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upGrad Enterprise aims to build the world’s largest GenAI learning initiative to enable high-growth companies to embrace technology’s transformative business impact. Hosted by Srikanth Iyengar, CEO, upGrad Enterprise, the GenAIrous Podcast, will curate an exciting roster of global experts and guests, who are at the cutting-edge of Generative AI, and its varied applications in the world of business.
Welcome to the GenAIrous Podcast where we unravel the fascinating world of generative AI and its transformative impact on business globally. I'm your host, Srikanth Iyengar, CEO of upGrad Enterprise. At upGrad Enterprise, we're building the world's largest Gen AI learning initiative, empowering high growth companies to leverage cutting edge technology. Each week, join me and the roster of global experts as we explore innovations shaping the world of work as we know it. Let's get generous.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:Welcome to another episode of the GenAIrous Podcast. I am really delighted today to have with us a tech visionary, Jaspreet Bindra. Many of you, if not all of you, would know his Tech Whisperer column. Jaspreet, welcome. I know you're joining us from Cambridge. I was gonna say sunny Cambridge, but, that depends on the day. So, welcome to the show.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Thank you very much, Srikanth And I'm joining you from the original Cambridge, the one in the UK.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:Yes. Thank you for joining us. You know, I was thinking about how best to introduce you, but frankly, you've done so many things over the last few years that for me to encapsulate that in probably a minute is almost impossible. So why don't I turn it over to you and maybe you can give our listeners a perspective on all the things that you're involved with?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Well, that probably will be the most difficult question for today, Srikanth just because I've done many random things over the last many years. But I had a corp I mean, I was with the corporate world for a long time working with the Tata Group as a part of Tata Administrative Services with Microsoft for many years. The group chief digital officer for the Mahindra Group eventually. And then, over the past 6 or 7 years, I'm much more deeply immersed in the knowledge in tech knowledge areas within technology, let me break that way, focusing off late much more on AI for obvious reasons. But otherwise, digital transformation, blockchains, AI, few others. I teach in a few places including at Ashoka, at Singularity University. I write on this very often as you mentioned in multiple places, newspapers, etcetera. I, speak and consult on these technologies, across the world. A few companies, speak quite extensively. And then I, wrote my first book, which was called the Tech Whisperer, which Penguin published, and my company in the UK is named after that.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:I'm actually building a small couple of companies. One is called AI and Beyond, and one is called Culture dot AI, which are on, increasing AI amplitude in a company as well as how to build an AI culture in a company. And then finally, I did my Masters. In my old age, I paid a lot of money to the Cambridge University to do a second masters in, yeah, in ethics, which I completed last year. And that's a particular that and Indian philosophy and how that plays into AI. Ethics is a particular passion area of mine, which is what I did my dissertation on. So, yeah, a bunch of things. I'm sure I've forgotten a few, but make what what you want off it.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:This is amazing. I think most people would take one of those threads and make it the quest of a lifetime. You know, staying on the theme of AI, In your case, I mean, you know, you've seen this both from a macro and a micro view. And, you know, it's hard to believe that we are just probably we're just over 18 to 20 months into it so give us your view of the last 18 to 20 months. I mean, the world has moved at a fast pace with this new technology or this new inflection point. So what's your take on what's happened?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Srikanth, actually, we've had decades of it. AI. You know? It's just that we've started noticing it 18 to 20 months back. The decades of AI actually started in 1956, you know, when the 4th AI was first coined in something called the Dartmouth Conference. And AI, which which is the umbrella term for machine learning, deep learning, neural networks, bunch of technologies, has actually been doing some wonderful wondrous things. Let me put it that way. Almost miraculously in, the last 60 years that it's been there even before ChatGPT came in. You know, the we've known of certain instances like Garry Kasparov getting defeated or the game of Go, the world champion or beyond fun and games, you know, how DeepMind has used neural networks and deep learning to, figure out how proteins would fold and molecular biology and, you know, and those things are actually, to me, the real miracles of AI. And we've been using it in enterprises for predictive maintenance and for routing algorithms and recommendation engines.