Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
Welcome everyone to the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Cody Burrough, and today I am joined by Chris Bruno.
Chris Bruno
Hey Cody, good to be back with you. It's good. It's so good.
Cody Buriff
To you.
And I'm just gonna say this for the audience sake. Just normally we do these where I'm on a separate screen and we're like, I'm in Indiana and Chris is in Colorado or Jesse or whatever. But today we're in the same room. We're actually sitting on the same couch. So we're not definitely not snuggling. Maybe later. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
But today
We're snuggling.
Cody Buriff
man. now today, guys, we're gonna be talking about something, Chris. I don't know if you know this yet, but people who know me really well know that this is actually this is kind of a soapbox like pet peeve of mine. That
Chris Bruno
I can tell by your body language that you're a little activated right now.
Cody Buriff
Have some
energy. Yeah. I'm I'm coming in a little hot. Not angry, but like energized. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about accountability. And we'll probably title this thing like something like accountability sucks. And I probably worth clarifying. Like, we don't actually think accountability sucks. It's probably the way that we have come to understand as a culture, as a Christian culture, subculture, have come to understand the idea of accountability. I would argue is really dumb.
Chris Bruno
So so there we are. Start
there. Put your cards on the Cody. All right. So with that introduction, you know, here you are coming in hot and this is a soapbox pet peeve of yours. Tell us why.
Cody Buriff
Say what I don't
What
man.
Well, I think the way that our Christian culture typically generally around, you know, in my lifetime has understood the idea of accountability has probably actually been more damaging than helpful. Mm-hmm. Has been more hurtful than kind. And has not actually led to actual repentance for a a life, you know, aliveness. It's actually pushed people farther into death and farther into their sin and hiding and shame and
So there's some maybe I do have some anger around that. I guess let me let me maybe just say and define like as I would understand it. Like this is what I've seen and understood. This is what people typically think of is accountability partners or relationships or groups. You show up maybe like once a week or every other week or whatever. And what do you do? You like Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Share what you did wrong.
Cody Buriff
You sit around, you go around a circle, you share, okay, these are all my sins. This is this, you know, it's like confession. I've never been Catholic, so I don't know exactly what happens in confessional booths, but it's I imagine it kind of like that. Like, here's all the ways that I screwed up this week. And usually it's around sexual sin or something like that. You know, typically is the context. And and what's the response?
Chris Bruno
Well, there's some kind of penance usually. Well there's some kind of like well then you have to do fifty burpees or you have to, you know, pay five dollars into the pot or you know, something like
Cody Buriff
Like
potentially, yeah. I in fact there was a group man.
Chris Bruno
Okay, we just opened up a
Cody Buriff
I was not in this group, but I I heard about it. Where basically what they said was like, Okay, if you screw up, if you fail in this area, like you have to shave an eyebrow. Right? Okay. You have to shave an eyebrow. Like that's ridiculous. So what do you imagine happens in that scenario?
Chris Bruno
I'm sure everyone is most honest about what they've done. They bring all of their sins and lay them before their brothers in this group and tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nobody does that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Everybody's walking around eyebrowless. No, nobody does that.
Exactly. Yeah. So either you're frankly, you're lying, which generally speaking is the case, or you're like white knuckling the crap out of it. Right. And that's not helpful, actually. Yeah. And even if there isn't some kind of penance, like then the response is like, Okay, man, I'll pray for you and sorry, that's you know, stop doing that thing. That's just not helpful.
Chris Bruno
Why is that not helpful?
Cody Buriff
Because it's not actually getting to actual issue. And so I'll launch for a second. I think in many ways we and I it's generally we Christians, whatever, like have reduced our Christianity, our faith, into a behavior modification faith, a sin management faith. And we've come to understand sin as behaviorally oriented. It's what you do or don't do.
Or say or don't say, or even sometimes think or don't think. And I'm not gonna like I wouldn't say that our sinful actions are unholy, but it's actually in the same way that like a sore throat is unhealthy. I think that's a helpful analogy is like your sinful behavior is unholy in the same way that a sore throat is unhealthy. And such that, like, okay, the sore throat, nobody likes a sore throat. It's not good. You're not condoning it.
