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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
2.14 Bonnie Young
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Crishelle: [00:00:00] I'm so glad you're here. If you're listening to this, you or someone you love has probably felt the pain of starting over after a relapse with pornography. You've tried willpower porn blockers working with church leaders and nothing seems to stick. If that's you really is a great way to recover differently. Relay was created by my friend Chandler Rogers.
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I love what they've created. Use the link in our show notes to try relay for free. And see how it helps you recover with the support you need.. You're listening to Breaking the Silence, a podcast by Reach10, where we are breaking the shame, silence, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma, [00:01:00] and helping you embrace your God given sexuality with courage, compassion, and connection. I'm your host, Chrishell Simons.
Welcome back to Breaking the Silence. Today we are breaking the silence with Bonnie Young. Oh, I'm so stoked you're back with us, Bonnie. It's been a minute. If you listened to her episode with us like way back, and if you haven't, you should definitely go check it out. It's really great. And now she's back for round two and she has so much goodness and wisdom and light to share with us.
And today we're going to be talking about the sex education you'd wish you'd received. Or maybe the things that you loved about your sex education that went well, but also maybe the things that Didn't go so great that you want to shift and maybe have be different moving forward. And so without further ado, Bonnie, will you [00:02:00] just take a second to introduce yourselves?
You're, oh my gosh, will you just take a second to
Bonnie: All of myself, I will introduce all of myself. I have actually worn many hats in my life, so that's a great way to start this introduction. So well, first off, Michelle, I'm just so excited to be here and thank you for inviting me on the podcast. It's a treat to, to be a visitor on the podcast, but also just to be connected with you.
So lucky listeners to have you as the host of this podcast. So yes, I am Bonnie. Crishella and I actually met originally at BYU when we. We're involved with, it wasn't called reach 10 back then.
Crishelle: I don't even know what we called it, but it was what this organization originated with. I think it was at a dating discussion. Like we were talking about how. To talk about pornography and dating. And I
Bonnie: There was a guide.
Crishelle: Sam, was it you and Sam leading that discussion?
Bonnie: No,
Crishelle: it was you and Alex.
Bonnie: Yeah. [00:03:00] Has he been on your podcast?
Crishelle: Yeah. He's so great.
Bonnie: Oh, I love Alex. So yeah, but Sam, Sam is my husband
Crishelle: Yeah. And, and I went to high school with Sam, so
Bonnie: there's so many fun connections.
Crishelle: yeah, it was so fun.
Bonnie: Yeah, Sam attended some of those conversations, right? So there was this guide that Vonna Davis and you and other people were involved in writing.
I don't remember if I was involved in writing it or not. College is a blur. But it was this really cool guide. I don't do, does Reach 10 still like publish that?
Crishelle: It's on our website and it's a great resource. It's how to talk about pornography and dating.
Bonnie: Yeah, highly, highly recommend really blessed my dating career. You know, and so yeah, we like held these discussions, little fireside esque things that weren't necessarily affiliated with the church, but very much were aimed towards. You know, people who cared about living their standards and also included the reality at that pornography is just a part of so many of our [00:04:00] lives and how to address that in dating.
So that's where Christelle and I first met. So, and I would also say like, that's where my interest in sexuality and sexuality research began. And let's see. Okay. So now I am a marriage and family therapist and I work primarily with sexual concerns. And I work a lot also with OCD, especially religious OCD, also called scrupulosity.
So really love working as a therapist, love working with my clients. It's just like a, Joy and the privilege to work with them and to learn from them and with them i'm a mom. I have two kids and another one on the way so We are running on a pregnant brain as we're recording this. So listeners, please forgive my My glitches.
And I so in addition to being a therapist me and my husband, Sam, who I now, you know, who I'm talking about, Sam[00:05:00] own a clinic called Azure counseling that's mainly aimed at like religious individuals. Some amazing clinicians there. I'm currently going to Utah state for my PhD. And I'm also doing my PhD in marriage and family therapy.
So anything else about me? I really like sleeping right now. and my husband's a really good cook and I'm really good at cleaning. I actually really love cleaning. So in another life, I would have a cleaning company. Like, I think that's what I would do. So there's my intro.
Crishelle: That's
Bonnie: I also wrote a book.
Crishelle: Oh, yes. And her book is so great. It's called Sex Educated, actually. And we will link that in the show notes. And so listener, if you're interested, please check it out. It's so, so good. And maybe just tell us a little bit about your book because it's a treat.
