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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Welcome to this week's episode of
the Caregivers Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropaleski, and you can call
me Dr.
Mark.
We've kicked off Season 3, and
today's episode is for family
caregivers who feel trapped, not
just by caregiving, but by the
unfair family dynamics around it.
Now, let's face it, no family is
perfect, but a lot of families are
quite dysfunctional, some wildly
so.
That's real life.
If you're caregiving under guilt,
pressure, manipulation, or abuse,
and it's costing you your
identity,
this conversation is going to name
what's happening and show you
where choice still exists.
Amy Vasterling has spent decades
studying people and how they lose
their inner truth under family and
social conditioning, and how they
reclaim it.
She's the author of the book, No,
and today we're applying her work
to caregiving inside dysfunctional
family dynamics.
The easiest way to support the
show is to subscribe wherever you
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It's totally free, and it helps us
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Leave us a review, a comment,
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Plus, it means you never miss an
episode.
We appreciate you listening.
Welcome to this week's episode of
the Caregiver's Podcast.
I'm so happy to have this week's
guest with us, Amy Vasterling.
Welcome.
You're joining us today as a world
traveler, and I believe coming in
from Germany.
So, it's a little bit later in the
day here.
It's bright and early here in
Kingston, Ontario.
Welcome.
Thanks for having me, Mark.
So, in the tradition of the
podcast, I'd like to just jump
right in and ask you, you know, in
some families,
the moment a caregiver sets a
limit, they get framed as selfish
or cruel.
And it always fascinates me.
Why do boundaries get treated like
betrayal on those families?
Well, it's generally enmeshment or
a situation where there was no
defined boundary at all, ever.
There are no, they're
boundaryless.
And so, anything that actually
comes off as something that is
true gets denied.
And that's what makes it really
hard for the caregiver or the
codependent,
is they're constantly in a state
of knowing better than, but
they're treated like they don't
understand.
And that's what becomes really
quite energy-sucking from those
relationships, draining.
Especially with the dynamics
around caregiving, you could
really get pulled backwards.
Even if you've made some progress
through your life, it's just like
a sudden whirlpool that sucks you
back down
into that sort of tension between
what you refer to as the model and
the knowing.
It's an important part of your
thesis in your book, which I
really enjoyed reading.
And maybe this would be a good
time to just tell us a little bit
about those operating definitions.
What's the model and what's the
knowing?
Yeah, well, it's exactly a perfect
segue in because it's exactly what
you just described.
The model is, I define it as, the
control that we assert to maintain
or advance our place in the
hierarchy.
So, if you think about a family
dynamic, and you have a caregiver,
that the one who is ill is
probably controlling the situation
and saying,
you don't love me if you don't
come and show up.
Or you don't love me, there is
this, like you say, it's a vortex
of bad tension.
Whereas knowing is something that
is a human birthright.
When we were a baby, we knew when
we were hungry, and we cried, and
hopefully we had that need met.
But when that need goes unmet,
such as in the situation in
unhealthy relationships,
that's where things fall apart.
And that's what I came to see is,
I redefined narcissism not in a
psychological way,
because that's not my reference
point in my background.
I came to call it, in my work now,
narcissistic social disordering.
And I think of it as a needs-based
problem.
So when we look at it from that
positioning, we can step back and
say, what are the needs?
Well, where we have emotional
brokenness, which is what you're
describing in this relationship of
caregiving in many cases,
we can't even arrive at a need
until we heal the emotional.
So this is a complexity beyond
complexities, particularly in a
world society.
And I do travel a lot where we
aren't very open to embracing
people's emotions, particularly
for men, but also for women.
So the dynamic is complex.
I'm going to go back and say
something about knowing to take it
a little further.
Knowing is really inside of us
what we know is evidently true.
And I signal to that a
boundaryless family makes it very
tricky for the person who knows
themselves well.
They start to second-guess it, and
they start to, what I say, is
scrap for a shred of love
and a sense of belonging in an
environment that is falsely
providing that.
And it's amazing when the dynamics
shift around the call to
caregiving
because there's so much dynamic at
play, especially in larger
families,
where gravity may pull one
individual to be sort of the
highlighted caregiver,
and that may unpack
vulnerabilities and other dynamics
that can create a huge burden on
the caregiver.
In many families, the assumed
caregiver is sort of the least
allowed to say no
or the least allowed to say, I
need a boundary.
I have to set this limit.
So my question is, when does
reliability actually get construed
or interpreted as consent to
caregiving?
And how does a person end up
carrying what everybody else
avoids?
Yeah, well, that's the scapegoat,
and that's a dangerous position in
a family.
But I'm going to move that into
expectancy and expectation.
That really reliability comes out
of when we have an expectation,
perhaps the person who's ill has
an expectation that this is how
this will go.
And we can hear in that very
statement, that's a sense of
control.
They feel out of control.
They're ill.
They might be scared.
They might feel their inner,
emotional, what life is being
experienced through inner child
parts.
So they're operating off of a
mixed bag of things.
And then you have the caregiver
who's trying to be forthright.
They're doing the best that they
can, but they're dealing with, in
a way, a broken system within this
person.
There's disordering within them.
And so they might show up and be,
you know, the healthy thing would
be to be expectant,
that the person who's ill would be
expectant of the other person.
Something good will come of this.
This can work out.
But instead, with expectations,
that caregiver feels an incredible
weight and burden.
And if they are the scapegoat in
the family, the person who they
say, well, they won't do it
anyway,
they're going to try and
overachieve to continue to scrap
for that little shred of
belonging.
And a sense of what they think is
safety when, indeed, that's not a
safe environment.
The reverse, I guess, could be
true also, right?
Is that if they've naturally
assumed that role in the family
for decades,
then they really take a pounding
when that added load gets put on
their shoulders,
when family dynamics naturally has
a gravitate to them because it's
the sort of established pattern in
the family.
That's right.
And I think what makes it more
complex is when somebody's ill,
there are a lot of unknowns.
It's, oh, now all of a sudden I
need to leave work early because
there's this blood test that has
to be done.
There's this other thing.
There are immediate needs in some
cases.
And I think that that's where this
can become a great lesson to pull
back, to delegate, to ask for help
from neighbors.
And that is very hard for somebody
who sees themselves as the
caregiver or the one who is
responsible for that person who's
ill.
I can see the call to caregiving
as being even more challenging
when you've existed as the black
sheep in the family.
And then suddenly you're forced to
wear the veil of the guardian
angel.
That's right.
But still, behind the scenes,
because the mode of a scapegoat is
the siblings are saying,
well, that person is this and
that.
They're saying negative things
because they're projecting their
own fears onto that person.
They have that, we can say, we can
feel that energy from siblings or
family members.
And so there's that burden plus
the intensity of caregiving.
I don't think we give it much
credit.
I mean, it's quite similar to
mothering or fathering in the way
that, you know, if you're a
stay-at-home parent, it's
constant.
