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Future-proof your leadership with High Octane Leadership, a place where business leaders—whether by title or aspiration—share cheat codes for unlocking workplace excellence, lessons learned along the way, and insider tips for future generations of next-level professionals. With a career rooted in building people and businesses, Donald Thompson is an award-winning CEO, speaker, and author who empowers leaders to scale with purpose. Over the last 25 years, he has helped startups and enterprises alike drive cultural change, unlock performance, and deliver exceptional results through strategic leadership.
Find him on LinkedIn, and listen here to learn how you can become future-proof too.
High Octane Leadership - Episode 179
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Dr. Debra Clary: [00:00:00] For me, I decide to create an environment where people can speak up. I create an environment within my team that I'm gonna model what it's like to be heard, seen, and valued.
Donald Thompson: Welcome to High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. This season we're diving deeper with more solo episodes where I'll share the experiences that have led to recognition by ey, Forbes, fast Company and others, not as a boast, but as milestones on my entrepreneurial path from growing multimillion dollar firms to successful business exits and building high performance teams with a global perspective.
I'll reveal the insights and strategies from my journey and share them with you so that we can win together. Alongside these soul episodes, we'll have industry visionaries and thought leaders, and we'll explore effective leadership ready to empower your leadership journey with real success stories.
Let's embark on this transformational journey together. [00:01:00] Welcome to another edition of High Octane Leadership. My name is Donald Thompson. I'm your host, and today I have the pleasure of spending some time with Dr. Deborah Clary. And, uh, one of the things that's really exciting, uh, about this topic, the name of our book is The Curiosity Curve, and we'll get into that in a minute.
But I'm highly curious and so I'm really excited about this conversation. Um, Debra is a leadership strategist and researcher. Who has spent over four decades at the helm of some of the most iconic brands, including Coca-Cola, Frito-Lay, and Jack Daniels. With a doctorate in leadership and organizational development, Dr.
Clary has moved from leading billion dollar brands to becoming a viral TEDx speaker, and even performing an off Broadway one woman show. Her mission is centered on a powerful principle. Curiosity is not a soft skill. It's a strategic superpower for growth. Today we're discussing how leaders can harness the power of wonder to thrive in an AI driven economy.
In her upcoming book, the Curiosity Curve. Debra, welcome to the show.
Dr. Debra Clary: Thank you so much. [00:02:00] It's a pleasure to be here.
Donald Thompson: One of the things that, um, is always interesting to me, and we'll get into the book in a minute, and I'm, I'm really, uh, encouraged to have you with us. Uh, today, talk to us a little bit about background, family, education, anything that would give our audience a sense of you as an individual.
And then we're all talking as friends and we'll dive into the, to the subject matter. So I wanna give you some space to, to kind of introduce yourself, something that maybe is not on LinkedIn.
Dr. Debra Clary: Ah, all right. Well, I was, um, I was born and raised in Detroit. I was the first person in my family to go to college, first one to graduate.
So that in itself is a lot of uniqueness when you find yourself years later in a boardroom of, wow. I started, I started at the bottom. I actually started out of business school as a teamster, driving a route truck for Frito-Lay. So when people say they started at the bottom. I pretty much was there. And so I spent, uh, [00:03:00] almost a year driving a route truck in Frito-Lay.
Uh, and at that time, Frito only hired people that were willing to learn the business from the ground up. Didn't matter what kind of degree you had, who you knew in the organization is you had to start, um, at, at the bottom. And that. Route truck became my classroom. You know, when I would have drinks on Friday night with my girlfriends who were working for Proctor and Gamble and Colgate, and they looked so pretty and they had a company car, and I was a little banged up.
I didn't smell so sweet, but I, I realized something pretty quickly is they weren't learning what I was learning. Uh, and so I, I really think that experience on a route truck, uh, propelled my trajectory. I think it's why I advanced so quickly and it's, I, I really credit to. Pretty much everything I learned was on that route truck that helped me in business.
Donald Thompson: That is [00:04:00] fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that. And one of the things is I talk with leaders, um, really across the globe in, in my, in my practice, in different work that I do. But I love the backstory because there's always that unique, something that makes us special that we've had to work through, overcome.
