Ep. 78: Mental Resilience and the Call of the Wild

Travis Bader speaks candidly with two ex British Army soldiers about the importance of community, belonging and trust and how our connection with the natural world affects our wellbeing.  

Transitioning from military to civilian life presents challenges and learning lessons that everyone, regardless of their background, can find value in.  Tune in for some hard learned lessons on mental resiliency, re-establishing purpose and dealing with adversity. 

I would encourage everyone to listen to this in its entirety and to share their thoughts and experiences so that others who may be struggling can benefit.

https://www.hr4k.co.uk

https://www.acmg.ca

https://amga.com 

To learn more about the mental health walks mentioned in this episode, please check out Seb Lavoie at @slavccmdr : https://www.instagram.com/slavccmdr/

 

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Host Instagram - @Bader.Trav https://www.instagram.com/bader.trav
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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

Travis Bader, host of The Silvercore Podcast, discusses matters related to hunting, firearms, hiking, outdoor adventure, success, health and more with the people and businesses that comprise the community all from a uniquely Canadian perspective.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

I'm Travis Bader and this
is the Silvercore Podcast.

Silvercore has been providing its
members with a skills and knowledge

necessary to be confident and proficient
in the outdoors for over 20 years.

And we make it easier for people to deepen
their connection to the natural world.

If you enjoy the positive and educational
content we provide, please let

others know by sharing commenting and
following so that you can join in on

everything that Silvercore stands for.

If you'd like to learn more
about becoming a member of the

Silvercore Club and community,
visit our website at Silvercore.ca

Today, I'm sitting down with
Silvercore ambassador and my friends,

Jason, Budd and D Nugent Silvercore.

When selecting ambassadors looks for
people who have a positive outlook,

a passion for life, a zeal for the
outdoors, they're always looking to.

Themselves better to perfect their
craft, to share that with others

and to share that positivity with
others and Jason and Dean are

absolutely no exception to that rule.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining
me on the Silvercore Podcast.

Thanks

for having me.

Thanks for having us.

And I'm busted.

I'm actually touched by the

well you guys has came back from,
uh, I've been watching the feed here

for a bit, a little bit jealous.

Uh, you were in the smoke
Bluffs out in Squamish.

You were in, uh, climbing in Scott
Hall there and clone at Penticton

Colona, FinTech, FinTech, that area.

Yeah, it's been a while
since we've been there has

while we had you TIFF and, uh,
My partner at the time, quite a

few years ago, maybe 13, 2013,
that's going back or even further

going back a bit.

I got to dust off some
of my old climbing kit.

I still use it, but I haven't
been using it for climbing

for me being eight
years since I last time.

Yeah.

So maybe

we were there 2000,
10, 11, maybe with TEF.

Cause I know it was like a Semite.

We camped at the brand
Barre campsite and yeah.

Yeah, that was, that was a good deal.

We ate well in Dean, I'm
looking at some of the food that

you've been making up all the

steak dinner, you missed the steak dinner.

Yeah.

Amazing.

But you were saying earlier
that you only climb with Jace.

Yeah.

I don't trust anybody else.

So have you climbed much?

Um, I only got into climbing in
2014 when I come over the first

time and it was like, Jay, she was
like, oh, come on, let's try it.

You know, he was getting into climbing.

So he says, I'll take you out.

And it was like, is this my thing?

Because sometimes you're following
somebody in life or you want to do it.

Sure.

So I was like, yeah.

Okay.

Then we'll go and have a go at this.

Um, and then it was like, bloody hell.

Why, why haven't I done this sooner?

Yeah.

When we went and

did start Chuck.

Yeah.

And I've taken Travis over start check
because when we got into the base, you

said to me, I know why you do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

then, uh, cause you've
got the train track.

Haven't you running?

There's a bridge and we was halfway
up and this train trains coming.

So I'm looking down this valley
with mountains in the background,

a train going over the bridge.

And I'm like, I'm at a place where not
many people come and get this view.

And that's the thing about climbing.

And then as we progressed on, you know,
on that trip, um, to more stuff, it was

like, I'm going places nobody's been
before or ODS select few of people.

Would attempt to go up because
the rest of the people down on

the ground look and go crazy.

But the thing with Jason is he has that
ability to teach you and put you in a calm

place so that when you're doing it, you're
like, I know whatever happens, that guy

on the other end of that rope has my back.

That's where the trust thing comes in.

Yeah.

And that was something that
we were talking about earlier.

And I thought, you know, that's, that'll
be an interesting topic on the, uh, on the

podcast is to maybe touch on a little bit.

Um, but being able to find that trust
in others and in yourself as well, the

confidence that being outdoors brings you,
that being in the mountains brings you

that being on the rock face, when you turn
around and say, you know, there are others

out there that do this, but we've just
narrowed those numbers down significant.

Uh, there's a level of
confidence that comes with that.

How did, well, you know, why
don't we rewind a little bit?

How did you and Jason first meet?

So, um, I joined the army in 99 and
we used to have two phases here,

phase one, where you go and learn
how to iron care, make your bed.

He do lots of fitness and
you get to a certain stage.

Then you would do phase
two, which was infantry.

Um, um, my platoon, when we passed
out, uh, we only had, I think it

was something like 12 or 15 guys
passed out out of the 30 odd.

So it was known as a small platoon.

So then Jason's was the same.

So we've got, when we got to Catterick
the English guys from the prince

of Wales division were told, right.

Your mic, you're going to be put
in a job, platoon straight away.

It's like, oh, jocks,
that's a Scott Scott.

So it's, it's not an athlete.

Um, so straight women like, ah, jocks
and all the training staff were Scottish,

you know, um, training staff as well.

So straight away the English on the
back foot, because the jocks in English

don't really like each other to a point.

Sure.

We're not fighting anymore,
but there's still that.

So it's like, yeah, we're just.

I was one of the oldest and
Jason was one of the oldest.

Sorry, you say all of

this at 2120 debt, right?

Because average age is like 16, 17.

You guys are

all boys.

When they call in his grant, they
called me granddad at 21 at 21.

Yeah.

And it's like, this is 99.

Yeah.

Yeah.

99, 2000, beginning of 2000.

So straight away we sort of mingled
to each other because of our age

and then got talking to Jason.

He had his experience
in the Canadian army.

So it was like, okay.

And my father was in the army.

I was in the army cadet.

So I have a background in the military.

So it was like, yeah, we know
what's coming, we'll just

get on with it type of thing.

Um, but then when you had your time
off, Jason would like you just like,

oh, I'm going to stay as a staff,
come down to mind, you know, come and

meet the moment and think so, we'd get
the train down to mine, go meet mum.

And then eventually my mother was
like, Uh, had sort of been adopted.

So at the end of training,
when you pass out, they have a

parade, we do this big parade.

We March up and down the square,
everybody that's got family go

for this Curry lunch, anybody that
doesn't have anybody that goes back

to the block and have to clean it.

So of course Jason's now go going because
he hasn't got any family from Canada.

Um, and as he's walking away, my mum
shuts where you go in and he says, I've

got go back to the block because you
know, I don't have any family here.

She says, you're my son.

You're coming for colon.

So ever since then he's been,
so my mum's adopted him and he's

been part of the buy here, his
family to me now it's not a part.

He is, he he's a brother
more than a friend.

Um, and it just went on for them.

And then a lot of Jason progressed
in the army a lot more than I did.

I sat on my phone.

Um, so he was going down for courses
down in Bracken, but Tewksburys

already an hour from Brechin.

So of course, then he would come back,
do his washing mum would always say,

where's your Adobe, which is washing.

So first vendor laundry.

So as soon as he gets out of the
car, you know, mom's doing that.

Um, and yeah, for 22, yes, 22 years.

So

the, the bit of the background, as well
as, um, if you remember, I think one

of our first podcasts, my mum passed
away when I was in the EMT training.

So I went back for the funeral square
root of dot, and then I came back.

So, um, I was there
for the final exercise.

And the Passover.

And I remember Dean's mom when,
um, everyone had to come up and

get their certificate for passing
and Dean's mom stood up and

cheered louder, louder for him.

And even my sister stood
up and I was like, come

on now.

Yeah, really?

So, I mean, and not, and to me, she was
my English mother, like, um, you know, I

talked about when being injured on that,
on the, on the last day, the Hills and

selection, there was mother waiting out
on the drive was I pulled up, coming out,

big hug, grabbed the laundry right away.

Um, like when I say like family, like when
I got fast ball to go to Afghan with that,

you know, one, two weeks notice to move.

I left mother.

Um, or my bank account.

And I said, this is if you need it.

And unfortunately, Laura, which
is Dean sister, my sister, husband

passed away and mother had to use,
I don't know, five, 600 pounds to

help with the funeral arrangements.

And then she sent a message out to me.

It eventually gets to me and,
um, and I get a message back say,

Nope, that is what it was for.

Right.

He was going to pay me back to
all pay backs on everything.

I'm like, Nope, it's a gift.

That's for the years of the Sunday
roast dinners, the laundry, um,

the support I didn't hold up.

Yeah.

Like even to the point, like when I
left, I accidentally forgot like 500

year-olds I S I had sold a couch.

Does some of the jocks in
Germany, I was leaving.

And I, and I just first saved key things
left in the dress door ever of her place.

Yeah.

And I remember it as a flu.

I'm like, I forgot the 500 year
olds and I messaged her and

she's like, I'll send it to you.

And I knew, I think
she was going to Egypt.

I'm like, Nope, that
is your spending money.

You, I enjoy that, uh, the time away.

So, you know, money, money comes and goes.

You can make more money, you can have
no money, but that connection that you

have with somebody else that bonds that
you form, that trust that you build,

you can't put a price tag on that.

And there's been many
cliches written about it.

But I think if people can just
hold that mindset of what's truly

important in life and it isn't money.

No.

Um, it, it will help.

I think it would help a lot of
people in their perspective and

how they comport themselves.

I think

they just need to be true to
their selves and their friends.

That's the thing we've been Jason there's
no, there's no, you know, airs and

graces, but we're true to each other are
not lie to him and are not lie to me.

And that's the biggest

thing you can ask, as long as you got
that, you then get that respect of that

other person, even though I'm a clown.

Sometimes I know I am sure at the same
time, I know that he's got my bike last.

That's my brother, because
I'm, I am me with him.

I'm not I'm nobody else.

I don't pretend I am me

developing that level of honesty or
brutal honesty, not only with yourself

or with somebody else is something that
a lot of people go through life and

they, they, they never actually get their

trust.

And I find climbing being in the
mountains, being in the Hills

personally helps you to develop
that level of honesty with yourself.

And it kind of cuts through a
lot of that noise and static

that life generally holds.

So you can see what's truly important and.

Once you reach out yourself, you
don't really want to be hanging

around other people who don't kind
of have that similar perspective.

That's what I find anyways.

I don't know if you

guys see that.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Um, yeah, I had a few times
where I've not been in the wrong

crowds, but there's people around
that SAP, the energy out of you.

Um, and it is once you find that circle
or then people, what you get back from

them peoples far greater than any reward.

Because if you find somebody that's
passionate about what they do and it's

similar to what you do when you're
out doing something, it comes natural.

And, and that's, that's the thing.

We've mountains, Hills ultra running that
I've done climbing with Jason, it's that

sense of belonging with that community.

And that community is the same as you and
wants to do what you, you know, you're in.

Um, and yeah.

