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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Well, I am so pleased to welcome into the podcast, another candidate for the Episcopacy in the Global Methodist Church. Reverend Kenneth Livingston, who comes to us from the he's a pastor, in the Houston area. Kenneth, welcome to the Podcast.
Kenneth: Thank you, and I'm glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation and the opportunity.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely. Now tell us the name of your church, and tell us just a little bit about that before we get going. The official question.
Kenneth: So so that it's a so. The name of my church is Jones Memorial, the Higherway Church. I've been there 16 years. About 18 months ago I became the pat senior pastor, 2 other very small churches about 50 miles from my church, so I'm also the pastor of a little church with about 5 members, and another with about 60 on Sunday. So it's been a very interesting time in my life, but I don't want to say the big church without mentioning those other churches that I'm also the pastor of.
Andy Miller III: Wonderful. Yeah, well, that's great. So 50 miles away. So how are you working that? Do you have a private jet dropping you off? Or how's that going.
Kenneth: Well, one the main church, I guess the larger church is 39 miles from my home. The other 2 are 54 miles, so I'm kind of in the middle of those, and so pretty close to the freeway. And so you just get on and go. We're we've been circuit riders in the Methodist church for a long time. So that doesn't bother me.
Andy Miller III: Awesome. I love it. I love it. And certainly in the Houston area people are used to driving around. You know, you're used to that. Any sort of traffic you might get, I imagine getting the country is kind of a nice thing, maybe less traffic.
Kenneth: Exactly.
Andy Miller III: That's great. Well, Kenneth, one of the things I have is I I have a series of questions. I'll do my very best to kind of to interact with you along the way. But this 1st one, the 1st 2 have a timer on them. Because I I actually wanted to focus us as best I can in this time, so I'll do my best to do that. So my 1st question is this, could you just give us a 2 min version of how you came to know Jesus.
Kenneth: I came to know Jesus. Grew up in the church, came from a little town in northern Louisiana. My mom had us in church. I never remember not being in church, and so I knew Jesus in that way. But when I was a teenager I met a United Methodist woman who invited me to a United Methodist Church, and there I came to know Jesus in a different way. Was there that I
Kenneth: found and and understood that I was a sinner, and no matter how many good things I did in church that wasn't what God was asking of me. I heard language about repentance, and
Kenneth: and God would care for me, and love me, and change my life forever. I believe that, and trust put my trust in God, and so that that lay woman changed my life, and I can't meet Jesus Christ in that way, and I've done my very best to follow him and serve him in whatever ways I can. Since that time.
Andy Miller III: Wonder that was only 48 seconds. So you want to tell us about your call to ministry while we're at it.
Kenneth: Yeah. And and so I I've pastored for the 1st 10 years in our old denomination as a local pastor working full time at a paint manufacturing company for 10 years, getting off, going to the church, bowing the grass, cleaning the.
Kenneth: you know, changing out, doing all of those kinds of things. After about 10 years one of the district superintendents said to me, You know I believe you have some gifts. You should think about seminary. I did, and I had to go back finish undergrad. And in that time my wife and I had our 2 daughters, who are now 30 31 but went to Perkins, commuting back and forth along the way
Kenneth: just had this call that God was calling me in, and I wanted to be as equipped as I could be to serve him. And so that's been a part of my story serving in that local church, and that was by vocational pastor, and then later, as a deacon and an elder in the church, and just serving where? Where God has sent me. I've just been blessed to do that. It's my great joy in life. I love the local church.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. I imagine that's part of why you're since this call now. Interesting! That you you had to commute, and by vocational way. See nowadays with part of the Gmc.
Kenneth: So that's.
Andy Miller III: And just attended. Wesley Biblical Seminary.
Kenneth: There you go!
Andy Miller III: Could have kept you home, but you had all that time in the road to bring.
Kenneth: Absolutely.
Andy Miller III: Or something.
Kenneth: Wore out a few cars, I'm sure.
Andy Miller III: I'm sure.
Andy Miller III: Well, another thing that's important as we're moving into this new denomination. And it's emerging. There's a lot of questions that come up of distinctive. What does it mean to be even a Wesleyan Christian in this Wesleyan tradition? So give us a 3 min. This is my last time. Question a 3 min or less overview of what makes a Wesley and Christian a Wesleyan Christian.
Kenneth: Yeah. So we're part of this, the body of Christ. We're not a special group of the body. But these people who come to believe, in this kind of practical faith.
Kenneth: That, it's not enough to just have this head knowledge. It's not enough even to be in church and have great worship. This is really about, how do we live out our faith? And I think Wesley called us to that. But I believe some distinctive of that not, that is other other expressions of our faith. Don't believe these same things, or many of them believe, but belief in God is revealed in Scripture.
Kenneth: and most clearly in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus calls us to repentance, and for me repentance and discipleship are inextricably linked. And so I go to Matthew, chapter 4, beginning at verse 17, in my life, when Jesus starts his ministry, he says, Repent.
Kenneth: but the kingdom of heaven has come near, and then he starts calling us right. So for me, that sense of repentance that sense of alright, now that the kingdom has come, and that kingdom is found in Jesus Christ. How do I live that out? What is God calling me to do? How's God calling me to live our lives, and that in a very practical way. And so I'm a very hands on kind of preacher. I think that we have to model our faith.