Bonnie: yeah, so the, so it's called Sex Educated and then the subtitle is [00:06:00] called Letters from a Latter day Saint Therapist to Her Younger Self. So this book actually started out as a project that Sam, husband and I did, started together when we were first married. We just felt like, man, we, we had, we both felt so...
Ready to start our sexual relationship, not just when you're excited, but like we had talked, you know, we'd been in forums like, like the one we were in with you, Chris shell and talking about healthy sexuality. We, we had read a lot. We had learned a lot. We had taken classes and we felt, you know, really prepared in as much as we could be.
And still just felt like, oh man, we wish. We wish we could tell our younger selves X, Y, Z. So that's what the book started out as. And then as it progressed, it turned a little bit more into my project. And basically, you know, extending to myself, my younger self these lessons [00:07:00] that I wish I would have learned, you know, simultaneously while I was writing it.
I was working in a sex therapy clinic and in other clinics working a lot with clients with sexual... concerns and just feeling so much love and compassion. So yeah, the book is an offering to anyone who feels you know, men or women who feels like they have some healing to, to, to be had in their, in their sexual lives.
Crishelle: And it is so relatable and beautiful. And I, I remember one part where I was reading and I think it was, it was your second or third letter as you were just talking about the changes happening in your body. And I was like, Oh man. Younger me really needed that.
Bonnie: Yes.
Crishelle: And and , and not just that letter.
There's so many, there's so many gems from your book that I just love. So I definitely recommend. You're both at all. You're both at everyone that I talk
Bonnie: thank
Crishelle: but also to you, listener, like, please check it out. It is so, so [00:08:00] good. So good. And, and with that, I want to start just kind of talking about sex education.
Where do you. feel like our sex education maybe went well because sometimes I think we just come at it at like a man our sex education was the worst and which we're going to get into but I want to talk about maybe some things that did go well initially
Bonnie: And I love that, Rochelle. I think it's really important to have balance. I think if we're only talking, I was actually chatting with a friend earlier about this, like if we're only coming at things, there's definitely space for feedback, for improvement, for criticism. That's what helps us improve individually as organizations.
But it's also important to balance that with what is the good that's there. I think that helps us develop gratitude. It helps us develop new humility, you know, all these things that I think help us become who we want to [00:09:00] be. So I love that we get to start out with that. Okay. And I have so many thoughts.
Oh, go ahead.
Crishelle: well and I think it can give space for The gratitude, but also like, wow, I am doing better than I thought because of the good that did show up in my life. You know, that maybe if you don't take a pause to notice that you'll overlook and not even realize what has gone well.
Bonnie: absolutely. Yeah. So okay, I have a few different points. And if I get too off, off script, right, bring me back, Rachelle. Bring me in. But so I, so first off, I, you know whether or not we were aware of this, and I think many people might say, Oh, I had no idea, or this wasn't even part of my, my paradigm as I was growing up, but as members of the LDS church, we have an extremely sex positive doctrine.
Now, what we did with that doctrine varies, [00:10:00] but. You know, in, in the realm of of Christianity, I would say we're kind of we've got some, some unique, maybe counter cultural teachings, right? Like we look at the fall of Eve and Adam, I'm going to say Eve first to mix it up .
as something that's really positive, right?
We view them becoming mortal as a necessary step in becoming like our heavenly parents. And everything that came with that, right? Like our bodies are a gift. They're not a curse. Right. Leaving the garden was not this punishment, it was a necessary step. And so, you know, we've got this really positive doctrine of our bodies, the essentiality of our bodies, the eternal nature of our bodies, that we're going to be resurrected in our imperfected bodies.
Bodies aren't just this thing that we have to deal with during mortality. And then, you know, see you later. This is something that God intends us to [00:11:00] fully embrace and enjoy and take advantage of in this life. So number one, our bodies are great and everything that comes with our bodies, including our sexuality, right?
There's like God given sexual response that we have another thing, and I'm going to read a quote that is included in my book by one of the earlier apostles Pearly P. Pratt. I think a lot of us have probably heard that name before, but in this quote, he talks about how, and he said, this is back in the day.
I forget what year. Probably mid to late 1800s, but he's talking about how maybe in the Christian world that there is this idea that like our sexual nature is a sign of our fallenness that are, that, that, that it's corrupt somehow that being sexual is somehow tied to being evil or worldly and, and he says, no.
Absolutely not. In fact, [00:12:00] this is something he says, so far from this being the case, our natural affections or our sexuality are planted in us by the spirit of God for a wise purpose. They are the very main springs of life and happiness. And he calls our sexuality or sexual nature is the cement of all virtuous and heavenly society.