I'll climb with him
wherever he wants to go.

Well, I want to catch up with Jason on,
uh, on where you're at with your, uh,

ACM G your ski guides, your AMJ ratings.

But before I do that, I'm
looking at your shirt.

It says HR 4k.

What is that?

So HR 4k is it's a brand, um, it's run
by an ex guy from, uh, Hereford DSAs.

Um, and what Ben set up is acuity
of adventurous operators and stuff

like that, and for anybody else.

So he also has the blue
light services will come.

Um, they have black rifle,
coffee, contact, coffee, and all

the, all the other, you know,
sort of veteran don't stuff.

And he promotes veteran owned businesses.

He promotes local businesses in Hereford.

It's not all about the military, but
it's about people that are motivated

about people, uh, that want to be
part of community that help you.

Uh, he's done a lot for veterans and they,
they continue to do a lot for veterans,

but they do some good stuff as well.

And, you know, we've the
American veteran community.

And then the UK community
Ben, and the rest of his team,

they do something like that.

They have some wicked events.

So there's like, uh, I think
it's every Sunday, first Sunday

of the month they have the car,
the motor bike, they do smoke it.

So he's just belt
smokers who does brisket.

And it's not the same, but
it's, you know, and it's that.

And it's, it's that community where
you want to be part of, you know,

this guy isn't of, I'm an elite
and this is what I used to do.

He'll sit down and talk to him.

And your story's just as good as his story
and that, and, and Chris, our friend has

sat down, you know, we've been a few times
and they've taught and, and there's a few

other guys that Chris is welling with.

And they're in all of Chris's story
because when you're in the regular

forces, you look up and you think that
God, you know these guys, but when you,

when you get, and you don't take that
away from them, but when they sit and

they say to you, look, don't, you know,
what you've done is just as you sort of

sit back and you go, yeah, so, Hey, char
4k or art, it's that community based.

And that's where I like that.

That sort of what you were
just talking about surrounding

yourself with them, all people.

And that's the sort of people I want
to surround myself with, because

they'll give you the time of day.

And if they've got a contact within
the security sector or, you know,

shoot or what, they'll pass that on to
you, there isn't a, well, who are you?

You know?

Oh, you were just a Lance
corporal in the British.

It's like, no, how can I help you out?

You know, th they always say,
you can tell a lot about a person

by how they treat somebody who
can't do anything for them, right?

The person who will berate the
wait staff for the cleaning staff,

because they figure that they're in
a different position of power, um,

tells you a lot about the person.

And I've never gone a bunch for
people who will hang on their past

accolades of what they used to do.

I've always got time to listen.

I've always got time to, um, uh, to
learn about those past accolades,

but it's who you are right now.

That really makes a difference
because you can have been just a

wonder in the past and just a prime
loser now, um, and vice versa.

So surrounding yourself with
those like-minded people,

I'm going to check out HR 4k.

So Jace, tell me, where are things going
with your, uh, your journey into the

Hills here and getting yourself a credit?

Well,

the Hills, you bring that up.

Um, I do have to do a quick shadow
shout out to, um, I mentioned Dean's

family, but I also have a Brecken
family and I haven't really chatted

too much about them, but, um, they're
a family that owns JJ surplus door in

Breckon and Nessa, Vanessa, uh, mother
G and there are my Breck and family and

Vanessa is kind of like a little sister.

Um, they always helped me
with every time I was there.

They, um, you know, my nickname was
buddy there and they've been in touch

and I've gone back and visited them too.

So, um, and thinking about
the Hills, they, when I got

injured, they already knew I was
injured and off on the last day.

Um, cause they're friends
with the DS staff.

So, so when I showed up in and at
the house to see them, mother Jean

was already waiting for me as well.

A cup of tea.

Is that all right, son, you know,
so the family entity, you don't

have to be blood to be family.

Right.

So I just had to do a shout out
there, cause that says always

on my case for not mentioning
her, uh, in our, in our podcast.

But yeah.

Um, you know, I, I passed
my full ski guide with DCM.

CMG is winter.

Um, good to get that out of the way.

Uh, I did pass cause I am in the
American mountain guide association

for the, um, Alpine and rock.

Yeah.

And they have apprentice
assistant full and Canada.

We have a Prentice and full, full
ski guide or full rock guide.

Um, and the end state is to
become, um, a full guide in

each the rock Alpine and ski.

And then you're a full IFM GA
international Federation of mountain

guide association, mountain guide.

So, um, I, yeah, so it
passed the full ski guide.

Did the assistant rock
last year was successful.

I'm doing the assistant opine exam
in cascades, Washington in June.

And then that will qualify me
as an aspirin mountain guide.

So it comes with its own
benefits and labels too.

So next year I just have to
do the full rock and red rock

and then the full Alpine.

And then I will be at that IFM
GA um, member or qualified.

Right.

So, and it's interesting, we've
been talking about, um, identifying

or that like-minded people
and, um, the military is an ID.

Isn't is an ID.

You identify where that, uh, coming
out, I joined the fire service, so,

uh, union sticker in the window and
everything is how we identify ourselves.

Right.

People like to belong to things

along to something tribal.

Sure.

Right.

Um, but.

One thing that, I mean, I
really enjoyed the fire, sir.

I enjoyed the first year cause
really robust, resilient.

They train you hard as probationers,
but as the first year goes on, I

was missing something and it was the
robustness resilience at the infantry

brought me and a realize is that
we're always searching for this ID.

And for me it was searching
for that healthy ID.

What is that healthy ID for me?

And I started getting involved
with outward bound veteran Canada,

and I was already doing dabbling
in climbing and stuff, but it was

that first exposure without rebel
veterans, we did a ski traverse.

I think they only did two other
programs and they dialed the back.

Cause that was a pretty big commitment.

Right.

But they're there, but that really
got me thinking, yeah, I can do this.

And I liked this identity and I
actually like what they were doing

with the veterans at the time.

So that was really my
first structure of goal.

This is what I have to do.

Um, to go through the guiding system.

And I actually did a few other
courses with our rebel veterans.

I did the rock and then came
back as a ski instructor.

So basically they'd have two
guides and outward bounds

instructor, veterans, instructor.

And that's where I came in
and did for a few years.

Uh, but like everything you
can't work full time in the fire

service trained to be a guide
and then keep doing other stuff.

Cause I was involved Squamish search and
rescue business owner of a rescue company,

and then things start falling apart.

Right.

So because you're doing too much.

Right.

But I think that's really important
when coming back to that healthy ID and

that's where for me, I identify in the
mountains and that is my actual ID range.

Right.

So it's funny that you kind of segwayed
into that because as you're talking

there, I was in the back of my head think.

And have you ever thought about
why you identify in the mountains

and as you're going through these
different accreditation's to be

a full fledged mountain guide?

Um,

as long as I've known you, you're
always pushing, always striving, always

looking for the next thing, Dean,
like you're saying I was sitting on my

thumb, but Jace was, uh, progressing
through the, through the ranks there.

What is it that's pushing you?

I've always like, even in the
Canadian army, I was just saying, I

was like the next course, the next
year, the next posting, um, you

know, maybe I'm just wired that way.

Like I, my, my one partner, uh, Laura
said at the time, like, what is,

when is enough is enough for you?

Right.

And, uh, I had a chat with Dean about it.

And I think for me, it's going to
be that, um, for me, it will be

the IFM GA when I'm qualified as
this as a mountain guide for that.

But we were talking about
what we deemed as successful.

Cause I mentioned, because
I said we were driving.

I'm like, Dean, can you text
Charles since and, and see, um,

which, which place we're going to.

Right.

Cause there's two.

Yes.

So he texted you and I said, yeah, you
know, Travis is, is pretty successful.

And he says, what, what's your,
uh, what made you call success?

What do you call successful?

And for me it's not financial stability.

Well, it is stability in that, but
it's being in a position where you

can do what you want and not worry
about the financial obligations.

Right?

So for me, it could be like, I can retire
from the fire service in four years.

Sure.

And with all the pensions,
I don't have to worry.

And then when I work in whatever
organization, as, as, as a mountain

guide, I that's for me, that's what
I want to do versus have to do.

Right.

So for me, that's it could be living in
a micro home, off a $1,000 budget and you

make it, you're growing your own food.

And to me that's successful.

That's my dream.

Yeah.

Okay.

Dean,

what's success to you.

This been able to do, like I'm at a point
where I can work and then I can stop

and I can go and do what I want to do.

I don't own a home or anything back
in the UK just I'll stay where I'm

working and I'll go see my children.

And then it's like, right.

Um, I'm in a happy place.

I'm surrounded by the right people
that I believe are the right people.

Um, and I'm able to able to do that.

When other people are looking in in,
they're like, wow, that's amazing

you in Canada, what you do, I'm just
visiting my brother raid to me by other

people that is a lifetimes, you know,
saving, or they they've got a plan.

All this so successful for me is to
look in the mirror and am I happy with

myself and what I'm doing here I am.

And that's why for you drama.

I was saying like, to be able
to run these podcasts on a long

weekend with buddies is to be.

Jarvis is successful guy.

Well, you know, you've had
to work hard to get here.

Like that's the, you know, and, and I
default to, I should probably come up with

my own definition of success, but I've
always stolen, uh, Earl Nightingale's,

cause I've identified with it.

And he says, success is a progressive
realization of a worthy ideal.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter what you are.

If you're the school teacher that
loves teaching in your, uh, your

worthy ideal is to help others.

And you're progressively
working towards that.

Uh, if you're the high flying entrepreneur
or whatever, making a bunch of money,

whatever that were the ideal is to you,
success is that progressive realization.

And

you know, it's, um, it's one of
these things that, uh, money does

to a certain degree by happiness.

They've done studies and they say.

People need to eat.

They need shelter, they need clothing.

They need some basic necessities.

They need climbing here.

Right?

Speaking of that, I might
have some in my place anyways.

Um,

I still have your hang board.

That's right now in, in
the back in the bedroom.

Um,

we should probably tell people the hang
board is that's mounted in your bedroom

before they get some weird ideas.

It's for strengthening your
hand grip and trap bought it.

So drive is very, um, passionate.

When he gets a new hobbies, he
went out and bought all this stuff.

I've actually drilled.

I should send a photo, but you want to
be able to take weight off this isn't

so I have a pulley system hooked up, so
I add 10, 15 pounds so I can hang or do

pull ups and it takes the weight off.

So you're not straining your ligament.

So actually drill.

Um, a hook into that doorframe
because the hang boards mounted

above it with this pulley system.

And my partner is deaf.

He used to be number three in the world
for bouldering and the outdoor circuit.

And she hasn't trained to that level.

She's a phenomenal climber, but when I
break this up and the police she's like,

wow, I haven't thought I'd be training
on a hang board and yours and it's there.

So that's

funny.

Well, that's yours.

You keep it.

Now, these, I tore my, uh, what is it?

Brachial?

Radialis radial brachialis, uh,
250 pounds is doing too many.

Pull-ups doing too many.

And then that sets you back.

So, and you know,

Travis would be honest, like
the level that we were climbing

at, you didn't need to train.

I know they hang on, they

all in or not at all.

Exactly.

But that, um, that success
piece is interesting.

Uh, I had a dentist, Dr.

Crenn growing up and, uh, um, they
lived next to us, well, close to us.

They would, they had horses
and ride their horses.

When I was a kid, I, uh, I was
learning to swim in their pool.

