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"There's a big difference between consent and attention — you still have to earn the attention." - Lauren Meyer
Lauren Meyer, CMO of SocketLabs, joins Jacqueline Freedman on The Hot Seat to discuss what marketers get wrong about email. She shares how to earn real engagement, why "inbox placement rate" is a lie, and how to prove email's value inside your org. A must-listen for anyone in marketing ops, lifecycle, or Martech leadership who wants to make smarter, data-backed email decisions.
This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch.
Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? See what Hightouch can do for you at hightouch.com/msom.
Highlights
Learn why consent alone isn't enough and how to earn lasting attention.
Discover how to win internal buy-in with small, proof-of-concept projects.
Understand why marketers must accept churn and stay consistent.
Cut through noisy metrics and drop "inbox placement rate" from your reports.
Get smart about measuring engagement post-MPP using replies, site visits, and revenue.
Spot vendor red flags: no one can "guarantee" inbox placement.
Episode Breakdown
2:16 — Epic Fail Story: The migration mistake that led to 3,000 spam complaints and a deliverability meltdown.
8:15 — The Consent Myth: Why consent is just the handshake and attention is the real battle.
12:54 — Fighting for Email: How to advocate for email internally with small proof-of-concept wins.
15:08 — Data Hygiene: The B2B vs. B2C data gap and why you should offer personal email sign-ups.
17:52 — Data Overload: Why giving marketers too much data leads to paralysis and bad assumptions.
19:52 — The Metric to Ban: Why "Inbox Placement Rate" is unreliable and based on robot "seed testing."
22:06 — Vendor Red Flags: What to ask about human support and why no one can guarantee inbox placement.
25:02 — Post-APP World: How to measure engagement through conversions, replies, and site visits, not opens.
33:09 — AI Limits: The doctor vs. over-the-counter analogy for AI in deliverability.
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Creators and Guests
What is Making Sense of Martech?
Unfiltered takes on the biggest shifts in marketing technology. We spotlight what matters, who's leading (or lagging), and what's next. In Martech, clarity is power — and we're here to deliver it.
00;00;06;09 - 00;00;28;27
Speaker 1
Welcome to the making sense of market forecast for interview leaders and put them in the hot seat. I'm Jack Friedman, founder of Monarch and global head of Advisors. With more typically less time than a week more and the chief marketing officer, something that's a little bit about her. First, with a background in deliverability and time use strategy, she's built a reputation of transforming complex data into clear, actionable insights.
00;00;28;27 - 00;00;49;22
Speaker 1
As a former vice chair at MOG and the voice behind Send It Right, she champions content based marketing and prioritizes trust in transparency and compliance. Welcome. Thank you very much for having me. It's nice to be here. I can champion all those things you mention. Let's go. Awesome. Well, it turns off. We'll begin with a few quick questions to fire things up like a good IP warming.
00;00;49;24 - 00;01;07;21
Speaker 1
So first and foremost, what is the first martech tool you've ever use from year to year? Okay, so I don't know if access counts, but I used to do a lot of success database work in my first job because I was processing like suppression files for a whole bunch of companies. But let's move on to other things like working in affiliate marketing space.
00;01;07;21 - 00;01;26;15
Speaker 1
So the company I work for was using simultaneously get response now medium Toronto Mac Mini Vertical response I guess like any ISP that kind of existed back in 2007. So yeah, I got to use all of them. It was slim pickings then compared to today, that's for sure. All right. What is one marketing buzz word you wish you could ban?
00;01;26;29 - 00;01;43;12
Speaker 1
It would have to be the blast. It it's just just so aggressive. I just you know, it's one of those like the first email provider that I was using for my Send It Right newsletter, used to call it a blast. And they've actually changed that to something that's much more positive now. So it's one of those I feel pretty good about that like that's going on right now.
00;01;43;15 - 00;02;16;05
Speaker 1
Again, just announced few made a change for the better Squarespace in February but I'll Squarespace before that I'm glad they did the right thing. So what is the biggest marketing mistake or mess up you've witnessed or done? Okay, well, thankfully it wasn't my mistake, but when I was working for a past ISP as like the head of Deliverability, I was dealing with the aftermath of one of our customers who had this transition from their past ISP and without them knowing it, that past DSP had been like automatically handling their suppression files and all that.
00;02;16;05 - 00;02;39;00
Speaker 1
The people that were complaining and unsubscribing for the entire time they were there. And I think, you know what this is going to once they transition is they didn't download and apply that suppression file to their contact. Let's do on their first send through us they generally get a little more than like I think like 3000 spam complaints and it was such a massive number like on like 200,000, you know, contacts up there sending to that.
00;02;39;00 - 00;02;55;08
Speaker 1
They didn't believe it, right? Like they were like this must be a reporting issue. The the year. This must be something you were doing. And we're like even I was like, a guy is like, this is wrong. This can't be right. Lo and behold, it was correct. It's just that those real complaints were coming from people who had been suppressed in some cases.
00;02;55;14 - 00;03;18;03
Speaker 1
Hamilton Gal two And like more than two years and some of the policies were really, really painful. Right. Makes me very gotten on asked for quick migration advice my first thing in fact up here and subscribe list no matter what the only thing that's potentially even more important than your actual contact list is setting records on that those like patient specific thinking.