So, I mean, that's, pretty excellent
that,
Crishelle: really amazing. Especially thinking that that's what he was saying clear back then. Right. And it wasn't even that he was like, it's for procreation and only for procreation. Right. But that it was like, no, it's the cement of. All that is good, like the cement, I loved that quote, and I'm so glad you included it.
I remember being like, what, Barley Preachy Pratt said that? Where has this been all my life? No, I, I just, I think that that is so cool. And also, I, I think, I think, I'm so glad you brought this up about just the root of [00:13:00] Of the gospel of, of the church, our doctrine, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints doctrine is so sex positive and body positive and more, and, and that was not something I really understood until I spent time understanding other religions and realized, oh wow, this could have been a lot harder view.
And would have been a lot harder for me. So, I'm so glad you brought those things up. Go ahead, keep going, tell us more.
Bonnie: So, I mean, we, we could probably talk about that at length. I'll go to another thing that I think was, you know, generally very positive. For most, you know, maybe I'm making broad general generalizations here, and I know that this doesn't encapsulate everyone's experience, but I think.
The limits that the law of chastity, at least as I understood it created a lot of safety and a lot of respect. so I just, I can't tell you how many times I've [00:14:00] sat across from clients who have you know, been a part or partaken in the hookup culture, which is so rampant. I would say it's very, maybe a little bit more normative than maybe, you know, living the standards.
As outlined by the church and but I believe that the hookup culture is foundationally anti feminist. Normally it is. Men don't benefit in the long term from hookup culture, but it is normally the women, the girls that I've sat across from in therapy that have just wept as they've talked about feeling used and disrespected and Just this deep, this deep need to feel loved and accepted by someone and trying to get that through sexuality.
But going, going about it in a way where there was no relational foundation to build upon in the first place. Kind of, I guess, taking things out of order. And I just think that has set up so many [00:15:00] people for heartbreak. And it's a really, really bad way. I don't want to. I would say it's a very counterproductive method to go about building a long lasting, respectful, mutually mutually respectful relationship and and the reason why is not because sex is bad or it's bad to have sex.
It's because sex is meant to be relational. It's meant to exist between committed partners. And, you know, maybe we could look to our religious teachings to support that. I can also look at neuroscience. Right. So we look at the hormones that are released during a sexual experience. And there are two main hormones that are released during sex.
We've got dopamine, which is, you know, related with kind of short term rewards. We get dopamine when we do things that are fun and feel good. So, right, this is, this is maybe like the more motivating [00:16:00] neurotransmitter that's being fired. But also another hormone that's released during sex is oxytocin and oxytocin is also known as the cuddle hormone, but that's the same hormone that's released during labor and like childbirth for women during breastfeeding and also during sex.
It's meant to create strong bonds between people
Crishelle: Yeah.
Bonnie: like a mother to a baby and, and between romantic partners. And what that tells me is sex isn't meant. Right.
Crishelle: the, like, dopamine pleasure thing.
Bonnie: Exactly.
Crishelle: Yeah, but really deep connecting. Like, rich. Yeah, I love that you're going there with the dopamine. And the oxytocin.
Bonnie: Yeah. Like it's meant to bond us and I like to talk about sex a lot, not just as You know this physical experience, but as this soulful union where we're bringing our whole selves We're bringing our body [00:17:00] and our souls and we are sharing and celebrating This creating with another person and to me like Gavin neuroscience kind of backs that up This isn't meant to be just so I think the the laws and the limitations around sexual behavior that we learn You know growing up in the church or in most conservative religions Really are protective and help to build a foundation where that soulful union can take place.
Crishelle: Yeah. And beautifully said. And I, and I, I also love that you acknowledged that maybe that's not everyone's experience with understanding the law of chastity or, and, and, and that's what I hope this podcast, this episode can do for you is maybe shift some of those things, or maybe help you realize, wow, I could view that, or I could have.
You know, and heal those parts of you that wanted to see that different and, and, and have a [00:18:00] different experience with that. It's not too late. It's not too late. You have to have a different experience and to rewrite it and to, you know, find some healing and hope and, and, and to have this rich, beautiful, soulful experience that you're talking about when it comes to your sexuality and, and the deep bond that, that God really intended it to be.
to be. anD I, I just think that whenever I pause, which isn't super often, I wish it was more often, and, and just ponder about just our sexuality and the plan and like us being here, I just am like in such amazement. Of our God and, and our heavenly parents who love us so much and then provided this beautiful experience for us to experience like their power and their connection.