They had a YMC come by, almost
drown there three times in my life.

I've almost drowned.

And that was one of them.

I got pulled out by my hair
from the, uh, uh, the deep end.

But, um, he always had, you
know, the horses, the pool, the

properties is a travel and everyone
just head down to Phoenix, went

to Andrew's place in Arizona.

And, uh, check that out.

I said, well, what's it like to be rich?

He says, you know, the more money
I make, the more bills you have.

Yeah.

It, it really, after a certain point
and you have those necessities.

Money really doesn't mean anything.

And you can always go once you get
that mindset, once you've earned

and done something, it's easy to
get back there because in your

head you've got that unlocked.

It's just like climbing.

Once you figure out a route, it's
like, okay, it's easier and easier.

I know how to do that route now, because
for whatever reason, you were stuck on

that crux and you just couldn't get by it.

But now, now it's unlocked.

Life's kind of the same way I find
once you reach those plateaus, but

being able to differentiate once you
find that little money portion and

realize that there isn't a hell of a
lot of happiness, that's found, there

is a point of diminishing returns.

And what is it that brings brings you joy.

And so the mountains bring you
joy, being surrounded by the people

who are like-minded bring you joy.

Um,

well, I drove, I did talk about
like the robustness, right.

That I missed, but, you
know, um, you know, my mental

health kinda, um, wasn't it.

Doing well in 2000 16, 16, 17, really?

Um, and I can honestly say the mountain
saved me, um, and I can relate climbing.

Um, my mental health is
reflected in my climbing.

So if I'm leading a lead climbing
and climbing in say tens or

low elevenths, I'm on my game.

If I have fear of falling because we
are protecting and everything else.

And it's definitely, I know I'm off my
game and what I've had to do that is

just continue at a lower grade or top
rope or second, but climbing is that,

um, direct correlation of where my mental
health set and there some studies coming

out, um, for me, BC of some scientists
studying that and relating to her,

there's always people doing studies and,
and, uh, I've partaked in a few of it.

And I can say, I can, you know,
assess where I'm at with my mental

health is where I'm at with my
climbing grades and where I'm at.

So I just know where
I'm at in my game, you

know, you know, I, I don't think I'm
quite as fine tuned on that as you are,

but I can definitely reflect the same.

I know.

My pack feels a hell of lot heavier
when my head's not in the right place.

I know I'm winded faster.

I know my attitude sucks.

And sometimes it's just a matter of
getting a little bit of a warm liquids,

India and getting the hard shell on.

And all of a sudden I'm warmed up a
bit and everything goes from sort of

a despondent feeling in your head.

Like you're out in the middle of nowhere
and it's up to you to make sure you get

yourself back to, okay, this is fun.

I got it.

I got it handled.

Um, it's amazing how much the mental
health aspect impacts, um, the

physical performance when you're,
when you're pushing yourself, when

you're pushing your boundaries.

Well, we mentioned like trust, right?

So when you have PTSD or if you
have your suffering and your mental

health, you lose the ability to trust.

Right.

Like, um, trusting yourself, trusting
others, you lose that and climbing.

If you're in a two man rope team
with troopers and rope team, you're

have to trust each other, you
know, um, that intimacy intimacy

amongst the partners is there.

Um, I remember this love
10 of Vancouver fire.

I just come in from climbing
before my night shift and

Vancouver fire is big hockey group.

Um, there's quite a few climbers in
it too, but this left tenant kinda

chirped at me and said, climbing's
not a team sport, not like hockey.

Right.

But, and I thought about that quite a bit.

And in a way I could see on the
big level, it's not a team event,

but it is a team event because
I could be guiding to clients.

I could be ski guiding and
have eight to 10 clients.

Like if I'm working at powder mountain,
the heli ski got me and I worked for.

Um, or have worked for, I get
have 12 clients and a tail

guide and the cat operator.

We're a big team.

We're all a team from the
clients to the ski guides, to

the driver, to the other cat.

That's working there to the heli team.

That's out as well.

Roll one big team.

So I could see, yeah,
maybe on a hockey concept.

It's not the same, but we're
definitely operating as a team.

There's a certain point
of the military as well.

And being British army that climbing
brings back because if you're on a

hockey team and he don't have buddies
back and you ended up losing the game,

everyone Rass, he ain't go home, have a
few drinks and try better the next time.

If you're in the Hills, you're in the
mountains and you don't have buddies

back and buddy doesn't have your back.

He can have some pretty dire consequences.

And that is.

I think from my perspective, watching
you, there's three things that I've seen.

Number one is, uh, perhaps it's
a bit of a replacement for the

camaraderie and level of trust that
you would find in the British army.

No, a second, not a second one would
be, um, there's a forced presence

that you start putting yourself into.

So when people want to be present,
they will sit down and they'll

do their mantra and they'll own.

And they listen to their surroundings
and they look at colors or they smell

or whatever it is, they just try very
hard to not be in the past, not be

in the future, be in the present well
climbing and being in the mountains,

forces you to be present in a way that,
um, You have no other choice, if I'm

not thinking about my next handhold,
if you're not thinking about how you've

placed your protection or your gear, your
clients, um, there are dire consequences.

And I think from a PTSD standpoint,
there's, I wonder if it's, I would

think that it's healthy, but being
able to differentiate or being able

to use that presence experience as
a, um, a segue to be able to do it

without climbing cause otherwise number
three comes and that's, if you can't

find that level of presence without
pushing yourself, then you're always

going to be pushing those boundaries.

And when you say when's enough
and when you say, you know,

the, uh, the mountain safe.

There was a point Jace where I figured I
was, you know, mentally preparing that.

And you know, maybe the idea behind
the mountains were to push harder and

harder and harder until such a point that
it's the mountains no longer save you.

And that was, um, I always one of those
things, I, that I wondered if that was

a driving factor and maybe it was a one
point, but I sure don't think that is now.

And, you know, traveling, you, you
talked about the present moment.

Um, this association was
a big problem for me.

Um, like I live in Squamish.

I drive to Vancouver for work
with the Barth fire service.

There's an hour there that
would force me to discuss.

And then I'm not in the present
moment and I'm back, maybe in

Iraq, run back in Afghanistan or
I'm in a bad, bad relationship.

Um, and I had to do many things
to stay in the present moment.

Um, so I wouldn't disassociate because
I would put me in some bad places,

maybe it was a bad, you know, some
of the bad calls have had with the

fire service or the tech rescue team.

Um, scent is very important,
really important sent to me.

Um, one of them is, uh, when I came
back in 2009, I climbed, um, which

mountain without, uh, every movie.

And I remember that mark Celese
who passed away this Artek,

he was there with his team.

So we were trying to meet him at
the top, race him to the top we got

there, but I remember lavender the
smell of lavender and it was in the,

um, it was in the, uh, uh, Heather
Heather, that was up in the Alpine.

And we went up to about 8,000 feet
and we did when we did our trip

didn't summit, but that's that smell
stayed with me, Travis lavender.

So one of the things I had to do was
a bought this organic bar of lavender

soap and I'd keep it in the car.

And, um, that would kind of ground
me and keep me in the present,

um, to the point now I can, I
can catch myself disassociate,

disassociate, and I'm very aware of it.

Um, and, uh, bring myself back
often what I do now, I, I just

have like talk shows like CBC, BBC.

I listened to podcasts.

I tried to introduce Dean
to some podcasts today.

Um, but we're better chatting.

Let's listen to music, but you know that
the far end of, of, uh, being in the

present moment, um, what I like about the
mountains is that it forces me in there.

I remember we climbed,
um, Steph and I climbed.

Chilliwack peak, that's a
28 pitches or something.

Awesome.

I've only gone so far on that
one, but that's definitely

was a highlight.

And we did a few year.

We had to, we camped on the backside.

We planned, we, we camped up at
Pella card cause that airplane

crashed into the sixties and all the
parts get brought in to this car.

And, and we camped below it climbed
the whole, the whole thing in

one day and got in the backside.

But on the driver, I had a Tacoma at
the time and, and um, we're driving this

really rough road and I, it was hot.

It was dusty and to the climb and
I'm driving down the road and we

hit this Washoe of full tilt and the
front end goes up, comes down, bang.

And I Steph looked at me and I looked
at her and I said, Def I wasn't here.

I was in a land Rover in Helmand
province, driving down the road.

Like I actually wasn't in my Tacoma
with Steph after Clemis Alessi, Iowa.

In Garmsir district coming out
from the gun line, down into our

fob, for example, and what I, and
what woke me up was hitting that.

So that's how significant
my disassociation was.

Right, right.

So, uh, that's why being in the
mountains, for example, forces me

to be in the present moment and
I love it being in the present.

Right.

And there's lots of things you can,
you can keep yourself there too.

Right.

Smells, sights, um, positive
reinforcement, you know, use

indeed.

You've you're into running as well.

Aren't you

ultra running.

Yeah.

It's similar to Jason when I, um, when I.

My father died 2014.

I was out, I was out here,
but he had throat cancer.

Um, and then I come out, I'd
done the climb in and everything.

And it was like, I need to find
something I need similar to Jason.

It wasn't about saving me.

It was about, I need
to do something for me.

I don't feel like fit anywhere.

I've come out now I've
done a few little jobs.

What am I doing?

Where is my next move?

What, you know, w what's
life got in for me?

So then I went online, typed in adventure
race and the Squamish 50, 50 come up.

And I was like, what the, how really?

So I watched this video by the ginger
runner and, um, and I remember the, when

they, it was on and Jason said to me, he
says, oh, we're going to get out of town.

The zombies are coming in.

And I was like, what?

He says, it's a festival
or something going on.

Um, so we, we went our
town, but it was the 50 50.

So I watched this video and then straight
after I went onto the website and I went.

And I booked the 50, 50, not just
the 25 K the 50 miles the first

day, then the 50 K the second day.

Not having run since I was in the army.

So now I'm sat here
beyond this computer in.

I need to run, I need to get out running.

So I just started with 5k
10 K half marathon marathon.

And then I got in with, um, some
folks down in Dom or called pure

trail and they run a running events.

Um, and then on a Wednesday
they had a group Bunin.

So if I was down in that area,
cause I've got family in Plymouth,

I would then go meet him on
the mall, go running with them.

Um, and then I done.

Plymouth Plymouth, um, marathon, which has
done a bike track then up the bike track.

But it's a real nice down through
the Hills and old way recheck.

So I started making friends and they'd
be like, oh, we're running this one.

And this one, so was like, oh, meet up.

And you get you can't you get
your tent out, you fire in the

nighttime, you sit talking about
the race and then you'd go off.

The thing about ultra running
is it was a couple of things.

So it was seeing the things
and the journey as you run.

And a lot of people think when
you say ultra running, it's

like what you run for 16 hours?

No, it took me 16 hours to
cover 70 miles, but there were

eight stations along that way.

So you start, you have a bite to eat.

If you need to, you have five, 10 minutes.

If you've got a crew, like at Squamish 50
50, I had, um, Jason and Dan SL friend.

Um, and they give you that bit of a push
because there's sometimes when you're

on that trail, Why am I doing this?

Why did I book this?

And you question, not just your
ability, but you question yourself.

It's can I do this?

What am I thinking?

I'll be easier if I just
get off now and finish.

Just, I say, I shouldn't be here.

Look at these other people.

Right.

But we've trail running.

Everybody has a story on that trail.

They're not running because
they just love running.

