[00:00:00] Jeevan Sangha: Are there any interesting or funny stories you have from students coming and breaking glass?
[00:00:05] Brian Ditchburn: I have one student come to me and he wanted to shoot his thesis. I hope Jeff is doing well. I think he's a tenured prof in, in Ontario somewhere, but yeah, destructive therapy is open to anybody.
[00:00:15] Jeevan Sangha: Brian, nothing could have prepared me for that.
[00:00:17] Carol Eugene Park: Wow. I never thought to do that. Perhaps it's something I should consider.
[00:00:22] Jeevan Sangha: Yeah. Is your thesis kicking around somewhere, Carol?
[00:00:24] Carol Eugene Park: She is actually. Maybe I'll just, you know, Bring her over. Hello, friendly alumni. You've once again returned to From Here Forward, the informative but funny UBC Podcast Network podcast. We're your girls, Carol and Jeevan.
[00:00:38] Jeevan Sangha: That's me. Happy November! Can you believe it's nearly 2025? That's wild.
[00:00:43] Carol Eugene Park: I know, I'm so mad. It's really irritating how quickly the months fly by when you're not literally 10 years old. Speaking of anger, which I have an abundance of if it wasn't clear already. Today's episode is all about destructive therapy with UBC's resident glassblower, Brian Ditchburn.
[00:00:59] So the team sent Jeevan out to Brian's shop and what'd you guys do? What'd you learn?
[00:01:05] Jeevan Sangha: Okay, so before I tell you a bit more about what we do, I think it's important to remember that it's not so much about blowing off your anger, which is something I learned when I was at the shop.
[00:01:14] So for context, Brian makes and repairs UBC's scientific glassware in house. It's a lot of work and it's really cool. For students who are on campus and feeling overwhelmed with the demands of academia, he might invite them in to break a few pieces of unrepairable glassware for themselves.
[00:01:28] Carol Eugene Park: Interesting. Tell me more.
[00:01:29] Jeevan Sangha: Yeah. [00:01:30] So as you mentioned, producer Kylie and I visited our pal Brian at his workshop in the UBC chem building last week. And might I say it was quite the vibe. We learned a bit more about his day to day repairing and breaking glass for fun. He had set aside a bunch of unrepairable glass for us to break very kindly.
[00:01:45] And, you know, we got the chance to break some. Have to say it, it works. I had some like therapy level breakthroughs.
[00:01:52] Carol Eugene Park: Uh, can you expand more? What were these breakthroughs? I mean, I can't imagine throwing something is going to relieve you of all your demons. I [00:02:00] mean, I'm assuming you have demons, but we all have demons.
[00:02:02] Jeevan Sangha: Yeah, I've got plenty of demons, but I think what was so refreshing about Brian's perspective was like how neutral it is to break things. I was nervous at first, I mean, Kylie and I both were. I've always been taught breaking things is bad. You know, if I drop a jar at home or I break a glass, I kind of feel bad or panicked for a minute.
[00:02:17] But Brian was like, look, I make and break things all day. Sometimes something just doesn't work, and I chuck it, and I break it, and that's just a normal part of life. And one thing he said that I thought was really sweet was, well, it's just an opportunity for me to make something again, [00:02:30] which is a good thing.
[00:02:31] So yeah, it was a nice way to kind of go about my Friday. I really appreciated that perspective.
[00:02:36] Carol Eugene Park: I love that for you and your inner child. But I cannot imagine just being like, eh, I broke something. It's fine. I'm just curious, when you did break something, you were saying that you were nervous.
[00:02:46] Jeevan Sangha: I feel like I kind of tensed up a little at first.
[00:02:48] And it's this idea of having abandon, right? Like, I can just throw this? Nothing's gonna happen? I don't have to look over my shoulder. I don't have to be nervous about cleaning it up.
[00:02:55] He was like, It's cool. I'm gonna clean it up. There's probably glass on the floor anyways. [00:03:00] It's fine. Like, it’s just a part of the cycle of his work, so I think by the end, after we had a chance to break a few things, the shoulders tense down a bit, and you do kind of feel a bit different when you leave.
[00:03:10] Carol Eugene Park: Interesting. I think we should bill Brian, uh, uh, an invoice for your therapy session. Did you repair anything that you broke, or did he show you how to repair things?