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Nothing would work without AI. Our ecommerce would stop. Our logistics would stop. You know, social networks, perhaps, thankfully, would stop. And, you know, so a lot of stuff has actually been happening, but all of that, much like electricity, was in the background. And much like electricity, you only think of it when it's not there. No. But what ChatGPT did in, November 30, 2022, was the combination of a paper which came out of came out of Google, called Attention Is All You Need. And that invented a new form of AI, which we now call generative AI. That actually created something called the transformer algorithm, which created generative AI.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And generative AI is different. It's built on language rather than on, you know, mathematics or data. You know, it's mathematical, but it's built on language. And so it's cognitive. It helped there are only 2 species which are built on language, that and human beings. And so and, therefore, you know, it can do things much like what we can do. It can create, can be creative. It can generate images, visuals, videos, art, stuff which we thought only human beings would do. That was the first shock. And the second one was that it brought AI from behind the scenes with with only, you know, nerdy, research scientists or technologists using it to you and me and children and old people and everyone using it. Right? And so it brought it to our hands. And the 60 audios of work that had gone on suddenly came to us, and we were like, wow. And so the so the revolution was about bringing a new form of AI to the general world. Okay?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And and and and it and and secondly, it being created. And since then, obviously, no week goes by without something new happening. The base of innovation has been just, crazy. And the final thing I would say is that what is now clear, Srikanth is whether we sometimes get pessimistic or optimistic or jaded, by, all the new things happening. What is however clear is that it's the beginning of a new era.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:So if you start with the agricultural revolution, which shaped humanity, reshaped society, reshaped geopolitics countries, and then the industrial one, which did the same. And then the IT revolution, which did the same. And then the internet the the information revolution with the internet, which again reshape the world. Now we are at we are we are in the next the intelligence revolution, which is again going to reshape humanity, society, the world, industries, businesses. And, and we've just started seeing the beginnings of it. So the story is yet to unfold.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:Fantastic. I mean, sounds super exciting, but there are obviously a lot of people who are concerned as well, which we will get to. Because like you rightly said, that cognitive ability that AI has is something only humans have had on the history of the planet until now. So but going back to what you said, you're right. It has been a huge, huge impact. Let's start with businesses. Businesses across the world are trying to get their head around it. But, you know, how do you see businesses adopting this? And do you see any businesses or sectors that have probably adopted it better or are ahead in the race, knowing fully well it's still early days?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Sure. AI has been adopted by businesses for the last many years, as I said earlier. Okay? Whether it be in supply chain, logistics, manufacturing, ecommerce, you know, social networks, everything. With generative AI, because suddenly every CEO, every analyst, every board member started using it and realized that it's something profoundly innovative and different, that and and then, obviously, the hype that got created as it gets created with every new technology, has kind of the ratcheted up the the pressure, okay, that business leaders are feeling.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And and I see that. I mean, I must have met, well, 100 of CXOs in the last 18 months, mostly in India, but otherwise across the world also. And pretty much everyone is in this status stage that, you know, we we we need to do something. We don't know what to do, but we need to do something and tell us what to do. There are certain industries where the use cases are upfront and center right now.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Those industries are or functions are contact centers BPOs, IT, IT services, marketing and marketing related Functions and then Professional Services, Legal, Advisory, etc. These 4, in my opinion, the rest core manufacturing, you know, supply chain, etcetera, etcetera. While they will use AI, but generative AI, we still need to wait for a bit. So that's one thing that I would say. And the second thing I would say, Srikanth is that the most profound effect and therefore the biggest single biggest use case by a country mile for generative AI is how work will get impacted. Work, how we work. And work is a horizontal use case across everything. And I'm talking about white collar work. I'm not talking about blue collar work. And I can talk much more on that, but but because of us because of it being a cognitive technology, as you said, and it being therefore could be used, quote unquote, like a copilot with human beings, There is there is vast scope for a dramatic increase in productivity and efficiency of workers across industries.