They have a story that's brought
them to trail running and the

ultra Mao, the ultra orphan scene.

Um, and then the ones that are good at it.

Fantastic.

And they, but they still got time for you.

So I remember 2016 when I, I
run the first time, uh, Dakota

Jones is a big time runner and he
came and he won the man's right.

The men's race.

Um, but I was stood there talking to
him and he's a young lad still, but

he, they have the time they live in.

They haven't got big houses.

They just they're in vans and they
love running and they love, they're

passionate about what they do.

Sounds like this is brilliant.

So like yourself, I popped back.

I stopped buying all the kit.

I'm brilliant.

I need this.

I need that.

Right.

Quite what's he wearing?

Right.

I need to behave them.

And it's like, oh, they're
wearing them shoes.

And he's like, you don't,

you don't need it any, you never really

do.

Don't need it.

You could just put a pair
of dApps on that work.

All right.

For you, you could go out with some tiny
shorts on and a cotton t-shirt yeah.

I don't need the top brand or, you
know, the running vests and all that.

The, the data there's certain races
where you have to have certain stuff like

a, you know, a warm blanket, you know,
hydration, food or whistle, you know,

uh, if you get lost, but it was just
that pureness of just running in nature.

Like gave me that sense of belonging.

I'd found my peer group
along with climbing.

It was ultra running.

So now when I have my moments, I
put on a pair of trainers, I get

out the door because the endorphin
spike, because I'm doing exercise

and then I felt fantastic about it.

And I'm like, yes, brilliant.

And that's the thing with the
ultra is it's a, it's a very

long spike when you do so.

The biggest race I've done with 70 miles
in 16 hours, uh, and when you've run

that, and then you stop and you've been
running with other people, you just did.

We just do that.

And sometimes I say, Jason
pushes me when we're climbing.

And I thank him for it.

He's like, right.

We'll do like most of this last trip
down the scar was about technique

turning and hips and all this.

And I'm like, I'm not dancing, Jason.

It's like, yeah.

But if you do this watch and then
was like, and then you do it.

And it's like, I've just
reached two inches higher.

There's a, there's a ledge there.

I've just been dancing like
a Turkey on this ledge for 20

minutes trying to work it out.

And Jason's like, yeah,
there's no point dancing.

You need to get up there.

I

forgot.

So one of our goals or trave is, um, our
goal is on, we're gonna hit up to Marvel.

Okay.

And there's a 20 pitch climb.

They're called the goat.

Okay.

So what's what we call each other.

The goat by made the goat
goat greatest of all time.

And we actually started our
first climbing trip up there.

And we, I was building
resume to be a rock guide.

And we, uh, we had a moment on
the rock where I'm pushing it.

Dean's at his complete comfort zone
and we had a good heart to heart.

And then it had the dial
up, back and everything.

But I would love to go back
now on Wednesday, go up there.

And it's only 20 pitches.

The highest is five nine, but I would
love to be able to bring Dean back

to that where we started and this,
this, this route wasn't in there.

When we first went there, it's
a bolted 20 pitch Alpine climb.

So that's why I've been really focusing
on the technique with him because I'd

like to get him on the goat before

he goes back.

I'm ready.

Yeah.

This is so ma um, marble canyon
was when we had pulled in to,

to set up component thing.

And there was this young lady and
a partner from down in America

and she she's talking away and
I said, oh, he's a climber.

Like, this is my first time out.

So, oh, Jason's a climber.

She says, have you climbed?

I said, I've done a lot of
bins in Squamish on the Bluffs.

And I said, yeah.

So I've done a little bit of climbing.

She goes, you're a climber then.

Right.

I was like, yeah, I guess I am then.

Yeah.

But he's because you look at somebody
at a level and you think, well,

nothing like that, but you're,
doesn't, it's not about the level.

If you participate in that and that then
becomes your passion, that's what you are.

Or like, that doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if I,
he Clem's better than me.

It's about taking part and that, yeah,
I got up on the rock and I climbed,

I mean, like you're a runner.

Yeah.

Other than that, the winner of the

50 there, but not the today.

Yeah, I've still got to come back.

So there's um, so the Squamish
50 feet I've entered twice, but

I've never done the second day.

Okay.

So I've woke up with aches and
my head's telling me I'm injured.

I've got blisters on my feet and
everything else that I can't get

from that bed to the start line
and start walking on the next day.

Cause the header cause of feet and legs.

And I

think it's all of it.

Yeah.

But my head gets the better part of me.

And then that's that right?

Yeah.

You could you're out your

league meet, but to be fair to
him that one time he had Gortex

runners, you had Gortex runners.

Oh, it was hot.

I remember it was the heat wave.

I said August the first one and
then, uh, he'd come around and he,

and Dennis and I are at the point
and he's like, it was awesome, mate.

I sat in this Creek to cool
off and I'm like, oh no.

So his Gore-Tex runner.

Or soaked.

So I think had we'd switch, get a
shoes, your feet, but that totally

Hambergard his feet about halfway along.

I think if we had switched
out runners and stuff and you

weren't in the Gore-Tex shoes.

So that definitely, yeah, that
was, yeah, but the Creek must've

felt great.

It was fantastic, mate.

I like to burn in there's a part on

IVIG next time.

Do it.

So your feeder.

Yeah.

Well, there's a part it's I can't
remember what it's called the escalator

part and it goes up me, me and Jason
record it, but it goes up for like

over a mile, maybe a little bit more.

Um, and by the time you get up
into the clouds in the mountain,

it's like, God, that's all.

So my legs were like solid and pumping.

Right.

And I saw this Creek.

I was like, I'm getting in
that definitely that's me.

When Hoffie you go?

So I'm sat in it.

I'm like, oh, upstairs.

That's fantastic.

Right.

I better get on running.

So as you're running.

My feet are burning on the
feet, but it's been in the war.

It's like, because you just
rubbing and I'm coming down and

they're all mountain bike tracks.

It's not a road, a trail,
it's a mounted bike.

So you're bouncing off rock.

And of course, then I didn't
really know how to run properly.

It's crazy people.

You're like you run properly.

Yeah.

There's a way to run down Hills mate.

You know, if you put your arms out and
balance and then let your legs go, you go.

So what that helps is stops you pushing
as you're running down the hill.

If you're.

Doing that your knees doing
your knees doing this.

Right.

But if you kick your legs out
and go with the hell exactly.

As if somebody was on a mountain bike
going down, if there's a burn goes

that way, you go that way, but you keep
your hands out and use it as balance.

So when people see all these big runners
coming down and they've got cuts all

over they've tumbled because they've
let their self go rather than slowing

down, which then puts that on the
joint, on the knees, go with the flow.

So the first year I'm
like, oh, step, step.

Oh, right.

I was like my niece mate.

I can't, yeah, this is so in.

Whereas the second year, and I
took an hour off the second year.

That's time.

Yeah.

So the first year was 14 hours for 30.

And then the second was
13 hours 30 something.

And I was like, I come in and
I was like looking at a clock

and I said, I've took an hour.

You would have thought
I won the whole thing.

I started shopping.

I'm looking at Jason and Chris slur.

I've took an hour off, look at that time.

And he's like, yeah, but
you got another day to go.

Oh yeah.

I'm going to just push that a little bit.

Yeah.

To OD.

So the 50, I don't
know, Travis piggy dove.

It's one of the robust races
because of the Hills and the trails.

Okay.

I haven't done it.

I've been in the area and I've
seen people who've done it.

That's.

Yeah.

So I, I did go through a phase.

I, uh, about 2016 for me.

It's it's we call it the hump season.

So between the rock and the ski season.

So October, November is my worst season.

Put weight on maybe too
much beer or whatever.

In September, I told Dina, I'm going
to run the 50 K with you the next day.

That was my plan.

I remember this.

Yeah.

So I started trail running.

I was up to about 30 K.

This is where

you ran into the bear as well.

I remember though,

that was training training.

I, I was running, maybe I went, you
know, over two, three months, I got

myself up to about 30 K maximum.

And then one day, one day my
hamstring spasms, knee pain.

And that was me done.

That's it not worth it.

That was enrolled in, but I just think
I did maybe too much over that time.

And that three months training for it.

Loving you.

You did.

Yeah, but I, that was my goal was
to get him on the 50 K line the

next day and run it with them,
but it just never worked out.

And now I actually be honest on
having hand issue, maybe a volunteer,

but yeah.

Cause let's figure it out.

We could do it next

year.

Yeah, no, I got to do my Alpine guide.

Exactly.

Okay.

But, um, So

I, I got two different questions here.

One, one's an observation.

I remember, uh, you, me, Dennis
were out in, um, what was it?

Was it Mount beautiful?

Do you remember that long time ago?

And someone says, Travis got to try
these Danner boots out there the best.

And that, that was a mistake.

Never trust somebody when they say these
boots are the best, maybe for them, right?

Maybe these socks are great for you.

Everyone's built a little bit differently.

Anyways, my boots are just full
of blood by the end of that one.

But I remember you were
recently back off of doing.

SAS selection.

And I'm thinking, you know, I
can't complain like I did this

guy is going to be just a machine
out there and I got to keep going.

But one thing that really surprised
me was, uh, you kept a steady pace,

not necessarily a breakneck fast
pace, but the pace was just constant.

And any time Dennis, Dennis was
like, oh, I got a rock in the boot.

Like Dennis, stop sort yourself
out, administer your boots, then

get up and let's get going again.

And it was a very different
mentality than what I'd ever kind of

allowed myself to have in the past.

I was always like, well, if you're,
if you're hurt, you just keep going.

If, um, if you're wet, just keep
plugging through, just go faster.

If you're cold, you'll warm up.

Um, But the amount of distance set on
subsequent trips that we'd go out on

that we're able to cover comfortably
in a short period of time, by just

taking that approach of a reasonable
pace, sorting yourself out, fuel

yourself up when you need it, take
care of the feet when you need it.

Uh, so that, that was my,
um, sort of observation.

And that was one of the big things I
learned from you and how to be able

to, uh, push yourself further than you
figured you're able to go is by making

sure that you take care of all of those
little things in a progressive way.

So that's my observation, the
question I have though, and

I'll pose it to both of you.

So Dean ultra running, and you
get to that point and you're

like, what the hell am I doing?

My feet hurt.

My legs hurt.

It's cold.

I'm tired.

How do you push through that?

When you've got about four
miles to go to the finish line?

It's easier to keep going and
finish and get over that line

than it is to turn around and
walk the miles you've just done.

Okay.

And it's that mindset?

Yeah.

Crack on.

That's also the beginning too.

I think the first few
miles is the artist too.

Where's your body's going

on by doing this until, until
you warm up until you get going

in that engines and right.

It's in that cycle and it's like, yeah,
you got this, the body's doing that.

But then the head kicks in, right.

It wants to do different
to what your body's doing.

Right.

So to push through that, I
think it's, it's, it's the same.

I take it from the same sort of
mentality when I was in, in the forces.

When you take a position, you
push through that position.

So you take it, you've got your goal.

Now you push on because
there's another goal.

If we stopped short.

You're in a killing area or beans,
or you've got to keep going.

Even if my leg I've got
a crew, I've got a walk.

And that was the thing free training is
you'd always have a wagon behind you.

It's called the chuckwagon
or the ambulance.

Yeah.

So if you in, so you get a lot of people,
I can't do this, get on the wagon.

So there's always something
behind you that would, you

could go, oh, I can't do this.