Oh, it's such a rich way in our relationships. [00:19:00] And, but also provided an incredible framework to keep that safe and protected and done in the right way. When understood. And that's what the law of chastity really is. Is this, it's this order that will help you build the most rich and beautiful relationship in life. As opposed to, I think a younger me just totally thought it was like the rules that I had to follow. In order to be a good girl. Right. But now I understand like is so much more than that. And, and I hope, you know, I hope I have two daughters and hopefully, you know, maybe one day more kids. And so maybe sons in the future.
I don't know, but I hope that I can teach my children that it's more than just like a set of rules that they need to follow or, Oh, I shouldn't kiss like that because my mom said I shouldn't kiss that like that way or whatever. But as a, I, I hope that I can help them see that the law [00:20:00] of chastity and their sexuality are blessings from God to help them do things in a way that really build that richness and that soulful connection that they yearn for, that every single one of us yearns for.
Bonnie: absolutely. Yeah. And I think also as I've grown, like the law of chastity has shifted for me from like a list of like do's and don'ts to, you know, a bigger picture of how can I live a congruent life, right? Because love chastity isn't just about. Don't do these things until you get married, and then once you're married, law of chastity ends, and it does not end on your wedding night, right?
The law of chastity helps us live with, with integrity around how do we, how do we respect other people? How do we view other people? Are we using other people? Are we using our sexuality selfishly, or [00:21:00] are we using it to create and to connect? And And that is just as relevant when you're 16 as when you're, you know, 56 and, and you've been married for a while maybe.
And and I think it, and it's with, with that congruence, with that integrity where, um, I think our sexuality, our eroticism can truly flourish in the most whole way. We're not fragmented ways that truly aren't as satisfying in the long run.
Crishelle: Beautifully said. Okay, so I love all the things we've talked about that have gone well for us. And, there are probably a lot of things, maybe, maybe not. Maybe only a couple things. Maybe let's talk about some of the things that we wish had gone better.
Bonnie: Yeah,
Crishelle: And again, these are broad generalizations. Like maybe [00:22:00] this happened for you.
Maybe it didn't. Yep. Let's go there.
Bonnie: let's go there. Okay. So the first. You know, as I was preparing to chat with you tonight the first thing that came to mind actually goes back to a comment that you made about like, man, I wish I had, you know, read this chapter when I was, when my body was developing. And I think, you know, I don't think that how you and I were probably taught about our bodies was truly rooted in any sort of doctrine, but maybe a little bit more had like some cultural influence.
Just the, the emphasis that especially women receive on You know, developing, I don't know how to put this intelligently, but maybe I'll just kind of use the words I would have used when I was 14, like Bonnie, there's something a little bit dangerous about you becoming a woman. And you gotta watch out because you could create problems in other people because of your developing body. I don't know if this is [00:23:00] every woman's experience, but I know it. Is it the experience of at least a few people, including myself, and that is like, there's this fear, like, Ooh, like, I don't, I don't want my body to become something that could be a, an impetus for sin or a vehicle, like people, you know, or temptation
Crishelle: yeah.
Bonnie: or like, you know, so I was talking to a friend the other day and she talked about.
It's actually another friend who has an awesome podcast and she talked about, so she got her period when she was really, really young, I think she was like nine or 10. So a little bit earlier for girls, girls normally get it around 12 or 13. And actually, you know, studies are showing that that's you know, starting a little bit earlier for a lot of women, but at least when we were growing up, it was around them.
And but. You know, you would think that, oh man, starting your period nine, you're still in elementary school. There could be a lot of shame and embarrassment, but she remembers her mom [00:24:00] being so excited and she remembers, I know. And her, I forget if she was in fourth or fifth grade. When you're nine, probably fourth.
anD she remembers her teacher coming over to her and inviting her up to her desk and, and kind of showing her, you know, privately, this wasn't in front of other people. Like she pulled out a drawer in her desk that had some period products and she's like, congratulations. Welcome to the club. If you ever need anything, this is a special drawer just for you.
And my friend remembers feeling, I know my friend just remembers feeling so special. Like, wow. Like. This is a really exciting thing, which I think a lot of girls when they get their period, it's maybe it's the opposite experience. It's like, Oh, the burden has arrived. You know, like, I know that was, you know, I had so much shame around my period and starting my period and, you know, it was so embarrassed, heaven forbid, everyone, anyone know that, you know, I
was becoming a [00:25:00] woman.
Crishelle: even other girls, right? I,
Bonnie: Yeah.
Crishelle: I still related to that part in your book, and I'll just reference it and give enough context, but the part in your book where you're like, you don't even want to open the pad in the bathroom because heaven forbid someone else know that you're on your
Bonnie: Yeah.
