Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
[AUTO-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT]
00:00:00:20 - 00:00:28:23
David Sirota
Everyone, welcome to another episode of Lever Time, the flagship podcast from The Lever, an independent investigative news outlet. I'm your host, David Sirota, on today's show, The one and only AOC. That's right, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she joins us. In the lead up to this interview, We asked Lever readers to send in their questions for AOC, and we asked as many of them as we could.
00:00:29:09 - 00:01:04:19
David Sirota
We discussed everything from her push to impeach Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas to what she's planning to do to try to stop the Biden administration's ongoing lurch to the right. We also talked about whether or not she believes her House Democratic colleagues need to face primary challenges. And also AOC responds to those who have criticized her for voting to break rail workers strike and those who have criticized her for not withholding her House votes more often to try to get Democratic leaders to stick to their progressive campaign promises.
00:01:05:04 - 00:01:27:06
David Sirota
This week in our premium podcast Feed, just for our paid subscribers, we also have two things for you. The first, an extended portion of our interview with AOC, where I ask her to describe in detail the influence of money in Congress and how it works on a day to day level. It was a fascinating first look. Sorry, It was a fascinating first person.
00:01:27:06 - 00:01:53:00
David Sirota
Look at the corruption of the halls of power. Also on the premium fee for our paid subscribers. A special bonus episode exploring the surprise and huge win of progressive brand and Johnson over corporate backed candidate Paul Vallas in Chicago's big mayoral election this week. Just a heads up, we're going to be posting a lot more bonus content in our Lever Premium podcast feed.
00:01:53:06 - 00:02:16:16
David Sirota
If you're not already a paying subscriber and you want access to our premium content, head on over to lever News.com and become a supporting subscriber. Right now, this gives you access to the lever time premium podcast feed with all the extended interviews and bonus content plus, as a paid subscriber, you'll have access to all of the in-depth reporting and investigative journalism that we do here at the Lever.
00:02:16:18 - 00:02:45:12
David Sirota
And you're helping fund that journalism. Just hit the subscribe button at Lever News.com to support the work we do. Also, if you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate your help. Tell your friends, tell your family about lever time, leave a rating and review on your podcast player. Independent media will only grow and thrive because of passionate people and word of mouth, so we need all the help we can get to combat the inane bullshit that is corporate media.
00:02:46:01 - 00:02:50:08
David Sirota
As always, I'm here today with Lever Time's producer Jared. What's up? Producer? Jared.
00:02:50:08 - 00:03:12:05
Jared Jacang Maher
Hey, David. Exciting week with Trump's indictment and charging the media fervor almost made me feel like we were back in 2018. There's no one's wearing masks. We're not solely focused on Trump and his outrageous crimes. 24 seven on every single channel. I was like, Hey, this is almost kind of like retro.
00:03:12:09 - 00:03:31:22
David Sirota
It was kind of it was kind of retro. And as a preview, we talked to AOC about Trump's indictment a lot of back and forth in the in kind of the media space. Is it good, is it bad that Trump is being indicted? I mean, I have no there's no love lost here for for Donald Trump and I think if he committed crimes, he needs to he needs to answer for them.
00:03:32:19 - 00:03:55:17
David Sirota
I think it's kind of a sad commentary on our system that Donald Trump can kind of break all sorts of laws, do all sorts of lawless things. And they're only now indicting him on, you know, it's not a technical issue. I mean, if these are crimes and we should say,
00:03:55:17 - 00:03:59:22
Jared Jacang Maher
Hush money payments to a porn star and...
00:03:59:22 - 00:04:24:16
David Sirota
All right. And so I don't think two wrongs make a right. So if he's wrong here, if he's committed crimes, he deserves to be held accountable for that. But it's just kind of like that's what we're what he's being nailed on like that. Like, I'm not saying that's if he committed those crimes, that those aren't kind of a big deal, but it's just kind of amazing.
00:04:24:23 - 00:04:48:00
David Sirota
Now, listen, I know the argument is that, hey, they got Al Capone on tax evasion, right? Point being, that's the idea that Al Capone was doing all sorts of horrible things and they only ultimately got him on kind of paperwork. Right. And so the the argument is, is that whatever you can get a quote unquote bad guy on is fine, Throw the book at the villain, throw the book at the bad guy.
00:04:48:00 - 00:05:30:12
David Sirota
I just think I do think it is kind of an indictment on our on our system that Donald Trump could behave so lawlessly for so long and only he only gets nailed on this. Now, I will say I the part of the discourse that I don't think is all that valid is this idea that by indicting Donald Trump, it creates a so-called dangerous precedent, this idea that, well, you know, indicting a former president, this is the first former president ever indicted, creates a precedent where the people in government will use the criminal justice apparatus to punish their political enemies.
