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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Pinaki Kathiari (00:00)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Between the Seasons, the mini series from Why Does It Feel So Wrong to be Human at Work. I'm your host, Pinaki Kathiari and as always, I'm joined by my host, Chris.
Chris Lee (00:10)
What's up everybody? Hello?
Pinaki Kathiari (00:12)
And of course we have our producer, Bree, with us today.
Bree Bartos (00:16)
Hi everyone.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:17)
joining us today is Dr. Matt Zakreski Dr. Matt is a clinical psychologist at the Neurodiversity Collective. For this conversation, we're going to go deep on, talk a lot about personality and what it's actually like to be neurodivergent at work, because I have this inner feeling that we kind of all are in some way or another. So ⁓ Dr. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today.
Dr. Matt (00:40)
it is my great pleasure to be here. mean, what a cool like I love when I get to step outside of my field and talk to people in other fields were real change makers because it's like, you when you go to speak at a mental health conference or an education conference, it's a little bit preaching to the choir. It's like, yes, we are here at this neurodiversity conference to talk about neurodiversity, but to talk about that business world, you know, in in user in real life. I mean, like this is where we affect really big change.
Pinaki Kathiari (01:01)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. This is where we like put it into practice and like, and, I appreciate that because like you and I met at the transform conference last year and that's an HR conference. And you gave this talk on the spectrum of strength and, ⁓ supporting neurodivergent employees. And it was one of the most moving talks that I've ever been to at a conference because not only was it interesting, I, love psychology minored in it, but I'm just like,
listening to you and I'm thinking, wait a minute, is that me? Is that me? So it just kind of gave me honestly like a whole new look at myself in that way. So really appreciated that very much. And so thank you for being on this show today.
Dr. Matt (01:50)
I mean, that means the world to me. It's everybody I talked to while I was there. They're like, wait, you're a psychologist. And then I would tell them what I did. They went, it makes sense that you're here. I'm like, exactly. Like we're on the same team. You there. The the fit isn't quite as obvious from the surface. But when you go a little deeper, you learn everything you need to know.
Chris Lee (02:10)
I was thinking, I almost feel like when you think about the state of mental health today in general, I think there's actually an outsized portion of it where just the nature of work, the nature of corporate culture plays a really much bigger role in that than I think a lot of people might even realize in terms
state of mental health is today. And I, you know, this is why I was really looking forward to this conversation, Matt, because I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, what is the role of the workplace in, exacerbating, people's vulnerabilities in mental health and that sort of thing. And so I think I just have so many questions. Bree was saying this just before we started the show as well. was just.
We're just, it's such a fascinating area and it really cuts to the core of why Pinaki and I started this podcast in the first place.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:07)
Yeah. So, Dr. Matt, let me ask you this. just for folks who are not as familiar with neurodiversity and whatnot. So when someone outside of psychology asks you what you do, how do you typically like explain it to them?
Dr. Matt (03:20)
⁓ I've been practicing my elevator pitch too. So this is good. So broadly speaking, one fifth of people are neurodivergent. That means that their brains are measurably different in some way. Now there's obviously a certain amount of difference between it with what we call neurotypical or brains that largely do what they're supposed to do. But these are brains that we can measure. Like this thing is working more than we'd expect it to or less than we'd expect it to is
Pinaki Kathiari (03:24)
Nice.
Dr. Matt (03:45)
quantifiably And the world is built for and by neurotypical people. Right. So, you know, the example I often use for this, right, is like, Chris, if we were hosting a dinner party, right, and you have 50 people coming, what would you make for 50 people for dinner?
Chris Lee (04:03)
Pizza.
Dr. Matt (04:04)
Right? What that
Pinaki Kathiari (04:05)
that's what I
Dr. Matt (04:06)
answer? so I'm like, okay, that's great. By the way, I'm bringing my sister in law who's gluten free and vegan.
Bree Bartos (04:14)
I am gluten-free and I still thought pizza.
Dr. Matt (04:17)
Well, I mean, listen, I do all the cooking in my family and for our extended family, we I'm cooking for all sorts of different palates and sensitivities. Gluten, the gluten free pizza now is actually palatable. Ten years ago, it was cardboard. It was like cardboard with like white goo on it. Now I'm like, OK, I could actually eat this. This is pretty great. So you're not. So if I bring my sister in law who's or if we bring Bree who's gluten free, are you going to throw all the pizza away, Chris?