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:What people sometimes don't realize is that profound technologies actually impact productivity. The Gutenberg press, the Internet, IT, everything, they were all productivity enhancers. And productivity, as any economist will tell you, is directly proportional to prosperity and GDP. And so if if generative AI was to only do this, that it makes work faster, easier, cheaper across industries, and therefore more productivity efficiency, It could be a fundamental new technology rather than saying that how will it cut off 3% of my supply chain costs, okay, which might or might not happen. But this is the most fundamental part.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And that's a lot of area of my focus, okay, as we go forward and therefore how organizations would need to adapt, change their culture in profound manners, etcetera, etcetera. And the final thing I would say is that generative AI is real promise. Srikanth it's not a technology or a trend. It's a fundamental shift in how humans and machines interact or work together.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:Very helpful, Jaspreet. I think many, many key points there. Obviously, it fundamentally changes the way we work. It makes each of us, let's say, a very, very differently productive individual because we've got a copilot right next to us. But I even love the 4 key use cases you talked about, you know, customer service or contact centers.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:You talked about code generation, especially in IT services. You talked about, professional services firms and also legal firms and so on. So very clear use cases through all of those. Let me let me drill a bit into that. One of the concerns that on some of these use cases people have is, will this significantly reduce jobs? As you know, across the globe, contact centers are a source of huge employment because you need, you know, localization, you need understanding of the environment, And, you know, obviously, lots of people employed there. What do you think is gonna happen to that industry?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:So let let me just take 2 industries, contact centers and IT services because it's kind of good to kind of sometimes to, you know, juxtapose them and look at how. So contact centers, low end contact center work is gonna go. The the, need for contact center or customer service is not gonna go away. In fact, the need for customer service is only dramatically increasing every year. Customer service, most often, if I may say so, sucks in every single opportunity.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And so the need for even quality and quantity of customer service is only increasing dramatically year after year, because most companys, most industries are becoming service industries even if they manufacture stuff and the the old business models. And so one way to look at it is I have 200 people. Can these 200 people perform better and do more work than they used to do? And so can I use generative AI to enable them? That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is, can I just remove those 200 people and have, you know, generative AI do some kind of generated way I bought to kind of, replace them? I think a combination of both will happen. There have been instances closer home in India.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:There's Indigo, for example, which is a case study, which has recently rolled out something and is a case study on how a lot of level 1 customer service, almost 70% or 60% has moved to the bots. But that hasn't yet resulted in a loss of people because that's just, you know, removed a lot of level one work from them so that they can spend more time on the complex tasks. In the Indigo case, the objective is that how can these people work Yep. Work better. So it it will really depend on the geography, the world worldview, and, you know, how, you know, leaders look at this. Similar is the case in IT, IT Services, perhaps to a greater extent than even this. And my view, Shrikant, again, is that the demand for software in this world is infinite. Everything is becoming software. And every you go and ask any of your CEOs, you know, the people or CXOs or any of your participants in your course 900 or whatever number you mentioned. Okay. Ask them where their projects are stuck. I wouldn't be surprised if each one of them says at the IT department. Okay? Because that's where the bottlenecks are. Okay? And so, you know, what sometimes we're worrying about, things we don't need to.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:So, again, if you're an IT services firm, sure. Again, lower end stuff like payroll management, etcetera, might just go away. But that leaves plenty of scope to use the same number of people to to produce 5 x software. K? And and therefore, what it will do is 2 things. One, it'll separate the people who kind of move up this value chain from the people who don't. Okay? Because and and the second is that newer business models will get created where humans and AIs are working together rather than, you know, just humans or just AI, etcetera. And so we will definitely see a churn, but I don't see the industry disappearing and moving away from pure jobs to different estimates, 10 to 15% of jobs overall will go away to come across the world and across industries. But, every every technology has actually created net new jobs.