You're up at night with a fever
yourself and the child's sick and
needs all of your attention.
It's a lot.
It can be similar, except for, I
think, the other thing that's
challenging in being a caregiver
is your person might not be who
they used to be.
If you're navigating dementia or
Alzheimer's or these types of
illnesses, that is another piece
that becomes really challenging.
And you're also wrestling with
your own mortality, your own
future of, is this going to happen
to me, which adds another level.
The other thing that's come out in
other episodes is that when you
assume the role of a caregiver for
a parent, you kind of hope that
through your caring,
that parent who's now ill may
evolve to be that person you
needed all along, but who was
never there.
And that can go back, way back.
So, caregivers get handed this
sort of script that says a good
child sacrifices and stays.
Yet, when that child now, an adult
caregiver, looks back, I mean,
they were never offered that kind
of care.
They weren't treated with the same
love that's now expected with
them.
So, how do families use that sort
of false moral standard to keep a
caregiver at the bedside doing it
all?
Is it more than scapegoating or is
there more to the story?
Well, I think it depends on the
person's need to be needed and
their sense of resisting or
rejecting abandonment.
Meaning, if they leave the family
dynamic or they set a boundary
that says, I can't be a part of
this,
in their mind, because of the
conditioning that they've been up
against,
they might say to themselves, I'm
abandoned, instead of, I'm leaving
this situation, which is the
powerful way to look at it.
So, they are going to stay there
and continue that process to have
some small sense that they belong.
And that's the problem in it, is
that they could find other places
to be and give their service
and find people that have needs
that they can match and be
fulfilled by it.
Whereas, I mean, you know this
because this is your podcast,
you've heard this many times,
but it tends to be the person
who's the primary caregiver also
can get sick from being the
caregiver.
And it's no accident when you have
that energy bound up and replayed,
what you're describing in that
scenario that she just described
is that person will feel
resentful.
I wonder if you're running on
chronic stress and family dynamics
over decades when you're called to
care give that cortisol surge
and the sustained level and that
sort of nervous system activation
is just exponentially so much
higher at baseline
compared to perhaps someone called
to care give where the family
dynamics at multiple levels were
actually favorable and nurturing
over a lifetime.
Yeah, and you pointed it out right
there.
If you don't feel safe, you're
going to be in big trouble when
you're helping to care for
somebody that's hard for you to
love.
You think you do, but in truth,
it's not really love.
It's cathexis, which is obsession.
And that leads into this, I need
to stay here, otherwise I'll never
be lovable.
You know, the perpetuation of it.
So, you spoke in your book about
that notion of being a highly
sensitive person.
Mm-hmm.
Could you expand on that a little
bit more and tell me what a highly
sensitive caregiver would be like?
Well, they'd be in a trickier
dynamic.
The beauty of the highly sensitive
person is what's good for the
highly sensitive is good for all
people.
But what's good for all people is
not good for the highly sensitive.
Meaning, as a caregiver, a highly
sensitive person can see what
isn't working and operate to
change it so that the system works
better for the person who's
receiving the care.
And a highly sensitive person,
Elaine Aron, her last name is
A-R-O-N, has written extensively.
She's the one that came up with
the term.
And really highly sensitive
people, they say the science is 20
to 30 percent of the population.
I think it's everybody, but I just
don't think that we're in touch
with it yet.
But Elaine would say that our
nervous systems as a highly
sensitive person are more finely
tuned.
Meaning, we might take in much
more information in a room, and
it's not necessarily empathic,
emotional.
We might see the pencil dropped on
the floor, and it was red, not
yellow, which is more common.
We might notice the subtlety in
things.
Because our job as a highly
sensitive person is to keep
society safe.
So we could also be the annoying
people who say,
climate change is coming in the
1970s.
And people say, what?
Why are you even talking about
that?
Because we can see the patterns
well advanced of when the things
are really hitting mainstream.
So that's different than that
situation where you're scanning
the room because you're under
chronic stress.
Or like the child who grows up
under the influence of the model
and then ends up hypervigilant
and scanning the whole environment
constantly as part of their
makeup.
This is different from what you're
describing.
I feel it is.
And it's tricky because I don't
know for sure that it is
different.
Because I am, I both grew up in
trauma and I am highly sensitive.
But what I can say is that the,
Mark, I lost my train.
I hope we're cutting this.
Say the question again.
Forgive me.
So, I mean, let me just gather my
thoughts now.
Yeah, you do.
Because it was a moment of flow.
So, Amy, what you're describing
when you say scanning the room and
seeing the color of the pencil on
the floor
is very different from that
hypervigilant scanning that
becomes conditioned in us
if we've grown up in an unstable
or traumatic environment where, in
a sort of a cortisol-driven way,
we're constantly scanning the
environment, looking for safe,
unsafe, and that sort of perilous
conversation between the two.
Right.
The highly sensitive is going to
be more calm about it.
It's not something they can turn
off.
It's innate in them to sense and
see what's in the room.
It might stress them sometimes.
The reason being, they can see the
pattern of where things head.
Like, if they see the teacher walk
in and she's mad, they might know
it's going to be a hard day in the
classroom.
Right.
Whereas the other students, even
hypervigilant ones, they might not
notice that right away.
They may.
But I do think that the two are a
bit different.
There's a calmness and a natural
knowing in the highly sensitive.
And I say, for people who have
highly sensitive children, the
most important thing is that you
keep them with their knowing
because if they're separated from
what they know is true about
themselves, they become a mess.
They become, at a very young age,
depressed and anxious and can be
really challenging.
Because they figure, if I don't
get to know myself, what's the
point of this?
And they can see the pattern so
rapidly, they challenge that.
And if it's not met with, let's
take a look at this, it becomes
challenging for them to really
survive and thrive in that.
So for the hypervigilant, that's
just another category, I believe,
of people who are afraid.
Whereas I don't think the highly
sensitive are afraid.
It's just simply the awareness is
there because they are to keep the
patterns and see what's happening
in society.
I say in my book, the highly
sensitive are the elephants of our
world.
The elephants are built to sense
and know the water's rising or the
earthquake is coming.
And they have horns on their faces
to trumpet for the animals that
are up in the sky.
And they have giant legs that
pound the earth so the ground
animals can feel it and get to
high water or get to high ground
to avoid the water rising or get
over here where it's safe from the
earthquake.
They know.
And the highly sensitive are
similar.
The other thing is a highly
sensitive person will
self-sacrifice.
Highly sensitive people would
build a human bridge to get
everybody to safety and they'd
drown because that's what they're
built to do is they're built to
make sure that everybody survives
that can, right?
There's this altruistic nature.
Is that almost a version of
empathy that's gone toxic?
It could look that way, but that's
how it looks in the model, in the
society that's gone.
I mean, I call it the silent
system that we can all feel, but
we can't articulate, right?
It's challenging to say this is
what is really going on with
society.
