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Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership Podcast, where insightful dialogues and transformative teachings await. Join Aaron Kleinerman on a journey to explore the intersections of love, sexuality, and leadership. Through candid conversations with experts and live audio teachings, Aaron creates a safe space for self-discovery and empowerment. Embrace your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Dive into the mysteries of the universe and unlock the secrets to mastering the human experience. Tune in and embark on a path of profound transformation.
Ep 10 Vulnerable Leadership & Owning Shadows with Pele Ohad
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Love Sex and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power awaken your soul's wisdom and live an inspired life as a natural intuitive and heart centered leader
Aaron: Welcome, everyone. We are on another episode of love, sex and leadership and very excited to have a dear friend mentors come into my life many, many years ago and a really powerful being who I feel like has transitioned between many different worlds. And a lot of the subjects I talked about here on the show and very excited to
have
Pele.
Uh, on the show with us. Thank you for being here. I am happy to be here.
Hmm.
So, you know, the things I discuss on, on this podcast and really, you know, what I [00:01:00] find people are most interested in is this kind of conversational dynamics around, um, You know, conscious sexuality around love around leadership and, you know, from knowing your journey and really the journey that you've been on from being
Really a Kabbalistic
rabbi and transitioning and I believe almost getting kind of, um, Taken away from some of that community because your ideas were almost a little bit too too much in some ways and now, you know, the last many years working a lot in this field around, um, conscious sexuality.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm very grateful to have a dialogue and really the place I want to start right right from like. What always interesting to me is where the, the impetus to make a transition and to be the, the fish streaming, you know, going upstream and all the fish are going downstream and like where that, that drive initiated from to really stand forth the way you have in this [00:02:00] world.
And I just want to really honor and acknowledge you for doing that. It's, it's beautiful to know you and have you as a brother and a friend in this life. So thank you.
Pele: Thank you, Aaron. It's funny. You remind me of, uh, A very Jewish cause of what is kosher and one of the things about a duck. How do you know that the duck is kosher?
Is if it can swim against the stream, uh, because otherwise if, if, if it, if it cannot swim against the stream, it's, you know, it's not healthy enough, but yeah, I'm one of those ducks, I would say that, uh, uh, still is kosher. Um, it is, uh, challenging, but some of us just have it in our nature. To be, uh, those who open paths, uh, in the jungle and going with a machete and searching [00:03:00] for, for new paths, uh, recognizing that the path that humanity is
On
now is not a sustainable one.
We live in a, we live in a culture, in a society that is not sustainable.
Um,
I realized that when I was in the orthodox Jewish world, I did not grow up like this. I grew up secular. I was looking for truth. I was looking for meaning. I was looking for connection. And, you know, I went through Buddhism, shamanism, found Kabbalistic Judaism, which is my ancestral path and just like dove right in, became a rabbi, became a
became a rabbi, became a
teacher.
And then I realized that the way that Jews hold their own way is also not, is not real. It's not true. It's unhealthy. Let's [00:04:00] put it like that. Um, and a lot of the, of the mysteries that attracted me in were not actually the way that they live their lives. So it was like, okay.
I found
Myself, uh, searching for other ways and, um, yeah, love and sexuality, sacred sexuality, the sacredness of Eros.
Um, actually when I realized that in the ancient teachings of Kabbalistic teachings and the mysteries, um, when I realized that, and I realized how far it is from the way that Kabbalistic Jews live their lives today, I realized I need to, I need to, I need to move on.
Um,
So, you know, in the ancient times, it says that, um, the when people were studying mysteries, there was the [00:05:00] mysteries of the Merkava, um, the mysteries of Genesis of like how to create basically the creation of the physical world, the leading, the how, how to guide yourself through the world.
And the mysteries of sexuality.
Aaron: Mm-Hmm.
Hmm.
Pele: Sitre Arayot,
as the, as it's called in ancient, uh, al Hebrew. But, and, and it's connected to the, to the scroll of Song of Songs, she or Shiri in the, in the Bible. Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, that, that was used as. Sacred mantras in ancient times of love. Love and sexuality was used as a sacred sacred mantras to go in the chamber temple.
Um,
so this is not happening today. And I was just like, since I'm a truth seeker, so [00:06:00] it took me away, even though I got a lot of threats and direct and indirect, uh, that people don't like it when you leave those words. Um, yeah, but I'm still doing the same, you know, um, walking in paths that are less traveled, um, with the machete and trying to open paths.
Um, and by definition, us, the pioneers are getting scratched. Many times, many times we walk in paths that eventually we say, you know what? Don't take it.
Or, you know, when you go this way, here are some ways that you need to take care of yourself so you don't fall from this cliff or whatever it is. Um, [00:07:00] and it's sometimes, um, difficult because the people that walk behind you, Um, they wanted paved path and some of the paths will be paved and some of the paths are actually, yeah, they're, they're a bit, uh, dangerous and, and there are four people who are more advanced or you just make a mistake.