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:I'll fix the numbers we don't know. We have never known with any tech. We don't know with this. And so net, there'll be more jobs. But many jobs which exist today, people will have to move to this reskill themselves and move to these new jobs. Or what happened with every industry will happen to them also, or every technology will happen to them also.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:So very, very insightful, Jaspreet. And what you said about rescaling is critical. And the other point you made is very valid that today, everyone is in some shape or form a software engineer. Because in the past, there was a clear understanding that technology or IT or software was the CIO's job. And I'm the business. We'll just provide requirements. They'll take care of it. But today, everyone needs to understand the implications of technology. One doesn't need to be an expert, but you need to know. So how do you see companies, sort of helping their employees reskill? And how do they find that balance between upscaling people internally and also finding the right talent outside? Because that talent is not easily available.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:You know, survey after survey, Srikanth, including some which I have been involved in, have said that the biggest barrier which CEOs companies see in adopting new technologies, especially AI, is skill. It's not cost. It's not availability of tools or technologies or whatever. It's actually people skills. If you look at it from an employee perspective, there's a very interesting, Microsoft and LinkedIn report which has come out recently. They they bring it out every year. You might know about it, which has come out recently where it's quite startling, some of the things. You know, 75% of employees have started using AI in companies where even AI is not allowed. Gen AI tools are not allowed. So, you know, ChatGPT is banned.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Okay? But and this new term, which I really liked, which is BYO AI, bring your own AI. Okay. Much like bring your own device or bring your own boost before that. Okay. Is is is is something which I, which got introduced to me. And a huge number of employees, I forget the percentage, greater than 50 are are doing BYOAI. Why? Because it helps them work better, but it's not allowed by the companies. And and also for the fear that if their boss knows that they're using some tool, you know, it's the tool which is working, and therefore the guy is redundant. Okay. The person is redundant. But this is in some sense, encouraging. But on the other hand, very deeply tragic. We have these very powerful tools, which every employee wants to use, but you as a company just cannot get around to making that happen.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And so I believe that, you know, therefore, you know, one is that you have to have ways to scale up, scale these people, whether you do this internally or you do it with external partners. And the second thing is that, the recruiters, of the same report says that every recruiter is telling, telling us that they're not gonna hire unless a person has some basic AI skills. And basic AI skills is actually about AI acumen. And AI acumen is not about knowing having technical knowledge of AI. It's about be using tools. Okay. And so and that is the other bit which, you know, you're you're gonna become unemployable if you're not being skilled or skilling yourself to, make this happen. So therefore, it's at both ends, from the employee end as well as from the company. And the company end, I think, is the culture. The employee end has to be, like, about relearning and reskilling, themselves.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:There's a particular quote to close. There's a particular quote, Srikanth about by a guy called Kent Beck. He's a very famous software engineer, which I really like. And he says something like it's a tweet. He says something like I was I never tried ChatGPT so far as I was a little hesitant. Today, I tried it to code and GitHub Copilot actually not chatGPT. And now I realize why I was hesitant, why I was reluctant. And he says the value of 90% of my skills has plummeted to dollar 0. Okay. But the value of the other 10% has gone up 1 1000x. I need to recalibrate.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And so we all need to recalibrate. And in his case, coding is writing code and thinking about, thinking about code and writing it. And it's the thinking which you can now do 10 x better, while the writing could possibly be done by someone else, you know, and so.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:No. No. Absolutely. In fact, you know, the focus on human ability, our aptitude is gonna be much, much more. I wanna touch on, you know, the the implications of AI. As you said, AI is based on sort of language models and large language models, which are, you know, we've got a few clear winners today. There are debates about will corporations use private models within their firewall or combined. But I just wanna go to a more sort of macro perspective. A lot of the stored data today in the world is very much in the English language because English has been the virtual business. How do you see that playing out?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Oh, that is a real problem, Srikanth. And and, you know, think of the Internet as a stored data repository. Okay? I think almost 70 or 80%, depends on who you believe, of the Internet is in English. Okay? And a lot of the rest is in Chinese. Okay? And so, so therefore, it's not only just the language. Therefore, it's also the context, you know, from where that data is coming from. And that obviously leads to bias and, you know, leads to, everything being developed in around those languages.