you don't have to make this weird chant thing. One of the ways that and we did this before I even got to Mission is eight years ago, and we were already doing this in some cases. And I just was like, This is great, let's keep doing that. It was for a totally different reason, but it had this unintended consequence.

00;56;35;16 - 00;57;02;03
Speaker 3
And now I'm like, I would double down on this. Was it with every single group, not just as they were learning to be a group and meeting for the first time and is literally every group forever was required to do this one thing. And they were a few things, but this one, Dana, was read a group statement before their discussion, and the primary idea was that they would it would keep the ground rules clear, creating the right structure to create a safe and but the expectation of safety and grace.

00;57;02;06 - 00;57;19;22
Speaker 3
So we know what's on and off limits. But I started as I shaped it over time too, I made it a little more character, like every time. And it was always I tried to include a reason. And so it was like we started on time because we respect each other's time. Yeah, yeah, I do respect your time. I'm not the only one that matters here.

00;57;19;26 - 00;57;39;23
Speaker 3
I'm it was things like that that's like, Oh, so seriously, I'll throw in the tone ourselves on that submission. But it was like the, the power of it was so cool because it was literally calling everybody back to even. It was it was just ground rules for the discussion. And I would blow that out now and make it out probably end with a character only thing and a group identity only thing.

00;57;39;23 - 00;58;02;03
Speaker 3
But I'd still keep these ground for discussion. They're their money. But but it was so powerful because it was like, Oh, sorry, we don't do that. And if somebody could self-correct or if the leader was correcting too, it wasn't like, you don't do that because I sense so it was like, Hey, we agreed, we don't do that and that doesn't feel offensive in the same way a little bit.

00;58;02;05 - 00;58;05;27
Speaker 3
But it was like, You're right, we did. Yeah. Oh, okay, let's move on.

00;58;06;00 - 00;58;20;28
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think support groups do a really great job of this too, because they do. They do a great job laying out ground rules of who we are and who we aren't. And then also just reminding them like who we are. And Christ, I think, is just something that they realize now that we should we should pick up on.

00;58;21;02 - 00;58;32;26
Speaker 2
And I think it all leads to this last point, which is really beautiful things. The last ingredient is healthy correction. And the beauty of this one is that, like I just said, all three of those lead up to this one. Can you explain that to our listeners?

00;58;32;28 - 00;58;40;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, honestly, this is the best the best chapter on correction rebuke, whatever it is that I've ever read. So because it has to.

00;58;40;27 - 00;58;41;25
Speaker 2
At the same time it.

00;58;41;25 - 00;59;01;15
Speaker 3
Is it is because it's so different and it requires more of me than before, which is, well, if God brings up the whatever like I, I brought it up by bringing it up and years ago do something about it, like keep your brother from falling into sin, like you fell and you get him out. He's not getting himself out.

00;59;01;21 - 00;59;27;16
Speaker 3
I'm actually required to kick him out, so. But I can't take responsibility for him. But I do have a responsibility to him anyway. Healthy correction. Their whole. The whole idea behind it is that it has to work in a specific pattern that follows these things in the brain. Because if you if you bypass or kind of deny what the brain needs to make a different decision and be corrected, like that's not a happy say.

00;59;27;16 - 00;59;50;06
Speaker 3
Nobody wants to be corrected. And so if you deny the brain and the heart and the person what the what it means joy, attachment. And I thank you. But if you missed those three, you're actually never going to be able to do the corrections and it's going to fall on deaf ears. And so the idea is that it was instead all the other ways we could possibly do it.

00;59;50;06 - 01;00;05;05
Speaker 3
It's the same pattern every time. And it's actually the way we see Jesus do it over and over. He has incredible examples of it, but it's this idea that I'm going to reaffirm that I take joy in our relationship. I'm glad to be with you, and that nothing can change that I care for you.

01;00;05;10 - 01;00;14;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. In this kind of starts there. Yeah. The other thing I think that they really try to point out is this misconception that it's information that's going to change someone's behavior.

01;00;14;05 - 01;00;15;12
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely.

01;00;15;13 - 01;00;23;18
Speaker 2
Man, do we see this as like, we see this with, like, finances or we think, oh, if we just if we just educate them on this, it'll change their behavior.

01;00;23;20 - 01;00;28;09
Speaker 3
Like know just tell him, tell them Ramsay's seven baby steps and then it'll be fine.