[00:03:18] Jeevan Sangha: We didn't, but we did see this kind of space of his work. He tends to have students come in and he shows them sort of the ropes of glass blowing. And so, we got to blow glass bubbles, which was really fun. By the end, they almost felt like [00:03:30] plastic film, but it almost didn't even feel like glass. And then we did like another sort of experiment where he had the thin cylinder of glass, and he lit it up in the middle. One of us grabs the end and just runs to the other side of the room and it looks like fiberglass gets super, super thin.
[00:03:43] And it was just fun seeing him play with it. I mean, it gets really hot, and he was just unfazed. This is his day to day, you know?
[00:03:49] Carol Eugene Park: That sounds really cool. I will put a disclaimer out there, because we're talking about destructive therapy, and I know someone's gonna email us. We are not psychologists. We're not saying a rage [00:04:00] room, destructive therapy, throwing things, breaking things, which is not going to eliminate all the skeletons in your closet. We're just telling you about a cool man doing a cool thing and healing our inner child.
[00:04:12] Jeevan Sangha: Totally. And while we were at Brian's shop, he actually made an ornament like a little icicle right in front of us like so quickly, it was really cool. And on that note, we have a very special gift for our listeners. So, if you kindly leave us a review, we will enter you in a contest to [00:04:30] win a little icicle of your own from Brian.
[00:04:33] Carol Eugene Park: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you do business. So, on that note, let's get into this hot and burning conversation about glassblowing.
[00:04:43] Brian Ditchburn: My name is Brian Ditchburn. I'm scientific glassblower for UBC's chemistry department. I'm the only glassblower on campus. So, it depends on what the needs are. They come to my shop.
[00:04:52] Jeevan Sangha: Can you bring us back to how you originally got into this field? Can you tell us, like, is this, is glassblowing something you've always wanted to pursue [00:05:00] professionally?
[00:05:00] Is it something you found along the way?
[00:05:01] Brian Ditchburn: I started glassblowing when I was 13 with my father, who's a neon and scientific glassblower. So, he started me helping him out with the neon business. At the same time, he was working at the University of Windsor
[00:05:14] so while he was doing neon, he brought us kids in to do it and Its glass and melting it and making it do what you want to do is just, is addictive. It was great until, you know, I was 18 and we butted heads like, uh, you know, teenagers and their parents. Then from there, I joined the army, joined the army [00:05:30] reserves and found out that's not what I want to do for the rest of my life and went and got a degree in glassblowing from New Jersey.
[00:05:36] I've been working in glass shops since then. As far as the trade goes, it's all fun. It's literally the best job on campus. there is no bad day.
[00:05:44] Carol Eugene Park: So, speaking of university settings, is it common for universities to have an in-house glassblower and if so, like what is the benefit of having one, especially at UBC?
[00:05:55] Brian Ditchburn: It used to be more common than it is now. Some of the bigger universities would have multiple glassblowers [00:06:00] working at them. Uh, University of Toronto, for example, used to have a glassblower in the physics department, a glassblower in the chemistry department, and there was a third glass where I'm not quite sure which department it was in.
[00:06:09] UBC used to have two, one in the physics department and one here in chemistry. They shut down the physics department one and kept this one going. The reason it's good is because I can take glassware that's broken and put it back into service way cheaper than buying a new piece of glassware. If they're thinking of something like electrochemical cells and they bring me a drawing, which is my favorite part of my job.
[00:06:29] They'll [00:06:30] bring me a random drawing and I'll try to figure out how to make it and we'll make it for them. And if you went to buy that outside the university setting, that would cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars. I don't know. I don't know how to billing work, but thousands at the very least, because if you have failures in business you need to charge your customers, right?
[00:06:47] Whereas this setting, if it doesn't work great, I learned something. Now I get to do it again to make sure it works. It's just, if they have something, they're dreaming up an idea of how they want to use the chemicals and the [00:07:00] glassware. They just bring the drawing to me, and I try to build it for them.
[00:07:02] Jeevan Sangha: Can you walk us through like an average day at the shop? And, you know, you mentioned kind of creating new things. Repairing things that are broken, uh, lab equipment, glassware, um, but what's the mix? Like, is it mostly new stuff? Is it mostly repairs? Is it like a mix of everything?
[00:07:18] Brian Ditchburn: It's a mix, mostly with repairs being the broader amount of work that I do.