00:05:31:06 - 00:05:52:17
David Sirota
I don't buy that because while I understand that that has happened in other authoritarian countries, I also think you also don't want to give a get out of jail free card to presidents. Right. You don't want to say just because you're president, just because we don't typically prosecute former presidents when you leave office, that you get to do whatever you want.
00:05:52:17 - 00:06:03:05
David Sirota
I mean. Right. Like the current system before this before this indictment was sort of saying that a president can do whatever they want and rest assured they'll never get prosecuted for it.
00:06:03:05 - 00:06:22:22
Jared Jacang Maher
Right. Yeah. And if Trump is able to get away with all of these crimes, right. Like a one man criminal conspiracy and the buffet of different indictments or a different, you know, criminal possible criminal charges that are that are floating around.
00:06:23:10 - 00:06:41:03
David Sirota
And if we can't even get him on this. Right. Like that's a precedent also on the other end. That's right. That's right. And look, I don't want to give it away, but I ask AOC this question in our upcoming interview. I ask her, you know, would it be so bad if George W Bush got indicted for war crimes?
00:06:41:16 - 00:07:04:07
David Sirota
Would it be bad for Bill Clinton to be investigated over his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? Would it be so bad for the Obama administration to be investigated for creating a kill list? Right. Like, I don't think the current way we have it down where we've been giving out, get out of jail free cards to two former presidents and that that's just the norm.
00:07:04:07 - 00:07:30:12
David Sirota
I don't think that's a good norm either. So, you know, but I do hear I, I mean, I hear the fear that this kind of thing will get out of control. It'll get tit for tat. But I also think you got to have a justice system. You have to have some confidence in due process, Right. I mean, I realize due process, a lot of people who get ensnared in the criminal justice system don't get adequate due process.
00:07:30:12 - 00:07:48:13
David Sirota
I mean, I think Donald Trump is going to get fairly adequate due process. He's got lots of lawyers. I think, you know, there's a big spotlight on this, but I don't think the existing norm of every president gets a get out of jail free card because they were president, because we we can't look back. I mean, that was the crazy thing, if you remember that.
00:07:48:18 - 00:08:07:11
David Sirota
That was the crazy thing with the Obama administration. Right. When Obama got in, he there was that New York Times story where he said he didn't want to look back at the past programs and potential transgressions of the of the Bush administration. This was like after the the lawless surveillance. This was after the Iraq war and the lies that got us into that.
00:08:07:14 - 00:08:38:08
David Sirota
I don't think that was a good norm either. But as I said, we will get into the Trump indictment in our big interview, and that is what is coming up next. Our big interview with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says. But first, let's take a quick break. Welcome back to our time for our big interview today. We are joined by Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as otherwise known as AOC, the Democratic lawmaker from New York.
00:08:38:18 - 00:09:11:07
David Sirota
Back in 2018, AOC pulled off. What I have long said is the most difficult thing to do in all of American politics defeating an incumbent in a party primary, that kind of thing. Almost never, ever, ever, ever happens. But it happened in 2018 when Ocasio-Cortez won her U.S. House seat, having never before run for office, she's since become one of the most famous and one of the most controversial members of Congress.
00:09:11:18 - 00:09:47:05
David Sirota
Before this interview, we asked Lever readers to send in their questions. So a big thank you to everyone who did. We tried to get to as many of your questions as we could. In fact, most of the questions I asked were amalgams of the questions everyone emailed us. So thanks again for that. With the 2024 election cycle coming up, we asked AOC about what progressive lawmakers and candidates can do to overcome huge outside spending that has overwhelmed these party primaries, often, most often on behalf of corporate candidates.
00:09:47:17 - 00:10:12:14
David Sirota
I also asked AOC to share her thoughts on how the Medicare for All movement seems, at least for now, to have stalled and why health care is no longer an issue for Democrats. Why? Where did the health care issue go? Additionally, AOC talked about the climate crisis and also how pervasive and powerful the money is in Congress. There was a lot of talk about money.
00:10:13:02 - 00:10:24:16
David Sirota
And she addressed the disillusionment felt by many people who think neither of the major parties cares about them. Congresswoman, thanks so much for being with us.
00:10:25:04 - 00:10:26:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Of course. Thanks for having me.
00:10:26:22 - 00:10:47:06
David Sirota
So I want to start with some breaking news Just before we're talking today. ProPublica breaks open the story of Clarence Thomas accepting luxury private jet and yacht trips from a billionaire Republican donor. It sounds like something out of a cartoon caricature of corruption. It's a story that seems to encapsulate all of the Supreme Court corruption that everyone kind of senses.