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:So large language models are largely built on English. And the way that transformers are built are optimized for the English language. If you want to take Hindi data, data in Hindi, for example, and convert them into what are called tokens, which is what are used by large language models. It it actually takes 4 x almost 4 x more compute power to do the same work with Hindi language than with English language. And that's just the compute power.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And then there's, you know, obviously, the context of it is very different. Right? I mean, the way we measure land in English is in acres or square meters or square feet. In in in India, we measure measure it in cents or nullies or gigas or 100 other things, which, you know, ChatGPT is not gonna understand. Okay? Because it wasn't built with that context, you know, other than language.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And that's why with this very fundamental technology, this whole, quest for sovereign AI and how, every country must have its own. And, you know, France obviously has started doing that in French, and the UAE, the Abu Dhabi guys have taken a lead lead with Falcon, Jai's, etcetera. In India, as you know, various efforts happening both from the government and from the industry. So as to build this. But but while you can get compute talent while scarce you can get, I think the key is that there's only so much data which is available.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:No. Absolutely. But I did also, you know, hear from a few other people that if this problem is solved, this could be a quantum jump. Like, people say if you go back to India 25, 30 years ago, you know, most people did not have access to the phone. And then we made a generational shift from no phone to mobile phones, and we've seen the impact, the positive impact that single shift has had in the economy. So something similar in Africa with, AI used the right way at scale could be a significant shift in terms of lifting people out of poverty at a scale that was never seen before. That is a possibility. But we need to solve, I guess, for the compute power like you talked about and the data that's available.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:And that brings me to the compute power. You know, obviously, all these models are cloud hosted. We can see the impact, the positive impact on the hyperscalers in terms of their growth and their stock price, but this is a significant impact on the environment. How do you see that playing out?
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:See, AI, generative AI especially, is turning out to be an incumbent game, at least initially, rather than a disruptor game. And, you know, it's the incumbents just because of the sheer amount of compute power, the sheer amount of data and requirements and talent, scarcity are the ones which are kind of becoming $1,000,000,000,000 companies on the back of this new technology. And while all this is happening, you know, we forget many times that all of this runs on something called the cloud, which is not this fluffy white thing, but is actually massive amounts of huge data centers multiplying across the world, taking crazy amounts of electricity, spewing out massive amounts of carbon dioxide, and, you know, using, you know, millions and 100 of millions of gallons of fresh water. And not only the data centers, but the chips which power them. And so the environmental degradation, related to this is, is almost unbelievably worse than what we used to credit blockchain with or crypto with, for example.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:There are multiple estimates. Some people say that in the next few years, 4 or 5 till 2030, you know, data centers will take more electricity than the country of Japan, for example, okay, which is the 3rd largest economy in the world. And then that's and and the real crisis is actually not even the water crisis, it's not even the resource chip or silicon crisis. The real crisis is the electricity crisis. We will have to very soon choose whether, a nuclear produced electricity will be given to a city for its citizens or its data centers.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And so there are lots of environmental questions around that. And the sheer rush of, producing new models, bigger and bigger models, has actually upended every company's plans. Microsoft wanted to be net 0 by 2030. Google also something similar, but, you know, they're all kind of now all over the place. And and it's that irony is that AI was supposed to solve climate change, okay, by discovering nuclear fusion or something. And here it is adding to it. And that, it depends on I mean, the optimists, they look at it saying that, look, there's a blip, which is necessary to make intelligence happen, which can then help us solve for these issues. On the other hand, the others would say that, look, it's just gonna go, you know, all gonna go haywire. So it's a real issue. Good news is that people have started focusing on it.