But no, I don't think it is a
toxic trait in a society that runs
how humanity runs, which is based
on natural equality and unique
expressive expansion.
It's a very different world.
That is the hope.
You know, a lot of caregivers will
be heard saying or thinking,
I really love them, but I merely
feel like an employee or a staff
member.
When does caregiving stop actually
being loving and becoming
something you do not to rock the
boat and to just keep your place
in the family and just keep the
peace?
Well, sadly, I think it's more
common to do that.
Either for some, it's to show,
look at what I did.
I take care of my parent who's ill
and I do all of these amazing
things.
It's a way to posture in the model
to show off, to prove who you are.
I think for others, it's a heavy
situation where they go home and
they are torn.
They, I mean, one of the postures
in the model is withholding.
And on the enabler side of that,
meaning the person who's more
giving and wants to help everybody
and not let anybody hurt,
that becomes, I leave the
caregiving situation where I'm
there helping and I ruminate.
And I can't, I recklessly go into
thought that I can't set down.
And what I've found in clients is
the second generation, if they
haven't addressed that rumination,
which I call it self-abuse,
you're not stopping to let that,
you don't know, so let it go
because you'll never know what's
going on there.
But the secondary piece that I've
seen in clients is their next
generation, their children will
self-harm.
Unless the parent clinches that
and stops that behavior.
So it depends on what you do with
it.
If you have healthy outlets to let
out, you know, like walking in the
woods or deep breathing or, you
know,
the possibility of meditation or
socializing with friends,
especially intimate friends that
can sit quietly without talking,
the likelihood of you being able
to restore off of friendships and
situations that are positive and
powerful for you.
That's great.
But if you are so bogged down by
all of it that there's depression
involved or anxiety,
and you're not feeling safe at
all,
it's a recipe for, I mean, you
know, disaster for them.
It's a big burden.
It's the importance of real
friends as opposed to deal
friends.
I can't remember, I can't take
credit for that.
I'm trying to rack my brain as to
where I saw that recently because
I've seen lots of information and
thoughts coming across my feed.
But the person who said it will
know and I don't take credit for
it and they can DM us to remind us
who they are.
But I think that really, really
hits home.
Are the highly sensitive children
who perhaps have not been nurtured
the way they needed at particular
risk when they become caregivers
in the future,
is that like the perfect storm for
significant caregiver burnout and
that whole cascade of effects that
can happen?
Is that almost a way of trying to,
we had to look at all caregivers
and sort of do a,
create a boot camp or some sort of
thing to say,
life is going to change right now.
You need to take an inventory of
what you've been through because
there's something coming.
And maybe if we do a bit of work
now,
that'll be a more graceful
passage.
Yeah, I mean, I think that it can
compound if you had a childhood
that was traumatizing as a highly
sensitive,
that to me, it hits you at a
deeper depth.
And so if you're dealing with that
and carrying that forward,
you're absolutely right.
Making the pathway paved with a
therapist that you already know so
that you can go and get the
support you need.
Or, like we talked about a group
of friends, ways that you can have
outlets to let it out that are
safe.
Because I think the main piece
that I'm hearing in your question
is,
if there's not safety, what
happens?
And there's not safety if there's
this dynamic going on of the model
or codependency,
you know, which the model is
pervasive.
I've found it everywhere.
We're not immune to it.
It's interesting.
You know, we've done some work in
previous episodes exploring
elements of this,
but not quite at this level of
depth.
But when we do post clips about
caregiving and the notion of
caregivers losing their identity
and having to set boundaries if
they're going to get through that,
we actually get comments saying
that, you know, your parents gave
you your life.
They gave you your life.
They dedicated their whole lives
to you.
The least you can do is take care
of them.
And now in reality, most people,
when we think about it,
probably didn't have a perfect
childhood.
So what is that belief defending?
And why do outsiders cling to it
so hard?
Just that they gave their whole
lives to you.
You owe them this.
It's the least you can do.
Well, it's part of the title of my
book, The Status Quo.
And that's the problem is people
say these things all the time.
I mean, I travel in Eastern Europe
a lot and a lot of people will
say,
well, that's just how he is.
And I say, that's not true about
him.
He's not an aggressive, mean
person or, you know,
this is how it is and that's it.
And that's the end of the
conversation, you know,
that there can be this aggression
there.
Or saying that, you know, you only
have one family and you have to
show up for them
and you have to be there for them.
Parents are a vehicle by which
children arrive.
But that doesn't mean that that is
going to be a relationship that
sustains.
If there's been trauma and
particularly messaging to the
people who might be a possible
scapegoat,
the most powerful thing to do in
many circumstances,
and you work with a therapist and
figure out if this is your case,
is to move out of that family
dynamic.
And I say, move out of it until
you can be there.
There's a possibility you'll find
the power within to know how to
manage it
or to know how to change that for
yourself so that that behavior
stops.
But until then, that's a massive
vulnerability.
And that's what the family doesn't
want is vulnerability.
They don't ever want you to move
out of fear,
which we do that through
vulnerability and then we move
into self-expression.
They really don't want us for you
to self-express.
So they don't want to hear your
boundary.
It's amazing.
You know, caregiving can slowly
just train people to ignore their
inner signals,
their true self, their needs,
their limits, everything.
I mean, it's all coming out here.
They ignore their own truth.
I mean, this is the model at work,
right?
It is.
And it's also a piece that has to
do with caregiving,
which makes it unique, is its
crisis.
And it's as though you're in a
constant crisis for years and
years,
depending on what's happening with
that person's health and their
body and their mind.
And that's, you're operating at
such a high level that the stress
is imminent.
It's constant.
I mean, the model didn't just
start one day.
It's, it's, it's, it's a live
dynamic entity and there's
probably some selectivity, right?
There's probably some good in the
model, some choices that have been
made over centuries as
the model has evolved that, you
know, that there is some goodness
in some of that shaping,
which we believe is important for
society.
How do we understand the positive
and negative traits of the model?
Well, it's interesting you say
that.
I've never been asked that
question and I don't see any
positive thing to the model.
Nobody benefits from it.
It purely is based on two forms of
control.
And those two forms of control
continue to swing like a pendulum
back and forth.
And so we never stop.
And that's why we feel like
society is moving faster and
faster and we can't stop.
We're more anxious.
Kids that are 18 years old are
more anxious than they have been
since I read part of a book
by Tamara Chansky.
It's about anxiety, but in it, she
states something to the effect
that kids that are 18 years old,
this was quite a few years ago,
let's say 2014 or so, are more
anxious than people who were
institutionalized for anxiety in
the 1950s.
And it was something like 80% of
18-year-olds are more anxious than
these people that were
institutionalized for it in the
1950s.
So this is no surprise.
This is the model clamping down on
us saying, what are you going to
change?
And really what I found in my
first unfolding with what the
model is, was through parenting
my children.
I'm not going to go into it in
great detail, but essentially, I
could tell something was
wrong within me.