00:10:47:06 - 00:11:03:19
David Sirota
But now it's like right out in the open and you're calling for Clarence Thomas's impeachment. So the first question I have is, are you going to draft those articles of impeachment and do you expect to have the support of many, if not most, of the House Democratic Caucus?
00:11:04:10 - 00:11:28:22
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, listen, I think this is an emergency. I think that this is a crisis. I think we've had a crisis for some time on the Supreme Court. And, you know, so to get to the heart of your question, we Congress is out of session for the next week. And so that does give Democrats sometimes some time to strategize.
00:11:29:07 - 00:11:51:10
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And the way I feel about it is that the I do think articles need to be introduced if we decide strategically that the actual author of those articles and who introduces them may not be me, that's fine. I will support impeachment. But I just think that if no one's going to introduce it, I would certainly be open to doing so and drafting them myself.
00:11:51:10 - 00:12:01:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think this is gone far, far beyond any sort of acceptable standard in in any democracy, let alone an American democracy.
00:12:01:02 - 00:12:12:12
David Sirota
So let's turn to the 2024 election. We're going to talk about politics, then we'll talk about Congress start. Let's start with the 2024 election, Even though we just got done the 2022 election.
00:12:12:17 - 00:12:13:03
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah.
00:12:14:00 - 00:12:45:18
David Sirota
You won office through a contested Democratic primary, one in which very few pundits and party operatives said you even had a chance to win. With that history in mind, do you believe more House Democratic incumbents should face primaries? Do you believe that the primary process is healthy for the Democratic Party? Or there's another school of thought that says it weakens Democratic candidates and the party should work to try to stop those primaries?
00:12:46:12 - 00:13:37:07
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
No, I am I do believe that primaries are healthy. I you know, when I first got to the House, not, you know, not just through winning a primary, but when I was sworn in afterwards, the even even just a public acknowledgment that a primary process involving incumbents is legitimate and healthy for the party, I was just completely taboo and me supporting that and including supporting primary challenger as and afterwards it really kind of the party declared war right back and they declared war not just on my candidacy but also on progressives writ large.
00:13:37:07 - 00:14:03:14
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And we really saw that, I think last cycle with particularly the overwhelming amount of of eight PAC funds that really targeted progressives, including incumbents that had, you know, that had stances that were in alignment with respect for Palestinian human rights. And so, you know, not just there, but from other parts of it. And I understand that it also goes both ways.
00:14:04:08 - 00:14:22:14
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
My first reelection, the party you know, the party establishment mounted a $5 million primary challenge against me. So I'm aware that saying that primaries are a good thing and healthy for the party also means that I may be on the receiving end of those things, but I still maintain that position.
00:14:23:03 - 00:14:57:06
David Sirota
So you mentioned AIPAC. I mean, they coordinated millions of dollars in superPAC spending against progressives as you allude to last election cycle, some early one in Pennsylvania. But their spending helped defeat folks like Jessica Cisneros, Donna Edwards, and 11. Nina Turner, What can progressive candidates and incumbents do to overcome that kind of spending this cycle? And I want to be precise about this, which is to say that not everyone can be as well-known as, for instance, you are.
00:14:57:07 - 00:15:21:05
David Sirota
So I think about this. I you know, my wife is in a legislature, right? It's like, you know, there's this idea of, you know, you just go out and you you do the best you can, but it's you got to raise your profile to raise the money in order to be competitive. So how do progressive candidates, let's say, for for the House in this election cycle, how do you how would you advise them to deal with the possibility of huge money coming in into a primary to spend against them?
00:15:21:20 - 00:15:57:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, well, you know, I think first and foremost, money does not ultimately, it's not ultimately the end all be all of how a person can win an election for a very long time. You know, it has been the case that the person who raises the most money wins. However, I do believe that in the technological and tactical evolution of campaigning, particularly in the progressive movement, we are starting to see more people win while being outspent.
00:15:57:00 - 00:16:21:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, we just had Brandon Johnson win the mayoral candidacy in Chicago, and he was outspent 2 to 1 on television and and yet he won. We saw Karen Bass running for the mayoral seat in Los Angeles, and she was running against a billionaire, very well-funded. And she was still able to win it across, you know, get things across the line.
00:16:21:09 - 00:16:50:13
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think that really what this is about is building a very sophisticate, heated infrastructure in the progressive movement that focuses on field operations and really professionalizing how we are able to to share that across the movement, because far too many campaigns start from scratch. And and that's something that, you know, I've been thinking about a lot and been working on about.