[00:07:23] New profs tend to need newer materials. If they've decided to do a different experiment, I'll help them with the glassware for that. [00:07:30] New profs, for example, need vac lines for when they're doing their chemistry. So, do you guys have any chemistry experience?
[00:07:35] Jeevan Sangha: Literally none.
[00:07:38] Brian Ditchburn: Me neither. I failed chemistry in high school. But what they do is when they're doing an experiment, they do it under a nitrogen under vacuum, right? So, they're doing it in a controlled environment. So, the vac lines I build have two stages, one for the vacuum and one for the nitrogen Those are fun to build. Love making those. So those break a lot.
[00:07:54] and if you're buying them from, say, Chemglass, which is a big company, that's two grand for a new one, and that's one valve broken off. I could put that valve back on again, which costs $45, and off they go, they're back in business.
[00:08:06] Carol Eugene Park: Have the things that you've made, like, changed throughout your career, or have the needs kind of altered, or has it kind of been pretty consistent?
[00:08:15] Brian Ditchburn: Back when I started 25 years ago here at UBC, everything was way bigger, like one to two-to-three-liter flasks and stuff like that. Now everything's down to 50 ml flasks, 25 ml flasks, small level of experimentation [00:08:30] because either the material they're experimenting with is expensive or they've got the system up to run that they know if they do this with this in this environment, they'll get this, right? So, everything's just gotten smaller.
[00:08:41] Carol Eugene Park: Do you know why? Like, besides like the ingredients may be more expensive. Like,
[00:08:46] Brian Ditchburn: I think it's just they've, uh, they've been doing chemistry for so long that they know if they mix the volume of this with the volume of this chemical, they'll get a reaction. They'll know what that reaction is. Pharmaceutical companies who used to have lots of glassware, by the way, [00:09:00] have stopped having, uh, as many glasswares because they have a program that runs the chemicals they're putting together, and they know how it's going to result.
[00:09:07] So, if they're going to do an experiment, they know what the result is, and then the next experiment will add the new chemical in to see what happens. And that's the part they'll test on because they'll know how it reacts, or they think they know how to react. We should find a chemist. I'll find a chemist.
[00:09:21] Jeevan Sangha: So, I'm curious, what are some of the challenges of making scientific glassware and has there ever been a situation where you've been asked to make something and you're like, oh, I just [00:09:30] can't crack it.
[00:09:30] Brian Ditchburn: I never say no. It's, I will keep working at a problem until I solve the problem.
[00:09:35] One of the electrochemical cells for a doctor, Dr. Busato, and he wanted these ultra thin windows at the bottom of it. I mean, every time I put flame to this, the windows just disappeared. They just like melted away. So, I had to figure out how to get these to seal on and not disappear and weather fronts would have an effect on the, on the windows.
[00:09:53] But Dan had so much patience. It took me six, seven months for me to get one cell for this man made. And he [00:10:00] was never, he was always, let's get it done. And every, every time iteration of it, he went through and used it. And we modified it as we go. I've had some things that are so complex that I can't put them together properly or not in the way that the doctors want.
[00:10:15] So I have to ask them if they'll backtrack it a little so that I can get to a product that they can use and successfully put it out the door. Most of them are very, they're okay with this. As long as they know that eventually it's going to get to what they want.
[00:10:27] Carol Eugene Park: I feel like I would go crazy [00:10:30] working on one thing. Do you ever kind of get in that mode where you're like, Oh my God.
[00:10:34] Brian Ditchburn: It's fun. It's fun. You just have to look at it like there is no failure. Every time I melt glass, I learn something Even if I'm doing the same thing over and over again. If I switch my how my hand holds it, if I switch the flame, if I Make the flame sharper or make it lighter or whatever it has an effect on the glass, right?
[00:10:52] So being bored as a glassblower, you have to work at being bored.
[00:10:55] Carol Eugene Park: Well, I love that for you. How much glass does the chemistry department use kind of in a year? I mean, [00:11:00] we touched upon the flasks kind of have like decreased in terms of sizing. So, like, is it Significantly less like or has just the amount been the same.
[00:11:07] Brian Ditchburn: as far as I can see, the amount is pretty much the same.