00;03;18;16 - 00;03;38;24
Speaker 1
Yeah I think you. Okay so what is one tool you can not live without as a deliverability? First, I have it right and I think a lot of times people are going to probably go to like Google Postmaster Tools, which is very important. Everyone should be signing up for that. But my favorite one is about my email. So it's actually you can go to it at about my dot.
00;03;38;25 - 00;03;57;17
Speaker 1
You know, that's the amount that would be the website address. This is something that was created by Steve Adkins from word to the wise, and it just kind of gives you that like immediate reality check on your email configuration. And it was, you know, it's built by Steve, who is a very technical person. He's smart. I trust him to like kind of understand compliance and all the nuances of those different mailbox providers.
00;03;57;17 - 00;04;18;10
Speaker 1
And Marcel Becker from Yahoo! He's the postmaster there, actually previously said, like, if it passes about my email, it's very likely compliant with Yahoo! Right. So I think any large scale sender who's ever had an issue or should plug it in, you know, you just add it to your contact list. It's just a you so I love a free tool that is, you know, approved by the postmasters.
00;04;18;10 - 00;04;37;14
Speaker 1
Exactly. When they ask for it, you don't get that stamp of approval very often now. Exactly. I just rapidfire question to ask for everyone who is someone you admire, whether it's professional. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to go with Jennifer Knispel on Lance, who is within the email industry. Hopefully, you know, a bunch of you know, how she's currently working at Tick Box.
00;04;37;14 - 00;04;57;14
Speaker 1
She's got this like sense of calm and she's patient with customers and with everybody else. She cares a lot about her role and the responsibility of doing right by me. Now I'm like working in Anti-Abuse and like want to conference says she's that person that she's a great moderator, she's a great speaker. But she also just asks these questions, you know, just coming from this place of like, curiosity.
00;04;57;14 - 00;05;10;29
Speaker 1
And it's like one of us were like, damn, like, I could barely understand that question that you're asking because you don't understand the technical nuance of everything. Right. She kind that not to say she doesn't care what people think. I'm sure she does, but she just has this kind of attitude that's just fun loving and she's not a good person to be around.
00;05;11;12 - 00;05;32;24
Speaker 1
And she is excellent at moderating and this all her inbox exposure skillet she's the hilarious to ratios works in some comedies which is just my favorite thing to do. It really gives you that much. So all right. Is that the stage your pet a little bit about you so beginning in some sets after that I'm from finance. You fell straight into the liberal and never looked back.
00;05;32;24 - 00;05;51;27
Speaker 1
Now, as a CMO, was transition right your career challenged you the most? Yeah, you know, and I think obviously there's a lot of challenges in marketing in any role really that you're in when you're working in this company. But, you know, I just I spent so many years staying in my lane, you know, like fighting for deliverability, pushing for best practices, playing like the compliance cop or like the Debbie Downer, right?
00;05;51;27 - 00;06;12;17
Speaker 1
Like never really knew the company money or I was kind of burning people. When you're in deliverability, you're usually just called in after something's gone wrong. And so you get into the data, you find the thing that's broken, you fix it and boom, like measurable outcome. Everybody's happy, right? But in marketing, it's a whole different ballgame. Or, you know, I wasn't prepared, I guess for like how subjective or maybe that how squishy it is.
00;06;12;17 - 00;06;31;20
Speaker 1
Like you rarely get that kind of data back where it's like it's everybody has an opinion and suddenly you're just kind of like the one who's like pitching these ideas. Attribution is a mess, particularly when you're not just it takes dozens of touch points and repetition and emotional contacts and trust building like all of these things, maybe to get somebody to care and then eventually for sales to do their thing right.
00;06;31;20 - 00;06;43;22
Speaker 1
Like we have all this evidence that proves that people don't approach brands until they're basically kind of ready to buy. Like they've done most of our research and they just kind of need you to not screw it up, but like you need to get on that list. Like you need to be in the realm of the understanding, right?
00;06;43;22 - 00;06;59;21
Speaker 1
And I think it just took me way too long to realize the fact that I need to like advocate just as hard from marketing within my own company. Right? Like, it's just you're asking these people to kind of, like, trust this narrative that you're building and maybe they don't gravitate or they don't really get it. You just don't get those like, aha, it's broken.
00;06;59;21 - 00;07;18;00
Speaker 1
Like that's, it's just so easy for that mental shit, like fixing problems to kind of just learning right area all the time. I think it's just been really kind of a hard corner to turn. I think it's like I still kind of suck at it, to be honest. And, you know, it's like if you're old enough to have seen Zoolander, just maybe like I'll just have a hard time travel left, right?
00;07;18;00 - 00;07;36;24
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm working on it still. Yeah. It's hard to have when, when you're so used to criticism. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like you really have to build that foundation. And I think a lot of times like people in organizations don't understand marketing, they're not in marketing. And so they don't get how important it is to kind of like build those foundational, like, what is your ICP?
00;07;36;24 - 00;07;51;07
Speaker 1
Who are you going after? What is your, your kind of market audience? You can't with that. And I think that's where like I sort of did because I was like, yeah, doesn't matter because nobody was really a enough to to kind of know how important that stuff was, right? So I don't see it like go for it again.
00;07;51;07 - 00;08;14;20
Speaker 1
But just like I wouldn't assume that full stack engineer assume you're a marketer just as you can do marketing, right? Like just because you think that you have a really good name for a mascot for our company. Don't share that. Maybe like exactly. So you are an advocate and often talk about concept based marketing. Actually, every marketer. What's the most misunderstood myth about?