Chris Bruno
Mm-hmm.
Cody Buriff
But it's actually not the problem. If all you treat is a sore throat, you're not treating what's actually wrong with your body.
Chris Bruno
Right. The sore throat is just a symptom of a deeper dis ease that is happening in your body.
Cody Buriff
Single. Right. Single.
Chris Bruno
Deeper sickness.
Cody Buriff
And so if all we're doing is treating the symptoms, the behaviors, and we're not managing what's actually going on, I think we have a really poor definition of sin. Mm-hmm.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Several months ago I did a presentation to a group of people in ministry pastors and campus ministers and and such and and the topic that I was talking about was sexuality after purity culture. So it was a very interesting conversation and it was great to kind of lead this and see what people had to say about that. Now, accountability is not always only about sexual sin. Right. Okay.
Cody Buriff
Okay.
Chris Bruno
But it was, I think it was highly popularized with regard to sexual sin. And I think if you go to a men's group or a men's breakfast or a men's something, there is usually some accountability conversation that is happening there amongst the guys. Right. And usually that's gonna happen around something sexual. So I think it's not always the case, but popularized by that. I bring up this conversation with these pastors and ministers.
Cody Buriff
Yep.
Chris Bruno
Because one of the things that I said, and I believe it's true, is that purity culture and pornography are secret allies to the destruction of male sexuality. Okay. Purity culture and pornography have been kind of secret allies in the destruction of male sexuality. Because on one level, you have this increase of sexual material.
Cody Buriff
Well say that again.
Chris Bruno
Mm-hmm. That is more and more and more readily available combined with an increase in the exposure of the diminishment of the lockdown of sexuality as well. So you've got the lockdown of sexuality and you have the availability of increasing availability of unhealthy sexuality. So those two things combined, I think, invite a deeper level of shame.
Yeah. Which is the result then of the accountability groups because it's saying, Hey, there's all this sexual stuff that is available and all the sexual stuff that you shouldn't be doing and therefore let's talk about all the sexual stuff that we've done or not done and hold each other accountable.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
And that shame I think is what is ultimately what gets you going because it's you end up showing up in shame to the group and therefore you lie and then you white knuckle it and therefore it just becomes the snowball. And then it's you stop going to the or you lose your eyebrows. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Eventually you stop going to the group.
And it's not helpful. Like it is not actually helpful for most people.
Chris Bruno
Right. I feel like it's probably, you know, confess your sins to your brothers, you know, that kind of thing. There is something about what the scriptures are advocating for, right? And go ahead and read that. You just pulled that up.
Cody Buriff
Yeah,
so James five, sixteen. So this is in a section of James, the very last some of the last things he's saying. And it's in a section on prayer, first of all. And he's talking about he says, Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. Mm-hmm. You know, and it throughout this whole little couple of verses are surrounding it, he's talking about prayer and the power of prayer. So it's not primarily around confession, but it's there. Like confess your sins to each other and pray for each other.
Chris Bruno
And so that what will happen? So that the healing will happen, not just of the sore throat, but of the disease that is beneath it. Yes. Right? Yes. And so I think that's where accountability falls so, so short.
Cody Buriff
You may be healed.
So I wonder, Chris, like it says confess your sins. And if we're saying behavior is not primary, if I'm saying that, I don't know if you put words in your mouth. Behaviors are not the primary issue, they are symptoms. So what then would be primary issue sin? Mm-hmm. In that sense.
Chris Bruno
This is a big statement I'm about to make. So let's play with it and see how it holds up. I I would start to wonder if sin is any place where we experience disconnection from God, ourselves, and others. And that if we go all the way back to the Garden of Eden and where sin first entered the world, it is the scissors that cut the connection rope between God and man and
God and woman and woman and man and like the relationships. So sin, sin is the problem that has divided us. And so I wonder if what James is saying here is confess the places where your heart has not been true to itself and not been true to who you know yourself to be as a child of God, or where you have experienced something that has distanced you or created disconnection between you and another human.