00:16:50:22 - 00:17:13:17
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I have a I have a pact, a courage to change that focuses on down ballot elections and supporting progressive that are exactly in that similar boat where they they aren't able to tap into these high net worth fundraising circles in order to to build a super well-funded campaign. And so when you do that and having been there when I ran the first time, it was the same thing.
00:17:15:01 - 00:17:42:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
You got to know how to run a street fight in a really professional way, and it needs to be down to precincts. It needs to be down to blocks. You need to know your path to victory. And this can't just be about like a post and pray approach. We need to know what we are doing and and thankfully, I think that there's been a lot of progress in that in that respect.
00:17:42:00 - 00:17:46:06
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But it is something that must be an ongoing commitment and project.
00:17:46:13 - 00:18:17:09
David Sirota
So let's turn to let's turn to Congress, the White House and the like. In the last few months, President Biden and his administration have broken rail workers strike. They repealed Washington DC's criminal justice reforms. They rejected a petition to lower the price of a major cancer drug and authorized a huge fossil fuel drilling project in Alaska. What are you and other progressives in the House planning to do about this move to the right?
00:18:17:09 - 00:18:25:06
David Sirota
And speaking of primaries. Do you believe it would be healthy for him in his reelection bid to face a primary?
00:18:25:22 - 00:18:51:22
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Well, you know, with respect to primaries, like as you as you mentioned earlier, and I have always stated that I will never be a person that says there should not be a primary. I just feel like because of the way that I got to Congress, it would be deeply hypocritical for me to to ever be against the existence of a primary process for a candidacy.
00:18:51:23 - 00:19:22:09
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I mean, just on principle that that is where I stand. I do believe that what some of the latest developments coming from the Biden administration are highly concerning, increasingly concerning. And this is also not just from an ideological perspective, not just from a substance perspective, which is the most important, but also from a political perspective. I think it is extremely risky and very perilous.
00:19:23:04 - 00:19:51:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Should the Biden administration forget who it was that actually put him over the top? And when you look at at the at the places, not just abstract levels of turnout, not just where numbers came from, but the places, these swing places that gave Joe Biden the edge on an electoral count victory. It was young people that that won him this election.
00:19:51:08 - 00:20:17:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Communities of color, high turnout areas and this lurch to the right in a time, mind you, when the right is scrambling and kind of lost in the desert on how to even win an election at this point after these stunning losses, I think is is a profound miscalculation. And it is one that actually, you know, is quite dangerous.
00:20:17:11 - 00:20:52:13
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so as far as pushing back, I think that the push back on the Biden administration's authorization of the Willow Project has been very encouraging. I think it has. It is important. We saw Biden's approval ratings dip for the first time in in a significant way. And recently and I believe it was after the approval of the Willow Project and some of these decisions to lurch to the right that are that have contributed to that.
00:20:52:14 - 00:21:28:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so I think what we really need right now is, is having that continued outside vocal organizing that allows us, when we are approaching the administration, to say this is why this is happening, that we can pull and point to grassroots movements that are telling that story as our evidence. Right. Because if we just kind of come up with that abstract claim, they're just going to think that it's conjecture that this is just our subject.
00:21:28:03 - 00:21:55:11
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Of course, you're going to see that this is what you already believe. But so, you know, I think it just emphasizes the importance of of that grassroots organizing, because it gives us really the ammunition and the evidence to to really tell the story about why this is important. And I do believe that the Biden administration, historically, particularly under chief of staff Ron Klain, understood that.
00:21:55:21 - 00:22:15:01
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I do believe that they that they do not take for granted the role of young people and the role of progressive turnout in their in their 2020 victory. The key is maintaining the boundary and letting them know that this is not something to be taken for granted.
00:22:15:15 - 00:22:39:19
David Sirota
So speaking of that, and I should mention, you know, our readers sent in questions. A lot of these questions are an amalgam of their questions. The squad has been billed as a block of votes that hold the Democratic caucus in the Biden administration accountable and to create that boundary. At one point you had said, and this I think is a quote in any other country, Joe Biden and I would not be in the same party, which I think is a commentary on the way our country's politics are set up.
00:22:40:07 - 00:23:06:15
David Sirota
However, you, for instance, have voted 91% of the time with the Biden administration that it includes votes on the rail workers strike, the spending. I think it was $40 billion on the Ukraine war, billions of dollars to microchip companies that have been criticized for using the cash to do buybacks. You and a group of progressives also didn't withhold your vote on the American rescue plan when the Biden administration kind of abandoned the minimum wage.
00:23:07:02 - 00:23:28:06
David Sirota
So the question is, how can you hold your party accountable or create that boundary with the Biden administration when you and progressives in the Congress are oftentimes voting for what the party leadership wants, and not very rarely sometimes, but rarely holding out your vote when the party really, really needs it.