I can get on that wagon.

It's warm.

Get a coffee and they'll carry on.

Go in.

Don't have that.

When you're running, right.

You've got finish.

Jason, how do you get through it?

I remember I was talking
about it on the first podcast.

Okay about that day.

And, and it's interesting now, um,
like I said, it's a ski guide, like

black home, everyone goes out the back
gate and the other go to east call

or they go to guides notch, and it's
a rat race and they follow the same

track and it's icy and everything else.

I usually put my own up track in now.

And the perfect guide
pace is 11 degrees trail.

Yeah.

That's the most efficient output
that you can climb out to be

efficiency without burning out.

The other track that goes straight
up called the Revy tracks, Revelstoke

tracks way that they go straight up.

I really love putting in this 11 degree
truck and it's longer, but you cover

more kilometers over all through the
day, but then you start passing everybody

and you're not tired and you see them
cause they just do these op rests.

They go straight up.

Then they arrest and the rest.

Right.

So, um, what draws me
to this trout for me is.

I am drawn to adversity.

Mm.

I remember being said, um, I'll use
bracket senior Brechin and I think I

talked about it where we're leading, we're
heading out for an exercise and my Bergen

weighs so much that I have to sit on the
parade square and roll over onto my knees

to stand up, get to get on the truck.

We're going to do a 16
kilometer, uh, surgeon dabber

dot goal announced the battle.

And, um, I remember that thinking
that not a lot of people that are

doing this, I forget reasoning.

Sure.

Right.

But I was drawn to doing stuff that
most people don't want to do or can't

do Y for me, um, it's coming back to
that diversity, like it really comes

down to, um, Challenging myself.

So, uh, the self efficiency, finding
ways, like, for example, teaching

Dean now, like when Dean came 2014, I
wasn't that good of a climber either.

I couldn't really coach him because
I was in that good of a climber.

But now I can do, to say it's more
efficient and less effort to do this.

The Twistlock for example, versus
doing a pull-up the whole way up.

So it's that self-sufficiency finding what
is the most efficient way to do, um, and

carried out, um, you know, like the grit.

So it's interesting when you
think about what drives people.

So we should do a podcast one day about
my accident, Spain, where I fell, broke

my back, my foot, my wrist, and my ribs.

We can talk about it right

now.

Well, I think it's a podcast in
its own, but long story short, I.

What's going to repel to the
ground, but add my friend, Lord me.

Cause I remember how much, when
you do that tandem rescue repelled

together, how much movement I had
and it was better for my back.

Right.

He lowered me right away.

I had to down climb and
scramble out and walk two, three

kilometers while he got the car.

Um, when I was Squamish SAR, search
and rescue, I remember having to carry

a patient off with a broken toe and we
carried her down all the way from peak

three or two Lord and carried her down.

So everyone has different levels, right.

People just, um, throw it in
others rise to that occasion.

Right.

So for me, it's that challenge
in the university that

drives me to that next level.

And then I think like Dean's
alluded to a lot of it.

Um, yeah, that personal growth, right?

There's that growth of.

In yourself like that trust, but also,
um, what your limits are knowing when's

enough enough or do I have more in myself
or maybe if I was more efficient, I could

push myself to that next level right.

In that versus hitting
it like a bull full on.

Right.

So, um, yeah, for me, it's that

knowing your limits, you know,
when I was a teenager, all these,

no fear t-shirts were really big.

You remember those?

And I always thought I
want to make a t-shirt.

I bet you it'd be a hot seller.

It says, know your limits,
but N oh, your limits.

Yeah.

I've never seen anyone do that.

Maybe by now someone has, but maybe we
have something you your limits, right.

Say no to your limits.

Yeah.

Um,

but there's ways you can affect that too.

Like training fitness, like.

I know.

Um, so I'm coming off ski season and I
didn't I'm I'm, I'm very objective based.

So ski guide was my, my ski
guide exam in March was priority.

I knew I have rock and open coming up.

I didn't really tick over in the gym.

I'm just like ski, ski, ski, ski now.

Rock season started say a month ago.

And Steph and I went out climbing
and I was like, oh my goodness.

I need to get back in the gym.

And just within a month climbing
what routes that were shutting

me down, uh, with Steph Dean.

And I just on-site to them, I
guess it'd be a red point cause

I've climbed to find them before.

Sure.

But I was just like climb.

One of them backed down and went
straight on the other one where

I had to work them with Steph.

So that's only a month of
just doing the baseline.

You flushed them, the distinct training
in the gym, not climbing base, just

strength, like squats, dead lifts,
bench, brows, bent over row pull-ups and

what that month of training does mean.

Um, and I find, you know, with the
podcasts, you get all different

people, emailing and contacting and
DM-ing and all whole different bags.

And one thing that seems to be
coming up over and over again is

this whole mental health thing.

And I'm learning a whole bunch about
mental health in the process, and

everyone's gotten mental health
problems to some degree or another.

When you're talking about the woman
who's got the stubbed toe or the broken

toe and carried her down, you know,
maybe that was incapacitating for her.

Who are we?

The judge?

Right.

Everyone's got different,
different levels.

And you know, oftentimes people
get competitive in the, uh,

well, you've got mental health.

What, w what'd you go through, what
are your, ah, I've been through

worse, then they've done studies.

They've done studies that show how like
mothers have lost their children and the

brainwaves and what the brain looks like.

And the other trauma affects them and
people who don't have that experience,

but they have the exact same trauma
or brain waves in their head as if

somebody had something that was.

Arguably more, um, impactful or
traumatic by, by most people looking

out, um, everybody's going to have
a different perspective on things

on the, on the mental health side.

Everyone's got a different levels.

I know in past podcasts, we
talked about the guy who got

PTSD from eating a chocolate bar.

Have you eaten?

Have you heard this one?

So this guy goes in and a convenience
store buys a chocolate bar eats.

Half of it looks down like
a scarf in this thing.

And it's got maggots in this thing.

It's disgusting, right?

Tells the clerk.

Clerk says, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Here's a refund.

You can have a free bar
if you want right on.

He goes, but then the guy goes
home and he starts thinking about

eating chocolate bars with maggots.

And he asked her to have a nightmares that
would eat and maggots in his, in his food.

And then he can't go to church
anymore because he figures they're all

going to laugh at him for eating the
chocolate bar with and maggots and.

Exhibiting avoidance tendencies and
recurring thoughts and all of these

things that are typically associated
with, with PTSD, from, from eating

a chocolate bar, Meg, it's something
that I don't know, all three of us

would probably have done at some point
and thought nothing else of right.

Trauma

to hit me.

Isn't

it?

Yeah, that's right.

And that's the interesting
thing I find I am.

It's going to circle back to
like, how do you push through?

But, um, that's the interesting thing
of that I find when we talk about mental

health, is it really doesn't matter at
what place you are in Fortune's wheel and

what rung you are on the latter of it.

It's it seems to be the
acceptance of those around you,

that support network, right?

If it's viewed as a socially
unacceptable thing, then, uh, perhaps

your own perception of it is going
to be worse and, uh, An absolutely

natural event that happens everybody.

Yet.

People stigmatize it as if it's,
it's like, if you got cut and

you're bleeding, people would
say, put a bandaid on that thing.

Or, jeez, that looks deep as
stitch it up in a couple of weeks.

You'll be good to go.

We'll take those stitches out.

There's a process in place
when it comes to mental health.

Um, I, I still think we're far ways
away from people having that level

of understanding as to, uh, to how
to deal with it or just accepting it.

Okay.

I think we've, that is in
the old days it was a taboo.

Sure.

Yeah.

So, so mental health was
like, you're a nut job.

Men don't have mental health problems.

You're strong.

You're the alpha you're Garver.

You go to work, you come home
and then you do the home stuff.

So I think for a very long
time, There was that taboo about

talking about your feelings?

A lot of the programs on TV, social
media wasn't around that, but a lot

of the programs on TV, like the Ateam
Airwolf there's these male figures

that are saving people's lives.

So as a child, you're sitting
there, you're watching that.

And it's like, that's what a
man is, you know, he gets shot,

but he's not crying falls over.

He's not crying, you know, that helping
people know he's strong, like the Hulk.

Yeah.

So we had a lot of these images and,
you know, programs that we used to

watch where we didn't have that.

And, um, whereas now we sit here
and we can talk about mental health.

There's other podcasts there's
people talk about, but I agree with

you that isn't there still isn't
enough because it comes down to like

people getting help comes down to.

Where's the money for the mental health,
because they'll go while we've got

these other things we need to deal with
first, but you, you can't, mental health

should be one of the priorities, right?

Because

if, if we you'll never solve it.

So, but for me that I'm not talking about
everybody and for Chris, you know, I've

helped Chris, our friend for a long time.

It's about managing it.

When, you know, you have this PTSD
or anxiety or depression, and if

it gets like it's about managing
that, you'd always have it.

It doesn't go away.

It's there.

We just now need to learn how to manage
it, whether it's ultra running or

it's being in the mountains, climbing
for Jason and doing his guidance,

you know, so the taboo in the old
days is what we need to wash out.

And the mental health is it's not somebody
in a white jacket is getting taken away.

It's this.

I've had a bad day yesterday,
but we'll talk about it.

And I had a moment.

We are going to be open.

Yeah.

I had a moment with Jason than it scar.

We were climbing.

Um, I think it was a 5, 5, 8, 5, 9.

Was it mother superior?

I think it might've been, and
I got on it and I got to this

point and the head slipped in.

You can't do this, what you're doing.

And I'm looking at it.

If I can't see the hold, can't see it.

What, what am I doing?

Come all the way out to Canada.

I'm making a fool of myself.

What, what am I doing?

You said something, didn't you and I,
and I think I, I found it and I got up

and then I come down, but I come down
and he just looked at me and I just

sat there and I was just staring out.

He says, you are.

Just like, I just started crying.

I don't know why.

I just, I just had this moment where
it was like, I wasn't happy with what

I did up there or something, or my head
turned around and said to me, get down

this isn't, you shouldn't be doing this.

You know, this is a five, nine or five
or what, you know, the hold is an air.

You can't see it.

Just, just get down.

You're trying to live somebody
else's life or something.

I just sat there.

And, uh, and he's just like,
he says, no, take your time.

Sure.

He says, sorry, I'll just talk the
rope out and everything take your time.

You know?

And I just, I just sat there and I'm
like, I don't know why I'm crying.

I've got nothing to cry about.

I'm not full balling, but I've
got tears running down my eyes.

And I'm like, what, why I
got overcome with the moment?

Interesting.

I've got nothing to cry about.

It's um, if someone's feeling that way.

They have something when they cry for a
reason, there's, there's a reason for it.

Right.

And it's, um, it kind of reminds me
years ago, argument with my wife, we're

talking, I don't even know what it was.

Right.

And, uh, like how Kate
you see you're wrong.

Right.

Like even like in my head, like I could
fix this and like the typical meal here's

this and here's why, and blah, blah, blah.

And she's like, you
know what you're right.

But it doesn't change.

It doesn't change the way I feel.

Right.

Yeah.

It's like, huh.

And it was the first time I ever
looked at it and I thought, well, yeah.

Okay.

Well, I guess then we address
why you feel that way.

And maybe there's, there's
more to look at it.

And when it comes to the stigma associated
with mental health, You know, I, I see

both sides, the one side, the 18, the
Hulk, you gotta be strong and you got to

push through and he never have a problem.

