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We all know that choosing a college is one of the biggest investments your family will ever make, but it doesn't have to be the most stressful. Each and every episode, we pull up a virtual chair to cut through the jargon and tackle the real-world questions about admissions and finances and even the financial health and viability of colleges.
Gary D Stocker (00:01.089)
You are listening to the kitchen table college chat with
Gary D Stocker (00:12.387)
You're listening to the kitchen table college chat. Hi everybody, I'm Gary Stalker, alongside my co host Mark Debore. And you know, Mark, when I say alongside, that's not really true. You're on the East Coast, I'm in the mountains. So I guess I should say I am electronically alongside you. But as always, a pleasure to chat. And even I know that this c choosing a college is is a is a big and a tough decision for so many families, and it's stressful.
Marc (00:14.53)
Okay.
Marc (00:24.898)
Okay.
Gary D Stocker (00:39.061)
you and I make the argument that it doesn't have to be stressful because there's perspectives that you and I and others can offer, and that's what we do on this show. We provide perspective. You may say, I hadn't thought of that before. You may say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, but nonetheless, we provide perspective that we don't think is offered anywhere else because we realize colleges have a responsibility and maybe they're not always honoring that responsibility. So Mark, we pick a theme each week. What theme do we have this week?
Marc (00:55.117)
Well, thank you. I also pulled up my digital chair to sit next to you. Today is who is responsible for a student's success. Now, when I think about that, we have to divide it into buckets.
And I think, you tell me if I'm wrong, I think there's three buckets here of the who. There's the parents, there's the colleges, and there's the students. And by parents, we can also say aunts and uncles, grandpas and grandparents, guardians, anyone who is superseding here. The parents often believe, if my child gets into a college, the world is great, everything is awesome, the college will take care of the rest, I did the hard part.
Gary D Stocker (01:37.155)
Yeah.
Marc (01:52.243)
I raised them to 18 years old. I did it. I changed all the diapers. I am going to help them set their wings free and off they go. I did it. The colleges, they say, hey, look, you're paying your tuition. We will happily take your money. We will provide all of the resources you need so long as you just put the effort in. Just do your part and we will give everything. And then the students, they say,
Gary D Stocker (01:53.049)
Ha.
Marc (02:20.671)
I just got to figure this out as I go along. I just got to show up. I just got to do it. But at the same problem though, when everything's go bad, you you think of that Spider-Man meme where Spider-Man's pointing fingers left and right at each Spider-Man. You know, it's everyone's pointing fingers at, know, when everything's goes bad. So here's what I'll say to you. My first question, Gary, when a student does great, everyone cheers.
You know, and I think of that as like graduation, right? The student walks across the auditorium and then the president is there, the provost is there, the faculty is there, the parents are there, the student is there, high fives galore. And that's great. And everyone gets all this success. But now let's look at the opposite. When the student fails, who gets the blame? Who should get the blame?
Gary D Stocker (02:54.734)
Yeah, yeah.
Gary D Stocker (03:19.405)
Well, a a couple of ways to look at this, Mark, from my perspective. And then let's let's talk about first. I'll answer a question. don't always do that, but I will this time.
Marc (03:30.41)
Very nice of you.
Gary D Stocker (03:31.575)
That that's you know, it's so many folks think it's the college that matters. And and there's a general consensus among higher education professionals, not universal, that the college you choose doesn't matter. Like you just said, the effort the student puts in and the involvement the student puts in is really what matters in the college process. It's not necessarily the college. And yet we have scenarios in this industry, in higher education industry, where success is
Not it's not dual noted, and I'll I'll tell you a story. we talked about this a while ago, but I I did a LinkedIn post this past week, and it talked about how some 1179 four year public and private colleges don't graduate their students in at least four years. So almost 1200 colleges don't graduate students in four years, and Mr. De Boer.
Marc (04:22.707)
. Okay.
