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The Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast brings together amazing leaders, entrepreneurs, and experts to share the successes, challenges, and secrets to living and leading as a VIBRANT Leader.
Tune-in each week as Nicole Greer interviews a new Vibrant Leader.
Email her at nicole@vibrantculture.com
Al Devine x Nicole - Made with Clipchamp
Nicole Greer: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me the Vibrant Coach and I am here with another amazing, vibrant guest. Today on the show, I have Al Devine. He is an experienced regional sales coordinator with Aflac but he stepped out into his own business now and he's a skilled health insurance, customer service, employee benefits design, account management, and life insurance professional.
He is a strong sales professional with a Juris Doctor JD from Syracuse University College of Law. He is a former assistant district attorney for Suffolk County, New York, and a successful private practice attorney.
He joined Aflac nine years ago and has helped and coached countless people to become successful in their lives. Please welcome to the show, Al. How are you, Al?
Al Devine: I’m wonderful, Nicole. Thank you for having me.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, it's my delight. I'm glad you're here. Al and I were both at a SHRM meeting here in North Carolina, Society [00:01:00] for Human Resource Management meeting.
And we had a chat and I invited him on the show. So I'm absolutely delighted that you are here today. And so I know you've got this rich history and you've been in leadership positions before, and you're leading yourself in your own entrepreneurial endeavor now. How would you define leadership?
I am kind of collecting definitions of leadership.
Al Devine: Well, um, it's funny. I've done a lot of reading and, uh, played a lot of sports and I read a book by Tom Landry, um, several years ago and, uh, actually I wrote, I wrote it down, so I wouldn't forget what I wanted to say. Uh, so a leader is like, it's more of a coach, I think.
A coach is someone who encourages you to do what you don't necessarily want to do so you can achieve what you want to achieve. And I, that, that kind of resonated with me. I read that book years ago and I kind of wish I read it when I was a kid, you know, the coach, the coach would tell you to run an extra mile or run some laps.
Well, you got to get in shape. Then years later, as I was coaching [00:02:00] youth soccer and junior high soccer for my kids, I explained to the kids: guys, we got to run or something, girls as well. Um, we have to run. So we got to do an extra lap because all the other teams are also running extra laps.
Al Devine: So yeah, we ran one lap the first, first day or whatever. Now I know three, four, or five weeks into the season, we have to do more. Because everybody's getting in better shape. So do what you don't want to do so you can achieve what you want to achieve. That's kind of my definition of a coach or as a leader.
Nicole Greer: Okay. I love that. Do it, do it, say it again, do it what you have to do so you can get what you want to achieve.
Al Devine: This is, um, this is as close as I can remember. A coach is someone who encourages you to do what you don't necessarily want to do so you can achieve what you want to achieve.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Cause you know, the bottom line, Al, is like, if you want to get something done in this life, you're going to have to use a four letter word and that is w-o-r-k.
Am I right?
Al Devine: Absolutely. Exactly right. I'm a big follower of [00:03:00] Jim Rohnn, you know,
Nicole Greer: Oh, me too.
Al Devine: And you know, if you, if you want tomatoes in the fall, right, you got to, you got to plant them in the spring.
Nicole Greer: That's a hundred percent correct. Yes.
Al Devine: So that's kind of like, it's a long-winded explanation to my definition of leadership.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. So I bet you you've done that in your lifetime. You've put some laps in or done some things you didn't want to do that helped you get where you are. So do you have like a, maybe a little story or an example of, you know, buckling down and grunting out something you didn't want to do so you could get where you wanted to go?
Al Devine: Yeah, I mean, certainly getting my law degree, right?
Nicole Greer: Yeah.
Al Devine: I went to school in upstate New York for law school. And you know, if you're not from upstate or the North, I mean, extreme North. Snow and, uh, my, my, my law school friends, and we're still very close to today. Trudging through the snow and two feet of snow and get in the class.
They're like, why am I doing this? Uh, studying for the bar exam. I always wanted to be a prosecutor. [00:04:00] So, um, you know, those were all steps in becoming a prosecutor. So yeah, I mean, you gotta put the, you gotta put the time and the effort in.
Nicole Greer: Yes. 100%. Yeah. So it can be the actual studying for the bar or can just simply rolling out of bed, getting your clothes on, and getting over to class and the two feet of snow.
So there's this whole gamut of things that we have to do to move ourselves forward. That's fantastic. All right. So I'm curious, what, what do you think, uh, helped you develop your leadership style?
Al Devine: I would say, um, a lot of time, you know, uh, I've been thinking about this as well. Um, like even as a kid, I mean, a lot of it is like dealing with sports. I was never necessarily the best athlete on the team., That's for sure. But I love being part of the team. So, um, the coaching as a kid, I remember my JV football coach, sometimes he would yell at, you know, a player or whatever. They come over and say, I'm sorry didn't mean the yell at you and kiss their helmet.
He was just a [00:05:00] great coach. He's a great teacher. And, um, I just remember that to this day. That's, you know, more than forty years ago, probably forty-five years ago. Um, as to how he emboldened us and encouraged us. So, uh, some of the, you know, uh, Mike Hannah, he was a lacrosse coach as a kid.
Mr. Haniff, he was a baseball coach, how he kind of molded us and then professionally, um, one of my bureau chiefs in the DA's office was, uh, Emily Constant. Um, who was, who was a constant encourager. She, she certainly encouraged us, to, you know, do our, do our work and, and be ethical. Um, my good friend, Steve Kratz, who encouraged me when I left New York, when I left my practice to, uh, move down to North Carolina, he introduced me to the insurance world.