And the other side, um, is,
uh, delving too far into it.

And then identifying with that and
say, well, I'm, I'm Bob with PTSD.

I'm I'm Joe with whatever it might be.

And that becomes your label and your
crutch that you always fall back on.

And I think the more that you, cause he'd
never say I'm Bob with the foot injury.

I hate, uh, you'd say,
yeah, I had a foot injury.

If it comes up from time to time,
I could still feel it, but here's

so here's what I do to manage it.

Um, and you don't identify as that.

And I, and I think that's a, I
think that's a key part for people

and being able to deal with it is
surround themselves with others who

can accept just like Jason earlier.

I get it.

Whatever let's work through will,
whatever the reason might be.

And, uh, let's plug on.

We still got a job to do.

We still got things to do.

Yeah.

The mindset is not succumbing to
feel illness and thinking like,

this is all too overwhelming.

It's like, okay, this is, this
is a natural part of the process.

Oh, go up the next one.

Well, and that's what

I talk about.

Like if I'm, if my mental health is
suffering and I realize I don't have

the capacity for it, I just bring
the grades back or I top rope, or I

have Steph rope gun and I'm second.

And cause that is for me working through
it because knowing that my resilience,

so we call it your window of tolerance.

Okay.

Your window of tolerance has narrowed.

Right?

So things for me like hunger,
lack of sleep, um, anger, whatever

they can just contributing
factors for a window of tolerance.

Say for example, um, Like commuting,
Squamish, Vancouver, and all of a

sudden you're getting road rage,
for example, because your window

of tolerance is so limited, right.

Things that affect it.

So for me, um, knowing that
my window of tolerance is

limited, I still want to go out.

I still want to climb.

I just dial it back.

So that's humbling for me because I
would still push that in the past.

But now I just dial it back and go.

I'm just in the present.

I'm in the moment and
it's good to be here.

Yeah.

Because the altered alternative
to that is you just don't go out.

Yes.

And then that perpetuates itself
and it's a compounding issue.

There is a, um, uh, there's a
fellow, he's a past podcast.

Guests didn't know I was talking
to him on Christmas day and he

says, we're texting back and forth.

And he said, well, how are you doing?

And he's like, oh, not too good.

What's going on?

He says, one of.

One of the people that follows
him on social media, uh, decided

to, uh, try and take his own life.

They're going to see how he's
doing and how he's making out.

And I shot himself, shot
himself in the, in the head.

And, uh, I guess under the chin and, uh,
uh, this fellow end up surviving, um,

Canadian forces sniper, I believe it was,
uh, this fellow now, uh, the fellow who

shot himself, he's very open about it.

And he was on social media.

He says, you know, in the back of my
head, I just, right before I pulled

the trigger, I heard this voice.

This has changed the angle.

And he did, he did slightly change
the angle and he looks like he's lost

his eye and has a hard time talking.

Now he's surviving says, you know,
the second he pulled the tree.

Immediately regretted it.

And he's trying to self-rescue
and he's calling up nine 11.

He spitting out teeth and trying
to coordinate on his location.

And, uh, he says the best thing
that I could tell anybody is,

you know, just stop reassess.

You will regret it.

Um, now looking at how
that impacts other people.

I think Jordan, Peter says, sin
says never underestimate the whole.

Your absence will leave
in other people's lives.

Um, the individual who I was a
past podcast guest with, uh, does

a weekly mental health walks.

We just get out into the woods.

They get out into a park.

It's not a race, the guys Uber fit.

Uh, but it's just everyone.

Come on up.

We'll have a little bit of
a, a chat ahead of time.

We'd go for a walk.

And there's a, uh, there is.

It's interesting.

Looking at how people being able
to share their stories, just like

this, uh, reaches others and can
affect a positive change that has

ripples that go go well beyond them.

So I

belonging.

If you look at it, all, it
all comes down to belonging.

I agree into a point it's like, you
know, this opportunity is here because

you know, we're friends and, but
we like to be being in that circle.

You know, if I didn't want, like
we didn't get oh, and I would be

like, Hey, chase, you go do that.

He's like, but this guy does
stuff that I like following him.

And, you know, it's that sort of stuff.

And it's the same with your man's there.

Say, Mike, let's go for a run or a walk.

It's just a walk.

We'll talk.

But it w it sat now, oh,
belonging to something.

That's a walking group with people.

That share the similar sort of issues
may be, or somebody where somebody

lives, but they now belong to something.

Jason belongs to a community and a very
small one by the time he's finished and

he's got every qualifications go in.

It's like a real small one,
but he belongs to a community.

I belong.

Yeah.

I dabble in a couple of communities,
but I belong to a community.

I have, I have, for me, I have
a reason to keep going forward.

Not just my son, you know, uh, um, while
both my boys, um, it's for me, you got

to have something for yourself as well.

You know, when you've got
children, they're your priorities.

But when it's you as an individual,
if you're not running or working

at, at that maximum or at that
level where it's good for you.

That affects behind you.

So if it means I have to go out for
a walk with this guy in this group,

I now belong to this group and I feel
a bit better about myself because

I'm having conversations and chats.

Like we are now like our walk area
and I'll walk on tippy toes to speak.

Sure.

Because it felt good to sit
here and have that conversation.

We've like, it's guys, you know,
we wouldn't do this normally in the

old days and or publicly like, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that's that it's
belonging to community.

So when people start, you know, getting in
contact with you on, on social media, Hey,

you know, this podcast, blah, blah, blah.

It was brilliant.

I like this guy.

Cause he touched on that, but they belong
to your podcast and your community.

We all belong to something.

And it's that we've mental health.

If I, if we can people belong
here, I don't want people to take

their lives as hard as it gets.

Everybody has a reason
for being on this planet.

You've just not found it yet.

Or you're just not with the right
tribe or group where you belong.

And that level of belonging, it reminds
me of, um, crocodile Dundee when they're

talking about, uh, a shrink and, uh,
I think they're in New York and shrink

what Sarah psychiatrist, what do they do?

Oh, you know, you pay them money,
you sit down, they tell them their

problems and they help you through it.

And you'd see them every
week or, or whatever it is.

Right.

Don't you have anything like that?

And in where is he from walkabout Creek?

And he says, oh no, we got, I forget
the guy's name, Bruce, the bartender.

He'd tell Bruce your problems.

Bruce tells everybody else.

No more problem he's passed on.

But that level of understanding
shared understanding so much.

So often people just get it in their head
and they're carrying it all by themselves.

And that level of belonging that you talk
about, whether it's with the, the mountain

groups or the marathon runners or whatever
it might be, uh, is bigger than you.

And it allows, I, I was asked to
do a talk and I'm still debating

whether I'll do it or not.

And I've just kinda been thinking
of the back of my head about,

um, uh, what I'll talk on.

But I essentially it's, it's along
the lines of mental health, um,

that they've they've asked for.

And, uh, w one of the concepts that
I was thinking of everyone says, oh,

you got to work on yourself, right?

You got to take care of yourself.

You've got to work on yourself and you
can't help others until you help yourself.

And I think, well, yes, to a degree,
but quite often the one thing that's

going to help you more than anything
else is being of service to others.

In some small degree or another being
able to help others will bring you.

A level of value that you might
not be able to find if all

you're doing is concentrating
on yourself and your own issues.

Um, I haven't got that one dialed
in yet, but I'd be interested

to hear what your guys' thoughts

are.

Well, you know, drive, um, I've, uh,
worked the last few years at heli

ski guide and a mechanized cat guide.

And, um, I struggled
with what my role was.

I'm like, why am I doing this?

Like, I understand the touring
ski guide and you're in the moment

and you're taking a group out.

Um, but the heli ski
guiding, I'm just like what?

This is kind of, how am
I helping these people?

This is, these are even
smaller than the 1%, right?

What am I trying to get out of this?

Like, how can I maybe help facilitate.

Them.

And, uh, I've a friend up in Whistler
and, uh, he's a trauma counselor and

I was chatting with him about it.

And he said, Jay, like your
connection you make, cause this

is just a one day operation.

This connection you make with these
clients, you don't know what the role is.

You don't know what they're,
where they're coming from.

You don't know where they're going.

You don't know what they're going through,
but that connection you make with them

that day will influence and affect
them positively or maybe negatively.

Right.

And I thought about that
and I took away from that.

And then, um, I think this one time we're
waiting to get picked up for the hell.

And I was connecting with this
gentleman from Australia of all things.

And I was telling them, you know,
like my journey from the military,

the fire service, working in adventure
therapy with Delaware bound veterans,

maybe looking at my own program
for first responders, um, where my

journey's taken me and that, and the
connection I had and it hits something.

I think I exchanged details with
him and I got an email from them.

Maybe six months later, they judge that
day we spent together was phenomenal.

Um, I wasn't doing that well, uh, but
just to let you know, like I'm a CEO of

a company that has over 300 employees and
that day we spent was able for me to go

back, maybe get the help he needed, but
he's able to keep going, keep everyone

employed, keep the company going.

Um, and that actually hit home
for me like that one day, that one

moment that connection with that
individual, um, is purpose, right?

And it could be that seven days in larger.

It could be that one day, um, on a back
country ski tour, or it could be, um,

on a bus and we were talking about you.

And I talked about that gentleman.

You said where, you know, he,
at the last minute said, um,

aim off, you know, injury.

And I said, it's interesting because
you and I chatted just before

that, I had watched something on
YouTube, about a kid who took the

bus to the, um, golden gate bridge.

And he was crying on the bus and
people were making fun of him.

Not anyone checked in with them
and said, what's going on, got

off the bus and jumped off.

And the moment he jumped, he's
like, I made a mistake and he

survived, but he was a mess.

Right.

But not a single person on the bus
showed him any empathy, compassion,

nobody checked in with them.

So we don't know where this
moment connection's going to be.

You know, it could be
that person on the bus.

It could be, um, the client, it could
be that, um, follow her an Instagram.

Sure.

Right.

So you just don't know
where it's coming or going.

I agree.

Viktor Frankl.

He was the father of modern logotherapy.

You guys have heard of him?

No.

If it's in a book, not

me.

Okay.

He wrote a book called
man's search for meaning.

I think it

was called.

Just interrupt here though.

I am.

I'm so impressed with Travis is able to
remember like the title, the phrase it is.

I can get some stuff down, but Travis
is just like author book and then boom.

Yeah.

Have me remember a name
right after I meet you.

Come on.

Yeah,

we have this chat in the, uh,
in the truck coming up here.

Okay.

Yeah, but

books.

Yeah.

Books.

You don't do no.

All get.

And then that's it never in my head.

I'm just like, I can't carry on

all life like that or

whole life, whole life like that.

Where is it?

Show me video.

Yeah.

Or do it and I'll do
it or I'll remember it.

See, I I'm very much a do it.

You can show me, you can tell me you can.

And until I do it, even as a kid,
Travis, don't touch that stove.

It's hot.

Like how hot, like,
what do you mean by hot?

Let me see.

Oh, that's what you mean by hot.

Got it.

Right.

I remember as a kid, I stuck my
hand into a, um, uh, an electric

popcorn machine, but not a hot air,
one, it heated up oil inside there.

And you put your stuff in there.

And I had, um, um, blusters all up and
down my arms and apparently I'm surprised

I don't have big scabby scars on my arms.

I guess I'm gonna get healer, but,
uh, I have always been that way.