01;00;28;11 - 01;00;40;23
Speaker 2
Fine. No. So this is what they say in their book. It says, A common misunderstanding is that our character is defined mostly by moral truth and choices. When we see a flaw in a person's character, we think they don't understand God's teaching and they're making bad choices.

01;00;40;23 - 01;00;42;17
Speaker 3
If they just don't get it yet.

01;00;42;22 - 01;01;02;03
Speaker 2
It's true that the choices were in bad choices were involved, but the root impetus of our character lies elsewhere. In order to improve behavior, we need to change our values and update our stored examples. And how we act. Goes back to your talking about your Apple example with the filing system, the change in the libraries. Finally, it says We cannot change our values directly.

01;01;02;03 - 01;01;06;04
Speaker 2
We must get them from our community and our group identity.

01;01;06;06 - 01;01;23;21
Speaker 3
Now, this reminds me a lot of the story. It goes around on Facebook a lot is this this like I think the urban legend or maybe it's real, I don't know. But it's this idea that this professor or his freshman class in the big lecture hall and he's like, God doesn't exist. And you this is why and all the reasons.

01;01;23;21 - 01;01;50;01
Speaker 3
And then one kid's like, Well, do you know how do we know that you exist? Any, like, makes fun of the professor and then something about faith and then, oh, that person was Albert Einstein. Whatever. So but this idea that there's this one guy, right? There's one girl that's willing to stand up to all the whatever. And in the face of persecution, it's one person that it's just it must be a Western American.

01;01;50;01 - 01;02;10;22
Speaker 3
Like, yeah, that one person. That's who I need to be. Yeah. I need to be the one in the room that will stand up for what's right and true and good. And then you get there and it's nothing at all the same. There's no persecution. You fold like nothing because that's a mess. Like, there's nothing in me that wants to be the one person in the room, and that's okay.

01;02;10;25 - 01;02;30;28
Speaker 3
Why would you be? That's why we have the entirety of the church history to go. I'm not the first one to do this. People died for this. They killed Jesus. It's okay if they make fun of me. And that's that first thing. But it's like my strength comes from the people around me. It's like my strength is like strength comes and is perfected in my weakness.

01;02;30;28 - 01;02;44;11
Speaker 3
I don't have to be something. We are something. It's. It changes everything. What do you think about? Like, that's a myth. That's not a real thing. My power comes from Christ embodied in all of us. Yeah.

01;02;44;13 - 01;03;02;29
Speaker 2
So all right. So we be robbing you as a listener. If we didn't talk about this one point in this healthy correction and we are talking pre-tape as we're going into this and we were talking about how this each blew our mind and how we wanted to fight against this. But he talks about the difference between toxic shame and healthy shame.

01;03;02;29 - 01;03;09;16
Speaker 2
And to me, like hearing that phrase healthy. She was like hearing it's just a pure oxymoron.

01;03;09;22 - 01;03;11;25
Speaker 3
Seriously, it makes no sense.

01;03;12;03 - 01;03;37;15
Speaker 2
This makes no sense. But maybe this definition will really help break this down for you that this kind of help cleared up for me. So toxic is you are bad, right? Like, you don't deserve this. You're bad like you did something completely wrong. Whereas healthy shame is this is not who you are. And so this book, this this section really walks through how we can use healthy correction to call people back to who they really are.

01;03;37;15 - 01;04;01;02
Speaker 2
And I think you really see this through Romans three, through eight, where Paul's trying to correct them, to let them know, like you have a flesh side that is dead and we don't need to listen to that. And you have this spirit side that is alive, that we are we are called to follow. And so I think I think that's one of those ones that it sets this chapter of, well, what else would you be out here with the healthy shame.

01;04;01;04 - 01;04;21;14
Speaker 3
Tolerated It blew my mind because it's all in the mind. Like one of the things that, you know, Michael Hendrix, the groups guys like, we got to call it something different, you know. Yeah, we got to think of another word. What about us? It's conviction. And Jim Wilder. And their guy was like, I'm sorry I didn't design the brain.

01;04;21;21 - 01;04;37;02
Speaker 3
It's a shame circuit. It's built in. We can't do anything about it. And if we don't utilize it, it's not going to work. And so that idea that we have to tap into this so that people want desperately to be in the tribe, not because we'll leave them, that's an ultimatum, right? If you keep acting like that, you're out.