And in the case of, uh, driving the route truck, right, I mean there's that gritty. It shows that it's, that it's been there from really, really early on, so thank you for sharing that. That is
Dr. Debra Clary: You're
Donald Thompson: welcome. Really, really great. One of the things that, as we now fast forward into your career and, and the brands that I mentioned are obviously some of the most iconic brands in the world, that you've had experience growing and developing and being part of those corporate teams.
Talk to me a little bit about the journey through those big brands that have led you right to these big questions.
Dr. Debra Clary: Yeah, so as I mentioned, I started as a route driver, but I actually spent 10 years at Frito-Lay in various sales and marketing and operating roles. And [00:05:00] I would, I would get to a position of feeling comfortable and then I would ask for a new assignment and I would zigzagging across the organization.
I wasn't a rocket ship to the top in operations or in sales, but I really wanted to understand the entire system and, and. How everything fit together within an organization. So I spent 10 years at Frito-Lay and then 10 years at Coca-Cola. And then I went to the hard stuff, Jack Daniels.
Donald Thompson: That is awesome.
Dr. Debra Clary: Yeah, it was like, yeah, people always make the joke, you know? Oh, Coke and Jack. And it was a good, a good combination. A good mixture, but it was, when I was at Jack Daniels, I. It was like the first time in my career where I could take a breath and begin to observe what was going on around me, and I began to wonder.
What made a leader great, or what made a culture great? Um, I had been so fortunate to work for, you know, these [00:06:00] Fortune 40 companies and seeing great leadership and great culture, and then I just really was. Curious on could I become a better leader? Could I be contributing to a better culture? And so that's when I decided to go back and get my doctorate in leader development in org design, just to go deep in understanding really for myself.
And then when I got through with the program, I thought, wow, I can help others understand what it means to be a great leader.
Donald Thompson: That is really powerful. And I wanna ask a follow up question, and not necessarily naming a specific leader, but what are some of the attributes that you learned that make a leader great?
Like what are some of those things that, that you really have seized upon both in your experience and your research?
Dr. Debra Clary: Yeah, so the best leaders I've had in my career are those that ask the best questions of me. They were genuinely wanting me to try to solve the problem on my own. They would [00:07:00] ask a series of questions that led me to the conclusion of, wow, I think I have an idea that can actually go make this work.
And so a leader that asked questions and then had the confidence that I could go out and make it happen.
Donald Thompson: One of the things that, um, in, in my work, um, you know, I have a lot of businesses. I've invested in a lot of consulting, but my full-time job, I'm the managing director for the Center of Organizational Effectiveness at Workplace Options.
And so we do a lot of work on culture and performance in the workplace. And so here's a question I wanna unpack, and I'm going a little off script, but this is super important. We talk a lot about psychological safety. In the workplace and creating that environment. How would you say that leaders who ask questions versus making statements contributes to people being safe, feeling that level of, um, confidence that they can really speak their mind and answer the question without fear of looking bad or saying the wrong thing.
How do those things work together in your mind? [00:08:00]
Dr. Debra Clary: The, the best leaders are those that create a culture of curiosity, and you do that by. Rewarding people that ask questions, you know that you acknowledge them, you support them, and also those that are poking at the, at the system and saying there's a, I think there's a better way of doing that.
It's one of rewarding it, and then having a conversation around that. To me, something like the, when I'm working with executives, I'll say, when somebody asks you a question, I want you to say, I don't know. Let's look at it together. Don't have all the answers, but enter into a conversation where their opinion is just as valid as your opinion.
Donald Thompson: Alright. This is good stuff. Um, alright, so let's unpack this right in, in, in the, in a couple scenarios I've experienced because I believe every single word you just said. [00:09:00] I like it. I want to model it. I wanna continue to get better at it. How do we help when that structural or hierarchy system within companies, even when you do that as a leader, how do you create that environment where people trust to make that step with you, right?
Versus still seeking that over reliance on approval before they'll really voice their opinion. So I hear you. I agree with you. In practice, sometimes I see that people are still resistant because of the titles, the structure. How do we battle through that friction to get to the moments you're describing?
Dr. Debra Clary: Yes. So it's, it's very real. I've, I've seen it. I've been a part of it. I've contributed to it. It's this, um. It's about being led the way you want to be led. Meaning just because your leader is doing things that are not conducive to this safe environment. It's one of saying, for me, I [00:10:00] decide to create an environment where people can speak up.