Bree Bartos (04:20)
Yeah
Pinaki Kathiari (04:25)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (04:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (04:32)
Mm.
Chris Lee (04:47)
No, of course not.
Dr. Matt (04:48)
Right. You'd have something else on the table that we could eat. Right. So when we talk about an inclusive culture, we talk about, I'm not asking you to throw away the pizza. I'm asking you to make sure there's something else on the table. Right. And this is when, you know, people ask me like, well, if what you do is just about this group of humans, isn't that exclusionary? I'm like, well, no, because what the research tells us, and this is true in school and in mental health and in the workplace.
Chris Lee (04:51)
Right.
Dr. Matt (05:16)
neurodivergent practices are what we call universal design. What's best for these people are actually just best for everybody because we name more things. We make more unspoken things spoken and we set clear expectations and we get out of each other's way. And there's this beautiful thing that like, if you have a dinner party and there's intentionally to Bula on the table and salad and meat lovers pizza and cheese pizza and cheese list pizza, then
everybody's welcome at that table, right? Inherently, we've made the place inclusive. And that means that we have more voices and ideas and perspectives at the table. We have a richer and better conversation rather than like, you know, to lean on an easy example, I was just speaking at a college. So this is top of my mind, you know, had the frat over. It's like meat pizza, please. and light beer from Philadelphia. Right?
Pinaki Kathiari (06:09)
hahahaha
Chris Lee (06:04)
Yeah.
That was me in school.
Dr. Matt (06:11)
I like,
I'm like Sigma Pi and like...
Chris Lee (06:13)
Yeah. ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (06:13)
Hahaha!
Chris Lee (06:17)
You
Matt, you said something that think probably inherently we probably all thought about or deep down we kind of understand. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about this. So I love what you said about, you know, the world is built by neurotypical people. know, Pinaki, you and I, we've talked a lot about, you know, even just for example, starting even from the school system.
right? Where clearly the education system is tailored by neurotypical for neurotypical people. And it sets up for an environment where you get into a working system that again is built in design. so, know, I Bree you had mentioned that you're neurodivergent and Pinaki, I think earlier on in our podcast, I joked that I self-diagnosed as ADHD. And of course, since then,
I've been formally diagnosed as having ADHD and it really, you know, and I've worked with therapists and it's just, it's really opened up a whole world for me to better understand and accept who I am, what my gifts are that I bring to the table. And also just being smarter about understanding my role and not always trying to shove like a circle peg into a square hole or whatever the cliche is. So one of the things that I think about Matt is
So many roles are built and designed with some level of rigidity and probably thinking about it as being a neurotypical design type of role. And I think about so many roles I've had in my past in my career. And I definitely have shortcomings that start to get exposed over time within roles. And I love your perspective on if you could give advice to employers and leaders.
on sort of rethinking fundamentally what organizational design looks like to better accommodate for all the different gifts that people like Bree, Pinaki, myself might bring to the table, but it just is a better setup as opposed to the cookie cutter approach that is kind of common today.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:32)
Besides bring all different types of pizza into them. Lots of pizza, lots of
Dr. Matt (08:34)
Yeah, lots, lots. Yeah. It's a party for everyone.
Chris Lee (08:35)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Matt (08:37)
So if we think about it this way, because I mean, this is why I'm here. This is why we're having these conversations as a corporate culture. And certainly as schools become more corporate in their worldview and their ethos, we tend to focus on deficits, right? You you might have an employee on your sales team who is he's the glue of the office, right?
He remembers everybody's birthday. He brings in baked goods. He buys girl scout cookies. He's you know, he's always organized in the company. Happy hours. He's the star kicker on the company kickball team, right? Then you know, we'll call him. We'll call him Steve. Steve glue the office sales goals aren't great, right? Not hitting the sales numbers. So you fire him. And you think to yourself, OK, well, Steve's a great dude. But he's not making his numbers now. We have to now have to deal with the company.
corporate fallout for getting rid of Steve, people are sad, we have to spend money to hire a new Steve, right? And then maybe Steve takes his institutional knowledge to another competitor and now they're doing better there. If you got a Steve, the best question is what is Steve's skillset? What does Steve do that nobody else can do? And how do we amplify what Steve does? So I love to tell the story. So I was a bartender in my 20s, as many people were.