So he was, uh, he's probably the biggest encourager I've ever met. Very, very positive person. So, um, and certainly then later on in the Aflac world was Mike Butler [00:06:00] and Tommy Hatcher, my parents, obviously, uh, I'm the, I'm the second youngest of ten children. So they were, they were strong leaders in their own right.
And, um, certainly Jim Rohn, Jim Rohn, you know, I listened to so many of his tapes and CDs over the years that, um, you know, I, I really, I wish I, I wish I had known about him when I was in college. I probably would have done better in school if I had learned about him years ago.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So I just want to highlight a little bit of what Al is saying here for you listeners. He, he has said the word encourager about eight times. So first of all, I just want to say the words that come out of a leader's mouth or a mentor's mouth or a coach's mouth, they, they either like edify the person in front of them or tear them down.
And I think that that is really, really important to understand is that, you know, you can do something so simple. Um, and I love this image of that coach coming over and kissing your football helmet, like I, that, that's so [00:07:00] endearing to my heart, uh, cause I had a little football player for a long time . I just think that, you know, they're out there sweating to death and trying their best and, you know, it's, it's hot.
It's tiring. And they're just little people and, you know, and to have that coach come over and like, give you a swat on the butt, but then also a kiss on the helmet. I can totally see the whole team going down. Yeah. So I think words matter, don't they, Al?
Al Devine: They sure do. Absolutely. Yeah. They can build you up and they can tear you down.
So, um, And, you know, you can spend hours, right. Building somebody up and it takes a second to tear them down.
Nicole Greer: That's exactly right. And, um, you know, and I love the, what I love about Al's, uh, answer to that question too, also was this, is that like, he had a whole series of people, like how blessed is Al Devine that he had all these people that continued, uh, to, to talk into his life and to encourage him.
So just think about, um, yourself right now, listener, if you had, um, uh, somebody in your past that you encouraged, encouraged, encouraged. And if they had to make a laundry list, would your name [00:08:00] be on that list as an encourager? So that's what you want to do. That's what you want to do. Well, you know,
Al Devine: I wouldn't say that my kids might not say that.
Nicole Greer: Oh, I, I bet they would. I bet they would. How old are your kids?
Al Devine: Uh, my daughter is 27 and my son is 24.
Nicole Greer: Oh yeah, I bet they would for sure. There is a space of time, you know this, Al, where you're not, you're not the brightest guy in the book, but then all of a sudden you become smart again. I'm in the smart again category, so I, I bet you you're there too.
You're old enough for that. Yep. Okay. All right. So what traits does a great leader have? What do you think the, the traits of a leader are and why?
Al Devine: Um, certainly, uh, empathy, You know, it's, uh, you have to be able to feel for the person. Uh, humble. Giving praise. Not taking credit or, or sharing the credit is also a good thing. Being a listener. Sometimes you got to bite your tongue, you know, it's, uh, you know, allow [00:09:00] people to make mistakes. Um, you know, uh, just again, going back to sports. You're not on the field, you're not on the court with the, with the athletes. So sometimes you have to sit back and say, we practiced that hope, hopefully it works out. Um, I was just reading something, maybe it's about John Wooden.
Nicole Greer: I love John Wooden so much.
Everybody go buy, go buy a book that has all his quotes in it. Everybody do that.
Al Devine: Absolutely. I have one of those books right here. What do I got? The Pyramid of Success, right?
Nicole Greer: Oh my gosh. So good. Good. Yeah.
Al Devine: Um, and it says practice, practice, practice cause, you're only on the field or the court for an hour a week or whatever it is.
Well, certainly basketball more than that, but two hours a week maybe in basketball. But you're practicing for 20, 30, 40 hours. Um, so, and it's same thing with sales or you know, anything you do, you gotta practice and you make a mistake and, and you, you pick yourself up and you, and you move on. So I think a leader, they can't [00:10:00] overreact when a mistake is made. And sometimes it's a big financial mistake, right? You know, you, I don't know, you put something in the wrong spot it might cost thousands of dollars, but you, you know, you deal with it private, you deal with that situation in private, and then you praise in public.
That's, that's a big thing. Cause sometimes we have it backwards where you criticize in public, but then you praise in private. So you certainly criticize, criticize in private and praise in public. Like I said, sympathy, um, and a few others I had written down, um, sometimes got to push, right?
Sometimes you got to push your folks, um, you know, uh, you know, either towards a deadline. You know, you gotta, you gotta push. But the flip side is you also have to lead from the front. Jim Rohn says, take the 1st arrow right?
In today's world might not be the right thing to say, but sometimes you gotta, you gotta lead from the front and be the 1st one to do it. And if they see you doing it, [00:11:00] um, they're going to say, okay, if Al's was doing it or John's doing it or Mary's doing it, then they'll do it. So certainly pushing, um, encouraging lending a hand. Um, there's so many things, you know. You could be, uh, be humble, but not a pushover. Um, be strong, but not a bully. You know, those are, those are some of the things I would say.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. I love what you're saying. Yeah, and I, I couldn't agree more, and so don't miss everybody that he's mentioned Jim Rohn a couple of times, and you've heard me mention it before, if you're, if you listen to the podcast frequently, you know that I'm a big fan.