00;08;15;04 - 00;08;31;11
Speaker 1
You know, I do talk about consent, but I think there's a big difference between like consent and attention. Like you still have to earn the attention. Like, I feel like there's a lot of marketers today that are still kind of operating under this assumption that once you get someone, gives you their email address, your golden right, like cool, like just go, this is great.
00;08;31;11 - 00;08;48;11
Speaker 1
We've got the consumer can do what we want. That's just the beginning of the relationship. It's almost like you're just happy with this handshake with someone. Right. And I think the real challenge that we need to be focusing on is not the content. It's staying relevant, it's staying memorable and not becoming kind of like this, like this buzzing fly that's sort of just in their face, within their inbox.
00;08;48;11 - 00;09;03;17
Speaker 1
Right. And I think, you know, the bar has been set higher now that people are drowning in so much technology and so much noise and so much AI. So I think it's just you have to move beyond, you know, did they opt in? I think it's more like why did they opt in? What did we promise to them?
00;09;03;17 - 00;09;22;06
Speaker 1
Or by delivering on that promise in a way that's actually worthy of their time, not, you know, just benefiting us. So I think we really just need to get a little bit creative with the way that we get attention from folks and, you know, like Gmail now is offering that subscription management center, right? So users can see how often brands are on them and they can also check out the content that they're getting.
00;09;22;06 - 00;09;39;28
Speaker 1
So like in a split second, within a couple of clicks, they can decide if you're welcome in their inbox anymore or not. And then the unsubscribe button is right there, too. So I think it's just it's not about consent. It's really about everything that comes after that, right? Like, are they going to shake your hand and then become your friends or just kind of feel like as weird, just a handshake, right?
00;09;39;29 - 00;10;05;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think, you know, I just want them to feel good about your brand. And I think that's something that people often forget, especially when you have those very large lists and you start to see just the numbers and not remember these specific people that are kind of in August. So what I'm hearing is one day expectations, but from your own internal team, but also the customer, but also in addition actually providing something of value to them as opposed to the value to you as a business.
00;10;05;24 - 00;10;20;11
Speaker 1
Yes, for sure. Right. Like put them first. Like it's not just like a way to say it. It's not just meeting up. Your like purpose is like it really is actually how you succeed, how you build like loyal followers as opposed to like just people that are like, I guess it's in my inbox, maybe I'll look for sale one.
00;10;20;18 - 00;10;42;11
Speaker 1
So I have risen now to executive leadership. What's this experience about? How do you level set the brand side marketers and teams. Thank you do yeah so I think you know this is one of those where like I feel lucky for the fact that I've actually spent most of my career in the trenches. And so I get to, you know, kind of look back on that and remember all the pain that I felt along the way as that practice year.
00;10;42;11 - 00;10;58;06
Speaker 1
But I also try to stay really close with the people in my own company who do talk to our customers regularly. We're just we're talking about their customer use cases. We have bugs that they're facing. So we have to figure out like, oh, it's not just like, do we have good tech? It's What's your experience like? What happens when we actually help you do help you, right?
00;10;58;06 - 00;11;16;06
Speaker 1
So I think those kind of conversations helped me stay grounded so that I'm like kind of speaking from a place of reality, not just theory or things that I kind of knew a couple of years ago. And then I also like, I host these these virtual roundtables. It's like a lab. It really like anytime you can join, it's like sessions where you're in a room with other people, you sit in your seat or like close to your seat.
00;11;16;07 - 00;11;32;06
Speaker 1
I think it just it gives you that chance to kind of jam out with other people and really just come up with some good ideas. And these are all people that are living in the weeds and like dying to help and dying to, like, be helped and have ideas. So I think it's just having all of that kind of awareness around me really just helps me like continuing to understand what challenges they're facing.
00;11;32;06 - 00;11;49;10
Speaker 1
And I think to kind of think about the fact that it's not just like, Oh, well, you got to follow the best practice. It really is like, what is the bandwidth issues, right? Like who's on maternity leave, who's out set, who's on vacation for three weeks because they went to Europe. Like, there's all these things that you're doing, you're chasing approvals, you're like, you've got these unclear briefs that kind of just get twisted in translation.
00;11;49;10 - 00;12;06;00
Speaker 1
And like there's just there's all these things that marketers are dealing with and understanding that. But really, just like it's not infinite. Like there is online, there are places where momentum stalls or leadership just changes their mind and shifts gears and goes in a different direction. And all of a sudden, your top priority project is just like, never mind, like we're not even doing that.
00;12;06;00 - 00;12;20;17
Speaker 1
So like I think sort of being aware of that and being aware of the constraints that marketers like. And from a technology perspective, you know, just trying to give people that empathy and come at solutions from a place of creativity, right? Like it's not just like, here's what you do. It's like, okay, well, here's what you could do.
00;12;20;18 - 00;12;33;24
Speaker 1
Here's another way that you could do that. Based on what you've told me about the way that your technology works or your business model works, I don't think this is going to work for you. So here's another option. Or like throw it to them and let them kind of just figure it out based on the proper amount of context that you're giving them.