I create environment within my team that I'm gonna model what it's like. To be heard, seen and valued. And it's, it's one of those things of being the role model for what it is you want to be seen. Now, I've, I have seen this where your leader doesn't behave that way. So you're leading a team and you have a leader that doesn't behave in that way.
The best thing you can do is continue to model it and also in a. Respectful way, challenge your leader. When your leader says, this is the way it's gonna be in a thoughtful way, say, I understand where you're coming from and I'm wondering if you'd be open to, to a different perspective. Now your leader might say, Nope, this is the way it's gonna get done.
And you understand what you're, you're working within that system, but you. Don't have to behave that way.
Donald Thompson: [00:11:00] I really appreciate that because that's real world for many people that are listening. Right. And so what you did was unpack how to implement, right? And I love the phrase you used, right? I wonder if we could look at this from a different perspective, and that does two things, right.
It keeps the conversation open one more moment, right? Yeah. And then it puts that leader in a position where they can decide and, and I think that's an appropriate way of both pushing the envelope but then also understanding the political nature of companies and hierarchy and different things. And so I think that's great.
Great advice. How did you, of all the things you've studied, the vast experience land on the Aha moment. That curiosity was the leverage point. Right. How did you come to that, that aha moment?
Dr. Debra Clary: Yes. So it all happened within a two week period and it started with a joke, a question, and then a puzzle. And so I was, uh, in Rome and I [00:12:00] was taking a train from Rome to Florence, and I'm sitting next to this very handsome Italian man, and he says to me, oh, are you American?
I go, well, yes I am. Yes I am. And he says, oh, I have the best American joke. What do you get when you ask an American a question, an answer, and he starts laughing. People on the train are turning to look at us and you know, I was the gracious American and I smiled and I nodded my head, and, uh, I didn't get the joke.
But as I spent more time in Florence, I began to watch Europeans in conversation. I'm like, wow, they have different conversations than Americans do. I just began to observe it and wonder about it. I came back to work. I'm sitting next to my Cee O in the boardroom and somebody was presenting and he quietly asked me, Hey, do you think [00:13:00] curiosity can be learned or is it innate?
Said, I don't know. That's, that's kind of interesting. And at the end of that week, Gallup released their engagement report. And in the history of measuring engagement, they had never seen it so low. And those three things I started to wonder, could curiosity be the missing link in organizations? That's how I started this journey.
Donald Thompson: That is fantastic. I, I think, um, let me, let me ask a question on, on top of that answer. When you were talking with your Cee o, can curiosity be learned or is it innate or part of someone's DNA or natural? What was the answer to that question?
Dr. Debra Clary: So I went out and I did a little bit of research and discovered that curiosity can be learned, and that's what I said.
But there's not [00:14:00] enough data that I'm satisfied with. I need more research. And because I, I mean, I came back to him and I said, oh, Bruce, it's definitely can be learned. And he's like, oh, that's really interesting. And I said, there's got to be more. And that's why I commissioned a group of researchers to go out and study curiosity.
Specifically. I asked them to, to look at is there a relatedness between. Leadership, curiosity and performance. And of course they tried to talk me out of it. We need to go, we need to look at all, all this different stuff. And I said, I don't wanna invest more into this unless I can answer that first question.
Is there a connection? And disgruntled, they went off. And then three, three months later, they came back and said, how'd Janelle? How'd you know, and I said three decades. Navigating complex [00:15:00] systems is how I knew is, you know, being able to have that experience in this, these, like this awareness that there is a gap.
And I came down to, it's a curiosity gap. It's a curiosity crisis.
Donald Thompson: So when you, when you have, so the curiosity gap and, and it makes me think of. Frameworks and assessments and different things. How does one go into organization and, and let's just say which I do, I am aligned with what you're putting down.
I'm a believer. How do I now put this into practice within my organization? How does, how does, how do you assess where I am on this curiosity, adoption curve, if you will? How does that work?
Dr. Debra Clary: Yes. So when I work with executive teams, they're coming into it with skepticism, like right, like curiosity, right? I have to remind [00:16:00] them that this is the data and that there's a direct correlation between a leader's level of curiosity.
And performance, and we are measured on performance. We're not measured on cur curiosity, right? So each quarter our board is reviewing our what, what are your results? And so when they begin to get interested in this isn't just a nice to have, this isn't just a luxury, it's, it's gonna drive performance. So then they, I get them nodding their heads and say, tell us more.
