How Grief Affects the Body: Physical Symptoms, the 6 Stages of Grief, and Finding Meaning After Loss with David Kessler

Can grief cause physical symptoms? Learn how loss may affect cortisol, inflammation, hormone balance, heart health, sleep, energy, and the nervous system. Grief is not only an emotional experience. It can affect the brain and body, yet many people feel pressured to stay strong, move on, or process their loss alone. In this episode, grief expert David Kessler explains what grief does to us physically and emotionally, why grief must be witnessed, and how meaningful healing can begin.

We explore the five stages of grief, why they are not linear, and the misconceptions surrounding denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. David also shares how losing his 21-year-old son led him to identify meaning as the sixth stage of grief and explains why meaning is not found in the tragedy itself, but in what we choose to do afterward.

David and Dr. Taz discuss the physical symptoms of grief, broken heart syndrome, post-traumatic growth, isolation, grief in men, and what to say when someone you love is grieving. They also explain why grief can result from divorce, betrayal, job loss, illness, lost identity, or the loss of the future you expected, not only the death of a loved one.

This conversation is for educational purposes and should not replace individualized medical or mental health care. Chest pain and other concerning physical symptoms should always be evaluated by a qualified healthcare professional.

Subscribe for weekly conversations about physical, emotional, and spiritual health, and comment below: What do you wish more people understood about grief?

About David Kessler:
David Kessler is one of the world’s leading experts on grief and loss. He co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, including On Grief and Grieving, and later introduced meaning as the sixth stage of grief in his bestselling book Finding Meaning.

His first book, The Needs of the Dying, received praise from Mother Teresa. David has also served as an LAPD specialist reserve for traumatic events and with the Red Cross disaster services team. He is the founder of Grief.com, which provides resources, support groups, and training for people experiencing grief and the professionals who support them.

Connect with David Kessler:
https://grief.com/
https://www.instagram.com/iamdavidkessler/
https://www.facebook.com/IamDavidKessler/
https://www.tiktok.com/@iamdavidkessler

About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician, bestselling author, and founder of hol+, a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about

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Produced by https://ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr. Taz Bhatia MD

Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.

Producer

Pat Gostek

Founder of ClipGrowth.com - End-to-End YouTube, Podcast & Clips Management (you just record).