Kenneth: I think a Wesley Christian is one who believes that God's grace is at work in and through the believer and that that's a very practical thing. So when we talk about the things that that we talk about often for Venia grace that God's grace
Kenneth: was there before I knew it, so that when I didn't know I needed God God knew I needed him, and and that God has reached out to me and called me as his own, and that that's available to everyone. I think that's a distinctive
Kenneth: way that we look at our Wesleyan faith, and of course justifying Grace. So when I was a younger. When I was a younger person, I thought in, well, if I just did more things in church, if I join more groups serve more came early. Stay later. God would be pleased with me. But finding this justifying grace that there's nothing I could do
Kenneth: that this has been. This has been this has been God's grace toward me. And so, when God says in Scripture that it was credit to Abraham that God has looked at my sin, and because of what Christ has done, I'm justified through it. So I could go through the sanctifying grace. And, by the way, for me
Kenneth: sanctifying grace is is the real deal right going on? The holiness, this this sense of of living our lives in a way that's fully conformed to God's will for our lives. So I say to my people, look, you know the words pretty clear. It's the Word of God, for the people of God. God wants us to live. It is not easy, but He left us the Holy Ghost. Let's work on this.
Kenneth: So I think those things holiness of life. You know I love worship, I love praise. I love those kind of things, but how are we living every day when we leave the church, and we go out into the marketplace and go out into the world. How do we live in that way? So those things being mission focused and I could go on, but I'm not.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: Time.
Andy Miller III: That's good. You're only 13 seconds over, and I gave one other person extra 15 seconds. So.
Kenneth: Lessons, through.
Andy Miller III: That's good. It worked out really. Well. What a great answer! One of the things interesting in this moment, and you you indicated how much. And I could just sense the joy coming through the camera. You talk about the local church, and your call is served there, and at the same time. Now you're in a position where you've been nominated to a leadership role in the global Methodist Church to possibly be a bishop. So why did you answer the call? Or why did you accept the nomination for this role?
Kenneth: So this really has to do with being a local pastor.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Kenneth: I was so grateful to be a local pastor, I mean, even when I was by vocation getting off work, going to the church.
Kenneth: being with people in those broken times in their lives, and the great joy to their lives baptizing. And I was just doing the work. I was just really oblivious to what was going on in the church around me, and it was this, sometime around 2,008 or so. It's as if I looked up and said.
Kenneth: What's going on? Where did all this stuff come from? I literally did not understand the General Church and the agencies and some of the decisions they were making. As I became aware of those things, I said
Kenneth: clearly, if we all got together and just opened the Bible and talked about this, we'd be able to come to an agreement. And so I became more active in the life of the Church, and ultimately serving as a delegated general conference. Those kinds of things. So it was really that sense that while many of us were just
Kenneth: in in our role in in doing the work, right, planting and harvesting that something had happened to the church. It was no longer the church that I remember, and so I thought it was important to try to help that, and so got involved along the way. So I've been really, really trying to lend my voice to what I hope would have been corrective for the previous denomination, but came to the decision that that wasn't going to be the case.
Kenneth: So here's kind of
Kenneth: I've never really been particularly
Kenneth: high on the bishops I've known I I mean we needed them. They were great, but I'm just working in the church. I see the Bishop at at annual conference. Not a big deal.
Kenneth: The reason I've come to this place is that my community asked me, okay. The people I serve with the the clergy and the laity to whom I've known for the last 40 years, have said to me, in different settings and situations, We believe you have something to offer the church, and it may be in this role.
Kenneth: And so, not knowing exactly where that's gonna lead us, we don't know what kind of bishops we're gonna have, what that's gonna be whether this is even what we'll end up with once we get there. But I prayed about it, and I don't want to be Jonah. I I don't want to run from what God has called me, though I'm not.
Kenneth: I don't. I don't have a sense of need to campaign. I don't have a sense of need. And, thank God, none of the nominees that I that I've sit with we're trying to. We're trying to stay away from that.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Kenneth: We can, but for me. Again. It was this sense that my community asked me. They knew my gifts. They knew what my passions were in the local church and doing those kinds of. And so that maybe maybe the kind of bishop we need now is really different.
Kenneth: Cause that kind of administrative temporal thing has no real appeal for me.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Kenneth: Life, and has not been where, where I've been gifted. So I'm also. Finally
Kenneth: I say this often to people I said, very few people when they talk to me, and maybe others about this.
Kenneth: Very few people ever ask, what does the Bible say about bishops and elders? Well, that's a book, right?
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: Well, what does it say in first, st Timothy? What does Titus tell us about those? And so I tried to look at my life and say, does it in any way look like that? And so for me, hopefully, it's in keeping with Scripture, my life and my ministry over time that those qualities that are listed, those gifts and skills are something that I've learned my experience in multiple churches. I've pastor in very large churches.