And so in order to increase curiosity, you have to first understand your starting point. So we have a curiosity curve assessment. Okay. That we can, we can measure individuals, teams, and organizational levels of curiosity. And you know this so well, like. Engagement is a local phenomenon. Curiosity is a local phenomenon.
So, so goes your leader, so go, so goes the team.
Donald Thompson: Yep.
Dr. Debra Clary: And so what I do now is I work with organizations that really wanna create a different type of [00:17:00] culture, a performance culture, but it's centered on curiosity. And we measure individual and team's curiosity. Numbers and then we share them. Like any diagnostic tool, knowing self and knowing others is the power in moving things forward in relationships or in business results.
And then it's this awakening of how they approach problems, how they approach innovation. They recognize they're wired differently than the person next to them. Just like any tool, we are all wired differently. But when I better understand you. I understand myself, change can occur.
Donald Thompson: I think that is awesome.
The, the thing I would add to that, back to your earlier points on questions, we ask as leaders, how do we know what to teach people if we don't know how they think? And so if we're just making statements right, we're not really learning about we're, we're now talking to and targeting implementers. [00:18:00] We're saying we wanna build leaders, but if you're going to build leaders, you have to know and understand them as people, as performers, as producers.
Right? And what, what are those things that, that create and produce the results. And so one of the things that is really big in our nomenclature, everyone's talking about it, it's the elephant in the room. How does AI fit into this? AI's gonna replace everything. No one's gonna have a job anymore. All the scare tactics, right?
And, and some of that is very true, right? There are some things at the lower levels of businesses, the routine things that are going to be automated. And I believe, and I'll get to my question in a minute. That that's actually gonna put more pressure on leaders to lead their high octane performers.
Because what's gonna happen is you're gonna have more routine work that's automated. AI driven all the things, but the people are gonna be your highest producers that can work anywhere. Right. So how do you think about AI and how it lands with [00:19:00] leadership, with curiosity, the things that you're describing.
Dr. Debra Clary: At the root of AI is the ability to ask questions and the ability to ask questions stems in curiosity. So there's a direct correlation between AI and curiosity. 'cause it, it, it does nothing until you ask a question. Now, it may in the future with automations and things like that. Um, but I, I truly believe it is an accelerator of leadership.
It's accelerator of performance and it's deeply understanding. How can we optimize it for better business results?
Donald Thompson: You know, a lot of times we, in our societies, right, globally, we get hung up on what you call a thing, and if you talk to a leader and you say prompt engineering, they go, oh, that's cool. If you say curiosity, they say that's a soft skill, but prompt engineering is structured curiosity.
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Debra Clary: Oh, I love that.
Donald Thompson: It's just, it, it's, it's really like, I, I really am loving what you're saying [00:20:00] because we all resonate to different word frequencies, and so the way you describe something is so important to whether you're able to communicate with the folks in your audience, on your team, or that one-on-one you're having.
And so what you're sharing with me is a way to use a different. Kind of angle, if you will, a different perspective, right. To come at some of the leadership development that we're trying to do. Because a lot of things, you know, when I think about ai, it's gonna address the how to do something, but there's nuance in execution with people.
Dr. Debra Clary: Mm-hmm.
Donald Thompson: Right? People are not a math equation. Right.
Dr. Debra Clary: A amen.
Donald Thompson: Right? And so that curiosity you describe, I think applies to how we innovate with products, how we lead others, right. How we learn. And, and so like, I, I, I think it's, it's really interesting. Here's my next question. What are some of the things that you do because, uh, and now I'm gonna talk [00:21:00] about our team and burnout and it's at all time high.
How does curiosity align with the overall wellness of you as a leader in your organization? How do those things intertwine? And I'm being a little specific 'cause burnout's, something everyone understands. There's a lot of folks that are listening in the audience that are still working hard. We're talking about work life balance, work life integration.
But when you're chasing, right, and when you're really trying to make your move, you can kind of forget the balance thing and, and focus on the the work thing. How, how would you weave in curiosity, leadership and managing burnout?
Dr. Debra Clary: So the, you know, the beautiful thing about being in an organization, and one of the things I greatly miss having left corporate America is that you're doing it in, you're doing it with people, you're in a relationship with people, right?