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[00:00:00] David Kessler: Just like you said, study after study is showing us in trauma [00:00:05] and in grief, we need community.
[00:00:07] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:00:07] David Kessler: We need others. We've all been taught the [00:00:10] TV version of dying. Grief is messy. Grief is organic. We [00:00:15] don't know what to say.
[00:00:17] Dr. Taz: Grief comes in lots of different forms. It can come [00:00:20] in the form of a divorce- Yes ... the loss of a child, loss of a loved one.
[00:00:24] Dr. Taz: It can [00:00:25] come in the form of a loss of a job. When we don't do this work, regardless of what it [00:00:30] is or the experience has been, it shows up in your lab work.
[00:00:33] David Kessler: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:00:34] Dr. Taz: There's [00:00:35] inflammation, there is high cortisol- Absolutely ... there's hormone disruption. Over [00:00:40] time-
[00:00:40] David Kessler: Yes ...
[00:00:40] Dr. Taz: that's a diagnosis Stress is a common [00:00:45] factor that affects everyone in today's fast-paced world, leading to various issues.
[00:00:49] Dr. Taz: What if the answer [00:00:50] to a better stress response is actually in a key nutrient? I'm talking about magnesium. [00:00:55] Actually, I'm specifically talking about Magnesium Breakthrough by [00:01:00] BiOptimizers. This one-of-a-kind product is designed to reverse low levels of magnesium, which could be [00:01:05] causing a multitude of other health problems.
[00:01:07] Dr. Taz: What sets Magnesium Breakthrough apart is its [00:01:10] ability to support healthy levels of stress hormones like cortisol, a better balanced stress [00:01:15] response in your nervous and hormonal systems, and a healthy production of GABA, the relaxing [00:01:20] neurotransmitter leading to a more peaceful and better flow state.
[00:01:22] Dr. Taz: This means that this supplement [00:01:25] acts like a brake on your body's nervous system, helping to calm and soothe, promoting a better [00:01:30] quality of life. But you have to get the right kinds of magnesium. Truth is, most [00:01:35] magnesium supplements you'll find in health stores use only the two cheapest synthetic [00:01:40] forms, and since they're not full spectrum, they won't help your magnesium deficiency or do much to [00:01:45] support your health.
[00:01:45] Dr. Taz: There are actually seven key forms of magnesium, and you must get all of them if you [00:01:50] wanna experience its calming stress balancing effects. That's why I only recommend [00:01:55] Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers. It's the only organic full spectrum magnesium [00:02:00] supplement that includes seven unique forms of magnesium for stress resilience and better sleep all in [00:02:05] one bottle.
[00:02:05] Dr. Taz: For an exclusive offer, go to bioptimizers.com/holplus [00:02:10] and use the promo code holPLUS during checkout to save 10%. That's H-O-L-E-P-L-U-S. [00:02:15] And if you subscribe, not only will you get amazing discounts and free gifts, you [00:02:20] will make sure your monthly supply is guaranteed. As a young physician, I think one of the [00:02:25] hardest things I ever dealt with was loss.
[00:02:27] Dr. Taz: Watching a patient die, watching family members lose loved [00:02:30] ones, coming from the emergency room or from any of the different scenarios in my different [00:02:35] residency rotations, this really was one that I struggled with. And somewhere along that journey, I picked [00:02:40] up a book by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who talked about death and dying, the five stages [00:02:45] of grief, and the profound impact they have on the human experience.
[00:02:48] Dr. Taz: My next guest [00:02:50] has worked with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and all her groundbreaking work on the five [00:02:55] stages of grief, and I can't wait to get his perspective on what grief, loss, [00:03:00] and trauma do to the human spirit and at the end of the day, do to our human [00:03:05] experience. David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss.
[00:03:09] Dr. Taz: His [00:03:10] experience with thousands of people on the edge of life and death has taught him the secrets to living a [00:03:15] happy and fulfilled life even after life's tragedies. He's the author of six [00:03:20] books, including the new bestselling book, Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief. He [00:03:25] co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, including On Grief and Grieving, and [00:03:30] updated her five stages of grief.
[00:03:32] Dr. Taz: His first book, The Needs of the Dying, received [00:03:35] praise from Saint Mother Teresa. David's volunteer work includes being an LAPD specialist [00:03:40] reserve for traumatic events, as well as having served on Red Cross's disaster services [00:03:45] team. He has been trained for bio-terrorist events as well as epidemics and pandemics.
[00:03:49] Dr. Taz: He's the [00:03:50] founder of grief.com which has over five million visits yearly from [00:03:55] 167 countries. Please join me in welcoming David Kessler to hol [00:04:00] Plus. All right, David, welcome to the show.
[00:04:02] David Kessler: So glad to be here with you.
[00:04:03] Dr. Taz: Uh, this is a full circle [00:04:05] moment for me. When I was in med school and residency I stumbled upon Elisabeth [00:04:10] Kubler-Ross's work on death and dying.
[00:04:12] Dr. Taz: I was really touched and impacted by [00:04:15] some of the f- my first experience with losing a patient and I found you [00:04:20] that way too. So to have you here on the show is such an honor and such a privilege and [00:04:25] I couldn't be more excited, so welcome.
[00:04:26] David Kessler: Well, thank you so much and I'm so curious. You [00:04:30] know, I think about her in the '60s-
[00:04:34] Dr. Taz: [00:04:35] Right
[00:04:35] David Kessler: being a female physician and back [00:04:40] then trying to be out of the box. I mean, I [00:04:45] remember, you know, hearing the stories of how she would have [00:04:50] the audacity to bring patients [00:04:55] to the physician education And it was like, [00:05:00] "No."
[00:05:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah. "
[00:05:00] David Kessler: No, we learn from each other. We don't have patients tell us-" We don't learn from our
[00:05:04] Dr. Taz: [00:05:05] patient.
[00:05:05] David Kessler: Yeah. It was like, "Wait. No, no. We have patient education [00:05:10] classes. Why would we want to learn from patients?"
[00:05:13] Dr. Taz: All
[00:05:13] David Kessler: it takes is a woman. And she was [00:05:15] like... Th- uh, yeah. I- I'm just kidding ... yeah, and, you know, there's probably some truth to that. Yeah. And it was this [00:05:20] idea of we have to learn from people- From the patient
[00:05:23] David Kessler: who are dying- Yeah ... and people who are [00:05:25] in grief. They are our teachers.
[00:05:27] Dr. Taz: Well, one of the reasons I really wanted you on the [00:05:30] show, we spend a lot of time on the show talking about the spirit, the human spirit, and the human [00:05:35] experience, and how that plays just as an important role into our health and our [00:05:40] vitality, our medicine, our data, and all those things, and I feel like that gets really lost, [00:05:45] right?
[00:05:45] Dr. Taz: It gets really lost in a conversation around how somebody's doing. And I think [00:05:50] grief, in Chinese medicine, as you probably already know, grief lives in the lungs, [00:05:55] right? And it's very much associated with the lung meridian, and Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine would spend a [00:06:00] lot of time working with people who are in a grief state to help them release grief.[00:06:05]
[00:06:05] Dr. Taz: I am so curious on how you entered this space. This is your [00:06:10] space. You have worked for so long on grief and really creating a [00:06:15] methodology for those of us dealing with people who are losing loved ones, whether it's in the patient room or whether it's in our [00:06:20] families. You know, how did you enter this to begin with?
[00:06:23] David Kessler: I had [00:06:25] a childhood that was full of trauma and loss, from [00:06:30] everything, losing our home when I was nine. [00:06:35] Um, my father was an addict. My mother... [00:06:40] My father had an addiction. My mother today m- probably would, could be considered [00:06:45] bipolar.
[00:06:45] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:06:46] David Kessler: And it was chaotic and [00:06:50] unstable, and then I was sexually abused. I mean- Oof
[00:06:52] David Kessler: so many losses.
[00:06:53] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:06:55]
[00:06:55] David Kessler: And then when I was 13, my mother was very ill, had to go to a [00:07:00] hospital hours away for this new procedure that was only in a few [00:07:05] hospitals called dialysis.
[00:07:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. That was new.
[00:07:08] David Kessler: It was new. Wow. [00:07:10] And the ethics, the early ethics committee would decide who would [00:07:15] get it, and she was able to get one treatment-
[00:07:19] Dr. Taz: [00:07:20] Mm
[00:07:20] David Kessler: which we know now- Right ... would, like, you know, that I think they just in [00:07:25] whatever their eyes at that time was too far gone, which doesn't [00:07:30] make any medical sense, but it is what it is. Right. And that was that reality, and it [00:07:35] was also a time in medicine where- The [00:07:40] ICU, you could visit five minutes every two [00:07:45] hours because families were seen as an interruption-
[00:07:49] Dr. Taz: Mm
[00:07:49] David Kessler: of the [00:07:50] healing process. And I was 13. The rule is you had to be [00:07:55] 14. So
[00:07:55] Dr. Taz: you couldn't see your mom. I