And that's the thing that we make mistakes. We all make mistakes, even leaders, even teachers, and because we're human.
Aaron: Yeah, no, I feel that and I can feel the vulnerability with that as well. And it's beautiful. Um, you know, and I guess what's fascinating to me is, you know, just hearing you speak and, you know, seeing many, you know, ancient tantric texts and many [00:08:00] ancient, um, you know, books and scrolls that speak quite highly.
And, and, you know, firmly around the, um, what the arrows sacred arrows has been brought up into the world. And just the question that comes alive for me is like, why, in many ways, do you feel like. The, um, why do you feel like in many ways that the, they feel like those things have had to be taken away with that?
Like people can't have those conscious conversations. They can't actually lead with that. And in many ways. That's exactly what you were saying. It's like, oh, those are that's forbidden to speak about arrows and in, in, in, in religion. That's forbidden that there, but it's actually in the text in which this religion and things are formed from.
So I'm curious your take on that, especially when it comes to the vulnerability of leadership and why it feels like [00:09:00] so much of that has been taken away from our, from our Vocabulary from our way of being when actually it's inside the roots of our civilization.
Pele: Yeah. These are big questions. Um, to my understanding, Eros is a sacred power. Um, Eros is one of the powers that creates the universe. Um, it's,
it's, not connected
to humans. Actually,
uh,
Eros is the power that connects subatomic particles together and created the first created matter.
Um,
Eros is what brings atoms together to create molecules and molecules to clash into each other.
In my [00:10:00] understanding, the sun is a constant orgasm because you know what's happening in the sun. What is the fuel that fuel the sun and all other stars? It's atomic fusion, nuclear fusion, so two separate acts
that
are attracted to each other so powerfully that they fuse together to become one. It's the two that becomes one.
What is sacred union if not that?
Aaron: And
Pele: this is what's happening. This is what's happening in the sun all the time. The nuclear power that humans, uh,
control
of to a certain degree is the splitting
and, uh,
creating
separation. And this is how, you know, [00:11:00] atomic nuclear power came to be. But the nuclear power on the sun is from nuclear fusion, which is lovemaking. And just think about it, that the sun Is a constant love making an
explosion of
of Eros and every millisecond that, you know, shines light to eternity and every part of life on Earth
is is affected and and and, uh, you know, actually happening because of this. We live from the power of Eros, the ancient Greek called Eros. God.
And this is so different from contemporary religion and religion today. Religious people are [00:12:00] shy when they become erotic. Like you go to synagogue, you go to church and and you know, it's the kind of the last place that you should be erotic or, you know, make love will be sexual. Um, because kind of God is doesn't like it.
You know, in Christian tradition, it's, it's total sin in Judaism. It's not, but it's, you know, totally unappreciated, um, in synagogue, but the ancient Greek, they saw Eros as a God, which means
when you become
aroused, when you become erotic, you are visited. By a God, you're enthusiastic. Enthusiastic comes from, from, uh, in Greek, from a [00:13:00] word that comes from being excited about the
divinity.
There is a divine, the divine power that comes into you when you become excited erotically.
erotically.
And this is how life is being created.
Eros
is the only way that brings souls into matter.
Aaron: There
Pele: is nothing, fucking nothing on earth that can take, that connect, that can connect from soul realm to
matter, except Sexuality.
No scripture, no sacred text, no temple.
There's
no meditation that I know that can take matter and bring [00:14:00] a soul into it, and it will be a baby.
Aaron: The
Pele: only meditation that does it is what we call what lovemaking is. So I look at eros as a big deep
mystery
of
the universe
that is here from before us, will be here after us.
It goes through us. We are like perforated, uh, beads, beads, sorry, perforated beads on a necklace, endless necklace. And the thread that goes through us
is Eros
Each generation or each, each person is a bead. But what goes through us is an eternal power that we call arrows. We forgot how to [00:15:00] relate to it as like this is sacred power.
This is cosmic power life. It's the mystery of life, and we forgot it.
Aaron: And
Pele: it's the mystery of love, of
allurement
of, of attraction. And we forgot it and we made it something to be ashamed of and something to hide and something to be confused about. And of course we are so confused. In Kabbalah,
sexuality
is
called
Yesod In
the in the
the, the tree of,
tree
of life, the is the spirit of
S
of your Yesod
which Literally means foundation literally to say sexuality is the foundation of your tree of life.
And if the foundation is not stable, of course, the whole, the whole building is not stable.
So
So in some ways it's so [00:16:00] big and it's so fundamental
that.
how could you not speak about it? But I'll tell you how, because people who are, from my experience, people who are, you know, Aware in their sexuality,
in
their eroticism, they are awake, they are not good, obeying citizens.
They
will not go to war because their stupid leaders told them to go to kill or be killed. They will not just obey, they are autonomous.