00:23:29:02 - 00:23:51:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so, you know, I want to address kind of two parts of that question. I'll I'll get to some of those specific votes. But I do want to emphasize that, you know, as as you mentioned, there are times where we do break with the party, for example, on Build Back better. That was a four year long war for sure.
00:23:51:01 - 00:24:16:19
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We had inside our party and listen, there were moments where in the lead up to that build back better and bipartisan infrastructure vote where the president of the United States was on speaker phone with us saying, you need to do this. And we said, how are you going to pay what, you know, the the pretense that the president had on this is vote for Beth.
00:24:17:02 - 00:24:46:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And trust me, I will get build back better across the line. And right there with us facing the president. We're saying respectfully it's this is not about in the framing here to give a window into how internal politics, the internal politics and party works is do you trust us or not? Do you trust this leadership? And you have to tell this person, right?
00:24:46:02 - 00:25:13:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
This is like this is, you know, Speaker Pelosi, president of United States, the vice president, you have members of the cabinet and and they use kind of like a collective environment. This is not a private conversation. They it's almost like an invitation to try to say in front of everybody and not challenge and to stand up to the speaker and to the president and say this is not a matter of trust at all.
00:25:13:01 - 00:25:57:19
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
This is a matter of votes. And it's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust Joe Manchin. And I don't know if I trust anybody to be able to bring consistency out of a person who does not have any. But all of that is to say is that I think that that some of these votes also speak to that progressive infrastructure that we're talking about when it comes to the rail vote, for example, we worked very closely with all elements of the of the rail workers, of real workers, both not just not just the Teamsters, not just some of some of the other formal unions, but also those members of the unions
00:25:57:19 - 00:26:24:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
that were rebelling against the initial round of these agreements. And it was in tandem with these organizations, like when you look at, for example. RW You and some of those folks that were leading the fight on opposing that initial agreement to to a terrible contract. Those were the folks that we were working with in developing our organizing strategy around this.
00:26:24:15 - 00:26:49:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And it was in following, you know, the work the actual rail workers lead both on both camps. This was not just about choosing traditional union leadership, but also that rank and file grassroots leadership that we tried to determine our strategy, that we worked with Senator Sanders and we worked with many others saying, how do you all want us to proceed?
00:26:49:20 - 00:27:16:11
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And that initial the initial push was to rubber stamp this agreement with no attempt at getting paid leave. And procedurally, what we were asked to do by that rank and file is to get us a paid leave vote. That was the determination. That was the organizing leading up to that vote. That was the request that was made of me, and that is why I agreed to deliver on.
00:27:16:19 - 00:27:53:07
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Now, I think on the other end of that, there is a difference between the this kind of like spontaneous digital response versus the actual organizing rooms and people that are that are directly impacted by this. And when you look after the vote, folks like. RW you were saying this is what we asked them to do. Now, granted, I think that got drowned out by the noise of just people kind of operating more on on on like the theory of the situation.
00:27:53:22 - 00:28:31:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But you know, I think ultimately there there are moments where there are going to be internal disagreements about strategy. It is so important, especially among the left, that we develop a discernment between when there are differences in strategy. Sometimes they are intense and sometimes they are rigorous and vigorous disagreements verses equating that that difference in strategy with somehow a 180 change in commitment to our vision and our principles.
00:28:31:20 - 00:29:03:10
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And trust me, there is so much money and so much interest I invested in sowing chaos on the left and I think there is a moment where we have to realize that the same tools that we that are good for us, you know, the the development of and the way that we can use the Internet to bypass some of the traditional structures that have kept our media gate, kept our political organizing, etc..
00:29:03:20 - 00:29:44:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
These are still algorithms owned by billionaires that want to incentivize internal conflict. And they do. And I do believe that there are times where we have fallen for it. That being said, that criticism like criticism is fair and that's okay. But many of these votes, what I think like if if I were to to ask for something, what we need is that a lot of times this organizing and reaction happens after a vote and before and in the lead up to a vote, we are often asking, backing some of our grassroots partners for a position.
00:29:44:16 - 00:30:16:09
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And in a lot of times and I think that this is also often for resource reasons, that organizing doesn't often happen until after the flash point has already occurred. And what is most useful, most beneficial is for that engagement to happen prior to a vote, prior to that development. Because you know, what we're able to do, for example, with the real vote is to like all like all the only partners that I have leading up to that were are real workers.
00:30:17:00 - 00:30:21:15
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And if that's what they asked us to do, you know, then then that's what we did.