And I like I love craft beer, and I can make a really good cocktail. But I couldn't really do that at speed. Like if you ever watch bar rescue with you know, like I'm not tafferman I can't do I can't do like I, I'm gonna craft it, I'm gonna take my time, but it's gonna be delicious. Right. So I worked at a really high end joint, where it was like if you're pouring a Johnny Walker blue, and it's $55 a glass, you're gonna pour that proper.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:15)
Mm-hmm
Dr. Matt (10:28)
Right. There's a technique to it. Right. I wouldn't do well at an Applebee's where it's, all about volume. Right. So my skillset makes me look great in one environment and would look to Chris to anchor what you said. Impaired another environment. Right. So when we talk about neurodivergent employees, the environment is the intervention. So maybe we move Steve from sales to marketing. Maybe he's customer relations. Maybe he's HR.
I don't know, but you could have that honest conversation with Steve and say, listen, man, sales doesn't work it out for you, but you're a rock star. We want you in our team. So let's have an honest conversation. What else do you see yourself doing here? And Steve's like, well, I've been working on graphic design in my spare time and I think I could change the logo. It's like, dude, welcome to marketing, right? Like, yes. And that's the, I mean, that's the idea is like, we have to train ourselves to search for strengths and center those strengths, not be deficit detectives.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:14)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (11:25)
Because there's always going to be stuff that we we zig when other people's act. There's always going to be things we don't do well. I mean, I am a great psychologist. I would probably say I'm an average, maybe below average, small business owner. I'm not great at the nuts and bolts, the PNLs, but I hire people for that. Right. And so if you have an amazing employee who is disorganized and has poor executive functioning, it is cheaper for you to hire that person and assistant than lose that brain power.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (11:55)
And that's how we change corporate America to serve more people who are going to be your internal rock stars.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:03)
That's right. It's just
doesn't it seems like it's just there's so many things to unpack there, but it's like one like the core of it is just not black and white. Like it's not like kind of an on and off switch. point that I want to drive home in this episode is around neurodivergent. One of the things that I remember learning when I heard you speak was when you talk about neurodivergence, it's not like a choice. It's actually
When you talk about brain, it's actually like a physiological change. And I just want to see if I could get your perspective or say that or make sure that I got it right, just so everyone else is realizing that this is not a choice.
Dr. Matt (12:40)
so I'll tell you a funny story about neurodivergence. So I have a, I have a colleague who has that genetic abnormality where she tastes cilantro as soap. If you're really breezy, like know exactly.
Bree Bartos (12:51)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:52)
Hmm. I've heard
Chris Lee (12:53)
I have that,
Pinaki Kathiari (12:54)
of that. I've heard of that. Yeah, I've heard of that. I don't have it, but yeah. Yep.
Chris Lee (12:54)
I have that. Yeah, I've got it. Yeah. Yeah, I have it for sure.
Bree Bartos (12:55)
I don't have it, but I know it.
Dr. Matt (12:59)
So
we had, so we were, we were at a conference in the American Southwest and our hosts took us out to this lovely dinner, local Tex-Mex food. mean, it was fresh and green. They were picking the peppers from the backyard. mean, it was, and so my colleague is sitting there and she looks like she swallowed a lemon. And at one point I pulled her aside. like, are you okay? She's like, you don't taste the soap? I'm like, no. And I was almost like, oh my gosh.
you have that genetic abnormality. she looked, I called her a mutant from the X-Men. like, like, I was like, no, no, you can't like, I taste cilantro as a yummy herb, you taste it as soap. So this food that is covered in fresh cilantro, it tastes gnarly to her. That's not a choice, right? She didn't wake up in the morning, like, let me offend our guests. That sounds great. That's good business practice. Right? So we're able to let, I,
Pinaki Kathiari (13:32)
Hahahaha
Chris Lee (13:32)
Yeah.
Dr. Matt (13:55)
quietly asked the host if like, is there something that doesn't have cilantro in it? And you know, there was some roast chicken that she ate and then all of a sudden she lit back up, right? Now she's having a good time. She's enjoying herself. And so it's, you know, it's one of those things that when I talk to schools, I always show them this one slide of an ADHD brain versus a neurotypical brain. And the prefrontal cortex, the front part of our head is where our executive functioning skills live. And in brain scans, the lighter the color,
Pinaki Kathiari (14:03)
Hmm.