So go over to the YouTube, not right now, but when you're done listening to this, go over to the YouTube and his last name is ROHN. Uh, Jim has popped off the planet now. He's up in heaven now, but he, uh, was instrumental in giving amazing mentorship and leadership to thousands and thousands and thousands of people.
And he's got books that you can buy, of course, on the Amazon. So check him out and also get the book, uh, [00:12:00] that you, uh, that Al just talked about, uh, by John Wooden. I think those would be, like, staples of your leadership library. I think that's fantastic. And one thing that I also love about what Al is saying is he, he said, you know, push, but don't be a bully.
You know, like he's saying, like there's this sweet spot to each one of these particular traits. He says, you know, be empathetic, but don't be a pushover. And I think that is a really good thing to highlight real quickly is that, you know, there are these things of traits of leaders, but you don't want to overuse them or underuse them. I think there's the sweet spot. What do you think, Al?
Al Devine: No, I agree. I agree. Um, I, you know, as we, as we, as we're chatting, I just think different things over the years, you know, like, um, I, I, you gotta find that balance and sometimes we do overdo it. Um, well, we don't do it enough.
Nicole Greer: That's right. Well, you know, one thing I'll tell leaders all the time is about, you know, you've got to be in a position where you can delegate to [00:13:00] people.
You've got to find people you trust, who you think are smart, who can come alongside you and kind of pick up some of the work that needs to be done inside your organization. And for many, many years, especially when I was younger, I was in charge of things. They always put me in charge of things pretty quickly because I had a lot of energy.
I think that was the bottom line. It was like, I was vibrant in the way back and they're like, just let her be in charge. She'll make sure it gets done. But oftentimes I would delegate things, but then people wouldn't do it, for whatever reason, whatever motive they had not to do what I asked them to do.
And I'd just clean up after them.
And do their work for them just so it would get done. And then, like, I didn't want to deal with the conflict, so I didn't say anything. So that would be kind of the pushover part that you're talking about, right? And, and instead I should have said, hey, you said you would do this for me.
What's up? And, you know, hold them accountable for what they were doing.
Al Devine: Well, certainly accountability is a big deal. Yes, exactly right. Yes. I mean, I, you know, even with your children, right? You got to hold them accountable, you know. [00:14:00] But very often, you know, they'll leave dishes in the sink.
It's easier for you to clean the dishes or whatever it is. Then you, you're annoyed for an hour or two. But you know, or you can get, listen, come out, get off the video games. We'll get out of bed and come. Come, uh, come do those, do those dishes like you said, you're going to do an hour ago, but it's the accountability.
Um, you know, and sometimes we overreact. Okay. You didn't do the dishes. You're not taking the car. Well, you know, then some things, then they start, then things tend to escalate. So, uh, it's, it's all about the balance, right?
Nicole Greer: Absolutely. And I think leaders have to be thoughtful, like before you say something, before you take action, maybe hold on for a hot second and reflect and think of what is the best way forward right here.
Al Devine: Well, Lincoln, I mean, we all, you know, obviously everybody's heard Abraham Lincoln. Things would happen. He'd write him a letter. He'd write a nasty gram or back before that nasty gram, but he'd write a nasty letter. Lick it, close it [00:15:00] and put it on his desk and then never send it.
So we got, but he just never sent it. So, you know, so instead of, instead of reacting, well, now it's like something happens. You send a nasty gram by text, like, just don't hit the send button. Don't hit the send button. My friend and I were talking. And sometimes you're like, it might be a sarcastic remark to you, but you take it a different way because there's no inflection. Like, maybe, maybe that person's having a bad day and just don't react and we can, if we could all just take a second and not react to everything that comes across your phone or your email. Things probably would be a little better off.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. And what Al is talking about is this thing I teach all the time. So Al, I teach emotional intelligence quite often. In fact, I just taught it last week twice, twice in one week. I had two huge groups of people. And so I'll just share with you listeners that, uh, emotional intelligence, I know you've heard that term before, but I'll remind you what the definition is.
It's, uh, the [00:16:00] acronym is RUM. Which is kind of fun, but RUM, uh, it stands for recognize, understand, and manage your emotions and the emotions of others. Meaning that like, if you get triggered by something, like somebody's comment, like, like Al was saying, it's like, just take a step back and go, did he mean that?
Or is he trying to be funny? But he's not so funny, you know, it's just, you know, checking yourself first. And then secondarily, you know, let's say that you think he is not trying to be funny, that he truly meant it. What you can do is you can do what we call, um, social awareness. Like, okay, before I assume, cause we all know what assume means make an ass out of you and me, I could just send a response and say, Hey, how did you mean this comment?
I want to take it the right way, you know, that's a good way to respond. And so then you're doing social awareness and then you're doing relationship management. Like, I don't want to have a fuss with you. So let me just [00:17:00] check in and see what's going on here. So there's a little two cents on emotional intelligence, and that would be one of the traits that that leaders need to have is superior emotional intelligence.
What do you think about that, Al?
Al Devine: Oh, I agree.
I know that, no doubt about it. I mean, it's, you can't react to everything. That comes with maturity too.
Nicole Greer: Oh, 100%.
Al Devine: And it comes with making mistakes. Sometimes we do overreact and say, Oh, you know, note to self, don't react that way the next time. It could be with your children.
I mean, spilt milk or what I mean, you know, there's so many, idioms like, you know, don't cry over spilt milk or whatever. I mean, sometimes, sometimes your feelings will get hurt. Certainly as a leader, your feelings will get hurt and, um, you got to be able to move on, um, you know, because sometimes the people that you're trying to lead are not necessarily as, as mature as you as well.