00:30:22:02 - 00:30:45:17
David Sirota
I mean, I think your point about there being differences in tactics ending up being interpreted as a difference in values is a is a huge thing. I mean, it's just a huge issue. I guess I guess the philosophical question on that is I think there are a lot of people who look out at politics and see so much money invested in so many different outcomes that aren't good for people.
00:30:45:17 - 00:31:20:03
David Sirota
They see they perceive both parties selling them out in different ways, the Republicans being super extremist, the Democrats maybe saying the right thing, but oftentimes not delivering. I guess as just a follow, when people are from your perspective, misinterpreting a difference in tactics and strategy for a difference in values, do you blame them? And and and I guess how would you why shouldn't they see it that way if they feel like the political system has been selling them out for ten, 20, 30 years?
00:31:20:08 - 00:31:57:23
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I don't I don't blame a lot of people for that. I do blame some because I do believe that there are folks and leaders in the space that know better and they fan flames that they know are disingenuous for personal gain. And I think that that is there's there's a lot of incentive in that in when there is kind of an economy that has developed that is based on clicks, views and attention.
00:31:57:23 - 00:32:31:04
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And we know we know the thing that attracts that more than anything else is conflict. And so there are financial incentives for certain people, I believe, who's who's who's income revenue relies on that to stoke conflict. And frankly, it's a recreation of a lot of what we see in mass media. Right. Like mass media is so left, right heavy.
00:32:31:04 - 00:33:15:21
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
It's so Republican versus Democrat heavy, precisely because it drives I mean, a large contributors because it drives viewership. And I believe that when you get into more and meet niche audiences, it's the same thing that those similar conflicts can be driven by amplifying sometimes those disingenuous. It takes it to fan into left conflict, which is, I think and I want to also be thoughtful and create space for the fact, because I don't want to equate that with saying, you know, any criticism of our decisions is you're just playing into the hands of someone else.
00:33:17:00 - 00:33:41:07
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
There are you know, there are just multiple things that can be true at the same time. And, you know, I think that this is something that we that we need to to really develop and take out because a lot of these decisions are not last minute. They may happen last minute, but we can often see that they're coming from a long ways out.
00:33:41:12 - 00:34:06:14
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We just don't know exactly when. Right. But we will. And not just me as a member, but I believe that US movement, you see certain tensions happening. This scale up to the real vote was was months in the making. And so we had been in communication with workers for months about what what how do we want to see this unfold?
00:34:06:23 - 00:34:42:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And the number one thing that we had that emerged from those conversations is that the thing that was absolutely most important is paid leave, securing that paid leave and and also tactically what we are materially capable of. I understand that theoretically we in talking about the strike, like I understand why someone would have that position, but we need to be honest about ourselves, honest with ourselves about what something like a wildcat strike takes and is.
00:34:43:06 - 00:35:04:02
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Are we ready for that? Are the seeds sown for that? Sometimes they are. We've seen that with the teachers unions and what happened in West Virginia and what's happened in Los Angeles. But sometimes a workforce may not be prepared for that. And if they and if a movement isn't, then we have to decide what other tactics we're going to use.
00:35:04:21 - 00:35:39:23
David Sirota
I want to turn to just a couple of issues real quick. Health care. It seems to have completely fallen off the Democratic Party's agenda. And this is our readers are very interested in this as President Joe Biden literally hasn't even mentioned the public option that he promised during the campaign. Health care crisis is getting worse, and it seems like the best that the the sort of Democratic Party can agree on is to promise to throw more money at health insurance companies through the ACA exchanges, while also the Biden administration is continuing to privatize Medicare through Medicare Advantage.
00:35:40:09 - 00:36:04:00
David Sirota
All of this is only a few years after Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign seemed to galvanize is the real prospect for a medicare for all push. So the question is why do you believe the Medicare for All push seems to at least right now, seems to have stalled? And why does it feel like health care isn't even really an issue for the Democratic Party right now?
00:36:04:11 - 00:36:42:18
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Yeah, I mean, I do think that I I do think that the power of the insurance lobby is so incredibly powerful. You know, if I had to think about, like, the top, it would probably be fossil fuels potentially. But pharma and insurance is way up there. And and I also believe that big Pharma and also the insurance companies have a broader number of members that can be influenced by that.
00:36:43:10 - 00:37:11:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
With big oil, it's it's predominantly Republicans and then a chunk of certain Democrats. But with insurance it's I think it's much more broad across both parties. And so I think there's a couple of things. I think that when Bernie ran on Medicare for All in 2016, it created an enormous amount of electoral fervor that led a lot of members to co-sponsor Medicare for All.