Dr. Matt (14:24)
the more it's working, the darker or bluer, colder the color, the less well it's working. And on ADHD brain scan, neurotypical brain, it's green all the way across. In ADHD brain, it's dark blue, it's light blue, there's yellow. And we can literally point to this brain scan and say, this is the part of the brain that's not doing what it's supposed to. This kid didn't wake up in the morning and choose to forget their homework or choose to shout out in class. But because we're all so overwhelmed and stressed and we have this
Chris Lee (14:37)
you
Dr. Matt (14:54)
implicit understanding that we should just follow the damn rules that we blame the person for the behavior, not the system for the behavior. Right. And that's right. If I took Chris's glasses off or Bree's glasses off, I'm like, why can't you kids see? I mean, I'm, you know, I'm handing them and blaming them for that problem.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:58)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (15:03)
Love that.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yeah, you could see short, right? You could see things, but you can't see brain.
Chris Lee (15:14)
Now Matt, you know...
Dr. Matt (15:17)
Yeah. Right.
Chris Lee (15:20)
Yeah. And Matt, I was thinking about, so I love what you said, Pinaki, even though actually it was Matt that said it originally at the conference, but this idea that neurodivergence is not a choice, but I think neurotypicals don't always, they don't understand that. So a leader will say, like, why is this expense report late every single month or whatever? Like that's me.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (15:44)
always late with it. It's not, it's not for a lack of desire. It's just the way my brain is wired. It's something.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:49)
Well, it's an expense report, first
of all? We're all delivering them late. Why don't you deliver yours on time either? Because I'm sure they did it. Anyhow, sorry.
Bree Bartos (15:51)
Yeah.
No one wants to do that.
Chris Lee (16:00)
But the point is, I
always wonder about this, which is I think, Pinaki, in a smaller organization like Local Wisdom, where there's a lot more flexibility to make strategic pivots, to be able to really capitalize, for example, Bree's immense gifts, and then also be able to complement other areas and just making sure that everything fits like a glove at Local Wisdom.
for a larger organization, much more, a bigger structure in terms of corporate, they're much less agile to be able to do exactly what you're saying, Matt, which is like, ⁓ you know, it's just easier and it's cheaper to just hire an assistant to cover off some of these things, or maybe to reallocate different parts of roles, things like that, which I've, from my perspective, I absolutely see the merit in that, but do have any advice in terms of how you
can effectively socialize this with leaders where, well, we don't have budget for that, or this is kind of how we structured it, because you're right, it is a neurotypical world. It's been designed by neurotypicals. And to even make these kinds of changes, it's one thing for them to understand the merits of the argument. But then how do we start to move down that alley of, well, this is kind of how we start to engineer change so that you're actually getting the best of all your people?
Dr. Matt (17:28)
Well, there's, if people are talking about budget stuff, one, and this is a free solution. All this costs you is a table, which you probably already have. So when you have people with weaker executive functioning skills as a general rule, neurodivergent people have weaker executive functioning skills. There's a phenomenon called body doubling. And the idea is that if I share a space with you, the weight of your presence in that space gets my brain to do a thing.
Right? So a lot of times my therapy sessions with my clients are like, you've got a paperwork to finish. You've got an application for grad school. got to do, dude, I got it. I got infinite paperwork. We're just going to sit here and we're going to do the work together. Right? So you could have your sales team call it, call it expense report happy hour, right? Have them work 30 minutes. Their weight collectively anchors everybody.
Bree Bartos (18:10)
Yes.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:10)
Wow.
Wow.
Dr. Matt (18:23)
They do the thing, you give them a big reward. Maybe it is actually happy hour. But then, then that costs you $0. That doesn't cost you an assistant, right? Which you obviously could do, but that's the thing. It's like, if we, my entire therapy ethos boils down to one sentence, which is be curious, not furious. Right? So if Bree's my employee and Bree is constantly seven minutes late to work.
Chris Lee (18:24)
Mmm.
Dr. Matt (18:52)
That's insubordination young lady. Get the hell out of my office, right? I mean, like, so I'm curious, Bree, what's getting in your way? And it's like, I have to get this very specific train, but I gotta get my kids out the door in the morning or traffic's really bad or, or, or, or, right?
Bree Bartos (19:09)
Usually it's her right there, that dog.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:12)
Hahahaha
Chris Lee (19:12)
you
Dr. Matt (19:13)
real diva moment. You know, and we love that for her. So it's like, okay, great. So listen, then we're just going to write your contract that your workday starts when you walk in the door. And then you work your eight hours from when you walk in the door to when you leave. Right. And that costs you $0. Right? I mean, this isn't a cruise ship, right? Where if it leaves at noon, and Bree shows up at 1230, well, golly gee, we're leaving her on the dock. Like, so it's this idea of
Bree Bartos (19:29)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Matt (19:43)
We are so penny wise but pound foolish. We constantly cut off our noses despite our face. I have more cliches I can use, but the idea is curiosity leads directly to compassion, right?