01;04;37;02 - 01;04;57;24
Speaker 3
It's an ultimatum. And that is desperately ineffective and evil and it's awful. And that's not Jesus. But if it's like you are in there for I want you to do this because we are people that do this that is totally different and that unlocks this deep desire to be conformed to the image of Christ and conform to the image of his body on earth.

01;04;57;24 - 01;05;00;24
Speaker 3
And that is where traction comes from, the motivation to change.

01;05;00;27 - 01;05;23;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I'm going to share with you the example that's in the book that I thought illustrates this really well. And I realize it's not a small group example. It's it's more of a sports example. But you know, they're talking about this football player who had a bad penalty. And one of the things that starts with first is it talks about how I need to let them know, like, you are still part of us, you are still part of this team, like I am with you in this.

01;05;23;15 - 01;05;41;18
Speaker 2
And so this is this is the example they gave of what the coach would say during the correction as opposed to like, you got this wrong, you cost us a penalty. Now you're going to cost us the game like that is toxic as in you are bad, right? So this is the example that is the healthy shame is still still hard to say.

01;05;41;18 - 01;05;43;08
Speaker 3
That's right. That's right.

01;05;43;10 - 01;06;06;18
Speaker 2
It's like swearing our relationship is not at risk even though you messed up. So that was the affirmation. Like, you know, our relationship we're still happy with you right then I would say you seem to have forgotten that we're not the kind of team that gets into little pushing matches when our feelings get hurt. Instead, we are learning to be men of character who can take an insult and walk away because our team is more important.

01;06;06;20 - 01;06;10;09
Speaker 2
This is a great opportunity for you to learn. Don't waste it. And I just like.

01;06;10;09 - 01;06;11;03
Speaker 3
What a.

01;06;11;05 - 01;06;28;03
Speaker 2
Beautiful example of that. Like, I I'm going to think about that a lot when it comes to like, you know, correcting my child. But I feel, yeah, I mean, it's going to be way too heated to be like, right, this is the questions Lenzes. We do not push our sister.

01;06;28;05 - 01;06;50;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. One that's why correction has to be done. That's why the log has to come out of our eye. Therefore we get that solid dust out of somebody else's. Because the reality is if I bring my anxiety to your situation. I will damage you because I cannot get through that effectively. I can't call you to who you are because I'm actually forgetting who I am at that point.

01;06;50;25 - 01;07;07;13
Speaker 3
And we're not neither of us are in sync. And so I have to actually manage my own anxiety around it so that I can bring in healthy cells to correct you. And I love it, too. It's not a cop out, man. It is not because he's like, We need to be creating each other much more often than we do and you have to challenge at the end.

01;07;07;19 - 01;07;24;29
Speaker 3
I love that line. This is a great opportunity for you to learn. Yeah. Don't you dare waste it. Yeah, he is strong and all of his examples. He's ending really strong and I love that because it's not like, Oh, you're leaning on group identity. It should be personal responsibility. It is. Yeah, it's very much so.

01;07;24;29 - 01;07;28;09
Speaker 2
And if you also notice an example, he's not using guilt to motivate them.

01;07;28;12 - 01;07;28;17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;07;28;20 - 01;07;43;23
Speaker 2
And I think that's so much gospel in there too. And I love the way that we say this here at Hoboken. GRACE You know, we talk about grace and guilt when it comes to our discussions inside of our groups. And so we say, you know, as you begin to focus on application, you can be easy to fall into legalism, right?

01;07;43;23 - 01;08;04;29
Speaker 2
Like, this is what I have to do. And sometimes I'm going to fall short of that. And it's crucial that we same we it's crucial that you frame application as a response to what God has done and out of work to appease Him or receive His approval. And as a result of that, like sometimes when you're working along legalism is there's no place for guilt in the life of a Christian crisis.

01;08;04;29 - 01;08;21;28
Speaker 2
And he paid the price for our shortcomings. Our response to that love is trust and obedience, not wallowing in guilt. Yeah, and like that has that has really helped our groups provide kind of a breakthrough. I think that's another thing I can share in the show notes of like, that's interesting. I think we're both sharing what our group discussion guidelines and yes.

01;08;22;00 - 01;08;24;13
Speaker 3
It's helpful to.

01;08;24;15 - 01;08;26;12
Speaker 2
Find those impasses on.