That's the, I think the, the joy of working at an organization in, in, in a corporation and in the sense of if you love the work you're doing and [00:22:00] you love the people that you're working with, it. It's this opportunity to set the boundaries of, this is what I'm mo most joyful. This is when I, I, I know that I need to spend time, or I want to spend time with my family, or I want to spend time at the gym, whatever it might be.
It's like being in that relationship with others where you can express, this is what I need right now.
Donald Thompson: As we wind, Tom, I'm gonna get a little more rapid fire on the questions 'cause I could talk to you all day and, and, and you, you were gracious and, and gave us, uh, a nice window. So I, I'm gonna rapid fire a little bit.
What's a bold question that you can ask when you're trying to get an organization that may be stuck or a team member right, to move to the next level in their thinking? What's a bold question that can kind of unlock right conversations and innovation in different things?
Dr. Debra Clary: What question have we not asked?
Donald Thompson: And unpack that for me. Why does that work?
Dr. Debra Clary: I'll give you [00:23:00] this story that. I had learned in graduate school, I read about it and it was under the, the, the umbrella of action learning, which is a way of getting a team to, uh, move things forward. And there were a group of engineers that had been in a, a conference room all day.
They had flow charts or graphs all over the walls. And the leader said, we haven't figured out what the issue is here. We're gonna have to. Stay in, have dinner and keep working. So they call Domino's Pizza. The Domino's guys brings the pizza in and he looks across the wall and he sees all these graphs and charts and he sees, you know, these engineers that are just exhausted and he just asks the question, Hey, what are you working on here?
And the engineers shared with that, and then they said, would you take a look at it? And he was able to figure out what they were missing. Now, this is a delivery person knows nothing about their business, but was able to help them [00:24:00] solve the problem. So it's when you ask questions in a different way or you bring people in that are not familiar with what you're trying to do.
This is when real change can happen.
Donald Thompson: That is really thoughtful. It's, I'm gonna extend that and you correct me, you ju like you're the, but what have we not asked? And then who have we not asked? Because the, the, the, the delivery person in that story, it could be similar to pulling someone that may be two levels below the planning group and saying, Hey, does this make sense?
Right. When we announce this, how's this gonna land? It's, um, it's, are we, are we building this for the right audience? But we haven't asked the right audience what they think. Right? Is, is what we, what we kind of see a, a lot of times in, in, in big organizations, which I think is, is pretty great. Um, here's kind of the landing question as we wind our time together.[00:25:00]
Let's talk about the future of leadership. I have in my notes as we've been prepping bold questions, verse best answers. So as we shift in leadership in the new paradigm, what is your advice, right? When we're talking about really creating environment where bold questions are the norm?
Dr. Debra Clary: Yes. I mean, just in its statement alone is the advice is.
To have the confidence to ask bold questions and then listen.
Donald Thompson: So, Dr. Cleary, I, I've enjoyed chatting with you. I'm gonna get the book. I have, um, read a little bit online, but I'm really excited about digging into it. Um, and that curiosity component. Feels, let me, let me share this with you. It [00:26:00] feels fuzzy until you unpack it, and then you created that link between leadership, curiosity, and performance.
And, and then it becomes powerful. The cool thing that I like is it becomes powerful in a way where I say I can do that. The biggest compliment that I can share when I talk to leaders, when I talk to authors and I stay in the learning mode, um, is when I hear something and then I go, I can implement that tomorrow.
It makes sense to me. I feel, feel good about it. I want to use your advice and kind of reciprocate. What have I not asked you? That you would like to share with our audience, uh, as we, as we wind down our conversation today,
Dr. Debra Clary: why is that we have become incurious? Why have we become incurious? Yep.
Donald Thompson: Do you think that is a function of all of these automation tools?
Do you think it's a function of we're just chasing that mathematical, you know, [00:27:00] prize, right? Whether it is revenue, whether it is Dow Jones, what do you, what do you think the answer is to that question?
Dr. Debra Clary: It, it's partly what you've said. Unfortunately, we've become incurious long before we get into a, a job or corporate role in that we are taught to be incurious as children.
Uh, for, um, those that, like myself, grew up in a Christian religion. The first story we learned about is Adam and e. Right. She allegedly got curious and ate of the right tree of life and, and then mayhem fell over the world. Uh, don't open Pandora's Box and Curiosity killed the cat. Now, let me tell you something about Curiosity.