Um, and you have to, and where, and where are they? Are they having a bad day? Did their car break down? Is there a cat [00:18:00] sick because I've said the cat, cause we have a cat and the dog's here, you know, and…
Nicole Greer: You're surrounded.
Al Devine: We are, yeah. And that's, that's the sales team right now. Get to work guys. And yeah, but so what, what happened in their life today?
I mean, are they normally nice to you? All of a sudden something happened, you know, and they, they, they, maybe you're the first person that they saw and they bit your head off for whatever reason. So sometimes you take a step back and then say, what, what happened? Is everything okay? Um, what's wrong? Um, find out where they're coming from.
It's not where you are, where they're coming from. Those are traits of people that, you know, you have to be able to deal with.
Nicole Greer: I totally agree. And, uh, I think what you're saying about, um, you know, stepping back, uh, you know, they've said over and over again. In many of the leadership studies is that great leaders, uh, have the ability to pause, and to think, right? And be what I would call strategic. And I love your comment about emotional intelligence being, uh, maturity. I couldn't agree more. In [00:19:00] fact, sometimes I kid and I say, you know, I, I wish I could call my emotional intelligence class, you know, the maturity class, but I don't think anybody would sign up because everybody thinks they've totally matured.
They don't, they don't have anything new to learn. Uh, and it's true, you know, having emotional intelligence is what my, I have a, I had a grandma that raised me, Al. Her name was Myrtle Clara Catherine Charlotte Whitcapale. She was a little formidable German woman, uh, who raised me. And she would say to me, you know, whenever I was upset with somebody, she would just say, Oh honey, kill them with kindness.
Now don't miss, she said, kill them. But she was like, just take the high road. You know, don't, don't let it get to you. You know, don't let that meanness upset you. That's what they want.
Al Devine: And that's absolutely correct. It's, um, it's funny you said that there's an old lawyer that I knew years ago and he used to say the same thing, kill them with kindness.
Yeah. And, uh, great advice.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, I think so too. And then, you know, you said, you know, some, sometimes [00:20:00] people, they, they're, they don't have that maturity. And, and sometimes, you know, it's actually like a blind spot. Like if you don't know any better, you don't know any better until somebody teaches you, teaches you better.
Al Devine: Yes.
Nicole Greer: And then once you know better, you're better. I mean, it's just really simple that way. So, so sometimes in a, in a, in a conversation or a dealing, uh, with somebody, it's just like, you got to show them the way because nobody has before. And sometimes we just tolerate people and their behavior instead of like coming alongside them and saying, Hey, I've got an idea for you. Would you like this idea? Here's how you might handle this.
Al Devine: Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. And you know, they might be like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know.
Al Devine: Yeah.
Nicole Greer: Yeah.
Al Devine: You don't know what you don't know. Right.
Nicole Greer: That's exactly right. Yeah. All right. So, um, I'm curious, um, how have you, uh, built, um, your business over the years?
You know, we're talking to a lot of people who are in leadership and I know that you've been successful. You [00:21:00] had a law practice, then you, like, crazy up and moved in North Carolina. And then, uh, you are regional with, uh, Aflac and now you're kind of out on your own. So tell me a little bit about how you've built your business over there.
What's the secret to building the business? Cause we all know that you can't have a vibrant culture unless you have great products and services. Um, so tell me a little bit about that.
Al Devine: This might be a long winded answer. Hope. It's okay.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, we've got 24 minutes. We got all the time…
Al Devine: I can get this done in 23.
Nicole Greer: okay. Good. Very good.
Al Devine: I always wanted to be a prosecutor. So that, you know, I, uh, so when I, when I started the DA's office, you know, 1991, it's a long time ago. And I thought I was going to be there for life. And I loved it. I loved every single day I was there. But then reality set in and we couldn't pay the bills, you know, you know, paying a mortgage, little kids, um, you know, wasn't like you could be the best because, I mean, there was, there's a government job.
It was just, the [00:22:00] money was, the money.
Nicole Greer: It is what it is as they say.
Al Devine: Yep. So my friend and I, we were there for seven years or so, and, uh, we decided to go out on our own. And I remember Emily, Emily Constant mentioned her before. And I just won a, a big case and, I said, Emily, I think I have to leave.
She goes, are you crazy? I said, Emily, I'm going broke and I can either go broke here or go broke on my own. So I must, if I'm going to go broke, I might as well go down swinging. So my friend and I started a law practice. My friend, Dan, Dan McCormick, still a very close friend of mine. And, um, we did it for 10 years and it was good and it was really good.
Then it became more about the money, honestly. And it would just stop being fun. You know, we love being, we love being in the practice, but the business part of it wasn't so much fun, but the business part was fun than the law practice was, was hard. So, um, my wife loves horses, you can see some of the stuff in the background.
So we bought 18 acres in the country in 2007, [00:23:00] and people thought we were crazy. Because, you know, we had a good practice, but, you know, we decided to do something different. And so we bought 18 acres in the country and, uh, my wife brought her horses down here and we have, now we have a little horse farm too, you know, over…
Nicole Greer: Nice!
Al Devine: ..the years we built the barn and we have, uh, we've had boarders here.