[00:11:10] They're just using smaller sizes for doing their experiments on. Once they've done the small experiments, they have to upsize it. Right? So, it used to be the experiments on big stuff. Now it's, they're doing experiments on little stuff and then building it up when they're doing it to an industrial scale. So yeah, the volume of glassware, as far as I can tell, is still the same and the students are still breaking glass. Love [00:11:30] the clumsy students.
[00:11:30] Jeevan Sangha: And what's the process like, or like salvaging, repairing broken glass? Like for all the clumsy students out there who, um, maybe kind of shake their head after they drop something. What happens to that glass after?
[00:11:41] Brian Ditchburn: So, if they bring it down to the shop, I have to assess whether it's, first of all, whether it's fixable, whether the parts on it are salvageable. Uh, everything goes into the oven. I anneal everything before I work on it so that it's Grease free.
[00:11:52] It's all chemical free because I have attached to a blow hose to it to keep air pressure into it. So, anything on that, that I heat up is likely to go to my lungs. [00:12:00] So it's pyrolyzed, we call it. And then repair and reattach the parts. Then I have to anneal it to relieve all the stress that I've put into the glass.
[00:12:07] And that's just, it's a, it's a three-day process. Basically, I put it through the oven. I work on it. And I put it back through the oven and I gave it back to the students. I wish everything was that fast, but it's not. But you know, I try to return things in a 10-working day thing just to get a good turnaround. Sometimes I fail at that too. That's the volume of work, right?
[00:12:23] Carol Eugene Park: Just listening to the fact that that, like, being able to repair glassware, like, high school teachers lied to me because the [00:12:30] way that they were like, Oh my goodness, if you drop this one thing, like, your life is over. And now I'm just like, you could fix it? Like, okay.
[00:12:36] So in terms of the unsalvageable glass, um, how did you come up with the idea of using it, uh, in the context of stress relief?
[00:12:44] Brian Ditchburn: You're not going to find a stressed-out glassblower. If I'm making something and it doesn't work, I just make it disappear. Right. And like, I don't know what part I didn't make that.
[00:12:53] Then I get to make the next one. So destructive therapy, I think that's my therapist has called it destructive therapy. [00:13:00] I don't know. I just make it stuff. It's going to be smashed up in the bins and thrown away. And I just thought maybe someone wants to come in having a stressful thing, come break it.
[00:13:08] Like, and I have a whole bunch of volumetric flasks that I can't, make beaker mugs out of them because chemistry was done in these things. If I make something for you to drink out of, for example, there's no chemistry that has ever been done in that flask. So, these flasks are perfectly good. They're just as much fun destroying them as drinking out of them, so we'll destroy them.
[00:13:26] And when I'm walking through the campus or in the department during [00:13:30] exams, during people writing their thesis, you should see the zombies walking around here because they're like stressed right out. And if I see someone and I recognize that they're stressed out, I say, come on in, let's break something. And I'll say that to any of the students who bring stuff here. And if some of them take advantage of it, some don't. But it's just an option.
[00:13:47] Jeevan Sangha: And how do students typically feel after they are able to break some glass? Have they ever mentioned anything about what that process has been like for them, you know, in the midst of a stressful time?
[00:13:58] Brian Ditchburn: Just recently, I had a [00:14:00] young student who was getting ready for his midterms.
[00:14:03] He dropped off his VAC line, which he had broken. So, it was for me, I had to repair this for him. He was stressed out because of the midterm. He was stressed out because of the VAC line. And I said, let's break some glass. And he didn't understand why I was going to break the flask, but he threw one. He said, okay, I can see that.
[00:14:16] So then he threw three or four more and he said, that was fun. I got it. And he left with a smile. It's not rocket science. It's, you're just looking at something and enjoying the experience of breaking something. Especially if you know, if something's valuable or like if it was [00:14:30] complete a whole and you could be reused or whatever, it has value, and you get to destroy it.
[00:14:36] For some reason, which makes human beings happy.
[00:14:39] Carol Eugene Park: We're monsters. Um, so I saw somewhere that the more stressed you are, the more expensive the equipment you can break. Is that true? And if so, why was that?
[00:14:50] Brian Ditchburn: That depends on what I have. Um, so I've got tentacles out all over the place, all over the university.
[00:14:56] Anybody's getting rid of glassware, just talk to me. If you bring it down to me, I don't [00:15:00] care what it looks like. Bring it to the shop. I will use it. I'm a pack rat basically. And so, I've got glassware that is no longer used in any, any research. Um, and if someone's super stressed out and they want to break, break something super expensive, I can arrange that.