Something wasn't sitting right.
And I went after it by watching
other parents, looking at what my
parents did.
And then I said, I want to do not
what my peers are doing, which
they do the opposite or the
same as what their parents did.
And so it took me two years and
some parenting techniques came
that kept this knowing alive
in my kids.
It was just pure luck or maybe
kismet.
But then what happened is after
those two years, I broke out of
this model and it honestly, it
felt physically painful to me.
It was a very strange experience.
But when I broke out of it, what I
realized is the power is in the
middle and we keep
missing the power because we're on
this pendulum swinging control to
control.
That's why we see politics are
more polarized in all of this.
So then when I looked at the power
in that, a few years later into my
parenting where I became
really solid, people would come up
to me and say, you're a magic
parent.
And I'd say, that's no magic.
It was hard one.
But I tell that because it's,
that's what happens outside of the
model is it becomes so
easy to do the thing.
It became so easy to parent my
children.
The good tension of love was there
and caring and seeing that they
know best for themselves
in every circumstance possible.
And I'm there to only guide or
coach when necessary, that I let
them make the mistake and have the
consequence, whether it's personal
or the consequence comes from me.
Sometimes the consequence is the
learning and that's where the
future power comes from, right?
Yeah.
And in my work, I say in the model
that that really fuels the
hierarchy and the hierarchy
asserts
that some have no consequences,
while others have far too high of
a consequence.
And those who have no
consequences, gone unchecked,
they're the very ones that set the
tone for
society, but because of no
consequences, they've never fully
matured.
So in effect, we're living in a
world that never matured from my
perception and my work past the
age of about 16 years old
emotionally.
And we're stuck there.
And that's what I want to change.
So the model has that influence
early on, but then I imagine it's
alive in different forms
and or reshapes itself over the
course of one's lifetime.
But when one person gets
conditioned to serve a family,
like how does a caregiver get back
in touch with what's truly unique
and true to themselves and
actually start building their life
back or at least
showing up a little bit more as
their true selves?
I know it's not a switch or a
black and white moment, but it's a
process that needs to be
initiated.
But how do they start building
their life back?
Yeah, well, the first piece is
they won't know their needs,
particularly in a dysfunctional
situation until they find safety.
And often in my work, I recommend,
particularly for a scapegoat, they
step away from the dynamic
because it's very challenging to
heal the dynamic when you're in
it, even if you're learning new
tools.
What I've found personally is when
you've learned these new tools and
you feel, I feel so much
much better.
And then you're back at the
dynamic that created this with
you, that what you learned
and the trauma ends up getting
stuffed down further.
Like you had it out, you had it
up,
you were dealing with it.
And then you don't know what
happened.
All of a sudden, it's like the rug
was pulled out from underneath you
and you feel even worse.
And this is why stepping away to
take a
break and do the healing.
But first you have to get at that
nervous system and calm in order
to be
able to function and know what
your needs are.
I've always been of the opinion
that to deal with that sort of
tension, sometimes we choose to
give
more and giving actually becomes a
currency.
And I think that could even affect
individuals' choices
to enter medicine or allied
health, where the giving actually
becomes that currency to deal with
the
tension that arises.
And as you say, until you step out
and actually say, well, what do I
need?
There may not actually be space.
And you actually unlearn that
habit of identifying your needs
and
actually feeling empowered to
choose one of your needs for a
change.
Right.
And I really don't even think
people in this circumstance can
choose their needs very easily.
They have to first have that
safety because the emotional has
to be addressed in order to say
it's safe and okay to have a need.
That's how most family dynamics
leverage it is you don't have any
needs.
It's amazing.
Caregiving for an elderly patient
or ailing family member can just
snap you back so
quickly into these childhood
patterns or like recollections of
walking on eggshells, keeping the
peace, earning approval.
Why does that happen so fast and
so easily when the call to
caregiving
is heard?
Well, in part, I believe that, you
know, we tend to be caregiving for
an ailing parent when we're in our
40s or 50s.
And that's a point where the
fractal patterning, and I'll
describe that in a minute,
is so built up.
That's why people have a midlife
crisis.
So if that energy around it is so
high up,
and then we're caring for this
parent and it's in our face, it's
right there, we can't get away
from
it, it's going to create the
cataclysm for us to realize we
have to make choices and changes.
And the fractal patterning is
simply, say that you had an
altercation with the person you're
caring for
when you were six, then it's
likely you had another situation,
maybe not from that caregiver,
but from somebody else up in
society, a teacher at 12, and then
at 18, and then at 24.
And until we
address that and stop the fractal
patterning, that builds up.
And that's why a midlife crisis
tends to
occur, is we get to 40 and 50 and
we say, I can't hold on to this
anymore.
It's become too large.
Is that second adulthood, to quote
James Hollis, and that moment's
reflect people's true attempt to
let go of the model once and for
all, so they, in their second
or third or maybe fourth to last
decades of life, they can
re-embrace the knowing?
Yes, except for the people that it
seems the system worked for, the
people who could adhere to the
model
without too much challenge, they
may never grow.
And I look at that as the
availability of that is that
they hold the structure for
society while a whole host of
people can change and shift into
being
outside of something like the
model.
But yeah, I mean, there's
definitely evidence there of
our later years.
Even in astrology, there's the
Chiron return for the wounded
healer, or no,
wounded warrior, I think is what
it is, or, you know, it's about
healing yourself.
And that hits between 50 and 53.
Even in menopause, they're finding
that women have a hormone that is
discharged in their body until
their children are a certain age,
so that they keep the peace to
protect the children.
And once that's done, that women
that are post-menopausal, they
don't care,
they'll say whatever they want,
because there's no risk of hurting
the child.
Interesting.
All of those play into this
concept, right.
Many caregivers describe a state
of hypervigilance, almost dread
and feeling on edge every day when
caring for a controlling and
critical parent.
What happens to their nervous
system in that environment?
Well, yeah, I'm not an expert on
the nervous system, but if you're
coming in not feeling safe
already, because there's history
there, and the history hasn't been
solved where the parent is,
or the person you're caring for,
isn't responsive to it and kind of
trained with it, it's just making
that nervous system, you know, rev
up even further, right?
And there's a beauty in that,
because it gets
us to the point where maybe we
will go to therapy.
Maybe we will go on that retreat
and get help
to recognize the difference
between how wound up we are and
what the regular set point would
be for us.
What's the tipping point we need
to look for?
I mean, we have listeners now who
are sort of probably
scratching their heads wondering,
geez, have I felt that moment yet?
Is it to come?
Like what,
from your experience working with
clients, where does that tipping
point, that realization moment,
like
what do you have to get to?
Is it number of times you feel
dismissed, number of times you
feel hurt?
Is there, how do we know?
Well, I think one sign of it is we
become highly emotional, overly
emotional.