01;08;26;14 - 01;08;53;00
Speaker 3
And Jan 15. And this is going back to an earlier chapter even, but our maybe are on our plan together because they're all like, it's all one big package, but, you know, and June 15, we get this idea of the vine in the branches, but when you put it in attachment language, obedience is something very different. And also our relationship with others is very different because that is a very individualistic thing in my mind, like I need to see attached to the branches or to the vine.

01;08;53;00 - 01;09;13;21
Speaker 3
And it's like, well, you know, so instead of just love, you stay connected to me. Abide. I mean, what does any of that mean? Stay deeply attached to me. Experientially. Yes. And obedience will feel like it's nothing. It'll just happen. Yes. Why would you want to act like somebody you're not? You're right next to me. And it's really easy to see who I am and who we are.

01;09;13;21 - 01;09;32;17
Speaker 3
Because you and me are the same now. We're one. There's no disconnecting us. I will not let you be cut off. And then also, he says, this line at some point is like then the relation, like the sap of divine love, flows through those attachments because I am just as connected to the other branches as I am to the vine.

01;09;32;24 - 01;09;50;06
Speaker 3
And so this, this idea is like, Hey, don't fall off Vine, I'm here to it's we're going to stay connected with each other. And that is the power to be obedient. It's not even just staying connected. The vine is the fact that we are all connected the vine. That is where the power to change comes from. That is fantastic.

01;09;50;08 - 01;09;50;18
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;09;50;24 - 01;09;54;10
Speaker 2
Awesome. All right. This might be the most dangerous question of all.

01;09;54;12 - 01;10;19;04
Speaker 3
And there is about four more hours of stuff. Now, I know it probably feels like, Whoa, do I have to become crane expert? No. I have found incredible. But I found incredible joy in actually describing this to people because I think it speaks to them in a new way. And I love saying, like, you were wired for this.

01;10;19;07 - 01;10;33;17
Speaker 3
Let me actually give you a reason why it's not what I'm going to lead with. You know, I'm not going to stand on a stage and announce something and go, okay, so here you are. Here's how your brain is constructed and that's why you should join a group. No, that's probably not the most compelling thing. But we can lean into this.

01;10;33;17 - 01;11;01;23
Speaker 3
We're so more confident and so much more clarity because we can use all of these outcomes of the design of our brains, and we can lean into them with not just the confidence of Scripture, but the confidence of the affirmation and confirmation that all of that is so true that it's built into us. And honestly, I like if you go back and read anything about the wrath of God, the face of God, the presence of God, usually that's actually the face of God.

01;11;01;26 - 01;11;19;09
Speaker 3
He goes through a great thing about that. But anything about love and you start reading it through this relational glue and attachment that they commit and you start using these words that the verse is part off the page, and they speak to a part of me that I can't get to is like, Well, the presence of God is with you.

01;11;19;12 - 01;11;42;28
Speaker 3
Congratulations. Nobody knows what that means. But God's face lights up when he thinks of you. I know actually what that means. And those are the same because that's how we were built. And so we could speak this language over people and pray this way and call people to this thing in a way that I just I find so much more confidence in it in this way.

01;11;43;00 - 01;11;43;22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;11;43;24 - 01;12;05;21
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think I would probably say that we may have missed. I think I would encourage you guys, you're going to read this book, you're going to want to talk with other people about it. And what I encourage you with is throw that into the small group network Facebook page or do a huddle in your area and ask people, Hey, let's read this book and let's get together and talk about it.

01;12;05;21 - 01;12;23;16
Speaker 2
I already know some friends that have already gathered together. Yeah, I was a little shocked. They're doing like a chapter a week and going through it, which I think is a really wise way to do this kind of book. I'm seriously a big fan of Read the whole thing and then do it, but can see you end up with a very, very, very long podcast.

01;12;23;19 - 01;12;36;15
Speaker 2
But I hope you enjoyed this discussion. Anyways. You're going to want to talk so much about this book too. And because it's written by a small group person, this is the thing I love most about smaller books. They give you questions at the end of the book for you to read.

01;12;36;21 - 01;12;37;11
Speaker 3
Everything.

01;12;37;13 - 01;12;56;13
Speaker 2
Else. I think it's a really good book to read through with your staff. Like I've been trying to push that with this be a staff book that we read. Yes, this stuff is applicable to every area of ministry. I love like this stuff. It talks about how this plays into worship a lot, you know, seeing the face to face and those kind of things.