Aaron: The
Pele: thing is that, and this is part of what, you know, lately I pay a lot of attention and work a lot, you know, with, uh, with my partner, Katara, [00:17:00] a lot of what we are writing and teaching and working now is on this combination of what we call epic love, which is where love, freedom and empowerment,
which is in
in the tree of life.
It's the right, left and the center. The three columns. That's right. Love, freedom and empowerment are coming together. Just different faces of the same thing.
So
So
you awake as love, people use the word love for many things that are actually attachment, that are actually the contra, the opposite from the, from freedom.
But where love has the vibration of freedom, where love has the vibration of empowerment. This is when you wake up as love. And because you wake up as love, you're no longer controlled by authorities in the way [00:18:00] that unawake people are. And this is not in the interest of people who created religions, of people who control states.
So all, um, organized religions, To be honest, and I've seen it from from within when I was really inside the organized religion, are not interested in people that are really honestly sovereign beings.
Aaron: Hmm,
Pele: that ask deep questions. The Bible is, you know, there's the Book of Job in the Bible, which I, my first book, you know, many years in 9 94 or 95, I, I wrote my first book and it's a, it's a commentary about the book of job in the Bible.
And the interesting thing with the book of Job is that.
job.
Ask deep [00:19:00] questions is like really challenging God and all the, all the traditional people, all the rabbis, there were no rabbis, but all the traditional people back then, the friends of job, they're coming, they're telling him all the answers and the, the conformism that is, you know, coming with all the people who have all kinds of certainties of
tradition,
And the job is not accepting.
He's like, No, no, no, I don't accept that. My question is still valid, and I'm challenging God.
And
then eventually, when God shows up in the end of the book, um, when there is a revelation, Job says, It's not that you answered my questions, but I don't have questions anymore.
Aaron: Um,
Pele: but God says, Cheers to job. He's the right.
You know, [00:20:00] he was right to ask those questions. And
Tells the
the friends of job, all the traditional people go and ask for and ask forgiveness. Apologize.
So
So the Bible is actually saying, at least in the book
of Job
like, ask the big questions, don't conform
even
even to
even to tradition, even to what the sages did, or what your ancestors did, like, be like Job, like, ask the deep questions.
But religion is not interested in that. So religion is, and therefore, the way to control people is control their sexuality.
Aaron: So limit
So limit their sexuality. And in many ways, the very essence of why people even having that conversation and being able to have a chance to meditate and to pray and to connect to God is because of sexuality, but it's the very thing that they're condemning
underneath
it, [00:21:00] which to me just feels like a walking contradiction.
Pele: Yeah. Well, it's not only sexuality, it's eroticism
Aaron: and
Pele: eros is. bigger than sexuality. You know, as we as we age, um, I think less
of
our eros is channeled directly to sexuality. A young body is more sexual, but an older body is can be still totally erotic. You can be my teacher. Zalman, he died. He was almost 90.
He was totally an erotic person, even on a wheelchair, even As an old man, he wasn't, I believe he wasn't sexual, but he was totally erotic and the light in his eyes, you could see,
And he was
so
Eros
is
bigger
than sex. You know, as I said, Eros is bringing atoms together. It's [00:22:00] the coming together. It's the ability to open up in love and to unite and to merge.
Um, and yes,
Aaron: yeah.
Yeah, so, so to unite into love and, and, you know, the, this, this merging of, of we're speaking about here is how do we then take that uniting of love, you know, and, and lead from that place to lead from a place that actually
celebrates and
brings
in Eros knowing
that it's going to be. You know, at times attacked and ridiculed, which I know you've come across yourself and still continue to, you know, be going down that that road and in the jungle with a machete and feel like you can still find your own two feet along the way.
And especially now, what's happening in the world. I mean, to me, this conversation feels more alive and pertinent than anything, because what are we really fighting for? And, you know, [00:23:00] obviously, there's a lot happening. You know, you coming from Israel as well and like, how do we take this leadership of love and apply it into a society to, in many ways, it feels like to reclaim our righteousness and our truth seeking capacity as humans, you know, in these, in, in, in souls inside this body, but humans having this experience so that, you know, it's not that we don't need to fight anymore, but.
How do we create a leadership of love on this planet, integrating these pieces and making it alive to something that people aren't afraid of? Because in many ways, people are
afraid of Eros
They're afraid of what it, what it does and what it doesn't do.
Pele: Thank you. Let's take a deep breath. This is like actually what we really, really wanted to speak. Uh, I was hoping to speak about. Um, what is leadership of love [00:24:00] today? And especially when we realize that Love. Epic love is this combination of love, freedom and empowerment. Um, the love that is not taking away the empowerment, not disempowering people by guilt or shame or, um,
anything
that takes away their ability to
sovereign But
the love that allows other that allows everybody to
sovereign and what is
needed? How does leadership?