[00:07:56] David Kessler: couldn't see my mom. Oh. There were a few nurses [00:08:00] who snuck me in, but most of them were, you know, rule-abiding [00:08:05] nurses. And we were at a hotel across the street, [00:08:10] and all of a sudden one day in the lobby of that hotel, I spent all my time in the [00:08:15] lobbies- Mm
[00:08:15] David Kessler: the hospital lobby, the hotel lobby, someone started yelling, "Fire." [00:08:20] We all ran out. Up on the 18th floor, flames started pouring [00:08:25] out of a building, out of the hotel building. Fire trucks pulled up. I mean, [00:08:30] it was kind of exciting for me. I was bored, you know?
[00:08:33] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:08:33] David Kessler: Right. And fire trucks [00:08:35] pull up and shooting begins.
[00:08:37] Dr. Taz: What?
[00:08:37] David Kessler: And they realize this is not [00:08:40] just a fire, they had an active shooter. Oh. It went- What year
[00:08:43] Dr. Taz: is this?
[00:08:44] David Kessler: This was [00:08:45] 1973.
[00:08:46] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:08:46] David Kessler: It went on for hours. It's now [00:08:50] considered one of the first mass shootings in the US.
[00:08:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. And you're there
[00:08:54] David Kessler: witnessing this. I'm [00:08:55] there witnessing police being killed, hotel guests, [00:09:00] my father desperately trying to get us over to the hospital, finally get [00:09:05] us back to the safety of the hospital.
[00:09:07] David Kessler: In a couple of days, my mother dies. [00:09:10] No support. The [00:09:15] only thing a fellow patient's wife said to me in a stairwell, [00:09:20] out of her kindness, was, "Stay strong."
[00:09:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:09:24] David Kessler: [00:09:25] Which I think for men and most people gets interpreted as take care of everyone else-
[00:09:29] Dr. Taz: [00:09:30] Right ...
[00:09:30] David Kessler: and put your feelings aside. And
[00:09:31] Dr. Taz: don't express your emotions.
[00:09:33] David Kessler: Oh, no. Yeah. Right. I mean, there was [00:09:35] no sense of that.
[00:09:36] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:09:36] David Kessler: Yeah. And there was just no one there. [00:09:40] I tried to talk to my father about grief. He just shut it down. Shut down. Yeah. [00:09:45] And I went into this going, [00:09:50] "Damaged. Damaged, broken, this is life."
[00:09:53] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:09:54] David Kessler: Dropped out [00:09:55] of high school, ninth grade. Thought that's it, and I was just [00:10:00] lost for a few years.
[00:10:01] David Kessler: My father didn't know how to be a parent. I was [00:10:05] so lost, and then someone said to me, a neighbor... I mean, thank goodness for the [00:10:10] strangers that come into our life. A neighbor said to me, "You know, you can go [00:10:15] do this GED thing where you go challenge to get your high school diploma- Mm-hmm ... 'cause you're [00:10:20] smart."
[00:10:20] David Kessler: And I'm like, "Really? It's not over? I thought I screwed up the school thing." Right,
[00:10:24] Dr. Taz: right. [00:10:25]
[00:10:25] David Kessler: Challenged it, then challenged my high school diploma and actually got it. Went to [00:10:30] community college, and they said, "There's two easy classes, human [00:10:35] sexuality, but it's full, and death and dying, but people don't often wanna take that."
[00:10:39] Dr. Taz: [00:10:40] Right.
[00:10:40] David Kessler: I said, "I'll take that." And I get in there, and I learn about [00:10:45] this woman, Elisabeth Kubler-Ross.
[00:10:47] Dr. Taz: Kubler-Ross.
[00:10:48] David Kessler: And
[00:10:48] Dr. Taz: her stages. For those of you... So [00:10:50] some people watching and listening may not even know who she is, which is hard to believe, right? But [00:10:55] she was, I would call her a pioneer when it comes to- A
[00:10:57] David Kessler: pioneer
[00:10:58] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:10:58] David Kessler: We have [00:11:00] hospice in this country because of her and really pushing it forward [00:11:05] and helping to get it paid by Medicare. Mm-hmm. While working with so many other [00:11:10] people back then. She... Here's what was fascinating about her. [00:11:15] She didn't invent something. She observed something in nature. Mm-hmm. She said, "I've [00:11:20] been watching people who are dying, and it seems like they have [00:11:25] these experiences."
[00:11:27] David Kessler: No different than going, "I've been watching the [00:11:30] sun. It seems to come up in the east and set in the west." [00:11:35] And she saw people were going through these experience of, "I can't believe this is [00:11:40] happening," denial. "I'm angry this is happening," anger [00:11:45] Deal making. If I, if I [00:11:50] volunteer more, if I do this, if I give to charity, might I get more time?
[00:11:54] David Kessler: And the people [00:11:55] in grief are also doing that around them.
[00:11:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:11:58] David Kessler: And then [00:12:00] back in her day, it was sadness and depression were considered the same. People are [00:12:05] sad, and then we have to, at some point, [00:12:10] begin to dance with acceptance.
[00:12:13] Dr. Taz: These are the five stages of grief as-
[00:12:14] David Kessler: [00:12:15] Denial- ... as we know them today ... anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
[00:12:18] David Kessler: And she would have told [00:12:20] you back then, and I still say it, we wrote a book [00:12:25] adapting her stages-
[00:12:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:12:26] David Kessler: of dying for stages of grief. One of the criticisms you'll hear [00:12:30] is, "Well, they weren't adapted for grief." And I'm like, "No, whole book." And on page [00:12:35] one we made sure we said they're not linear. There's no [00:12:40] one right way to do grief.
[00:12:40] David Kessler: It's not a
[00:12:41] Dr. Taz: destination,
[00:12:41] David Kessler: right? It's not a destination. Yeah. It's not as the media has [00:12:45] tried to turn it into five easy steps for healing your grief. Right. It's not that.
[00:12:49] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:12:49] David Kessler: [00:12:50] Grief is messy. Grief is organic. You know, [00:12:55] grief turns our world upside down. What
[00:12:56] Dr. Taz: does grief do to us? [00:13:00] Beyond what we experience, what, what is it doing to us?
[00:13:03] Dr. Taz: I
[00:13:03] David Kessler: think it [00:13:05] changes us. It changes our brain. It changes our body. You [00:13:10] know, it's, it's... I think we forget it's one of the [00:13:15] hugest things we will go through in this lifetime, and [00:13:20] there's no information on how to do it. We don't teach it. [00:13:25] We teach our children everything except loss.
[00:13:29] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:13:29] David Kessler: [00:13:30] And what's also amazing about her stages to these days, and Elisabeth is the first [00:13:35] person to say, "Oh my gosh," when people would go...
[00:13:38] David Kessler: Like, I would be with her, [00:13:40] and a clinician would come in and say, "I've got a case." And they would tell us the case, and [00:13:45] we're like 20 minutes in going, "All right. We can't wait for the question."
[00:13:48] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:13:49] David Kessler: And then they [00:13:50] would say, "Okay, Elisabeth, what stage are they in?" And Elisabeth would go, [00:13:55] "Forget the stages.
[00:13:56] David Kessler: Meet them where they are." They are.
[00:13:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:13:59] David Kessler: You [00:14:00] know? And it's just, it's about not... I think about her, and it was really [00:14:05] hard in her lifetime. Imagine, I think, 26 books, thousands of [00:14:10] lectures- Yeah ... and people wanted to reduce her to five words.
[00:14:14] Dr. Taz: Five stages. [00:14:15] What would she say if she was here today?
[00:14:18] David Kessler: She would be [00:14:20] so thrilled we're talking more about grief, and she would [00:14:25] be disappointed that we're not further along.
[00:14:28] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:14:30] You know, grief, I've sat with so many patients, [00:14:35] family members, watched my husband struggle with the loss of his mother. It looks [00:14:40] really different on different people.
[00:14:42] David Kessler: Yes.
[00:14:43] Dr. Taz: If you're sitting on the outside [00:14:45] of someone who's experiencing grief, what can you do? [00:14:50] How do you reach them?
[00:14:51] David Kessler: I think the biggest thing to learn and to [00:14:55] understand, and I
[00:14:56] David Kessler: This is something when I, in our program is when we teach therapists and coaches [00:15:00] and healthcare professionals, there is no fixing. [00:15:05]
[00:15:05] Dr. Taz: Mm, that's a big one.
[00:15:06] David Kessler: There, there is no three interventions [00:15:10] to do this. It is not about platitudes, it is [00:15:15] about your presence. And my website is [00:15:20] grief.com- Mm-hmm ... and I see the back end of it.
[00:15:24] David Kessler: The page [00:15:25] that gets most visited is the best and worst things to say to people in grief.
[00:15:29] Dr. Taz: [00:15:30] Mm.
[00:15:30] David Kessler: We don't know what to say. Like, 3:00 AM is [00:15:35] where all these people are on it. We don't know what to say, [00:15:40] and we think there's this myth, and clinicians have it, and everyone [00:15:45] has it-
[00:15:45] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:15:45] David Kessler: gotta figure out the right words.