Chris Lee (19:56)
Love it.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:57)
Absolutely. That's
the best way to kind of address it, I think, too. And I have to wholeheartedly applaud you for so many things that you've said. And again, you've kind of like hit me on a personal level because I often like want to like co-work and co-create with people, but not everybody is like that as well. So I have to kind of like realize. And that's the thing. Like you kind of like talk about neurodiversity as a superpower. I 100 % agree. I've been kind of thinking a lot lately.
that I think diversity in all forms, including neurodiversity is a strength. just like in your presentation, in the title of your presentation, it says it's a strength. And I also think that diversity in a group setting is difficult, right? I think it's easier if we all just, we're all the same, all the puzzle pieces would fit together and stuff like that. But at the same time, think sameness drives weakness. You don't see the different parts that
are vulnerable, for example, or things like that. So I think it's very necessary. And Chris, what you said is it's still not easy at local wisdom, even though we're small, because I do believe in very different people coming in, bringing different perspectives. But we often come to this place of, I'm looking at it this way, and you're looking at it this way. And you know what? Neither one of us is diagnosed as neurodivergent. But we could be, and it's possibly.
Chris Lee (21:00)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:18)
possible we're in a spectrum of something. As my last question there, any advice for those two people who are like, they're kind of looking at it from a different perspective to how to engage that conversation because it starts turning into like, this is my way, this is my way, this is my way, this is my way. And then it's more defensive instead of opening and being curious. So even to try to go from that defensive to curiosity, any advice there?
Chris Lee (21:29)
you
Dr. Matt (21:45)
So, and I mean, I, this is of, this is the human part of working, right? Like we can't forget the human part of human resources. And I'm going to set this up by, by telling a, telling a story. So I used to teach at a small college in Delaware and it's called Goldie Beacon College. It's a lovely little school. And I was teaching a business psychology class. So it asked these 30 some odd students, what would you change about Goldie Beacon? Right.
you know, let's make a list, right? There are no, no ideas too big. You want to live in mansions on frat row. I don't know who's paying for it, but somebody might get some of that NIL money, I guess. I don't know. Right. So it's like, give me some of that. So and Goldie Beacon is a school that has a lot of first gen college students and has a lot of transfers. So the kids who had started at Goldie Beacon had very specific granular ideas. One kid was like, I don't like the brand of ketchup we have in the cafeteria. And I thought to myself,
dang, that's not wrong, but also that is so small. I don't like the brand of bolts we use in the beams. Like, ⁓ sure, bro. The kids who are first-gen college students and kids who transferred in, they were like, why doesn't your college have X? Like, why doesn't college have a swimming pool? Right? And all the kids suck, because they didn't know what they didn't know. The power of diversity is that it brings in those perspectives, because what is obvious to me,
Pinaki Kathiari (22:48)
He
Uh-huh.
Dr. Matt (23:09)
may not be obvious to you. You know, I worked with a, an organization once and it's just a very simple thing. They had one of those, like, could build, make your own, uh, name tag generators ready for conference and stuff. They didn't have a tilde in their thing and their Hispanic employees were like, this is low key offensive to us. Like I have to go in and draw the tilde myself, but they had never thought to code that into the system. 10 seconds to code that in.
Pinaki Kathiari (23:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (23:38)
But somebody had to point out to them as all the Anglo-Saxon people in the room were like, we don't have accents in our names. Right. That was just not a thing they had ever occurred to. And it doesn't come from a place of racism. doesn't come from a place of, you know, like malignant prejudice. just, you don't know what you don't know. Right. I consulted to a company a couple of years ago. They wanted to elevate somebody from their team into their, ⁓ into their C-suite.
And their C suite was literate. Now, psychologically, I hate this. Their C suite was elevated. Like the sales floor was one thing and like a half floor up was the C suite, right? And the C suite was because it was an old factory building. It was just accessible by half half flight of stairs. This gentleman in a wheelchair could not get up there. So like, we'll just put your office on the floor. And I said, yeah, you know, what's cheaper than ⁓ you know, what's more expensive than building a $20 ramp?