Kenneth: cross racial churches, small country churches, urban churches that maybe those experiences are
Kenneth: the experiences that we need as we move forward, and maybe not so much the managerial kind of of experiences that many people have been. So I'm just waiting to see, maybe, for such a time as this. But if not, you know, God's God still got, and there's there's nothing but joy. So kind of how I've decided. Okay. If if my delegation says.
Kenneth: then I want to trust that the Holy Spirit is working through them, and I should listen.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's beautiful. And I love the way you you're talking about. And as I've interviewed other candidates that they've generally said, Well, when I heard that this is what it was that it was that when it or when I began to realize that this is what a bishop would be, I could see how I could fit into that. And I I love that picture, and also just a word on the even my approach, because I've sensed that from all of you, that there is a heart that you have, that that isn't competitive or isn't
Andy Miller III: political in the sense of trying to campaign. I didn't want. It would have been a lot easier for me. Quite frankly, Kenneth, to do an interview where I'd had 3 at one time. Right, let's just get this over with it. I only have so long to publish these, but I I was afraid I I not just afraid. I I felt like a caution in my spirit in this, because I didn't want it to seem like this was a political debate, like, even if it's like, Okay, not attacking the other person.
Andy Miller III: Well, I said this. Well, he said, sanctification 7 times, and this person said it 2 times like we we don't want. I didn't want to be competitive, and I don't. I don't send a sense that that's going to be a part of the process. So I'm excited for you, and excited to hear your heart in all of this, and one of the things is interesting is that of course, there's multiple pieces of legislation. What might mean this interim? See this 2 year interim, Bishop
Andy Miller III: Piece might not even happen. We'll see. I'm I think I told you before we started, Kenneth. I I'm new. I wasn't from the G. Umc. Before coming to Gmc. And so then I became a delegate for the General Conference, and I didn't know I was gonna have 600 pages to read so that that's a whole nother story. But in that I I mean, I've seen these other other pieces other legit pieces of legislation. But the legislation that has a 2 year interim, Bishop, that you have been nominated for?
Andy Miller III: What do you think? If if that were to go through. What do you feel the assembly of bishops should focus on in this interim period to set the stage for what will happen then? In 2,026, with full time. Bishops.
Kenneth: So. First, st I think, that the assembly of bishops should be keenly attuned and attentive to general Conference and the voice of Church.
Kenneth: so that that assembly of bishops are not simply saying, Okay, we'll go now, and we'll figure out how to do this and what's best for the church that we really listen to the Holy Spirit in that place of holy conferencing, getting back to that. This really is a place of holy conferencing, and that
Kenneth: this is how we believe the Holy Ghost meets us right, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: Leads us and guides us, so I hope that that will will listen keenly to the directions of General Conference as as an assembly. I think also that it's really important for those of us who are who would be a part of this to recognize. The Church has asked us for 2 years. They've not asked us for 8 years. They've not asked us. They've asked us for 2 years. We want to do our work well, so that when the church comes together again in 2026 it's better prepared. It's adding more time
Kenneth: to think and listen and learn over that 2 year period of time. So I think in one way we are. We are means of the church learning in that 2 year period of time.
Kenneth: Do we need to tweak this, how should we tweak it? What's best for the church?
Kenneth: So I think that that's important. By the way, as you know, Bishop the the bishops who who come over from the United Methodist Church are experienced bishops. Bishop has never been on my radar, so I'm reading a lot about bishops right?
Kenneth: And their role. But I think this is a great opportunity to create a community of of leaders in the life of the Church
Kenneth: who will hold each other, accountable, as the general Church holds us accountable, the rules and and the parameters, that the general Church, we ought to hold each other accountable in in the ways that we can. But let me say a little more about that. I think we, that the assembly of bishops can make tangible what this apostolic
Kenneth: progression of the Church. E is that we really can model this. What it means to put the church first, st what it means to have a more robust connection 1st at the local church.
Kenneth: I think. If I want to go preach in local churches.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: In whatever area I I am in. I want to preach in the church is not just that. At an annual conference I want to go and sit down and and have revival and talk to the lay people not in a annual conference session, but just what's going on in your community. What's happening? How can the Church hear your voice? So I think that the assembly of bishops can look and say we need to be the connective tissue of the church.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Kenneth: Feel the power and love of God. I think we need to bring a spiritual focus to the Church. There are gifted people in our annual conferences. Who can keep the trains running on eye?
Kenneth: Who who can do that work? And that we should do as little
Kenneth: as is necessary from a temporal administrative response. So that if we're inspiring people, if we're reminding them of the apostolic faith, if we're encouraging them, and we're passing on to them the faith that was once handed on to us, that we're reminding them that saints we serve a resurrected Savior. We're not serving the institution kind of getting on a on a preacher ran here. But let me say, I think, that the assembly of bishops is in a position to rethink
Kenneth: what it means to be a bishop in the Methodist tradition to be a general superintendent who's concerned for the whole church. Everywhere the global church that we have no preference for hemisphere. We have no preference for money. We have no preference for how long you've been here.
Kenneth: and a willingness, I think, to model what it is. The whole power.
Kenneth: but be willing to let it go. So I think this 2 year interim is a really good thing. I I am 62 years old.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Kenneth: And in fairly good hell. Love preaching every single Sunday 3 times a day can't get enough of it.