And the reason that
happens is we're at a place where
those emotions are so overwhelming
now, because our nervous system
is so wound up, and we don't feel
safe, that we can't hide it or
push it down or just endure.
And so I'd say that's, but that's
probably a breaking point of
something has to really
change quite soon.
But that's the problem with this,
is I find a lot of people who are
caregivers or the more sensitive
types in the family can endure a
lot.
And they had to learn that
to survive, because the world was
overstimulating.
It was a lot to take in.
And now that is not serving us.
Probably 20 times ago, they should
have said no.
That was the breaking point.
Or when the person
became ill, here's who I can and
can't be.
Right?
And I would rather have somebody
say that to me so
that I know, and listen to the
word I just used there, so that I
know.
And then I can find somebody
else who can fill in these other
pieces.
We need a massive system of
people.
We can't rely on one
person.
It's not realistic.
It's not sustainable.
You know that.
Yeah.
I mean, caregivers are so often
trained to normalize what
shouldn't be normal,
to just push through and stay
quiet and keep functioning.
I mean, can we pinpoint even first
signs of when someone's not just
tired, but they're truly entering
that phase of complete
self-abandonment?
Well, Mark, I'm going to say that
nothing about the model is normal.
That's why
nothing about it is good or works.
But to answer your question...
That sounds a bit nihilistic,
though.
I mean, I need to understand a
little bit more.
Nothing good.
Is it because...
Not because of what the
model has chosen, but rather just
the concept of the model is the
problem.
Because it doesn't let
for self-realization, but not
everything that the model stands
for is inherently bad.
But it's the
process that the model functions
by that is the problem.
But what happens is it degrades
our ability
to self-express so that we feel
suffocated.
So when you...
Let's bring it back to the
question.
I think
it's a perfect segue...
Is when people have tightness in
their throat.
When they go to
CareGive and they feel like, I
don't want to do this.
Or they have tightness in their
chest.
Or gut
tightness or some sense of like a
stomach ache.
These are signs.
Headaches are another way that the
stress
is mounting.
And look to the physical.
They're also...
I mean, I'm in the spiritual a
bit.
So I look up
things such as, what is the
spiritual meaning of a headache?
Or of a left foot or left ankle
hurting.
And often we can track it back
because it will show emotional
components.
And we can directly correlate that
to the person we're giving the
care.
You know,
oh, that makes sense.
And our...
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
You know, our bodies are able to
heal themselves.
They're self-sustaining.
But we're just learning
how that's possible.
And that moves into what is kind
of quantum about us.
But that's very human.
Very human and not very well
learned and not very well taught.
Well, because it's not proven.
And science doesn't like that.
But when I like, I've had so many
experiences
that prove it's true, that I've
learned to trust it.
But that took me years.
Because it's odd.
I thought,
am I just that creative?
Am I just that lucky?
But no, it's very powerful.
When someone realizes that what
I'm going through is not okay, I
have to change something.
What's the
smallest first choice that they
can make that actually shifts the
system in the family without
waiting for everybody else to
agree?
Setting their boundary in the sand
and saying, you know what, I have
been doing this for X amount of
months.
And I've, you know, that's what
worked.
And now this is what's going to
work for me.
And you are going to need to
figure out the rest.
Or I can facilitate this part of
that.
But that they really set
boundaries that hold like this.
They talk to friends who have been
caregivers.
They talk to maybe a support group
so that they understand the ins
and outs.
When we're essentially what we're
doing is we're parenting other
people in that moment,
the caregiver is to their siblings
or the support network.
And they need to find if there are
any
holes in the boundary that they're
setting.
So a quick one, if a teenager is
out of control and
they really weren't parented very
well, the parent might call all of
the friends' parents of the child
and say, I need us all in on this.
What are the holes in my plan?
And that all the parents,
maybe the teachers at school and
the parents that are the parents
of this child come together
and work through the plan, it will
be flawless.
And the child has no out and has
to receive that
consequence fully.
And so this is how we need to
think about it is what are the
statements and what
is the statement?
Because that person may be weak to
the situation with their siblings
or the other
caregiver group.
If the group says, well, you can't
do that, they might say, okay.
But they
have to go through that process
with their friends in that safe
group of people to get the
concepts nailed
down.
It also being that they're in a
stressful situation and their
nervous system probably or could
be very wound up.
They might need to rehearse those
lines.
They might need to say it three
times in the morning and that 10
a.m.
try not to read it and say it.
And if they can't, they read it.
And at noon, try and say it
without reading it to really
reinforce that they have the exact
words they
want to say and be succinct.
So Amy, tell me, what's one of the
biggest breaking points in
caregiving when siblings
just don't share the load and the
people doing the least are often
the ones with the biggest,
loudest, clamoring voices and have
the biggest opinions?
I mean, how can siblings raised in
the
same home develop such wildly
different moral stories about what
they owe each other and what
they owe their parents?
Well, it's the dynamic of the
family has different roles that
the children
have to play.
So one is the favorite child of
the father.
One's the favorite child of the
mother.
One's the scapegoat.
And that dynamic will show a
resurgence in times of stress.
If a parent
passes and they're reconciling the
estate, that can get caught up for
years because the siblings can't
agree.
And I have an interesting
situation in my own family that I
think is worth sharing.
When my father was ill, we all
agreed on everything.
And what was interesting is for
the care conferences
or for like my father had a brain
injury and he ended up getting out
of the locked unit he was in
for his own safety, you know, and
the people showed up to deal with
that situation that were fierce,
but really cool under pressure.
So the right people showed up in
the right situations.
And it was magic.
And so in a way, I looked at my
father as healed because he was
getting the best care he could.
Now, we did play different roles
to some degree.
But for some reason, the level of
enmeshment in my
family had us seeing our family
all the same way.
It's very rare.
But some families and some
caregivers
listening to this may have that
experience where the family
actually agrees and it works.
But if there's not, we want to be
aware of our role.
And as I've said, the scapegoat
role of people
talking behind your back and
saying, you know, she or he's so
bad or these made up things
is toxic, too toxic.
It's not a safe position to be in.
But other roles like the favored
child who's
there with their beautiful coiffed
hair and they're saying how much
they do for the, you know,
the person that needs the care.
And we can say, is that true?
We can call them out and see what
happens.
But there's probably not much
likelihood of change unless we all
go to therapy, unless we all
get help where it's constructive.
And there's a good mediator there
to help us see our part.
And that's probably really rare in
a family that has a wild dynamic.
And it would probably take a long
time to fix.
But
certainly perhaps a good
investment for a family,
nevertheless.
I mean, that's how change occurs.
Change isn't easy.
And I mean, it could also be
viewed as a bit of a blessing if a
family is
successful at reprogramming the
relationships in a way that makes
them healthy moving forward.
families often excuse that sort of
harmful behavior of the care
recipient saying they're old,
they're scared, just let it go.
You know, you kind of alluded to
that a little bit earlier
about some cultural mentalities.