Killed the Cat is my, I have it in my book and my editor pushed me to cite it. And I'm like, my mother. My mother told me, right? She goes, no, no, you gotta go deeper. I [00:28:00] go, Ms. Erickson, she told me and she goes, no, you're gonna have to cite it or we're gonna take it out of the book. And I was kind of mad like, oh, this is just more work.
And guess what? Curiosity killed the cat is only the first part of the sentence. Yeah. It was attributed to William Shakespeare in 1589. The sentence is Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back. Yeah. Nobody taught us that. So my, my point is, is that we're taught to be incurious and then we go to university, we become, you know, lawyers or accountants, and we get into the workplace already incurious, and then we're pressed for time.
We're rewarded for the output. All of that feeds back into being incurious. And my mission is to help [00:29:00] leaders become more curious. I let them know it is not your fault you were taught that way, but it is your responsibility to reverse it and together, let's reverse it.
Donald Thompson: That is fantastic. Final question for me, and this is, um, more about, I, I did my research and this is one thing that I've, I've missed.
You did a one woman show.
Dr. Debra Clary: Yes.
Donald Thompson: I want to hear about this, like we've talked about the book, we've hit that. We've talked about leadership. I want, I want to hear about this one woman show under the lights. How did that come to be? Like the Frito Lay truck? Awesome Checkbox, right? One woman show awesomer. I know that's not a word to my editor, but like that's really cool.
Tell me about the one woman show that that you did.
Dr. Debra Clary: So this is a, a story in borrowing others' belief in you until you own it yourself. And during COVID, I was in a woman's mastermind [00:30:00] group, executive women around the country. And then, uh, you know, we would share what our struggles were, what our hopes and dreams were.
In August of 2022, they said. We haven't been together in two years. We're all coming to Louisville, which is where I live. We're gonna celebrate something and I'm like, I like to celebrate. Right. That's awesome. I mean, I'm, I'm Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniels. I like to celebrate. And so they all come into town and they're toasting me.
They go, we're toasting Deb. And I'm like, I, I haven't done anything yet. And they go, oh, we forgot to tell you. Tell me what? We took your idea for a one woman show. We pitched it to a producer, and you're booked. I hadn't written anything. I'd never written anything. I'd never performed before. It was a pipe dream.
It was out there and they're like, you are ready. You are ready. And that's how that happened.
Donald Thompson: That is awesome. [00:31:00] Borrowing courage. Right? Because that is a, that's a different episode we'll have, because most of us, they, I don't like the term fake it till you make it.
Dr. Debra Clary: Mm-hmm.
Donald Thompson: I agree. Right? Like, just me personally, I, I, that, that's counter to authenticity, but in, in my opinion, but borrowing courage.
Believing what others believe about you that have your best intentions at heart, right? Believing the goodness that other people believe in you, and then just going out there and. Testing those waters. That's what you just unpacked in that, that one woman show, uh, scenario, and that is fantastic. How can people get in touch with you?
I know our audience loves this. How do they get the book? Like, do you have a po? Like, what, what can we do to stay connected, stay interacted.
Dr. Debra Clary: Thank you. Thank you for asking that. So you could go to my website and there's more content there. There's more videos there. And my website is debra clary.com and Debra is D-E-B-R-A and then CLAR y.com.[00:32:00]
And in there you also have an email where you can connect with me and then the book can be, uh, purchased at Barnes and Noble in a local bookstore, but also on Amazon.
Donald Thompson: Fantastic. Deb, it was great to spend time with you. Um, I really appreciate both your journey, uh, but also codifying that journey into something we can all use and value and grow.
And I wish you the best of luck with your book, the Curiosity Curve. Uh, I'm gonna have my team get it and I'm gonna unpack it and I may offline right, reach out to get a signed copy and all that. I have a little, little thing in, in all the things, but it was my absolute pleasure to talk with you and, uh, and hopefully we'll stay in touch.
Dr. Debra Clary: Fantastic.
Donald Thompson: Thank you for joining us on High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. Today's episode is a step in our collective journey towards leadership excellence. Remember, every story we share and every insight we gain is a piece in the puzzle of our leadership journey. For more insight and [00:33:00] detail, hit the subscribe button so that we can stay connected.
For deeper information and more episodes, go to donald thompson.com. Continue to lead with vision and purpose, and until we meet again, embrace your role as a high tane leader in the ever evolving world of business.