Another image bearer of God. Right. And so to confess those places where that disease is happening inside your soul so that you may be healed and back to a place of connection. Mm-hmm.
Cody Buriff
Going in my head right now is like, I don't Chris, I need to confess that I went to an accountability group that cause disconnection. yeah. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I I I've been thinking about this a little bit. So I'll say basically the same thing in a different way, maybe. Go for it. I'm starting to wonder if sin ultimately is a dissonance and disagreement with the voice of God.
Chris Bruno
Mm-hmm. About who he is. Love it, yes.
Cody Buriff
He is and about who I am.
And that is actually what sin is. And everything that flows out of that is sinful behavior. Mm-hmm. That disagreement with him.
Chris Bruno
Right. I love that. 'Cause that is, is God really who he says he is? Mm-hmm. And are you really who he says you are? Yes. And so that disagreement is I love that. Yeah. That you're no longer in alignment with God.
Cody Buriff
So that's my wondering is like, okay, it says confess your sins. Like, that's kind of a command, right? And we talk about accountability, and typically accountability is holding each other to account for each other's sinfulness. Mm-hmm. And
Chris Bruno
Okay, can just pause here for a second? Yeah. Cause even just you just used the word account. huh. And as I was thinking about this, like we're talking financial ledgers.
Cody Buriff
You
just got off the phone with an accountant. I did get it ten minutes ago.
Chris Bruno
Yes. And they're making sure that the books are balanced. And when the books are not balanced, that means that there is either an overage or an underage that it's not meeting the it's not balanced. That there is a debit or a credit or a like some kind of it's not equaling. It doesn't equal out. Yeah. And so to hold you accountable or you to hold me accountable or us on another, it means that I am naming your debts.
And then somehow you have to pay for your debts to rebalance your books, which is where you sacrifice an eyebrow, or you put five dollars in the pot, or you you feel bad, or you have some level of guilt, you know, you
Cody Buriff
Gotta do
Chris Bruno
Whatever
it is, you gotta rebalance your own account instead of some level of like, I need to confess where I have been dissonant with, disagreed with what God says about Himself or me. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Okay, so your word nerd. If you've established that in the past, so I'm gonna ask you a question to put you on the spot. So you talked about account and accountability in a financial context, is a helpful analogy. What does it mean to give an account of something? In that sense.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Mm.
Give an account. yeah, I feel like to give an account is to tell the truth of what is or what isn't. And one of the things I want to also say when we're talking about accounts and we're talking about balancing the books, there's also this sense of we're entering the realm of legal arguments, truth not truth, right or wrong. And I feel like evil loves the courtroom.
Evil loves the courtroom because in the courtroom there is judgment and condemnation and punishments meted out and sentences delivered. Evil loves the courtroom. And so if we can have accountability, we're automatically in a courtroom. So to give an account is to tell the truth about what it is, right? And find out whether it is lacking or not lacking.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Hmm.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Truthful or not truthful.
Cody Buriff
Here's my wondering. All right. Like I've heard account used in this context of like, I gave an account of what happened. You know, you're sharing kind of the story of what happened or what is or whatever. I'm wondering if accountability, rather than being me giving you an account of my sin, my sinful behaviors in particular, not that we don't do that at all, like I we need to be honest in sharing. Like, hey, these are some ways that I'm living out this lie that I'm believing, you know, and the ways that I'm disagreeing with.
Voice of God. But I think what's most needed in that moment, maybe, is you giving me an account. Yes. Of what's true. Exactly. Exactly. Remind me of who I actually am and who God actually is.
Chris Bruno
About you.
Is. Yeah. And that's the piece of accountability that I think is if it's rather than a statement of where you are wrong that you're giving to me, it's a statement of where you are, who you are, that's coming from me to you. It is the brother inside of me being with the glorious man of God that you are. And where the places that you have forgotten about that, I am reminding you of that.