[00:15:47] David Kessler: Right. And we don't understand it's about going [00:15:50] I don't have the right words. I don't even know what to say, [00:15:55] and I love you, and I'm here with you. Yeah. And I'm going to be next to you on [00:16:00] this path. I can't go on the path with you, but I'm right here next to you. [00:16:05]
[00:16:05] Dr. Taz: Well, you've spent a lot of time developing tools for the clinician, for [00:16:10] the human who's going through this process.
[00:16:11] Dr. Taz: Right. Let's go back to how this [00:16:15] evolved in terms of your relationship with Elizabeth, what you guys were able to create [00:16:20] together, and I believe even Mother Teresa recognized you at some point. Oh, my gosh. So tell, [00:16:25] fill in the story a
[00:16:28] David Kessler: little bit for us. Let me tell you, I have, I have a career
[00:16:29] Dr. Taz: because of [00:16:30] these two women. Mm. I
[00:16:31] David Kessler: mean, there's a lot of people, I'm sure you know them, plenty of [00:16:35] people send us books. They've written wonderful books, and they can't sort [00:16:40] of get them on the map, and there's no way to create- Right ... lightning on purpose.
[00:16:44] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:16:45]
[00:16:45] David Kessler: And here were these two women, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and [00:16:50] Mother Teresa, who really helped put me on the map. So I [00:16:55] had, uh, gone to Calcutta to go to who, her, her home for the dying. Which
[00:16:58] Dr. Taz: is where my mom [00:17:00] grew up. Yes. I remember she was sharing that with you. Yes.
[00:17:01] David Kessler: Yeah. And I think she was [00:17:05] in an area there with Mother Teresa at a certain point.
[00:17:07] Dr. Taz: She was, and she went to, you know, uh, in India at the [00:17:10] time, the British convent schools were where the equivalent of our private schools today, and [00:17:15] the convent that she was at in Calcutta is actually where Mother Teresa was in residence. Wow. So [00:17:20] she got to witness Mother Teresa- Yeah ... ministering, you know, to all types of people, and, uh, [00:17:25] definitely got to meet her and all that other stuff, which is a little surreal to me, right?
[00:17:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. But, um, [00:17:30] she took us back to that convent and, and kinda showed us, like, where all of that took place, [00:17:35] but you had a much- I, yeah ... deeper relationship with
[00:17:37] David Kessler: her. I, um, I [00:17:40] was at her home, and you could no longer see her 'cause she was ill. I would see her in [00:17:45] Mass.
[00:17:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:45] David Kessler: I went to Mass, and in her home, it was [00:17:50] 40 people who were dying.
[00:17:53] David Kessler: I saw people neatly in a [00:17:55] room dying.
[00:17:55] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:17:56] David Kessler: I wasn't used to 40 people dying at once, and I'll tell you, I [00:18:00] said to the sister there, I said, "What are people..." 'Cause I was there getting ready to [00:18:05] help. I said, "What are people dying of?" And she goes, "We don't know. We don't care. We don't have time to ask. Are [00:18:10] you here to help or not?"
[00:18:12] David Kessler: I'm like, "I'm here to help." "Okay." [00:18:15] And there was, I gotta tell you, there was nothing I could [00:18:20] do. There wasn't even a language between us.
[00:18:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:18:24] David Kessler: I could [00:18:25] just be.
[00:18:26] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:18:26] David Kessler: One human being with another human [00:18:30] being, no words at the end of life, just your presence. [00:18:35] I mean-
[00:18:35] Dr. Taz: So what did you, so
[00:18:36] David Kessler: you're just
[00:18:36] Dr. Taz: there? It taught me everything.
[00:18:37] Dr. Taz: You're just-
[00:18:37] David Kessler: You're there. Yeah. I mean, the most you could [00:18:40] do is if someone needed a shower, I, like, there were no [00:18:45] Hoyer lifts or anything. Literally, I would pick them up. You would go in the shower with them. They had a [00:18:50] shower. You had a shower. You'd come out. It was so hot there. It was a self-drying system.
[00:18:54] David Kessler: [00:18:55] Right, right, right. And, you know, it was just being. It was being. I mean, they [00:19:00] had, you know, Tylenol at the time for pain. Mm-hmm. But it was being with [00:19:05] one another, and just your eyes knowing you're not [00:19:10] alone. I mean, I think if anything, I learned to s- Gosh, it's gonna get me.
[00:19:14] Dr. Taz: [00:19:15] Mm.
[00:19:17] David Kessler: I learned to speak with the [00:19:20] kindness of our eyes, just with the kindness of our eyes
[00:19:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.[00:19:25]
[00:19:25] Dr. Taz: And what is, and how did Mother Teresa, is that how you, did you-
[00:19:29] David Kessler: [00:19:30] So then one day, I'm just there at her convent
[00:19:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:19:33] David Kessler: and one of the sisters says, [00:19:35] "Oh, Mother heard about you're doing a book and all that and wants to talk to you. When's convenient?" And I'm [00:19:40] like, "I don't know, whenever she wants." And they're like- And this
[00:19:42] Dr. Taz: is your first book?
[00:19:43] David Kessler: Yes. Okay. My first book- Gotcha. Okay ... The Needs of [00:19:45] the Dying. Okay. And that's why I was there.
[00:19:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:46] David Kessler: And so, uh, they brought me, [00:19:50] uh, to her, and I mean, like this tall.
[00:19:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:19:53] David Kessler: This tall. Not
[00:19:54] Dr. Taz: tall. [00:19:55] Not tall at all.
[00:19:55] David Kessler: This tall.
[00:19:55] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:19:56] David Kessler: And we sat down and we talked [00:20:00] and I said, "We have so many resources in my country for the dying.[00:20:05]
[00:20:05] David Kessler: You have so few here. How do you do it?"
[00:20:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:09] David Kessler: And she [00:20:10] looked at me almost like, "Silly boy." And she said, 'cause I was 30 [00:20:15] at the time, she goes, "The dying need tender loving care."
[00:20:19] Dr. Taz: [00:20:20] Mm. "
[00:20:20] David Kessler: Nothing else. The dying need tender..." And how [00:20:25] much technology do we throw at the dying?
[00:20:27] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:20:28] David Kessler: And miss the tender [00:20:30] loving care, even with those in grief.
[00:20:32] David Kessler: And so anyway, [00:20:35] from there, um, you know, I had that incredible experience of spending time with [00:20:40] her and, um- Then [00:20:45] when the book was coming out, the publisher and, uh, [00:20:50] my agent said, "Let's send it to her. See if she'll do a blurb." And I'm like, [00:20:55] "Mother Teresa doesn't blurb." She doesn't blurb. And so [00:21:00] I reluctantly did that.
[00:21:02] David Kessler: I had seen her on TV saying she loves [00:21:05] reading new books, so I sent her the book and a thank you note-
[00:21:08] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:21:08] David Kessler: and a picture to remind, [00:21:10] you know, her of who I was. And I was done, and of course I was never gonna hear [00:21:15] from them.
[00:21:15] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:21:15] David Kessler: And then one day, the sister calls up and says, you know, [00:21:20] "Mother would like to say something about your book."
[00:21:22] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:21:23] David Kessler: And I'm like, "What?" And [00:21:25] so just, and she doesn't blurb, she praises.
[00:21:27] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:21:28] David Kessler: And I w- I am in [00:21:30] gratitude to this day.
[00:21:31] Dr. Taz: What did she say?
[00:21:32] David Kessler: She just talked about like that [00:21:35] this is really, um, information that will help people, [00:21:40] and how tender it was and that, you know, the knowledge would help. And it was so [00:21:45] sweet.
[00:21:46] David Kessler: What did- And it was really about-
[00:21:47] Dr. Taz: What did that first book do? What did it do? [00:21:50] What were you trying to say?
[00:21:51] David Kessler: I was trying to teach people about end [00:21:55] of life.
[00:21:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:56] David Kessler: Everything I wish had be done, had been done in my childhood.
[00:21:59] Dr. Taz: [00:22:00] Mm.
[00:22:00] David Kessler: And it was one third medical-
[00:22:02] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:22:03] David Kessler: one third [00:22:05] psychological, one third spiritual.
[00:22:07] David Kessler: I wanted it to sort of blend those together. [00:22:10] Science and
[00:22:10] Dr. Taz: spirit.
[00:22:11] David Kessler: Science and spirit.
[00:22:12] Dr. Taz: I love it.
[00:22:13] David Kessler: And just about, you know, [00:22:15] everything from dealing with advanced directives to f- visiting, to being present, [00:22:20] to talking with the dying, to learning. And I'll tell you, Kubler Ross was funny. I, [00:22:25] when I first met her, she was like, "I'm retired, I'm done."
[00:22:28] David Kessler: She had had her stroke. [00:22:30] And I said, "I, I n- need nothing. I..." You know? And we became good [00:22:35] friends.
[00:22:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:36] David Kessler: And then she couldn't keep her hands off [00:22:40] that book. Mm. She's like, "Well, what did you say about this? Did you hit- ... the spiritual quadrant?" So [00:22:45] then she was in it, so she touched that book and- I love it ... praised it.
[00:22:49] David Kessler: So then by the time [00:22:50] it came out, between Mother Teresa and her kind words, oh my gosh, [00:22:55] it just-