00:37:11:16 - 00:37:41:12
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But I, I do believe that when push comes shove and the number of people that are willing to really fight for Medicare for All is probably less than the number of co-sponsors on that bill. And frankly, even if we had a floor vote on it because of the lack of prospects in the Senate, I also think there would be a lot of disingenuous votes for it when people know that it's going to a graveyard.
00:37:41:21 - 00:38:22:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so I do believe that we are approaching an interesting political window. We just saw an unprecedented and generational shift once in a generation shift at least once in the last generation in leadership of the Democratic Party, particularly in the House. And I think it was pretty well known that where Pelosi's position on this was, she she, I believe, has a very strong record about trying to strengthen the ACA, but also through expanding those what ultimately is the subsidies to insurance.
00:38:23:03 - 00:39:04:10
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so so the question for us is, I think going back and and putting that pressure, whether it's through primaries or whether it's through putting that pressure on every member of the Democratic caucus to go on record on Medicare for all, that, I think is where we are at. I, I also agree. I you know, I some I think that this is an issue where perhaps in among among many elected Democrats, they just think it's too pie in the sky right now.
00:39:04:10 - 00:39:28:11
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I also think that that a lot of this has to do with the Senate filibuster. Like, there are so many things that people take positions on, but they don't really put energy into because as long as the filibuster exists, it's this idea of if we can't even get basic gun safety passed, a filibuster, what can we even do for universal health care?
00:39:28:12 - 00:39:53:19
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so I actually do think that providing and mounting a really strong fight to dismantle the filibuster in the Senate is the only it has to be a precursor to any fight for universal health care and for guaranteed health care. Now, I don't think that it's this or that. I think we need to be building both of these things at the same time.
00:39:54:10 - 00:40:20:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But we also need to be real about the actual tactical reality of how we make it happen. And we can't make anything happen unless it can either surpass unless we can elect ten more Democrats to the Senate or dismantle the filibuster and ten more Medicare for all and keep the entire caucus like that, to me, seems far less realistic than actually pressuring the party to dismantle the filibuster.
00:40:21:21 - 00:40:43:06
David Sirota
Let's let's turn to to climate. I mean, it's it's scientists are warning that climate change poses an existential threat for all life on earth, telling us we got to halt all new fossil fuel development. And in response, Congress did the Inflation Reduction Act, which includes both lots of subsidies for green energy, but also a big potential to expand fossil fuel development.
00:40:43:06 - 00:41:03:10
David Sirota
And as we discussed, the Biden administration just approved this Willow project in Alaska. Looking back on the last two years, on the whole, has the Democratic Party helped the fight against climate change or has it made the problem worse and has it taken it the problem here as seriously enough as it deserves to be taken?
00:41:04:23 - 00:41:37:01
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
So I think when it comes to climate, I, I want to I think I want to kind of talk about where we are with this question about the party overall. I'm not I'm a I'm a major critic of the party. MERCADO And and so like I, I can speak to I think the Biden administration has and has been very disappointing on climate.
00:41:37:03 - 00:42:04:08
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We have seen both in the first 25 months of the Trump presidency versus the first 25 months of the Biden presidency. Biden has authorized more fossil fuel permits. And I believe that approach projects. And so, you know, even just in the in the brass tacks of it, this is this is a serious issue. And the Biden and the Biden administration, I think, is is failing on also with immigration as well.
00:42:04:09 - 00:42:38:14
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But that's a separate conversation. However, the it's it's this duality of multiple things being true at the same time. The IRA, the Inflation reduction Act and the climate provisions in it is it is both the biggest action in American history with these substantive and really structural shifts that will, I believe, unlock significant developments on climate, clean energy and other types of infrastructure.
00:42:39:00 - 00:43:03:10
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But we are also, you know, compared to the science of the situation, it is both the biggest thing we've ever done and also still not enough. But that being said, I don't think that this fight is going to happen in one fell swoop, in one piece of legislation. And I think it's going to take, say, several major knockout victories, but we have accomplished one of them.
00:43:04:06 - 00:43:41:00
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I do think that that we're going to see a lot of the benefits of that. But this is an infrastructure investment which takes time to build that out and create those jobs. Now, that being said, I think the Biden administration deserves very much so criticism on their authorization of fossil fuel projects like the Willow Project. And but ultimately, I do think that in between this and it also very much ties to the geopolitical decisions that we have to make.
00:43:41:04 - 00:44:16:12
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
So much of it revolves around fossil fuels, scarcity and energy. Energy policy globally. I was just in Japan last month, and so many of the geopolitical decisions that these countries have to make has to do with their energy supply and have to do with the realities that they need to contend with. And if we do not lead on this on a on accelerating a shift to renewables, we're you know, we're going to be we are going to contend with with some major issues domestically and internationally.