But can a caregiver actually tell
the difference between what sort
of
stress provoked and longstanding
narcissistic patterns of
entitlement, control, and cruelty,
and a loved one they're looking
after?
Probably.
I mean, and they also might be
able to see the degradation of the
parents.
You know, they are in more fear
that they're ill or they're
reacting as a child.
And so they may see,
boy, that conversation we just had
sounded like I was talking to a
five-year-old.
They might recognize some pieces
and they could look at that as
it's a harbinger of the parent is
regressing into that time when
they were five and kind of
reciting some trauma that they
had.
But on the whole, I think it's a
tricky piece because the person
who is caregiving and that primary
caregiver particularly can be
under so much stress that it's
tricky to process things mentally
and make
sense of it.
Everything is moving so fast.
They have their regular life to
maintain.
And within that, they may be
raising children.
They may have their own things
that they're taking care
of as well as a job and who knows
what other things.
And then trying to figure this out
can be
burdensome instead of possible.
Also, to go back to the family
dynamic, every sibling or every
person
involved needs to agree that they
want to be a part of that.
And most don't, particularly the
person
who's there saying, "I do all of
this and I'm so amazing." They
don't want to heal because the
story
for them is, "I'm perfect and
amazing." Why would they want to
change that perception?
They wouldn't.
do you think something you just
mentioned sort of stir to thought,
but getting back to highly
sensitive
people and highly sensitive
caregivers, we're hearing a lot
about the sandwich generation
these days.
And do you think highly sensitive
people who are caring in the
sandwich generation
are particularly vulnerable or do
you think they might be actually
more resilient?
Well, I'm not, I've never heard
the term the sandwich generation.
Can you say more about that?
So it alluded to the individual
caregiver who may have to look
after their own children and then
look after an aging parent and
their own responsibilities, their
own jobs, etc.
So they're sort of sandwiched
in this caregiving role from both
ends.
And the attendant pressures of
that form of caregiving seem to
carry with them, I think,
a state of overwhelm that can
amplify quite significantly.
And it's proving to be a
challenging
dynamic as the society's dynamics
in aging populations and more and
more caregivers and statistics in
the
states suggests that, you know,
more and more caregivers are
taking on that dual role and
assuming
the caregiving requirements for
elders in the family while trying
to still run their own families
dynamic day-to-day life and
challenges that come with it.
And with that comes increased
risks of
caregiver burnout, caregiver
exhaustion, and obviously
depersonalization and all the
things that come with it.
Well, what I can say.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, you go ahead.
Sorry.
Well, in that context, it was
making me think, like, if
someone's highly sensitive,
can they navigate that more
easily?
Or are they more vulnerable to the
impact, even for the same
degree of background childhood
trauma, let's say?
I mean, I don't think there's a
trauma-less
childhood, right?
And it depends on your definition
of trauma.
Not having an extra
cookie at dinner time is probably
not qualifiable as trauma,
although some might say, you know,
all trauma is trauma, but that's
up for debate, I think.
Yeah, I think it depends on the
dynamic.
If the person has a track record
of setting good boundaries
I think they're going to have an
easier time.
I also think it speaks to the age
of their children.
If they have children who are in
their teenage years, I'll say it
this way.
Parenting energy,
the energy it takes to parent
never changes.
It's consistently, maybe the word
would be intense,
but once children are in the high
school era, or to make it more
universal, you know, 13 to about
22,
that is a time where children need
a lot of emotional attention and
children are very emotional.
And so if the parent is raising
children in that time zone of
ages, and then working with a
parent or
caregiving to somebody, I think
it's going to stress them more,
because a lot of the problem is
stemming
from that primary emotional
situation for them.
And it tends to be that that's the
age of our
children when we're caring for
parents, that they're going to be
in that zone of age.
So that's how I would speak to
that.
So lots of potential for
compounding there.
Family caregivers, you know, get
painted as the villain almost the
moment that they set
those limits.
And we've spoken a bit so far
about that.
Can you
give us one sentence a caregiver
could use, and say that it's firm
and not cruel,
but so they could actually feel
good in the moment afterwards,
even if the family reacts badly?
Yeah, I think that the best thing
to say is what their need is in
the way of, because I can't,
I can't decide or figure out what
their need might be, but it might
be,
I'm only able to care for mom on
Tuesdays going forward.
And when the family starts to say,
and this is the important part,
that's not fair, or you can't do
that.
Why are you doing that?
The
person's response can be, I can't
say.
And what's the reason that works
is, it's true.
They don't know
why they're doing that, but they
know inside they need to, and so
the people tend not to buck that.
And if they do, the person can say
to them, when the person asks
again, why can't you do this, or
this is
ridiculous, or whatnot, I can't
say.
If you say it twice, they tend to
back off.
And it's because energetically,
what you're saying is, I don't
know.
And because you don't have
anything to prove, and you're not
posturing in this model, and being
in a sense controlling, they can't
resist it.
And they, well,
that's how you are.
They might say something snide or
crummy, but you got to let that
go.
So that's a
key statement.
The other thing is to say to
yourself behind the scenes with
the crummy thing they say at
the end, so what?
When you get in the car and you're
ruminating, you say to yourself,
so what?
And you know what?
The first time you do it, you
might have to say it a million
times on that car ride
home.
But we process through, so what
that that happened?
So what that mom got the wrong
medication
today?
Everything's going to be okay.
So what?
It's a day of painfulness for her.
It'll be okay
tomorrow.
We have to learn to let go.
We can't make everything perfect
for somebody who is ill.
That's their experience.
You know, building on that, a lot
of caregivers,
despite awareness of strategies
and techniques, just can't go low
contact because a parent needs
constant care, and maybe in
certain situations there really is
no one else.
What can the caregiver do in those
high contact situations where
there are no alternatives to
defend themselves against the old
patterns of control and
manipulation?
Well, this is hard because it's
asking them to do more before they
can have something change,
but I would look to all of the
programs that are in your area
and, you know, can this company
boss situation that's afforded by
the community come and pick that
parent up and bring them to their
their appointment?
Are there channels or ways that
the parent can have an online
conference call?
What are the ways that make this
more streamlined and easier for
you so that there's less
attention that you have to pay to
all the details?
Can you have a friend or a friend
of the parent who
gets involved to go and listen at
the care conferences so you have a
second pair of ears to hear all
the
information, particularly if
you're stressed?
It's very hard to take in all the
medications and
the ways that everything works.
Can you have a care nurse come in?
Is that afforded by the health
care
plan?
Or is the parent ready to be in an
interim care facility?
Or what are the options there?
And to be
proactive so that if you see and
you're going to know that the
parent is failing, something's
changing,
your intuition is going to be
there because you're close to this
person, that you start
getting, you know, onto lists of
where the parent could go in the
event that they're too ill to be
able to care for in home or
whatever the scenario is.
That's what I think is look at
your resources
and don't be afraid to use them.