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Governments have started legislating on it. Green power is becoming more and more, critical. And all the large hyperscalers are actually committed, to, you know, be net zero and use green power. But many times I talk about the fact that it's not AI. It's actually the economic system behind it, which is to blame them. So the guardrails are not necessary for AI. Perhaps guardrails are for capitalism. Okay. To make some of this, some of this work out. Because the trend is irreversible and shareholders will want return. I, you know, I get that. So you the guardrails have to be capitalism, I guess. But that brings me to my, you know, next key topic. You know, you've done, you you've you've graduated in ethics around AI, at Cambridge no less, Jaspreet. So, you know, obviously, there are a lot of ethical questions. There are legal questions, but there are also ethical and moral questions about how we use it. Because like any technology, it could be used for benefit at scale for humanity, but at the same time, it has a very destructive power. You know, it it reminds me of Oppenheimer's lines from the Gita that he spoke when when the test was done in in the Mojave Desert. You know, exactly the same thing.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:So how do you see the ethics playing out? Because, yes, there is regulation in the US, regulation in the UK, in Europe that's been introduced newly. But as we know, most technology regulation plays catch up. There's a lot of self policing that needs to be there, and not everybody plays by any set of rules. So thoughts there would be welcome.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Well, so definitely there are ethical issues around AI more than many other technologies. The environment which we spoke about, there's issues related to privacy and bias. There are issues related to plagiarism and copyright. There is obviously this fear of artificial superintelligence and what it can do and whether it can be controlled. And so there are a bunch of ethical issues.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Since you talked about Oppenheimer, the the interesting thing here is that this is the second technology, only the second technology, where the creators of the technology themselves have been asking for, sometimes even begging for regulation. The first one was Oppenheimer and Nuclear Tech. The difference, however, is that in the nuclear tech, it took a Hiroshima to make that change happen in the creators themselves saying that, look, we've created a monster, probably a monster. And there's a lot of good stuff, but it's also a monster. And so, you know, we need to regulate. And so, therefore, the IAEA happened and the nonproliferation treaties, etcetera happened. Now one can argue whether that was good or bad. The good part is that so far, at least, there's not been another Hiroshima. The bad part is that if, you know, we got so fearful that we stopped nuclear producing nuclear power and nuclear energy, and therefore hasten global warming. Okay. And so a slow death trial and a fast one. Okay. So so it kind of both ways. And so in some sense, the good news is that while all these issues are there, and, yes, I agree that regulation always plays catch up. The good news is that in this technology, we seem to have hopefully learned not only from nuclear, but from another technology, which we created a cesspool out of which is social media. And, in social media, when social media was coming, did anyone talk about regulation for the first few years? No one did. Okay. It's only later on. Here, we have started talking about regulation right from the very beginning.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:And as much as there's a race to develop, new AI, there's also a race to build new guardrails or regulation or, our our our frameworks. And so, you know, there's some optimism, therefore. I mean, if I was to bring it home, if, you know, people who ask me that whether they can have their teenage daughter or son access chat GPT, can they do it? And I'm like, absolutely. Just keep them away from Instagram.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Yeah. And so, you know, because we have built certain guardrails here in most of the models, at least the non open source ones, which hasn't happened ever before. And so I do see some, ground for optimism. Having said that, I will not belittle the issues around it. There's massive all these ethical issues. But but there's a silver lining. And as as, you know, I I believe we, as humanity, will muddle through it better than we muddle through some of the other tech.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:Absolutely. Muddle through is the right phrase given where you're right now because I think, the UK muddles through most things. But, Jaspreet, this has been a fascinating conversation. We've gone across probably decades and centuries. We've gone across different topics all in the space of, you know, short less than an hour. So very, very grateful for your, thoughts and for your insights.
Jaspreet Bindra -Founder, Tech Whisperer:Thank you very much, Srikanth. It was great, having this conversation.
Srikanth Iyengar - CEO upGrad Enterprise:And that concludes another episode of the GenAIrous podcast. We are very grateful to our guests for their time and expertise. A big thank you to our producer, Shantha Shankar in Delhi, and our audio engineer, Nithin Shams in Berlin, for making magic happen behind the scenes. Join us next time, and don't forget to subscribe to GenAIrous wherever you listen to your podcasts.