00:44:17:05 - 00:44:52:17
David Sirota
Okay. I've got two more questions for you. The first of the of the last two questions I want to briefly go to the Trump impeachment. Democrats seem very excited about the indictment of I said Trump impeachment indictment. Well, they seem very excited about the indictment of Donald Trump. There's some folks who are concerned that allowing this indictment to go forward kind of creates a situation where we create a precedent, where people's political enemies, once they take power, will then indict past presidents.
00:44:53:03 - 00:45:10:08
David Sirota
I'm Curious where you come down on that. And I want to I want to the way I'm kind of trying to think through this, some questions that come to mind, like should George W Bush be indicted for the war crimes in Iraq? Should Barack Obama be indicted for creating an extralegal kill list that targeted and murdered American citizens?
00:45:10:08 - 00:45:17:20
David Sirota
Should Bill Clinton be criminally investigated over his with Jeffrey Epstein? Like, where do you come down in thinking about all of that?
00:45:18:20 - 00:45:47:19
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Well, you know, if the conversation is about precedent, it is important to look at the details of the situation. Donald Trump was indicted in New York for a for New York violations of New York, violations of New York business law. And these were crimes that are alleged to have occurred in and and around the state of New York.
00:45:48:02 - 00:46:12:20
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
And so, like, when we're actually looking at the details of the situation and the president the situation and not only that, but there were also many counts of it. Right. And so, you know, I just I think that I believe that a lack of due process when there is just like flagrant evidence that this person did this thing, we are talking about due process.
00:46:12:20 - 00:46:40:01
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We are talking about prosecutorial standards. We it's not a political debate. Right. This is about gaining evidence if an event occurred or not, that that clearly violated statute. And I think that regardless of party, if someone is covering up hush and we and we have seen this, we have seen both Democrats and Republicans go to jail, you know, we've seen government.
00:46:40:01 - 00:47:17:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
We've seen this happen to governors. We have seen this happen in in many instances in cases. And so, you know, when it comes to to some of these other allegations also becomes a question of jurisdiction. Right. I think there's a reason why why these charges did not come from the DOJ, and that is because I believe that the DOJ, it does have and very heavily weigh the those types of considerations and what the implications are, and no less, because they are part of a of a federal and executive administration.
00:47:17:05 - 00:47:46:01
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Right. And and as much as we you know, discuss independence and I think in an optimal system, that independence should exist at the end of the day. Are there are implications, as you mentioned, to doing that. And so, you know, I think we have seen the DOJ never really act on anything in that respect because that that bar on federal charges is so high and so precedent setting.
00:47:46:12 - 00:48:10:05
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
But, you know, that is also to say, you know, Trump is also you know, there are an ongoing investigations in the state of Georgia regarding Georgia law and in other places. And so I think that I mean, listen, if if there are if there is clear evidence for a crime, is there is there is that precedent there, I do believe that the bar should be high.
00:48:10:05 - 00:48:41:12
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I don't think that we should be, you know, knee jerk pursuing we should not be pursuing political a political agenda on this. But that also doesn't equate to immunity either. And where that line is drawn is a delicate one. But I do think that in the case of Donald Trump, it was just it is I mean, we're talking about a guy who incited a terrorist attack on the U.S. Capitol and has to date experienced no consequences for it.
00:48:41:12 - 00:48:43:06
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I think that the bar has been met.
00:48:44:15 - 00:49:19:12
David Sirota
Okay. Final question for you comes. Okay, this is where the free version of our podcast ends. But for our paid subscribers, you also get our bonus segment, which is the rest of this interview with AOC. Specifically the part of the interview where she gives us an inside look at exactly how powerful money is in Congress. She takes us inside the halls of power to explain how big money operates on a granular day to day level in Washington and how it affects lawmakers on a deep psychological level.
00:49:19:12 - 00:49:39:23
David Sirota
If you're a paying subscriber, you have that bonus segment in your premium feed right now. If you are not yet a paying subscriber and you want to hear that bonus segment, all of our bonus segments go become a subscriber at Lever News.com that gives you access to our premium podcast feed. So that's it for today's one last favor.
00:49:39:23 - 00:50:00:05
David Sirota
Please be sure to like, subscribe and write a review for lever time on your favorite podcast app and make sure to head over to Lever News.com and check out all of the terrific reporting our team has been doing. Until next time. I'm David Sirota. Rock the Boat. The Leisure Time podcast is a production of the Lever and the Lever Podcast Network.
00:50:00:17 - 00:53:44:02
David Sirota
It's hosted by me, David Sirota. Our lead producer is Jared Jacang Maher, and our editor is Denis Goldman. You can find all of our past episodes at Lever Time Podcast or on all of the major podcast players along.