00;12;33;26 - 00;12;53;29
Speaker 1
Let them understand the issue, but not from like start talking about some protocols. I think it's much more fun to yeah, I don't care, but only if the person is nerding out with you, I think right as well. Speaking on their digital marketing is often treated out. Plumbing essential but underfunded. Not very sexy, not very enticing. How did you fight for email as a strategy?
00;12;54;14 - 00;13;16;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, so I think one of the best ways that I've seen evolving here, especially on that brand marketer side, is by running small proof of concept tests. And actually somebody from a massive brand joined one of our roundtables recently. I was just talking about this. I'm just like, you know, if you can show that thing that you're asking for is already showing traction even at like a really small scale, like this company has multiple global regions and kind of subsidiary.
00;13;16;02 - 00;13;30;10
Speaker 1
So like if you can just test like one of those and see some success, that could be the thing that you need to kind of prove this. All right. Like, maybe it's a simple test, like you can just testing messaging on LinkedIn and then turning that into like the basis for an email campaign is your best performing contract.
00;13;30;10 - 00;13;50;23
Speaker 1
It's just you what you're bringing data to the table and you're not asking for like if you budget upfront, you're just saying like, look, we did this thing with duct tape or with limited resources and it worked and it's something we should try to pursue. But now imagine what you could do with proper support behind this, right? So I think it's you know, it doesn't just look strategic, you know, because you have to connect it to the business goals.
00;13;50;23 - 00;14;08;26
Speaker 1
Right. And I think oftentimes there's just this huge disconnect between the two. And so kind of getting into the minds of executives like they aren't ignoring email because they don't care. They're ignoring it because they don't understand it. You know, they don't really get how like next to their goals because nobody's told them. Like marketers are so busy marketing externally that they forget about explaining this stuff internally.
00;14;08;26 - 00;14;23;00
Speaker 1
So I think trying to get into those mindsets of like are they trying to just get leads to grow revenue? Are they trying to get acquired? Is there a big partnership move in the works that you can get involved in? Like how can you tie your email program to those things that matter so it doesn't just click on it, right?
00;14;23;00 - 00;14;44;02
Speaker 1
It's not just running in the background. It actually is something that is going to drive business impact. So I think that's yeah, start the marketing internally was you know as much as I wish it was your job is not just doing well, it's translating that value into something that's going to get you by in much faster. Yeah, translating and I imagine your finance background helps a little bit with some of that translation can now.
00;14;44;02 - 00;15;08;17
Speaker 1
You would think so, but I actually used to fall asleep every time I did my like series seven studying. So like I just, I was like, this isn't for me. I think I'll share. All right. Is your today gears a little bit? I wouldn't know more about the techie side you've previously said, and I think I should point out they don't add data is the root cause of two issues How should marketers rethink data hygiene both at signup and for the long term?
00;15;08;17 - 00;15;28;14
Speaker 1
And how does your advice change from B to B to B to C? TONYA You know, so I think I mean, you know, across the board, like everyone needs to get permission if possible. Like, you know, I know some people still send cold emails, so like I'm not going to speak to you and give you ideas, but like you should be speaking to people who are going to receive that email well who hopefully like are expecting to receive it.
00;15;28;14 - 00;15;50;00
Speaker 1
So I think that's for everybody. But you know, I think more specific to be to be like you are going to probably see like a higher churn rate on the email addresses. You know, people are switching jobs. So those email addresses go dark. So let's say if you're only mailing quarterly or if you've just got like this one big push that you do every year, but you're kind of setting yourself up for a lot of hard bounces that potentially could being due to work or billing issues.
00;15;50;00 - 00;16;05;06
Speaker 1
You know, I think it's if you're sending more consistently, what you'll see is that those inactive addresses kind of get phased out like a little bit more organically and they look more normal. Right. But the rates don't really spike up that one time you send a year or so. I think it's it really helps you kind of just like meter that out.
00;16;05;06 - 00;16;22;12
Speaker 1
So I think just you know give people the option to sign up with their personal email address as well. I think that's the other thing is, you know, within B2B, we're so focused on like knowing the company that they work for. So sales has a lead to chase, but like people do switch jobs. And so I think at that point you've lost the thread like that's the end of your story with them, right?
00;16;22;12 - 00;16;44;15
Speaker 1
If you choose to provide them with the ability to have like a General Hotmail address, not only are you serving people who maybe don't have a job right now, who might get a job and be working for a company that you're trying to actually reach or something like that. But if they're choosing to give you that person's email address or Hotmail address, it's actually like a really strong signal that the content that you're sending actually matters to them enough to allow you into that personal space.
00;16;44;15 - 00;17;02;25
Speaker 1
And I think it kind of helps keep that relationship alive if they pop up in another company, because you've already kind of just stayed present in their life instead of waiting for them to kind of to re opt in in that address. I think the other difference probably is engagement looks different, really low opens because a lot of B2B filters don't preload those images.
00;17;02;25 - 00;17;27;21
Speaker 1
Right, like my stock at large inbox or it has turned them off by default. So even if I read your email, you're not kind of back, right? Other mailbox providers or filters, they open basically everything. So you're going to think that you're open to create and you'll get, my gosh, we have such high engagement when you don't. So I think it's don't really obsess over your engagement rates, particularly in B2B, because those mailbox provider filters, those third party filters are much more focused on your bounce rates.