I am drawing you back to that. I am inviting you back to the full memory of agreement with God in who he says you are. That is accountability that I will I can get on board with. Yeah. Right. I'm gonna hold you accountable to who you are, not to who you're afraid you are.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Heck yeah.
Okay. Yeah. It's good. It feels like there's this dynamic, this difference between a Christianity behavior modification and sin management versus I'm trying to even wrap words around.
Chris Bruno
Identity. Yeah.
Who you are as a son. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
I like the yeah, identity feels like the right word. Mm-hmm. Identity of who God is and who I am. Mm-hmm.
Chris Bruno
And that's back to what I was saying about pornography and purity culture is that what shame is doing, is wanting to do, is it's always wanting to divide, it's always wanting to isolate, it's always wanting to strip you of the identity of the glory of God written into your life and who you are as a son of God. It's wanting to strip your identity, it's want to silence your voice, and it wants to break your belonging. Okay.
And that's what shame is and what accountability then reinforces is that, well, you messed up five times this week and so you don't belong to this group anymore because we're the ones that didn't and you did. So there's the breaking of belonging, there's the shame, there's the all that. Like what if accountability was to reinforce the glory of God inside of you rather than to reinforce the failure inside of you?
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah, instead of saying, Hey, you're a screw up. It's like actually you are wonderful. Yes. And you've kind of forgotten.
Chris Bruno
And you just forgot. Yeah. And so let's pray for your healing. Yes. Not of your behavior, but of your forgetfulness.
Cody Buriff
Let's address the actual sickness that's happening right here. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
And at the same time, we do need to have a level of vulnerability to go like, man, I just really messed up. And I need somebody to know. Yeah. I need somebody to know that. But the invitation for you to be with me is not to reinforce the level of my failure. It's to reinforce the level of like and remind me who I am. Yeah. I am not who what I've done.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. So right now, like bigger picture, stuff zooming out a little bit. We're kind of in a series where we're talking about brotherhood a lot. Yep. And and so obviously like accountability happens in the context of brotherhood and or it should be happening in the context of brotherhood. And when I say accountability, I'm talking about the kind of we're talking about the one yeah. if it's the other kind, it's probably not brotherhood. Because brotherhood is the space of being known.
By other men. Your story is known and who you actually are, who God says you are, is leaked out enough in how you've engaged and other men are able to see that in you better than you're probably able to see yourself and can show you that and remind you of that. That's what brotherhood is, like ultimately.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. And when we come into the spaces of brotherhood, it is, it is, let me remind you. Mm-hmm. Let me remind you. Mm-hmm. Which requires, and you just said, you know, knowing your story. And and the thing is, is that knowing not only the story of what you survived, but the story that was older than that before you even had to survive, the story that God is telling about you. So that is that is brotherhood. And that is that is actual true accountability.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Which has gotten so screwed up. And so gentlemen, if you are in a an accountability group, if you're walking around with one eyebrow
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
For sure. And that's probably the invitation. Is you know, I don't know how many guys are actually in accountability groups at this point.
Chris Bruno
Well, and and the thing is is that probably because of what has happened in the world with accountability and how much gas got thrown onto the shame fire in our lives in the past, we now avoid them and don't hold each other accountable in the way that we just talked about. Right. Because of how painful it was and how shameful it was. And the reality is it should actually be one of the most life giving places for you. Right? Yeah. And so
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Like what would it look like for men to be in spaces like that?
Cody Buriff
Yeah. That's fascinating to like draw the connection. I I'm just even for myself right now of like, okay, some of the purity culture stuff, you know, and how that impacted the idea of confessing sins to one another and how that actually led to an isolation, not a connection. Mm-hmm. It's interesting to see how that impacted our culture in that way particularly.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, and that isolation just spurred the behavior even more. Yep. Absolutely. Now it's not out there with your brothers, now it's in private and secret. Which always makes it worse. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Right. Absolutely.
Yep. So makes it worse. Yeah.
All right. So Chris, if there's somebody who's listening who they've heard all this, but then we're like, hang on a second. Like, you want people to remind me of what is true of me and my like the actual older story that you talked about. Like for that guy, what is the older story? Obviously, he's got a more particular like everybody has their own particularity in that, but like, what is the older story?