Crishelle: And that is so real. And I'm sure that that wasn't just a girl experience. I'm sure there were changes happening for men that were hard and uncomfortable or made fun of or. That just, let's shift that, let's do it different.
Bonnie: Exactly. Like like treating that with, like, respect and with excitement and like, you know, how, how can we be like that elementary school teacher? How can we be like my friend's mom, you know, when we're, when we're relating to these young people in talking about the goodness of like, you know, this is awesome.
This marks. It's such an exciting transition and, you know, so excited for you and welcome to the [00:26:00] club. And, you know so I think that that's something that is room for improvement. I think another, another story that came to my mind as I was thinking about this, you know, about, you know, kind of the burden I felt of like becoming a woman or the fear I felt around being objectified with my body. I thought about experiences that I had have had throughout my life when my body wasn't automatically sexualized. And that was, like, so empowering for me. So for a little bit of context, my husband and I, after our first daughter was born, we moved to Spain and we were there for a couple years. And you know, living abroad sounds really like, I don't know, exciting.
It was actually really lonely. But there were some beautiful things that we learned from the Spanish people and from the people that we were surrounded by there. One of the things that I really loved Was [00:27:00] how open women and men were about breastfeeding and I mean, not that men were breastfeeding, but, you know, sometimes I've been in circles where it's like a woman is breastfeeding and she's asked to go to a different room or like the men begin acting very uncomfortable as if she's doing something wrong because breastfeeding is somehow sexual.
I think that's very much a cultural thing. And I don't expect, you know, that that would, would change overnight and in our culture. But but breastfeeding isn't sexual, there's nothing less sexual than breastfeeding
Crishelle: Amen to that.
Bonnie: a baby. And but it was very, very freeing for me to be able to use my body in a way that God intended me to use my body without it being automatically.
Sexualized and objectified and I felt so it was interesting. I felt so safe I felt so safe breastfeeding [00:28:00] there, you know not having to cover up because No one treated me like I was doing something that was inappropriate. And it's cause it's not inappropriate.
Crishelle: Right.
Bonnie: But
Crishelle: they're built for.
Bonnie: exactly. I mean, breasts have many, have many purposes and uses, you know, the original, you know, multi tool.
But but but I guess the flexibility there, right. Is something that I think is. Really healthy to have that flexibility around a woman's body that at any time a woman's body is uncovered that it's not automatically objectified and that she's not immediately blamed right women, women receive so much blame for their bodies, and men and women are taught to blame women.
And so I think that's I think that's a place where there's room for improvement.
Crishelle: Definitely. I very much agree with that. I like that. So we talked a little bit about the law of chastity. And how it is a beautiful framework. [00:29:00] I think sometimes it's taught in a way that doesn't come across that way. It comes across as like, this is what you have to do and this is what you need to not do.
And like very rigid and very shaming and also like somehow not very clear also. So can we talk a little bit about how can we help that go better?
Bonnie: Yeah, you know, I don't know if this is going to exactly answer your question, but here's some relate. This is where my pregnant brain is going in response to your question. And that is right when, when we're talking about don't do this, the do this, we're kind of talking about sex as like okay. Let me, let me back up for most people,
Crishelle: Mm
Bonnie: and I'm going to be like, really frank and maybe clear and how I should talk about this.
Crishelle: hmm. It's a good thing, you know?
Bonnie: So if there are young listeners, maybe, [00:30:00] maybe if they're young listeners, maybe like turned on the volume or something, but I think a lot of times when we're talking about the law of chastity, what people are understanding is don't have intercourse. And for most people, when they hear the word sex, they think intercourse. And so when people are asking what's okay in the law of chastity, sometimes what they're asking is what is okay to do up to penetration. And I think that that rigidity just Produces all sorts of problems. And I think you
Crishelle: And probably misses the mark too, you know? Like, not only does it create problems, but it's also like, that's not totally the point.
Bonnie: Yeah,
Crishelle: At least, at least that's been my experience. I was like, oh wow, this is about way more than just like, what I do with my boyfriend or not. Anyway, go ahead where you're going. I hope I [00:31:00] didn't
Bonnie: no, you're fine. Hey, and if you derail, we'll go there. But but I, you know, I think one, one thing that gets us. So like with the clients that I worked with with, you know, different forms of sexual dysfunction, whether that's erectile dysfunction or an inability to orgasm or a lot of difficulty with arousal, a lot of it can kind of be tied back to very rigid understandings of what counts as sex.