Work
To bring about,
I don't know if [00:25:00] my connection was cut. So yeah,
yeah,
how
does
leadership work to, if we want to create
a
society that will help everybody to be empowered, that will help everybody to be sovereign, sovereign beings and not follow authorities. So how do you become a leader of that? Because, you know, by definition, people look at you as a leader and they give you authority
Aaron: and,
Pele: and, you know, this is where I, you know, what, what happened with me is like people naturally
gave
me authority that I didn't want to have.
And because I didn't want to have it, it wasn't my blind spot. I,
I
did not recognize, I can say, I did not recognize
the, the way that people [00:26:00] hold me. Um, as an authority and project on the issues that they have with authority from their parents, the teachers in school, in high school, in the army, if it's in Israel. Um, and you know, I, I wanted all the time to create a society, a community and a society where leaders are humans
are
seen
as kind
of
older
brothers, I would say,
older brothers, older
sisters and not as parents.
Um, and I was trying to guide my community all the time, you know, to be, I was trying to be a friend and just like someone along the way that maybe walked some steps ahead, uh, and you can
give
some,[00:27:00]
Some
indication of the way. Um, but
never
wanted
Anyone
to take me as an authority.
Aaron: Uh,
Pele: little that I, uh, you know, it was, it was a wishful thinking because people do come, um, if we call it conscious community, people come from the unconscious world and they come with their projections on,
and they
project.
Parents
on leaders and the wish for the parents to be perfect, um, and the wish from leaders to be perfect. And what would it be if we as leaders can actually Stand in the fire and say, like, I am
owning my place
as a leader of [00:28:00] sort. You know, it doesn't matter if you're what kind of leader you are, if you're a teacher, a political leader, an author or whatever it is, an artist.
Um, I own my leadership and I also own my shadows.
Aaron: Mm mm-Hmm,
Pele: I
actually want you to see me not as
a perfect
being,
but as an
an imperfect being that is constantly working on one on myself
to
I like, I like this thing that says tomorrow I will make better mistakes, make better mistakes tomorrow. Like it doesn't mean that I will not make mistakes tomorrow.
I just like learning from the past
just
makes
it
better.
easier
to make better mistakes tomorrow.
Aaron: I do hope
Pele: that mistakes tomorrow. Um, so what it is to be invulnerable leadership[00:29:00]
in
the Talmud, the big Jewish text from medieval times, they actually say Um, I'll say it in Hebrew
and then in English. nme
parnas al ha
elaine
ken kupa shel shiratzim tluya
pashil shiratin kluyamahor Uh,
do not make anyone like a leader of the congregation unless they have a whole bank of impure issues hanging behind them. Basically saying, we don't want someone who is,
pure
and, and, and okay. Um, as a leader, we want someone that is acknowledging that they're fucked up. Um, so, and, and this is also in the, in the, [00:30:00] uh, mysticism, they say, this is a difference between King David and
Saul
Um, that King David was
actually
because
he, He made mistakes. He sinned in the ling language of the Bible. He made mistakes and he acknowledged the mistakes. That's why he became the symbol of, of leadership while
King Saul
made mistakes and he couldn't recognize that he made mistakes. Mm-Hmm. he was trying to justify.
Mm-Hmm. So I have to say, you know, one of the big things that I learned in this, um, uh, year and a half that,
uh, I
was going through difficult times.
is
I saw myself actually, um, in a place that it was hard for me to [00:31:00] acknowledge my, my own blind spots.
Um,
I'm
in
wanting
to be, wanting to be seen for my, what I, for my wishes, for my, what, you know, my, my goals.
You know, it's very lonely to be a leader. Sometimes you want friends and you're, you're hanging out with your community and it's really hard to, to know that your community can not be the people that you can totally play with. Um, these are your community. And I always wanted to be part of the community, like totally part of the community, just like to create a community so I can have people to hang with, to play with.
Aaron: Mm hmm.
Pele: And from this kind of place of, of, uh, of vulnerability, I [00:32:00] wanted to be seen. And because I wanted to be seen in my vulnerability, I actually made, I became a bit defensive when people came to me with their issues. Um, it's like, how could you, how can't you see, you know, that I'm Who I really am. And you know, my wishes and my and vice versa.
You know, I just created the same thing. I wanted to be seen and I created the situation that their wish to be seen with their they felt unseen by me. It's a tragedy. And, um, that happens a lot. And I one of the things that I really worked on myself and a lot with you. With amazing help that I got from friends and especially from Katara,
Aaron: my
Pele: partner who was kind of my coach in this
um,
Was actually to realize
to be on [00:33:00] defending myself,
to be undefending
myself
Aaron: and
Pele: how to open hope that leadership of love is is the leadership that can actually open Standing stand in the fire with an open heart And I was too defensive. I actually created,
I created a situation that I'm, I'm sorry I did because of my defensive. And for me, leadership of love is first of all, a vulnerable leadership.
Aaron: It's a
Pele: leadership that
it's a leadership that
can own, I own my gifts and I own the places that I can contribute to our society. And I also own my shadows, uh, own that. I have shadows that I have blind spots and I am in a constant, [00:34:00] um, work in progress.