[00:22:55] Dr. Taz: It took off ...
[00:22:56] David Kessler: it hit the world in a way that I- Was [00:23:00] more than
[00:23:00] Dr. Taz: I
[00:23:00] David Kessler: deserved-
[00:23:01] Dr. Taz: The next diet ... you know, at that time Yeah. And it's something we need. I mean, even today as we're sitting here, we're hearing [00:23:05] debates, right, on assisted suicide.
[00:23:06] Dr. Taz: Right. We're hear- We've just gone through the pandemic, [00:23:10] right? Right. There's been an unprecedented amount of loss, it feels like, that we've experienced [00:23:15] as a planet, you know- Mm-hmm ... for sure. So I think your work, you know, even going back to that [00:23:20] first book and to her work, couldn't be more timely, you know- Right
[00:23:23] Dr. Taz: so to speak. But [00:23:25] if I had to pin you down and ask you what [00:23:30] is the science of dying? What are, like, some of the, the things that are universal that you've [00:23:35] noticed over and over again? Yeah. And then I'm gonna do the same thing- Yeah ... and, and pin you down and ask [00:23:40] about that spiritual quadrant, and what is it that we need to understand about the human spirit?
[00:23:44] Dr. Taz: But let's start with the [00:23:45] science.
[00:23:45] David Kessler: Yeah. You know, the first thing I'd wanna say is that we live in [00:23:50] a world where we've all been taught the TV version of dying. [00:23:55]
[00:23:55] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:56] David Kessler: And people all the time, as I [00:24:00] work with them in grief, saying, "You don't know what a horrible death. What w- it [00:24:05] was just, it was horrible. No human being should have to go through it."
[00:24:08] David Kessler: And I'll go, "Tell me [00:24:10] what happened." And I think I'm going to hear something out of the [00:24:15] ordinary, and I'm like, "Oh, no, that's a normal breathing pattern. Oh, yeah, that happens." [00:24:20] But we expect the people to die by going, [00:24:25] "Thank you for being here. I love you." TV. [00:24:30] And instead, the body winds down. [00:24:35] It's a, it's like a, a, a factory [00:24:40] slowly closing areas down, and it's noisy, and it's things [00:24:45] we often haven't seen, and we don't understand what to expect.
[00:24:49] David Kessler: And [00:24:50] I put a chapter in that first book, "The Needs of the Dying," that said, "This is what [00:24:55] dying is going to look like." And the publisher even wanted me to say, [00:25:00] "Skip it if you must-
[00:25:01] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:25:01] David Kessler: but I think it's important you know." Mm. And people tell [00:25:05] me now when they realize, "Oh, those are the breathing patterns. [00:25:10] Oh, that's Cheyne-Stokes brea-" I mean, all these things that we just don't know to [00:25:15] expect.
[00:25:15] David Kessler: People who have had animals have sort of seen it- Right ... and they don't realize we're gonna [00:25:20] die that same way. And here's the thing. The other person that [00:25:25] was a dear friend of mine, um, was Louise Hay.
[00:25:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[00:25:29] David Kessler: [00:25:30] And Louise said once, "If you're [00:25:35] dying, you want David Kessler around."
[00:25:36] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:25:37] David Kessler: And once again, I was probably in my 30s, [00:25:40] and I was hurt by the comment.
[00:25:42] Dr. Taz: Why?
[00:25:43] David Kessler: And I was like... 'Cause I wanted [00:25:45] to be the guy that someone said, "If you're having a party- Right. ... you know who you gotta have? You [00:25:50] wanna have David Kessler there." Right. The death guy. That's the guy. I mean, he's- Invited the death guy ... like, no one's [00:25:55] more fun than David. Right. That's who I wanted to be.
[00:25:56] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:25:57] David Kessler: But after I got past the ego part [00:26:00] of that comment, I thought, "What is it?" 'Cause it's not the first time I heard it, [00:26:05] and here's what it is. When I walk into a room and someone's dying, [00:26:10] I'm one of the few people that walks in like nothing's going wrong.
[00:26:14] Dr. Taz: [00:26:15] Mm.
[00:26:16] David Kessler: That, like, this is, this is the, [00:26:20] this is the winding down of a body.
[00:26:23] Dr. Taz: And it's normal
[00:26:24] David Kessler: and natural. And it's [00:26:25] normal, and it's natural. And here's the thing. People go, "But you don't understand how it [00:26:30] looked and all that." And I'll say to them, "The body has to become [00:26:35] uninhabitable, or we would never leave."
[00:26:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:26:38] David Kessler: If I could stay [00:26:40] young and great and fine and healthy, well, I would never die.
[00:26:43] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:26:44] David Kessler: The [00:26:45] body, our spirit has to go, "Yes, we're done. [00:26:50] We're done here."
[00:26:50] Dr. Taz: So what's happening to the spirit? Not of, of the person in [00:26:55] the situation, and then even to the people around them.
[00:26:57] David Kessler: Well, first of all, I love that idea of [00:27:00] the spirit and the body because people will say to me, "Oh, you don't understand. They were [00:27:05] disfigured.
[00:27:05] David Kessler: There's cancer. Da-da-da. I don't know. I can't look at them." I'll go, "Look into their [00:27:10] eyes."
[00:27:10] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:10] David Kessler: The eyes never change. No matter [00:27:15] how disfigured the body's getting, our eyes just, just see right into [00:27:20] our
[00:27:20] Dr. Taz: soul.
[00:27:21] David Kessler: Window of the soul. Window of the soul. Mm-hmm. And so I talk about seeing the eyes, and [00:27:25] then it's also fascinating how they intersect when people are [00:27:30] dying.
[00:27:31] David Kessler: And it was in the movie Moonstruck. They did it beautifully. People, someone's [00:27:35] dying, and all of a sudden- They wake up [00:27:40] and there's a burst of energy, and I talk about it as the rally before death.
[00:27:44] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:44] David Kessler: [00:27:45] And we often have this one last look by the [00:27:50] spirit of coming forth and being present. And I used to have a tough time, [00:27:55] 'cause people go, "They're doing great.
[00:27:56] David Kessler: Ah, thank goodness they're not dying." And I was like, how do I [00:28:00] say no? It's just- Mm ... I've learned to say, "Oh, [00:28:05] you've been given the gift of a little more time here. Maybe a day, [00:28:10] maybe 24 hours." We hear
[00:28:11] Dr. Taz: that all the time. They do rally. They
[00:28:13] David Kessler: rally.
[00:28:13] Dr. Taz: Yep. They have OT. And they- "They were having [00:28:15] a great day," and- Yeah,
[00:28:16] David Kessler: I mean, in
[00:28:16] Dr. Taz: Moonstruck- Yeah, yeah
[00:28:17] Dr. Taz: she got up and she started cooking.
[00:28:18] David Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and you've heard [00:28:20] stories of that. Yeah. And it's this rally that happens. And then the other [00:28:25] fascinating thing is, and this became one of my other [00:28:30] books, is that all of a sudden In the distance, in the [00:28:35] corner, the dying see someone who's already died.
[00:28:39] David Kessler: Yes. [00:28:40]
[00:28:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:28:41] David Kessler: And it's called a deathbed vision. There's many names, [00:28:45] near-death awareness. This is different than, um, uh, [00:28:50] when we talk about near-death experiences. This is the person [00:28:55] is dying and someone comes to greet them who's already died.
[00:28:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:29:00]
[00:29:00] David Kessler: And it was fascinating. I wrote this other book called Visions, Trips and Crowded Rooms: [00:29:05] Who And What We See Before We Die, and I knew I [00:29:10] wanted it to be really credible, and I interviewed doctors, nurses, first [00:29:15] responders, clergy, psychologists, on their experience [00:29:20] working with the dying, seeing people having these visions-
[00:29:23] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:29:24] David Kessler: [00:29:25] and how comforting it is, and the difference between that [00:29:30] and a hallucination, not to mistake the two. So I think it's fascinating [00:29:35] that as the body is winding down, these spiritual beings are [00:29:40] connecting. They're
[00:29:40] Dr. Taz: connected, yeah.
[00:29:41] David Kessler: Are connecting again.
[00:29:43] Dr. Taz: So fascinating.
[00:29:44] David Kessler: And you're [00:29:45] leaving this world of body to become all spirit, only [00:29:50] spirit.
[00:29:51] Dr. Taz: Do you think we've done enough work? I have a dear, dear friend who [00:29:55] took a year- he's a surgeon, and he took a year off to go and do a [00:30:00] sabbatical to help people in their final phases of life, and when [00:30:05] I asked him why, he said, "Well, we're all getting older. I feel like I need to be [00:30:10] there and be the guide for our community as people lose parents, loved [00:30:15] ones- Right
[00:30:15] Dr. Taz: partners, whoever else." And, you know, it struck me. It's like I've [00:30:20] not really thought about that, but he spent a year wrestling with these ideas and [00:30:25] trying to understand how to be there, 'cause of course, he, like me, has seen quite a bit. Right. You know, as we, [00:30:30] as we think about where we've come, we have hospice now, we have palliative [00:30:35] care, you know, there's a whole field around, around this.
[00:30:39] Dr. Taz: Have [00:30:40] we done enough? What's missing?