Ask the friends of the parent, can
you come and help?
Can you sit with
my mom for an hour this afternoon
while I run errands?
Or, I mean, the situations are
going to be
diverse and different, but how do
we get that support?
I know in the community where I'm
from,
there were programs where somebody
could come and sit with an ailing
person for four hours and they
were screened and trained to some
degree.
And there was a little bus that
would come and take the person
to the doctor's office and help
them into the building.
And it was safe and secure and it
was
really low cost because it was
subsidized, but there are options.
And in truth, what we want to do
is allow
that person who is ill to have as
much autonomy as possible.
And that might make the person
who's ill
afraid.
Like, why can't you be there for
me all the time?
But in the other respect, if it's
filling
you to have more energy for that
person to share with them in their
life and in the moments that are
quiet,
you can point that out to them.
This gives me more time to sit
with you and hold your hand when
you're
back at home.
It gives me time to sit and make a
puzzle with you or whatever they
love to do,
to paint the picture that this is
the opportunity within it.
And they can be angry, but you
just need
to go with it.
You know, like I say with my kids,
I parented them so that they had
as much autonomy as
possible.
And I let them make their own
mistakes and figure things out as
much as they could.
But when I'd say to them, this is
how this is going to go, they'd
listen because I rarely said that.
They really heeded it.
They were like, okay, mom, right?
There wasn't resistance because I
wasn't
constantly controlling them and
saying, this is how, you know, now
do this, now do that.
There was more of a freedom in it.
There's something empowering about
making that first choice.
And I think a lot of
a lot of caregivers find
themselves just unable to make
that first step to reorganize the
approach,
especially when they're sole
caregivers.
And more importantly, those freed
up hours actually may
allow them to go to their own
doctor's appointments for once.
The one appointment that's been
postponed and
delayed perhaps six months,
perhaps a year.
And we all know how much self-care
can be hindered by the call
the caregiving.
But that notion of building the
network and actually recognizing
and I think reshifting
your mental framework as a
caregiver that this is holistic,
this is a good thing.
And we've always heard
it takes a village, right?
Well, it takes a village at
different stages in our lives.
And I think there's,
you know, one perfect example of
building the village or building
the infrastructure to allow
you as an individual to care given
the most healthy way possible.
I think you really illustrate that
really nicely.
How do we not become enabling?
Is it just boundaries?
Is it firmness?
Is there a strategy here?
There is, but it's complex.
And it's so stupidly simple.
It seems mind-boggling to apply it
in every
situation so that we really clinch
it and get it.
But the reality is, as an enabler,
we are also
controlling things.
And we don't tend to own that.
Let me think about that.
Yeah, go ahead.
So how are we controlling things
as an enabler?
Well, so an enabler tends to have
these attributes that they
posture, where they posture in the
model.
It tends to be worry, and guilt,
drama, and withholding through
self-abuse.
So we talked
about the withholding through
self-abuse, which is ruminating
when you leave the event,
or overthinking, or churning it
around, you know, churning.
But the worry is a big one, which
is, it states energetically, I
don't think you can.
So if we think of the first time
our young 16-year-old, or whatever
age, got their driver's license,
and they dropped us at home, and
they're going to take the car and
leave.
If the parent worries about them
or thinks, uh-oh, what's going to
happen?
They're causing that energy to be,
I don't believe in you.
I don't think you can.
And if the child has to make a
snap decision, the chances are
they will fail it, because they
have this energy on their back of,
I don't believe in you.
Whereas a parent who addresses
themselves behind the scenes to
get to where they believe in the
child,
that child in the snap decision
moment is more likely to perform
well and know what to do.
They'll be with their knowing.
So these are big pieces is having
people that believe in us.
But then guilt is worthless.
It's a useless situation where we
say either you or I or both of us
are not right.
Like we need fixing.
Something's wrong here.
We're not going to do it right.
We see it in things like, take
your coat, Jimmy.
Well, you know what?
If Jimmy doesn't take the coat and
Jimmy's cold, Jimmy's going to
learn next time to take the coat.
And these consequences help us
understand, oh, that's a bummer.
I'm sure you are cold.
Yeah.
Right.
And parents don't let children
freeze or let any of that happen.
But we need to be aware of,
particularly like with the highly
sensitive child,
they tend to notice things at five
to seven years old and then eight
and nine, and they see the
structures that are coming.
And if we can get ahead of that
with them and help them at home
understand those structures,
they have a much easier
relationship with education and
with the social structure in
school.
But we tend not to do that.
We tend not to be proactive.
So then I'll mention drama.
We talked about it a little bit
before.
That's where somebody uses perhaps
false information that is
amplified to try and get
attention.
So it's, well, I just got mom's
test results and one of them is
very high.
And when we go and we actually
look at it, it's not any higher
than it's been.
But that person wasn't engaged and
didn't know that.
So they're making all of this
story up to try and make it seem
like, look at me, I'm hurting.
But really what's going on
underneath all of it in all of
these circumstances is I have
needs that have gone unmet.
And I worry about you because
actually I'm worried about me.
And that's why we have to deal
with ourselves behind the scenes.
Yeah.
So to take those very powerful
examples from teenagehood and
childhood as a parent,
when we're now a caregiver of our
parent, how do we translate that
skill set into the caregiving
moment
where we have a decision to make
or an opinion to state that's
actually perhaps received with
difficulty,
but in the moment, in the best
interest of the care recipient?
Well, it's the sandwich generation
that you're talking about.
One of the unfortunate things
about people that are in
Generation X is we likely parented
our parents
and then we grew up and we
parented children and now we're
finding we need to parent
ourselves.
And it's mind-boggling.
How do we get through all of this
life without ever being parented
and not parenting?
Now we have to parent ourselves.
What is that?
So in effect, what we can do is
look at it as parenting our
parent.
Well, mom, this is what's going to
have to happen.
We're calling the shots to some
degree in certain circumstances.
Or what do you want to do about
this?
Okay, it sounds like you're not
deciding.
These are the two options.
Do you want the red socks, the
blue socks?
But it's going to be higher level.
Do you want this therapy or that?
We're simply treating them like
they're a child that we're
parenting to help them come
through
and bring in the most powerful
decision and choice for them.
The truth of it is, if the parent,
well, the patient is under a lot
of stress,
their likelihood of being able to
make choices is going to be low.
And that's where some of the
burden is.
We're making choices for a
situation that's not ours.
That's a bit unfair.
It's a bit mind-boggling.
And some people are really good at
that, but there's not any autonomy
there.
And that's part of what makes it
really stressful.
And I think recognizing that when
the patient's under so much
stress,
some of their executive function
is compromised.
I think there are some studies
that have looked at brain imaging.
And under such chronic and our
acute stress,
executive function or blood flow
to the areas of the brain
that's involved in executive
decision-making is actually
reduced.
And, you know, that may have some
impact on those abilities.