I'm constantly in the work in progress. Don't project on me a perfect father, a perfect human being. I'm not. I'm definitely not. Um,
and.
and, um, and I'm learning to look at, to look at people who, who
to me with
With complaints.
It was really, really difficult for me to receive complaints, you know, um,
knowing
who I am, it's a feeling when people came with complaints, feeling was like, I kind of like, are you crazy?
What are you talking about? Like, you don't see the feeling in this, like you don't see me. You don't see what I am. What are [00:35:00] you projecting? What are you putting on me? It's like it's crazy,
But, and
Defensive
and they felt
unseen
Aaron: so it's
Pele: part of leadership of love for me today is to learn how to receive complaints as a request for love Someone who comes with complaints is actually saying, I need help.
Um, yes, they projected on me that yes, it's, it's, it might be distorted and, and everything, but underneath it, underneath it, there is the energy of like, I'm hurt and I need help.
Aaron: And
Pele: sometimes it's really hard to see that.
Aaron: Mm
Pele: So,
Aaron: Yeah,
I,
I,
I really
appreciate and celebrate what I'm hearing you share. And I can also really feel the heart [00:36:00] that comes with it.
I don't want to share, you know, a personal experience that I had with you really, when we first met, um, took a training with you and I remember. for myself, you know, coming from my own background and my own projections on what I thought the leader should be and all these things. And I remember being filled with a lot of judgments and ridicule and actually bringing them up to you.
I don't know if you remember this moment. I brought them up to you at the end of the training and there was just this really beautiful place that said, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm, I'm all of that. And, and you know, and I was saying, you're this or that. And it was just like, there wasn't, there actually wasn't a, pushing away.
There was just like a deep ownership of it. And it was such a shifting moment for me because I realized I had put so many projections onto a leader to need to be something perfect, that they needed to be something perfect and they had no faults. And I witnessed you lead beautifully, but lead [00:37:00] and there were, you know, there was some, there were aspects of some messiness and some things that came up, but there wasn't, uh, you know, you, you fully owned it, you know, and, and it was like, A beautiful gift for me.
That was a really beautiful gift because I realized that it opened the doorway for me to step even more into my own leadership and and in witnessing the way in which you held that gave me a deeper permission field to say, hey, I'm I can do this. I'm never going to be perfect. No leader ever, ever is going to be perfect.
And anyone who thinks that they're going to be is actually that there's a ridiculousness to that. And in that moment, it was like, wow, okay, I can, I can do this. Like there was a deeper permission field that came in because there wasn't. A denial of any of the things that I shared with you, there was an ownership of it, and there was a saying, Hey, and you are this also inside of you and is reflecting back to me and it really, it gave me a permission to say, okay, I'm, I'm ready to actually be [00:38:00] more of a leader in this field.
That's edgy. That's brave. That works with sexuality. That works with arrows. That works with, you know, things that people are constantly ridiculing. So I just want to say, thank you. You know, maybe it wasn't a moment you remember, but it was, it was a shift for me in terms of how I. Was getting to and wanting to show up as a leader on this planet.
Pele: Thank you. No, I do not. I remember you in the training. That was like, I don't know, eight years ago or 10 years ago. I don't know. Um, but I don't remember this conversation and I'm very happy that this, you know, I could respond like this. I can just.
Own it
that, um, I guess not always I responded like that. And, um, there were certain times that people came to me.
Um, I think especially with, uh, with complaints that had to do with sexual shadows, um, projecting, projecting all kinds of [00:39:00] shadows and sexuality on me, um, that, uh, that it was harder for me to, to receive like that.
Aaron: Um,
Pele: because I did not receive it like I did with you. I don't remember what you said
about
me, but, um, because I did not receive it, I actually created a, uh, a harsher situation for me.
Um, sexual shadows is, is we all have sexual shadows as well.
Aaron: Um,
Pele: And shadows are not monsters. And this is important to know. Um,
actually
just shadows that are unowned might become monsters. Shadows are just things that are not in the light of our consciousness. And the more we wake up, we bring, we can do more and more.[00:40:00]
Aspects of ourselves that in the not in the light of our consciousness into our consciousness with itself. It starts with self love, and this is one of the teachings that I carry from my my cabalistic training is like equal to the amount of self compassion that you have for yourself
is
the amount of shadows that you can acknowledge.
Aaron: Um,
Pele: equation because if you don't have enough compassion and you acknowledge a lot of shadows, you'll just collapse. Um, so there is an equation there and it's beautiful. It's a constant work. Um, and also it's more and more subtle.
subtle,
Like, you know, the shadows that after years of working on shadows, you still have shadows that are more subtle.
People who do not own their shadows, their shadows, and try to hide [00:41:00] the shadows even deeper, and just to create a persona of like, Hey, I'm pure. I'm okay.
Aaron: Mm.
Pele: And
Shadows become distorted.
Mm-Hmm.
And from distorted shadows is where evil come like the evil in my language is the wish to harm others.