[00:15:15] I mean, I've got stuff. Cause I don't throw anything out either until it's broken down to a smallest parts possible. plus, I've had students come in with their VAC lines when they graduated, and they wanted to break their VAC line. That's a two grand piece of glassware, right? So, I, I'm not sure how that worked with their PIs, but you know, I'm not going to stop them because I get to make another one.
[00:15:32] Jeevan Sangha: So, it's a win-win situation is what you're saying. What's the most expensive thing someone's broken?
[00:15:38] Brian Ditchburn: It was a diffusion pump. a diffusion pump is when they're creating vacuum. They have this the system where they're Boiling oil and it flows up and when it comes, down these, channels it creates a vacuum. These things are stupid expensive to make. The one that this student broke was a mercury one that I cleaned up. So, there's no mercury in it, but no one uses mercury anymore [00:16:00] so it's just sitting there looking pretty, um, and he got to break that. So that's probably in the three to four grand area, but no one uses them anymore. Mercury is just something that they're trying to steer as far away from as possible.
[00:16:11] Carol Eugene Park: what, what's the busiest time of year for your shop for students to come and stress relieve by breaking things?
[00:16:17] Brian Ditchburn: I'm more or less just see the students and offer them to come in. Um, if I see them during their exam time, if I don't walk around the department, I don't see them. Some of them come see me or they're coming in with their repairs, like this young student before, [00:16:30] then I'll offer it. And if they take advantage of it, they take advantage of it. They don't, they don't. I I'm fine either way. It's listening to people's problems and helping them break something is easy. You just have to shut your mouth, listen to what someone's saying. Give them glass. Give them the protective glasses and show them where to break stuff. And if they don't want to take advantage of it, that's up to them.
[00:16:50] Its human nature is you enjoy destroying something, especially if something caused you pain or caused you grief. If you want to come and break something, I've got something we can break.
[00:16:58] Carol Eugene Park: You love your job. It [00:17:00] sounds really fun, but I'm sure that there are things such as like frustrations that happen in the day to day, the tedious stuff.
[00:17:08] So have you ever had to break things in your shop because of the stresses within the job?
[00:17:14] Brian Ditchburn: I break things all day,
[00:17:15] Carol Eugene Park: like purposely?
[00:17:17] Brian Ditchburn: It doesn't work, I make it disappear. Does that make sense? If I'm doing something and that's a really ugly seal? Garbage and I'll make it disappear. I also, we call it Cullet buckets, C U L L E T Cullet buckets, which are just all the scrap glass. [00:17:30] You're putting the hot glass in there. I have a big piece of angle iron that I smash all that stuff into small little bits until I get them, I get them into bags and I, when I have to throw it away. Right? Right. So. The option of breaking stuff is, it's never ending.
[00:17:44] so a student brings their vac line and it's broken, and they always say, oh, I'm sorry, this is broken. I'm going, it's fine. I, I, I break more glass than you will in your entire life in a week. And you're also keeping me busy. It's a job. Don't worry about it. And this is an easy fix. I'll look at something that's hard, easy. I say that [00:18:00] I'll get this done for you. So, you get back to your research, right? Try to go as positive a spin as possible.
[00:18:05] Carol Eugene Park: Have you ever needed to repair glassware in your own home? Perhaps clumsiness. And you were like, oh my gosh, I don't want to buy this new glass Tupperware. Is that something that you can also repair?
[00:18:15] Brian Ditchburn: Glass Tupperware is like something like a beaker, like a mug for measuring sort of things.
[00:18:20] Those are pressed glass. There's very little I can do. I can take care of a chip on that, but other than if I put flame on it, the stress Just pops it apart. Pyrex is a name brand. So, Pyrex is a type of [00:18:30] glass, and it's very, it's very resilient to heat and cold. And that's why it's used in chemistry, and it's used in cooking. The stuff that you buy for cooking. Is pressed glass that they put it to shape, then they wash it with a cold wind or air. And that just causes it to have physical strength for what you want to do to it. But it's not true Pyrex, it's just a name brand of Pyrex.