00;17;28;00 - 00;17;52;06
Speaker 1
How high is your spam complaint rate and is your authentication and your configuration correct? So pay more attention to that kind of stuff. Like are you triggering blocks at four point places on once one sense and kind of what is building around instead of and I have a question instead of as nerdy folks who like to rest in giving marketers too much data with that still touch interpret.
00;17;52;13 - 00;18;13;08
Speaker 1
Yes absolutely. Like I couldn't agree with anything more probably in the world. So I have seen so many marketers who are just drowning in dashboards, who have like the most expensive tools on the market. And they admit, like, I don't really understand a lot of that stuff. So I really just kind of stay on the dashboard. Like that actually tends to be enough for a lot of people until you have an issue or until you've gotten a lot of complexity.
00;18;13;08 - 00;18;31;05
Speaker 1
But you just see all these graphs and metrics, but you don't know what they mean. So you just it gets lost, right? And then you have this paralysis and you're kind of chasing false assumptions and there's just all this noise that's happening. So I think it's a real question that we're trying to solve. It's like a labs is like, you know, what decision is this data actually helping me make, right?
00;18;31;06 - 00;18;55;15
Speaker 1
It's not actionable. What's the point of telling you it's not helping you with anything. It's just giving you stress or confusion. Right. So we're trying to simplify things by really directing customers to like where the problem lives are. So it's kind of like, you know, it's bucketed into a couple of different issues. I think it's engaging or list hygiene or it's your authentication, things like that, so that you can kind of jump past that initial question of like, what's wrong when you're just shaking and sweating right?
00;18;55;15 - 00;19;18;16
Speaker 1
And just jump right into like the problem solving mode, you know, really just give proper context to people so that they can focus on what matters. And I think this is like a great place for like next, like shine, like not just as a content generator like it is now, but really, you know, moving beyond even just like data aggregation, but just like the way that we can make this easier for people to make decisions and then take action on those decisions, right?
00;19;18;16 - 00;19;32;01
Speaker 1
So imagine if you can say like I did my bounce rate site this week or why did I get blacklisted? And it gives you an answer. And then it says here, would you like to create a rule within your configuration that helps you bypass this issue next time or separates the traffic because it was based on this thing?
00;19;32;01 - 00;19;52;24
Speaker 1
Like, so that's where we're going. Like, we're not there yet, but I think that's the dream, right? Like that's where we're focusing on. That's exciting. And I love that getting really honed in on certain areas that must be the most luxurious, most advanced place. You've got all the dashboards, which is in of itself a feat. But if you can ban any message from a dashboard, what would it be?
00;19;52;24 - 00;20;25;12
Speaker 1
So much power. What I do. So this is like the easiest question. It's the inbox that's the great like, you know, people put so much gospel into this rate and it's the first thing I hear. It's not like my delivery rate is 98%. It's my inbox rate is 99%. So I don't understand there shouldn't be a problem. And I think it's really important for people to understand and a lot of people don't understand this, that those inbox placement rates tend to be based on same testing where the vendor basically just like adds a bunch of Gmail addresses and Yahoo addresses, let's say like 20 of each of all these different mailbox providers, and then they
00;20;25;12 - 00;20;41;04
Speaker 1
just track where your mail lands. Right? But the problem is that those addresses are robots essentially. Right? So they're not opening, clicking and kind of like engaging with their mailbox the way that you do. Right. They're not opening that one email 15 times and then moving it to a folder and then forwarding it to a friend. And then another one you open once.
00;20;41;04 - 00;20;59;18
Speaker 1
But then, you know, you're doing all these kind of things within your inbox and mailbox providers can see that, right? But they have this kind of data so they can tell the difference. They know the difference between a C test and a real human. So even if you know Bobby Robot one, two, three at Gmail goes to the inbox, it doesn't mean that my production list has actually gone to the inbox.
00;20;59;18 - 00;21;25;29
Speaker 1
Right. And I've seen so many people just panic because their inbox rate tanked, even though nothing actually changed in their real life metrics. When you look at their opens in a collection of delivery rates and things, right? It was just seeds which were wacky, right. And at the same time, I've seen people that totally ignore deliverability issues when those do pop up because the seed test said that everything was fine or because they're just they're so tired of chasing past false positives that now they're burned, they're like, No, I'm not chasing that one.
00;21;25;29 - 00;21;42;28
Speaker 1
Like, forget it. It's obviously not real. It's fine, right? So I think it's from Denver that the inbox is not real. It's not driven by data that's coming from the mailbox providers who know what actually went to the inbox. And it's not driven by recipients. Not yet, anyway. Look, I don't have that information, so it's just creating this false sense of confidence or false alarm.
00;21;43;10 - 00;22;05;28
Speaker 1
Right. That's just that's dangerous. So, like, let's just ban the word inbox placement until we know that it's real. Right. And just be careful with your receipt test. I love that. And the market is full of letters prompting this the inbox, things that like how you won obviously be nice with the planet from every dashboard, but how can buyers and customers really distinguish between a signal and salesman?
00;22;06;01 - 00;22;23;27
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I think it's, you know, Top of the mountain. I would say, like if anyone ever guarantees inbox placement or really kind of anything within email run because like, you know, the only thing they can guarantee is when it doesn't work, they'll give you your money back. Like they can't guarantee what goes to the inbox. Right? There's a good service level agreement in place with you that if negotiated, right?