Kenneth: and if if I were elected, I'd be 64. Hopefully, I'm still in Great Hill. I have no desire to be bishop. Beyond that.
Kenneth: the Church. The the question that I hear is, can you help us over this period of time.
Andy Miller III: That's what the.
Kenneth: Ask of us, and if that's what we come to the General Conference and says, what we're asking is, be a bridge force for 2 years. That's what I'm signing up for, and I think we have an opportunity to model that and listen to the church and what it's whichever direction it chooses to go.
Andy Miller III: This is a functional question. So would you then? In your in your case, like some of the other candidates, have have recently retired. They're not serving a church. What would happen to the churches that you're serving if you were elected to this 2 year role.
Kenneth: So my intent is pastor. The church, as I, pastor right.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: In in a in a, in a new way. I have great staff, executive pastors and preachers.
Kenneth: It will. It will call for me to let go of some of the other things that I do other than the church that, I think are really important things. But doing this 2 year period of time. I'll need to set those aside. I'd be working with the lay leaders in our church to maximize the use of my time. To look at how we do things better. But I think, as I look at most of of the bishops who are there
Kenneth: that you can do that. By the way, when you look at the the Pan African Methodist churches, when you look at the Ame and the Cme. All of their bishops, pastor churches. And so this is some. This is some something has never happened before. I think we've gotten so used to residential bishops and all the trappings that go with that and all of the responsibilities. But if we have.
Kenneth: and I believe we will, if we have excellent Conference superintendents, yes, of presiding elders, or whatever we end up calling all these people after we leave annual conference.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Kenneth: We empower our laity.
Kenneth: and the bishops can be bishops of the Church from a spiritual perspective, and it won't take as much time. Now I know I'm underestimating that I'm sure hope is. No, I'll I'll continue to pastor and serve the church as a pastor of a local church, and still visit the sick.
Kenneth: baptize, buried love, and preach. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: And Amen. I love.
Andy Miller III: I like how you highlighted in in this, in this role there would be like you wouldn't just be over one conference, there'd be multiple conferences that you could serve in this role. And one thing is interesting in that. And I like that. You said the connective tissue. I think that that's what we've realized. I think, as I've been attended a couple
Andy Miller III: annual conferences in different conferences, and I've been at the say I happen to be at the ones that Bishop Scott Jones has served in, and in those situations like I've just noticed like, Oh, well, there's kind of a coming together
Andy Miller III: under the Gmc. And under this bishop, who who does maybe doesn't know all of the appointments in this area, right, and doesn't know, submit, but but I do know that the President pro temps do, and hopefully they'll they'll have a new, a new title as well so like in that. I think that's 1 of those essential characteristics.
Andy Miller III: That can come. And so I'm excited by what that can be. Any anything else you want to say about that about the the connective role that the bishops will have.
Kenneth: I absolutely. You know, we all we often talk about defending the faith contending for the faith. I think that is clearly the role of of bishops in the life of the Church, and has always been that. So I think that that's really important. I think the teaching role and and using the technology that we have. you know, I'll I'll have to become a podcaster and those kinds of things. But I think it's really important that
Kenneth: the Church and that means from the pulpit to the pews. Here's the voice of the bishops in the life of the Church, and what we believe about the the very real things that are happening and going going on. And so so again, I think that that's really important. I also think this connective tissue is to remember this in 1st Corinthians, chapter 15. As you know, when Paul is talking to the church in Corinne, where there are people there who don't believe in the resurrection right there.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Kenneth: They don't believe in the bodily resurrection. And Paul says.
Kenneth: What what are you talking about? If there's no resurrection.
Kenneth: I think it's so important for bishops to remind the church of the main things. Yeah, the things that make us who we are and to remind, as you travel through the conferences as you're having revivals, as you're meeting with the clergy, as you're talking to laity, that you're reminding them of the things that make us Christian that make us followers of Jesus Christ, and then the distinctive as of being Wesleyan, and how we live that out, and how important it is for us to live through that. So I think.
Andy Miller III: Man. That's good. Good.
Andy Miller III: Now you've already said something to this, this next question that I think indicates where you are on this. But I I just love to hear you articulate your understanding of the inspiration and authority of Scripture. And why that's important for this moment in the Gmc.
Kenneth: Yeah. So, Andy, I said to you, I was just going merrily about my business, and I woke up and heard, like what
Kenneth: I there were people who didn't believe the Scripture I was like, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Gossips.
Kenneth: They're bishops.
Kenneth: and their leaders are like, No, get out of here. That that couldn't be the case. How could that be the case? Well, it was the case. And so I think
Kenneth: that
Kenneth: our unwillingness, and to
Kenneth: place Scripture as primary over our lives.