Chris Bruno
Mm-hmm. Me, the older story is the story about you that existed in the mind of God before you existed. It is the story of who he thought you up to be. He imagined you to be. He decided that this is how he was going to create you long before the beginning of the world. And then
Through the course of history, he orchestrated all of history for then you to come to be and exist, right? And be born into the world. But the story that he thought you up to be has never ceased to be your actual story. Because whatever he decided became. And that is still true about you, even though the world trauma, tragedy, survival.
You know, whatever it might be, and it might not be like super big traumas. It might just be living in a fallen and broken world, right, amongst fallen and broken people. Those things that have happened to you have not done anything to destroy that original imagination of who God made you to be. Yeah. And we often have such a hard time finding, knowing, understanding we can't see that story often in our own selves because we're living inside of.
The broken fallen world that we're in. And we need brothers to wonder about that and to imagine and join God's imagination again on our behalf in order to name some of those things. Yeah. That's the deeper story. And most of the time it comes through sitting and telling stories. I think about the world millennia that men have sat around campfires and living rooms and pubs and whatever it might be.
just telling stories of their lives and having other men wonder with them where God was and what he wrote into who you are versus the things that you're trying to confess. Right. Yeah. Totally.
Cody Buriff
Totally. No, that's good. And I and I wonder too, like, as men who are trying to hunt down the story of other men to remind them of, like, I remember hearing, I don't know if it's from you or other probably lots of places I've heard it at this point, but like that true story, that thing that is most true of your identity, who you are, is also the thing that was probably most attacked. And so all you gotta do is look for where was the attack.
Chris Bruno
yeah.
Right.
Cody Buriff
And then you can connect the dots back to okay, if that's where the attack was, then probably this is actually the thing that's most true of you. You know.
Chris Bruno
Right. Exactly. Yeah,
I call those HVTs high value targets. If the enemy is coming after something inside of you and and the enemy has limited resources and needs to be both efficient and effective, he's gonna go after the thing that is the most God reflecting part of who you are, the high value target inside of you, which is gonna be similar but different inside of me. Yeah. Right.
And it's gonna look in the he's gonna go after the particular spots and ways and God reflecting ways that you are. That is a great clue. Were you silenced? Was your strength challenged? were you disconnected and diminished? Was there something that was was your sexuality attacked? Like what is it about your masculinity? What was it about you that seems most attacked in your life? Good clue that when you start to kind of go to the headwaters, what where the enemy was going. That's
actually where you reflect the glory of God most. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
So as we're engaging in the lives of other men, as we are trying to give them an account of who God is and who they are, those are some clues that might leak out. Yeah. as we hear their stories and and maybe even just as we engage and interact with them. So we hang out with them. It it leaks out. Yeah. But they can't see it. Yeah. Just the same way I can't see, you know, well it's leaking out at me. Yeah. You know.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Well, we certainly get glimpses of it when we spend enough time and are attentive enough to look for them. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Good. Okay.
Chris Bruno
How are you calmed down a little bit now? I'm still hot and bothered.
Cody Buriff
Hun bother is not the right word, but I'm I'm I have good energy. I'm like, dang it, let's go freaking change the world. Why everybody do this? Whatever. good good conversation, Chris. I think I could be with you. If I had to guess, this will be really helpful for a lot of guys.
Chris Bruno
that's good.
I hope so. Well, it's helpful for me too.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, same. Yeah. So guys, thanks for listening. As I recall, we're doing a Texter Brother challenge. That's gonna be in the Growth Collective. You're gonna see that pop up every week. There's gonna be a prompt that shows up to just try to connect with other men in small but significant ways. Mm-hmm. And so wanna encourage you to check that out. You can find out more details. If you go to growthcollective dot net, you should be able to see that there and you'll find this podcast there for that matter. So Chris, thanks for showing up. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Good to be here.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. It's gonna be with you guys. All right. Take care. See you later.