Gary D Stocker (04:28.949)
Every single one of them is accredited by their regional accreditors. And so it it begs the question certainly the student has some responsibility, certainly the student has some culpability, but if colleges aren't graduating half or more of their students, I can make a logical argument, Mark, that that the colleges are the ones that are significantly impeding the student success. And I'll give you an analogy. You colleges year and a gym, I know.
Marc (04:47.979)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (04:57.635)
Colleges like running a gym. They give you equipment and classrooms and books and computers to use. And the and the college provides facilities and trainers in the form of instructors and teachers and opportunities, clubs, sports, all those kinds of things. But the student at the end has to do the exercises. They have to do the push-ups and the sit-ups and the burpees that you and I teased about before we got started. But but I make the case that the colleges aren't fulfilling their responsibilities in
Marc (04:58.86)
Thanks for your attention.
Marc (05:19.674)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (05:26.669)
Forty I think forty only forty three percent of colleges graduate students in four years. So the rest are not fulfilling their responsibility in developing sitmark systems and processes to get students from day one to the end of year four.
Marc (05:35.659)
I mean, it's easy. And I agree with you. It is easy to pick on colleges because they're the big bad wolf here. And I think you're right. They have a lot to improve on. And I get that. But the same token, how can we measure, from our outside perspective, not being an internal employee, how can we measure the success? That's the wrong word. How can we measure the effort?
input of the students to accurately say that, it is the college's fault because I got Jimmy, Johnny and Joey over here in the library every single night. And it's, I don't disagree with you. think you're right. But at the same token, we're also giving a lot of credit to the student saying, yeah, they're definitely showing up and they're working hard and they're definitely not partying.
Gary D Stocker (06:30.051)
Well, I'm going to verbally slap myself upside the head because in my previous comments I was engaging in gross generalizations. And I I pick on people for this all the time. You just can't live with gross generalizations. And let's let's not lose sight of the fact that each and every year there are millions of college students doing the work, getting it done, and graduating in four years. That's just it is. college is is a is something you want to do.
Marc (06:40.328)
Yep. Yep.
Gary D Stocker (06:59.287)
But what I worry about is there are those millions of other students who colleges necessarily market to to get them to go to college because the students because logical argument, the students they are marketing to meet their budget numbers in too many cases are not academically nor financially capable of fulfilling their responsibilities in higher education.
Marc (06:59.424)
Yeah.
Marc (07:07.647)
Yes.
Marc (07:24.97)
Yeah, and I would also add to that a third prong, especially if the student is a first-generation student. You can still be academically ready, you can still be financially ready, but if you come from a first-generation family, that student will need additional resources to push through on college. yes, but I want to go back to the original question. Who is responsible for a student's success? The next part, so we talked about kind of the who.
the parents of college students and we started to dive into that a little bit, but we also have to dive into the word success. What is success at a college? Now, this was a debate I got into with many a times with faculty where I would say, what is success? Is success the act of graduating saying you've done it in whatever four years or six years and you've received your diploma.
Is the act of success getting a job with said degree? Or, to what the professors would say to me, the success is my ability, the professor, to do a transference of knowledge into your brain, pass the test. You are now smarter, and I can document that. That is a success. How do you define success?
Gary D Stocker (08:44.857)
Well, you know, Mark, I'm gonna have to find a different partner to do this show. You you you a you ask you ask way too many hard questions. Of course I'm teasing teasing about that. And it's a good question, and you can you can hear me pausing for those listening to the show today, to to ponder that. There's no way to look around r to answer that without con including both parties. Students have some responsibility.
Marc (08:47.816)
It's getting harder!
Ha ha ha!
Marc (09:03.207)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (09:13.613)
Colleges have some responsibility. But let's go back and look at those numbers. If Mark Deborah University is graduating 70% of their students in four years, and Gary Stocker College is graduating 35%, that tells us something. That tells us Stocker College ain't getting it done in terms of developing the systems and processes, and that includes recruiting students capable of completing the college completing that college degree. Now you bring up good points.