I have to do it myself.

You can tell me till
you're blue in the face.

Right.

Jay's could be like, okay, Travis, just
your hand, hold like this pivot like that.

And I actually have to do it myself before
it'll ever sink in just dance like that.

I guess

I wouldn't say dens.

We've all got a little
different capacity and we

different.

Exactly.

Some people are at the front of
the train, so people are at the

back, but we're all moving along.

Right.

Um, but yeah, with the, uh, Viktor Frankl
fellow, so atrocities concentration

camps, he was in, uh, uh, need took it
from an analytical perspective while

everyone has families dying, his friends
are dying, is surrounded by people.

Who've got everything taken from them and
some people can't even get out of bed.

Some people are just beside themselves
with grief and other people are using.

Able to crack a joke or to find
humor in odd little things.

And he thinks like, how is it that we're
all subjected to the exact same thing.

And some people are affected
so differently than others.

And, you know, I think comes down
to mental resiliency and past life

experiences and where your mindset
and what you can picture in that

support group of what you think you
have around whether real or imagined.

Um, but he had that famous quote.

The one thing you can't take from
me is the way that I choose to

respond to what you do to me.

The last of life's great freedoms
is one's ability to choose their own

attitude in any given circumstance and
being able to choose that attitude and

knowing that that's a choice, right?

And if I'm happy, that's a choice.

If I'm mad, that's a choice.

Like you can do something to me that
could make me mad, but you that's

me choosing to be mad understanding
why you have that level of control.

I think is.

Incredibly powerful in being
able to kind of deal with whether

it's anxiety or depression or
PTSD or whatever it might be.

I think that's a very powerful part of it.

Having that group, that support network,
I think is like, what you're talking

about there, Dean is incredibly powerful
and he had one story of a, um, of a

man who came in and, uh, his wife had
passed away and he just didn't see any

reason for living any longer and all
the hardships that he was enduring.

And he says, well, what
if your wife had lived?

Right.

And you'd been the one who died
in this situation, she'd be in

during all of these hardships.

Wouldn't she say, well, yeah,
he says, well, then you've kind

of saved her from all of that.

Didn't you.

And now you're carrying that.

Uh, he talks about finding meaning in
suffering and there, there is a level of

meaning be by living for others or find
finding that meaning either in suffering

and it enjoy it in whatever it might be.

And so I've been playing with that concept
a little bit in the back of my head.

And I mean, since we're talking openly
here, I figured I'd just throw it

out to see kind of what your thoughts
from your life experiences were.

If, if that's a, uh,

he's looking

at me, don't say certain things,
Dean, keep some of the things in

the book and keep them closed and
put under like under the little

chair.

Well didn't you guys have a
chat or the way you Anna, but

what was not allowed to be said?

Yeah, that's his nervous laugh
because he thinks now I'm going to

tell you, but we've had that shot.

So I respect.

We have quite well.

I mean the British
soldiers are, are an inch.

Group.

So there are certain things that are sets
us apart, I would say from other armies.

Sure.

So it's all sense of humor.

Um, the battlefield is a horrible
place and the, the British

soldier will make a joke about it.

But to anybody outside of that
circle, they'll think really,

but for them to operate and keep
moving, they have to do something.

They have to, if they would just sit there
and compute, like, what have I just seen?

What what's just happened,
then we start to slow down.

So it's like quick joke.

Like let's get on an E and
you, so, but we take that with.

Forever mentality, laugh joke.

And it's like, oh, do you
see what he last night?

Do you sit?

See Dean was wearing a dress.

Oh, he does that every weekend,
you know, as a joke, but in the

real world, it was like, why do
you wear a dress every weekend?

It's like, oh no, no, no,
he's just, it was female.

But why do you revert
to address all the time?

Right.

Well, yeah.

Why do

you know what I mean?

Why do you wear a dress?

I wasn't aware of this.

We're all inclusive.

Well, somebody left it when they
stayed and they stayed one night.

Um, so yeah, that, yeah, I've become
a bit of a, because a bit of a joke.

Yeah.

But then you just sort of, you
carry that on because everybody's

laughing about it and that becomes
the comedy moment all the time.

You're talking about something in a way
that's a little bit healthier than either

not talking about it or getting down on

it.

Well, Well, we keep revert.

Well, I keep reverting back to the time
in the army, but when my, not my darkest

moment, but there was some times where
I'd stay in my room and drink because

you don't talk about it to anybody.

Because in the old days, a little
bit of army, it was you work hard.

You play hard.

We go to war, we come
home, we see our families.

We go drink, you go down to
the NAFI, you go to the Ms.

And then you go downtown and he just
would keep, keep repeating this cycle

over and over and over and over again.

So then if you have got an issue,
you're not down the corporate

mess, you're at your own home.

You've got a bar downstairs in your
cellar or in your room, in a block,

and you're drinking with yourself and
you're having your moments to yourself.

And you're thinking if I go out there
and start talking to somebody about this,

they've got, they might have their own
problem, or they're going to laugh at me.

It's like, I've got men under me
that I need to be in command of.

Can't go and talk to any of them.

But if I go talk to the above me,
are they going to think I'm weak?

Right.

So I can't talk to them.

So what do I do?

I just sit there and get
drunk, wake up next morning.

Hmm.

Keep it in.

But the stories that we could tell about
our adventures, um, some of them have

to be kept under the, and in the box.

Cause Jason will never allow
me to come back to Canada.

I would never be able to climb again.

He would never talk to me again.

Uh, but Jason, feel free
to share any of mine.

Um,

my, my granddad on my mom's side
was in there all kinda air grow

cane air force, world war two.

And he was a crew chief or flight
engineer on a Lancaster bomber.

And, uh, he got wounded to.

Flack or shrapnel.

And, but I remember my mother telling me
that Christmases were horrible, that you

grew up in, and there was three sisters
and two brothers and the brothers were

younger and one wasn't born at the time.

And my mom had nothing good
to say about her, her life

growing up and her, um, family.

Right.

It wasn't until I started struggling
with my mental health coming out, maybe

Afghanistan, um, Iraq, um, fire service,
um, that I started to analyze the

support network that my granddad had.

And he didn't have any, he
didn't have it at that time.

Um, there was the sergeant's mess and
the Legion metros, and that was it.

Right?

So like Dina was saying at that
time he just self medicated.

He went to the sergeant's
mess and got himself.

Went to Legion came home and now his
wife is three adult daughters, or

teenage daughters are waiting for him
and he smashed the Christmas tree up.

Right.

So now I'm sitting there analyzing
my own journey where I've been in.

And, um, my, uh, my uncle Bruce just
passed away a couple of years ago, but

he was the last living, um, uh, son
and cause my mom passed away everybody.

Right.

And I said to him, and I
said, uncle Bruce, he doesn't

remember any of these stories.

Cause he was very young.

So by the time everybody moved
out, it was just him and his dad.

And he had efficient buddy doesn't
remember any of the anger, the drinking.

But I said, uncle Bruce, you know,
there was nothing in place for your dad.

There was nothing in place.

He all he had was avoidance and
drinking and he went through this on

his own and obviously the family brunt.

So I said, you know, I'm not
trying to justify what happened,

but I'm just saying, I just
want everyone in the family.

To appreciate and understand
that he was struggling.

There was no support network for them.

And like Dean said, like in
2000, like we joined 99 and I

left 2009 a little bit longer.

There wasn't any support network.

I had a Padre cause I didn't go with
my unit when I deployed Afghanistan

with a different unit came back.

So I might even with the guys that
I served with, and this was 2007,

the Padre, my unit debriefed me.

I went home for three months on leave.

And that was it.

That was it.

Right.

And like I said, I told you, like
I was in a firefight Taliban sniper

meshed my head six inches before I
came home or 24 hours to go on the

juror, spelt the court, I'd go by.

And I'm like, whoa, that's close.

Right.

They literally off that back to
Tewkesbury check-in with mother

and on a flight back to Canada.

And that was normal.

Right after devices.

And that was 2007.

All right.

It's not that long ago.

Not that long ago.

And even like in the fire
service, I got all thing.

Mental health was recognized
about 2015, really supportive by

WCB, getting involved, you know,
so it's all relatively newer

for us.

It's it's still new.

Um, I remember I had six sessions with
the CPN, so I'll be open what's the CPN.

It was like a counseling.

Okay.

So I'd gone home.

I was married at the
time, uh, to Guernsey.

So flight from Germany back
to UK, back to Guernsey.

Um, and it was two weeks leave.

I didn't go back.

Ah, W Tina, the wife was watching
a program on the telly and

I had a little bit to drink.

And then next minute something had
happened on the tele I'm under the table.

And she's like, what you're doing?

I was like, sorry, what?

I just, I, at the moment.

So I said, I can't go back.

I can't talk to anybody in Africa.

So she rang POC and she rang the
battalion, said like, you know, my

husband's struggling, blah, blah, blah.

Um, and they were like, right.

Look getting back, you know,
um, and we'll get him some help.

And she says, look, it's
private in Guernsey.

She's got health package.

So I goes to this doctor, um,
start chatting to him and he

says, can I be honest with you?

I said, yeah, please do.

He says, I can't have, I
don't know what you're doing.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Not, this is not my field.

I don't know how I help you.

You know, maybe you get some counseling
or, or something or I give you some

pills and I'm very much no pills for me.

Thank you.

So then I get sent back to battalion,
get picked up at the airport, get back.

Um, and Tina said like, I'll send him
back as long as he's going to get help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're going to help him.

We've got to help him gets back.

Six weeks later, he is on the phone to me.

I'm drunk in my room.

She's like he getting help.

It was like, yeah, it's all right.

It's all right.

I got this.

She said, you're not, are you?

I says, no, no, it's what
I've got this, but I wasn't.

So then eventually I got told
I had, um, not an interview.

I had a meeting at this place
with a, like, not a shrink.

It wasn't a shrink, it
was just a counselor.

So I was like, okay, cool.

Where is it?

Free buildings.

From my bunk house on our
camp was the CPN office.

I could have walked down there.

If somebody told me it was then
I'll book booked him himself.

Well, free doors, free buildings down.

Then when I get in and I start talking to
this chap he's ex ref nurse or something.

So he's like, you know, so, you
know, what do you want to talk about?

So nothing really.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't really want to talk to you.

I'm honest.

So he says, I'll just tell you a
bit about my background and then

you just start, oh, he's XRF.

I've got these forces, so it can feel
a little bit uncomfortable, started

talking, but honestly, back then, after
the fourth session with him, I'm sat

there listening to his problems about
his wife, leaving him and his daughter

going out in the local town and the
boys meeting her a lot of the times.

And I'm like, I've got, get.

Hmm, this isn't helping me whatsoever.

So he said, so he says scope of Nugent.

He says, do you think these
sessions have been answered yet?

Thank you.

Brilliant.

I'm good.

And I just walked out the door.

They still, and then we've,
we've Chris, our friend.

So since 2014, Chris has had five
attempts on his life and I've been to

the hospital where the NHS has signed
up to the Arden armed forces, covenant.

And I've been gaslighted a lot.

He's a veteran.

He needs help.

Yeah.

Just get him to sit over there.

And one of his triggers is
a baby cry, babies crying

because of a situation he had.

So we're in this hospital,
these babies cry.

He is now got his hand and he's
digging his nails into his face.

He's trying to peel his face off and
I'm sat there watching this and I'm

like, damn, let's get him outside.