Very rigid understandings of what counts as a good sexual experience. Lemme give you an example. So this is a long time ago and this was a client who came in. He only came in for one session, , he only needed one session. And I wanna emphasize that 'cause like. You know, sometimes we just need information and we just need to know that we're normal.
But he was newly married and and I think according to the world he grew up in, good sex meant that [00:32:00] he had an erection, the entire sexual encounter, and then there was penetration and then everyone was happy and they lived happily ever after. But that wasn't his experience and and His his erection fluctuated during the sexual encounter and and his wife, they were newly married probably out of her own insecurity of maybe what that meant about her.
Like, oh man, if my husband doesn't have an erection the whole time, maybe that means he's not attracted to me or, you know, something's wrong with me made a comment to him that felt maybe shameful for him or embarrassing for him. Like, what's wrong with you that you don't. You know, that your body isn't performing in the one right way that it should be performing.
Crishelle: Yeah.
Bonnie: All he needed was to come in. I told him, dude, so normal. Most men, especially if they're focusing on their female partners during a sexual encounter will gain and lose interaction multiple times. Don't worry about it. And then he was like, Oh, really? Okay. [00:33:00] And left and never came back. And which was good.
I mean, I like my clients to come back if they need help, but he didn't need more. And and I think that this kind of goes back for like, Or two, these really rigid rules for sex that you know, what counts as sex. I think another unfortunate outcome of having really rigid rules around like what counts as sex and sex only being valid if like penetration is happening is a lot of women are, their, their experience isn't like focused on or valued as much.
Most women don't experience. A lot of arousal or you know, even orgasm only through penetration. In fact, for most women, it is grossly insufficient to only do that. And I cannot overemphasize insufficient. That's the only thing. No, there's lots of women who really enjoy that. And, and people can figure out ways that penetration can , you know, be really arousing and satisfying for women as well.
But for most women, that's not , that's not [00:34:00] the first step. And and. Doesn't really lead to like, right. If, if both partners aren't having a great experience, it doesn't lead to this soulful connection where like both people are enjoying the capacities of their bodies to experience arousal and connection that you can only really experience.
In a state of, of, of eroticism. And so I think that having really rigid rules around what counts as sex really can be a disservice to men and women.
Crishelle: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think also, and you touched on this a little bit earlier in the podcast, but you talked about how if our sexuality is only about like pleasing ourself or, we're only worried about our experience or we're using our sexuality in a selfish way we're viewing other people in a selfish way and you said it way better than i'm i just want to go back to that thought too in talking about this is that [00:35:00] it's going to be really difficult to have a deep and meaningful sexual experience if you're only worried about yourself and doing it right As opposed to really connecting with the other person, helping the other person to feel safe and loved and, and totally just they're with them.
And, and there's space for you. , it's this beautiful paradox that you get to experience. But I think that the law of chastity, even like stepping back into that dating, when you're dating and before you're married, the law of chastity, it's to protect you. And it's, it's to help you do things in right order, but it's also to help you to focus not on yourself and to focus on , how can you create A safe experience for the other person.
And vice versa. How can you have more respect for the other person? And how can you develop this mutual respect [00:36:00] and, and trust that can withstand the many years ahead when you do make that choice to be married? And the many struggles and , that's really what it's about, is I feel like it helps lay a foundation Of, of mutual respect and trust and, and working together and putting aside maybe your , carnal desire to work together towards the goal of...
of something bigger, right? Like, there's so many good things that come from doing those things right, but I don't think those, that is emphasized very often when we talk about the law of chastity. We're just like, don't mess up, and if you do, make it better, kind of thing, right?
Bonnie: Mm hmm.
Crishelle: as opposed to like, this is what you're working to build,
Bonnie: Yeah.
Crishelle: this is why we're working to build that.
Bonnie: Yeah. I love that. And I, and I just think that our sexuality, [00:37:00] this has been my experience. So maybe kind of personal here. I won't be like, I promise I won't overshare and like make people uncomfortable. So this is a side note. Right. So like. As a person who studies sexuality, I've written about sexuality.
I have a lot of people come up to me and I think they just assume like, Oh, Bonnie is, wants to hear everything. So I was like at a conference this last weekend and I heard some really interesting stories. And I was like, wow, you know, thanks for telling me also. That's. private. So I promise I'm not going to do that to listeners, but and not to shame people for sharing about sexuality.
It's a blessing that, that we can have open conversations about it. But I think it's also, we have to find that wise space that might be too much information anyway. Like if you're making me blush, then maybe it's like a [00:38:00] sex therapist. So but so sharing a little bit of my personal experience, like I think that sexuality has been one of the most powerful forces.