00;22;23;27 - 00;22;42;18
Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. So I think that's obviously the fastest the biggest red flag out there. But what a vendor can do, I think, is explain your risks when you're migrating, when you're doing certain actions within your day to day kind of program. If they're helping you fix problems, like do you reach out and you get a response from a human?
00;22;42;21 - 00;22;55;17
Speaker 1
Do you get a response via Slack or a ticket? Do you get a response from I? Because I've heard that there are huge companies in our industry who laid off all their people and now we're just using a AI responses for everything else. So it's like you can have that kind of support or you can actually talk to a human.
00;22;55;17 - 00;23;15;18
Speaker 1
So like what kind of experience do you mean based on your experience level and kind of the things that you're good at and the things you think you're going to need help with. And then of course, you need to have the tooling to get the job done right and to make those smarter choices as well. And I can pick out a couple of those pieces, but then mostly this piece, but especially when it comes to making smarter choices and like being like, Oh, I have an idea, I should do this.
00;23;15;18 - 00;23;40;09
Speaker 1
And then actually doing it I think is really hard. This is where I think support matters a whole lot because they can walk you through this stuff, right? If you can have the fanciest platform in the world. But if it breaks and you don't know how to fix it, like you're toast, right? That's the ending of it. So I think it's just, you know, ask them not just about the tech but like who will be there when my actually going to be talking to 1% fails when the balance reason super vague and I don't know what to do when apps are blacklisted right.
00;23;40;09 - 00;24;01;18
Speaker 1
Like we have people like Brian Gordon, one of the most talented people I've ever met. Who was the person answering your tickets versus this other stuff? So I think that's the real differentiator. But just do your diligence, right? Like whatever is best for me or best for you. It just depends on my goals or super. Yeah. You go for like what you said in particular I consider customer success as a product in itself.
00;24;01;18 - 00;24;28;13
Speaker 1
And if you are not actively and this is any vendor not just deliverability or is easy for me that's one of the most important building blocks. But this vendor works for my needs. What is the remediation plan and approach? Do they blame the customer? I've come across that before and so I'm a huge proponent of really digging deep with the customer support, customer success tiers and also customers like things with from asking them what happened.
00;24;28;13 - 00;24;45;05
Speaker 1
Totally. I love that. Yeah, I think it's tough. Like as a marketer, like you can't really shout about your customer success because everyone does, right? Like I feel like we have the best support of our, you know, so like no one really believed. But there are ways if you dig, if you look get that question a little bit, you will get answers that give you a good sense of what it is.
00;24;45;19 - 00;25;02;12
Speaker 1
Yes. And protip, if anyone says they have an award for their customer support success, look to see if it's paid for. Yeah. And then I've been a big marketing budget, not a great support team. Right. For all their own like fault. We just hit the 45 minute mark with that couple questions by myself if got a meeting. All right.
00;25;02;12 - 00;25;25;11
Speaker 1
So taking a step back and thinking about the industry at large, one finally Apple the email privacy protection and shifting inbox taps is finally caught up with Gmail. Ten years later, how should marketers relying less on problems and want meaningful engagement? Yeah, and it's funny because like, you know, I feel like male privacy protection really just put spotlight on the fact that opens are not a very reliable metric.
00;25;25;11 - 00;25;39;26
Speaker 1
So it's just kind of like, yeah, okay, cool. And like so now it's almost become trendy to like dunk on open rates and just say like they're noisy, they're just trash. But despite the noise with bots, there's image preloading, there's privacy changes that are happening like they all are going to mess with your numbers and that's move clicks as well.
00;25;39;26 - 00;26;03;02
Speaker 1
That's even true of conversions like attribution is messy. So open rates in my mind, especially when it comes to deliverability, are still very useful if you use them. Directional, right? Like open pixels don't get triggered when mails go into the spam folder. So bigger if you've got like open rates that are typically 40% and that drops to like 6% with Hotmail, you know, that you probably have a spam folder issue as opposed to just like a snooze faster than email, right?
00;26;03;02 - 00;26;18;13
Speaker 1
So I think if there's ways for you to kind of like look at that data and just see over time as far back as you can go and say, are we just trending downwards? Is there something we can do with that? Is this a list collection issue where we're bringing in people that are less engaged? Is this just that our content is the same thing all the time?
00;26;18;13 - 00;26;42;01
Speaker 1
Like what is the problem? But I think open rates are part of the story to tell that. But then I think it's know how can you track other metrics downstream but more reliably perhaps like clicks again, faulty as well, oftentimes inflated and things like that. But what about conversions? Like what about reply is is there a way that you can like insert a pole into your email that kind of like has a different kind of engagement that lets you know, maybe it's, it's from a real person or even just like website visits, right?
00;26;42;01 - 00;26;55;23
Speaker 1
If you're in like direct to consumer and you get purchases directly from email, like when you hit send at 10:15 a.m., do you see a little bit of a surge on the website and a little bit of surge in revenue? Like those are things that you can track more reliably and trace them back to in a little bit.
00;26;55;23 - 00;27;17;19
Speaker 1
But yeah, you really have to get creative and just find ways to like build your email content to drive other types of engagements that would be like more trackable, more meaningful activity that you can kind of trust a little bit more, right? Like at the same time, I think just remember that engagement really isn't the end all be all like there is a lot of stuff that happens downstream, but also like sometimes even your best readers are just not going to help it.