Chris Lee (24:16)
Yeah.
Dr. Matt (24:35)
losing a $7 million disability lawsuit. Cause it's like, listen, it's up to you guys. And it's right. Like they had never had to deal with that before, but it took somebody bringing it to their attention. So what this all boils down to, I think is, is really welcoming in those perspectives and, and owning the fact that there's going to be inherent tension in that process. Right? If this podcast was like,
Bree Bartos (24:45)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (25:03)
How smart is Pinaki? Let's all talk about how smart there's no tension in the podcast. It's like we all just, you know, like go. Who wants the podcast? Right. That's the after party. We just talked about how awesome you are. That's like, that's the thing. It's like, so we say it's like, we're not always getting along. We're not always going to agree, but it comes like a vital idea is the difference between intention and impact. Right. I might.
Chris Lee (25:10)
Or that'd a little bit of tension.
Pinaki Kathiari (25:12)
A lot of people coming at me here.
That's it.
Chris Lee (25:19)
You
Dr. Matt (25:33)
know, Bree, I mentioned your dog before. And I think I used the pronouns she for your dog. Is your dog a she?
Bree Bartos (25:40)
Yes, her name is Bella. ⁓
Dr. Matt (25:41)
love that. Now, let's say that Bella is a boy, right? So I'm my intention is to say something nice about Bree's dog. I'm like, you know, Bella, he's so great. And Bree's like, how dare you? Right? My intention was to do something nice. My impact hurt Bree's feelings. Now all I can do is own that right? Like my gosh, I'm really sorry. I wasn't trying to. Here's what happened. And the idea is that I you know,
Sometimes it takes that the reason I use the example of those like the ketchup in the cafeteria versus why don't you have a swimming pool is often the friction comes in with these micro level versus macro level things. And it's not one is more important than the other. It's that they have different roles in this system. So let's you can even use a visual like a pyramid. Like what is our top level priority? Like who are we as a company and go all the way down to do we have enough hangers in the coat closet during the winter?
Right? Do we have the right kind of ketchup in the cafeteria? What that does is it gets us out of, Am I right? Or are you wrong mindset into here? All the pieces of this broad puzzle. Like you may have to do the edges of the puzzle to fill in the middle part, but that doesn't make the middle less important. Right? That kind of visual metaphor I think is really helpful to a lot of people because it gets this out of. I win, you lose into I win. And then you win. Cause I'm not in competition with you.
Pinaki Kathiari (27:03)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (27:04)
We all have good ideas.
Chris Lee (27:06)
was just going to ask, Pinaki, one of the things I was thinking about as well is, and I was thinking about Local Wisdom as well as Gallagher or any organization for that matter. I love this idea that, you know, we're still early in this journey of helping create awareness with corporate cultures and corporate America about, you know, just the value of understanding.
neurodivergence and how it can really dramatically improve a lot of companies. But at the same time, there's got to be a line drawn at some point where, okay, someone is neurodivergent, they're underperforming in sort of their main task. We try to locate what is the best setup for this person. But again, at the end of the day, it's still a business. And so, yes, this person has a livelihood and yes, we really feel for this person. We like this person.
but there's some scenarios where someone's just not able to contribute or be productive. And that becomes a very awkward situation where, you want to, you want to support and understand that this person is neurodivergent, but if once you start to get into a place where someone is, procrastinating regularly, ⁓ is burnt out, depressed, all these different things, which effectively, freeze them from.
being able to be productive on any level, what does that look like for a business that also has to think about ultimately the dollars and cents that go into all of this?
Pinaki Kathiari (28:37)
Wow, we're giving you the tough ones. I'm sorry, Dr. Matt. We're giving you all the tough ones here. Like, yeah, this is workout. ⁓ Cue the... Yeah, cue the rock. Cue...
Chris Lee (28:39)
Oh, I wanna know the answer to that question as well.
Dr. Matt (28:44)
⁓
Bree Bartos (28:44)
I was gonna
ask like, can't I send an email?
Dr. Matt (28:51)
Well, you really are a great question. ⁓
I didn't hear Chris at all as Mike went out, but it's great. What a great question.
Pinaki Kathiari (28:58)
That's so fun.
Chris Lee (28:59)
I guess.