Kenneth: our experiences are really important. They are real. I don't deny anyone's experience. They are valuable. The things I've learned, all of those things are are important, our knowledge, but Scripture is the one thing that teaches us the truth, and I believe the truth of God is found in the Word of God. Now I know this sounds obvious, but
Kenneth: we're not even talking about Jesus without the Scripture. We're not even talking these things. If there's not the Word of God, so either we value it as the truth of God for the people of God. It's just something we say, and word of God for the people of God. Then we move right on as if it's not. I believe there's the Word of God for the people of God, and that it challenges us that there are places in Scripture that I read, and my mind will I like right? So
Kenneth: One of the things I I shared. I think I shared this, maybe at Truett a few weeks ago with a group of of clergy who were there. So there are a lot of Scriptures that that cause. Well, you know slaves obey your masters right right, you know. Well, hey, let me tell you.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: Alright. So when I read that word, so what do I do with it? What do I do with that word? Do I simply dismiss it and say, That's not, that's not there. It's not as inspired as well for me as I teach my people what is the clear, consistent witness of Scripture?
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: Clear, consistent witness of script is that we we serve a liberating God. We serve a God who came to set the captives free. We serve a God who says, Receive him back no longer as a servant, but as a brother in Christ. And so, when I look at the clear, consistent witness of Scripture.
Kenneth: I can work my way through those things and let Scripture still be supreme in how I live my life. Now you I I tell people you know the Scripture says the word is God. Breathe.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: And for me. I think about the creation.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: All of that creating until the breath
Kenneth: nothing leaves. We don't become living beings without the Spirit of God. And so the Word of God for me is the Spirit of God blowing new in my life, and energizing me as I struggle with it. What does it mean to be faithful to the Word of God. And I do believe that exactly what's in the word, that it is good for rebuking and correcting and encouragement. That's okay, and that we ought to. We ought to
Kenneth: want to submit ourselves to the Word of God. Yeah. And that means robust discussion. It means robust conversations about what does that mean?
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Kenneth: We understand it. So I believe in all of those things, but I also believe
Kenneth: that we're sinners.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: And the Word of God makes that clear.
Kenneth: And if I didn't have that, I would think you know.
Kenneth: Yeah, I'm not that bad, probably an 80 or so, you know. I'm probably not a hundred. But I'm not as bad as somebody else, and that's okay. The speaker tells me that's not good enough. So, anyway, I probably over answered that.
Andy Miller III: That's good.
Kenneth: Scripture Scripture is for me primary, and how we do our life together.
Andy Miller III: Are you comfortable with the language of inerrancy at Wbs? We say it's without air, and all it affirms, that's kind of we use. The Chicago statement is that is that something you're comfortable with.
Kenneth: Yeah, i i i am comfortable. It's in Erin, and all the and all that. It affirms. Not that I affirm.
Andy Miller III: And Amen.
Kenneth: Not that I affir. And so when when we talk, when we talk about in arising, you get in some ways done these rabbit holes and things about. Well, there are 4 corners to the earth.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: Alright. Well, you know. Okay, if that's the argument we're having, you know.
Andy Miller III: Where do you add it?
Kenneth: If we're not really gonna go through it. But it matters of truth and life between God and humanity and the creation. It is the true Word of God for the people of God.
Andy Miller III: Amen. And so that's what we affirm here at Wbs. It's just been a part of our history to use that language, and I know some people have come from different environments where that makes you seem like whatever a fundamentalist is that you're a fundamentalist. And I think any of our students, and any of our Biblical studies. Classes know that we, like bring all of those literary tools to help us understand what God has communicated. But essentially, God hasn't made any mistakes, and all that he's trying to do in the world.
Andy Miller III: and how he's revealed himself so like. So I love. I love hearing you say that, and I know it needs a little bit of parsing, but so does the Trinity. So that's good.
Kenneth: Let me go!
Andy Miller III: So there, there's a lot of things again. You've had. I love hearing all of your experiences at different at these different types of churches, but, as you know, in leadership, and I served as a lead pastor for 15 years. A lot of times. Churches have to unlearn things before they can learn what they need to do. What do you think the Gmc might have to unlearn in order to be what God's called to be? And then also, what do we need to learn.
Kenneth: Yeah. So I think one of the things that I'm hoping we will unlearn is this this fixation that legislation can lead us to fruitfulness.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Kenneth: So in our previous expression, the book just got thicker every 4 years, and so we fuss and fight over exactly the right language to control this or make that happen. So I think we need to unlearn that in in some ways to make sure that we're not making Robert's rules equivalent to the Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Hey! Man!
Kenneth: If we get Robert's rules right? Then we've done our work. Yeah, sure, I think it falls short and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: You'll have to have space for the discernment of the spirit. And so that if we have someone in our gathering who doesn't know Robert through the water. But surely that's the spirit of the Lord speaking? Could we not listen? Could we not hear? Could someone who knows the the robbers language. Put it in that language, if that's what we need.
Kenneth: But yeah, yeah, you you. So that that idea of your motion wasn't correct. It's so you're out of here. Right? So I hope we unlearn that. And I I hope we also unlearn this fascination with the with the power of bishops that bishops somehow can solve our issues, and that if we get the assembly of bishops together they'll bring us some word from on high.