00;27;17;19 - 00;27;38;25
Speaker 1
They're not going to click, maybe they read the subject line, maybe they see your brand name. It still helps. So I think it's like look beyond the metrics and just try to track behavior across all of these different touchpoints for them to dig it sounds years I don't I think this I'm still I'm in full agreement ever more with the metrics are just single use them to actually to understand where to go.
00;27;38;25 - 00;28;07;08
Speaker 1
Yeah that's it nothing more nothing less amortizing and just not have that signal at all. So like it's nothing like right. The first one. Yeah, exactly. That responsibility is just everywhere and sending email, everything is still very manual. No matter how many companies tout. Like where do you see incrementally rearranging email, marketing, tooling, or how you use email?
00;28;07;08 - 00;28;25;27
Speaker 1
We haven't really seen major platform shifts yet. That went from I'm quoting in Dreamweaver or in the Free and my white label was a way for sure. It feels like we had just kind of that wave of like, Oh, I can build this thing. And it's like, I could be the first to market or it's just, it's like the easiest thing that they can build and they're kind of just getting that feedback.
00;28;26;12 - 00;28;44;17
Speaker 1
So I think that's kind of where with a lot of those generative content sort of things came from. I have seen a couple of other ones that get deeper into like segmentation or things like that, but I think that the problem that I see today is just that a lot of these tools, like they're not it's not based on data and now it's not in what you said, it's not integrated into your workflow.
00;28;44;17 - 00;29;00;04
Speaker 1
It's just it's very generalized data. They don't understand your audience. So I think usually what you would get from those kind of like more like data driven, data driven results is, is just kind of like it's just it's not really good enough. It might pass the test a little bit, but it's not really a point for your audience.
00;29;00;04 - 00;29;17;07
Speaker 1
So I think that's where like you're going to fall into that, see it saying once and never really kind of get past it. So I think, you know, the next wave that I see like the next kind of iteration is going to be starting to use the data more responsibly, right? Like, you know, mailbox providers, ISPs, everybody's been using like machine learning data for like years and years, ten years, 20 years, right?
00;29;17;07 - 00;29;37;18
Speaker 1
Like they've had this. And I think now it's just like you have to figure out how to get the data structure and all of the context into an API so that you could set it on top of your data and say, Tell me that, do this, do that. But if the data is trash or if it's just not organized in a good way and you're not kind of getting right prompts and adding a ton of context and then extracting that context and all these things, it's going to be trash.
00;29;37;18 - 00;30;06;07
Speaker 1
So I think it's just a matter of we're going to see some tools come out and we need to kick the tires and make sure that those actually that those results are real and those make sense and their energies are helping us achieve our goals and actually get to where and this is what we're building is just really using our email people to like build something that is very dangerous and very data driven and it's factoring in all these things and there's weightings, but doing it very incrementally, very slowly and not releasing it until we do so, I think it's just we're going to see less people just being like, oh, like write my newsletter
00;30;06;07 - 00;30;19;27
Speaker 1
and populate the images. Like, I think it really is going to be more like help me keep my system from like growing up who were like, help me diagnosed this problem. And so like I could become that real copilot, but I don't think it can replace a lot of the work. There's just spaghetti all over the place, right?
00;30;19;28 - 00;30;44;02
Speaker 1
Like there's this system over here and it doesn't talk to that system. So there's a human that kind of needs to be that celebrity person between all this stuff and make it work. And speaking of trash, make taking out the trash in that regard, cleaning up. You've been very vocal about consent and cleaning practices. What is your take on brands for still I'm less in the year of 2025 are they delusional they desperate or that's considered essential?
00;30;44;09 - 00;30;56;09
Speaker 1
I honestly think it's probably all of the above, a mixture of all of the above. There was a marketer who worked for my company a couple of years ago who was like, everybody buys. Like he told me that when I quit that initial blog post stuff like you need to not be buying less, you need to get permission.
00;30;56;10 - 00;31;19;08
Speaker 1
He was like, That's just the most boring old advice ever. And I'm like, But it's the most important, right? Like it still matters just because people are doing something doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do for your business because it's, you know, email is in relationship channel. Like unless you are just getting to get revenue directly from one email and you don't care about ever connecting with that person again, you need to like, you know, kind of like nourish those relationships just like you do in real life, right?
00;31;19;08 - 00;31;36;19
Speaker 1
So if you're desperate to hit a number, if you're delusional about what this quality even means or how you get it, if you've got like these internal processes or like these internal questions from leadership that are just they're making it feel like buying is easier than building. Right? Like I've heard from past marketers working for another ISP that like not getting leads is hard.
00;31;36;27 - 00;31;56;11
Speaker 1
Like, you know, it is like it's super hard, right? But like, just like a career to do it. It's like you just I get it. I get the pressure. But you also need to realize, like, what is happening downstream of that. But sure, you cut the corner, but then you got to check it and you relate to your thing in a way, because the police stopped you in soccer team tickets, right?
00;31;56;11 - 00;32;13;18
Speaker 1
So like, you know, it's really important to do right by recipients. And I think, you know, it's just if you're going to buy a list, like, honestly, just, I don't know, use it for data, use it to try to get information on your ICP and what I'm like, what are their, their roles like? What other data do you have on them that tell you like make up who that person is that you can speak to them better in segments and better.