Some fresh air, get him outside.

He's crying now he's feet.

He can't do this.

And I'm thinking, so it goes in.

I said, have you not got.

Or somewhere I can sit him down away
from everybody else so that I can

just, he can be in his own environment.

I can just calm him down.

She's like, oh, I'll go and look.

So let's go low.

And then they get this room.

We sit in, there, comes down until
I'm like, well, when are we're

going to get this guy seen to, you
know, we, we don't have, it's not

about being priority or anything.

The reason there isn't a book.

This is how we solve this problem.

Or this is how we deal
with we're all making.

It sounds horrible.

We're all making it up as we go along
to a point we're following certain.

Oh, so the old book from 1950 said, we do
this, this, this, that, that don't work.

DSM three said this, but DSM four
contradicts now DSM five puts it in the

cluster group or whatever it might be.

So

what works for me is if I'm
out in the Hulu or in the wilds

and go for what Travis come
for a walk with me, let's chat.

How's everything.

Well, Dean, do you know what I don't make?

Tommy will keep walking
until you finished,

you know, how few people actually have
that in their life or have somebody

that they can do that with them.

That's

that's

that, that's that thing.

And this is where Chris had that with me.

And I have that with Chris and I have that
with Jason, that Jason needs to go for

what Jay's can we not do anything today?

But he knows you need that moment.

You want to talk about it?

Yeah.

Do or don't.

And that, and that's that thing
of that, again, belonging, even

if it's one person that you feel
like belonging, he's got my back.

I know that if it's I'm back in the
UK and it's crap, I'll ring him up and

I could ring him up at six o'clock.

I know I'm going to get an air fall
for bringing him up at six o'clock

straight away, but he will listen to.

Yeah.

And, and that's the one thing I
learned when I was helping Chris.

I couldn't help him the way
he wanted me to help him.

I couldn't wave a wand
and all of it go away.

I needed him to do some things as well.

Yes.

And, and that was, it will always
be provers and I'll help you.

And I've got your back.

I need you to do some things as well.

And that's what I've learned.

It's that we all, we all want help and
support, but we need to do something

to get to them points as well.

I agree.

Even if it's small things, yeah.

Diet, exercise, sleep, then
watch the news hydration.

Don't watch the news, get off
your device, get off social media,

whatever, just small things.

And maybe it's not, maybe,
maybe you're stuck on that.

And that's the, where you have to be.

Okay.

Maybe it's 10 minutes,
maybe it's 15 minutes.

And just, how do you build that?

Plug away?

Step-by-step yeah.

It's interesting.

You say that Java, I can't take
credit to it, but there's big

four that I, I advocate for.

And it was a Merican veteran that was
on maybe, um, YouTube or something.

And he said fitness fanatic.

And he said like in ourselves
and, and our peers, all there's

four things that we can monitor.

Um, we need purpose, healthy lifestyle.

So diet, exercise, substance
control, and sleep.

And those are the big four
that I monitor myself, others.

So per purpose, healthy lifestyle,
substance controls, control, and sleep.

So sleeps begging.

And if any, one of those
goes, then the rest crumble.

So those are the four
things that I recommend.

I, we look for.

So we're not mental health professionals,
so we know one of those are out.

It's not our job to.

Um, the fix that, but that's where
we have to be referred or refer our

friends do, Hey, something's out.

Maybe, you know, we're there to listen,
but basically those four are kind of like

the pillars of, um, how I move forward.

Um, and I think it's really important.

Like, like Dean says to be there for each
other, but it's really important to be a

witness to the chaos and not add to the
chaos that, that individual's going to.

That's really critical.

Right.

So like the fellow there,
who's adding to the chaos.

So you're speaking

with yeah.

And that's really important.

And that has a lot to do.

Like, um, I can relate, um,
there's one time in Afghanistan.

That's not the time to inject that in.

Right.

It's got nothing to do with
you, what they do at the time.

And that actually, that can also go
to like, you're talking about TIF and,

um, Tiff's a great, great lady lover.

Um, Uh, but, but when women,
not women, I've learned the hard

way comes to you with a problem.

They're not looking for solutions.

Yes.

Unless they ass they're venting.

Right.

And I, and I had to learn that
with, um, uh, my ex lawyer.

She had some problems, family
problems, and it would be a

broken record over and over.

And then I'm say, I don't
want to hear it anymore.

Right.

But what they're doing, or what I've
learned is they're venting and that's

not just partners that just friends.

Right.

Um, they're venting and they're
not asking for a solution.

Right.

Unless they say, what do
you think that's your time?

Yes.

To inject.

Right.

It's a very difficult life skill
that most people that I seem to

encounter have a very limited grasp on.

Most people will listen long enough
to get their idea that they want

to say what they want to say next.

That reminds you of the
time when the here's, when.

And they don't truly just listen
to what somebody else is saying.

Obviously, in a podcast scenario like
this, we got, we have to have a little bit

more thinking what's where are we going?

Make sure we come back full circle.

We got the pen and paper out here to
make sure that we're, um, we have some

continuity as it goes through, but in
regular, everyday interactions with

your friends, just sitting down and
listening and being happy for your friend

in a, uh, in a meaningful way, I'd say
those number of people in your life.

You could count them on a hand
on one hand that are, that

are able to do that for you.

That's been my experience.

I can go with that one.

Not many people do just sit and listen.

They want to put their input
on what they believe is right.

Or this is how you should do it.

It's like, whoa.

That's really good Dean.

That's like the time I went to and okay.

I was just talking about something.

I was really happy and proud about.

Right.

Maybe I can have that moment.

We can give it a little bit of time and
then we can talk about your moment, right?

Yeah.

You know, bringing up, uh, a mutual
friend for, um, for us is my friend

Richie and you've met runtime and that's
one thing I can little Richard, you

know, he's a great, great little dude.

Uh,

ex JTF too.

No, no, he right on selection.

Okay.

I thought he did.

He went on selection.

It wasn't for him, whereas CCR, but
you know, he went to Afghanistan, but

he became, I wanted to go star tech
and I met him on that ski traverse.

And we're sitting there talking about,
um, he wanted to go, go on SARS tech

selection, but the recruiting there
was telling me how to transfer, to

become a medic and go to Petawawa.

And he was about to get,
become a new, um, uh, husband.

His wife was from Whistler
and I'm listening to story.

I'm like, dude, Do not
go to pedal, do not.

They're lying to you.

They're trying to get you going
to be a medic in Petawawa and

not anything wrong with that.

But you live in Whistler and you're going
to move to Petawawa and I focused him and

he, um, uh, he became a firefighter, did
all his training, firefighter and Whistler

dream job, two kids, awesome wife.

But my point about Richie is that
I don't have a bigger support that

celebrates my wins like Richie
and the guiding his passion is the

mountains, but he's gotta be a career
like after his family and kids.

And sure.

He's getting more and more out now as
the kids get older, but Richie, I just,

he celebrates every exam I passed and
like, it's like, he he's passed too.

That's awesome.

You know, and I get the support
to hold those people close.

Yeah.

But just, I don't, this guy just
celebrates to the next level.

It's crazy how that's awesome.

How in depth did it is for him?

So it's like, Hey Richie,

well, in, in those big four that
you put there, I would say finding

proper sleep is going to be, uh, an
easier one for people to accomplish.

So there's the Zopiclone diamond,
Hydra, Naples, whatever, but, uh,

melatonin, but there's something
that's achievable and, um, measurable.

Right.

Um, what was the substance?

Substance control?

Substance control.

Okay.

I get it.

Yeah.

Maybe if you like to have a couple
of drinks, maybe social media, right.

It's a

lot, lots fall into that bracket.

Right.

But there's something that's measurable.

Okay.

Uh, what was the other.

Not progressed, healthy lifestyle, healthy
lifestyle, so exercising, eating properly.

Um, again, measurable.

I think the tough one in all of those
for people would be come back and we're

going to come full circle here is purpose.

Right.

And what do you find
meaningful for yourself?

Cause what I find meaningful
might not be the same as what

somebody else finds meaningful.

What I, my aspirations in life,
I want to have a strong family.

I want my kids to do well
on my wife to do well.

And I tell them all the time you
can throw a match in the house

and burn everything to the ground.

We can rebuild that.

Right.

But having that family
network needs to be intact.

That's built through trust
and it's built through, um,

consistently striving to do better.

Uh, that's a huge level
of purpose for myself.

Some people say, well,
I don't have the family.

Right.

Or maybe your purpose is in the mountains.

Well, you know, I'm not really, I'm
not a mountain person, maybe some

running, oh, my knees are terrible.

Right.

Uh, finding that level of purpose
is I think probably the one piece

of that, that, uh, four piece puzzle
that might be the sticking block

for people that are in an area where
they just can't see past the horizon.

They can't see that next hurdle.

And they think, oh, I've got no purpose.

I don't have all of these things.

Well, Jordan Peterson mentioned in one
of his podcasts about when he's advising

some of these clients that have shut
down or they're not working or they're at

home or whatever, he's like find a job.

Right.

So that purpose could be
simply as finding a job.

Right.

Um, I know when I first came back
from the UK, I took six months

off to do all my fire courses.

I had a savings and I could do
it, but at six months my dad said

to me, he's like, you need a job.

Like I need a job.

And, um, I, cause it took another six
months to get hired and I had lined

up to be an interview for ski patrol.

And one of the, one of the Hills
here, uh, come in in the summer, it

didn't, it ended up not working out.

I remember this.

Yeah.

And I applied to be, um, OFE three
first data tenant at Burnaby city

came for the interview and I said, um,
came very apparent in the interview.

I wasn't there for first data attendance.

I'm like, what's this interview for?

They go labor on the blacktop career.

And I'm like, what do you pay an hour?

And this is like 2009.

They're like 26, 50 or $28.

Sure.

I'm like, I'm in.

Yep.

And it actually helped me.

Um, cause one of the interview
questions I had with, uh, The

flanker for fire service was how
are you going to handle the snorty?

You're a platoon Sergeant and the
British army and all this other stuff.

And I said, well, if you look there
since I've been working on, uh, Burnaby

city labor on the blacktop roads crew,
and when they said kid get in the

back of the dump truck, shovel up the
rest of the blacktop, um, I did that.

So I have no problem.

You want me to look after seven other
firefighters in the hall as a probation?

I got it.

Cleaned toilets, anything else?

Right.

So it definitely set me up for success.

Um, within the Vancouver fire
was filing that humbling job,

um, and being the bottom guy.

Yeah, no

that's purpose putting the ego aside.

You can put that ego aside.

Ah, it doesn't pay enough.

I don't want it.

Well, we've been chatting
for almost two hours.

So God's going to have to do some editing

here.

Big style part one part two.

Is there anything we should
touch on before we wrap up?

Well, I'm looking forward to whatever
meal Tiff's walking up, but yeah,

that's breaking bread with our
friends is very important, right.

The connection.

But, um, yeah, I think Dean is hitting
home on Saturday, maybe back in August.

We'll see,

I got a Coldplay concept first.

Not plugging copay.

But a Coldplay and then I need to
check the dates and I want to come back

out.

Well, well, listen to the, uh, uh,
response we get from the listeners.

And, uh, maybe when he come on back,
if a had a fun time, we can, uh,

pick up where we left off and catch
up on the new adventures that we've

had between now and then loads.

Gentlemen.

Thank you very much.

Thank

you for having.