Kenneth: and everything will be okay. So I hope we will unlearn that. And I'm hoping that those persons, and whatever manifestation we choose to have, bishops, will will remember that
Kenneth: I also hope we'll unlearn this dependence on a centralized and distant kind of leadership, so that all of these general agencies that we're doing these things for.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Into us. Right, they said. Oh, here's here's what you should use. Here's
Kenneth: the local church knows what it needs. The local church knows what it needs. And so I hope that those who are in leadership will say, we're here
Kenneth: to resource the local church, and we're we're not going to think of what they need. We're gonna listen to them and hear what they need, and then use the resources that they are providing to help that. So I think that that's important. And this is kind of again, my language about a lot of things. We're gonna stop thinking that busyness is somehow redemptive.
Kenneth: that just having a bunch of stuff that we can put on our websites and all of the meetings, and all of this, that somehow that's redeeming the world. Well, in reality the Church was shrinking while we were doing all those busy things, and so I hope we unlearn that. And then, in terms of learning that I think it's important. We need to relearn that people need Jesus.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Need to be saved.
Andy Miller III: Man.
Kenneth: They need to be saved, not not just equipped to to run organizations, not just equipped to do good things.
Kenneth: We want to do good things.
Kenneth: but we're called to be an evangelistic people who
Kenneth: look around us and say
Kenneth: that God has so loved the world. How best can I share that love with others who don't know this Jesus Christ. And I hope we'll learn that that's really the core of what we do is telling people the good news again, repent, for the kingdom has come. Amen. And what a kingdom! What a god we serve! Right! And I. So I have this passion
Kenneth: that because God changed my life, and it was through love, and not retribution or wrath. It was through the love of God that if I could share with folk the love of God. That's not an attractional love, not a wishy, washy love, not a love that lets me do whatever I want to do in any kind of way, but the kind of love that will transform my life.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Kenneth: To be more like Christ. That that's what I hope we learn as as we move forward.
Andy Miller III: That's beautiful. I I love. I love the idea of like the agencies moving down and like working with 3rd parties. Now it's easy for me to say that, because I'm 1 of those 3rd parties. Right? Yeah. But at the same time I think there's something beautiful to it like it's no, it's not like what Ronald Reagan said, like the closest thing to eternal life, is a government or agency, right? And the same thing can be true with the church like we want. We want to have groups that are fitting with the mission, and who God's called us to be.
Andy Miller III: And I love the thought, too, of just thinking like churches are shrinking like we need to be aggressive
Andy Miller III: with bringing the gospel to the world, and honestly just trusting that, as you said earlier, that God's convenient grace is going ahead of us, and that that feeds into my next question, which is about evangelism.
Andy Miller III: There are approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Andy Miller III: How would you give voice to this crisis and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive to the need to bring the gospel to the world.
Kenneth: Yeah. So I think one bishops and presiding elders and pastors need to become more
Kenneth: relying on the Bible.
Kenneth: Yes, than on programs and
Kenneth: out of the box things that will help you grow the church. I'm not opposed to those things. I'm sure people have prayed of those things. But we need to go back and say, What does Matthew? 28. Tell us the great Commission says, where to go. And so I want to remind people of of what the Bible says. Right? We want to hear some more people who've been inspired to say.
Kenneth: Lord, here am I. Send me. I am willing to go well, it takes inspiration for that to happen. People have to see the power of God happening in the local church and in their communities, and then we have to give people. This is old language, but we have to give people a burden for the lost.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Kenneth: Give people a burning burden for people's souls, and make that acceptable again in the life of the Church, to say to people, You need Jesus for eternal life. Eternal life is in Him and Him alone, and I want to live in eternity with you, and I want that for you, and I can love you and not demean you or send you to Hades on, you know, an express with an express ticket.
Kenneth: So I think it's really important for us to bring back this sense that evangelism is essential. Remember, this word means
Kenneth: the gospel, the good news, so to to say, to lay people. You don't need to be able to quote Scripture. You need to be able to tell your story. What has God done for you in your life, and let them know that that story is shared by
Kenneth: tens of others, hundreds of others, and one by one you have an opportunity to say, Well.
Kenneth: why is my life different. Well, it's not because, I grew up in the right neighborhood I went to high school. I met Jesus. What would happen when people say, you know there's something about your life and you, and and say, What school did you go to? Where are you from? No, I met Jesus. That made the difference. Right? That's an invitation to talk about that. So I think that that's 1 of the things we can do. I think another thing we can do evangelistically
Kenneth: is help our congregations
Kenneth: not to simply focus on themselves and their in the health of their congregation, that every local church has a responsibility to the whole church, to the whole church. That's what makes us connectional. And how do we use our resources to take the gospel everywhere? And, by the way.
Kenneth: how do we start bringing evangelists from around the world to America?
Andy Miller III: Bad.
Kenneth: We need to bring the people where the church is growing the fastest is not America. So we need to bring some of these people who are on fire to America, and say, What is it that the Holy Spirit is doing in your life and in your heart, and in your setting that we might learn from you and move back. And so I think bishops can use their their their platform
Kenneth: to. To speak to these things, to show that I would hope to have revival in every area.
Andy Miller III: I love it.
Kenneth: It would freak.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Kenneth: Would say tonight. And, by the way, at the end, how many people tonight will give their lives to Jesus Christ?