00;32;13;18 - 00;32;33;03
Speaker 1
And hopefully if you're doing cold email, make an outreach that actually helps them knowing there is no such thing and do appreciate the former regressing approach. I do see value, maybe not in the parts of what was trying, but better segmentation and understanding. This is very easy to be but like breathing and who is within your ICP and who they want to talk to.
00;32;33;03 - 00;32;49;15
Speaker 1
So there is value as long as it's not used for that purpose. Yeah, it's just I mean I has made it so easy to just like spray and pray now and I think that they're being smart with these templates, but like you see the same stuff all the time now. So it's like you really just you need to have done your research.
00;32;49;15 - 00;33;09;03
Speaker 1
You need to have like some sort of angle that resonates with that person or that business. Like you can't just like throw it out and hope it works, right? It's just it's a different world now, truly. Do you think I will ever able to think like a tool for ability? We're always going to be part science, part human art, because I think everyone's always like, there's only one answer.
00;33;09;03 - 00;33;29;02
Speaker 1
One. It's actually probably 20 different variables that you tinkered with. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's where, like, you know, I can help, but I don't think it can replace deliverability. People like the human nuance that goes into like all I think are there's there are hundreds, probably thousands of different mailbox providers that all have their own bounce codes and they're not always like the standards and all these things.
00;33;29;02 - 00;33;43;25
Speaker 1
Right. And so there's this like tribal historical knowledge that's been kind of gathered over the past 30 years that people have been sent an email and now it's shared in Slack channels and listservs, and like these behind the scenes places. And then it's added to something stock and shared when someone's like, Help me, I have a problem, right?
00;33;43;25 - 00;34;02;13
Speaker 1
So I think it's, you know, I would be good at like the anomaly detection, like helping you track the trends, helping you realize when something's off. But from there, I think just it will take so much work to add the proper context to that model, to be able to catch all the edge cases. Right. So I think it can help with like the general stuff, right?
00;34;02;13 - 00;34;15;27
Speaker 1
Like if you are one person that is just saying like segment your list in 90 day active like if you're giving that same stale advice, you're not going to have a job. Like I think you really need to kind of lean into more like this is what I can do, this is how far it gets it. Now I need to be better.
00;34;15;27 - 00;34;34;16
Speaker 1
I need to be understanding a little bit more of a technical aspects of like how these things are set up, how they connect to your infrastructure, like going deeper into that part or going deeper into like the strategic aspects and the creative part, you know, understanding your execute right? Like you could talk to customers and I could, but like you are the one who's going to get better, more human feedback from them.
00;34;34;16 - 00;34;54;26
Speaker 1
Right. So I think it just we are all just really throwing spaghetti at the wall and say it's really messy and I think it's going to continue to be messy as it evolves. So how does I keep up with that unless you have people that are keeping up with the consulting training, right? Yeah, I see a lot as the difference between going to see the doctor and going to get over-the-counter prescription medication.
00;34;54;27 - 00;35;20;25
Speaker 1
Like, you know, I've got a fever, but it is not so high that I need to immediately go to the hospital and see if there's something more verses about low grade fever. I just use sleep and take the meds to help me get through this. For sure, that's all. We still need that. Doctor. If something is well beyond the easy things that you can kind of try symptomatic things for and there might be a diagnosis here and we need to really understand systemically what's going on.
00;35;21;00 - 00;35;37;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. So diagnostics and then there's what would you separate the science or the art. Exactly. And you got to have those if you're going to be a good doctor, that's for sure. I our last question we asked everyone who was someone we should have on the podcast. And so we cut out but preferably a senior female leader because there are so few.
00;35;37;16 - 00;35;54;20
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, I think the one that came to mind immediately is certainty as far as the I don't know if you're familiar with her. She said, okay, yeah, yeah. So she is like historically been in deliverability. She worked for like a fellowship and protocol response and like a bunch of different schemes and she's like a people manager now would play down.
00;35;54;20 - 00;36;11;28
Speaker 1
She's kind of sitting between the deliverability product and operations. So like her role was more technical, but I started was like, she's just the glue. Like, I feel like she's like the mama bear of all the ladies. Like when we get together at conferences, like she's Yeah, she's great. She listens, she's thoughtful. She has a way of speaking about her and she just she wants to bring other women with her as well.
00;36;11;28 - 00;36;24;15
Speaker 1
Like someone asked her once again, like, what do you do to help women or whatever? And she goes like, anytime I move, I immediately like look behind me and grab another person and pull them up too. And it's like, that's just, that's how it needs to be, right? So yeah. So I mean, and she's just interesting to talk to.
00;36;24;15 - 00;36;44;24
Speaker 1
So yeah, I would love an introduction. Okay, I could do it. And on that note, thank you so much for being on the pod. It's for having me now. It's what a bunch of legends looks like. Well, that's a good question. So I do have a website send Dash Bash. Right, ABC.com. And that's where you can sign up for our newsletter or just kind of read the blog and kind of tell around fancy bit experts that you should follow.
00;36;44;24 - 00;36;59;22
Speaker 1
I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active over there and I post a lot just like, you know, general best practices but getting deeper into it. So connect with me some kind of chat. I also offer 20 minute consulting stuff because I like to just jam out with people. So if you want to just kind of chat again to my website, farfetch.
00;36;59;24 - 00;37;04;11
Speaker 1
All right. Thanks so much. Thank you.