[00:30:42] David Kessler: Not yet. [00:30:45] The releasing of the fear. The releasing of the fear. [00:30:50] The very thing, the reason why we don't talk about it. I'm so glad [00:30:55] we're doing this, 'cause just this- Right ... we don't talk about this. Right. I mean-
[00:30:58] Dr. Taz: Well, I mean, it's not like a [00:31:00] flashy topic,
[00:31:00] David Kessler: right? It's not a flashy topic.
[00:31:02] Dr. Taz: But it's important, you know, so.
[00:31:02] David Kessler: And it's, [00:31:05] it's a life-affirming topic, and I'm teaching [00:31:10] what our great-grandparents knew.
[00:31:11] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:12] David Kessler: How to be with the dying, how to be with people in [00:31:15] grief, how to be with our own mortality. I have to tell you, I was walking in my [00:31:20] neighborhood and I run into someone, her and I worked together [00:31:25] 30 years ago at Children's Hospital.
[00:31:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:27] David Kessler: I run into her. She's like, "Oh, I've been [00:31:30] following you, da, da, da, da. I thought about you a million times and all that. I can't believe we live so [00:31:35] close." And she goes, "I'm sorry, I can't be your friend." And I went, [00:31:40] "Okay." Why? Just curious why. Mm-hmm. And she goes, "It would [00:31:45] just be too depressing." And I think that's [00:31:50] the myth-
[00:31:51] Dr. Taz: Mm
[00:31:51] David Kessler: that looking at these topics, I just [00:31:55] happened to embody that for her, looking at these topics. First of all, I said [00:32:00] to her, "I'm actually not walking around talking death- Right ... and dying in my [00:32:05] personal life- Right, right ... every moment, death and grief." But we don't look at this, and I'll tell you [00:32:10] something else that really showed me.
[00:32:12] David Kessler: I used to do, before the pandemic, [00:32:15] you know, I was one of those guys, 30 lectures, three countries, da, da, da, all that. [00:32:20] Right.
[00:32:20] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:32:20] David Kessler: And I would be going to hotel after hotel. In the meeting [00:32:25] room, we'd have 2 or 300 people. Next door would be the realtors, [00:32:30] down the hall would be the nursing- Yep ... the Kiwanis Club- Mm-hmm
[00:32:32] David Kessler: the Rotary Club.
[00:32:33] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:32:35]
[00:32:35] David Kessler: At the end of the day, and it happened so many times, the staff would go as they cleaned up, [00:32:40] "Hey, what were you teaching?" And I'd go, "Why?" And they would go, "Your group was [00:32:45] laughing the most." And I would go, "Grief." [00:32:50] And they'd go, "What kind of grief?" Why is that funny? Ki- and I would say, "That kind of grief."
[00:32:53] David Kessler: Here's what people don't know- [00:32:55] Those people in the room [00:33:00] absolutely could cry, and grief had [00:33:05] expanded their bandwidth into pain.
[00:33:07] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:33:08] David Kessler: They also laughed [00:33:10] harder. It expands our bandwidth into joy [00:33:15] I, sometimes I have to actually remind my friends, you know, I, to grieve. I know, da, da, [00:33:20] da. 'Cause they don't see me that way.
[00:33:22] David Kessler: I, I, I've, you know, and we'll talk about [00:33:25] it, I've been through just great tragedies. Right. And I think I'm one of the [00:33:30] happiest people I'm aware of, that I love life. I don't... [00:33:35] This idea that we're going to die, I absolutely, I can [00:33:40] close up, I can shut down, or I can go, "Let me drink [00:33:45] in this moment more."
[00:33:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:33:46] David Kessler: Let me really take this in.
[00:33:48] David Kessler: Wring out the most, yeah. This is, [00:33:50] like, an amazing moment we're in, and to appreciate it.
[00:33:54] Dr. Taz: Well, I think it's, you [00:33:55] know, just, it's, like, almost like adversity, right? I think when you experience it, you're so much more [00:34:00] grateful for every moment you have, for every opportunity you have, and you're able to move [00:34:05] forward, you know?
[00:34:05] Dr. Taz: So- And the
[00:34:05] David Kessler: humanness of it all.
[00:34:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:07] David Kessler: You know, it's not like I don't get upset at the [00:34:10] little things, but I also recognize the humanness of a-
[00:34:12] Dr. Taz: Well, I think that's a really important point, because we spend a [00:34:15] lot of time on this show talking about the human experience, and a part of the human experience, it's not just [00:34:20] about being, like, strong and energetic and vital and youthful looking- In a
[00:34:24] David Kessler: state [00:34:25] of awe
[00:34:25] Dr. Taz: you know, all the time. It's also there are going to be these [00:34:30] other emotions- Right ... that you're gonna deal with. There's going to be grief. There's gonna be loss. There are [00:34:35] going to be setbacks. And the ability, like you're describing, to expand, some [00:34:40] might call that resilience to a certain extent, right? Or i- I'd be curious to see what you say about [00:34:45] that.
[00:34:45] Dr. Taz: But the ability to expand through the range of emotions that we as [00:34:50] humans- Right ... have to experience, but then understand that, that this is a range, [00:34:55] is a part of what gives us resilience, right?
[00:34:57] David Kessler: And we live in a culture now that's [00:35:00] all about, how do I master the peaks?
[00:35:02] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:35:03] David Kessler: And I'm about, [00:35:05] ooh, you wanna master the peaks?
[00:35:07] David Kessler: Walk through the valleys well. Right. [00:35:10] Walk through the valleys well. Because how many of us, and [00:35:15] we see this- Mm-hmm ... we see people with so much success and fame and [00:35:20] money, and are just tragically unhappy.
[00:35:23] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:35:24] David Kessler: [00:35:25] It's if you don't walk through the valley, you get to the peak, and you go, "Is this all [00:35:30] there is?"
[00:35:30] Dr. Taz: All
[00:35:30] David Kessler: the time. Why is this peak so empty?
[00:35:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. All the time. Well, [00:35:35] grief is not just about death, right?
[00:35:37] David Kessler: Correct. Right. Good point. I'm glad you brought
[00:35:39] Dr. Taz: that up. You know, I, I [00:35:40] do wanna make sure people understand that grief comes in lots of different forms.
[00:35:44] David Kessler: [00:35:45] Yes.
[00:35:45] Dr. Taz: It can come in the form of a divorce. Yes. The loss of a child, [00:35:50] loss of a loved one, right?
[00:35:51] Dr. Taz: Correct. It can come in the form of a loss of a job, [00:35:55] right? There, I mean, there's so many, loss of your identity, right?
[00:35:58] David Kessler: Yes.
[00:35:58] Dr. Taz: You know, loss [00:36:00] of basic functions in life that you were able to do, either because of sickness or some other injury or [00:36:05] something along those lines. You know, is that type of grief different from the grief of [00:36:10] death and dying?
[00:36:12] Dr. Taz: And what is the journey for those
[00:36:14] David Kessler: folks? There's a [00:36:15] little nuances there, but I always think of them as a death. I always say a [00:36:20] breakup is the death of that relationship in the romantic form. A divorce [00:36:25] is the death of the marriage. A job loss is the death of that job. [00:36:30] Pet loss is obviously the loss of the pet, your dear pet.
[00:36:34] David Kessler: But also [00:36:35] there's things we're talking more about that like, oh, being in relationship [00:36:40] with someone who's narcissistically abusive-
[00:36:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:36:44] David Kessler: feels like the death [00:36:45] of yourself. There's a lot of inner deaths. Those are the [00:36:50] only ones we can come back from that death. You know, we [00:36:55] can't undo a divorce. We can't often, we can't undo a physical [00:37:00] death.
[00:37:00] David Kessler: Right,
[00:37:00] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:37:00] David Kessler: But we can find a way to heal ourselves. [00:37:05] Um, so there's so many losses, and here's [00:37:10] the thing. They all sit in this world. One of the things I try to teach [00:37:15] is security in your grief. People go, "What's that?" [00:37:20] I have security in my grief. I know my losses. I take care of [00:37:25] myself. I try to grieve fully and live fully.
[00:37:28] David Kessler: Someone comes up [00:37:30] and tells me they're grieving over they didn't get the school [00:37:35] they wanted, I sit with them and see their sadness.
[00:37:39] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:39] David Kessler: It's [00:37:40] not a comment on my grief. Someone else, you know, [00:37:45] breaks up with a relationship of three months, I don't go, "Pfft, that's not real grief."
[00:37:49] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:37:49] David Kessler: People [00:37:50] always wanna know from me, what's the worst grief?
[00:37:53] David Kessler: Is it a child dying? [00:37:55] Is it a divorce from your soulmate? The worst grief is [00:38:00] always yours.
[00:38:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Your experience.
[00:38:02] David Kessler: Your experience. Yeah. None of us [00:38:05] can know each other's grief. And comparison [00:38:10] is of our mind.
[00:38:11] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:38:11] David Kessler: We don't have a broken mind, we have a broken heart. [00:38:15]
[00:38:15] Dr. Taz: Most of us, or what I've experienced, most of us experience grief right here.
[00:38:19] David Kessler: Yes.