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Kenneth: People tonight will give their life to Jesus Christ. Tonight. Today, in this place we preach with no anticipation or expectation that the word is going to do anything but stir up the people who already know Jesus. I'm like, well, let's preach with the idea that there might be somebody here today.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So again, those kind of things, preaching and modeling, and trying to inspire our people, because I do think in some ways bishops need to be more, I mean, in mlk's word, drum majors for the Gospel.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Kenneth: I'm majors for the Gospel kind of out front.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely.
Kenneth: Come on now, let's let's go get! Let's go get this world. It's God's world. Let's do that.
Andy Miller III: Now I love what you said about having a revival, and then like calling people to repentance, calling people to repentance.
Kenneth: That's right. Okay.
Andy Miller III: I'm gonna add something there. And this might even my next question, what would that be like then? Also to add something that seems to be missing a lot of churches calling people to full time, or by vocational ministry, too. I I think out that because I I've
Andy Miller III: been around a lot a lot of churches now, just in where I am in Mississippi, Western Tennessee. And the same time, I just wonder, man, when's the last time that anybody in this congregation heard a call to vocational misery. Now I'm thinking about that because I want them to come to Wesley Biblical Seminary quite frankly. But tell me about that like is that something that should be a part of these type of gatherings too.
Kenneth: Yeah, I think everyone and I'm glad you you reminded me of this. It's 1 of the sad things in my heart.
Kenneth: I remember the excitement I had. I was 2 weeks short of my 23rd birthday when I got my 1st appointment in a little 4 Member congregation, and it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Man, I thought, oh, my God, I'm pastor! I can't wait to get to this church. And I was pastoring every other Sunday, right.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Kenneth: $40 a Sunday every other Sunday, and I went to them one day, and I said, You know, I just can't do this.
Kenneth: I can't pastor every other Sunday. I'd like to come every Sunday. Well, they thought I wanted more money. Right? I said, Oh, no, it's the same $80. I just I want to come every Sunday. So that excitement that I had young people in our church.
Kenneth: I think, have seen our fussing and fighting for the last 50 years.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: My churches are set.
Kenneth: I don't want any part of that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: But I think it's really important for the global Methodist Church to restore the joy of our salvation, to restore the joy of the call to the Gospel, and when we gather an annual conference, when we gather at revival, to ask that question, to ask annual conferences, what are you doing
Kenneth: to advance this call local churches. And and then, by the way, helping local church, some local churches haven't had anyone called a ministry in 30 years. They don't even know how to do that right? So how might we help them understand what that looks like?
Andy Miller III: And absolutely. And then when they have that call, you can say, and I know a great seminary where you can go west.
Kenneth: I mean.
Andy Miller III: Yes, Edu, commercial in the middle of my interview. You can't help it. Okay? I mean, what on that? I mean? What do you think, what do you think is important about theological education in the life of the global method church? I mean, we have opportunity to may fix some challenges here as well. I mean you and I both went to Perkins. I've been to Asbury now. I'm at Wbs. There's a lot of different opportunities options. But what should it look like? Who should offer? I mean, these are big questions we have to answer.
Kenneth: Yeah, that's a part of the thing that remembered earlier. When I said I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know our seminaries were being hollowed out. You'll remember I shared with you the 1st 10 years of my ministry. I was a local pastor, so I wasn't going to seminary, and and so I I didn't have any clue except we did course of study in the summer. Right? We would go and do the local pastors thing. And so our seminaries have become places
Kenneth: rightly where we think critically about our faith. For sure it also become places
Kenneth: that in many ways have become echo chambers for the culture around us. Yeah. And generations of clergy who went in and came out shaped by those, and were so distant from the local congregations and the need of the church on the ground.
Kenneth: Yeah, we need seminaries who are gonna understand that your primary text is still Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Great writers, great theologians, Augustine, great Guy, great Guy Jesus, right? And so the word of God, and so that our seminaries need to be steeped again in the work, and I know they're not Bible colleges.
Kenneth: But this Word of God needs to permeate where we are. I think we ought to also recognize that the seminary, at least from my perspective, should know its task, is to prepare preachers to go back and preach the gospel.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Kenneth: That's our task, to to prepare preachers, to be well equipped, to go back and not just take academic, but be able to integrate that knowledge in the life of the setting that God has placed them in. And so I think that we have that responsibility and that the global Methodist Church needs to be very careful who we align ourselves with.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Align ourselves with. As we look toward educating the clergy in our church, and I think, as more of the people who come in. Our expectation is that when you leave this seminary, right, you're going to be better equipped as a witness for Jesus than when you walk through these doors, and if we fail that we fail the Church. So my hope is that we'll we'll have that kind of heart and passion. And
Kenneth: and again, this idea. I don't believe. Who am I? But I don't believe that we need to go and say, Let's let's go start a global Methodist
Kenneth: seminary. I think we should say.
Kenneth: who can we align with? Theologically? Yes, we can say, this is our heart, and how do we support them? And so we are grateful for Truett. Right? We're grateful for Wb. We're grateful for those places that we found partnerships with, and that we found believe the Word of God. And but at the same time are willing to have that robust conversation about our state that keeps it new, and keeps it moving forward.