Aaron: Mhm. Mhm.
Pele: The wish to harm we know only hurt people hurt people
Um,
only hurt people hurt people and which means it's a distortion.
The wish to hurt other people is because something happened to you and you're distorted and
um,
so shadows that are unowned and, and like deeply unowned and pushed to the. To
cellars
and, um,
um,
[00:42:00] out of the light of consciousness, then they start to knock on, they knock stronger and they become bigger and they become monsters. And then when they go out, they're dangerous. This is, this is what happens with a lot of people that only present, you know, they're beautiful and they're not sexual or they're very, very contained.
And then they get drunk or something and then their sexual monster comes
Aaron: out.
Pele: But actually, so what I'm trying to say is that owning our sexual shadows is a beautiful part of becoming more and more aware. Is to say. Yes, I do have aspects that are shadowy and shadow is not
bad. Shadow
is
just
like less in the realm of awareness and blind spots.[00:43:00]
So I, you know, I constantly find things that are in my blind spots. I, by the way, I have
literal
blind spot. I looked at this. I'm one of those people who I'm crazy since I was a child. So as a child, I looked directly at the sun in the time of eclipse because the teacher said, you can't. And I was like, Oh yes, I can.
Um,
I just, I burned the inner retina of my, of one of my eyes. So I literally have a blind spot, uh, physical, physical blind spot.
I see the, I see the sun all the time inside myself.
Aaron: In your eye. Well, I've heard, I've heard a friend doing a little this afternoon with
sun
gazing for a little bit too long. Yeah. So, you know, in, in regards to, you know, leadership and there's a lot more beings that are coming out into the [00:44:00] world and, and you could say they're, you know, sexual or erotic leaders, and they're trying to integrate this work and support people and, you know, getting themselves into this field more and more.
Yeah. And, you know, I guess the question is, like, to some of that, whether it's a younger generation or people who have, you know, taken the tantra practitioner
training
or
Done
the sacred sexuality training or work
Eros
and they want to start to lead and support people, whether it's one to one sessions or facilitation.
And what would be some of the, you could say, words of advice or encouragement to do it? With some of the things that you've learned along the way and to do it with a level of, um,
You
know,
integrity,
but also to not lose the divine sacred power
Eros
Like, where is this line between where we can, you know, own our erotic body own?
The part of us that is living and breathing
as Eros
and not [00:45:00] just become a regurgitation of information to actually hold inside a sacred field that celebrates arrows, but then doesn't get so pulled into what can be for many people, the shadows of arrows that I haven't been owned and integrated. So someone who's really wanting to lead in this field, like what would be some of the, the, the suggestions or, or takeaways that you could support them with.
Pele: Thank
you for the question.
Community.
Be part of a community. Practice transparency.
Aaron: I
Pele: think one of the problems of leaders is that they are not part of community. Part of, you know, this is part of of
of
the illness of our society today that we're not arranged in intimate communities. [00:46:00] Mm
Aaron: hmm. Have a
Pele: community that is
that
of intimate people. I'm not saying I'm not speaking about, you know, Facebook community.
A real community, even if this community is five people, 10 people, but people who see you, who you live in transparency with, meaning you, you can speak about everything. Don't keep, especially sexual issues in the dark practice, speaking about everything that you do, um, that you want to do, that you wish to do, that you're dreaming on.
with trusted people. Um, this is in my eyes crucial because then[00:47:00]
you get real feedback from friends and community. You're being seen a lot of the a lot of what happened, and it happens actually not only in tantric communities, but you know, in buddhist communities and in everywhere. Places that think
Present themselves as if, you know, there is no, we don't deal with sexuality or there is no connection between, you know, the people in power and the congregation or the community or the participants. It's not happening in our school. And then it's just a matter of time until a scandal will come to the light, something that the teacher or the teachers or the people in power were trying to hide.
So one
of the things I made, [00:48:00] I made myself as a, as a rule of thumb for myself. I, I never hid anything.
uh,
I was giving, um, and I still am living my, my life, my erotic life, my love life,
totally
in transparency, um, with, with the people that I'm in, in, in trainings that I do. I, in, I, uh, challenge people to be transparent.
About
About
what's
happening with them what they're
doing, not like not continue this habit of sex is not something we talk about. We will talk about all kinds of spiritual things and and not talk about what happened or, you know, who we want to explore with. Or maybe we had an exploration with. I actually invite people, uh, and invite the leaders actually speak about yourself and always [00:49:00] with with your students.
But at least have a have a community of people that you can have Peer review,
but
a real one that's transparent and vulnerable. Never. I think if people live double life, like there is a life of the persona and the life of the real person, uh, that's a recipe for disaster. Um, so be real. Like be real, um, explore yourself, explore your shadows, explore your, and, um, and
accept
it that you are an erotic being, and it's beautiful.