So, um, then I met my friend Steve, so that's kind of how I got into the insurance business. And failure really was not an option. I mean, my license, my law license would transfer to North Carolina at the time and I'm still licensed in New York. But I just kind of didn't have the passion anymore for, for, for, for practicing law. So I, uh, so I met my friend Steve and I thought about doing all these different types of businesses, uh, Maybe a restaurant or whatever. Right. And, uh, so I, I got my insurance license and met Steve. And Steve he really looked out for me and, uh, he, he, like I was saying about the constant encourager, he's always, everything was positive with Steve.[00:24:00]
Nicole Greer: Right.
Al Devine: Um, it's like, you know, if you lost your, if you lost your left arm, it's okay, now you have your right arm. There's always that, that positive side to him. So, um, so that's what I did. That's actually when I first got introduced to Jim Rohn was through Steve.
And, um, so he's, you know, again, you've heard this before that, but I keep going back to Jim Rohn was, uh, you know, he, I can hear Jim's voice actually saying, you know, um, you want to be successful at sales, do three things. I Talk to lots of people every day, be real nice, and give great service, right?
Nicole Greer: Right.
Al Devine: The simple thing,
Nicole Greer: It's pretty simple.
Al Devine: And I figured, okay, well I, I can go, like there are a lot of people out there so I can go talk to lots of people and I'm, I'm generally outgoing. Um, I know I can give good service, that's the easy part. So it's a matter of just, um, just do it. Just go out there and do it.
So then, so I, you know, I was successful on the Aflac side. Then, then the world keeps getting bigger and bigger, the better you do. [00:25:00] So then he got other, other, other avenues between, you know, homeowner's insurance and workers comp insurance and Medicare insurance. So it was a big world out there. So I'm licensed in everything.
And my law degree, it helps.
Nicole Greer: Oh, I bet it does.
Al Devine: You know, because I did some estate planning, you know, after the DA's office, I did estate planning. And so, you know, you do, you know, you learn. And yet actually, you know, it's funny, now I'm bouncing around a little bit, but asked before about a leader, you have to be willing to learn, right?
Nicole Greer: 100%. I think it's, I think you have to, um, learn a lot, serve a lot, and help a lot. You know, and serve and help are a little bit different. One is, uh, you are underneath girding up what other people are trying to accomplish with your actions. And then helping is literally like, what do you need? Right? Right.
So one is building structure and the other is, you know, getting right in there and finding out exactly how you can help people. But I think learning is the number one thing in the world a leader needs to do, because the more, [00:26:00] you know about how business runs, business acumen to your point. You couldn't run your business at the level you're running it at today if you didn't get certified and all those different things.
Al Devine: Exactly.
Nicole Greer: And, and I do think the world is your oyster. I mean, you know that that's a William Shakespeare thing. But I, I believe that with all my heart. Like if you wanna get after something, you just have to go like back to the beginning of this podcast. You just have to work for it. Exactly. On steps.
Mm-Hmm. .
Al Devine: And yet, I mean, listen, my, we've been my wife. My wife is great. I mean, married 32 years, come, come February, so we've been kind of partners for a long time and we've known each other most of our adult life. So it's like, you got ups and downs, right? I mean, you know, when things are down, you know, then when things are up, so you got to, you know, it's nice to have a life partner.
Um, said, okay, all right, things are down. Okay. Let me give each other some space. Um, and then when things are up, okay, well, let's not go too crazy. Cause you gotta, you know, it's [00:27:00] gotta, it's gotta get stormy out again, right?
Nicole Greer: That's right. And what you're saying is, you know, like who, who you surround yourself with, which would be another Jim Rohn thing.
Right. I think he, isn't he the one that said, uh, you're the product of the four people or five people that you hang out with the most. And so, you know, if you hang out with a great lady for 32 years, that's a help.
Al Devine: It helps for sure. Yeah. Well, she keeps making gratitude as well.
I mean, she's really into the horses and stuff. So, um, so, so, you know, there's balance.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Fantastic. All right. So if I was to recap everything Al just said is that, um, he took a lot of risks and he followed his passion. That's kind of what I heard. So I loved being in the, in the, um, in the office doing, being the prosecutor, I loved it, you know. And then I tried my own thing, but I lost the passion. Then boom, I moved to North Carolina. So I think too, to be successful, there's a certain amount of risk you got to take.
Al Devine: Yeah. I would say it's kind of like calculated risk.
Nicole Greer: Sure. Sure.
Al Devine: Cause you know, we, we had a nice house in the Long Island.
That's where, that's where we're both from. I mean, we're native New [00:28:00] Yorkers. We would never leaving New York. Um, um, and then, uh, we did. You know, and, um, my backup plan was what's the worst that could happen? So that was, you know, we got, we moved to North Carolina and we, let's say we hate it. What's the worst that could happen?
We fall, we fall flat on our face. Well, I”ll moved back to New York and I”ll practiced law again.
Nicole Greer: Right
Al Devine: That was my backup plan. I mean, that's not that's not a terrible backup plan. Right? Um, so, I mean, you might have to find a new place to live, live or whatever it was, but I'm like, worst comes to worst we could always move back.
Um, so that's kind of, that's kind of how I looked at it. I said, I'm not, you know, that people said, ah, you're going, you're going to North Carolina. It's a lot of guts. I'm like, I'm not getting on the Mayflower. That took a lot of guts.
Nicole Greer: It's just the South. It'll be okay.
Al Devine: Exactly. I can be home, if I drove, I could be home in 10 hours.
Or get on a plane and be home in an hour. It's not like getting on the Mayflower, we don't know where we're going.