In me understanding God and understanding repentance, understanding growth, our sexuality is so, you know, present. It's so constant, you know, whether that's the constant nature of having sexual desire or the lack of I think it can go both ways. But I think that I think that that was designed with a purpose.
Because I think we can use our sexuality as a catalyst to become better version of ourselves, a more humble, honest embodied merciful, connected version of ourselves. I mean, I think about the things that have driven the [00:39:00] most growth in my marriage with Sam, again, referencing my hot, amazing husband.
And and I think that our sexuality... And figuring that out together, forgiving each other, growing, you know, being creative together supporting each other. It all comes back to just like sexuality as this as this catalyst for incredible growth. And I think people who maybe made mistakes or haven't lived congruently, I think there can be a lot of shame.
They're like, Oh, I did one of the worst things that you can do. And I actually think that's a misinterpretation of scripture. We could talk about that another day, but I mean, I think God cares a lot about that. But I also think that, man, there is so much mercy and understanding for people who've made mistakes.
Man, and it's impossible in this world we live in. And that's not to excuse behavior. Of course, we want to have integrity and we want [00:40:00] to, we have values that matter to us. But I think viewing sexuality is like, okay, yeah, this, this is here and it was meant. In different ways, different avenues. This, this is something that can be me to growth and to become better,
Crishelle: Yeah.
Bonnie: you know, whatever that looks like.
So I think that's another way that maybe, you know, the, the more rigid conversations around, like, don't do this and do this. And if you don't do it, that's really bad. And if you do this, you know, like, I think that maybe doesn't take into account the purpose of the plan of this life, which is like, we're here just to.
Yeah. Make mistakes and then to turn to Christ and to grow with him. And then we fall again and then our capacity to love and have empathy and connect with other people. It's like, yeah, as soul wrenching as it is, like it's also just this really sublime, beautiful process. And I think sexuality for so many of us is at the center of that.
Crishelle: Yeah. I feel like often [00:41:00] that, like the, don't do this or, oh my gosh, you're like the, the scared or like the fear of, oh, I'm worried about you. You're you, you guys seem like you're going too far. Like that kind of stuff. I'm like, where's Jesus in that? Like, where is he? You know? Like, and, and I remember I remember having a conversation with my sister where it was just like, You know, I really just want this to go different for you.
I want you to have less anxiety. I had so much anxiety, so much anxiety about the law of chastity before I was married, like too much, honestly. And I, my wish for you is that you don't have that experience and that, you know, that like, know that I trust you to figure it out, like you're going to figure it out. And I trust that you know what is right and what is wrong ultimately. Like, you know that. And you're going to feel that. And as you, as you follow that, it's going, like, if you will listen to that, it's [00:42:00] going to lead you to what you really want. Which is that, that deep connection and the, the trust and the love and that, that you're really looking for.
And, and if you like, don't listen to it and that Christ came and he actually came for both ways. Like he, he came to help you do what's right. And he also came to help you when you don't, and it's going to totally work out. And I, I guess that conversation is just like stuck with me because I'm like, Yes, that, that like, that is so true on every aspect of our life, but especially when it comes to our sexuality.
You are not without his reach ever. No matter what you've done, or what you think you have, like, no matter where you're at.
I think that that is just like really resonated with me because it's so, it's true that His grace and his mercy. There is so much grace and mercy and, and help from heaven. [00:43:00] No matter where you're at on that spectrum of, of listening, like you will know, like, you know, you know what is right.
You know what is wrong. You have been given that gift from God. And as you walk, That line as you walk that path as you walk this path this path It's not even that like it doesn't end right as you walk the path of life His mercy is there every single step of the way and and I Oh, man I just think I want everyone to listen to this.
I'm like, I'm going to send this literally to everyone that ever lived and had just because I'm like, this is what we all need to know. This is what we all need is, is to know that, that , your sexuality is a gift from God. And it is part of this. And I love what you said about it being so pervasive that [00:44:00] it's almost, it's, it's really hard not to understand.
Because it's always there. And, and, as you strive, I'm saying this probably not great, but as you strive to, as you strive to understand your sexuality, as you strive to really team up with someone else, and, and have beautiful, a beautiful life together, it is such a purifying and sanctifying experience.
That, that is really beautiful and meaningful. And it can also be a source of pain and hardship. And, and I want to acknowledge that, like, I have definitely been there where it has not, you know, and that's, if you haven't listened to our first episode, you can hear about my, how I got involved in this and my family of origin.