Dr. Matt (29:05)
So, I mean, there comes a time where the only, you know, we have to talk about addition by subtraction, right? And I think that's sometimes the only way to move forward is to remove somebody from the company. And this is where, this is where I think we can do.
we can do the warmest possible handoff, right? Like for once, like I have like, I share my supporting neurodivergent people at work PowerPoint with any company who wants like who emails me like, so I will send you know, I can send that to you and you can send that out to your employee and say, listen, like I'm going to send this to you in your personal email, use this as a resource to help you find your next job. Right? You know,
Like we can warm handoff this. isn't just like, it's not breaking up with somebody in high school, right? Like I'm never going to speak to you again. You don't exist, right? Because there's a humanity in these interactions. And, but one of the things that, know, I think I use getting a job as an analogy for dating a lot, cause I think they're very similar, like not all breakups have to be heinous.
Pinaki Kathiari (29:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (30:15)
Right? If you're unhappy in this relationship, chances are your partner is too. Right? And I think that like, and you know, we're in such this like, God, I don't want to open myself up to liability culture. I don't, I don't think that it damns you or dooms you to sit with your employees and say, listen, I don't think this is working. Right? Like, let's, you know, like, in schools, we use this metaphor a lot. Like, so like, Chris, where, forgive me, where are you coming to us from? Where are you physically?
Pinaki Kathiari (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (30:16)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (30:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (30:43)
I'm actually
based out of Toronto in Canada.
Dr. Matt (30:46)
This will work perfectly. So Chris, what's the best pizza in Toronto?
Chris Lee (30:51)
boy.
⁓ We switch it up. I know, I know. ⁓ I don't even have a great answer to that question. I do like pizza, but we mix it up all the time. I don't have a favorite. Is that bad to say?
Dr. Matt (30:55)
You ask me a hard question, I ask you a hard question.
Yeah, well.
Bree Bartos (31:08)
My
favorite in Pittsburgh is Mercurio's, if that helps.
Dr. Matt (31:12)
that is the correct answer. Our national conference was in Pittsburgh this year. I was like, I'm going to Mercurios for pizza and I'm going to Church Works Brewery. ⁓ Yeah, mean, it's like, so Pittsburgh, god, Pittsburgh. ⁓ So the idea is that let's say that there's not a good pizza place in Toronto. Now, obviously there is it's a cosmopolitan city.
Bree Bartos (31:23)
They have the best gluten free pizza. Ugh.
Chris Lee (31:40)
There's
times, yeah.
Dr. Matt (31:40)
right, tons.
But you know, when I do this exercise for people who live in, let's say less diverse places, like the best pizza in my town is Papa John's. So it's like, I could fly in the best pizza chefs from New Jersey, and we could build you a brick oven and we could bring in the best ingredients and we could grow an organic hydroponic tomato farm. But at some point, isn't it cheaper to just fly to Italy and eat pizza there? Right? Like, we like
We are so good in corporate America at working hard, but we don't always work smart. Sometimes, like I said, if the environment is the intervention, sometimes the intervention is a different environment. know, and if you know, when I worked in the restaurant industry, it was not uncommon, like we were in a family of restaurants, it was not uncommon for somebody to say like, I was at the, I was at the fine dining place. And now I'm at the surfside burger shack, because that was a better fit for their vibe. Right.
Pinaki Kathiari (32:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (32:34)
you know, we had a guy who was, know, he looked like, ⁓ he looked like the actor who plays Jack Reacher in the, ⁓ in the Reacher series. This guy, he was built to not wear a shirt at work. If you get my, fine dining was not this guy's forte, right? But he could bring you a platter of burgers and giant mugs of frosty beer. And people would be like, I don't know how much this costs, but here's my credit card. Right? For him. like, can we move somebody laterally? Can you call some
Bree Bartos (32:44)
Hahaha
Pinaki Kathiari (32:45)
Hehehehehe
Chris Lee (32:45)
Yeah
Pinaki Kathiari (33:03)
Yeah.
Dr. Matt (33:03)
based on our assessment of this person, right? I think that this idea of leveraging our networks.
to help another person, it's not only karmatically the right thing, but I think it's business-wise the right thing because you don't know, there's almost no reason to slam a door, right? If we part as friends, who knows, maybe 10 years from now, they're the director of operations for their company, they call you like, you did right by me in my first job out of college, we have this $7 million deal and I wanna work with you guys because I know you, right? And like, you.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:32)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt (33:41)
So I could obviously keep going on this, like that's, think like, once again, leading with curiosity, curiosity leads to compassion. And when we live with compassion, we give, we get better outcomes for ourselves, our employees and our companies. There really is no downside there.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:55)
Absolutely. think you hit it right on the head right there. It's kind of like in the world of work that we have today, it feels very transactional, very just contractual, very not very empathetic, not very human. So yeah, like when we're at a place where we're going to come to a place where we're going to inherently disagree, we're thinking about how do we kind of draw up those curtains and put contracts and things like that in place. So.