If you teach sexuality, allow sex to allow sexuality to run through you and
you know,
be an erotic being, be an erotic being in [00:50:00] whatever it is. You know, some people have eros with the cosmos and not with people. Some people, whatever erotic being you are, maybe you're monogamous, maybe you're polyamorous, and maybe you're a Cosmo erotic person.
And that's okay, but allow arrows to flow through you. So you don't deny sexuality and speaks about sexuality. I see a lot of the phenomenon in people who engage with tantra is actually a deep fear from sexuality.
A
deep fear from it that is disguised under tantric ways to control
Eros
It's basically using whatever tantric Taoist techniques, you know, breathe like this, control, contract here, move the energy up, you know, like, [00:51:00] you know, it's basically
the
same shame from sexuality
and
Eros
that you got from your parents and from your church and from school, you just now use it.
Tantric
and Taoist words to to speak about it. But you never actually did the work of
unshaming
sexuality.
Aaron: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. .
Pele: Um, and
unshaming
the fact that you have sexual shadows. And I want to explain what, what I mean when you, when I say sexual shadows.
we sexualize as we grow up and we become sexual being, we start to sexualize needs. So the needs to be acknowledged, become sexualized, and I, and, and I'm trying [00:52:00] to get acknowledgement and validation through having sex.
Aaron: Mm-Hmm, , uh,
Pele: the need to be, uh, seen is sexualized. And in order to be seen, some people feel like, well, only if I have sex with this person, I will be seen the need for status,
the
need
for. belonging
This is something that happened and we need to be aware of like people want to belong to community and the tantric or conscious community is a cool community. And some people, I know that in ISTA, I didn't realize it enough, how much people sexualize themselves
because
they think, they assume, a wrong assumption, that in [00:53:00] order to belong, they need to be sexual.
And
Aaron: I mean, it's just so
Pele: sad. This is
I mean, it's just so sad. This is so sad. I want to say, you know, you can belong. You can be in order to belong. You need to be authentic.
Aaron: And if
Pele: your authenticity is that you want to meet with many people, go ahead. But if your authenticity is that you want to be monogamous or, or, or not to have sex at all, it's like, be authentic.
This is
what I want
You know, the ticket to enter the commu conscious community should be
being
integrity and be authentic, whatever it is, but it happened because we're not. We
did not speak enough. about it
I think we did not speak enough about it. So
people
got the feeling that,
Oh,
this is the
solution.
Sexual
shamanic
community. I need to [00:54:00] sleep with many people. I need to be very sexual and open in order to belong. And this is very, very sad. So the need to belong is sexualized. Um, the need to, the need to, to feel like I'm a man is sexualized. The need to feel like, oh, I'm a, I'm a woman is sexualized. So all those things are sexualized.
And basically people want to have sex, but they, they don't say why they're not aware of like what actually
is
pushing me to want to have sex.
And when we start to ask questions, then we start to become aware of our sexual shadows,
Aaron: And
Pele: and I'm not saying that it's wrong. There's nothing wrong. You might say, like, I am aware of that, and I want to do it like this, [00:55:00] and that's okay.
The
problem is when we're not aware, we're
we're not aware, aware
Unaware, we go into sexuality when actually what happens in us, there are other needs.
that are trying to work through sexuality, and then it creates misery. Um, so yeah, exploring our sexual shadows, even as leaders, even as tantric leaders or teachers. The fact that you're a tantric teacher doesn't mean that you finished to deal with your things from childhood, with your needs. For a nipple with your need, with your shame from, from how do you call it?
potty
training, um, from, yeah, there's this so [00:56:00] deep in ancient fears and shames, some of them are personal. Some of them are coming, um, through the ancestral line. They're generational and we carry them and it's okay to carry them. It's really okay to be fucked up. Um, if we're aware of it. Because we're, because you, I feel, you know, in, in Hebrew, there's in Kabbalistic Hebrew, there's this word,
Anava,
which
literally
means, uh, humility, but actually in, in Kabbalistic meaning, it's humility plus audacity.
It's the way to be in audacity. Like to say like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm a great soul. I'm a great soul. I'm a sacred soul. I'm, I'm [00:57:00] a miracle. There's no one like me in the whole history of the universe. I'm here to bring something. And I'm also fucked up like any other human being, and it exists at the same fucking time.
And I don't
need to hide. any of
So
it So
holding the, the
complexity of
what it is to be human.
Aaron: Right.
Pele: Is you know
know, what I, my big advice to anyone who steps into this field is, is to
be an
Anava, is to hold the complexity and the complexity of yourself and being integrity and part of integrity is owning your shadows, being a humble
uh,
and vulnerable leader, allow yourself to acknowledge that you made [00:58:00] mistakes when you made mistakes.
Even if even acknowledge it a year later, it's okay. Just like whenever you can just acknowledge and And help create another culture That is not like
cancel
culture today.