Nicole Greer: That's [00:29:00] right.
Al Devine: So, uh, those people have guts. This is coming down North Carolina and then just, you know, embracing it. And, um, you know, that's kind of how we looked at it. And we took, I mean, listen, we did take a big chance.
I mean, for our children, we pull the kids out of school. And, but we, looking back, we included them, they were little, but we included them in the, um, the decision making, like, you know, talking to the schools and, you know, they were, they were, I mean, my son was only going to second grade, my daughter went to fifth.
They were to a certain extent involved in the, in the conversation. And, um, you know, okay, let's take it right down North Carolina again, look at some houses. And so they were part of it and they, and they, they were looking forward to it. So it all worked out. My son went to Campbell, my daughter went to Carolina.
Nicole Greer: Oh my goodness, how wonderful.
Al Devine: Yeah, so we were very fortunate. Um, but yeah, so I mean, you know, so there's certainly luck and risk kind of go hand in hand. But believe, I think probably believing in yourself, um, you know. So you messed up. You made a mistake, you pick yourself up, you dust yourself off and you [00:30:00] go, get back in the game.
You don't really fail until you stay down, right?
Nicole Greer: That's so good. Yeah. And I, and I think too, it's like, you know, if, if you wanted to go back to Long Island this afternoon, I bet you there was somebody with a guest room with your name on it. Right. I mean, you didn't leave it permanently.
There's probably people up there, family that you can visit, uh, that kind of thing. So, I mean, I think it's, it's about being, um, taking a little bit of calculated risk. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's wonderful. Well, you know, How did you become a leader? I know at one point you were like the regional for Aflac.
Um, what do you think got you promoted? Or got you put in the leadership seat. You know, I think people listen to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast because they're trying to figure out how to develop a wonderful workplace. But I also think there are people out there listening who would like to get into a higher leadership seat or get into a leadership seat and start their leadership career.
How'd, how'd you get in the leadership seat?
Al Devine: There's no just real one answer to that. I would say [00:31:00] I think personality is part of it. You certainly have to be good at what you do. I mean, knowing the right people certainly helps, but that only gets you to a certain, certain spot, right?
You have to be able to perform. But for me, it's funny, like when I started as a lawyer, you would, you were involved with the insurance companies to a certain extent, but, um, not, certainly not in a state in the sales realm. First of all, I believed, I believed in what I did, I believed in the product, um, and the communication skills. Actually, I'm reading the book now, uh, John Maxwell, The 16 Undeniable Laws of Communication, um, one of his newer books. And I actually got it right here, but, um, I think got to read that's, you know, if you want to be a leader, you got to read readers.
Nicole Greer: Oh my God. Can we just stop there for just a moment? Did you hear what Al said? Everybody? I must say that on every single podcast. Leaders read period.
Don't tell me you don't read. You're not going to go anywhere. You [00:32:00] need more ideas in your head than what's in your head. Keep going. I just wanted to put a shout out for leaders read. Anyways, go ahead.
Al Devine: Leaders are readers, right? Yeah.
Nicole Greer: Oh my gosh. Yes.
Al Devine: I got a stack. I mean, I got a stack of books right here.
Like some of the books that kind of helped me out over the years. So if we have time, I'll kind of recommend some of them, but anyway, um, and I, I don't get a bonus by recommending the books. And there are tons of books I haven't read yet. Right. Um, so you gotta, you gotta read, you gotta, you gotta have a good personality.
People have to like you. Um, respect. They have to respect what you do. You have to earn their respect. You have to follow them as much as they follow you. If somebody has an idea, you have to listen because, you know, um, they might have a great idea you never thought about. Throughout history. I mean, uh, certainly American history.
I mean, the military, you know, yeah, you have generals, but sometimes the private has come up with the best idea. They're like, that's a great idea. Let's do it. I mean, if you've heard about, you [00:33:00] know, Normandy and stuff like that, I mean, they broke through the hedgerows. A lot of just the, the, um, uh, the privates and the, and the, and the corporals, they came up with the ideas of how to, how to make things happen.
Certainly during the revolution and all that. But, um, so you got to listen to other people. Open mindedness. Belief. So anyway, so I became a district sales coordinator. Um, and, uh, my friend Jay Hill, he was the state manager at the time, said, Al, you really became a student of the business and I think in order to be a leader, you have to become a student of the business.
Whether you're a coach, maybe you're a basketball coach or a soccer coach or, um, whatever, a parent. Um, you gotta be a student of what you, what you do. I love watching, I mean, I love watching kids at the supermarket and, um, sometimes the kids are like, they grabbing everything off the, uh, off the shelves and the parents are putting it back.
No, no, no, no. No, the kids are fine in the car. And why is that? [00:34:00] It's just skill. It's a skill of the parent. Um, you know, is this child, is this child listening to the parent or not listening to the parent? Does the child have respect for the parent? Does the parent have respect for the child? Uh, and I, and I love the people watch cause it's, it's kind of funny to me.
Like. God, that kid's a brat. Well, that kid's well behaved.
Nicole Greer: That's right. And, and I love what you're saying about does the child respect the parent and does the parent respect the child? And, and I think it's about sometimes, you know, uh, you do have to establish authority.
Al Devine: Sure.
Nicole Greer: As a leader, you know, like, uh, you know, I, I am in charge here, but trust me.
This is where we're going. And if you follow me, we will have a good trip. And I think that, you know, that's what needs to be said in the car, you know, prior to going into the grocery store. Like we're going to go in here and here's, what's going to happen. You know, so you cast a little vision, which is very leadershipy, right?