This is kind of working with them, walking through the path, working as a friend, like, hey, what's the best way out of this? So I appreciate you saying that. I appreciate you on this episode. I want to talk to you for at least three or four more hours. However, I want to also thank you for joining us today because I think it was a really important conversation. I really wanted to, actually Chris and I really wanted to bring this topic to light and have you speak to it for people to hear.
Chris Lee (34:34)
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Absolutely agree. And I do apologize, Bree, cause I know there's lots, so many other questions, but just before we close off, just, just maybe in 60 seconds, Matt, I'm so curious about your book. I'd love to hear just in 60 seconds, what is the core of the book and why should people be thinking about ⁓ adding this to their list of must reads?
Dr. Matt (35:17)
By the way, Bree, the reason you can't send emails is you don't have enough dopamine. Dopamine is a task. You should think. So if you can't send an email, put on an awesome song. Like for me right now, I have kids. So it's golden from K-pop. I will write my notes. I will send my emails. I will do my expense. Okay, done. Right. Yeah. So if we, if this idea, if this idea that the world is built for and by neurotypical people,
Chris Lee (35:21)
⁓
Love it!
Love it. Ding.
Bree Bartos (35:36)
Thank you, thank you.
Dr. Matt (35:47)
So many neurodivergent people are walking around, they're playing the video game on hard with one hand tied behind their back and they don't know why they're struggling. So I wanted to create and build a playbook of actionable brain based steps that anybody can do because if we, if we don't ground our interventions in neuroscience, then if I don't know that Bree's gluten free, I'm going to keep serving her hamburger buns and wonder why she keeps getting sick. Knowledge.
is not only power, knowledge is empowerment, right? So if I know these things about myself, I can self advocate more, can create, I can customize my environments more. And this, you know, this playbook handles everything from like, how do you get your needs met at school to how the hell do you do small talk? Because that's something that a lot of neurodivergent people struggle with. Thanks, I got enough of my grandfather, my grandfather was the king of small talk. So I'm good. I, I
Pinaki Kathiari (36:34)
Hmm. Wow.
Dr. Matt (36:41)
hang out on the coffee line at transform. was like, I'm gonna make friends with you for 35 seconds. But the idea is, you know, to quote Maya Angelou, you do as well as you can until you know better. And then you do better. This book is a place to start like understanding about your brain. And then you know better. And then once you know about your brain, then you can do better because you're moving from a place of knowledge. Because our brains default to
I'm the variable I carry with me all the time. Right? So like, if I'm struggling, it must be me rather than my brain is different and needs therefore needs to different to succeed. And so, you know, that's, mean, really, it's written to like, hold on, what was that chapter on how to deal with conflict at work? Flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. There it is. Why do I struggle so much with sending emails? Flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. There it is. Because I want it to be, you know, top to bottom book, but also
Here's this exact play I need in the playbook to do this thing.
Pinaki Kathiari (37:43)
That's fantastic. And I think, I think now, now you're just like, yeah, I popped it in my shopping cart and want to kind of read it myself and give it away to a whole bunch of different people as well. Because that's one of the things that when it happens when in both sides, when you're, you're dealing with it, you're like, what's wrong with me? And then somebody outside is like, what's wrong with them? And it's like, there's nothing wrong with either of you or them. It's just human to be different. Right.
Chris Lee (37:43)
That's the neurodiversity playbook.
Bree Bartos (37:48)
Hahaha
Pinaki Kathiari (38:12)
So again, thank you and thank our listeners for tuning into this week's Between the Seasons episode. We hope you enjoyed. We hope this was very enlightening, not only for yourself, but people around you, because we're all in this together and we're stronger together. So thank you.
Chris Lee (38:29)
Yeah. And we're going to be back
next week with another short and honest conversation about the human side of work. Don't forget to follow and subscribe wherever you get podcasts, but do it after you order the neurodiversity playbook by Matthew Zakreski Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.
Pinaki Kathiari (38:47)
Dr. Matt.
Dr. Matt (38:47)
Thank you.