Is it is it the post-college job? Is it the compensation associated with that? Yeah, I I would argue it's it's it's not mine to define because you know, mine why you know I'm a medical laboratory scientist by training. Long, long time ago, my first job was in a medical laboratory in the early 1980s, six dollars and seventy-five cents an hour to save lives and cure diseases. Now I'm being somewhat facetious when I say that, but from six dollars and seventy-five cents an hour that provided
Marc (09:52.843)
Yeah.
Marc (10:12.633)
it.
Gary D Stocker (10:12.767)
A career that I was in and to and out of countless times that was successful. But that's my definition. You know, my parents may have said, Well, Gary, you didn't grow up to be a doctor. Well, probably not smart enough. probably didn't have the financial resources to do that. But everybody defines success in their own ways. But these colleges who can't graduate students, they can't say they're successful in the overall scheme.
Marc (10:19.081)
Okay.
Marc (10:31.272)
Thank you.
Marc (10:38.669)
Yeah, and I agree with you. I think the right answer is it is unique and personal to every student and it's a parent's job to sit down with their student and say this is what success looks like in our family. Every family is different and there's no right or wrong answer and it's unique to that and it's ultimately the student's job to communicate that to the college saying this is what success will look like for me. It might be being a star D1 athlete
With a 3.5 or greater GPA with good job prospects after that's okay. So I agree. So let's go now to the, started to transition a little bit to the colleges. So here's maybe an easy question. but I, I need to soften it up for you a little bit, you know, it, I mean, this one's more for the parents who are listening. Do you think, or do you know?
Gary D Stocker (11:21.056)
I hope so.
Gary D Stocker (11:25.377)
I'm an old guy on this name of microphone, Mark.
Marc (11:36.328)
colleges, do colleges oversell how much support students are actually going to receive once they enroll in that college? And this is for the parents. Give the answer to the parents.
Gary D Stocker (11:48.867)
Well sure they do. Because they will offer a standard line that is very difficult to refute. yes, we have a student services, yes we have counselors, yes we have tutors, they're all available to your child. But I would go back to that graduation rate. You know, you and I like to say we we all and we do we offer guidance to parents and I I'm not sure I would look at student services and that whole definition of tutoring and that stuff as
Marc (12:10.087)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (12:17.461)
A college selection criterion, I will look at the outcome. I will look at that four-year graduation rate. If you're if you're if the college you're looking at, pick two colleges, I gave you the example a minute ago, is graduating 35% of their students. Be careful. Be really, really careful. If they're graduating, you know, and I think 50% is a low number, but if they're graduating more than 50%, you've got something to work with because it shows that they've got some semblance.
Marc (12:19.879)
Mm.
Marc (12:32.571)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (12:44.117)
of systems and processes to get your child through from day one to the end of year four.
Marc (12:49.023)
Well, as per our last episode, maybe DeBoer University is doing better because I have a billion dollar endowment. Unlike Soccer University, which is not doing so well.
Gary D Stocker (13:00.761)
Yeah, and then there's and there's and there's no question in this day and age that financial resources comes into play on student support. and yeah, and that's why, you know, one of the tools we have is the college viability inspection report. We look at the finances, we look at the endowment, we look at how much money is spent on students as opposed to administration. And it's yes, if if if your college has a my minimum threshold of 50 million, that's probably too low. But if your college has a th an endowment of fifty million, hundred million,
Marc (13:05.787)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Marc (13:19.356)
Yep.
Okay.
Marc (13:26.917)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (13:30.753)
They've got some runway, provided they're not spending a lot more than they're making each year. But if your college, you know, there's a college that closed recently, Anna Maria. Their endowment was in single digits. Mark, that's not even college couch money. You cannot survive, you have no margin for error. And Anna Maria a few weeks ago announced his closure, and that's another factor that parents should consider. Look at the finances and we have those tools available.
Marc (13:38.182)
Okay.
Marc (13:43.665)
No.
Marc (13:52.647)
Yep. Yeah, no, I agree. So let's go, I want to go back a little bit to your analogy of essentially saying it is the student's job to put the effort in. And so with that, do you think, and this is perhaps a quite a controversial question, have we created
We being probably your generation, not my generation, maybe my generation, have we created a generation of students who are less prepared to handle the independence that college requires for you to be successful?