[00:38:19] Dr. Taz: [00:38:20] Right in the chest. Has that been your experience as well? As, as people say, "I feel like I can't breathe. I feel [00:38:25] like something's sitting on my chest." You know, these are some of the things I hear- Y- ... over and over again ... I
[00:38:29] David Kessler: [00:38:30] think it's probably the most common, but I experience grief in my [00:38:35] lower back.
[00:38:35] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:38:36] David Kessler: I know people experience it in their throat, [00:38:40] headaches.
[00:38:40] David Kessler: There's broken heart syndrome that we see as a real illness now. It's
[00:38:44] Dr. Taz: [00:38:45] a, it's real.
[00:38:45] David Kessler: Very real. Yes. Yeah. Takotsubo cardiomyopathy. Yes. And [00:38:50] we think probably maybe over 90% of us get [00:38:55] broken heart syndrome, changes, actual physical changes in our heart, [00:39:00] and there's a tiny, tiny percentage that do die from it.
[00:39:04] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:39:04] David Kessler: [00:39:05] And that's why we always say, obviously when anyone says chest pain, I'm like, "Get it checked- Right ... and then we'll [00:39:10] talk."
[00:39:10] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:39:10] David Kessler: Mm. Make sure your doctor knows about broken heart syndrome. Um, so [00:39:15] it's, it's fascinating that, and I work closely with Paul Denniston, who does- Mm-hmm ... grief [00:39:20] yoga.
[00:39:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:21] David Kessler: And he always really helps people feel [00:39:25] where it is in their body.
[00:39:27] David Kessler: Where does your grief reside? And [00:39:30] just like you said, a lot of times it's right here.
[00:39:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And the energy world, like the [00:39:35] people that do energy healing, I mean, they- Right ... I've always been fascinated by the work that they do. They [00:39:40] talk about grief living right in here. Yes. And they talk about the movement of it.
[00:39:44] Dr. Taz: Yes. Can [00:39:45] we move it? They don't talk about it going away. They're not like, "Okay, let's go put it on a shelf. You're done." But they talk [00:39:50] about moving it. Can we move it? Can we- Yes ... move it to a different part of the body? Can you, can you [00:39:55] understand where it plays into the rest of your experience? So I always find that so fascinating.
[00:39:58] Dr. Taz: And that
[00:39:58] David Kessler: our [00:40:00] emotions need motion.
[00:40:00] Dr. Taz: Correct. Yeah.
[00:40:01] David Kessler: You know, there needs to be movement internally of [00:40:05] that energy, externally of our body.
[00:40:07] Dr. Taz: Well, you have, again, [00:40:10] published many books since even those first two. This is your sixth book now, right?
[00:40:14] David Kessler: Six and [00:40:15] seven.
[00:40:15] Dr. Taz: Sixth and seven. All right. You're on a, you're on a roll here.
[00:40:18] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about what's different-
[00:40:19] David Kessler: [00:40:20] Yeah ...
[00:40:20] Dr. Taz: in these books versus some of what you've done in the past.
[00:40:22] David Kessler: So eight years ago, [00:40:25] been a grief expert for decades, and [00:40:30] unexpectedly, my younger son, David, at 21 years old, dies.
[00:40:34] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:40:35]
[00:40:36] David Kessler: Devastating. Devastating, devastating, [00:40:40] devastating. I, you know, m- felt like my world [00:40:45] ended, and I canceled [00:40:50] everything and sat with that, and you know, it was just so brutal.
[00:40:54] David Kessler: And [00:40:55] probably a few months in, I was home [00:41:00] and I picked up this chapter [00:41:05] that I had written on meaning, and I'd lifted up, I went, "Meaning, pfft, like that's gonna help," [00:41:10] and I threw it back down. And about couple of [00:41:15] weeks later, I read it, and it didn't take away the pain, but it [00:41:20] gave me some comfort. And I got so curious, and I went back and I read Viktor [00:41:25] Frankl's work.
[00:41:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:26] David Kessler: And Man's Search for Meaning, and how [00:41:30] does all this sit within us? And the one thing that personally, there was the [00:41:35] grief expert in me, and here's the worst part is, besides my son dying being the worst part, [00:41:40] is I had to take my own medicine. I used to [00:41:45] hand out, "Go to a counselor-
[00:41:47] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:41:47] David Kessler: go to a grief group," like candy.[00:41:50]
[00:41:50] David Kessler: I had to go to a counselor, a grief [00:41:55] counselor, and I had to go to a grief group. It took me three [00:42:00] times to just walk into the group.
[00:42:01] Dr. Taz: Oh my goodness.
[00:42:02] David Kessler: I put a cap on, I took my [00:42:05] glasses off, and uh, my contacts out and put glasses [00:42:10] on, and I had to sit in a grief group with my books five feet away [00:42:15] on a table there on display, and I couldn't say anyone, "That's me."
[00:42:19] David Kessler: [00:42:20] That's
[00:42:20] Dr. Taz: me.
[00:42:21] David Kessler: I had to be the father. And so [00:42:25] as the grief expert watched me going through this, I would go, [00:42:30] "Yep, that's true. Yep, yep, yeah." And when I got to, [00:42:35] "Someday you're gonna have to accept this," I was like, "I'm not stopping there." [00:42:40] And Kubler-Ross and I had always taught acceptance isn't a [00:42:45] finality.
[00:42:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:42:47] David Kessler: I thought there has to be more.
[00:42:49] David Kessler: [00:42:50] And finally, what I got for me was meaning. I wanted to find [00:42:55] meaning. And as I began researching this, I thought the [00:43:00] disconnect in this for people is when they hear meaning, they go, "There's no meaning in a- In a [00:43:05] loss ... child's death- Right ... in a horrible divorce- Right ... in a murder." And I [00:43:10] realized, oh, meaning isn't in the horrible event.
[00:43:14] David Kessler: [00:43:15] Meaning is what we do after. Meaning isn't the [00:43:20] post-traumatic stress. Meaning is the post-traumatic growth.
[00:43:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:24] David Kessler: And [00:43:25] so that became finding meaning. And I was so honored. The publisher [00:43:30] had said, "You know, it's almost like you're adding a stage." And [00:43:35] they asked, and we asked the Kubler-Ross family and her foundation, [00:43:40] and they so graciously said yes, that I could add a sixth stage- Oh, amazing
[00:43:44] David Kessler: to her iconic [00:43:45] stages. The finding meaning. So that's finding meaning, the sixth stage of grief. And it was [00:43:50] also a chance to write again. Hey, everyone, they're not linear. Stop that. Right. So I got to [00:43:55] say that. Remind everyone, yeah. You know, don't misuse them and misinterpret them. But [00:44:00] it was a way to really help people and for my [00:44:05] own healing, and that we have this [00:44:10] choice, you know.
[00:44:10] David Kessler: And the choice for me, I gotta tell you, in those early days, a [00:44:15] dear friend, Diane Gray, who's head of the, was head of the Kubler-Ross Foundation at the time, [00:44:20] she said, "You're going down. You're gonna be down [00:44:25] for a long time." And she said, "At some point, you're gonna hit [00:44:30] bottom, and you're gonna have a choice."[00:44:35]
[00:44:35] David Kessler: Stay there or do you live again?
[00:44:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:44:39] David Kessler: And I have to tell [00:44:40] you, after that, she had planted just a seed. [00:44:45] And that little neighborhood that I told you I lived in, this cute little neighborhood, [00:44:50] I could see into the future, and I could see a day in [00:44:55] 20 years, the kids in the neighborhood riding their bike, and they stop at this [00:45:00] house with cobwebs.
[00:45:02] David Kessler: And the new kid says to them, "Is that a hau- Like that ... is [00:45:05] that a haunted house?" And they go, "Ooh, it's a grief expert [00:45:10] who helped everyone, but then his son died, and he's never [00:45:15] come out again."
[00:45:15] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:16] David Kessler: I could see becoming that person, [00:45:20] and I realized, oh, that's this end of the spectrum, [00:45:25] and I see people there What's the other end?[00:45:30]
[00:45:30] David Kessler: That is the finding meaning, the post-traumatic growth. And I know [00:45:35] my meaning- I was about to ask you ... as my son-
[00:45:37] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:45:37] David Kessler: loved my work. [00:45:40] He would never have wanted his death to constrict it.
[00:45:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:44] David Kessler: So [00:45:45] I decided that in honor of him, my meaning would be to expand my [00:45:50] work and go deeper, which was this.
[00:45:52] Dr. Taz: Amazing. So [00:45:55] post-traumatic growth is on the other side.
[00:45:58] David Kessler: How do we not just go through [00:46:00] this, but grow through this?
[00:46:01] Dr. Taz: Grow through it. I love that.
[00:46:03] David Kessler: Yeah.
[00:46:03] Dr. Taz: And then you have a workbook to go with it.
[00:46:04] David Kessler: [00:46:05] Everyone was like, "What's grief work?" Right. "And how do we implement this?" Right. Yeah. And, you know, [00:46:10] clinicians were wondering, like, "I know how to get through the third session-
[00:46:13] Dr. Taz: Right
[00:46:13] David Kessler: but where do we go [00:46:15] after that?"
[00:46:15] Dr. Taz: I was about to ask you, what do we as doctors do? Exactly.