To cast a vision and this is how we're going to behave. Do you have any questions for me? [00:35:00] And there will be a reward, you know, if you behave yourself while we're in the grocery store, you know. And I think, I think that lesson goes all the way through till we're, you know, we're 60 and we're still working for five more years, you know, where are we going?
What's the reward? You know, leaders have to be telling these things.
Al Devine: Exactly for sure. And there's got to be consequences. I'm going to embarrass my daughter now. She was probably like five or six or seven at the time. We're going through this, walking into the supermarket as a matter of fact, and I go to grab her hand and she pulled it away. And this is a busy parking lot. So I grabbed her by the wrist. And I started singing in the parking lot. And I said, Oh, Marissa is too, too cool to hold the father's hand in the parking lot, but I don't want her to get run. I was singing a silly song and she was mortified.
Nicole Greer: Right.
Al Devine: So we get into this, we do a shopping and we walk out and she grabs my hand,
on the way out and I didn't sing on the way back to the car [00:36:00]
Nicole Greer: And that was her plan. I think
Al Devine: That was 20 years ago when we spoke about this, probably a month or two ago. Good dad. I remember that. Yeah. So it's kind of funny. I mean, so what, what the consequences I'm going to embarrass you. I mean, maybe that's not good as a leader.
And, you know, in a group of people, as a 7 year old, embarrassment work.
Nicole Greer: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I think that, uh, you know, one of the things that was so great about, you know, rate about raising my kids, I don't know about other kids. I mean, and everybody's got different kids like.
You know, you and I are both aware of that. But I, one of the things I notice is like, if you will talk to your children, that really helps. And so my kids have a big vocabulary because I read. I bet you, you have a great vocabulary too, because you read. So I have this big vocabulary. And so I would talk to my children. And the people, you know, all this, they were growing up.
It was like, man, your kids are really good at conversation and this and that. And I'm like, [00:37:00] that's because I had conversation with them. And then if we translate that over to a leadership and building a vibrant culture, you got to talk to your employees. You know, and I love what you said about being a student of the business.
My, like, that is so good. Everybody write that down. Be a student of the business. And people can't really be a student of the business if the leader is not talking to them. Because there's a limited amount of information out there, you know, and if you're over here in finance, but you don't know anything about the products, you know, you still need to be taught about it.
If you're over here with the products, but you don't know anything about how the company's financed, you may not be aware of how successful a company is, what a great job you have, what kind of job security you have. So, ah, I love that so much. Be a student of the business. That's so good. Well, I've got, I've got one last question.
Al Devine: Can I follow up on you just said?
Nicole Greer: Yeah, please.
Al Devine: It's funny. You said talking to them, right?
Nicole Greer: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Al Devine: So the key is [00:38:00] talking to them, not at them.
Nicole Greer: Yes, having a conversation, a back and forth. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, uh, one of the things that, uh, I'll tell you another class I teach all the time, Al, but it's because of my background in coaching. But, uh, I teach this program called Powerful Questions.
And I think that that is one of the most amazing things that a leader can do is ask really good questions instead of talking at people. Like going to your people and asking them a really powerful question. So maybe the leader could learn something and get the employees thinking, get their followers thinking.
And with children, it's the same way. You know, because kids will ask you why, why, why, and we grow irritated with the why, but I want to tell you, keep the, keep the curiosity going. Because this will serve a child or an employee a very, very, very long time is, is to get them asking why so that they grow. Yeah,
Al Devine: Absolutely. You know why exactly, right? 100 percent [00:39:00] you know, curiosity, don't kill the curiosity.
Nicole Greer: That's exactly right. Because that's the only thing that we've got to keep us, um, moving forward and being more valuable. The more we learn, the more valuable we are. That's the other thing I tell employees.
Like, they're like, I don't want to go to training. I'm like, what do you mean you don't want to go to training?
Al Devine: Exactly.
Nicole Greer: You're gonna own that training. Like you can leave the company and still take the training with you. It's a gift. What a gift. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. So what, uh, here'd be my last question for you.
Uh, maybe you could leave our listeners with one final great nugget. Uh, this will be, uh, you know, how can you help, uh, build a vibrant culture? If you're inside an organization, what can you do to be part of that vibrant culture? And when I say vibrant, I mean, you know, energized, excited, enthusiastic about the future.
Al Devine: Well, I think it's, it doesn't necessarily, it's funny. I thought about this question a little bit. It doesn't necessarily have to be a work environment, right? It doesn't have to be. You know, it could be your house, your home, [00:40:00] right? You and your family. It could be church. Um, it could be soccer, football, or whatever, you know, any, you know, it could be rotary.
So I think the first thing is to be involved. I mean, um, don't be a wallflower. I've always been kind of involved in stuff. You know, I'm probably more of a take charge type, not necessarily always take charge. Yeah, being from a large family, I think you probably become a little bit independent, um, at a younger age because you know, your parents can't be involved with everything with you. So sometimes you tend to be a little bit more independent. Um, you know, where I grew up as a kid, we used to, I tell my kids, we used to drive our bikes to the beach. We were 13 years old driving to the beach, swimming in the ocean
Nicole Greer: By ourselves.
Al Devine: And being home by five o'clock for dinner.