[00:18:51] Jeevan Sangha: So, some of that stuff, some stuff I look at and says, it's not worth saving. Just throw it away or choose a corner. We'll break it. That's awesome. [00:19:00] Honestly, like what I'm really liking about your approach, Brian, is that when I think of breaking glass, I think I'm like, I made a mistake. I knocked something over; I messed something up. And I really love this kind of framing of, so you broke something. I break stuff all day, like whatever, life happens.
[00:19:17] Brian Ditchburn: Glass is sand. Borosilicate, the glass I work with, is sand. They add a boron, they add another couple of chemicals to it. And that's what, Pyrex, or borosilicate glass is made out of, it's sand.
[00:19:29] I [00:19:30] can't buy glass art. I can't. If I look at glass art, it's beautiful, great, can't buy it. Because I look at it and go, that's too expensive for sand. This is literally the best job on campus. And I don't know how anybody could not enjoy doing what I do. They're saying glassblowers are disappearing. But I've talked to several young students who are interested in becoming glassblowers.
[00:19:49] And I know once they try it, they're going to love it. And if they're going to follow through, we're not going to run out of people who want to work with glass because glass is awesome. It's just so much fun to work with.
[00:19:58] Carol Eugene Park: Since you're such an [00:20:00] expert in this field, like do you have people that you kind of mentor or is there a growing community of young people?
[00:20:07] Brian Ditchburn: So, most glassblowers become glassblowers through apprenticeships. Like for example, I started with my dad. Glassblowers tend to know each other because they tend to come in families. A new person can break into that if they have the skills, there's a school in New Jersey they can go to for a two-year program and just get the hands-on experience.
[00:20:24] Breaking in is always going to be difficult because even back when every university [00:20:30] had two or three glassblowers, they were still really tight on whether they were going to teach someone else. I'm a part of the Apprenticeship Council within my union, we're trying to get an apprenticeship going. We'll see what happens.
[00:20:42] Because I mean, I'm 54 now, I have 10 more years I can retire. And if someone wants to start, maybe they should start doing it now.
[00:20:50] Carol Eugene Park: Let the man retire in peace.
[00:20:53] Brian Ditchburn: We tend not to retire either.
[00:20:54] Carol Eugene Park: Really?
[00:20:55] Brian Ditchburn: Yeah. It's so much fun. We keep glass blowing. My dad retired when I think he was [00:21:00] 85? I want to retire, but at the same time I love what I do. So, it's a Catch 22, it's a really good Catch 22, though.
[00:21:08] Jeevan Sangha: I gotta say Brian, you're really selling me on this glassblowing thing.
[00:21:11] Brian Ditchburn: It's a trade, it's a skill. A lot of people fail at becoming a glassblower because ...it's difficult. If you ever meet a glass worker who says, I was a natural from the start, bullshit. Everybody breaks glass. And that's just the way you're learning something, and you have to do it over and over again. If it didn't work, do it again, do it again, do it again until you get it. And you have to have that inner strength [00:21:30] that you can realize that you can make a mistake but keep going.
[00:21:33] Carol Eugene Park: Thank you so much, Brian. This was so fun talking to you.
[00:21:37] Jeevan Sangha: I hope we can all take a little piece of Brian's mindset into our weeks ahead. You know, it's okay if we make a mistake. It's just an opportunity to do something different. You
[00:21:44] Carol Eugene Park: can keep that energy. I won't. But where are you in wanting to take a stab at being a glassblower, Jeevan? Because I know that's now a dream of yours.
[00:21:52] Jeevan Sangha: Hey, our From Here Forward field trip really sparked some curiosity for me, it piqued my interest. I mean, I can see a universe where I [00:22:00] commit myself to the craft. I mean, Brian really curated a vibe in there. He had the classical music going. He was in his element.
[00:22:07] I was like, so is this the music of choice? And he was like, it can be anything from classical to like death metal. I run a range. It's like, it just depends on the day. And I thought that was really cool. I mean; after visiting a shop like that, how can you not think about another future?
[00:22:21] Carol Eugene Park: Yeah, I think you have a, a bright future in blowing glass, Jeevan. Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or [00:22:30] following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you'd like a chance to win an icicle ornament from UBC's resident glassblower, you better drop us a review. It doesn't have to be nice. Just drop us one. You can find me on Twitter at Carol Eugene Park
[00:22:45] Jeevan Sangha: And me at Jeevan K Senga. From here forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.