[00:46:17] David Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. Where do we go after that? And [00:46:20] this really is a manual, the workbook. I designed it [00:46:25] that it's like I'm sitting at your kitchen table and we're just doing it together, [00:46:30] and I tell people, "Oh my gosh, my co-authors have been Kugler Ross and Louise Hay, [00:46:35] and this book, my co-author is the person doing it with me-
[00:46:38] Dr. Taz: Amazing
[00:46:39] David Kessler: at [00:46:40] the kitchen table." And I did it lightly. [00:46:45] Some checklist, like do a little checklist inventory on disloyalty. [00:46:50] Where do you believe living again might be disloyal? Then there's some more [00:46:55] open-ended questions.
[00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Wait, what's disloyalty meaning?
[00:46:57] David Kessler: Like disloyalty, we feel like you [00:47:00] should never laugh again. Right.
[00:47:01] David Kessler: You should never- You feel guilty ... be happy again. Right. It's that guilt. Just [00:47:05] to help people become aware, so I made parts easy, you know, midway, [00:47:10] and then I really take people to the end to help them find, [00:47:15] and I did a Joseph Campbell's hero's journey around [00:47:20] grief.
[00:47:20] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:47:20] David Kessler: That the griever is on the hero's journey.
[00:47:23] Dr. Taz: Mm, I love that.
[00:47:24] David Kessler: And that we're [00:47:25] all coming out the other end.
[00:47:27] Dr. Taz: So I love all the tools and the [00:47:30] resources that you've provided both for us as clinicians and doctors, right? And even for [00:47:35] the individual going through this. But at the end of the day, healing, right, and becoming [00:47:40] whole is about a community experience, right?
[00:47:42] Dr. Taz: Yes. It's about what you're surrounded by. Right. [00:47:45] As, as we watch people, and let's say we hand this to someone that we [00:47:50] know might need it, or even to another doctor who might need it, you know, but [00:47:55] as we sit in this community, as we sit together, what can the rest of us do?
[00:47:59] David Kessler: Yeah, and it's [00:48:00] so important because like you said, so many times physicians, nurses, they're like, "All I know [00:48:05] is to say, 'How are you doing?'"
[00:48:07] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:48:08] David Kessler: Which comes across like as a [00:48:10] stupid question. Right. Like, well, I don't know, they just died yesterday. [00:48:15] I tell people to add a time after it. How are you doing today? [00:48:20] Today. How are you doing right now? So that people get you're checking in on them. [00:48:25] And just like you said, study after study is [00:48:30] showing us in trauma and in grief, we need community.
[00:48:34] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:48:34] David Kessler: [00:48:35] We need others. That's why I love doing my groups online to help others, we focus [00:48:40] on the death of a person, to help other people in our healing. [00:48:45] Look, the most, uh, cruelest thing we [00:48:50] do in war is kill someone. The second cruelest is [00:48:55] isolation.
[00:48:55] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:48:56] David Kessler: When we go into grief, we often wanna [00:49:00] isolate, and we need other people to heal.
[00:49:04] David Kessler: [00:49:05] Grief must be witnessed. We need to see our pain in the [00:49:10] eyes of another.
[00:49:11] Dr. Taz: And I wanna ask you one more question before we leave this [00:49:15] conversation. Do men experience grief differently than women, [00:49:20] or is the experience universal?
[00:49:22] David Kessler: The experience is universal, [00:49:25] but there are some things about how we were raised.
[00:49:29] David Kessler: You know, look, [00:49:30] I'm a fixer. You got any problem- Yeah ... I've got three solutions for you. And then [00:49:35] we, you know, I think for men, it's challenging for everyone, but you know, [00:49:40] men today are telling me, "It's so confusing. On one hand, I'm now [00:49:45] supposed to be vulnerable and show my feelings, but I'm also supposed to be the rock."
[00:49:48] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:49:48] David Kessler: So it's like, you [00:49:50] know, I'm not- You can't win ... sure at any moment. Right. And then, you know, people love that I'm a fixer, [00:49:55] but got to grief and you got no tools.
[00:49:57] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:50:00] What would you tell anyone watching or listening today that's just struggling? [00:50:05] And it doesn't have to be from death, it could be from- Right
[00:50:07] Dr. Taz: divorce, it could be from, you know, a career [00:50:10] disruption, it could be from betrayal. So many different losses. So many- Right ... different ways we experience them. What would you [00:50:15] tell them? What are your, what are your kind of like parting words to them and directive to them [00:50:20] if they're just in that state of isolation, they're feeling the chest pain, they're, [00:50:25] they just don't know where to go next?
[00:50:26] David Kessler: I would te- obviously get the check, chest pain checked. Yes, please. But after [00:50:30] that, after that, I would say, you know-[00:50:35]
[00:50:36] David Kessler: Really honor what you've been through [00:50:40] and do not minimize it. We always go, "Oh, but it's just a divorce. No one died," or, "It's [00:50:45] just a no one died." And then sometimes we go, "Well, someone died, but they were 100," [00:50:50] or someone else w- there's always a loss worse than ours and [00:50:55] one that seems easier than ours. It doesn't matter.
[00:50:58] David Kessler: Just be present with yours [00:51:00] and seek support. I tell people, "I bought a maintenance [00:51:05] plan for my tire And yet people don't wanna give [00:51:10] themself a book- Right ... or a group- Right ... or a counselor or support. And I [00:51:15] gotta tell you, I pride myself, I said this last night, in my online groups, we are [00:51:20] full of physicians and nurses and therapists.
[00:51:23] David Kessler: I love when [00:51:25] we take care of ourselves and we don't let ourselves be the wounded healers. [00:51:30]
[00:51:30] Dr. Taz: I'm gonna add a medical nerd- Please ... point to this too, is that when [00:51:35] we don't do this work, regardless of what it is or the experience has [00:51:40] been, it shows up in your lab work.
[00:51:42] David Kessler: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:51:44] Dr. Taz: There's [00:51:45] inflammation, there is high cortisol- Absolutely
[00:51:46] Dr. Taz: there's hormone disruption. And over time-
[00:51:49] David Kessler: Yes ...
[00:51:49] Dr. Taz: [00:51:50] that's a diagnosis.
[00:51:51] David Kessler: Absolutely.
[00:51:51] Dr. Taz: So this is not
[00:51:53] David Kessler: just- So affects the body. This is not [00:51:55] just feel better emotionally. Right. This is your and [00:52:00] our soul, the vision is dampened. Right. You know? The [00:52:05] other thing I wanna say is a number of people say, "Oh, I bought your book, I put it on the shelf, not ready."
[00:52:09] Dr. Taz: [00:52:10] Right.
[00:52:10] David Kessler: And I'll say, "Why?" And they go, "I'm not ready to go into the pain."
[00:52:13] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:52:13] David Kessler: Our illusion [00:52:15] with the resources, anyone's resources, is that I don't wanna go into the [00:52:20] pain. The pain isn't in the shelf or the doctor's office or the [00:52:25] counselor, it's in us. And the last thing I would leave you with, and it sort of goes [00:52:30] along with what you just said, what we run from pursues us.
[00:52:34] David Kessler: [00:52:35] Yes. And what we face transforms us.
[00:52:38] Dr. Taz: Those are powerful [00:52:40] words. I don't think we could end it any better than that. I hope this has been inspirational [00:52:45] and I hope this has been a source of comfort to anyone listening today who may be at a [00:52:50] phase of their life where they just need some direction, and I hope your books provide that.
[00:52:54] Dr. Taz: I know they [00:52:55] did to me through the course of my career, so I'm so grateful for that. But if [00:53:00] somebody's ready for more and they wanna connect with you, and I know you have a million resources- Right ... talk to us a little bit about that.
[00:53:04] David Kessler: [00:53:05] Grief.com, there's tons of free resources, there's trainings, [00:53:10] there's groups if you feel like you need more.
[00:53:12] David Kessler: Um, there's also, I put [00:53:15] lots of things on social media. I just went to TikTok. I'm finding my way there. Yes. There we go. [00:53:20] Um, and, uh, you know, I, my handle on all those, whether it's [00:53:25] Facebook, Instagram, it's TikTok, is iamdavidkesler. That's how folks can find me, and I [00:53:30] put tons of information out there.
[00:53:32] Dr. Taz: Fantastic. I
[00:53:32] David Kessler: do a training for professionals and [00:53:35] people who wanna turn their pain into purpose. So lots of resources at grief.com. [00:53:40]
[00:53:40] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:53:42] David Kessler: Thank you for your work.
[00:53:43] Dr. Taz: I love it. I gotta ask one [00:53:45] last question. What makes you hol?[00:53:50]
[00:53:50] David Kessler: Finding my authentic self
[00:53:51] Dr. Taz: Love it. Love it. Thank you again. Thank
[00:53:54] David Kessler: you. Thank [00:53:55] you.
[00:53:57] Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening and watching today's [00:54:00] episode of hol+. Be sure to share this episode with your friends and family, and if you haven't already, [00:54:05] please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or click the follow button on Apple, [00:54:10] Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts.
[00:54:12] Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on all social [00:54:15] channels @DrTazMD. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.