Andy Miller III: I think you were to talk to any of the students here at Wbs you'd be people be. Oh, very well aware of the fact that we are not shallowing the the create, a shallow experience for people. They are being challenged to think deeply and biblically. And that's part of why we have that at the heart of our name is that we use the inductive Bible study method as our hermeneutical foundation for moving forward, and so like that has got to be at the foundation at the same
Andy Miller III: same time, and my goal is not to create scholars. Now we have some great scholars who come through Wesley Biblical Seminary. I hope to catch a few scholars along the way.
Andy Miller III: but my job, our job, is to serve the Church. We want to develop trusted leaders who are ready to serve faithful churches in all sectors of the world. So that's a that's the key. And and one of the things that we've taken on is one of the reasons we've been able to have more than 500 global Methodist church pastors come through our our classes. We have 400 right now. Is that we wanted to listen to you. We want to listen to. We looked at the trans transitional book of discipline.
Andy Miller III: said, this is what this church is now saying. We'll see what happens after September. But this is what they're saying we need. Well, let's see if we can provide that as opposed to us, thinking that we're the ones in the expert seat to be able to say, All right, yeah, church, you need to listen to us, and that that's what can happen. When we get into a tenured process we get a well endowed school, and we have something similar. What happened with United Methodism?
Andy Miller III: All right. One more question. I am interested in in thinking about what the global Methodist Church can offer. The broader, classically evangelical world. What is it that what is the kind of the accent that the Gmc can bring to the greater evangelical community?
Kenneth: Well, I think
Kenneth: a humility.
Kenneth: I hope that we, as a denomination, will have a humility about who we are and who we're called to be an open hand to other believers across other Christians across the world. Recognizing that God has different work for us all to do
Kenneth: much like 1st Corinthians, you know different gifts, but the same spirit of God having an ecumenical heart, but one that will not see that ecumenical heart as our goal that that becomes no matter, we just want to fit in.
Kenneth: but at the same time not wanting to be an island unto unto ourselves. So I think that that's really important for us to share with others. And so I want to go back. I said something earlier about this kind of practical holiness that I think it's always been a part of who we are. So in some ways
Kenneth: to say to others
Kenneth: in my heart.
Kenneth: When I'm talking to a person, I said, Hey, you know this isn't as hard as we make it to be.
Kenneth: Love the Lord with all of your yourself, and when you know more about him, love him more
Kenneth: do unto others as you would have them do unto you to serve others, love others, and if we do that as a denomination.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Kenneth: Then I think we can practically help the Church not get so caught up in councils and other things that are important.
Kenneth: But how do we live this out? How do we have lay people who don't have a clue about that stuff right? They're trying to live this faith out every single day. I think the global Methodist church has the ability to do that. I also think that because our goal is to be global.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: We have an opportunity to show what that really looks like in in a different way, that it the Church. There's a gravity toward being us centric.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Kenneth: Because we have the money, we have the resources. We have all of those kinds of things.
Kenneth: We're going to have to make the decision that money's not the most important thing.
Kenneth: and that's a hard and difficult thing to do. It's a difficult thing to do, and when we say money is not the most important thing. Then we have to live that. And if we can do that in the global Methodist church, I think we help the whole Church. See that! That is a real
Kenneth: possibility, and not simply a part of what we say, and I think that will then help the rest of the world to really trust the whole church and not see the Western churches. Well, there's they're declining, but they really make all the decisions they really set the pace for us we've got. We can do better than that. And I hope the global Methodist church wheel.
Andy Miller III: Kenneth. It's been a real delight to meet you and to spend this time with you. I appreciate your time and the energy you have for this moment in method is it's real exciting to me, I mean, it's it's these type of things. And and even the structural pieces that you've mentioned about our polity and the the nature of what a bishop can and should do. That's part of what drew me to gold Methodist Church, and that's like that's I. I know
Andy Miller III: I I come to it differently, like I come not with the scars that people have from the Umc. But at the same time, I I and I don't. I don't think we want to pull other people from other traditions, my situations
Andy Miller III: distinct, but I think it will be appealing to other people, and it's a part of what I think God's doing in the world altogether. I'd love for you to if you have anything else you like to say. I want to just leave it open. We have a couple of minutes. Is there anything else you you didn't say that you want to add.
Kenneth: I. I am just grateful for the Church, and I trust the Church. I trust that God is working through the Church. As I said earlier, I'm grateful, my delegation. Who would think of me and say, Hey, we think.
Kenneth: but I trust God in all of this, and I think that the other nominees and others who have come along.
Kenneth: I want to remember. I think I put this in that little thing. We were supposed to write this little song I that the Church would sing. I want to live so God can use me anywhere, anytime. A lot of ways of saying that.
Kenneth: But that's my hope. For whoever is chosen as bishops, that we really just want to be used by God, and whether that's in the front of the class or in the back of the class, whether that's changing oil or driving a race car. Who cares? We're all on the same team of Jesus. So thank you, Andy, for giving us this opportunity. A lot's going on. Time is so compressed for everyone and for you to take this time to help us share a little bit of who we are with others. I am appreciative, so thank you.
Andy Miller III: It's my my honor and privilege. I appreciate your time today, Kenneth.
Kenneth: Blessings to you, my brother.