The cancel
culture is coming from a place that is totally immature There's still like oh if you if you're a leader and you made the mistakes we counsel you If you're I don't know if it's true, but I heard this beautiful story about someone that worked for Bill Gates in Microsoft and made a big mistake that they lost five million dollars and he came to Bill Gates and said like, well, I'm sorry, and I take responsibility.
I'm sure you're going to fire me. That's okay. And Bill Gates said, like, fire you? Are you crazy? I just invested five million dollars in your education.
Aaron: Yeah, [00:59:00] yeah, yeah. I love that. I love the place of actually celebrating that we are not perfect and that we, uh, the thing I heard a lot from what you're sharing is to have a deeper level of awareness and with awareness. requires greater responsibility, and that's also with the humility to step forth, knowing that no matter what shared, people are going to have their thoughts and opinions, you know, haters are going to hate people are going to have their thoughts and ideas, but actually to be a leader in this way, there's a deep vulnerability and a humility and a strength of the soul.
You know, the words you shared, and the audacity of the soul to actually set up and say, Hey, I'm, I'm standing for what I believe in this world. Not everyone's going to love it, but I'm going to do it out of the integrity of my heart, integrity of my soul. So thank you for doing that in the world. Thank you for the way you've showed up.
It's a, it's a gift and a joy to have you in my life. And yeah, I'd love to, to kind of complete if there's anything that's coming [01:00:00] up next for you or any exciting projects or new writings that you're doing. I know you have a couple of books out yourself. Um, anything you'd like to share with the audience about what's, what's upcoming for you.
Pele: Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, the books, of course,
Kedesha
that is like, uh, online in Amazon. But the new creation is that I'm really excited about is, um, the journeys that we call black butterfly that I lead with Katara.
Aaron: Uh,
Pele: created with her and reading with her. Uh, we just finished, uh, one that was an amazing, I mean, it was so, so good that people immediately said like, where are you doing another one?
And we are doing another one in mid February in Cyprus.
Um,
And the, um, the idea of the black butterfly is basically what we talked about is, is own your shadows.
Open your wings and fly. [01:01:00] So
So
to
basically, it's it's it's journey into the initiation of the soul. And I can talk about it for a long time,
uh,
which is I'm not because we're closing this. But, you know, it's an eight day journey of initiation of the soul. Um, which we we make the parallel to the life of to the metamorphosis of a caterpillar.
becoming a butterfly. Like, imagine what it is for the psychology of the caterpillar to think of becoming a butterfly. It's like such a different being. I mean, even different DNA. Um, that's why it needs to go into the cocoon, into the chrysalis. And totally go through transformation and metamorphosis from someone who's consuming and consuming and eating leaves to someone who's going to, I mean, what is the life of a butterfly?
Drinking
nectar and making, [01:02:00] flying and making love and being, and being, being marvelous.
Aaron: Uh,
Mm-Hmm.
Pele: so. This is the life of your soul. So what it is to live the life of your soul deeper into deeper in this world. I'll just say that when we experience trauma, there are parts of our soul that are leaving. And when we go through initiation, there are parts of our soul that are coming down into the body.
body.
And I have talks about it. And I'm in this part of my, my
burnings,
burning for
uh,
fire now in these days is how can we take our life experience? What does it take to not be victims of traumatic experiences, but to use everything as an initiation of us, which is it? It's what it is. Our soul is trying to initiate us to [01:03:00] Become more mature, more powerful, more magnificent, and to live powerfully in this life, owning the grief, owning the sorrow, owning the anger, owning our shadows, and opening the black butterfly wings.
So, yeah, this is like something that is really, um, alive for me and we're, yeah, we're gonna do another one in February, as I said, mid February in Cyprus. And probably later as well. Um, this, this journey is a really, I feel needed, especially because the field is so much talking about trauma today. When you speak about trauma, we see that everybody is fragile,
Aaron: potential
Pele: fragile.
When you, when you realize that everything that is traumatic can be also experienced from different perspective. as an initiation [01:04:00] of the soul, take, you move away from the
fragility
fragility into like, we are fucking here to experience life, to experience death, to experience difficult situations, high energy triggers, but we want to initiate ourselves through this.
So this is what I'm up to today. Unless working with Beginners and we're more working with people who did already, um, and willing to to dive deeper. I'm really excited about, um, guiding leaders, actually young leaders, um, people who want to work with with a lot of people. And if I can give them from my experience.
Of the last 30 years of teaching, and I'm happy to do that. Beautiful. Love
Aaron: that. Yeah. Well, thank you [01:05:00] for continuing to pave the
forward.
Thank you. to
Continue to hold your machete and cut through the jungle. There's lots of, lots of jungle here in Bali that I see every day. So I can definitely appreciate the analogy.
And yeah, I appreciate you. I really love and respect you and thank you for showing up in my life as you have. We're continuing to stand, stand alongside and be a fellow brother on this journey of, um, yeah, opening people's hearts and remembering the, the, the sacred, uh, connection to God, to divinity, it's arrows.
So I appreciate you and thank you for being here.
Pele: Thank you,
Aaron.