Gary D Stocker (15:09.505)
What was the question? I missed missed the question.
Marc (15:12.422)
Uh, better now. can't, I couldn't hear you before. Uh, so, so it's, what I'm looking at is, you know, it's perhaps different between your generation and my generation is, and looking back to your original comment of the gym analogy and that ultimately the college can provide all of the weights, but the students need to lift the weights. Have we created a generation of students who arrived less prepared to handle the independence
Gary D Stocker (15:14.866)
my god.
Marc (15:42.265)
that you need in order to be successful out of college.
Gary D Stocker (15:47.641)
Well it's certainly possible. It is certainly possible that we have done that. I'm not smart enough to know how to fix anything like that. But certainly w you can make a logical argument and and fair pushback to what I'm saying about colleges being responsible could be, hey, the moms and dads you talked about at the top of the show, Mark, aren't doing much more than raising their children with food, shelter, clothing, those kind of things. That's a tough argument to make as well.
But n but nonetheless I keep going back to that there there are millions millions of college students who are successful. But sadly there are millions who are not. And those are the ones we're talking about, Mark.
Marc (16:23.109)
Yep.
Marc (16:29.251)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's, we have found a little blame on students. We have found a little blame on parents. maybe a little bit blame on the college. but you know, really dig a little bit more into the students. It's for me, it's, it's, you know, I want to think about really, you know, has the student really received and or learned.
the habits and behaviors, or is it the college's responsibility? I'm now that I'm thinking about it kind of out loud. Is it the college's responsibility or the parent's responsibility to teach the habits and behaviors that will separate the students who will thrive versus the students who fall off the wayside? Is it the student's responsibility to learn it? Should the parents have taught it in those 18 years or is the college basically assume, Hey, you don't know what it takes to know academic rigor at the college level.
Gary D Stocker (17:28.099)
And I would guess that would go back to how many generations of how many generations your family have gone to college. Those that know how to prepare their children for college do. Those that don't know how don't. And then that's that's a social challenge, that is a cultural challenge, that's an economic challenge that is is is beyond me, is probably beyond you as well. But it goes back to the fact of making the best decision for your child.
Marc (17:49.166)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (17:56.683)
And part of that decision process is should my child, as much as I love them, as dearly as I love them, should they go to college or not?
Marc (18:05.411)
Yeah. Yeah. And so interestingly, like, so here's another good hard hitting question for you. And my last one for you, relative to being hard, can a really good school and that's just called the good ones, right? Harvard, Yale, Duke, MIT, you know, the top of top top can a really, really good school with all the best resources in the world be a bad school for the wrong student? If, if, if a wrong, if this
Gary D Stocker (18:12.033)
thank God.
Marc (18:34.212)
a student just ends up going to the wrong school, but that school has everything. Can it still be the wrong school and maybe not the student's fault?
Gary D Stocker (18:40.915)
yeah. I've read stories about that. The students have chosen those top fifty, top one hundred colleges, and they were unsuccessful, unhappy for lots of reasons. So sure it happens. you have to wonder how they get in in the first place, 'cause those folks the acceptance rates are in the low single digits most times. But certainly that happens. Certainly that happens. So moms and dads, grandpas and grandmas, aunts and uncles, you know, think about how you prepare
your loved ones for the college experience. Those that do know how do and those that don't, don't. And that's one of the reasons that we're here with the podcast, Mark. And and we'll continue to be here. And as we've said before, in the coming weeks, we're going to move to a live stream to answer your questions live. In the meantime, if you have questions, comments, concerns, drop me a note to Gary, G-A-R-Y at college viability. That's one long word. Gary at college viability dot com and we'll work them into the show.
Marc (19:11.615)
Okay. Okay.
Gary D Stocker (19:39.893)
So for Mock DeBore, I'm Gary Stalker. Thanks for making time to listen to the Kitchen Table College Chats. We'll be back again next week.
Marc (19:39.95)
So.