So, I mean, it was like probably 45 minutes to an hour bike ride to the beach and, you know, and I look back saying, I don't [00:41:00] know if I would let my kids do that today. Um, but we did it. And, uh, you know, and so, um, so being involved, I think that's a big thing. Um, and then, uh, so what can you do to help?
I was involved years ago with the church, uh, at the, at the yearly festival. And, um, so get involved and just say, okay, do what you say you're going to do. Um, you know, they wanted to raise some money. So I copied an idea from my father in law about raising money. And they're like, there's no way it's going to, that's going to work. I'm like, you want to raise some money will do, but it's gotta be, you know, it's gotta be, um, you know, encouraged with it and not really encouraged, but, um, that's the right word, like, know, accepted by the, by the, by the hierarchy of the church.
So, um, if they say you're, you're behind it, everybody else will be behind it. Um, so getting involved, um, so, you know, uh, it was a raffle. So I was assisted in starting the raffle . The soccer teams that I coached and the basketball teams I coach, you gotta, [00:42:00] they have to believe that you believe. So we had, uh, the little area that I live in is a rural, very rural and that our soccer team, my son's seventh grade team.
We got, you know, we had young kids on the team and we went to some of the bigger schools in the county and they crushed us. And, um, one team beat us for like 12 goals. And I, as we were leaving, I grabbed the coach and I said, what's the matter coach eight, nothing wasn't good enough for you. It's like, oh, I wasn't running up the score.
I said, so I kind of walked away, got on the bus. And I said to the kids, we're going to beat these guys next year, we're going to beat them. So first day of practice and now following, you know, most of the seventh graders came back as eighth graders. And I said, remember these, remember how they beat us? The school beat us last year.
We're going to beat them. We're going to beat them this year. So all, all year we're talking about beating that, that team. So, so, you know, give them a little, a little bit of a, a carry [00:43:00] at the end. I said, if we beat these guys. We can have a pizza party, so eighth grade boys, yeah, pizza party. So it was 1-1 with like five minutes to go in the game.
And the other team is panicking because they had more, they had more subs than we had players. And, uh, so one kid said, hey coach, if we tie, do we still get the pizza? I said, no way, we got to win.
Nicole Greer: That's right.
Al Devine: We got to win. So that we, you know, somebody on the team scored the winning goal. We won two to one. If we had just, if we had lost five, nothing the year before, it wouldn't have meant that much to me in this game. But when they embarrassed us, the kids remember. The other team was crying at the end of the game. I'm like, remember how they, they, they beat us so bad. Now they're crying, you know, you got to win with grace and you got to lose with grace and they never learned that.
And that was a, that was a problem with the coach. Um, so, but so that's, you know, believe having your people believe in, in what they're [00:44:00] doing is, is, I guess what I'm trying to say.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I have a personal mission statement, Al and it's, uh, Nicole Greer's on a mission to energize, impact, and influence people to lead a vibrant life through engaging with what is possible, and taking action to make it probable. And that's exactly what you did with that team. Right? It's like, is it possible we could win? And I think some kids, depending on what messages they get at home, so don't miss that everybody who has a team of employees. You never know what messages your employees got when they were at the house.
And we focused a lot on kids today, but I think it's a good example. I mean, like we are responsible for this next generation that's coming up inside of our organizations and they may have never had a leader that told them, no, we can win.
Al Devine: Right. Exactly. Right. You got to believe.
Nicole Greer: Yeah. And I think that, that, you know, that's, that's the other thing about business.
Sometimes we're a little confused about business. I mean, businesses have to win. Like what businesses that lose go out of business. And so you have to [00:45:00] win. You have to win the customers, you have to win the sale, you have to win the day, you have to win the customer service award. All of that really matters.
So, um, gosh, I've just had the greatest time talking with Al Devine. And hey, everybody, you can find him over on LinkedIn.com and it's Al-Devine. So LinkedIn with Al over there. And then also, is there a place that we can reach out to you if we want some help with our insurance?
Al Devine: Sure. Sure. Um,
Nicole Greer: Okay. Where do we go?
Al Devine: You can go, um, Google my name, my name will come up, that's for sure.
Nicole Greer: Okay.
Al Devine: I'll give you my telephone number.
Nicole Greer: Okay, give it to us. We'd love to have it.
Al Devine: Okay, uh, area code is 919-663-
4900.
Nicole Greer: Okay, very good. And Al, we have one final word you'd like to leave our listeners with.
Al Devine: Well, read some books.
So, um, this is one book that certainly helped me out a lot. Okay. It's written by a Navy Captain.
Nicole Greer: Oh, so good.
Al Devine: That really helped me out a [00:46:00] lot. And a lot of, you know, Certainly, uh, Stephen Covey, uh, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Anything by Jim Rohn, John Maxwell. An oldie but a good one, you know, The Magic of Thinking Big. I think one of the problems is we don't think big enough. You know, so, uh, so you got, you know, um, what are your goals? Learn how to goal set. You know, sometimes you won't get them, but at least try, write them down, give it a shot. You know, Nicole, it's been my pleasure for the last hour or so.
Nicole Greer: Yeah, mine too.
Listen, I will see you at the next SHRM meeting there in your neck of the woods. And in the meantime, everybody, again, go check out Al, just Google his name, Al Devine, he is divine. And it's been a pleasure to have you on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. Hey everybody, go down below and click like on this particular episode, if you've enjoyed it.
And if you would like and subscribe to everything and give us a five star review, we'd really appreciate it. Thanks so much, Al.
Al Devine: My pleasure. Thank you, Nicole.