01;12;56;13 - 01;12;59;26
Speaker 2
So really great book. Be sure to jump into that.

01;12;59;26 - 01;13;00;29
Speaker 3
So that's the.

01;13;01;02 - 01;13;04;25
Speaker 2
Last thing, Lightning Round where we always end. What's one book you're looking forward to reading.

01;13;05;00 - 01;13;18;14
Speaker 3
Now in reference to the last one we did at my first appearance of Tribe by Sebastian Junger, Freetown. By Sebastian Junger, too. I keep getting word that you actually.

01;13;18;18 - 01;13;19;25
Speaker 2
Want to dive into it, too.

01;13;19;25 - 01;13;38;20
Speaker 3
It is so good, man. It just is such a beautifully complex look at all of the nuance of this. It's really simple. We think experience of freedom and it is just that simple because nothing is. And I love that so much. And it speaks to our current moment a lot. So again, very excited about it.

01;13;38;27 - 01;13;49;07
Speaker 2
I just love to you can he's he's an author you can trust that you know it's going to there's going to be some really good things in it so I'll be going forward to that, too. So, Tomi, this was fantastic. Thank you for.

01;13;49;07 - 01;13;57;06
Speaker 3
Being such a pleasure, man. And I love talking to you in general and it's great when we can just regard it as helpful to somebody else. I'll talk to you anyway. So.

01;13;57;08 - 01;14;01;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, we know at least Carolyn's listening, so that's good. Yeah, that's.

01;14;01;21 - 01;14;04;23
Speaker 3
Good. Yeah.

01;14;04;25 - 01;14;19;17
Speaker 2
Well, I'm Nick Lindsay, and I want to thank you for listening with us. Thanks, Tommy, for sharing your experiences. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. There's actually a really special treat for you next week. As you can tell, we do it by the week's here. Next week is one of those fifth week, so they're actually going to start a limited series.

01;14;19;19 - 01;14;34;11
Speaker 2
They'll start next week and it's actually called How to Lead a Small Group. So this is going to be designed for your small group of leaders that they can kind of listen into. James is going to host that. I think you guys all really enjoy it. And the other thing I just have to plug in there, too, because it's the last chance I get.

01;14;34;14 - 01;14;51;23
Speaker 2
I'm going to be leading a breakout at the October 7th virtual lobby, and I'm going to be doing it all on small group systems. I promise you I'm going to have a handful of books that I'm going to recommend because when it comes to small group systems, I'm like this one, this one, this one, this one, and figure out how the context fits in your church.

01;14;51;25 - 01;15;15;17
Speaker 2
So try your best to be there. I highly recommend it. Ask your boss for that. I think It's 3 hours and hours. Don't tell me before this. There's a lot of online conferences that aren't great. And we did the virtual lobby in the past and it was the best online conference I've been to. I don't say that lightly because I know what you're used to experiencing where you just like you're kind of there.

01;15;15;18 - 01;15;40;01
Speaker 2
You're kind of not. This is a conference you actually get to be at because we are all in one big zoom. It's the most impressive thing that you've ever seen because you can have 400 people in a room and not single person is unmuted. I don't know how that works, but it's amazing. And then we do a bunch of breakouts and we all get to discuss what we talked about, what you don't get in these online conferences, and you have some other small group people.

01;15;40;01 - 01;15;53;21
Speaker 2
It's beautiful. We all know how to behave in these things and it's really great learning environment. So I highly encourage you to there for that. So Tommy, are you going to come tomorrow? Oh, we're cool. I'm going to make sure I can get super excited about it.

01;15;53;21 - 01;15;54;28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01;15;55;00 - 01;15;58;03
Speaker 2
All right. Thanks For joining us. Remember, leaders, our readers, take.

01;15;58;03 - 01;15;58;20
Speaker 3
Care of everyone.

01;15;58;20 - 01;16;21;29
Speaker 1
Thank you for listening to group talk. We invite you to subscribe to our podcast through iTunes and get new episodes downloaded automatically. Also, if you enjoy this program, please take a few minutes to give us a positive rating on iTunes so that other small group point people can find us more easily. We encourage you to visit our website, Small Group Network E-Comm to access our library of free resources, connect to a how to with other small group ministry leaders in your area.

01;16;22;03 - 01;16;33;12
Speaker 1
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