And, and I've seen incredible pain from other people's choices to misuse their, misuse their sexuality and, and to. you know, [00:45:00] not make great choices. It is so hard. And, but all of that can be reconciled. And, and it can be healed. And it's okay. Like you're, never will you ever be without his reach.
Bonnie: I love that. Another thing that's, you know, really related. I remember I was taking a class at BYU. I don't know if they offer anymore, but it was from Mark Butler, who's in the School of Family Life and it's awesome. And it's done a lot of work with pornography use. I remember one of the things he said is like the teenage brain, I mean, if you think about teenage brains, right?
I have asked, like, why did God give teenagers such. incredible physical capacity with, you know, especially with their sexuality and also parrot with the very underdeveloped brain. And, and, and that's not just, you know, that that's not, that's not , a diss on teenagers. It's a [00:46:00] stage that we all went through.
But I remember Mark Butler, Dr. Butler talking about the teenage brain. Was made so that we could understand the atonement Jesus Christ and but like, I mean, and I would, I would even, you know, extend that to say like all of our brains, all of our humanity was made, but I think especially, you know, for a lot of teenagers who feel like, oh, I just keep on making mistakes over and over and over and over and I'm impulsive and I, you know, um, that I remember feeling really touched by.
By his teachings, but but I think, as we're orienting ourselves and our sexuality toward this goal of soulful connection of creating something beautiful. With our partner. I think that that's where we're going to find the most joy. I think another place where we could have some room for improvement is, you know, I think that there's a lot of issues, trouble that arises when we talk about sex as a [00:47:00] need.
I Don't think anyone ever has like found a lot of joy and soulful connection when they're checking a box or scratching an itch. And when we talk about sex as a need for most couples, that's kind of what it becomes. And normally it becomes, um, a woman taking care of a need for a man. So not fun for the woman because who likes chores and not fun for a man because what man likes to feel.
That connecting with him sexually is a chore. And so I think we get into a lot of, a lot of disfunction again when we talk about sex as a need. I think it's much more enlivening and enriching when we talk about sex as a place that we go to, to celebrate our connection. A place that we go together for replenishment, for encouragement, for fun for connection.
I think that, you know, how we talk about it really matters. And and what we use it for also really matters.[00:48:00]
Crishelle: Yeah, beautifully said and I think that echoes and maybe gives a little bit of insight for like anyone who's like wait How does the law of chastity apply after marriage? I think you just nailed it Like it's really the law of chastity can help guide and and help you understand that it's it's so much more Than just yeah scratching that itch or checking the box or like oh, we did it this many times this month No, like it's it's really about helping you to connect and to just deepen and have that soulful, beautiful experience.
And I, I think it's so beautiful because that's really what God wants for us. He wants us to feel that deep connection with each other and with Him. And I know that that can, them, I, I want to include Heavenly Mother in that, like, that can feel really distant at times because they're not here. And, but We are [00:49:00] all so connected.
We are all of us as a human race. That's why when you hear hard things in the news, they, they often hurt. Really bad. And I feel like there's been a lot of that lately. I mean, and you feel a lot of pain for people that you don't even know on the other side of the earth, because we, that's a part of our human experience is to be able to like love and be with each other, to mourn with those that mourn, to comfort those that stand in need and comfort, and to have this deep, soulful, rich, beautiful connection.
with your spouse. All of that is part of this beautiful human, human experience and, and I hope as we move forward and teach the next generation, I hope that we can teach them about their sexuality with a lot more Jesus, a lot more grace, a lot more mercy and a lot more, Joy [00:50:00] in this is what your your body your your experience.
I'm so excited that your period's here I'm so excited that you're figuring out how your how your penis works and all that like I'm so excited for you Like I hope it can be shame free and full of joy, you know really joyful for for the next generation so that they can know that they are perfect just as they are and God will help them every step of the way. Bonnie, do you have anything else you want to share
Bonnie: No, I just feel like you dropped like this beautiful, this beautiful ending to this conversation. I think you tied everything together so well. So wonderfully, and I just want to echo what you said. I absolutely agree.
Crishelle: Bonnie, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for our friendship over the years. I know we don't like hang out all the time but every time I see you I'm just so grateful that we met all those years ago talking [00:51:00] about pornography and dating.
Bonnie: As in my first shell, this has been lovely. This has been a lovely conversation. Thanks for having me on the show.
Crishelle: Thank you for listening to Breaking the Silence by Reach 10. Break the silence and help us create a culture of courage and compassion by sharing what you learned today with someone you love. Help us reach more people by rating and reviewing us on iTunes or liking and leaving a comment on to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes.
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