So understanding that might
actually sort of make a caregiver
sort of feel,
okay, well, you know, maybe I do
need to step in in this way.
But what does emotional detachment
look like without cruelty in those
scenarios?
Like you allude to, well, mom, you
need to make this decision or that
decision.
You know, we need to be able to
process that as a caregiver.
We need to step back a little bit
and detach.
But how do we not feel like we're
just being cruel in the moment?
Well, we don't have to be mean
about it.
It doesn't have to be crass, but
just straightforward, you know,
deliver the information and see if
they're willing to make a choice.
I do think from parenting to this,
we have to be forthright about it.
We can't also say, well, what
would you like to do?
Because they're likely to say, I
don't know.
Versus, mom, would you like the
red socks or the green socks or
whatever it is, this therapy or
that therapy.
When we give them a choice, it
narrows the parameters and makes
it easier for them to make a
choice.
And the parent might be in a
situation where they can't hear
all of the pros and cons.
And so it may be if they say,
okay, I want this one, that sounds
like a good choice because of X,
Y, Z, and we reinforce that with
them.
Or, you know what, I'm thinking
maybe this other one is a good
choice.
We help shepherd them into the
decision.
But if they're resistant, they're
going to have a hard time.
Both parties will have a hard
time.
So if we can ease in, but be
forthright, this decision needs to
be made.
And here are the two choices and
not overwhelm the patient.
I think being forthright and
loving can find that unique blend
in those moments and make things
feel just.
You know, when big phases of
caregiving come to an end with
either transitions to long-term
care, hospice, or even death,
the family system often reshapes
overnight.
When that old model breaks, how
does the caregiver rebuild the
life that's theirs again?
Yeah, well, it takes some rest, I
think, first to get back to some
sense of square one of, you know,
rest and actual sleep and getting
back to who they are.
But I also feel if there's been a
lot of trauma in their past, it's,
you know, therapy or some sort of
an option where they have support,
a support group, something where
they can return to themselves and
have that.
I mean, even this, I would say to
my clients a lot of years ago,
never sit in fear alone until you
can.
And if you call me at two in the
morning, it's possible I'll be up
and I'll pick up the phone.
It's not likely.
But if you leave a message, I'll
contact you as soon as I'm able.
And you know what?
Nobody ever called, but those
clients kept coming back and back.
And the reason they did is I left
a placeholder for them that I'm
available for them.
And in the middle of the night
when they were up, they'd think, I
can call Amy, she's there for me,
but I respect her and I won't
disturb her life.
But I know she's there.
And that's, a lot of us needed
that as children, that we didn't
have a parent who we knew was
there.
We were afraid to go in in the
middle of the night when we wet
the bed or we were scared or had a
problem.
You know, we were unsure if we
should do that, right?
So we're reconciling these
long-held patterns and we need
support to see our way through and
out.
I mean, some of that is my work,
is supporting how do we move free
of the model, this system that
isn't serving anyone.
Yeah.
So with this big transition in a
caregiver's life, is that a period
of vulnerability in the model
where we have the best chance of a
rebirth into our own knowing?
I think it is an opportunity for
it.
I don't think it's the best
opportunity.
I think a lot of opportunities are
available to come through.
But I think in today's era, we're
ready to let the model fall.
And it's on time to talk about
this.
So in the other sense, yeah,
that's a great opportunity if
you're a caregiver to say, I'm not
going to perpetuate this with my
children.
And I've noticed until children
are about 30 years old, we can
change the pattern and they will
come along with us and change it
themselves.
And that's important.
We can think of it that way.
I'm doing this so that it changes
things for my children.
And while we may never reconcile
it with that parent, we also will
acknowledge at some point that
parent played an incredible role.
And they were an incredible
teacher to move us into a state of
fully expressing ourselves.
Because the contraction was so
fierce.
Now we want it so badly, we'll go
through the pain that it takes to
find our way through.
Sounds like a pretty important
opportunity to put a break in the
energy of generational trauma that
sort of flows through the model.
Yep.
Thank you for being here today.
What an amazing discussion and
shedding light on so many
important elements that contribute
to the caregiving experience.
And the wealth of knowledge you've
shared with us today is really
unique and compelling.
And I'd like to thank you for
being here.
Where can people follow your work
and how can they learn more about
your contributions?
We're going to obviously put the
link to your book called Know in
the show notes.
When is your next book coming out?
Well, I already wrote it when I
was writing the first book.
Mark, first let me say thank you
for having me.
I've really enjoyed our
conversation as well.
And I think the best place is at
my website, which is just my name,
Amy Vasterling, which should be on
this information that I've sent
you so you'll be able to share a
link.
But just amyvasterling.com.
And I'm on YouTube and LinkedIn
and so on, so I can be found many
places.
But my book is called Know,
K-N-O-W.
And then it's where the status quo
ends and you come to life.
There it is.
It's a great read.
Yeah, it is a quick and easy.
I wrote it for the positioning of
a handhold to say this is where we
are and this is what's going on.
And the feedback I received was
people could apply it to their
unique life.
And most of the people said to me,
you said exactly what I could
feel, but I couldn't articulate
for myself.
And I thought then the job was
done.
And my next book, I don't know
when it will come out, but I guess
that one just came out in
September of 2025.
But I've written it from the
position of narcissistic social
disordering, and I'm going to talk
a lot about disordering and how we
look at that from a very different
angle in our world and what that
means and how the model has
impacted that to become something
perhaps it's not.
Yeah.
I look forward to reading it.
Thanks, Mark.
Thanks for joining us from
overseas today.
We appreciate your contribution
and we hope to have you back.
Sounds good.
Thanks for having me.
That wraps up this week's episode
of the Caregivers Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark.
We look forward to seeing you back
next week for another interesting
discussion with our upcoming
guest.
If this conversation gave you
language for something you've been
carrying alone, you're not alone.
You're not wrong for needing
limits.
Amy, thank you for being here.
I so look forward to reading your
next book.
See you next time.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to
remind you of something important.
The conversations you hear on this
podcast are here to inform, to
support, to spark reflection.
We're not a substitute for
professional medical advice, care,
therapy, or crisis services.
Listening to this podcast does not
create a doctor-patient or
caregiver-client relationship
between us.
If you're facing a medical
concern, health challenge, a
mental health challenge, or a
caregiving situation that needs
guidance, I encourage you to reach
out to a qualified professional
who knows your story.
If you're ever in crisis, please
don't wait.
Call your local emergency number
or recognize crisis hotline right
away.
You deserve real-time help and
support.
The views you hear on this show,
whether from me or my guests, are
our own.
They don't necessarily reflect any
organizations we work with, are
part of, or have worked with, or
been part of in the past.
This podcast is an independent
production.
It's not tied to any hospital,
university, or healthcare system.
Thank you for being here, for
listening, and most of all, for
taking the time to care for
yourself while you continue to
care for others.
I look forward to hearing from
you.